december the 3rd. i am ali velshi. we begin this morning with a collision course that could determine not only the outcome of the next presidential election, but the future of american democracy itself. it is happening, bit by bit. every day. so it is easy to overlook. but donald trump is trying to run out the clock, the slow, walk the many cases against, him long enough to win the republican primary before he can be convicted, or maybe even tried of a crime. and given a recent spate of legal losses for the twice impeached ex president, we are now entering a crucial time in this high stakes test of wills. last, week in appeals court reinstated the gag order against trump in new york. judges in d.c. also rejected his broad claims of presidential immunity, which prompted tanya chutkan, the judge in jack through election interference case, to write, quote, defendants for your service as commander in chief did not bestow on him the divine right of kings to evade

the criminal accountability that governs his fellow citizens. let but those legal losses have not corrupt his legal team's efforts to escape, or at least postpone his prosecutions, at a hearing on friday his lawyers went as far as to argue that a trial in the fulton county georgia case this year would constitute election interference. >> can you imagine the notion of -- for president, not being able to campaign for the presidency because he is, in some form or fashion, incapable of defending himself? that would be the most effective election interference in the history of the united states >>. we're gonna let the fulton county judge make the argument on that. but those are reminders that there are still a number of complex issues to resolve as america, for the first-time, consider the prosecution of a former president who is also

running to return to the white house. it has been looming large over the republican presidential primary since the very beginning, and these recent rulings, and the vulnerabilities they expose are perhaps welcome news for the remaining candidates who are currently trailing the former president by a country mile. it's been a particularly good week for the former south carolina governor and trump's former united nations ambassador nikki haley, who appears to be coalescing the support of the anti trump faction of the gop, she recently received the coveted endorsement from the coke networks powerful and influential conservative super pac, and a boost of support from jamie dimon, the ceo of jpmorgan chase. and some recent polls have all shown her pulling ahead of ron desantis in the early primary states of new hampshire and south carolina. she has been on the rise since the first primary debate, she's got pretty but -- good momentum, with only six weeks left before the first contest of 2024. but the race she appears to be winning is the race for second

place. so of course, it is worth asking, is it too late for nikki haley or any republican to catch up to donald trump? there is the belief that the republican party's presidential nominee could be contingent on how trump's criminal case unfolds in the months ahead, and why second place could matter. so let's take a look together at the calendar of what is ahead. because time is actually running out. judge arthur engoron scheduled closing arguments for trump's civil fraud trial in new york for january 11th. donald trump himself, by the way, is expected to testify that day. on january the 15th, republicans in iowa will caucus for their favorite candidate, and kick off the 2024 election cycle, and a brand-new trump related trial begins that day, the second civil suit brought by the writer and columnist e jean carroll. on january 23rd, new hampshire will hold its primaries, republicans will also hold nominating contests in two states in february, nevada, on

february the 8th, and south carolina on february the 24th. so if any republican hopes to seriously give donald trump a run for his money, it better happen in these first two months of the year, because republicans in idaho, michigan, and missouri are going to caucus on march the 2nd, north dakota republicans are going to do the same thing, two days later. and on march 4th, the same day, the federal election interference trial, the first criminal trial of a former american president in history is scheduled to begin. but wait. there is more. the very next day, march 5th is super tuesday, 16 states will ld caucuses andimaries on that day, and just 20 days after that, on march the 25th, the new hush money trial begins, the alvin bragg trial in new york. and asc's first read points out, when the results for super tuesday come in, quote, republicans will have allocated nearly half, 47% of their delegates from the contests in the 2024 gop presidential race.

