he has on this incredible success he's had, and he's figured out a way to kind of spin in and turn around and market it, and make it into something positive. so, i was kind of scratching my head about what that might be, and i thought, wait a second. six degrees was this silly game. >> i love that you leaned into that. smart embrace. can't afford, it i guess. >> i was hoping it was going to go away, but it never went away. so, i thought, well just embrace the beast, and went and got the domain six degrees dot org. then i said, i don't know how to start a foundation. so, i started talking to smart people. >> and that does it for us. we're back on monday, 60 am eastern, have a wonderful weekend. weekend. this is the katie phang show, live from msnbc world headquarters in new york city. we've got lots of news to cover,

and lots of questions to answer, so, let's get started. back on the battlefield. israel and hamas resume fighting after a collapse of an already fragile, weeklong truce that allowed the release of more than 100 hostages held in gaza, and 240 palestinian personnel. we'll have the latest on whether another pause in the two month war is possible. deal or no deal? white the most indicted, one-time ex president in u.s. history, and some of his high-level cronies, can't forget about a plea deal in georgia. and we stinging setbacks of trump's claim of presidential immunity. the guardian -- bigelow is here with his exclusive reporting. and so long, santos! the republican freshman congressman accused of loading up on botox and lavish spending sprees on donors times is kicked out of the house in just one of many embarrassing moments for his party this week. congresswoman jasmine crockett from the great state of texas joins me live to break it all down. all that and more is coming up.

>> andy good saturday morning to you all, i'm katie phang. we begin today's show with the latest on the israel-hamas war. this morning, israel is bombarding targets in southern gaza after a weeklong cease-fire fell apart on friday. hasse in the fighting saw the release of more than 100 hostages held in gaza, and 240 palestinian person are held in israeli jails. israel says its forces struck more than 400 hamas targets in the last 24 hours. and according to e health ministry, and hamas and gaza, doing 100 palestinians have been killed since e fighting has resumed. this comes as nbc news has leard that israeli military analts warned their superiors at least three months ago of hamas's plan doesn't start a war.

but reportedly, were dismissed by their superiors. i spoke to nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez just moments ago. raf, what's the latest, and is there any chance for a return to another pause in fighting? >> well, katie, amount to start by giving our viewers a sense of the geography here. we are looking out over northern gaza. it's relatively quiet now, but in just the last hour, we have seen plumes of smoke from israeli airstrikes. we have heard the thunder of outgoing israeli artillery, and just the last couple of minutes, small arms fire from inside of gaza. but the focus right now is further south. it's real, overnight, stepping up strikes on the city of khan yunis. it says that that is where hamas leaders are hiding after they left gaza city. but it is also where hundreds of thousands of displaced palestinians of aliens are seeking shelter after the israeli military told them to flee their homes in the north and katie, it is not clear

right now where they could go to try to be safe. the hamas-run health ministry in gaza says more than 200 people have been killed since the cease-fire broke down on friday morning. and that team on the ground inside gaza says they are seeing in hospitals overflowing with civility wounded civilians, including many, many children. we heard overnight from secretary of state antony blinken, the united states is blaming hamas for the breakdown of this cease-fire. they say hamas reneged on its commitment to continue releasing israeli women being held hostage inside of gaza. the number of hostages around 130 still, after those seven days of releases. but israel lowering that number overnight, saying six people who previously were thought to be alive and held hostage, in fact, were killed on october 7th or are dying in captivity. and i could tell you, katie, it has been absolute agony for the

families of the remaining hostages, as they have seen this cease-fire deal breakdown. they have seen the fighting resume after a week of getting their hopes up, of seeing other families being reunited. qatar, which has been the mediator for the cease-fire agreement, says it is continuing to go back and forth between israel and hamas. it is still trying to broker a new agreement, which could bring an end to the fighting. it could mean more hostages coming out, but for now, there is no deal, and the fighting continues. katie? >> how absolutely heartbreakg. nbc news foreign rrpondent raf sanchez, thanks for being here. i appreciate you, and stay safe. our coverage of the israel hamas war continues ahead. washington postinion writer and msnbc contributor jennifer reuben joins us to talk about the horrific sexual violence perpetrated by hamas against israeli women. why we're not hearing much about it. that's, ahead in the next half hour of the katie phang show. turning now to politics here in

the united states. controversial congressman george santos might still be controversial, but is no longer a congressman. after surviving two previous attempts on friday, 311 members, including 105 republicans, voted to expel santos from congress. the six ever and the first in more than 20 years. a scathing report released by the house ethics committee seemed to be the last straw, electing santos use campaign funds for his own personal spending, including on designer goods, botox, and adult content site onlyfans. he's also facing a 24 count federal indictment. just hours after the vote, facility voters in the capital were already changing the locks and removing his name from his office in preparation for who will be next to represent new york's third congressional district. nbc news white house correspondent allie raffa joins me now. ali, good morning. any response from the white house about this rare and historic ouster of a sitting congressman on the heels of that blistering ethics probe?

