>>reporter: the jury didn't do that. they sentenced chacey to life in prison with the possibility of parole. she'll be 59 before she can be released. >> she has to live with what she did. i don't know. >> you have to live with it too. >> it took me a long time to get over bobby's phone calls that weren't coming through anymore. >>reporter: her phone still rings but now it's the firefighters who worked with her son. >> he always told me, mom, if anyone anything ever happens to me, you will have a second family. >> i said, really bobby? he said, you have no idea. >> he was right. >> truly. >> that's all for this edition of "dateline" i'm, natalie morales. thank you for watching. s. thank you for watching ♪♪ this sunday, truce collapse. fighting between israel and hamas resumes after a seven-day pause and more than 100 hostages

released. >> we will not stop working until we get every hostage back home. >> but now pressure is growing for israel to reduce ♪♪ this sunday, truce collapse.0 fighting between israel and hamas resumes after a seven-day pause and more than 100 hostages released. >> we will not stop working until we get every hostage back home. >> but now pressure is growing for israel to reduce civilian deaths. >> the way israel defends itself matters. >> what will change in the next phase of the war? i'll talk to national security spokesperson john kirby. plus, bankening on iowa. ron desantis faces off in a debate against a governor he's not actually running against. >> this country must choose freedom over failure. >> as nikki haley gain ground in the battle for the number two spot behind donald trump. >> i just have one more fella i have to catch up to. >> can desantis really win iowa? i'll talk to the presidential candidate as he completes his 99-county tour and expelled. the u.s. house removes republican congressman george santos of new york in a bipartisan vote. only the sixth member ever to be expel in the body's history.

>> if i leave, they win. this is bullying. plus, pregnancy risks. allyson felix, the most decorated u.s. track and field athlete of all time -- >> gets her gold! >> -- speaks out about the black maternal health crisis. >> three of the fittest, healthiest women in the world are facing these complications. i think it shows how dangerous it is to give birth today in america as a black woman. >> joining me for insight and analysis is kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for "the boston globe," and stephen hayes, editor of the dispatch. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with kristen welker. good sunday morning. top u.s. officials are toughening their tone, urging israel to do more to spare civilians after the collapse of a fragile truce between israel

and hamas. israel is pounding targets in crowded southern gaza and has ordered more neighborhoods designated for attack to evacuate, driving up the death toll. now warnings from the u.s. previously delivered behind closed doors are breaking out into the open. secretary blinken saying the massive loss of civilian life and displacement of the scale we saw in northern gaza must not be repeated in the south. and both the president and secretary of defense lloyd austin on saturday calling for restraint. >> as israel defends itself, it matters how. the united states is unequivocal, international humanitarian law must be respected. too many innocent palestinians have been killed. frankly, the scale of civilian suffering and the images and videos coming from gaza are devastating. >> i personally pushed leaders

to avoid civilian casualties and to shun irresponsible rhetoric and to prevent violence by settlers in the west bank >> secretary austin warning israel risks strategic defeat if it does not protect civilian lives, but in israel, pressure on the government to bring home the nearly 140 hostages who remain in captivity in gaza with thousands protesting in tel aviv on saturday. in an address, israeli prime minister netanyahu promised to do everything possible to bring the remaining hostages home, vowing total victory against hamas. >> translator: at the end of the day, this is our war, and we're the ones who need to decide ultimately. we are the ones who actually decide. >> and joining me now is john kirby, national security council coordinator for strategic communications. john, welcome back to "meet the press."

>> thank you very much, kristen. good to be with you. >> thank you for being here. i want to start with the latest. this cease-fire fell apart early friday. fighting has resumed. israel, of course, has withdrawn from negotiations in qatar. can you give us a sense this morning? what is the status of negotiations to resume a temporary truce? >> there are no official negotiations going on right now and that's because of hamas. hamas failed to come up with another list of women and children they could release, and we know they're holding additional women and children, not combat amounts and female idf. children and inoh sent civilians, women and children, that they don't have and turn that in. unfortunately, the negotiations have stopped. that said, what hasn't stop side our own involvement trying to get those back on track any trying to discuss with those partners and all those

