thanks for spending time with us. sometimes people ask me what's the best way to get ahold of me. is it 6:00 p.m. on tv? that's the first way. the second on the phone, go to arimelber.com and type in your email to get my free newsletter or@arimelber on socials. we'll be here tomorrow on your tv at 6:00 p.m. eastern. as for right now, keep it locked because "the reidout" with joy reid starts now.

tonight on "the reidout" -- >> are you aware of any members of congress seeking pardons? >> mr. gaetz and mr. brooks. mr. gohmert asked for one as well. mr. perry asked for a pardon, too, i'm sorry. >> mr. perry, did he speak to you directly? >> yes, scott perry did ask for a pardon and new reporting sheds new light on why he would have wanted one. his text messages following the 2020 election reveal the integral role he played in trump's plot to overturn joe biden's victory. also tonight, the koch network goes all in for nikki haley. apparently, they see her as a mainstream alternative to trump, but history suggests she's very much a radical right winger in sheep's clothing. but we begin tonight with

what has become a new pattern in donald trump's pitiful defenses for his many, many, many, many legal woes. it is no longer enough to attack judges or prosecutors. which as we have all seen and heard, trump clearly has no problem doing. but now, he's shown how small a man he really is by choosing to go on the attack against their spouses. family members, and staff. which has been shown to lead to ongoing harassment and threats by trump's faithful followers. just this year, we have seen trump go on the attack against the wife and family of judge juan murshaun, who is overseeing the manhattan case tied to trump's hush money payments to adult film star stormy daniels. >> i have a trump hating judge with a trump hating wife and family. whose daughter worked for kamala harris and now receives money from the biden/harris campaign and a lot of it. >> he has done the same against the wife and family of special

counsel jack smith. >> openly he's a trump hater. and his wife is even more of a trump hater. i wish her a lot of luck, but he's a bad trump hater and she's a trump hater. >> he's a raging and uncontrolled trump hater. as is his wife. >> the trump hating prosecutor in the case, he's -- his wife and family despise me much more than he does, and he -- i think he's about a ten, they're about a 15 on a scale of 10. >> and just yesterday, trump began levying the same attacks against the wife of judge arthur engoron, who is overseeing his new york civil fraud trial, including claiming that she and the judge's law clerk, who trump has also made the focus of his ire, are the ones controlling the new york trial. mind you, trump's attacks are based on tweets he claims are from the judge's wife. she told newsweek not only are the tweets not hers but that she does not even have a twitter

account. in a positive move today, a new york court of appeals has reinstated a gag order against trump in that case again, prohibiting him from making any comments about anyone on judge engoron's staff. you may recall that the judge originally announced the gag order after trump made his first attack against engoron's law clerk, to reporters right outside the courtroom. judge engoron responded to today's ruling warning trump's attorneys in court that he intends to rigorously and vigorously enforce it. he did not make any mention of trump's attacks on his wife, who at this time would not be covered under the present gag order. and this comes as we are still awaiting a ruling on the fate of the gag order in the federal election case, which has a larger scope, prohibiting trump from attacking potential witnesses, court employees, prosecutors, and yes, their families too. joining me now is lisa reuben, msnbc legal analyst and dave aronberg, state attorney for palm beach county, florida. thank you both for being here. i want to quickly read your

chris kise, his attorney's statement. tragic day for the rule of law in a country where the first amendment is sacrosanct, president trump, he's not president, can't even comment on why he believes he can't get a fair trial. hard to imagine this is happening in america. what is really hard to imagine is trump actually believes he is quote/unquote not getting a fair trial because of the judge's wife. and yet, was there any explanation as to why the gag order was not only reinstated but not expanded to include the families of the people involved? >> well, joy, generally wouldn't be the place of an appellate court to expand a gag order or rewrite it in that way. in terms of why judge engoron has not written a new gag order to cover his wife, i can't say. but i think the explanation in the gag order wasn't much of an explanation at all, just said