>> yeah, katie. good morning. there hasn't been any reaction to this news from the white house, and i wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon. but now that the santos saga is officially over, the race to fill his seats could impact and already very tight republican with georgia in the house, because it's possible to more members could leave in the near future, and that's including former house speaker kevin mccarthy, and if they do go, it means republicans will only control the chamber by one vote. so, all eyes are now on to your governor, kathy hochul, who said yesterday that she will move forward with plans to schedule a special election to replace santos, which will have to be held in the next three months, now, this is a district president biden won in 2020. this is expected to be a very competitive and contentious race, potentially a bellwether of what we may see in 2024, as democrats try to pick this seat up. they believe her chances that winning a majority in 2024 run

right through new york. and while this is a bit of a relief for republicans in the house who felt that santos had been a major distraction since being elected, his ousting is still been very divisive within the gop conference, with more republicans voting for santos to stay in congress then not. so, there is definitely still a debate within the party about what happened yesterday. as far as how this impacts the next few, very, very busy months in congress, remember, the risk of another potential government shutdown looming and funding for israel and ukraine still undecided, these very tight margins that just got tighter will lead to much more drama unfolding on capitol hill as those deadlines on those key priorities come up, katie. >> nbc news white house correspondent, allie raffa. thanks, as always, for being here, and this morning, we're still waiting to hear and learn more about the funeral arrangements for retired supreme court justice, sandra day o'connor. she passed away yesterday at the age of 93. in 1981 o'connor was the first

woman to become a united states supreme court justice, after being appointed by president ronald reagan. she went on to serve on the high court for 24 years, retiring in 2006. although she was appointed by president ronald reagan, she played a role as being a pivotal swing vote during her time on the bench. just to simulate of sums up her impact, calling her appointment a pivotal event in the history of the supreme court and the nation. joining me, now i have the honor of having fani evangelist, partner and co-chair of the global litigation practice at the law firm of gibson and done. she also clerked for justice sandra day o'connor. i want to thank you so much for joining me this morning. i thought you know, a lot of us know of justice sandra day o'connor, you clerked for her, but also, you know her on a personal level. can you share with our viewers here first, the kind of significant interaction with her? >> thank, you katie. thank you for having me, i will never forget the first time i met the justice. i was actually clerking in lost angeles at the time, and she

called me to set up an interview, and she said, you don't need to fly all the way to washington. we'll wait until i'm in phoenix. and you can come see me there. and so, i flew to phoenix, and she drove to the airport herself to pick me up. >> the supreme court justice pick you up herself? >> she did. >> and was that her style, from what you knew about her? >> it absolutely was. she was so warm. she was so kind. she was so generous. she was always thinking of others and what she could do to help and to make them feel at ease. then, she took me to lunch. >> so, i have to ask you, you know, as a female lawyer, litigator, in a typically male dominated world, was it specifically her and her role as the first female supreme court justice that make you want to clerk for her? >> absolutely. she changed the legal profession for everyone, but for, me she change my life. i am so grateful and i was so

honored to be able to clerk for her. there is no greater honor and no bigger dream i ever had. >> so, one quote that she wrote that i thought was really important to share with you and your feet words, i think, kind of really sums up a lot about her. it was in roe v. wade, which people may not know, she was a part of the decision, and kind of the major decision of the majority in that case. she emphasized the importance of precedence, and that's kind of always been at issue as of late, when we talk about scotus justices. she said the court must take care to speak and act in ways that allow people to accept his decisions on the terms the court claims for them as grounded truly in principle, not as compromises, with social and political pressure. i mean, that sounds to me like somebody who was a principled person who understood the highest court of the land is creating precedent for all americans. >> absolutely. she wasn't in prevent a list. she believed in common sense