so if this calendar holds, if donald trump remains as dominant over the gop field as he appears to be right now, the race for the nomination may be over before opening arguments, even begin for any of his criminal trials. joining me now is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. she is an msnbc legal analyst and the co-host of the #sistersinlaw pod cast. also with this is reena shaw, she is a republican political strategist and the principal and founder of relax strategies. welcome to both of you, thank you for being with, us good morning to you. barbara, let me start with. you the big ruling out of d.c. the other day, holding that donald trump is not immune to criminal liability, or, by the way, civil liability in a separate ruling, it is one of the newer, more complex issues that is being tested with the first prosecution of a former president. is this the last big hurdle before the trial, or are we just going to see a pile more of unresolved, technical and, smaller issues before we

actually see anything come to trial? anything come t trial?>> i imagine, ali, there l be additional motions filed. for one, this issue could be appealed to the supreme court. so we may see that this issue in the criminal case has not yet worked its way into the appellate courts. so that can cause further delay. there is some additional issues, one is that the prosecution in the election interference case is precluded by double jeopardy, because of the impeachment that was conducted while donald trump was still in office. i don't think that is a significant issue, but it is one that is immediately appealable. so there are other things here that have to be resolved, and i don't think there is anything that will prevent the caseom going to trial. but i do think there are some issues that could the case from going to trial. >> rorter: right, now going to the associated press, the committees rules, wh quoting here, for next year's nominati contest and convention were released this week without addressing a questi t gop could well face next summer. can the parties delegates vote for a different candidate if

the presumptive nominee, we're thinking about donald trump, here is convicted of a felony, and quote. talk to me about. this because this could be a reality. it could be that before donald trump appears in court for the first time, he is the presumptive nominee? >> this is my favorite question, ali, because in 2016, i went through this myself as a delegate elected to the convention that summer when trump was standing for the first time. so let's back up here and talk about the reality. the reality is, the rnc can say what it wants, but each state has its own bylaws for its own delicate's going to convention. so, for example, i was a delegate in 2016 from d.c. to the convention, in cleveland last summer, and i was a free agent by the second ballot. that meant that i was bound to whoever ahead one for on the first ballot, and that was marco rubio, but he had pulled out by the time if the convention and had started, so, therefore even though he'd won the primary d.c., i was about to him as a delegate who went from d.c., i could've voted for anybody else by the second

ballot. so the creek the delegates movement was started, and tried, and failed to summer. but this time, it is a real possibility that any movement on the floor could actually eliminate donald trump from becoming the nominee, even though he will walk into the convention being the presumptive nominee. , now i realize this is real insight being fought, here ali, but what i'm talking about here, as we've been in december of 2023, is the fact that it is still an open game. and i know people don't like to hear, that they want to point to the polls, they want to, say, look at this intoxication with donald trump. the legal issues he faces don't port over well to the political sphere, and that is accurate. but one thing is for sure is that the primary is not over, and nikki haley getting the backing of the koch brothers is no small thing, but it signals to me she can get money, and she gets a longevity to do the fight. of course, per the calendar, there is a point of no return, but i would not count out everything that can happen in this next six weeks. >> barr of the tanya chutkan ruling in d.c., 48 pages, long

you, know you and i have a paucity to enjoy reading these things, although it was remarkably readable, i keep telling, people read, it's 40 pages. it is learned, it's sophisticated,, but it is very accessible, it deals with the issues of immunity, it deals with the issues of double jeopardy, it deals with the issues of what a president can and cannot do, and why a president is not a king. it is a constitutional issues. but the issue in fulton county is different. steve sato, donald trump's, lawyer said to the judge they, are scott mcafee, that it would be considered election interference, for donald trump to be on trial while he is the presumptive nominee, or the nominee for the republican party. now that trial might be underway july or august. so we might be in that position that donald trump is the presumptive nominee, and he's going on trial. judge mcafee has not issued a ruling in that. there are some questions that suggested to me that he thought of that as things that make you go -- but what do you think about that discussion? >> this idea of election

interference is not a legal matter. he is saying, sort of, de facto, if that trial is going on while the election occurs, then it could certainly influence the choices of some voters. now, if you or i were on trial, ali, and we, said this is interviewing of my ability to do my job, the judge would say, you know, that's not my problem. the trial is going to go and it is going to go, and i'm sorry if it has some adverse consequences on your employment. but when it comes to someone running for president, it is unprecedented. and although, i don't think anyone feels the need to do any favors for donald trump there is the idea of whether the electorate has some harm that falls on them, to have this trial overshadow the election. so i think it is a harder decision maybe than people appreciate. it's not really illegal. one it is really much more in the best interest of justice. so it would not surprise me to see the judge delayed past the election. however, he did ask the question, and the answer should be troubling, that if donald trump is elected, then when