having read the papers that had been filed by all three of the interested parties, that's former president trump and his lawyers, the new york attorney general, letitia james and her team, and judge engoron himself as represented by the court system, the four judges in the appellate division in new york who heard this motion decided not only were they going to vacate the interim stay, but they were going to deny trump's motion for a longer term stay while his lawsuit against judge engoron for having imposed the gag order in the first place, which he continues to insist is unconstitutional, remains pending. for the duration of the trial, donald trump and his lawyers will remain subject to this gag order because the pending appeal or petition will not be resolved in time for the trial to end. it will end on january 11th with closing arguments. >> you know, dave, donald trump

is a thug. i mean, that is just clear. he's been a thug from the time he ran for office, getting his crowds to attack protesters inside of the actual, you know, events. and he's now unleashed these attacks on people who aren't even connected to the case, just married at someone he's mad at. this is the result, nbc has a headline about that. they were detailed in this new court filing. his initial truth post that prompted the gag order resulted in hundreds of threatening and harassing voice mail messages that have been transcribed into over 275 single spaced pages, last week, we learned that the wife of this judge received -- i'm sorry, the clerk receives 20 to 30 calls a day to her personal cell phone, and 30 to 50 messages a day on social media and personal email combined. we know what the results and the threats are to the people that

trump is harassing. what possible enforcement threats can be made against him? because he is a former president running for president. >> joy, i'm a little disappointed at the lack of enforcement. of all his cases, only two judges, excuse me, only one judge has enforced the gag order, judge engoron. there are two gag orders on the book, and judge engoron enforced it twice for a total of $15,000. that's not a lot for a self professed billionaire, when his supporters claim it's a two-tiered justice system, maybe they're right but not in the way they're thinking. donald trump is treated differently than any other criminal defendant i know of. if someone lashed out at the judge, the judge's family, attorneys, they would have been sanctioned long ago, perhaps even wearing an orange jumpsuit, as of now, all we have seen is $15,000 in fines. judge engoron said he's going to enforce this gag order

rigorously, but this gag order is already limited. it only affects the judge's staff, no one else. >> lisa, this is the problem. the impact potentially on the people trump is attacking is potential injury or worse, because donald trump leads what is a cult that includes violence, known violence, violence we have seen, violence we have seen on tape, violence we have seen people arrested for. his people, his base will threaten to kill anyone who they think doesn't like trump, is a trump hater. we have seen it. so essentially, the risks to the people he's attacking are huge. they are literally life and death. the risks to him, to dave's point, are like a $15,000 fine. has there been any indication those risks are going to be ratcheted up in some way that will make an impact on this person? >> interesting that you ask that, joy, because judge engoron obviously today when he learned about the reinstatement of the

gag order, he told all those assembled in his courtroom that it had been done. he affirmed that he intends to enforce it rigorously and vigorously. and when he fined donald trump previously, he made clear that in addition to fines, he was prepared to ratchet it up beyond that, including and up to imprisonment. whether or not the next violation will get to that point remains to be seen. it also remains to be seen whether trump, who now will have to understand he'll live with this gag order throughout the duration of the trial, will provoke judge engoron to face that decision. there's a part of me that thinks he wants to, because it is a fund-raising juggernaut for him, and nothing galvanizes trump supporters like grievance. trump used to put himself up on a pedestal, and project this atmosphere of you want to be like me. now, he's brought himself back down and said to his supporters, i am you. and that identification with

him, while bringing trump down to earth in a way, also fuels this atmosphere of violence and hatred, because they believe that he is their retribution, as he keeps telling them. goes to jail.be scared if he bullies are usually cowards. dave, there's abc news reporting on the other, one of his many other cases. this is the one where he stole classified documents and took them home to his ballroom and put them in the bathroom. apaurnltly one of his lawye who is still his lawyer in another case, jennifer little, has told the special counsel's team she told donald trump if he did not comply with the demand to turn over classified documents, it would be a crime. she said donald trump absolutely understood what she said. this came before trump told his aides to remove dozens of boxes and hide them from his lawyer

before he went down to do this search. give us the implications of that. one of his own lawyers say she told him straight up, it's a crime if you don't give the documents back or give the stuff back after your lawyer has certified you have. >> joy, it goes to trump's state of mind, which is a required element when you're dealing with obstruction and the espionage act about willful retention. here we have another lawyer who informed trump that he had to give back the documents. he was put on notice, so when trump says, well, the presidential records act protects me y knew i didn't have to give it back. no, your lawyer is contradicting you, and the other lawyer, evan corcoran, has contemporaneous notes that jack smith has, so they corroborate each other, and it's damning when your own lawyers are the best witnesses against you. and that's why this mar-a-lago documents case is the strongest case against trump of all the cases and also because judge cannon has been slow walking the case, the least likely to be tried before the election. >> yep. she's been helping him out a

