extremism. this is where we can build a new south and really revive democracy in this nation. >> just those words that he said on the show, i'm here in my capitol office right now, it tells you something might be going in the right direction. guys, thank you so much. a really appreciate this. representative jones, always a pleasure to see you. charles, always a pleasure to see you my friend. thank you to both of you. thank you for the documentary. charles blow writer and producer of the new hbo documentary called, south to black power streaming now on max. justin jones the democratic state representative from tennessee. both great friends of the show. coming, up a pair of explosive new federal rulings to clear that donald trump is not immune from criminal prosecution, nor from civil liability for his role in the january 6th riots. and today's meeting of the velshi banned book club, we are going to explore a novel which, for decades, has become a right of passage for women around the country. i am talking about sylvia plaid's magnum opus, the belgian.

the 2023 ewing climate conference, also known as cop 28, officially kicked off this week in dubai. it is already mired in controversy. all of that in more ahead in another hour of velshi starting right now! good morning to you it is saturday december the 2nd i am ali velshi, we begin this morning with major new developmts that will have big implications fordonald trump's legal defense for his upcoming cases. new and important rulings from federal judges in d.c. clarify that the former president is not immune from criminal prosecution or nor from civil liability for his actions on january the six. late last night judge tanya chutkan struck down the former presidents attempt to throw out the federal election interference case against him based on his claims of presidential immunity. it was one of four motions to dismiss that his time filed in october. the pull of

in history of the constitution and concludes that they, quote, do not support that contention. it goes on, quote, no court earning the branch of government has ever accepted it. this court will not so hold. whatever immunities a sitting president may enjoy, the united states has only won chief executive at a time in that position does not confer a lifelong, get out of jail free, pass. former president enjoy no special conditions on their federal criminal liability. defendant may be subject to federal investigation, indictment, prosecution, conviction, and punishment for any criminal acts undertaken while in office. and quote. judge chutkan made it clear that beyond the fact that trump's broad claims of presidential immunity are not rooted in -- it is in the publics interest that those be held accountable -- she continues, quote, the public has an undefeated

interest in promoting respect for the law, to turn crime, protecting itself, and rehabilitating offenders. all of those interests will be thwarted by granting former presidents absolute criminal immunity. most importantly, a former presidents exposure to federal criminal liability is essential to fulfilling our constitutional promise of equal justice under the law. throughout the document check-in also drives home the fact that in america no one is beyond approach. including those held in the highest office of the land it argued that one of the features that separate america from other nations and other leaders at the time of its founding. she even goes as far as the reference examples at fourth by george washington. quote, perhaps no one understood the compelling public interest in the rule of law better than our first former president, george washington. his decision to voluntarily leave office after two terms mark an extraordinary divergence from nearly every world leader who had proceeded him. ushering in the sacred

tradition of peacefully transitioning presidential power, a tradition that stood unbroken until january 6th 2021. chutkan also struck down a second motion to dismiss the case rejecting trump's first amendment argument emphasizing that it is, quote, while established that the first amendment does not protect speech that is used as an instrument of a crime, and quote. chutkan's decision came our after three courts in the circuit court of appeals rule of the trump is also not immune from civil liability. that ruling allowed for a number of civil suits that are seeking to hold trump accountable for the events of january six to proceed, including ones filed by capitol police officers and by members of congress. these varied opinions on the presidential immunity question will be likely read unsteady for years to come. they address one of the unresolved questions that has arisen as the judicial system considers for the very, very,

first time the prosecution of a former president of the united states who is also, currently, campaigning for another four years in the white house. they also highlight trump's far-reaching attempts to escape prosecution, which he was on full display in a courtroom in atlanta georgia yesterday where trump's lawyers steve sat out appeared for the first time in argued against setting a trial there right now in the fulton county interference case. >> if your client does win the election in 2024, could he even be tried in 2025? >> the answer to that is i believe that the laws, his duty as president of the united states, his trial would not take place, if at all, until the end of his term in office. >> january 20th 2029 with them at the earliest possible date, according to donald trump's lawyers, that the defense

believes this case could go to trial if donald trump wins a second term in office. joining us now is stuart stevens, look senior and visor for the lincoln project. author of the books, it was all a lie how the republican party became donald trump. and another book, the conspiracy to end america. five ways my old party is driving our democracy to to autocracy. also with us former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele. host of the michael steele podcast, msnbc political analyst, starting next month he will be one of the co-hosts of the brand-new msnbc program, the weekend preparing next month. it will be a beautiful lead in. you guys will be the one day listen to all morning to get ready for my show. good morning to both of you. michael, glad to have you so close. welcome to the family. here is the thing, we hope and believe the legal system will hold donald trump to account. we know donald trump thinks otherwise. we know that there is a possibility of delays in all of the significant trials that he's facing.