interlocutors to get those back in place. >> those discussions have halted and what is the potential time line to get those back on track? >> what i can tell you is we are still working really hard, hour by hour to see if we can't see the sides back to the table and get something moving. we would like that to happen today, but honestly, i just don't know. >> all right. let me ask you about secretary blinken's trip to the region this week. he said the israeli government has agreed to a, quote, clear plan for averting civilian deaths before resuming its assault on southern gaza. can you give us an indication? what is that plan, john, and what assurances specifically have they give on the the u.s.? >> i don't want to speak to military operations and get ahead of what they're doing. they have said that they agreed with our idea here, that the approach they take matters, and

the reduction of civilian casualties and, quite frankly, minimizing damage to civilian infrastructure is important to them, that they understand that, they're receptive to that message, and without getting ahead of their tactics, i can tell you that we saw them go in with less force when they went into the north. we're seeing them now conduct and shaping operations, but they have given civilians in gaza a list, a map. it's online, a list of areas where they can go to be more safe. there's not too many modern militaries in advance of conducting operations that would do that, so they are making an effort to at least inform the civilian population about where to go and where to avoid. >> i'm going to ask you about that map momentarily, but what is the united states prepared to do if it feels as though israel is not following a specific plan to mitigate civilian casualties? what's the fallout? >> that's a hypothetical and i don't want to get ahead of where

we are right now. secretary blinken has been very clear. we've been very clear from the beginning of this. >> will there be consequences, john, if the united states feels israel is not following a specific plan? >> again, i don't want to speculate one way or the other, kristen. i want to make two things clear. one is we're going to continue to support israel as they go after hamas. the security system continues to flow. that's not going to change. we're also going to do everything we can to make sure that they are properly accounting for the civilian population and minimizing the damage and the casualties as much as possible. the other thing that we're not going to take our foot off the gas on is to see if we can get more hostages out and just as critically more aid in. >> let's talk about this map that you have referenced, the fact that israel has said these specific places are safe zones. obviously, civilians were already told to evacuate from the north. there's a sense that these civilians don't have a place to go. a unicef spokesperson tells the "the washington post," quote, there's nowhere to move to,

nowhere is safe in gaza. what is your response to him and others? >> we understand the anxiety and the fear there. not only are there still a lot of civilians in southern gaza. there are more civilians in southern gaza because the israelis accounted for humanitarian corridors to get hundreds of thousands. so we're estimating more than about a million. that's roughly half the population of gaza before the war is now internally displaced. that's a lot of people, and so we understand the concerns by the u.n. and other nongovernmental and humanitarian organizations, and that's why we're working with our counterparts to provide the areas where people can go and feel a sense of safety. and, again, they did put some information out in the last 24, 48 hours to articulate those kinds of areas and that's a step in the right direction. >> all right. as we have discussed, the civilian death toll in gaza has just been staggering, and despite all of this, only one-fifth of hamas' fighters have been killed.

is israel's goal of eradicating hamas a realistic one? >> we know from our own experience, kristen, while you can't defeat an ideology necessarily, you can certainly make it much more difficult for a group to operate, resource, train, plan, conduct attacks by going after their leadership, and certainly going after their sources of funding and we've laid additional sanctions on hamas organizations and going after their leaders is a deleterious effect to operate. in fact, in just the last 24 hours taken out yet another leader of hamas, a battalion commander and they'll go after others. we think that that is certainly a useful tactic to pursue. >> let's talk about the hostages. there are still eight americans who are unaccounted for including one woman. has the u.s. been able to obtain information about the whereabouts, the conditions of these hostages? are they still alive? >> we have imperfect information. we do believe that there are

still a number of americans that are being held hostage, kristen, and, largely, we're getting that from communication with the family members and, of course, israeli counterparts, but it's difficult for us to know where they all are, and just as critically, kristen, it's difficult to know what the condition is. >> the relatives of the hostages are demanding that red cross get in to be able to assess their condition. >> yes. >> that was a part of the plan, and jake sullivan told me a week ago, he expected the red cross to get in within a day or so of our interview. that still hasn't happened. why not? when is it going to happen? >> that's hamas. hamas agreed to allow the red cross access to these hostages while the pause was in place, and, of course, that didn't happen and still is not happening, and is unacceptable. i want to say one thing and this doesn't get to your question, but even though the pause fell apart, and even though there aren't hostages getting out and even though to your point, the red cross isn't getting in either, what we are doing is

working with the israelis to get humanitarian assistance in. the one thing that hasn't stopped besides the humanitarian assistance includes fuel. >> it's lower than during the pause? >> of course not. it needs to be much more. we want to see, the ultimate goal is to get it at least to the level that it was during the pause. we had several hundred trucks going in. sometimes several hundred a day. and so that's what we want to get up to. >> john, i have to ask you about this new york times reporting that found israeli officials received hamas' specific attack plan a year ago. was the united states aware of this intelligence and if not, why not? >> the intelligence community has indicated that they did not have access to this document. there's no indication at this time that they had any access to this document beforehand. >> should they have given how closely u.s. and israeli intelligence officials coordinate or are supposed to coordinate?