whole lot. going to leave it there. lisa reuben, dave aronberg, thank you both very much. up next on "the reidout," it's tempting to look at the maga wing of congress and write it off as a clown show, but behind the funny makeup, oversized shoes and squeaky red noses there's a real threat to american democracy, and the rights that many of us now take for granted. congressman adam schiff joins me when "the reidout" continues. with an array of active ingredients... and sizes to relieve your pain. salonpas. it's good medicine. honey, i think i heard something. ok. ♪ from christmas tree mats... to floorliners... cargo liners.... no drill mud flaps... seat protectors... and more... weathertech has the perfect holiday gift. honey, is everything ok? oh yeah.

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. in their latest attempt to show that they are both dangerous and a total farce, house republicans are moving full speed ahead with their effort to impeach president biden with absolutely no evidence, they'll meet tomorrow, with absolutely no evidence, they'll meet tomorrow to discuss those am plans including a potential vote to authorize an impeachment inquiry. former house speaker kevin mccarthy had refused to schedule a formal vote, but according to republican leaders, this time, the vote would be to re-enforce subpoenas from the house oversight committee, which is the height of hypocrisy since two key members of that very committee, jim jordan and scott perry, defied subpoenas from the house january 6th committee and a court filing unsealed briefly wednesday by the d.c. circuit court of appeals sheds new light on just how closely congressman scott perry was involved in trying to mount a coup for donald trump. including texts between perry and justice department lawyer

jeffrey clark during the period when trump was considering installing clark as acting attorney general. to push claims of nonexistent voter fraud. on december 30, 2020, perry texts clark, quote, potus seems very happy with your response. i read it just as you dictate it. clark replied, i'm praying. this makes me quite nervous and i wonder if i'm worthy or ready. perry responded, you are the man. i have confirmed it. god does what he does for a reason. within days of those texts, trump formally tried to install clark as acting attorney general. his plot was thwarted by a threat of mass resignations by justice department officials if clark was put in charge. joining me is congressman adam schiff of california who served on the january 6th house committee. congressman, i want to get you to react to the fact that some of your fellow members of congress duly-elected members were this active in this attempt to subvert the justice

department basically hijack it and steal the election for trump. >> well, it just shows how little their oath of office really meant to them. here they were, conspiring to overturn the election in the case of the text messages you read, you had a representative perry reaching out to jeffrey clark, someone completely unqualified to be attorney general. >> an environmental lawyer. >> an environmental lawyer, not particularly well thought of at the department. but whose only real qualification was his willingness to do anything for donald trump. >> yeah. >> his willingness to enlist others to try to help overturn the election, his basic unscrupulousness was his qualification. nothing short of a threat of mass resignation stopped trump from appointing him. but certainly, perry didn't stop. perry was trying to push him, elevate him, put him in a position where he could use the power of the justice department to help overturn the election. >> what do you make of the fact that, i mean, some of the key

architects of the attempts to overthrow the election have been rewarded with more power. the current speaker of the house was one of the main people, if fought the main person pushing the big lie, trying to get people to sign on to overthrow the election. scott perry, who sought a pardon, according to cassidy hutchinson. none of these people have paid a price. the people who have paid a price are people like liz cheney, who is out of power and out of office. >> sadly, that's exactly right. indeed, when you look at the effort to replace mccarthy, thomas emmer, who was emnnltly qualified, was essentially disqualified because he wasn't a proponent of the big lie. and what we found out in that speakership fight was the prerequisite to being the leader of the republican party in congress is you must be willing to lie for donald trump. you must be willing to undermine our democracy. if you're not, you're not qualified to run this conference. we did end up with a speaker who was very involved in the