and also, compassion. she knew exactly where her heart was and she was a brilliant lawyer and brilliant justice. >> and you have the opportunity to clerk with her on her last full year when she served on that bench. but was it like to be a part of that very active term? >> it was historic. and it was so sad for all of us, but particularly her clerks, to hear about her retirement. it was the end of such a significant chapter, and so, for us to be there, and remember the day when she told us, she took us out on a hike, she made us sandwiches, as she was known to do, and she sat us down and she told us, and the gravity of that moment and what it meant for our country, wait on us. and also, just the feeling that we or so grateful that we got to be there for her last term. >> so, i also want to viewers to understand that not only was

she a brilliant jurist, but this is somebody you actually kept in touch with after you clocked with her. what kind of continuing relationship you have with the justice after you clerked? >> we stayed in very close touch. i remember when she was the grand marshal of the rose parade in los angeles, and she came and i rode with her and she invited me to that with her. i visited her frequently. i went to stanford to hear her speak. she kept her clerks close. she treated us like family. she called our children her grand-clerks. she could not have been more warm and loving and wonderful as a justice and as a mentor, really, to all of us. so -- >> how does it make you feel to know that when she first went out into the job market, she couldn't even get a job, and then, she finally got a job offer as a legal secretary, then, consider that trajectory

of her career. i mean, for somebody who spent such quality time with supreme court justice sandra day o'connor, what do you think about that when you hear that about her history? >> it's so remarkable, and to think back to the way the legal profession was, it's unbelievable. she has changed her for all of us. she opened the doors for all of us behind her. she made it possible for thousands of women to go to law school, to become lawyers, to think anything was possible. and i am among them. >> yanni evangelist, the chair, co-chair of the global litigation group at gibson done. which, by the way, feel worse, this is a very big deal to have her here. thank you for being here to share that insight into the justice. i appreciate it. >> thank you, katie. >> still to come this morning on the katie phang show, a hammer searching for a nail. after months of relentless harassment from the progression of republicans, under biden says he's ready willing to testify publicly, and on the record, before the gop led house oversight committee. but now, republicans are definitely trying to stop him

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the script on house republicans, after receiving a subpoena to testify behind closed doors, the president son offered to testify publicly before the house oversight committee on december 13th. the committee's chairman james

comer, quickly shut down the request, demanding hunters first interview beheld privately before allowing for an open hearing. democratic congressman jamie raskin blasted his republican colleagues for opposing the offer, saying it was a quote, epic humiliation. it shows they are quote, simply not interested in the facts and have no confidence in their case. since announcing their impeachment inquiry in september, the gop has been looking for a smoking gun that ties the president to his son's foreign business dealings but, so far, they have yet to show any evidence that connects president biden to any crime. joining me now is texas congresswoman unsinkable rights attorney, jasmine crockett. congresswoman, moe is grateful for you to get up and get our show going. let's start with a clip of one of congressman comer's many excuses for not wanting hunter biden to testify publicly. >> we need to ask him hundreds of questions. if he comes in for one hearing, with 24 members having five

minutes each cast questions, with the democrats yelling and screaming like they do every hearing, we would probably get about 30 to 35 questions. and >> so the gop, congresswoman, certainly has not cornered the market on decorum. you sit on the house oversight committee. would it truly be disruptive in any way to have hunter biden testify publicly? >> i mean, it may be, absolutely. i mean think about the fact that marjorie taylor greene decided she wanted to show his new foods, because she felt as if that was relevant. so, an impeachment inquiry, so, yeah. it may be disruptive. but they have been disruptive this entire time, and katie. let me point out the fact to you that there has been an investigation into hunter ever since trump was president. they have been trying to go after hunter biden, and now, they have tried to tag hunter to the president, and honestly, they've been shamed every corner. i applaud hunter biden and his team for saying listen, if y'all want to do this, we're

gonna do this out in the open. we are going to be transparent about it, but of, course they don't want transparency. what they want if they want to go behind closed doors. i got news for y'all. if, for some reason, there is a closed-door deposition, i will be in attendance at that closed-door deposition to make sure we get some truth out of what happens. >> and house republicans are considering holding a quote, formal house vote this month to authorize their impeachment inquiry into president biden, like you, said they've already started investigating, have come up with nothing. so, do you think this, quote formal vote in any way will strengthen their position at all, if it manages to pass? no. i don't, actually, katie, they're trying to hold this next week. so, when we go back into session, what they want to do is they want to hold a vote on the impeachment inquiry, you know, the vote they say they didn't need when kevin mccarthy decided he was going to officially call for the impeachment inquiry, the one they said that well, nancy pelosi says she didn't need it, but nancy pelosi got, it right?