one wonders in hopes, whether or not there is any political mechanism within something called a republican party, that could deal with donald trump, or no? >> no, there is no mechanism for that. i think that we really need to disabuse ourselves of that notion. understand exactly what is in front of us. i think a lot of people misunderstand what is happening with a lot of the machinations by the trump team. such as it is, this is not about breaking the system. this is about weakening it enough to, at some point, it will break. to create doubt, to create areas that are less stable than others. you see this multifaceted approach to the prosecutions. and defense that is really built around this idea of throwing stuff up that time it's up to system, pushes up

against the traditional notions of how this process works. we see this play out, ali, with this idea that the gag order. how the system is bending over backwards to give trump as much leeway as possible because of his, quote, first amendment rights relative to his role as a candidate for office. that would not apply to you and me were we running for office. quite honestly, or just as private citizens. you see them stretching the system to the point -- like anything, if he stretch it to appoint it may not break but it will be so weak, it won't be able to sustain whatever it is you wanted to do. it might as well be broken. >> let's take that analogy further, stewart. there is a plan, called project 2025, where donald trump has outlined where he becomes president of the united states again, it is not going to be that bumbling clown car was in

the first term. he tries things out, get bad advice. they are going to clean house. whatever expression he wants to use, they are going to get rid of people they think will undercut them. will uphold justice. this idea that maybe he doesn't go to trial until january 2029, if he doesn't go to trial and he becomes president again, they're just may never be a trial for donald trump. >> one of the inevitable traits when autocrats emerge from democracy is a detail what they want to do in advance. if you take a step back from this and think about how what he is saying is, we are having a discussion about whether or not the guy who will be the republican nominee can use that process to escape 91 counts? i mean, how did this happen? how did this happen to this party that michael not used to be? and michael steele is, god love

him. this normalization of stuff that, at its base level, is incredibly corruptive. basically just insane that we are even considering a republican nominee who is on trial in three states now, possibly more? it just shows this complete collapse of the republican party as any sort of moral governing force. >> what happens, michael? on monday night liz cheney will be talking to rachel maddow. you have the stuff that mitt romney has just written. you have seen these departures are various republicans who decided that they are not gonna run again. what is the point of staying? what can you do? you are one of the few people who are not a former republican, used to call yourself a republican. which says to me that you intend to do something or you hope that there is something you can do to fight and bring this party back. what is it?

>> part of it, hallie, -- i get that question a lot, as you can imagine. my friend stewart did. you looked at me like, do, you go work that out. the reality of it is, for me, i come out from a number of points. i knew what drew me in as a young kid growing up in d.c.. those values, those ideas, still matter. the idea of individual liberty is an anathema now to the leadership of this party. they really want to jettison that to benefit one person. someone like myself and a few others wish to stand up with a mirror and say, look how you look. see how you are acting. this is not just not what the party is about, this is not what the country is about. the easy thing is to walk away, right? not to disparage anyone else who made that decision. the harder part is to stay and

to show, every day, the fallacy and the lies that they are presenting to the country. it is harder for them to dismiss you when you are still in the room. they may not want you in the room, but you are in the room. so, i am still the former chairman of the republican national committee. this party, its current leadership both politically and in terms of policy on capitol hill, is out of line with the country, period. my goal and the goal of others is to remind folks about that. >> let's talk about that for a second. he watched the presidential primaries are now some interesting things are happening, right? chris christie's not getting a lot of traction. a number of candidates are gone. ron desantis seems to be weakening. supporters who might have been supporters of the republican party that you are once a part of or that michael is still a part of, or shifting. some are running to nikki haley, who is gaining in the polls after a pretty good couple of

