>> it's also used around the world. like in working democracies everywhere, this is how we a portion of how they regulate and decide things. melissa, great to see you. former summary is a professor of law at nyu and an msnbc legal analyst. that does it for me, thanks for watching. catch you back here next saturday and sunday morning from 10 am to noon eastern. also make sure to join me and monday and tuesday from 46 pm eastern. i'll be filling in for nicole walls on deadline: white house what she is on parental leave. stay right where you are, inside with jen psaki begins right now. the defendants for your service as commander-in-chief did not bestow on him the divine right of kings. those are the words of judge tanya chutkan in a scathing new filing about donald trump. in which she rejects his claim of presidential immunity in the federal case against him. the law firm of weissmann and -- is here to break it all down, and that's coming up first. plus, another example of the

former presidents authoritarian impulses, as he threatens to make this network pay if he takes back the white house. all offer some thoughts about just how dangerous that is. also today, is it possible that the greatest scandal facing the house republican conference this week actually had nothing to do with george santos? congresswoman stacey plaskett is here to talk about a house that is still very much on fire. and later, as lawmakers fleet congress at a record pace, the first installment of a new series we're calling the exit interview. congressman -- why he's leaving, what he's learned, and what comes next. so, many, many years ago, a former president was suspected of breaking the law. though he was long out of office at the time, big questions still loomed over his legacy. they wanted to set the record straight. but in trying to justify his

actions, he uttered what might be the most fundamentally incorrect line about the boundaries of presidential power. >> one the president does it, that means that it is not illegal. >> by definition? >> exactly. >> if a president does it, then it's not illegal. those words have echoed through history, and richard nixon never quite lived them down but that's exactly what donald trump is now arguing in defense of his approach to overturn the 2020 election. he and his legal tree have tried to dismiss the entire criminal case against him based on the faulty legal theory that a president and ever former presidents are entirely immune from criminal prosecution for the actions he took in office. now, that's quite an argument to make. think about it. trump and his lawyers argued that everything that he did to overturn the 2020 election, everything, the attempts at the justice department, the pressure campaign to get his vice president to unilaterally

reject the election results, all of it fell under trump's official responsibilities as president. now if that were true, think about this. the president will literally have unchecked power. every president would. in other words, if the president did it, it's not illegal. right? and this isn't just a hail mary legal defense of a man desperate to avoid prison, he desperately wants to avoid prison. it's how donald trump actually views the power of the presidency. >> if president obama is allowed to do what he did with -- that i'm allowed to do whatever i want to do. >> i have the right to do whatever i want as president, but i don't even talk about that. >> it gives me all of these rights. at a level that nobody has ever seen before. >> when somebody's the president of the united states, the authority is total. and that's the way it's got to be. >> the authority is total? >> total. >> the authority is total. not exactly, by the way. but that view of unrestrained presidential power came crashing down late friday

evening, when the federal judge presiding over trump's federal election case, trauma shuck, and denied trump's motion to dismiss the case. and with, it she rejected trumps warped theory of presidential immunity. let's look into this ruling for a moment, because it's quite spicy and how it's written. it's an important development in this case in part because of how she did it, but it also is because of her reasoning. it's a much-needed reminder that no one is above the law, despite all the noise, trump and his allies are trying to make and the argument they are trying to make. as chutkan writes, quote, whatever i sitting president may enjoy, the united states has only one chief executive at a time, and that position does not confer a lifelong get out of jail free pass. and in a scathing rebuke to trump's lawyers, she writes, quote, the presidents duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed does not grant special latitude to violate them. she continues saying trump's for your service as commander in chief did not bestow on him

the robein right of kings to evade the criminal accountability that governs his fellow citizens. of course, trump will inevitably -- to the d.c. circuit, which just hours before chutkan's ruling on friday evening, delivered a similar opinion in a separate civil case. deciding that the former president is also not immune from civil suits. it's all part of this tension we are seeing between a former president arguing he should be above the law, and federal judges saying he isn't above the law. and you can feel so real that this is even a dispute. i mean, are we a country that everyone is bound by those same rule of law? of course we are. is it not illegal if a president does it? that's why judge chutkan's ruling this week was an important affirmation of what we are supposed to be as our country. in principle, but also in practice. joining me now is our in-house lawford, the great neal katyal, former acting u.s. solicitor general, and andrew weissmann, former council of the fbi and a member of special counsel robert mueller's team.