the one that kevin mccarthy didn't have the votes for. so, they are talking about trying to do that. i think they're trying to bring some credence to this clown show. and they are trying to say hey, look, see, now we've got the support. but those votes don't mean anything, and honestly, they are doing their bootleg investigation anyway. so, it's not gonna change anything, but i do look forward to hunter showing up in public, if that is something that comer decides he wants to backpedal on, and re-extent. >> before we switch gears, i do want to note, comer actually gave options for people like hunter biden to appear to testify either publicly or otherwise. so now, we'll talk about backpedalling. those words will come back to bite him, but let's switch gears to one of her favorite topics, which is george santos. as i stated earlier in this show, crazy george santos, still crazy, but he won't be a congressman at the same time. i'm watching this man's twitter

feed. i will not lie. i mean, he literally wants to burn the house down, but is this just a sign of proof positive, why somebody like george santos had no business sitting in the halls of congress to begin with? >> it absolutely is, but also, he does have a lot of colleagues that probably should be hit congress, either. the difference that george doesn't recognize it's his constituents in york had no idea about who he was at all that he does. listen, i don't think marjorie taylor greene should be there, i don't think lauren boebert should be there, i have a long list of grievances with people that i don't believe should be there, but when their constituents elect them, they know who they are. i mean, they know lauren boebert likes to do questionable things in the theater. they note marjorie taylor greene, well, yeah. i'm gonna leave it there. but nonetheless, they know who they are, and they continuously let them, even george santos, he actually can run to get his

seat back, just like the justice in tennessee. if new york wants to send him back, he will come back and we won't end up doing another expulsion. i doubt he will run for the special election. i think he knows his district doesn't want him. but he can and he can run in the regular, and even if and when he goes to prison, he can run then, because of course, the only place that you can run for office after being convicted of federal felony crimes would be on the federal level. >> congresswoman jasmine crockett, -- as always. thank you. i appreciated. >> have a good. monk >> coming up next, no man is above the law. trump's latest legal hail mary to avoid accountability in the d.c. election interference case, shot down by federal judge chutkan. and the surprising admission from trump's lawyers on why they're so committed to closing this case before voters head to the polls next year. keep it right here, you're watching msnbc. watching msnbc. it wastalking to a specialized urolog

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motion up when we got the path going. >> i think the opinion was striking for two reasons. i think one, as you say, the -- was so damning and so explosive

but kind of approaching of trump's arguments, i, mean he reminded him, yet again, that presidents are not kings and he does not have this absolute immunity to dismiss these criminal cases. but at the same time, as you say, you know, trump's lawyers always knew that they were going to lose at the district court, and they inefficient a months long circuit court process, and potentially, taking to the supreme court, because i know justices like brett kavanaugh have previously expressed interest in dealing with issues like presidential immunity, which he can to two in the trump v. thompson in the litigation of the january six committee. >> but the d.c. circuit court of appeals, which would be the apple appellate court that we hear, and -- from starstruck can's order and ruling yesterday. also, yesterday said in a civil case was brought against him, crowns of presidential immunity doesn't exist for you, similarly. so, the sea appellate system really like that inviting to donald trump right now, considering what we've seen so far? >> i think it depends, i think

that was obviously a bad ruling for him, but with a circuit in that instance said well, you can't claim absolute immunity to shield yourself from civil litigation, period, but they did allow and open the possibility for him to kind of raise the fence to some kind of race evidence and saying, you could still race this as a defense, but you just can't use it to escape any sort of civil liability at all, and it doesn't. >> and hugo, people think less these cases, which we need, -- style boards to keep track of, as people think they are existing in silos, they're not. the reason why is there's a lot of repetitive arguments that are being raised by donald trump. for example, in fulton county, hour-long hearing yesterday, the say that the lawyer for trump, first time in, court gets up making similar arguments you seen. presidential immunity, first amendment free speech protection against that georgia indictment. if your trump's lawyers, aren't you saying, this may not work so well for, us even here in

