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we >> begin tonight with some breaking news, -- in the lead up to hamas's october 7th attack. according to new reporting not yet verified by nbc news, israeli intelligence obtained hamas's detailed battle plan for the october 7th attack more than a year ago before the attack took place. cogent from the new york times. israeli officials obtained hamas battle plan for the terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails, and interviews show. but israeli military and intelligence about dismissed the plant as aspirational, consider it too difficult for hamas to carry out. the approximately 40-page document, which the israeli authorities code named jericho wall outlined, point by point,

exactly they kind of give us a thing invasion that led to the deaths of about 1200 people. hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. the document cold for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack. it cold for drones to knock at the security cameras and automotive machine guns along the border, and it called for gunmen to pour into israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles, and onslaught. all of which happened on october 7th. officials are privately concede that had the military taken these warnings seriously, israel could have blunted the attacks or possibly even prevented them. what could have been an intelligent coup, turned into one of the worst miscalculations in israel's 75 year history. joining us now is former cia director under president obama john brennan, now msnbc senior national security and intelligence analysts. thank you for being here. let me get your reaction to this bombshell reporting from that new york times. >> hello, alex. i was shocked when i read through it. the fact the israelis have been

able to collect more than a year and advance the actual battle plan hamas used, but then failed to be able to realize this was an effect what they were going to do. it shows that made faulty assumptions. that's one of the real problems with any kind of policy -- when you met with assumptions. it was underestimating capabilities author of missouri. that usually happens when there is a paramilitary adversary -- but this document, this historical document they, thought it should have been the prism through which they looked at every hamas action over the past year. to see whether or not the hamas fighters were actually working on it and making progress

against it. they deemed it was too aspirational for hamas to carry out. but this, they had more than a year to be able to judge and evaluate whether or not hamas was moving down that progression. and obviously, this is something that is going to require very extensive review in terms of what the failure was. but it also raises serious questions about how intelligence might be not used appropriately, or -- the system is not working the way it should. if this document didn't make it through to be actually an opportunity for israel to stop and implement those dreadful attacks. >> when you said this document should have been a president which all hamas exercises for example were seen, there is a detail in the pace that says, angela, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with unit 8200, israel 's signals intelligence agency, warned that hamas had conducted an intense, day long training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint. the same analyst goes on to say, it is a plant designed to start a war, she added, it's not just a right on a village. first of all, the idea they effectively sort of drought run

for this. how unusual is that? and in terms of an analyst ring and alarm bells so clearly, is that unusual? >> the analyst did exactly what she was supposed to do, which was to look at what hamas was doing and to see whether or not there any correlation with previous intelligence that the israelis collective. and she seemed to be pushing it. but somebody up the chain of combined, or some bodies up the chain of command, still determined hamas would be unable to carry out such a broad, extensive plan. but this is where, i think, you really need to have those analysts to push it up the chain of command. this is what they're going to have to look at any kind of commission review. how did the system breakdown so profoundly that they weren't able to exploit the opportunity that was given to them by actually collecting this document more than a year ago? >> to that, and it sounds like there was one cardinal in charge of the gazette unit, in particular, who sort of step in the way of the warnings.

potentially. ascending of the food chain, if you. will a cardinal and gaza devotion brushed off the analysts concerns, according to encrypted emails viewed by the times. i articulate refused this story is imaginary, the analyst wrote in the email extended. the colonel applauded the adult, but said the plan was part of a totally imagine center, not a indication of ability to pull it off. in short, let's wait patiently, the colonel wrote. director brennan, in short, let's wait patiently. that is the stuff that lives on in infamy after october 7th. i know we're talking about a different intelligence service and israel. but as far as the chain of command, as far as that ways and analysts would have around the corner like this, who seems that sit on not taking this anywhere. does that opportunity exist? how many people do you imagine what this report. >> they should have been a lot. and there should be no single point of value. no single person should be able to stop something like this from being further reviewed and looked at. if this document, there seems to be no question -- this was a legitimate hamas