>> intelligence is a mosaic, and sometimes you can fashion things together and get a pretty good picture. they are no indications that they had any knowledge of this document. >> was this a failure of the part of israeli intelligence and u.s. intelligence? >> i think there will be a time and place for israel to do that sort of forensic work. prime minister netanyahu has spoken pretty candidly about this and calling it a failure on their part. they'll take a look at this at the right time. they need to do that, right now, though, the focus has to be to eliminate this truly genocidal threat to the israeli people. >> john kirby, thank you for your time this morning. we really appreciate it. when we come back, with the iowa caucus six weeks away, ron desantis is completing his 99-county tour. why is desantis so confident he can beat trump in iowa?

my conversation with him is next. my conversation with him is next

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welcome back. with the caucuses just over six weeks away, florida governor ron welcome back. with the caucuses just over six weeks away, florida governor ron desantis and former president donald trump held dueling events in iowa on saturday. desantis announced he had completed the full grassley, an iowa tradition and a nod to senator chuck grassley who does an annual 99-county tour. desantis has held more than four times the number of events in the state, but even with the endorsement of popular governor kim reynolds, he trailed trump by nearly 30 points. i sat down with governor desantis moments after he'd completed that 99th county stop. >> you have now held events in all 99 of iowa's counties, and yet former president trump is still 27 point ahead of you in the state, so, governor, i have to ask you, are you committed to

staying in this race through the iowa caucuses? >> i'll tell you what, doing all 99 counties is a tradition here. it's something governor reynolds advised that i do, and it's a way to, one, show that you're earning people's support. two, it's a way to hear from real people outside of the media bubble about what's important to them. and then, i think, three, it reminds you at the end of the day you're a servant, you're not a ruler, and we really believe in serving leadership. we went everywhere. we showed up and took questions and we've been able to build a really incredible organization. we've got over 30,000 people who already committed to caucus for us and routing more every day, and we have the endorsement by the great governor here, kim rends, and by bob van der plat, most recently, from the family

leader. i don't think anyone's done an iowa caucus with this amount of institutional and grassroots support and it's only going to build for here and we look forward on being victorious on january 15th? just to be clear, you are committed to staying in the race through the caucuses? >> of course, i am. it's absurd that i wouldn't be. if you look at past iowa caucus winners and compare to what people were saying in november with this poll or that poll, it almost nerve comes out the same way. so we have a great base of support. we have a much wider base of people who are potential caucus goers who believe that i've been a great governor and would be a good president, and we've just got to bring that home when people start to make their decisions, and they will be doing it, but i'll tell you one thing what people in iowa and in the other early states, they do not want the media choosing the republican nominee. they do not want narrative to trump over their decisions and i see a lot of resistance on the ground here to some of the things that were tried to be spun, whether it's through polls or pundits, and i think that's a good thing.

i think you will see on caucus night people's voices will be heard. >> let's talk about the stakes on caucus night. if you don't come in at least second, would you then drop out of the race? how critical is iowa? >> we're going to win the caucus. we're doing everything we need to do to build support. >> what if you don't, governor? what if you don't? >> i said from the beginning, we're going to win the caucus. but even apart from that, there have been people that have won iowa and not won the nomination and vice versa. you need to win a majority of the delegates, and so we're committed to doing that through the whole process to win the majority of the delegates. there's a lot of things that happened. even two months ago, the field looked a lot different than it does now. i think the field will look a lot different on caucus night than it does now. so it's a very dynamic situation. fortunately, we're someone who has broad support and well positioned and we'll be able to take it all of the way to the end to win a majority of those delegations.