so andrew, this was quite a ruling on friday night. i want to start with you, because in her ruling she references history, she kind of reminds us of core principles relating to equal justice, or that's how i read it. as a non lawyer. but how do you read it, and what does it say about where we are as a country, that a judge even needs to put this in writing? >> i think there are two points. one is this really is an example of the judiciary standing up for the rule of law. and her opinion on friday was magisterial in doing that. in terms of the history of where we are as a country, i think judge chutkan's evoking george washington's farewell speech, i thought, was brilliant. i'm just going to take a moment just to read a little portion of that, because it's just so telling that george washington, as our first president, saw this coming and said with respect to the idea of a president not being subject to

the rule of law, being exempt from criminal prosecution, would lead to the following. and i'm quoting from george washington, which judge chutkan quotes from. cunning, ambitious, and an principled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and usurp for themselves the reins of government. that is clearly a reference to the allegations here in the case before her, with respect to donald trump. >> it's pretty stunning. given that was literally hundreds of years ago, as everyone knows, what that could see ahead to and what our founders were thinking about. neil, one of the big questions here is of course what happens now? and there is this theory, of course, that this will go to the supreme court. you've said this ruling is such a slam dunk at the supreme court, that they're not likely to take it up. given how many cases you've argued, i thought that really stuck out to me. why don't you think they would. >> because everything donald

trump says, like in those clips you just showed, is bogus. like, 100 percent bogus, jen. i've talked constitutional law 20 times at georgetown, i've been the presidents top lawyer before the supreme court, and i can tell you nobody thinks that this is the law. and not even a student in 20 years would defend this kind of richard nixon ask principal that donald trump is saying. we should take trump's argument for what it is. this is not a good faith argument about the constitution, because no scholar would support that. this is just about delay. remember, when he was president, he said i can't be tried because i'm a sitting president. now he's saying i can't be tried because i'm running to be president, and later he said his lawyers have said in georgia, just this week, if he wins the election, he can't be right tried until 2029. basically they're saying that donald trump can't be tried on any day of the week that ends in the letter why. it's ridiculous. now, we will go up to the d.c.

circuit, to the court of appeals, where i suspect it will be rejected pretty quickly because of that ruling you mentioned earlier on the civil case. i think that will control this. and then the supreme court has the choice to hear this case or not. and there's just not any real good argument on the merits for donald trump, and so i think they can dispose of this case quickly, and i think the trial can proceed on march 4th as it should. >> so, andrew, as neil referenced, i don't think anyone here is validating and people wouldn't validate the legal argument, but it only requires four justices to agree to take up a case, right? to the supreme court. and many of them are trump appointees. i know this isn't how it supposed to work, but this is why i want to ask the question. do you agree they wouldn't take it up, and if they did, what could -- what impact could that have? how could that help trump? even if it didn't rule in his favor. >> the only way that the march 4th trial is not going to happen, because judge chutkan is adamant, she's going to have

it on that date. and jury selection is actually starting in january, just a few weeks from now, is whether the d.c. circuit is going to move with -- and what the supreme court is going to take the case at issue a stay. i think this is an instance where, as wanted luther king side, just is too long delayed, is justice denied. it's imperative that the judiciary act quickly on this. i totally agree with my law partner for the show, neil, that this is not a meritorious claim. i am worried about speed, though. this is a failing in our judicial system that the former president takes advantage of. it's truly imperative that justice be needed out quickly here, if the american public is going to see accountability in this case. whichever way the jury decides, it's important to have that accountability. >> so, neil, in terms of the

process here, you know, what does the timeline look like? the delay here, you brought this up, andrew brought this up. what are we looking at, and what concerns you the most about that possibility? >> well, i think to the extent that trump wants to try and seek a stay of the trial, you have to go to the court pretty quickly, to the d.c. circuit, and seek that, and then seek a quick appeal. i do think that the circuit will order a quick briefing and quick arguments on that. and then i suspect trump will lose, and then he will try to take it to the supreme court. again, i think all of that can be done very, very quickly. and, you know, sure, jen, you're right that there are several trump appointees on the court, but i think it's important to remember that those very appointees voted against trump, for example, when he tried to claim executive privilege over the january 6th committee, all of the trump appointees rejected that. it was an 8 to 1 --