debate performances. she is still 30 points behind donald trump. nowhere in any history anywhere anyone made up pretty much half of that gap, let alone a 30-point gap. there are some appearances of normalcy showing up every now and then for a debate in the republican party. your thoughts on that? on i was part of the bush brain trans. we took a sympathy something point lead in 2000 and lost by something like 19. so, people would have to look at. that i think something unusual can happen in this primary but i do believe at the end of the day trump will be the winner. what was so disappointing about nikki haley's she was onstage and raised her hand, she said she would support donald trump if he was convicted of a crime, the crime being to basically overthrow the government of the united states. i don't see why that isn't disqualifying for anyone who wants to be president. when she gets up there and says, i think it sounds to those of

us who are part of this party, it has echoes of the party that we once knew but you cannot ignore this fundamental thing that she's willing to support donald trump. she will stand on stage with donald trump if he is the nominee and support him. like, i don't see how you can do that, frankly, and call yourself a patriot. this is a man who is running against democracy, very openly. i think that we have to embrace that. it is difficult to wrap your mind around. but it is essential that we do. >> you are right, stewart. the idea that some of these conversations that you and i have had, michael and had, even michael will have, for months to come, it is just weird! i appreciate you showing up for a little bit of weird on a weekend morning for me. stuart stevens, senior visor to the lincoln prime. and michael steele's former advisor to the republican national committee, as he invited, us and soon to be a colleague of mine here at

msnbc. quick programming note, on monday, former republican representative liz cheney of wyoming joined my friend rachel maddow to discuss the current state of the gop and the threat the former president donald trump poses to american democracy. tune into the rachel mountain show this monday evening nine pm eastern only on msnbc. still ahead, the temporary truce between israel and hamas has ended. the bombardment of gaza has resumed. we will go to tel aviv right after the break. plus, a crucial meeting between world leaders on climate change is underway in dubai. desperately necessary aim of the meeting overshadowed by controversy. today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is featuring a book that unequivocal-y deserves a spot amongst the modern classics, the bell jar. by sylvia platte, masterfully examining what depression and anxiety looks like with razor sharp writing and even with humor. it is much more than that. for decades, readers have open the pages of this book read it as a right of passage. do not miss this important conversation. conversation

so when minds grow, opportunities follow. ♪

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of gaza on friday morning following the collapse of a weeklong truce designed to facilitate a hostage exchange between israel and hamas. during the truce hamas released over 100 israeli and foreign hostages. israel released 240 palestinian prisoners that it withholding according to the new york times, a majority of those prisoners had not been convicted of any crimes. overnight, israeli airstrikes intensified targeting areas across the gaza strip killing at least 200 people according to the gaza health ministry. on friday, leaflets warning palestinians to move further south was dropped in southern garrett the where palestinians had previously evacuated from the north. the leaflets warning to billions to loser the egyptian border. despite overnight bombings in that area! the israeli military also announced an interactive map for evacuation guidance.

which raised a lot of criticism given the lack of electricity or internet in many parts of gaza. civilians located in the designated areas in the map were sent a massage text message warnings on friday, about ten minutes after the text were sent, the airstrikes began according to cbs news. israel on friday also blocked aid trucks from entering gaza compounding an already dire humanitarian crisis. he when a chief mark in griffiths rick nude it's calls for a cease-fire in the same written friday, quote, today in a matter of hours scores were reportedly killed and injured. families were told to evacuate again. hopes were dashed the women, children, men of gaza are all terrified. they have nowhere safe to go. they have very little to survive on. they live surrounded by disease, destruction, and death. joined now by nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez in tel aviv. raf, there are many of us

watching this. hoping that the truce would continue a more hostages be released. more presidents changed. mainly, these eight workers like the people from the u.n. or the world health organization, the world food programme, we're all saying that we need many more days of not having bombing in order to distribute the goods. we need many more trucks to come in. that is over now. >> that is over now. ali, for the people inside of gaza, the seven brief days of respite are over. the intensive bombing has begun once again. it is focused once again, very heavily, and the south. specifically on the city of khan yunis. israel says that is where hamas leaders are hiding now after they got out of gaza city. it is also were hundreds of thousands of displaced palestinians from northern gaza were seeking shelter. these are people who fled their homes because the israeli military told him to get out the north. they went down to khan yunis.