litigation to overturn this election and we still have a judiciary committee chairman who ignored subpoenas of the january 6th committee and was also one of the architects in the house of overturning the election. the only ones who did pay a political price were liz cheney, adam kinzinger, those who lived up to their oath of office. and i think history will reflect very well on them. but it has been a bitter shock to me and many others that the liz and adams have been so few in number. that the vast, vast majority of republicans cared far more about holding their office than they ever did about the oath of office. or anything else. >> i love that you presume history will still be legal to tell i'm going to hold on to that hope. speaking of jim jordan, that's who you talking about who is a committchair. this is what cnn is reporting out of liz cheney's new book. during her gop conference call, cheney writes that house judiciary chairman jim jordan

was dismissive of the legal process for challenging the election results and didn't seem to think the rules mattered. the only thing that matters is winning, jordan said, according to cheney. he doesn't necessarily believe it. >> i think that is perfectly consistent with what i have observed of jim jordan, which is it's always been my sense that for him politics is just a game. it's like a sport. there's your team, there's our team. you lie, you cheat, you steal, you do whatever you can to win. and i'm convinced that if he got benched by the republicans he would offer to play for the democrats. i don't think there is any real ideology there. i think it's self promotion, kind of an enjoyment of the sport of it. but in terms of policy, in terms of devotion to country, i don't see any of evidence of that. >> let's go to the other end of the spectrum, a true believer or a very good actor. clay higgins, one of the weirdest members of the opposing caucus. he seems to believe the fbi did january 6th.

here he is talking about what he thinks needs to happen to jack smith. take a look. >> so i just say his days are numbered. and american patriots are not going to stand idly by, good sir, and allow our republic to dissolve. we're prepared to fight legally and peacefully, and within the parameters of the constitution. with every ounce of our might and focus. >> at least he said legally and peacefully within the bounds of the constitution. what in the world is he talking about? >> i don't know what he's talking about, but you do see this phenomenon, you see it with trump, thinly veiled threats or not even thinly veiled threats and then an effort to equivocate on the other side so the listener can take whatever message they want from it. but without any mistaking, what he's saying is justice system

doesn't matter. anyone who is prosecuting their party leader is therefore somehow illegitimate. the rule of law doesn't apply to donald trump. and that's where their base is. and that is a radical departure from where either party has ever been. in the past, i think people disavowed those that were involved in criminal activity. and were reluctant to attack the justice system. they would say, let the justice system do its will. they would say we'll follow the evidence wherever it leads. not anymore. not with this maga crowd. >> we're out of time, but tomorrow is santos, george santos going to get booted? going to get expelled? >> i think he is. it's not an easy issue in the sense of it's a change in precedent to go remove someone who hasn't been convicted. but the evidence is so substantial, the reports so bipartisan, the credit so

disqualifying that removing him is the right thing to do. >> adam schiff, thank you for being here. thank you for taking the time. scary times indeed. >> still ahead, america's top diplomat, antony blinken in the middle east, as the temporary truce is extended into day seven, allowing for the release of more hostages and delivery of more humanitarian aid. details next. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make- everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases. and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas- a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache.

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. in just a matter of hours, the seven-day cease-fire between israel and hamas is expected to come to an end barring any last-minute extensions. after eight more hostages were released today. secretary of state antony blinken is in the region meading meeting with leaders to potentially extend the truce. secretary blinken says in those meetings he urged prime minister netanyahu to take concrete steps to protect the lives of civilians in gaza. the biden administration strategy rathering the conflict has been controversial. the full throated embrace of netanyahu has earned him the ire of some in his own party. hers are making a counterargument that the strategy put him in the diplomatic position to make this temporary cease-fire and the hostage releases happen at all. "whiton post" columnist jennifer rubin writes, if biden had listened t demands from the

ft to condition aid to israel, publicly condemn its war operations and demand an immediate cease-fire, there is little chance any hostages would have been released or humanitarian aid increased. biden understood two things his critics didn't. first, the u.s. has no power to order israel around as if it were a vassal state. israel will do what it must to survive, even witho u.s. approv. it has conducted and will conduct military operations tha its governments consider essentially to its national security. second, any israeli government no matter how arrogant, must be concerned with israeli public opinion. if the israeli public trusts and embraces the u.s. president, it will be inclined to support his views on the region and his strategic thinking. joining me now is shoddy huh mean, columnist for "the washington post," and daniel levy, former israeli peace negotiator and president of the u.s. middle east project. thank you both for being here. i want to ask you both to sort