with the independent state legislator case -- you saw the republican appointed justices still siding with the vast majority of the court to say this theory was bogus. so i think that there's, particularly for a case like this, unless there's really no decent argument that donald trump has, i don't see this as slowing down a trial, and i think injuries absolutely right. the american public deserve answers, and if trump is convicted and convinced he did nothing wrong, then go prove that up to the jury, he's going to have to do have every advantage at his disposal, because the criminal justice system bends totally in favor of defendants. the prosecution has to convince all 12 jurors that trump is guilty, and under the most difficult standard in the law, beyond a reasonable doubt. >> that such an important reminder, and you're the expert on this too and how this case has been argued, as frustrate as we can all be at sometimes with the supreme court and its

decisions. i want to ask you before i let you guys go, trump's legal team also argue that because he wasn't convicted during his impeachment, he should not be able to face criminal prosecution. there's all sorts of issues with that, but explain why that doesn't hold up. >> well, what he's referring to is the double jeopardy clause, where you can't be tried twice for the same crime. the problem for him is the reason this is such a frivolous argument is an impeachment is not a criminal proceeding. but even if it were, even if you assume that, what he was being impeached for's insurrection and that is not what he is charged with. so in the technical rules of double jeopardy, it doesn't apply. this is one of the really frivolous arguments that is disposed of by judge chutkan. i can't see any court agreeing with donald trump's position on this. it's really nothing to worry about in this argument. >> andrew weizmann and neal

katyal, always a pleasure. i always learn something. thank you for joining us this afternoon. coming up, congresswoman stacey plaskett on all of the chaos in the house from george santos to some very concerning new information about speaker mike johnson. plus, my thoughts and an in-depth conversation about why we should pay close attention to donald trump's tax on this network, and other media, and later, congressman dan kildee joins me for the shows very first exit interview. featuring lawmakers who are calling it quits. we're just getting started this hour, we will be right back. ng started thi hour, we will be right back. hour, we will be right back. he's right. with the medicare helpline, powered by selectquote, a licensed sales agent will do the work for you. we simplify choosing a medicare advantage plan with our easy 3-step process. we work with many of the nation's most recognized insurance companies, on your behalf, to find the right plan for your needs. susan told us: “my experience was outstanding, easy, and informative.

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who are aware of who this individual was. but i think the vote itself, to make him speaker, on a unanimous vote, really tells you where the republican conference is. that this is the type of person that they really wanted. they want someone with that ideology, they just want them to be quiet, and go about meticulously taking away individuals rights to do that. and so, i'm not surprised that mike johnson is there, and i have a bet that he is going to

stay through the election. >> through next year? >> through next year. >> not survive. >> i think he's going to survive because that's who they want, should trump lose again, prayerfully, and he challenge the election. if he wants to have mike johnson standing on that speakers podium, when that happens, because of his beliefs, not only in these crazy conspiracy theories, but in his orchestrating of the denial of the election. >> this is such an important point, and liz cheney, of all people, i bet you never thought we would be talking about liz cheney and maybe agreeing with her on something, but we have for a while. but i want to play something that she said about mike johnson, and get your thoughts on it. so let's play that first. >> mike was willing time and again to ignore the rulings of the courts, to ignore what state and federal courts had done and said about the elections in these states, in order to attempt to do donald trump's fitting.

>> the speaker of the house is a collaborator to overthrow the last election? >> absolutely. >> what happens if mike johnson is the speaker on the 6th of january 2025? >> he can't be. >> she's pretty clear in her views there. it sounds like you might agree. but what do you think? >> i completely agree. i think that just look at -- mike johnson was part of the weaponization committee. those are all of the extremists of the republican party. and their job is to push conspiracy theories, to set the stage for the election for donald trump. and to do his bidding, time and time again. so i am absolutely -- one of the other things liz cheney said in the book is that the conversation with jim jordan, he says winning is the most important thing. it is not about doing what's necessary for the american people, because we've seen throughout this tenure, the year now that they've been here, that nothing related to the american people has taken place. all of the amazing things that

they said that they were going to do to support the people of this country, they have not done, not one signal piece of legislation related to that. >> which is an important reminder for everyone to hear. i want to ask you about impeachment, because house gop lawmakers sent a inquiry vote, and that it could happen next week. speaker johnson said the democrats were brazenly political when the bleached trump, and what the gop is doing now is exactly the opposite. what do you fall not? >> first, the impeachment of donald trump, both impeachments, were related to the things that donald trump did. not related to allegations that any of his children dead. they have not even their own witnesses that they brought forward, been able to find a nexus between any of the allegations of hunter biden, and the president, joe biden, or even when he was vice president, joe biden. there was no nexus.