would witness take place? and the lawyer said, well, because a sitting president cannot be charged with a crime, he also can't sit trial for a crime where he's a sitting president, therefore, that case would not be tried until 2029. and i think that aspect might cause the judge to reconsider, and make sure that this trial gets done before the election, because by 2029, i think the public has lost its right to a fair trial. >> reporter: let's go back to nikki haley for a second. >> reporter: if nikki haley coalesces all the support, with a chris kristen flames out at some point, she is still going to be, she is 30 points behind now, she might be 20 points behind at that point. that is still a bigger, that is a bigger number than anybody has ever overcome in american history. but as you, said she is building some momentum. she does not necessarily attract the maga crowd, but she is one of those people who says that if donald trump for the nominee, donald trump, an election denier, who might be connected to criminal offenses, if he is the nominee, she would support him. so it is that, hole i'm not maga, i'm not insurrectionist,

i'm not an anti-democratic, but i'm totally prepared to play footsie with you people if it gets me my position. your thoughts? >> ali, right now, what we see, some of these candidates doing is really playing into the era of being a lukewarm politician. and what they don't realize is that that does not when you any favors, it doesn't when you votes, but for nikki haley, it is kind of the dance she has to do right. now having been sort of the one, only one on the stage, giving the most moderate answers, she has given me hope in the aftermath of the overturn of roe, you can win as a republican, you can win the white house. because, broadly speaking, we americans, and particularly republican party right now want an attack dog. going into the primary season, rhonda santos was thought to be it, chris christie told us he was it, vicarage has tried to show that he's it. but she is really the only one that has been able to coalesce the real players. and that is, again, establishment power and money. so if you are looking at the

republican party over the past seven, years one thing that i stopped doing was looking at them as factions. and, now i am seeing those factions kind of deepening again, and resurfacing, if you will, the mid-atlantic republicans are willing to take a chance on someone new. because they recognize the fundamental market problem here is that people were seem to want more of authoritarianism on the republican side, instead of less of it. so therefore, there does not seem to be an opening for someone else. but as you talk to republican voters about the economy, crime and public safety, especially as we saw a highlight of this past week, look at that debate between desantis and newsom. desantis ain't it. so therefore, again, you've got the power, and the money, getting behind nikki haley, because they understand that she can last. she has longevity, and she can possibly topple a democrat in the general, she looks the most sure of everyone in the field, and therefore, you're gonna continue to see more support behind her, despite what the poll and what southern republicans are saying about trump. >> reporter: thanks to both of

you, i appreciate, this gets more complicated by the, week but we appreciate you both having right here to talk. we have the form united states attorney in michigan, we have miss shaw, the political strategist and principle of relax strategies. still ahead, we are looking at alarming supreme court case that could dismantle crucial government agencies, and the bombardment of gaza which has resumed after the truth between israel and hamas has collapsed, we are in israel with an update, next, you are watching velshi.

come on you

first time i connected with kim, she told me that her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.”

connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. >> reporter: all, right now to i'm here to thank you. the deadly war overseas, where israel has intensified its attacks on gaza overnight, in this morning. according to hamas, more than 700 people had been killed in the gaza strip over the last 24 hours, and more than one and a half million people have now been displaced since the start of the war on october 7th. according to the united nations, two strikes yesterday resulted in at least 160 casualties,

including an attack on a six story building in the jabalia refugee camp. according to the white house, there are no active talks to implement additional pauses in fighting, or release of hostages, and the information they do have on hostages is not all that reliable. here's what john kirby, a spokesperson for the nfc, told my colleague, kristen welker this morning on meet the press. >> reporter: let's talk about the hostages. there are still eight americans who are unaccounted for, including one woman. has, the u.s. been able to obtain information about the whereabouts of the hostages, are they still alive? >> we have imperfect information. we do believe that there are still a number of americans that are being held hostage, kristen, and largely we are getting that from communication with the family members, and of course our israeli counterparts, but it's difficult for us to know where they all are, and just as crucially, kristen, it is critical for us to know what their condition is. >> reporter: meanwhile, as the humanitarian condition worsens and some relief has arrived in