document -- that just didn't believe they were able to carry it out. but something like this should have been short broadly. i wonder, something like this, should have been insured broadly across is really defense intelligence. -- and even to the extent that the united states is such a close intelligent rotten ship with the israelis. this is something that i think they would really want to have fresh eyes look at. and to also see whether or not u.s. intelligence or other intelligence might have picked up some indicators, indications that infect hamas was able to store to operationalize this plan. but it was kept within a small group of people, or if one individual was able to stop this from actually being reviewed and considered to be a real, legitimate plan, that hamas would be able to carry out, there is a strong, strong need for there to be an immediate review of what's going on inside israeli intelligence and how this information gets to policy

makers to make sure that it can be acted upon, operationalized, and to mitigate any potential future threats. >> former cia director john brennan, thank you so much for your time and your respective on all this. really appreciate it. i want to bring into the competition, ben rhodes, who served as deputy national security adviser in the obama administration. ben, thanks for joining me. tonight i'm shocked whether reporting, i also want -- i'm shot given the public statement we've gotten from the israeli government thus far. the times of israel, benjamin netanyahu, i believe this is october 28th. there is a's -- a tweet that was subsequently pulled down. saying, contrary to the false claims, under no circumstances and at no stage was prime minister talking to warrant a hamas war intentions. perhaps this never made it to his desk, but that in and of itself, if you listen to director brennan, it seems like a massive security failure. >> yeah, i mean, ultimately, first of all.

he's with the responsible official. he's the prime minister of the country. and his whole political identity has been tied to the fact that he was the person that ensured israel security. so either you have a situation in which there were warnings that war ignored, they may have reached people in his cabinet. or, this instant lesson is functional that information wasn't being sheared and the focus from -- because the other issue here is, alex, sometimes there's ultimate from policymakers, what do we have from -- in terms of muscle intentions? what we saw in the run up to october 7th, is a number of things. number, what we saw mass political dysfunction and israel. as prime minister roy is trying to ram through that judicial changes, you had protests in

the streets and public warnings from some of his security officials. that dysfunction was putting israel in major. ben you had the idf units -- up and the west bank, in part, because they were predicting is rights hit or from coast with palestinians. so you had a lot of dysfunction, and what we learned in this really a lot of reporting is that at a minimum, that dysfunction was in the israeli intelligence community and was preventing a document that was unprecedented and it's specifically about the nature of a, take and was there for a year. it's not something that was only a couple of days before the attacks. citing and the system for a here, and nobody was acting upon. it nobody was similarly accountable for needing to act upon it. >> given the potential indictment here, i wonder if you were surprised that we even know about this. given how fraught it is for this prime minister, at a time when the political landscape is complicated for him? >> alex, i think what happens. i've been in government when there is been intelligence failure. as i've worked for the vice chair of that 9/11 commission throughout that effort. inevitably, what happens is, when there are officials who knew that they were doing their jobs, and then they start to

hear politicians say, nobody had any idea this was going to happen, we couldn't have done anything to stop. with that information tends to find its way out. because there are people that are frustrated and people who want there to be accountability. and people who want the system to work better. people with not just motivations for themselves but motivations to say, hey, look, waiting to fix some things here. and usually, the impulse of politicians and it -- is to say, when the war is over, when enough time has gone, but then we'll take a look. back and i think part of the race and the informations coming out is because there is people and system, like, no. we need to understand what happened, how this happened, why this happened, in part to help people be held accountable. but in part because we have to fix this. this is an ongoing military operation against hamas, that is unheard dependent on intelligence. where are the leaders? what or their intentions? where are they? what is your contract with external actors? all of that information is absolutely indispensable to everything israel don't on a day-to-day basis. so unless these differences are effect, israel is not going to be as secure as it needs to. but >> you bring that up as that pause, whatever for your