there is no there there. their own witnesses have said it. and so we're going to go forward with this, because they have nothing else to show the american people that they've done in the time that they've been here. think about it. when democrats had control of the house in the last election, we passed a bipartisan infrastructure plan, the chips up, the inflation reduction act, bringing the cost of insulin down, that was all in the time period that a woman would be pregnant and have a child. nine months. and what have they done? zero. so they've got to keep bringing these salacious performative politics to the forefront, for american people to look at that shiny object, rather than the fact that the republicans are unwilling to support the people of this country. >> congresswoman stacey plaskett, that's a very clear rundown of choice, important for everyone to hear. thanks for joining us. before we go to break, we have some breaking news now out of the middle east. nbc news has confirmed that a u.s. warship destroyed a hooty

joe -- headed in their direction in the south city. they then observed a ballistic missile aimed at a vessel, and responded to that vessels just driscoll. we'll assisting that distressed vessel, the u.s. carnegie also shut down a houthi drone that was headed in the direction of both ships. this took place over several hours and there were no injuries or damage to u.s. vessels. we're going to take a very close eye on this over the next 35 minutes and we will update you as we will learn more. coming up, why we should all take trump's truth social attack on the media and specifically this network very seriously. i will offer some thoughts on that, coming up next. that, coming up next. the teriyaki blitz.

with double cheese and teriyaki-marinated meat. that, coming up next. the teriyaki blitz. it's like a perfect steak spiral in the double cheese coverage. if you say so, peyton. who knew the subway series could get even better?

hey, you should try new robitussin honey medi-soothers for long-lasting cough and sore throat relief. try new robitussin lozenges with real medicine and find your voice. you know? we really need to work on your people skills. do you struggle with occasional nerve aches in your hands or feet? try nervive nerve relief from the world's number one nerve care company. nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and b-complex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. try nervive. >> this week, donald trump took and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. to truth social, which he often does, with what may have sounded just like another one of those crazy, unhinged grants. he was very specific this time. he attacked this network in particular, msnbc, and attacked other networks and other

members of the media often over the past couple of years. he called for the u.s. government, it is particular post, to come down hard on msnbc, and promised that there is more to come. he also talked about himself in the third person, always a red flag in my book, and he included his middle initial in that two. but once you move beyond that kind of weird detail of his post, trump is promising to resort to an authoritarian tactic should he become president again. does the federal government have any role in the oversight of a cable news network, no they actually don't. but that's not the point here. what's important is that he's threatening to use the power of the government against media he believes is being critical of him. now, believe me. i know from experience, for many days and hours at the briefing room, that the relationship between the u.s. government and the free press can be tense at times. and even both of the presidents i worked for, they had their own moments of unleashing their media critiques when they didn't like a story. and when i think about the role

of the free press and how essential it is for our democracy, i also think about my time as a spokesperson for the state department. because i got into it a lot with a reporter named matt lee from the associated press. he is still there, he's long been the dean of the pressed score, and he's earned that right. he probably knows more about foreign policy than a good percentage of the people working in the building. he became so well-known for grilling me and many other press secretaries during the outbreak of the war in ukraine, that he became kind of a bit of a full cureau in the kremlin. they portrayed him as someone who was holding the u.s. to account, to standing up to power. when he wasn't pushing russian talking points, not at all. the russians just like that he was this american reporter that was combative and was pushing against me and others in the briefing room. at one point i asked him about this and his response stuck with me. he basically said, whether the policy is good or bad or smart or make sense or not, which i feel he was going to push us on, the u.s. government has multiple briefings a day.