of comment and i'm going to start with you daniel, on whether you agree with the premise of ms. rubin's argument. >> i do not. first of all, i think had the president, the administration done many of those things, we probably wouldn't be here in the first place. but secondly, i do believe america has those levers, and we're going to eventually have to see america leaning in and using some of those levers if we're not going to add to the horrendous death toll, destruction that we're seeing in gaza. but i would also say the following. even if that is not the case, israel should not be pursuing this mission with additional american weapons, additional american assistance, additional american diplomatic and political cover, at least throw that into the mix and see how it plays out in israel, and at least then not be culpable

yourself. you won't be bleeding your international credibility, bleeding domestic support, and i imagine there would be less bleeding full stop if america changed that position. i think she's got it fundamentally wrong. >> shadi, i'll go to you on the same question. israel's sense of siege, the world is against us, we're all we've got. if the americans aren't with us, to hell with them as well. we're going to protect our people. after 10/7 happened, they were going to do this anyway. they were going to bomb the living hell out of gaza and really there was nothing that can stop it, but biden because he did the full bear hug is more popular in the israeli street than netanyahu is at this point, who is not doing much to get the hostages out, and it's his leverage that he gained that actually got us to the cease-fire, this temporary cease-fire and the hostage releases we have now. what do you make of that? >> i disagree with that assessment. i think the bear hug strategy

has failed. israel has not minimized civilian casualties. even if you look at blinken's comments in israel, he's saying that israel needs to have a clear plan to put a premium on protecting civilians. if you read between the lines, the implication is clear. he is suggesting that israel has not put a premium on civilian protection up until now. and publicly, biden officials have been careful about how they phrase these things. so they're saying the quiet part quietly. some of their private remarks have been more pointed. but i think the basic thing here is that without any sense of consequences for what israel does, why should israel listen to what blinken or anyone else is saying? and this is where i think the whole debate around conditions on military assistance becomes

important. at the end of the day, the u.s. is the senior partner in this relationship with israel. israel is dependent on the u.s. let's use our leverage, because if we don't use it now, when will we use it? and the civilian toll has been so staggering, as we all know, with more than two-thirds of the gazan population displaced. clearly, israel has not been particularly precise in its targeting. clearly, israel has not taken care to protect civilians as blinken said. so i think now is the time to have a serious conversation about what's next, and it's worth noting that biden a few days ago, when he was asked about putting conditions on aid to israel, he said it's quote/unquote a worthwhile thought. so something is shifting and i think there's a growing realization that sometimes you

have to put pressure on your allies. it doesn't mean that israel doesn't have a right to defend itself. of course, israel has a right to defend itself, but how it defends itself is absolutely crucial right now. >> i don't know if we have time to play it, but let's play it quickly. this is what mr. blinken said. >> i made clear that before israel resumes major military operations, it must put in place humanitarian civilian protection plans that minimize further casualties of innocent palestinians. that means taking more effective steps to protect the lives of civilians including by clearly and precisely designating areas and places in southern and central gaza where they can be safe and out of the line of fire. it means avoiding further significant displacement of civilians inside of gaza. it means avoiding damage to life critical infrastructure. like hospitals, like power stations, like water facilities. >> daniel, is that still

possible at this stage? if this bombing continues? >> well, the very simple answer is no, because if the bombing continues and is resumed, then given the scale of the humanitarian crisis already in place, look at what the doctor from the world health organization said today, the absence of sanitary conditions, potable water, the spread of disease. if the bombing resumes, you won't be able to bring in what's needed, and that humanitarian problem in addition to people being directly killed by the bombings is going to metastasize. but secondly, i think it's just disingenuous to imagine that the way a military operation has proceeded thus far will radically change given everything the israelis themselves are saying. i would recommend a piece in the mindset of two website which is an investigation inside israel's calculated bombing of gaza. my fear is that it will go back

to the massive destruction, then eventually the administration will decide, okay, we have to lean in more. in those intervening period of time, we will have yet more casualties, and it's going to take time to walk israel down from that. that should have begun long ago. it should have begun if not then, then today. and israel is still going to play in what i call this margin of mulevinant maneuver. and blinken and the administration should do their maximum to bring that to an end asap. and we have waited too long. and i fear the two elements in play here, which is the internal pressure inside israel from the families which now will increase, i believe, has to be matched by the kind of external pressure, which means a sustained public disagreement probably by the administration. >> i wish we had more time. we have to bring you gentlemen

back. we'll have this conversation ongoing. thank you both very much. coming up, republican presidential candidate nikki haley is seen by many as a more mainstream alternative to trump in 2024. spoiler alert, everybody, she's not that mainstream. i'll explain after this. his.