gaza, it is not nearly enough. the palestinian red crescent says they were able to go through the roof of border crossing containing food, water, and other medicine. i'm joined by nbc's raf sanchez in tel aviv, raf, what are you learning now as the sun sets? >> reporter: well, ali, right now, there is no sign all that we are hearing from john kirby, that the two sides are getting any closer to brokering a new cease-fire that would bring new respite for civilians in gaza, and any fresh hopes of getting those remaining hostages out. israel pulling out its negotiators from the mossad, its intelligence agency, who had been in qatar for talks on a cease-fire. they left over the weekend, and hamas also saying that, at this, point they are not going to release any more hostages, or countenance, future, swaps until the war is over. now it is not clear, ali, how

much that these are just negotiating tactics by both sides, both sides playing hardball, the cut trees, the egyptians, they are saying they're going to mediate close the gap to bring these people together. but it is devastating for the civilians who are living under israeli bombardment all across gaza right now, and it is devastating for the families of israeli hostages who saw people coming out for a week, got their hopes, up their loved ones might be coming out next, and is not to be among them as a woman we spoke to named rob goldman. her daughter, romy, was shot at that music festival. she was kidnapped. she was taken into gaza, she's one of around 20 israeli women still being held inside gaza, and i want to play you a little bit of sound about what this week has been like for her. >> the last week was really holocaust all for us. releasing, names, straight to the list, there is a list, and then you're waiting for the

officer to call and say, if we are on the list or not. and the hearing from dr. once, second time, third time, fourth time, and fifth, and sixth, and the seventh, and then the eighth one is supposed to be probably my daughter, and then the cease-fire was stopped. and there was not a list. for >> reporter: just agony for that mother, who has been waiting for eight weeks to see her daughter enough, to see her children inside of gaza, try to keep them safe. you, mentioned, ali 100 aid trucks got into gaza yesterday, that's less than half of what was getting in during the cease-fire, and that was less than half of what was getting in for the war. so an absolute trickle compared to the massive need inside gaza right now. >> raf, thanks as always, ralph sanchez for us in tel aviv. still ahead, the new supreme

court case is the latest multi decade attack on the very way that our government is structured. you do not want to miss this conversation. the h ope and healing they never thought possible. it's a mission powered by love, made possible by you. give today.

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aipac, the american israel public affairs committee. it was incorporated in 1963, for ten years prior to that, it was known as the american zionist committee for public affairs. aipac calls itself america's pro israel lobby, and according to its website, it has over 3 million members across the country, and regional chapters working to, quote, expand and strengthen the u.s. israel relationship, and quote. you may know apec is being one of the biggest and most recognizable donors to members of congress in your state. but contributing to campaigns is a relatively new function of the organization. before 2021, aipac did not endorse candidates, nor give political contributions. its focus was on lobbying

elected officials, not actually electing officials. in a dramatic shift in policy, a pack began directly funding candidates, and spending big on races in 2021. aipac political action committee, a path pact, filed something called a statement organization with the f ece just in time for the 2022 election cycle where it spent $50 million including both direct contributions to candidates and outside spending, like tv advertisements. according to apec, it don't need money to 365 candidates from both parties, including every single member of both democratic and republican leadership in congress. 109 republicans who voted against the certification of the 2020 presidential election in america received campaign contributions from aipac. all in all, a pack of my tweeted 42 members of the 118th

congress. the 2022 elections for the most expensive midterms in american history, with a total cost of 8.9 billion dollars spent. now, last year, aipac ranked 15th in total expenditure by a political action committee according to data collected by open secret. but take a look at the other funders -- funders that they're competing against. back to blue and win red, they are democratic and republican party. save america is donald trump's money raising operation, the conservative club for growth, emily's list, focuses electing democratic women to office. all of the facts on this list are massively domestic focused ideological machines. apec is the only organization in the top 20 whose interests are focused on entirely on america's interest to a foreign government. take a look at who benefits from a packs large guess. here are the top 20 recipients in congress, the house in the senate, of apec money in the