calls when it, the semi chief or is it to expire. i wonder how you think was informs that. given that renewed military incursions i going to depend on intelligence, which as we're trading in that new york times, has felt israel profoundly. >> yeah, and it's a very complicated picture. because on the one, hand they actually are collecting intelligence. they had the intelligence, the whole blueprint office attack. what wasn't happening was it wasn't being secured appropriately. it wasn't being acted upon. it wasn't the focus of political edition of the country. it wasn't perhaps the focus of event that leadership of the security services went and should have been. and you're, right there's a pause. and during that pause, one of the things we know, the biden administration's counsel and the israeli government, is what you were doing before is, this full scale description of the gaza strip that killed over 1000 people and inflamed opinion around the world, could be contributed to that radicalization of a generation of people in gaza. that approach is not going to be seasonable for a humanitarian perspective and a political, diplomatic perspective. in -- therefore, in the recalibration of israel's military operation is going to depend on a more targeted protests. one that benefit is what the proposition is in terms of how much is it a ship, its military credibility. that is very much and and

allegiance driven kind of effort here. and so, i think it's bigs that need, to take a minute here, and try to figure out how to make sure it's working as well as a child. i think we should also, alex, people are saying, israel can't go back to october 6th. they wouldn't be going back to october 6th with a long versus far. they are on the border. now the atf is there. it is fortified. october's offense is impossible. in the current endemic. so i think, it's entirely appropriate, and possible, for israel to sit, we're going to basically make decisions about the recalibration of this mueller operation, we're also gonna be looking hard at how we've had such a catastrophic failure and are there some changes we need to be making, now instructive, fix it. and lastly, alex, this question of the prime minister. because even netanyahu's stand it was before this bombshell dropped. he's never had more low approval ratings. conventionalism's, he'll be replaced at some point, probably he wants it to be the conclusion of the military of erosion. i think those questions are going to kick up again.

does israel make some of the political edition. all of this is going to be worrying israeli politics and the days to come, and there are a lot of important decisions to make. >> and as a human, the families of the hostages who are still in gaza, who are still being held captive. having to read the story. thinking, somewhere, maybe it could've been prevented. just devastating. ben rhodes, thank you so much for your time tonight. really appreciate it. >> thanks, alex. >> much more ahead this evening, including exactly what made senator lindsey graham very,

very angry and the senate judiciary committee hearing meeting today. >> i think this is a bunch of garbage and crap to be honest with you. >> and new text messages between scott perry and trump justice official jeffrey clark shed new light on that republican effort in congress to overturn the 2020 election. that is next. >> i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal, have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx.

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in effect. today, a new york appeals court brings out of the gag order on foreign presidents donald trump in his civil fraud trial. that gag order bars trump from making any statements about court staff after his repeated social media posts attacking the judges clerk in the case. after being prohibited from attacking atlanta to staff today, trump instead attacked the judge's wife. so, a house that is a mother of invention, i guess. meanwhile, we could learn any day now whether another a separate gag order on trump will be upheld in a federal court. casey appeals court such a role in trump's challenge to the gag order and published one hand by the judge and january 6th criminal case, brought by special counsel jack smith. but while we're waiting for that ruling, way to get an ipad from that particular appeals court. and we concerns this guy. this is republican congressman scott perry, of pennsylvania. you might know from his many,

many cameos and congresses january 6th investigation. in, fact scott perry turned out to be so entangled in donald trump's attempts to stay in office after losing the 2020 election, the january 6th committee took the unprecedented step of subpoenaing hand, a philip member of congress. a subpoena congressman perry plump -- promptly blue. of last, year the fbi seized scott perry's phone is part of the criminal investigation of generous six, innocent inspect mid and slippery have been in a legal battle over exactly what communications federal prosecutors are allowed to access on mr. perry's phone. now, and what appears to have been a clerical error, the appeals court briefly posted on a document that describes and quotes from a whole bunch of those communications from perry 's phone. and, oh boy. they sure would same to confirm congressman scott perry was right in the middle of donald trump's efforts to overturn the election. to quote politicos headline, cork falling feels representative scott perry's vast level of contact and bid to reverse 2020 election. for instance, there are the texts paris exchanged with jeffery clark, the obscure trump justice department