georgia? >> the one thing they are relying on this the confluence of all of these cases coming together at the same time. you know, we talked about -- >> we could talk about this all the time. >> right. but i think it is particular significance, and it came up yesterday, because we were talking about the trial schedules and stay out of trump's way, we have this trial in march, and to get this trial in florida, and -- >> the world's smallest violin playing for donald trump, in my opinion, but go ahead. >> we have an indication of how judge mackie in the fulton county case will decide in terms of setting a trial date, but there were questions yesterday as to how it's going to fit in with the rest of his criminal trials, and seeing that this one was indicted last, in theory, i, mean we presume you would think it would come up in the two federal trials, and we don't huddling know if those will go to trial. as are currently scheduled,, so i think there is wanting to move on the delay. >> you and i have been following fulton county so closely. what was your read on the fact

that mcafee yesterday would not declare i'm going to take that states offer of an august 2024 trial date? >> it's very interesting. i think that's a lot of moving parts. you know, we have previously reported that the fulton county d.a.'s office has kind of privately told the judge that there may be more -- coming. >> except for your exclusive report men, who's not gonna get a playoff or, though? >> we reported earlier this week that trump, meadows, and giuliani are not eligible, seen as eligible currently, four plea deals, but meadows particularly as well, because he is someone who was itching for, one. but hugo, when you say not eligible, you're not seeing some statutory legal reason why they're not eligible, this is more strategic, from your reporting on what i read, from the d.a.'s office on not going to offer them deals. >> it's kind of an internal designation that they are made to say, you know, who are the people we don't want to gift deals to? who are the people we want to go to trial against? and they have kind of drawn this line at this point at trump, meadows, and giuliani. everyone, else they are still

open to having discussions about plea deals with. but those three, as far as we understand, are off the table. >> you think, quickly, do you think that single, sun, the strength of their case is if you are fani willis, it means they don't need somebody like mark meadows or they don't need someone like rudy giuliani to cooperate, which all those guilty pleas so far have included cooperation. do you think fani's wilson's case is so strong guys like, i don't need them to prove my case against donald trump? >> i think it is notable, the evidence that was in the indictment against trump that's fani willis had, which we saw in the d.c. indictment. she had a lot of evidence that was separate from the january six committee found, about the federal investigation found, and, also more well mark meadows. she had a lot of points in the indictments about how meadows was coordinating with state officials, where he was giving both in his capacity, maybe as a white house official, but also, what he was doing on behalf of trump as a campaign,

as a presidential candidate. so, i think there were notable instances of evidence that fani willis had, but the federal indictment did not have. i think it speaks to the strength of her argument. >> so you and i, over christmas, we're gonna shut down and look at all the moving pieces. we're going to came out who's gonna go when and that sabrina spent their christmas break. larry moe and cooler, currently, they're not getting plea deals from fani willis. you got -- from the guardian, thanks for being. here and coming up after a quick break, breaking the silence. inside the harrowing accounts of sexual violence israeli women suffered during hamas's october 7th terror attack and. what justice for them looks like the fog of war. you are watching the katie phang show, only on msnbc. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪ we're travelling all across america, talking to people about their hearts.

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torture. first responders say women and girls that were caught in the rampage were brutalized sexually, basically tortured, and killed in the most horrific and unimaginable ways. in a washington post opinio column, did her highlights the bizarre silence from human rights committees, with international allies not speaking up about these reports of unspeakable violce reuben writes, quote, the attacks were so crew soman barbaric the impulse to look away can be overwhelming. and to get, what other massive trust of these against women the core, there's no shortage of outrage and condemnation. one is left wondering, why israeli women and girls count for so little? in the eyes of so many? joining me now, jennifer reuben, an msnbc political connell,'s opinion writer at the washington post, and the author of resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. jennifer, it's, always it's good to have you and especially on this topic. i wanted to point out, it's really police, forensic teams, they are actually currently investigating several sexual

assault cases that were perpetrated by hamas terrorists. how has rape then uses a weapon in this war? >> i think it's very obvious that the game plan, which was very explicit to hamas terrorists, included rape. it was to kidnap, to kill, to rape women. and a couple of the hamas terrorists who were captured, told this to investigators. so, this was clearly an integral part of what they were doing. rape, unfortunately, as you, know katie, has always been used as a weapon of war. and, here it was, just as you said, in very gruesome fashion. we have first accounts. there was a woman at the music festival, for example, hiding in the bushes who witnessed a gang rape. we have the first responders. we have people at the morgue. we have the accounts that were videotaped, and some of them erased, by the way, but the hamas terrorists. so there's overwhelming