2022 midterm, cycle according to the open secrets. they are members of society to come from every corner of the country with varying levels of experience, the democrat iv of maryland tops the list. he beat out fellow democrat donna edwards in maryland's house primary after a poured millions into pro iv advertisements and mailers. edwards was running for a second stint in congress after serving during the obama administration, where she voted present, not even a no on the number of pro israel resolutions. so the money poured in against her, not only endorsement from nancy pelosi could save her. michigan democrat haley shamans unseated democratic representative, anti levitt, here is what level had to say about that. >> i'm really jewish. [laughs] but aipac can't stand the idea that i am the clearest, strongest, jewish voice in congress standing for a simple

proposition that there is no way to have a secure democratic homeland for the jewish people, unless we achieve the political and human rights of the palestinian people. >> reporter: aipac spent $4 million against lebanon. he lost by 20 points. when michigan congresswoman rashida tlaib, the only palestinian american and congress was censored by the house in early november, over what some lawmakers called, her rhetoric around the israeli hamas war, 22 democrats joined republicans in that censure vote. 18 of those democrats received campaign funds from aipac in 2022, totaling more than one point $1 million. by the way, for these six of them, a pack was their top contributor. a growing list of progressive lawmakers who are vocal in their criticism of the government of israel and its policies and their support for palestinian self-determination to have inspired a pack to spend even more. as progressive lawmakers begin

calling for an immediate cease-fire in gaza, sleet reported that insiders expect a packs 2024 spending to hit $100 million. in fact, united democracy product, which is a pro israel super pac affiliated with aipac, is already spending money on attack ads against democratic representatives jamal bowman of new york and summer lee of pennsylvania. lee has already got a primary challenger, as to cori bush, and neil hahn omar. pro israel donors have already signaled that they are eager to primary rashida tlaib and alexandria ocasio-cortez. congresswoman lee already overcame a packs financial influence against her once, she tweeted criticisms of israel's treatment of palestinians in 2021, but as a candidate, she affirmed israel's right to exist. but that is not good enough. aipac spent nearly $3 million in the primary alone to defeat lee, and they almost did. she beat steven erwin, who is third on the list of money given to candidates by apec in

2022, by less than 1000 votes. and if congresswoman lee wants to keep her seat in 2024, she is going to have to do it all over again. she joins me in studio after this break. break break nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) (carolers) ♪ iphone 15 pro, your husband deserves it! ♪ (mom) carolers? to tell me you want as new iphone? of protein. a better plan is verizon. (vo) for a limited time, turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. (tony hawk) skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. i take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol? it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric. qunol. the brand i trust. oh... stuffed up again? so congested! you need sinex saline from vicks. just sinex, breathe, ahhhh! what is — wow!

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spoke about the turn and impact the israel public affairs committee took in 2021 when the organization began to endorse political candidates and contribute funds to their campaigns. so far, the candidates in a supported have had lots of electoral success. most of them winning their elections. but i'm joined now by a lawmaker who was able to win against and aipac endorsed primary challenger, the democratic congresswoman summerlea of pennsylvania. she represents the states 12th district, which covers pittsburgh and much of allegheny county. congresswoman, nice to see you in person, you and i've spoken many times remotely. i'm gonna ask you bluntly. why did aipac invest so much

money and energy senior not elected? >> i think we will have a difficult time hearing what the truth is. i suspect that the reason is because i'm a black, progressive woman. there was a trend before i started to run for congress that we have seen in cycles before that of them targeting a very specific tug of congress person. and to be clear, it is not just congress people who are going to criticize israel. these criticisms also come with a critique of how our government works, it comes to the critique of corporations, of our environmental justice policy, we talk about criminal legal reform, and so many other issues that i think what, we can see is, is when we directly look at who is behind aipac, those are the types of issues that those folks also are attempting to protect, or to keep folks like us out. >> reporter: in fact, we could talk about cory, bush we could talk about elon omar, we could talk about alexandria

ocasio-cortez. many people who fit into that category are being targeted. because the things that you said that are critical of the government of israel, or supportive of palestinian self-determination, you are not at the tip of the spear on the stuff, i have to say. >> no. i think, objectively, the things that we are saying our major. we are careful and how we talk about this. but we do recognize that this is a foreign nation state that, just as we would critique the united states, as we critique our own government, that we have to offer critiques of governments that we also give money to. here, in united states, we give 3.8 billion dollars a year to the israeli government. and i think that that should obviously come with some critique. it comes with no conditions at all right now. that is the extent to the criticism. that we offer. that is the extent of our conversation about israel that elicits this type of response. >> reporter: does that surprise you that you get that kind of response? you one of the biggest targets