now it is unclear where they can go given that the war has come to them again. our incredibly courageous colleagues inside of gaza were at the isle nasr hospital in the south got of the strip earlier today. they were there as this human wave of dead, dying, wounded people were brought in. ali, they met a mother who fled with her family from the jabalia refugee camp, all the way for the north of gaza. she came into the emergency room that lost their hospital all the way to the south with her two sons. the older boy was killed, the younger boy had lost his leg. she told our colleagues, we left death in the north and came here, death has come to us. it really illustrates, ali, that there is nowhere safe for palestinian civilians to go right now. it is agony inside of gaza. there is also a different kind of agony for the family of hostages here in israel who, for seven days, watched as

people were coming out they watched as the cease-fire deal held. they were hoping that their loved ones were coming out. so far there is no sign that the cease-fire's come back anytime soon. ali? >> very saddening for those, as you said, the families of those israeli hostages that were hoping with each passing day that another ten or so would come out. raf, very break colleague live for us in tel aviv. thank, you my friend. stay safe. you and you. cue coming up i'm joined by journalist with decades of experience coupling the israeli palestinian conflict. covering new reports that israeli intelligence had hamas's attack plans more than a year ago. you're watching velshi. hi it's your business. it's your verizon. the subway series? it's the perfect menu lineup. just give us a number, we got the rest. number three? the monster. six? the boss. fifteen? titan turkey. number one? the philly. oh, yeah, you probably don't want that one.

look, i'm not in charge of naming the subs.

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in the passing conflict. nice to see you again. last night my time last night -- early this morning your time we talked about this bombshell reporting from the new york times that israeli officials had obtained a mosses battle plans over a year before the october 7th attack. tell me, in the many hours that you've been awake what are you hearing and thinking about this idea that the intelligence of this magnitude was held by israeli officials? they didn't act on it. who will be held responsible and what happens next? >> we're a. it is good to see you again, ali. as you can see i am outdoors. right near the israeli prime minister's residence in jerusalem. i'm heading to a protest which is heating up. it is calling for netanyahu's ousting. that should give you an idea. there are several ideas and haifa, in tel aviv, -- where he has a villa. the reporting in the new york times is remarkable, i would

say, fort specificity. what has really made noise in israel's, in addition to the new york times reporting, again another reportedly came out last night. the very young soldiers, 18 and 19 year olds, fresh conscripts, mostly young women working a spotters on the southern border in israel, they saw hamas planning this attack. they saw them in rehearsals. they warned their commanders, they warned their families. they told everyone they could and they were ignored. if you are asking me what i'm thinking, i do have to say something. we should consider the amount of sexism that we have seen. the intel officer from the altar of the 8200 warn it warned about hamas. a 40-page document detailing, incredibly, this attack. she was a woman, she was

dismissed by her commanders. these young soldiers on the southern border that were mostly women, they were barely out of girlhood. 18 and they warned and they were ignored. while several degrees of warning did reach the prime minister's office, i think we have to ask ourselves how these young women and non-calm officers are being treated. >> let's talk a little bit about that. you say you are at this protest. no evidence in that reporting, and you said to me last night my time that it is not clear whether benjamin netanyahu himself knew of or saw the report. it is quite possible with this kind of intelligence it wouldn't have gotten to netanyahu. warm portly, netanyahu as you and i have been talking about for the past year, has positioned himself for the better part of a few decade as israel's national security prime minister. the prime minister under home you will stay safe. tell me about the sentiment around. that is that contributing to these protests that you are at?

or is it still about the old stuff that people were protesting? >> it is 100% know. these protests now are very different than the protests you and i spent the better part of your discussing. these are smaller, much more heartbreaking. netanyahu loves to call himself, still, israel's mister security and that has been shattered. it has become a mockery. tonight, family members of some of the hostages who were released in the past week and some of their family members and demanding to meet him, tonight. they are demanding to meet him tonight. calling on him to stop the war, even if it is unilateral. to do everything possible to get these citizens back. from their point of view and i would say a growing number of israelis in general, the state is seen, the state with netanyahu as its head, has seen to betray the most basic, basic,