at the white house, the pentagon, the state, and journalists can go and push and asked questions. the russians may applaud me as in him at these events, but they have none of that. they don't have a free press there, a free functioning press in russia. i haven't thought of these words when i was at the white house, because it was a reminder that even when things were combative, and they were at times, even when reporters kept pushing and questioning, as was their job, that was democracy working. that is what a free press is supposed to do. and it doesn't exist everywhere in the world. in fact, it's diminishing in the world. so trump's truth special post may have seen unhinged and crazy and random and like you can ignore it, but it's actually a threat to the free press. a threat to democracy. and that threat comes at a time when a record total of 533 journalists are currently detained worldwide. that's according to reporters without borders. a large number of them are being held by the sorts of

authoritarian regimes that trump envisions creating here at home. these are countries being led by his role models, like russian president vladimir putin, who trump called very savvy and genius for his actions in ukraine. in russia, an american journalist has been detained for 249 days, simply for doing his job. trump has also repeatedly praised the leadership style of chinese president xi jinping. over 100 journalists are currently detained in china, and over the last couple of years, several foreign journalists from major alerts have been expelled entirely from the country. these are models for trump, we know that. leaders who jail and silence journalists. leaders who do not tolerate free speech. that's what trump is threatening. and if you don't think he's eager to use those tap dix, if you don't think he's dying to silence his critics and the media, think again. the washington post -- was held hostage for 544 days in an iranian prison, and he joins me next. joins me next.

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to use the federal government to go after his critics and the media this week, my first thought was, i wonder what jason rezaian thinks about all this. he was held hostage for 544 days in an iranian prison, he was the washington post to ron sheaf, and now he's a writer for the post. i'm so grateful that you're here today, and you and your wife, who's amazing, have done so much work to elevate kind of

authoritarian regimes and what they're trying to do to crack down on freedom of speech and media. i just want to ask you, because sometimes you feel in this country like this is so far away. what are the kind of tactics that are happening in other countries that we should really be aware of and thinking about here, that could come here? >> thank you so much huffing me on to talk about this. exactly the kinds of things that donald trump has been talking about, when he was president. and that he still talking about now. fortunately, i'm able to act on many of those things when he was president. i wonder if there is a second trump presidency, if he would have the limitations around attacking the press. but so much of it is about discrediting the work of independent journalists, slandering them, essentially. and then trying to silence them in any way possible. whether it's arresting them, whether it's taking away their ability to do the job, and in some cases, in many cases, killing them. >> yeah. which is such an important reminder. it's not so far away.

this is a slippery slope, and in a country like iran, obviously, you spent a significant amount of time covering but in prison there as well. they have a pattern, right? they crack down, as you said. they jail, they go after, are there other tactics people should be aware of that you are seeing in this pattern? >> yeah. there's also a through line through arresting someone like me, or evan gershkovich in russia, and the impact that it has on all media coverage of that country. so in my case, since my arrest in 2014, washington post hasn't had anybody on the ground in iran for a single day. >> because they're scared of having someone there, and the risks? >> and the effect that has on other news outlets is immediate and long lasting. so the new york times doesn't have anybody anymore, anybody who's working as a contributor for these outlets are local reporters. they don't have the sort of protective cover of someone like me who is a u.s. national

working on the ground there. and then as we pull back in the international media, the domestic media is really the front line. they are our source for all of our information, and the crackdowns against them get higher and higher. so now what we're seeing is in addition to journalist being arrested and killed, exiled. take away their ability to work, kick them out of the country, we are doing a better job of welcoming those people to our shores these days, but we really need to do more to get them up and running and empowered as journalists, in freedom, covering those countries that they've been kicked out of. >> it's so important. evan, you mentioned, who's been in jail for almost 250 days, his sentence was just extended late last week. i've watched him, as we all have on tv, when he comes out in the courtroom, and he looks confident, and i just wonder. you've been in a different country, been in a similar position. what is going on for evan right now? what's going through your head in those moments? >> every day is a smog, it's so

hard to get through. but you understand that the rest of the world is watching, people know that it's a farce, evan has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to hide. so when he goes out there and puts that look of defiance, almost that smirk on his face, it's a feeling that i knew well. i actually wrote a column about it the day after he first appeared in court to say, hey, look, he knows exactly what he's up against. and we need to stand with him, we need to raise his voice, elevate his plight, and let him know that he's going to come home. i don't know when, but i know that he'll be back, and when he does, he'll be welcomed into the fold of those of us who have been fighting this fight for a long time. >> keep his name in the news, which is so important, i know. i want to ask you about, we've all been watching these stories about hostages that are held by hamas coming back, and there's this moment of happiness and elation. i don't know if you transport yourself back to that moment when you watch this, but there's a long road ahead, which is important to remember. what should we know about --