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former south carolina governor nikki haley for president. with seven weeks until the iowa caucuses, endorsement unlocks tens of millions of dollars and a network of volunteers that would give haley a boost. she's running third in the polls against her former boss, donald trump, and florida governor "ronan farrow daily." it's also ironic that they have decided to change the page on trump since their organization and the koch brothers have done so much including underwriting the tea party movement to pave the way for trump and his right wing fanaticism which is now the marker of the republican party. while she likes to pretend she's the only sensible choice for the party, herere key things to keep in mind. she's an ultra conservative who would sign a six-week abortion ban if she's president. she has close ties to christian zionist pastor who once asserted, quote -- i'm sorry, i'm going to tell you, he said

adolf hitler was sent by god to drive jews to israel. hagy suggested it was jews' disobedience to god that gave rise to persecution. she repeatedly claimed america is notacist even though her family was asked to leave multiple homes because the neighbors didn't want indians living next to them, and her father would only find a job with an hbcu, and she said in 2016 anyone but trump, only to turn around and praise him and become his u.n. ambassador. this endorsement is nothing more than theater meant to preview who will lead the party. after trump either loses again or his presidency for life ends in the natural way. joining me now, david corn, washington bureau chief for mother jones and msnbc political contributor. there's so much more about her, but you wrote a book about extremism. does she count in your view as an extremist? >> i think she is. you know, she's playing footsy with the maga thing. like with abortion and everything else, she really is trying to make an art form of

having it both ways. so you mentioned her turn about on donald trump. after january 6th, she said, party has to stop listening to him. it's time to move past trump. so she was out there with these other republicans saying this is too much. even for me, i work for the guy, this is a riot too far. that was january 2021. by april, 2021, if you want do the math, three months, it's only three months, she was out there saying she would support trump if he ran for president again. because she knows that you can't say no to maga. even though she's trying to present herself as the reasonable alternative, and there are people like the koch network, jamie dimon, the big banker, came out today, and these are republicans who want the tax cuts, don't care about climate change, they want deregulation, and they want to find a republican other than

trump, because they don't like the baggage and they think he's too erratic, particularly on foreign policy. they are moving to her. and i disagree slightly with what you said in the lead-in. i think they do believe that she has a shot. if you can get desantis out of the way, and hope that maybe a cheeseburger or two slows trump down or something, but she's the better bet at this point in time. but the interesting thing is in some of the polling shows that desantis' voters, their second choice is -- >> is nicky? >> no, tends to be trump. they get desantis out of the race, it makes sense. some of them may just go back to trump. >> a couple things. i did cover the taking down of the confederate flag in south carolina, which she took great credit for. one must also note she was firmly in favor of the confederate flag when she was south carolina governor.

she took advantage of the fact that democrats in the state legislature engineered getting the flag taken down and foreign businesses were saying yeah, we're leaving. all these car manufacturing things are out of here if you don't take it down. she tends to take credit for other people's ideas. one other thing, when you look at the afp endorsement, they said she presents a bold and robust strategy to tackle inflation, addressing the out of control government spending and simplifying the tax code to benefit the american people rather than special interests. that means she's for drill, drill, drill. she's for tax cuts for billionaires. she's for -- >> social security reform. >> meaning basically privatized social security. all the things the koch brothers want. >> it's no surprise, and she has a more hawkish foreign policy than trump because trump is just whatever. but she helped blow up the iran deal. she didn't do very much to stop anything with north korea. and i read something about her a