duty. to allow citizens to allow them to sleep in their beds in peace on a saturday morning. these people were taken, stolen, kidnapped, massacred. i do not see the israeli population letting go of that anytime soon. >> in israel and in the occupied territories, there is a great with and breath of political opinion. there were at least for six days hope, no matter where you were on the political spectrum, that four 60s hostages would be freed. the palestinians were getting some prisoners out. that is a different story because the israelis have been rounding up people, it seems. as far as a hostages there was hope. every day ten hostages were coming out, or more. what is the feeling around the hostages right now? and as the truth has ended, that probably means we will not see more hostages released for the next few days, -- >> that is absolutely true. i have to tell you the feeling

around that is one of desperation. people, relatives, parents, some of the parents of the hostages who are still held have basically gone mute in the last 36 hours as they have seen this truce come to an end. around 80 or so hostages released to the joy -- you can see the pictures of their families. they are left bereft. there is panic about what is being done. we have to remember that the hostages who have been released a reporting to the israeli security services, and to their families, what they lived through. on average they lost 25% of their body way. they have come back not in very good physical shape. you have a picture there, i see of mia schem, cam back with a shattered arm. she and other hostages have

come back reporting on the deaths of other hostages, some murdered in gaza. some allowed to die in torture situations of their wounds. all of that is having a major impact in heightening a feeling of simple desperation among the remaining hostage family members. this is growing amongst the israeli population in general. >> i do invite people, as always, to follow you on social media. you have so much information. again, it doesn't matter where anyone stands on the political spectrum or about the situation in israel and the occupied territories of gaza. you are heroic in your coverage. we thank you for that. we thank you for always being available to us. noah -- an independent journalist with decades of experience covering the israeli palestinian conflict. still ahead, is relieved from all around the world of gathered and buy for the annual climate change conference. with the apparent goal of tackling climate crisis and reducing our impact has been

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conference, also known as cop 28, is officially underway in dubai in the united arab emirates. they did formula to nation than they did from two other businesses around the world convened in the united arab emirate to discuss how to tackle this global climate crisis. right now the stakes can be higher. 2023 was just to clear the hottest year on record by the united nations. as the conference opened up thursday, u.n. secretary general antonio guterres set the stage and. did not hold back. urging world leaders to take action. >> there are vital signs are feeling. droughts, fires, and the hottest year ever. we can get even hotter still in

november. we have many goals from his agreements and 1.5-degree limit and it is not too late. we can, you can, prevent planetary crash and burn. >> despite its noble gold fighting climate change so for the company conference have been mired in controversy. that lets host country has been pitching itself as a champion of renewable energy, the uae is one of the largest oil and gas exporters in the world. according to analysts, the nation is ramping up its production of oil and may drill 42% more than current levels by the year 2030. going a step further the president of the conference itself also happens to be the ceo of the emerati state oil company. climate scientists and activists have for months been

making noise about the nonsensical and dangerous idea of having an oil company executive lead the world's best efforts at combatting the climate crisis. in his opening address the events president sultan al job or claimed oil companies will, quote, lead the way in the transition towards a more simple future. how about you don't hold your breath for that one? yesterday, by the way, in sharp contrast even secretary general said, quote, we cannot save a burning planet with a fire hose of fossil fuels. the 1.5-degree limit is only possible if we stop burning all fossil fuels. not reduce, not abate, and quote. today is just day three of the conference. there is a lot on the agenda for the next two weeks. we are keeping a close eye on how things progress from here. still ahead, today's meeting of the velshi banned book club featuring the modern classic, the bell jar, by sylvia plan. on the page the belt or stones the story of esther greenwood. esther is telling the story of

spending the summer in new york city writing with a fashion -- esther isn't sure what she wants. a crisis of identity, and increasingly debilitating mental illness, esther experiences a breakdown. off of the page, the bell jar is sylvia platt very real life and very real experience. don't miss this meeting of the velshi banned book club. anned book club. and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? with this guy? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache! oh, look! a bibu. [limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ on the page, the bell jar tells