evidence, and they have to say, some of our persistence seems to have paid off just in the last 24 or 48 hours. for the first time, the u.n. general assembly has identified hamas as perpetrating sex crimes, for the first time, has used tomas by name, has identified them. and just today, we have word that one of the groups that has been unfortunately silent, but he won women organization, has also come out and said that this occurred, we're investigating, it is deplorable. so, i think, very very slowly, very blatantly, the international community is waking up. but one has to ask, why has it taken so long? and frankly, even the coverage in this country has been very slight. the washington post, my employer, said one story on it. i have not seen it widely covered in other print

magazines or newspapers or online, it's covered widely in the english language it's really press, so, if people want to get informed, they could look to the times of israel. they can look to jerusalem post, they can look to parts. but there are a number of factors that have prevented this from coming out. one, of course, is they were simply not focused on this as they were collecting the bodies. these women have been killed after they were raped. so, they were processing hundreds of bodies at the more. they were not conducting what would normally be an organized procedure to collect evidence. it is also the case that with all sexual crimes, the family, the family members, the witnesses, are traumatized. they don't want to speak about it. but i think we also have to come to grips that there is a different standard for israel. there has been such an international effort to dehumanize israel, to label them falsely as colonizers.

to perpetrate the falsity that they are engaged in genocide. that the international community, and even human rights activists and women's groups in this country, have been loath to come out and say these women are victims. this, of course, is moral insanity. there is no limit to the amount of compassion we can show, owning and recognizing the suffering of one group of people does not diminish the suffering of another group, and it's absolutely critical that these stories speak, gathered the evidence we gather, it, will i believe, be an effort to prosecute in israel. there should be outrage on the international scene. these stories should be told, and remember, here in the united states, we've gone through the years of saying belief the women, and yet here, it has taken so long to get any recognition that this actually occurred. so, i commend you for giving this. i hope others will follow and i

think it's important that we return the humanity, the dignity, to these women that they deserve. >> and jennifer, to your point, it is not just israeli women. it is any women, internationally, that have sustained or suffered sexual violence at the hands of terrorists or any other perpetrators. i do want to emphasize, especially as a former prosecutor, the israeli law enforcement and the other members of the united nations that are commencing an investigation or looking at the evidence in this case. the gopro cameras. the drones. the security footage. the images themselves, the confessions, stuff like that to be able to build their cases. but i agree that highlighting the horrific nature of what's happened in this instance is critical, not only, again, for the israeli victims, the women, the young girls, but little children that suffered, but also, for all women globally. so jennifer, thanks for being here. i appreciate. it's >> thank you. i really appreciate it. >> and still ahead, speak now or forever hold your peace. white magnetic's guest says we

gotta stop treating election polls as full scale news events, and why the stakes are too high to obsess over snapshots of 2024. molly jong-fast joins us straight ahead, don't go anywhere. n't go anywhere allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen. most common side effects were nausea and sleepiness. ask about ubrelvy. [city ambience sounds] [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx] introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. [camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing it for nearly a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting.

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this life is in our blood. give the gift of family heritage with ancestry. america. we may have a bit of a polling problem, and the problem is not with the poll numbers, with full dependents. you want to pull that shows biden doing well ahead of 24? we've got a poll for you. we want to poll showing trump

doing well ahead of 2024? we've got plenty of polls that show that. you want supple to serve as a political advisor of sorts? we've got that poll,. to look, polls can be useful. they can be informative and educational but, let's face it, polls cannot tell us in december of 2023, who will win an election in november of 2024. don't believe me? let's ask hillary clinton. as affinity fares molly john fest puts it, let's stop treating polls as actual news events. joining me now is molly jong-fast, special correspondent for vanity fair and the host of the fast politics podcast. i mean, molly, they first question out of the gate, this to point everything we know, shootings do away with polls altogether, then? what's the utility and having them >> poles are good for seeing a pattern. right? they could promoting the trajectory. so if, if someone is pulling really well in wisconsin and in the polling less well, okay, you could see that. that's useful. but the reality is national polls have almost no use

because we don't elect the president that way, right? we elect with an electoral college. so, national polls, i just threw out. who cares? winning popular vote was meaningless in this country. >> so a question as we, as journalist, how do we use a poll, then, you're telling me it's not a predictor of what's gonna happen and it's even, unless it's kind of in our backyard, we may actually have any significance. >> so, i think the way to think of it is this. there's a guy called daniel bernstein who wrote the boards to, wrote this book in 1962, and he was sort of the sort of forced to work and pr as a public relations as a crisis. if he came up this idea of pseudo-events. pseudo-events are events that are created for news coverage. like, a press conference. so, you look at a poll like a press conference, so, people don't take press conferences largely as breaking news, right? congress has press conferences all the time, sometimes, or covered, sometimes recovered on c-span.