official who perry had introduced to trump as someone who could help with the effort to overturn the election. trump found mr. clerks are helpful, in fact, that in late december 2020, trump made it known hit was planned to install jeffrey clark as acting attorney general, so trump could use the justice department to push his stolen election claims. and these newly-revealed communications, we learned scott perry texted jeffery clark late on december 30th, to tell clerk president trump seemed happy with him, so distant the plan to elevate jeffery clark to the top of the department of justice wasn't import. clark replied, quote, i'm praying. this makes me quite nervous. and wonder if i'm worthy already. to which parrot responded, you are the man. i have confirmed it. god does what he does for a reason. and addition to telling clark influenced by got to take over the justice department four donald trump, scott perry also told jeffery clark, he would get a presidential security clearance -- congressman perry was busy doesn't with lots of people to try to keep donald trump in power. he was texting with top trump administration campaign officials and swell as little rock and has times of pennsylvania, about various

ways john bottoms victory above returned in that state, pennsylvania. and beyond. this is all on top of what we heard in testimony from former trump white house aide cassidy hutchinson, who said that congressman scott perry was central to confident about trump potentially leading rally goers to the capital on january 6th. and after january 6th, mr. perry asked trump for a preemptive presidential pardon. something congress and perry denies. but scott perry is far from the only member of congress depleted vault and all of this. remember, trump's own justice department leaders testified, trump told them, quote, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressman. those included people at ohio congressman jim jordan, who was a key player in white house realty suspense about keeping trump in power and the current house speaker mike johnson, whose spacious legal arguments for unfortunately election gave cover to his 146 republican

colleagues, who voted against certifying joe biden's win. and now, the guy who almost got to be trump's attorney general, jeffery clark, is among those criminally charged in georgia and is named as one of the six unindicted coconspirators in the federal criminal case against donald trump. as a turns, out trump had a lot of other coconspirators in the united states congress. joining me now is devlin barry, national security and law enforcement reporter for the washington post. devin, thanks so much of being here. scott perry, very much of the sort of where's waldo in the scene of inside the capital and out of the capital, unfolding in and around january 6th. can you talk about the role he played in choosing jeffery clark and helping to elevate him to be a potential a. g.? >> right, so one of the ways in which the time period we are talking about was a strange, which it, was people were really confused. people within the justice department were really confused. how did jeffery clark come to the presidents attention? jeff clark was essentially an environmental lawyer and it wasn't clear even to people run at the department why jeffery

clark was suddenly a portion of such interest to president trump and now i have that much better from this, perhaps accidentally, unsealed violent why that. is because perry was apparently acting as a go-between between the president and clark. and so that sort of fills in a big blank and of the sort of question mark, as to how all this came to be. and really what you see is you see perry helping, sort, of navigate this where at budget religion should between clark and president trump. >> i was surprised to see trepidation on the part of jeffrey clark, a man who was a very much going against the grain of what basically every other legal mind thought, as far as the flexibility to overturn the results of the election. ten on the anything more about the sort of coaching role that scott perry played and trying to reassure jeffrey clark that dog was on his side and the doubt that because the jeff clark's mind as he sought to run the justice department? >> we really don't have a great sense of why these two were so immediately open with each other on this novel, the cause clark and express and doubts about his own ability to pursue

this. and perry's, saying no, you are essentially, you know, the persian perfect person to do this. but i do think, the back and forth shows a number of things. one is which, one of which i think is the core of this whole thing, is the discussion of tickets. and tickets in this context is -- they have a discussion about clark wants a ticket and says perry he will try to get him. what that atlantic ocean about tigray criminals. what they're really talking about is that desire to get access to classified information, that i think will help the argument this election was stolen. we know that through a whole range of people, in the intelligence committee at the, time there was no meaningful intelligence that would help trump's argument here. but i think it's really interesting but paris and clark were both focused at the time, on getting classified intelligence, that i felt would make the argument. in part, because clearly there was no public information that would help make this case. >> right. >> and it shows the degree to which it more, you know, desperate. they were looking for anything