they're all in different conditions, maybe different from what you experienced, of course. what more should we know about what that road to recovery is and what it's going to be like for them? >> first of all, those people were taken in a very violent act with a war we jingling above ground with a were being held. so the kind of traumatic, post traumatic symptoms that they might be experiencing are really impossible to quantify at this point. the road is long, but that feeling of relief, elation, knowing that not only have you survived this thing, that you're going to have a life ahead of you, that's the thing that i hope that they are able to grasp and hold on to, and move forward with. because it's not easy. you have to do a lot of work. recovering is possible, from something like that. but it's certainly not guaranteed. and i just hope that they have the support of their families, their communities, the government, and who i did. >> jason, thank you for all the work you do to elevate all of

these cases and journalists who are being held overseas. i really appreciate you being here. coming up next, the most candid conversations with lawmakers often happen when there's nothing left to run for. congressman dan kildee is standing by for the show's very first exit interview. that's coming up, right after a quick break. ght after quick break. quick break. woman: who's that, who is that? cole: this is my puppy! woman: cancer. it's different in a child. because your child is still growing. charlie: i had 14 rounds of chemo. there's thousands and thousands of kids all over the world who need help. girl: it is my first time having cancer. and it's the very worst. spokesman: saint jude children's research hospital works day after day to find cures and save the lives of children with cancer and other life threatening diseases.

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totally normal, completely chill week in the united states congress. >> hunter biden has agreed to testify publicly. >> they finally got him. and they don't want it. >> we need to sit down and ask specific questions without going five minutes back and forward with jamie raskin's and dan, and little mosque which jumping up and down. >> the senate judiciary committee just voted to authorize subpoenas. >> i don't mind what you just said. it should be real blunt and direct, this is garbage. >> congratulations on destroying united states senate

judiciary committee. >> san jose was absurd before and if this happened. >> this place is literally political theater, and the american people are the ones paying the price. >> congressman george santos has been expelled. >> congressman, what do you say to your constituents? >> you guys have to get out of my way. >> that was just one week. why in the world would anybody want to leave that work environment? well, for whatever reason, i know this will come as a shock to all of you. it turns out lots of lawmakers have kind of had enough. they're leaving in record numbers, 13 senators and representatives announced they wouldn't seek reelection in november alone. which is the highest number in more than a decade. and while they're leaving for a variety of reasons, including my next guest, many of them have pointed to the recent dysfunction in congress for their plan to depart. the growing list of lawmakers heading for the door made me think now it's the time to start a new recurring segment on the show. we're at the exit interview. the hope is that those departing lawmakers will be more candid about what's really

going on there. now that they're on their way out. and first up is democratic congressman dan kildee of michigan. he announced he will retire after wrapping up his sixth term in office. songratulations, i'm sure your family is thrilled that you'll be spending more time with them. i want to start by reading from your announcement. you said, quote, there are times in all of our lives that make you reassess your own future and pat. for me, being diagnosed with cancer earlier this year was one of those moments. thankfully, i had successful surgery, and i'm cancer-free. we're all grateful to hear that, but talk to me a little bit about how that diagnosis changed your perspective. >> well, in this job, we often have very little time to sit quietly and reflect about our lives. about what we're doing with our time. after my surgery, not only was i sitting quietly at home, i had no voice for a while. and it gave me a chance to reflect, and it became clear to me that there's another chapter for me to pursue, after congress, where i'm a full-time michigan or, at home,

surrounded by the people that i love and the people that i want to spend the remaining years of my life with. >> full-time michigan person sounds very good, not even being from michigan. a lot of your colleagues have blamed dysfunction as a reason to leave. are you -- you are pretty clear on your reasons, but did that play a role for you at all as you make your decision? >> it's part of the calculation. because when we make the sacrifice to leave on a monday and say maybe i'll be back thursday, maybe not, we come here. and when we're doing work that is satisfying, like we did in the last congress it's a lot easier to justify that trade-off. and it's a lot easier even for my family to say, yeah, this is important and meaningful work. i'm convinced it will be that way again, and i'm convinced democrats will be in the majority next term. but for me, the personal decision really is the larger part of this. but it's hard to erase the fact that what we've seen, the congress that i've seen in the last few years, is not even