of aipac at all, and you did not succumb to. it >> i think it is shocking. it is shocking what they are doing to democracy. i can think about how it impacted me, how it impacted my district. in pittsburgh, it's a small, medium mark. it $3 million can go quite far. but i think what we have tried to lift up is they never talked about israel anyways. they spent $3 million to spread disinformation, to connect me with donald trump, or marjorie taylor greene, who, in fact, are the types of candidates that aipac has supported. they spent the money to say i was not enough of a democrat, and it harmed voters who were looking to make an informed decision, it stripped them of their ability to make a decision about democracy, so when i say that aipac and others like it or an existential threat to our democracy, that sort of money should not come into our elections. it keeps us from having a reflective democracy. it keeps every day, particularly working class voters, from being able to

participate in ways that they deserve to participate in our democracy. >> reporter: let's talk about criticism of governments. on the show alone, i think i've been critical, i'm just trying to make a list in my head, turkey, hungary, iran, myanmar, china, saudi arabia, you know. there are a bunch, because that's what we do, we're journalists, right? including probably the one i talked the most about is the united states of america. we are meant to hold you, and people in the government to account. but aipac has decided that on the particular issue of israel, doing that is wrong. they've gone as far as to call antisemitic, but whether you call antisemitic or not, it is just wrong. it is not something that should be allowed to be done. how do we help people understand that it can't be wrong about israel, nor can be wrong about the united states, nor can it be wrong about canada, australia, or anyone else whom we think, whose policies should be held, not about the people who live there, it is about their governments. >> when we apply the standards

that we've learned our civics classes when we were younger, we talk about how important first amendment, is we talk about how important it is to be educated voters. to look critically at our governments actions. that is one of the basic tenants of american life, of american civic life. so it goes against everything that we've learned, to be told, to be condition to think, that we can't talk about another government, but also, i think that what we really have to see is that it is also a lobster getting from so much else. it is not just a critique of israel, it is who is a part of a pack, and who is running it. >> what we see when we pull back the bills that aipac is also being supportive, they have billionaires who are supporting who have won races against us, but there's also people who have captured our supreme court. the same billionaires who flown alito and thomas out and giving them fancy yacht trips, these are the same folks. so what we are actually doing's attempt to keep us from being

able to see what's happening every level of our government here in the united states, and this one topic is what we focus on heavily, whether or not we criticize israel. and we are missing what's happening with our own democracy because of apex donors, because of folks who are supportive of them. >> reporter: when you go to do in the next election, are they coming after you again? >> absolutely. they promised to spend 100 million dollars on five black and brown women, and one man, who are in overwhelmingly working class districts. so we can expect the same storm, a quite bigger, where wall-to-wall coverage, where you put on the tv in the morning to the time you go to sleep at night, there are endless commercials. multiple mailers, it comes on digital ads, hulu. right now, they are running ads, even on child protected sites, so if you have a child monitor on your youtube, those videos are still getting through. and children are hearing ads about beheadings, and rape, that they should not otherwise be taught for children, so we

can expect that, we know that it's coming. but we also know that that depresses the vote. it makes voters skeptical of the process as a whole, it makes them not want to participate, and it makes people tune out. that's what we're gonna see in my district, that's we're going to see probably in districts like cori bush's, jamal bowman's, and we have to hope that democrats take a stand as a whole. this hurts democracy. it erodes democracy. when we talk about democracy reform, if we are not talking about money and politics, particularly dark money in politics, than we are not having an honest conversation. >> reporter: thank you for being with us, we appreciate you coming into studio and having the conversation one-on-one, summerlea as a democratic representative of pennsylvania. coming up next, this, week the supreme court is going to hear a case that could fundamentally change the u.s. government. we are going to talk about it after this break. going to talk about i after this break after this break . vicks vapostick. and try vicks vaposhower for steamy vicks vapors. after switching to the farmer's dog we noticed so many improvements in remi's health. his allergies were going away and he just had amazing energy.