that might help them make an argument that didn't make sense. >> it just becomes clear, in your reporting, that scott perry is kind of a very strange role here. as someone that's trying to help and stall this sort of random justice official, and coaching through the process to be the attorney general. he's so much that has competence with trump chief of staff mark meadows after those conversations, meadows, according to cassidy hutchinson start burnt documents in the fireplace. i think i'm getting that right. and then perry asked reportedly for a preemptive pardon, from donald trump. he is sort of silly figure here. finding himself, i mean, i'm using that in the passive sense. putting himself in that situation of apparently key influence. i wonder why you think he has thus far of a did his own criminal indictment? >> well, it's a really interesting question. because again, remember, as you pointed out, clark has been indicted in georgia. clark's an unindicted coconspirator in the federal case, in washington. yet, from these texts, we see that perry is a really important go-between between

clark and president trump. so, it's a fewer question to ask. why hasn't he faced more of a sort of public accountant from prosecutors? but i will say, like, the whole reason we're seeing these texts and the whole reason this legal issue exists is because it's very clear. that the special counsel has been looking for closely had perry, and it's been a whole legal argument around the legal protections surrounded members of congress. that protects paris a little bit more than other people. and that may explain some of why he has not been named in the way we're talking about. but i also think you can't assume he's out of the woods, because as these texts show, he's right in the middle of some of the most concerning conversations to prosecutors. >> yeah, i gotta say, on that vein, he's not the only one that's so for a skated away from a federal indictment. or is skating parallel perhaps to a federal criminal and document. mike johnson is always one, the current speaker of the house, who in his bid to get 147 republicans to sign on to this amicus brief -- other than former president donald trump, mike johnson is probably the most probable federal official and what can

spread on january 6th, 2021. now i know it's true heat with members of congress, and a ship is more sick with because of the house, but i wonder if you think he's potentially absolved, out of the woods, to use your expression, on further federal investigation, given the sort of central role he played in turning up enthusiasm and legitimate support for the big lie? >> i, mean look. i think it's hard to predict exactly what prosecutors planned to do with that broader conspiracies. one of the things i think is very tricky about, the case checks met his charge and his present trump, he essentially charged with conspiracy. he's charged alone. the premise of charging summit with conspiracy is you can

conspire yourself, you can support with others. smith has identified a handful of other people. but that doesn't mean that's where the conspiracy ends. and i think there is a world in which this can keep going. but, it's pretty clear the special counsel is trying to finish the case against trump for itself the case against anybody else. >> that is true. whether he can is another issue entirely. devlin barrett, washington post.

great to have you, kevin. thanks for your time. >> thanks for having me. >> still ahead this evening, senate democrats want to hear more from wealthy conservatives have reportedly been

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>> today democrats in the

senate judiciary committee voted on something that made senator lindsey graham, a top republican on the committee, furious. >> let's be real blunt and direct, this is garbage. i think it's a really bad idea. this jihad y'all have been on, i think this is a bunch of garbage and crap to be honest with you. so yeah. this is really bad, senator kennedy. this is a political effort by the radical left to destroy this court. this committee is taking this country down a dark and dangerous road. >> it wasn't just senator graham that thought what democrats voted on today was a jihad by the radical left. when it came time to vote on this dark and nefarious thing, every republican on the committee disappeared. they stormed out. refusing to vote. so what wasn't the republicans were so passionately opposed to today? issuing to subpoenas. remember, when republicans control this committee and lindsey graham was its chairman, they had no problem issuing more than 50 subpoenas to people involved in the mueller investigation of donald trump in the 2016 election. but today's two subpoenas,

those crossed a line. because today democrats on the committee subpoenaed conservative activist leonard leo and republican billionaire and megadonor harlan crow. you might recognize harlan crow as the billionaire who has taken supreme court justice thomas on luxury vacations for two decades. or as the guy who bought a house for, from justice thomas, but for some reason let justice thomas's mother continue to live there for free. for the man who paid for the private school tuition to a relative thomas said he was raising as a sign. you might remember leonard leo because of all the great propublica reporting about him acting as a powerbroker, setting up those luxury excursions for supreme court justices with rich republicans. democrats wanted to know more

about all of that was a bridge too far from lindsey graham and his republican colleagues. coming up, as to arizona officials are indicted for delaying the certification of 2022 midterm election results, one local radio station is trying to combat disinformation in the grand canyon state. that is next.