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the story of esther greene would, a high achieving college student from massachusetts, who had been selected to spend a summer in new york city, working at the prestigious ladies day magazine. esther is confronted with isolated isolation of city life. the inevitability of becoming a mother, whether she wants to or not. and increasingly debilitating depression. the book is named for a bell jar, a thick glass container used to create vacuum space, and protect fragile items as a metaphor for esther's feelings of confinement. upon returning to a small suburban town in massachusetts, she succumbs to her struggle with mental health. the bill jar culminates with esther's suicide attempt, and then lifesaving shock therapy at a mental institution. off the page, the bell jar is sylvia platt's own story. originally published in 1963 under a pseudonym in order to spare her mother's feelings, the bill jar would not make it to bookshelves in the united states until 1971, after

platte's own suicide. the bill jar, by sylvia plant is today's velshi banned book club feature. when you read this book today, after my herself, just how courageous and groundbreaking sylvia plus depictions of depression and anxiety or. the bill jar brought into the general discussion vivid and rational portrayal of what exactly mental health struggles look like. decades later, if you have even come close to encapsulating how it feels to walk through life struggling in this way, 60 years after the bell jar was originally published, mental health struggles have become a serious widespread issue in the united states. according to a survey for mental health, america, a leading nonprofit dedicated to mental health education, from 2019 through 2020, nearly 21% of adults said they were experiencing mental illness. if you are lucky enough not to feel seen by sylvia plants sharp and visceral writing, this book can help you

understand those who do struggle with mental health. the bill jar is an invaluable tool for empathy, contextually, it be easy to believe that the bell jar was published recently. critics like to say that the book was, quote, ahead of its time. in reality, it's timeless. both strikingly modern and very clearly a product of 1950s american militias. putting aside the groundbreaking depiction of mental health struggles, the bell jar is clear evidence of the desire for gender parity, the isolation that city living can bring, the struggle to find one's own identity, the tenuous balance between traditional womanhood in career ccs. they're all nothing new. take this famous moment, quote, saw my life branching out before me like the green fig tree in the story. from the tip of every branch, like a fat purple fig, a wonderful future beckoned and winked. one fig was a husbanan a happy home in children, and another fig was a famous poet. platt goes on, i saw myself sitting at the crunch of this

fig tree, starving to death. just because i couldn't make up my mind, which of the figs i would choose. i wanted each and every one of them, choosing one meant losing all the rest, as i sat there unable to decide, the fix began to wrinkle and go black, one by one, they plopped to the ground at my feet. and quote. playoffs book is a reputation for being dark and tragic, it's much more hopeful than the public recollection mike suggest. for one, thing the bell jar is actually really funny. a two page description of esther finishing a bowl of caviar meant for the entire luncheon reads like a skit on saturday night live. in fact, that famous fig metaphor actually ends like this. quote, it occurred to me that my vision of the fig tree and all the fat figs that withered and fell to earth might well have a return from the profound void of an empty stomach. end quote. most readers know what will become of platte before they ever open the book. they know she will ultimately succumb to her suicidal

depression, like a stifling bell jar suffocating her mind. but plants faith doesn't undermine her work. ultimately, the bell jar ends on a defiantly optimistic note. esther's bell jar is lifting, and she is alive. her life is uncertain in imperfect, her plans are, quote, flamboyant. despite platte's feet, off the page, her book book reassures its readers, that the bell jar can be lifted. it's a story about overcoming the overwhelming, it's about a story about living. like any young woman searching for herself on the streets of new york, the bell jar contains multitude's, right after the break, i'll be joined by emily van duyne, associate professor of writing at stockton university in new jersey. she is the author of the upcoming book, loving sylvia platt. a reclamation. a nuanced look at the revered author. today's meeting of the velshi banned book club begins right after the break. after the break.

first time i connected with kim, she told me that her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.” connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close.

we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. i'm here to thank you. all right, today's meeting of

the velshi banned book club is underway. with me to discuss still via plath's the bell jar, is a sylvia plath expert. emily van duyne is a social professor of writing at stockton university new jersey. the author of the upcoming book, loving sylvia plath. a reclamation. the book is available for really order right now. thank you so much for joining us. on this particularly important journey of this critically important book, let's start with the idea that the bell jar has been a right of passage for generations. plural. of young women. tell me why this book resonates so much the way it does, decades after publication. >> thanks for having me, ali. i'm so glad to be here. i loved what you said about the book. it was really refreshing, especially talking about the humor. which i think is a big part of why the book resonates the way it does. 60 years later. in fact, i recommended it to my mother's book club several years ago, yeah, and they were like, it's so funny. they couldn't stop laughing