they're just data points, but their data points with we reposition has tried to show you what they want to show you. and that's what i think we should take possess. right? there can be useful information in for them but they should not drive the news cycle. and one of the things that's really destructive is you see a lot of opinion pieces written off polls as a news peg. so for, example, i was working on this piece, there were like, three pieces on the washington post site that were written with polling as fact. so, for example, the border comes back to bite democrats, because it's based on a polling. so, it's based on the supposition that the border is somehow a problem for democrats because of a poll. and that in itself is not, it just sort of a natural bit of news that may or may not be true. but, then it ships and there are two, which is really problematic. so, let's give credit where credit is due.

jay rosen has been actually sounding this alarm for years, saying it's not the odds, but the stakes. i'm gonna say it again, not the odds, but the stakes. the focus that chases should be not who has what chances of winning but, the consequences for american democracy. i don't know if you could underscore that anymore in terms of its importance, especially as you see here today, elise, my question for you is, but should journalists be telling its readers, its viewers, et cetera, what's at stake? it's that really a place for journalists, or should they just be just the facts, ma'am? >> but the facts are what's at stake, right? i think the place where you could see this the most is 2016. if you look at the number of pieces that are written about hillary clinton as a fait accompli, because our polling was 90%. as low as 78% where this comes out but mostly in the 90, so, the idea was she was going to be the next president, and so,

you didn't need to deal with the stakes of a donald trump presidency, because you are so focused on the outs of a hillary clinton presidency. and that is fundamentally the problem, and jay rosenstein to say and what he was a journalist and professional, and i think is really right. we should be looking, as journalists, we should be pro democracy. and that is ultimately the goal. because with democracy, there will be no more journalists. >> so, what value, that, if at all, can we continue to use polls, moving forward? because they're never going to go away. i both can see that point. i hear what you're saying, and i agree. they should not be used as facts to drive a narrative, if you're going to a certain narrative, do so. so, what is the remaining utility to move forward, considering it's not the odds are the stakes? >> i think polls are the most useful for a campaigns, because campaigns need to know how

they're doing. i would say i think a lot about wisconsin. we had a senate race there were mandela barnes was in polls, losing by ten points, ultimately, he lost by a very slim margin. maybe 1%. because on the day of the vote, that's what counts, right? what happened that day. >> remember, he had a lot of trouble fundraising and you, know if he had been shown us being so close, he would've raced more money, and he might've won. so, i do think polls are really dangerous, public polling. but i do think if you are campaign are looking at polls we are looking at where, i think what you really need is a very high quality polls. >> that's my next thing. the actual way, the means by which the data is obtained. because i'm a big fan of data. i will traffic and facts, evidence, science, what's going on with the pull some selves? >> that's the question. who are the people who are picking up on known numbers on their cell phones? >> assuming you know it's a phone call. >> i think you're better off with the sort of high quality

polls that sort of find the person, track them, you know, get as much data as possible, but certainly, we are not in the golden age of pulling. >> the golden age of pulling. my roots may be getting there. molly john fast, thanks for being here. thanks for all of you for joining me this morning. we're gonna be back here tomorrow are gonna welcome just responded for the nation and front of the show, girelli mystal, on the randomly appointed trump who gutted that recent voting rights act, making it unenforceable and half a dozen states. and flex for the 14th amendment, you know, that section three and donald trump. remember, you can keep up with us by following the katie phang show on instagram, tiktok, an x, formerly known as twitter. say to, the saturday show with my friend, jonathan capehart, it's coming up next. sy to get lost in investment research. introducing j.p. morgan personal advisors. hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. i'm adding downy unstopables to my wash.

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new fighting between israel and hamas, as a temporary humanitarian pause comes to an end. david ignatius, and evelyn farkas, join me to take a closer look at what's at stake, and whether the october 7th massacre that started it all could have been prevented. beware donald trump. a federal judge rejects his attempt to dismiss its election interference case, and it's getting harder to dismiss the warning signs of a second trump presidency. neil conte call here to talk about what's at stake. >> long