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get started at longlivedogs.com >> this week two local officials in cochise county, arizona, were indicted by a grand jury for their efforts to withhold certification of 2022 midterm election results in their county. the election deniers were charged with two felonies for allegedly conspiring to delay the certification of election results and interfering with the secretary of state's statewide canvas. their indictment comes as efforts are being made in arizona, a state with a long history of disinformation, and efforts are being made to counter disinformation ahead of election day 2024. radio campesina in phoenix is doing its part to fight that disinformation, particularly among latino voters, who make up nearly a quarter of the electorate in the state of arizona. msnbc's paulo ramos has this

report. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ they're to report their morning show, today's theme is disinformation. they'll be dispelling a lot of the themes and narratives to latino voters aren't supposed to hear. >> [speaking in a global language] >> [speaking in a global language] >> with the sprawling state of arizona program in the 2024 election, campus, radio campesina, a spanish language radio station, is seen as a beacon of truth in the landscape of misinformation. >> [speaking in a global language] >> [speaking in a global language] >> the radio station is also an effective mobilizer for a community whose relationship with politics has been strained by the past. >> [speaking in a global language]

>> radio campesina has been a consistent and trusted messengers for decades, ever since it was founded by labor activist cesar chavez in 1983. it was meant to serve as a voice for the spanish speaking community, including in arizona. this state has been home to some of the country's most anti-immigrant policies, from racial profiling to the show me your papers law in 2010, to senate candidate kari lake, who says an invasion is happening at the southern border. >> joe biden is different. >> the biden campaign has also launched spanish language radio ads on radio campesina and other stations, marking what it says is the earliest ever investment by democrats in black and latino radio. so far the campaign is focused more on the early primary states. it didn't respond to our questions about the quest for arizona. misinformation, disillusionment can feed off the deeply rooted mistrust many latinos feel, and that's why -- has taken to connecting with its audience in a unique in traditional way.

it's saturday night in phoenix, arizona. where at this rodeo community event that's being hosted by radio campesina. it's not just fun and games. it's a political strategy. this campesina is building trust with the community. >> [speaking in a global language] >> radio campesina nestle into the community, and it's through outreach events like this. >> people are trying to have fun, they're here for the rodeo, to drink, to be with the families, and yet you all onstage we're talking about politics and disinformation. was that strategic? >> yes, yes we are here to celebrate, enjoy a day. but this is the way you do it, by registering to get out to vote and understanding that you cannot allow any misinformation stop you to vote. >> we were curious, just how deep does that misinformation and mistrust go? >> [speaking in a global language] >> [speaking in a global language] >> [speaking in a global language] >> there's a lot of mistrust in the community. we were talking to people. a lot of different information that they're hearing. can they trust radio campesina? >> they trust the brand. we have been there next to them at the front line.

they need us more than ever. >> millions of dollars spent courting latino voters, countless digital initiatives set up to counter the big lie and drive voter turnout, the answer may lie in the trusted messenger. and the voice that has always had the ear of the community. >> polo ramos, joins me to talk us right here, coming up next. ♪ ♪ ♪

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(tires squeal) (glass shattering) (loose gravel clanking) two weeks ago, this show reported on a controversy surrounding america's most influential spanish language network, univision, and its recent choice to embrace donald trump, despite former presidents previous attacks on the network and its award winning journalists. univision's decision to curry

favor with trump is not happening inside a vacuum. wall street journal reported that matter, the parent company of facebook, threats, and instagram, will now allow ads that falsely claim the past elections were stolen. joining me now is paulo ramos, an msnbc contributor and the person who bought us that compelling piece on the fight against disinformation in arizona. it's great to see you. this is such an essential reporting to understand, the spread of disinformation but also the efforts to combat it. i wonder if you can explain to folks who don't know the broader spanish language media and vibrant and where radio campesina fits into that. >> you started with univision. it's very easy to overlook and diminish a small radio station like radio campesina within this massive news and that work environment. but radio campesina has a lot of power. if you want to win a latina vote, radios the way to do it. 90% of latino adults tune into radio every month, and believe that rio is the way to remain grounded in the community. radio has something tv doesn't