about the satire, the dark humor. and they were just kind of really amazed by the fact that they had been led to believe, for a long time in their all old reading of people, that platt was this gloom and doom depressive. in fact, she's telling this very funny story. it is a serious story. it is a story about a breakdown in a suicide attempt and recovery. but the reason the book, i think, works so well, it's because it tells that with such dark honesty. plath is able to see the humor in it. and also to make fun of herself. in fact, she wrote letters at the time that she was reading the proofs of the book, before it went out for publication, she said, it's so funny. i just laugh all day. at the time, her marriage was falling apart she said, reading the proofs saved me that. so. >> wow. the author, miguel wrote an article for time magazine on the bell jar. the article was titled my debt

to sylvia plath, for research purposes, i read plath again. but now, instead of responding only to the young narrators detachment in despair, as i had long ago, i also found myself, to my surprise, responding to the woman sylvia plath would never become. and quote. that's sad, how do you respond to that? what do you make of that? >> i think we've all had that thought. i think we're kind of trained as academics, not to imagine what might have been. but i know for myself, because i had a similar experience to wallets are, i read the book for the first time when i was 14 years old. i thought, oh, this is so strange and said. and then i read it again, as a 17 year old, i was struggling with depression at the time. then i felt like, plath was telling my story. i still didn't really quite see the humor. in the broad satire, and also the critique of society. particularly, the way that society was massaging a stick engendered and structured to do

harm to women in many ways in the 1950s. and then i grew up. you know, i'm 43 now. i started reading plath when i was 14. i made it pat 30, i have this wonderful life. i frequently do think to myself, what would a 43-year-old sylvia plath have looked like? what would she have done? i know she would've gone on to do extraordinary things, because she wrote her output, which he did prior to her death at the age of 30 is remarkable. so. >> it's a wild reminder when you say prior to her death at the age of 30. i mean, when you have that kind of talent, that kind of enduring legacy, imagine another 30 years. another 60 years. one thing i was struck by when reading this again, how plath opens the story with esther's fixation on electroshock, the execution of the rosenberg's after they were convicted of spying for the soviet union. and then she ends the book with esther's life saving electroshock therapy. tell me about that.

>> well, i think it's a deliberate device in terms of literature, she was an incredibly artful writer. although the book is heavily, it draws on facets of her autobiography, it's not entirely autobiographical book. it's fiction. but i think that she felt kind of two ways about the electroshock therapy, she had two experiences of it. she details both in the bill jar. she had a terrible initial experience prior to her suicide attempt. she went to a family doctor who recommended that she see a local psychiatrist, and he administered electroshock therapy before she tried to kill ourself and was hospitalized, and was outpatient at a place called valley head hospital in heather clark writes very movingly about this in her autobiography which came out in 2020. plath was not, she received no muscle relaxes, she received nothing.

she went in totally awake. she described the experience as like being electrocuted. so, she also felt that she had been punished, the line in the bill jar after she has that experience, i wondered what terrible thing i had done. and it's very shortly after that, she tried to kill herself. she really felt that she could not endure that again. one of the things that heather clark said in the red comment that i think is such an important point of the contextualize asian for the novel, valley head hospital where plath receive those talks with the same place where john f. kennedy used to take his young wife, who had a particularly bad fight to give her shock treatments. so, plath in many ways, she is part of her generation. to read again the book, it's like this said, gloomy story, it ignores all of that extraordinary social and historical context. >> that she is part of her generation is almost an entirely separate conversation that maybe you now should come back and have, that's a big part of the book. she's a woman in 1950s america,

1950s new york, and that plays into that as well. emily, thank you so much. we appreciate you taking the time for us at the velshi banned book club. emily van duyne, is professor of writing at stockton university in new jersey. author of the upcoming book, loving sylvia plath. a reclamation. to many members of the velshi vent been club, who may be feeling isolated, depressed, or it's experiencing a crisis of any kind, know that you are not alone. there are people who can help you. you can dial the number 988, the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline, provides 24/7 confidential help, if you or anyone you love needs or ever should need it, i will post that on social media. thank you for watching, velshi is gonna be back tomorrow morning from 10 am to noon eastern. my friend alex witt picks up our coverage right now. right now >> a very good day to all of you from the tom brokaw new center here in los angeles. welcome, everyone, to