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people, wasn't this the nation of the founding fathers, that government tends to grow to take on power until freedom eventually is lost? the fact is, that we can't escape it. only government is capable of tyranny the. >> reporter: one of ronald reagan's key campaign promises

upon assuming the presidency in 1981 was to reduce the size and influence of the federal government, and to promote deregulation in order to stimulate the economy. today, the so-called administrative state, this is what is used derogatory, lee is a huge piece of our federal government system. under the executive branch, there are 15 departments, the department of state, treasury, interior, education, agriculture, justice, commerce. they go on. and within those departments, there are more than 400 agencies and sub agencies that employ 2 million americans. now these agencies, among other functions, are the regulatory bodies upon which we rely in nearly every aspect of our daily lives. experts at the eta regulate pollutants, but a partner transportation comes up with safety standards for cars and highways, agriculture make sure food is safe, if to determines the drugs we consume, osha, and the department of labor keep workers safe, they protect their right, this, big complex nation has big, complex systems to keep it running.

but for decades, even before reagan gave that speech, there had been debates about the size, government, democratic nature of accountability, often in conservative circles. in 2018, as trump already appointed a historic number of federal judges, including his first supreme court pick, neil gorsuch, who had a long history of opposing federal regulations. the white house counsel -- said in plain terms, exactly what the trump administration was going to do, quote, there is a coherent plane here where actually the judicial selection and the deregulatory effect are really the flip side of the same coin. with courts stacked with trump appointees across the country, the coherent plan was well underway. the supreme court has taken up three major cases this term that take aim at the very structure of the so-called, administrative state, and at the constitutionality of how they function. but in these cases on their own, we'll call into question the function of the government as

we know. it today, we are focusing on one of the cases, scc versus jarkesy. in short, george jarkesy is a right wing activists in political commentator who is also a hedge fund manager. he got in trouble with the securities and exchange commission for fraud. the fcc found that he misrepresented how his funds were run, that he paid himself and his partner excessive fees, they inflated -- inflated his assets value. the s.e.c. responded in a very standard way, finding him, and prohibiting him from certain kinds of investment work. jarkesy contested the s.e.c.'s ruling, but he did not stop there, when you argue that the s.e.c.'s entire regulatory process, including the role of administrative law and judges was unconstitutional. s.e.c. versus jar cassie and the other two cases taken up by the supreme court take aim at the powers of the so-called administrative state, and at the very functioning of our government. they attacked the constitutionality of how agencies are funded, they attack congress's ability to

delegate responsibilities to the agencies, and they attack the constitutionality of how agencies are allowed to adjudicate matters. just last year, the supreme court ruled against the epa in a decision that severely limited agencies regulatory power. in that case, the epa's ability to regulate carbon dioxide. justice selina kagan wrote in the dissent in support of the epa, saying that the court, quote, but does not have a clue about how to address climate change. yet, it appoints itself, instead of congress, or the expert agency, the decision-maker, on climate policy. i cannot think of many things more frightening, and quote. the fact that the supreme court is even agreed to hear the s cc case and other cases that threaten the administrative state is alarming. it signals the courts appetite to tear down, or at least chip away at a crucial check in balance of the american government, without the full use of these federal agencies,

who prevents insider trading? who makes sure we have clean air and water, that our food safety, that our roads are up to snuff? and by the way, this whole effort to dismantle the administrative state would hand even more decision-making power, and more responsibility to the supreme court, and to congress, a congress that is notoriously incapable of deciding much of anything at the moment. the question is, do we want agencies staffed with experts in their respective fields to design and enforce regulations for how we operate, or do we want congress and a few appointed judges to make those decisions? these cases do not have the same name recognition, for obvious immediate consequences, as other landmark cases we've seen the supreme court deliver in the last few years, like the dobbs decision to end the right to abortion, or its decision to overturn affirmative action. but these cases cannot go unnoticed. these are cases that have the potential to up and systems upon which we rely to protect ourselves, our water, our economy, our food, and our planet.

after a quick break, we will dig deeper in this effort to dismantle the administrative state with melissa murray, an msnbc legal analyst and professional at nyu. professional at nyu. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. the subway series is getting an upgrade. >> starting, our melissa murray the new #33. the teriyaki blitz. with double cheese and teriyaki-marinated meat. it's like a perfect steak spiral in the double cheese coverage. if you say so, peyton. who knew the subway series could get even better?