close to what i saw when i was elected in 2012. it was a republican majority then, but this is not a republican party. this is something else. this is not like the party of boehner or paul ryan. this has gone off the rails. >> it's quite different, and i was in the white house when you are elected, and i remember, we had frustrations, as i'm sure you did about republican leadership. but what's changed the most over the last 12 years? when you leave, you will have been in congress for the past 12 years. which change over the past more than a decade? >> what's changes that the republican party that had different policy goals, different ideologies. but was committed to trying to govern, trying to be a part of government solutions. often things i didn't agree with. but sometimes we did a great. and when we did, it was good. it was good for the people of my hometown of flint, for example, when paul ryan negotiate with me, along with the help of speaker pelosi. the flint relief putt. i couldn't imagine getting that done now, because this group, this republican party, if we

call it that, is committed to chaos, and the people who are in charge are the most fringy, most extreme members, and they're calling the tune. that's the difference. john boehner had a problem with his fringe members. kevin mccarthy embraced them, and put them in charge. he made them his kitchen cabinet. look what happened to him. >> and mike johnson seems to be doing something similar. so far. you've referenced the flint water crisis, and of course during any members time, but certainly during yours, you dealt with a range of challenges. and you push to get federal funding to help everyone in flint, you are definitely critical of the state officials who are responsible for that crisis, you are very vocal about that. as you are spending your time reflecting, do you think that entire crisis has prompted the kind of change that needs to happen around the country for communities like flint? or is there more you think needs to happen? >> there's a lot more that needs to be done but one of the things that's gratifying to me is that i was able to get help for flint. but that flint didn't stand as

an anomaly. it helps inform our decisions. what we were able to do in the bipartisan infrastructure law, for example, is to get money to take out every lead pipe in the country. i talked to president biden about this many times. so flint is important, but it also turned out to be an important lesson that would inform the decision-making of congress, and that prolific congress that we just left behind in the last two years, of democratic majority. we did a lot of things, one of them is to help prevent another flint michigan from happening. >> the lead pipes were such a huge deal. i know you have a year to go, before you have more chapters, but what are you most looking forward to, what's that one thing your most looking forward to when you leave congress? >> i think it's being in one place for more than three or four days at a time, and being able to be at home. i will do more work, i'm not retiring, i'm retiring from congress. i never really retired, i've never change jobs. i just get a different tool box, so i plan to go back home and make a way to make that

contribution. but to do so in a way that allows me to be with my family. to spend time with my friends, the things that are the hardest thing for us to do as members of congress. i'll be able to do, just as a part of my regular day. >> well congressman, thank you for your service. you've got another year left, i can't wait to see what your next chapter is. thank you for participating in our very first exit interview. we're coming right back, after a very quick break. stay with us. ry quick break stay with us stay with us [camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing it for nearly a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts,

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first time i connected with kim, she told me that if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.” connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. >> that does it for me today. i'm here to thank you.

but we're working on a big show for tomorrow night. i will be back here tomorrow night at eight pm eastern with a few great guests, including congressman adam schiff, and the daily shows jordan klepper. i also want to know what you all think of our exit interview series and who you want to hear from. so please let us know that, and share any ideas with us as well. we have lots of legal developments to dig into tomorrow night, lots of news surrounding the former presidents to discuss. and a quick programming note

for tonight, be sure to tune into nbc tonight to watch the latest msnbc film called between life and death, cherry shovels story. the document he goes beyond the headlines surrounding the national debate over her life in the 1990s and early 2000s. that airs tonight, at ten pm eastern here on msnbc. it's also streaming on peacock, so you can also watch it there. for now, stay right where you are, because they're so much more news coming up on msnbc. >> is donald trump going to prison? new analysis from a reporter who's been inside the courtroom, where these cases might be headed. plus, what liz cheney just said in an interview about her revealing new book. a very good day to all ofyou from the new center here in los angeles, welcome to alex witt reports. we'r beginning with breaking news. a u.s. warship has come under attack in the red sea. pentagon officials say