half, which is this format you. confuse the music, these voices that sound very familiar, and that's the beauty of radio campesina, because they have been this constant and steady voice in the community for years. they have been the voice in the background of people's homes while -- was doing his things, during a speed ten 70, during president obama's deportations, during trump's -- during president biden's very sort of conflicting immigration agenda. in the midst of all that uncertainty, radio campesina was there. when you're looking at this very rapidly changing media landscape, when you're looking at a latino audience that may be signaling to us that they are changing, radio campesina is still emerging as a trusted voice. >> and a critical voice that pushes back against disinformation. this is not just naked politics. it's truth versus lies. i wonder if you could contention lies that in the context of univision. i'm actually not.

but you know what i'm saying. misinformation, disinformation is a real problem. it's not just currying favor with trump. it's putting out bad information that has a depressing effect on political action, voter registration, a number of things that are critical to the survival of our democracy. >> i say this all the time. if we know that miss and disinformation is bad in english, it's way worse in spanish. we are exposed to higher rates and because the monitoring the mechanism behind it aren't there in spanish the way they are an english. i sink what we try to tell them the story is this idea that miss and disinformation among latinos doesn't happen in a vacuum. the big lie doesn't happen in a vacuum. the big lie feeds off of the deeply rooted mistrust that a lot of latinos are carrying with them. it feeds off a generational trauma latinas have been faced with for years. but the way that the trauma has

-- and the racial profiling, where the trauma has seen politicians on both sides of the aisle make a lot of promises that don't ever happen, the way that that trauma has seen joe biden in 2020 pledge that he wouldn't build the wall and certainly another wall is going up. so that trauma and that diss and misinformation, can create the current environment we in with those apsey, and that's what we found in arizona, where there's uncertainty, where there's disenchantment. so i think that is the biggest question and challenge that joe biden is up against, which is how do you sustain the hope to garner among arizona latinos in 2020, becoming the first democratic president to win that state since 1996. how do you sustain that credibility? >> i have to ask you, because

we're talking about credibility, about joe biden and the challenges he faces, i have to ask you about univision where your father's legendary journalist -- ramos, he came out with the statement, i think this was yesterday, speaking of his, broadly but pointedly to univision, actually. we can't normalize behavior that threatens democracy in the hispanic community or offer trump an open microphone to broadcast his falsehoods and conspiracy theories. can you offer us any insight into what this is like for a truth teller like jorge-ramos at a time of seismic change in a network he helped build? >> my father has told me since day one, the biggest role we have as journalists is to question power and authority. in the face of someone like trump, we questioned him. and i think what univision is

doing and what is radio campesina, i think it shows you the moral question that a lot of these media stations are wrestling with which is to cave in to trumpism and do you give them a platform because you believe that that is what latinos want -- >> and access to power. that's what makes it attractive. >> that's what it's about. univision is betting that trump will win. with that comes power access. they're also betting on the latino audience that may be changing, maybe telling us that you know it, we may need a more conservative point of view, and they may fail or not. but what it certainly does fail,

it's journalism. >> the fourth estate. and truth, rely. urge let me ask you, in terms of how, for example, democrats, joe biden, people interested in the truth, combat this? it seems to me that authenticity being native to the environment, which is radio campesina has been there for a long time, it seems like the interlocutors here have to be already known. >> you need to find the trusted voice. i'll give you a quick advanced example. also crystal clear to me during covid-19 because i remember i asked a latino voter a question. this was a voter they didn't believe in the vaccines, didn't believe in masks. i said why don't you trust doctor fauci? she said who is doctor fauci? and it was because we weren't reaching her. it was because there wasn't the spanish version of dr. fauci. so it goes back to who is that trusted messenger? , it may not be joe biden, but it may be people within stations like radio campesina. >> it's great to know that they are out there doing the work in

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