and co-host of the strict scrutiny podcast an embassy legal analyst. melissa, great to see, you i've talked enough about this, and i'm not sure if i've done justice in explaining, because it's not something that is in the either. people don't think about the administrative state and all that much, regular folks. but this is a long term effort to cause one of these cases to be successful, and then what happens? what happens if the fcc rules, that, yasser jarkesy, the s.e.c., or the way he'll, things are unconstitutional. >> reporter: first of, all that was an amazing explainer, ali, i'm so glad you're covering these cases. you're exactly right.

-- so the, case s.e.c. dorcas versus jarkesy, involves the seventh amendment right jury trial, as well some other constitutional issues, a, quarterly minute last week, focus primarily on the seventh amendment which guarantees individuals are ready to a jury trial in civil cases. of how the laws were followed in an earlier case from 1977 called out those grooving. in that case, the court said that where the circumstances involved common law claims among private parties, those had to be tried consistent with the seventh amendment right to a civil jury trial. however, where the case involved so-called public rights, that is, where the government was enforcing public laws and enforcing the public's rights to compliance with those laws, including the right to fair markets, fair and safe markets, both of those can be tried in administrative

tribunals, and then the parties have the opportunity to have those administered tribunal determinations reviewed in a federal court. this is the entire crux of what is being challenged, in georgia saying. he was tried on an administrative tribunal to find that he violated the securities laws -- that it violates his right to a civil jury trial. atlas found that in the 1970s would appear to answer this, there's a government bringing the case to import public laws and public rights, but the supreme court last week seemed really interested in whether or not this was to government tierney -- and he need to step in and enforce his right to a jury trial. as you know, there's a lot riding on this. almost every administrative agency has these tribunals for determining violations of the laws that they are charged with regulating. so it doesn't justify the fcc, it affects a lot of administrative agencies. more importantly, it will have

a huge impact on how the fcc enforces securities thoughts. right now, the federal courts are absolutely overburdened, which means that if the fcc wants to enforce securities actions, they're really going to have to triage and prioritize the most important cases that should go, because right now -- so the scc is gonna have to choose, and that means a lot of things may go on enforced, which seems to be exactly what corporate interests want. >> and there is an impression, for those who are critics of the administrative state, that somehow this skips the normal justice system, it skips the normal congressional approval system, but that's not true. because every one of these government departments is populated by people who aren't congressionally approved, every one of these agencies are headed by someone who's congressionally approved, so if you think the scc's going rogue or the eap is going rogue, congress actually does have recourse. but they would have you believe that all of these agencies are just --

in the same way that people criticize the deep strait, the administrators state is its own thing with its own laws. in fact, it's got more to do with efficiency and expertise. >> that's exactly right. we that's exactly right. and again, a lot of the things administrative agencies to, conservatives argue that these things should be done by congress. but can you imagine asking congress right now to make regulations about what's safe for clean water? you couldn't. and more importantly, this whole question of a lack of accountability, especially in the context of a civil trial, really doesn't make sense, because these administrative trial tribunals or not the last word. the parties can always appeal the determinations of the tribunal to the federal court. so again, it's not as if this is judge, jury, and executioner. there's a system of review, and although these agencies are often insulated, they're not completely unaccountable. in fact, they're absolutely necessary for the kind of efficiency government and good

government were used to. >> it's also used around the world. like in working democracies everywhere, this is how we a portion of how they regulate and decide things. melissa, great to see you. former summary is a professor of law at nyu and an msnbc legal analyst. that does it for me, thanks for watching. catch you back here next saturday and sunday morning from 10 am to noon eastern. also make sure to join me and monday and tuesday from 46 pm eastern. i'll be filling in for nicole walls on deadline: white house what she is on parental leave. stay right where you are, inside with jen psaki begins right now. the defendants for your service as commander-in-chief did not bestow on him the divine right of kings. those are the words of judge tanya chutkan in a scathing new filing about donald trump. in which she rejects his claim of presidential immunity in the federal case against him. the law firm of weissmann and -- is here to break it all down, and that's coming up first. plus, another