couple days ago because she has what she calls her freedom plan. part of her freedom plan is to put term limits not just on politicians but when she says government bureaucrats, they can't work at the same job for more than five years. think of food and drug safety, intelligence analysts, people at the border who run the border patrol that after five years, after gaining all the expertise they have, we're going to say so long, we don't want you, good-bye. and if you do that, who is going to go to work? >> essentially the same thing that happened to the house of representatives and part of the senate. you replace regular sort of there were people who work on trade negotiations, climate change negotiations, who were there for years because it takes that long to figure it out. >> sure. >> and if we kick them all out, but this is what she is doing to appeal to the anti

government, anti expertise, no nothing-ism of trump maga. >> they want to do down the street and their cousin joe to run things instead of people that know what they're doing, because in their mind those people in the deep state, because our experts and went to college and need to be thrown out and replaced with joe the butcher. >> people who surface sized research at nih, we don't want public health officials. someone who might have been around at the last pandemic, we don't want them around the next one. >> david's gonna stick around a bit because he's gonna give us his thoughts on the passing of the deeply controversial figure, henry kissinger, after this break. y kissinger, after thi break. break. >>opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley

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he served as secretary of state in the nixon and ford administrations. to say he had a complicated legacy is an understatement. is nbc news puts it, he earned a reputation as a sagacious the most singularly reviledof public figures of his age, when his legacy is inextricably bound up with bloodshed around the world. in the eyes of his critics he was synonymous with the brutality of american power and some of the costliest foreign policy decisions in modern history. david corn this back with. us thoughts? >> kissinger deserves praise for the opening to china, dealing with détente, and negotiating strategic arms treaties with the soviet union. but his whole view of the world

was it was his to play with and to manipulate. it was real politic without any concern with happened to people. so he said yes, i cooked up the secret bombing of cambodia, which was illegal, and about 100 50 to 500,000 civilians were killed in that. in bangladesh he told the pakistani military junta to go ahead and go in and and slaughter ben galleys, who were opposing them. 300,000 people there. the same thing in indonesia, with east timor. he helped plot cia action to overthrow a democratic government in chile, thousands dead. salvadorian day, early 70s. when the hunter came in to argentina, it was disappearing people, killing people, he said okay and all of this is plotted out in memos that have come to light. none of this is up for dispute.

so if you start tallying yet you get hundreds of thousands, maybe 1 million people through actions, dead, through actions he gave the greenlight to. you think that would sort of cut you out of polite society. but no. he remained a favorite of the op-ed pages, of the tv talk shows. and he reminds me of this quote, it's attributed to stolen but he probably never to say it, one death is a tragedy, 1 million deaths is a statistics. if you do it big, go bold, you don't get held accountable. he was never ever held accountable. he never expressed regret. and even when ted koppel interviewed him earlier this year, when he turned 100, he kind of said all, why are even bringing up cambodia? that was 60 years ago. >> what? >> and the young people today who are upset about it, they don't know anything. so to his dying breath he was never even sorry for his geopolitical scheming that led to tremendous brutality and

death that these other countries were that americans don't pay a lot of attention to. >> the thing about it is, not only did you never get done of polite society, he still gets praised and consulted, up to the end. people still asking, what would kissinger do? taking his consult. why would any political leader a politician want the consulate of that man, giving given what he did? even president biden praised him today. he was probably trying to be nice to amanda died at 100, but it's 100 to me that he never earned the opprobrium he deserved. >> he's the best example of how the establishment never really turns on one of its own. and if you look at the people who gave advice on the iraq war, and afterwards, a lot of them still have very important purchase today, as op-ed columnist and others. no one's had to pay the price for that. that led to 20,000 dead iraqi

civilians and 3 to 4000 -- >> and the creation of i.s.i.s.. >> the destabilization throughout the region. there is something about that world to protect its own. once you are anointed as a wise man, and they were a few wise women, but usually it's wiseman, it's almost impossible to lose that status. you still have this, it's a hypnotic power, to keep people impressed, despite what i would call evil that irresponsible. for >> my favorite mean about this is, jimmy caracal carter hanging on to make sure he outlived that s.o.b.. definitely needs this. >> if you want foreign rights and foreign policy, kissinger was the office opposite. >> i take your point, friend. that's tonight's reidout. all in with chris hayes starts and three, two, one, now. and three, two, one, now >> tonight on all in. >> santos was buying