>> bottom line, is iowa do or die for you, governor? >> we're going to win iowa. i think it's going to help propel us to the nomination, but i think we'll have a lot of work that we'll have to do beyond that. i don't think you take anything for granted, and i do recognize that there have been that have not won that have not gone on to win the nomination. i think this year is a little bit different. i think the field has narrowed quicker and i think it's going to narrow more, and ultimately republican voters will have the choice of, i think, donald trump, which i think would make the election a referendum on him and a lot of the issues that he's dealing with or me, and that will be a referendum on biden's failures, on all the issues in the country that are affecting people, and i'll be able to stand for positive vision going forward. we have a much better chance if we're doing it with me as the candidate, and also be able to

serve two terms and more likely to get a lot of the stuff done, but those are the choices realistically for republican voters. >> you bring up former president trump. so let me ask you about the gop front-runner. he's campaigning on the idea of retribution. he's promising to jail his political enemies if re-elected and he's also referred to some of his political opponents as vermin, language that people across the spectrum harkins back to nazi germany. do you think that kind of language is presidential? >> i think beyond that, the issue is why are you running? are you running for your personal issues? are you running for the american people's issues? i'm running for the american people's issues. part of that is this government is out of control. we have seen weaponization of agencies like the doj and the fbi and the irs. i'm going to end that weaponization, but that's not because i'm doing it for me. it's because i'm doing it for the people that have been under the thumb of these agencies, and i'm going to restore the rule of law.

so i think if donald trump is saying this whole thing is retribution for himself, well, what about all of the other people that have had issues with that? are those people he's going to be standing up with? so i don't think you can say it's about your enemies. i think you've got to say it's about the american people's future and the goal is to end weaponization period and to have a single standard of justice employed not to basically do what we don't like as being done now just in a different direction. >> governor, as you know, doj officials would reject the idea thal it has been weaponized. let me ask you the use of the word vermin. are you comfortable with that term, governor? >> let me just say on the doj -- first of all, i'm responsible for what i say and i say things differently, but on the doj -- >> are you comfortable with that term? >> just answer my question, though, governor. >> excuse me. what i'm not comfortable with is fbi agents going after parents going to school board meetings. i'm not comfortable with doj and fbi working with tech companies to censor dissent.

i'm not comfortable with how power has been exercised, and you have an agency that has been very political. people say oh, their career, but it's 99% donations to democrats. you are seeing how that happens. so i don't use the same rhetoric that he does. i conduct myself in a way that's more effective as a leader part of what you have to do is you have to be strong and you have to deliver big results, but what you don't want to do is you don't want to alienate people for no reason, and i think some of the reasons why he's struggled electorally is because it's not even about the policy. it's about some of these other things -- >> so do you condemn the use of the word vermin? >> so don't shoot yourself in the foot, don't -- i don't use the term, but what i don't do is play the media's game where i'm asked to referee other people. he's responsible for his words. he's responsible for his

conduct. i'm responsible for mine, but i will tell you, more important than the choice of words is why are you running? if he's running for personal retribution, that is not going to lead to what we need as a country. you've got to be running for the american people and their issues, not about your own personal issues, and that is a distinction between us. i am focused on the folks. i am focused on what they want to see done for this country in a positive correction. i'm the vessel, but ultimately, it's not about me. >> let me ask you about a development on capitol hill. speaker mike johnson says he believes he has the votes to open an impeachment inquiry into president biden and that he has a duty to hold such a vote, but let me ask you, do you think republicans run the risk of having that move potentially backfire and emboldening president biden as he heads into a re-election year if they move to impeach him? >> so here's what i think. i think the biden family and the amount of money that's flowed into that family to me is corrupt. i think that it's not been explained in ways that make any

sense, and so opening an inquiry based on the facts that we have, i think, would be justifiable, however, i think they run the risk of doing an inquiry that doesn't necessarily lead anywhere while they've been ignoring a lot of the problems that our voters are talking about. when i'm going through iowa, republican voters are not fond of joe biden. yes, they're concerned about hunter and all this money, but they're more concerned about what's happening at our border. they're more concerned about what's happening with the economy. they're more concerned about federal agencies that are overstepping their bounds. so if you're doing the inquiry, which again, i think is justifiable, you also have to be addressing all of these other issues, and i think that there's a feeling out here that they're not focused on the key issues that they wanted to see addressed. clearly on the budget, there's been no progress on that. so make sure you're not ignoring all these other issues and don't use that inquiry as a trojan horse to not, then, meet your

responsibilities on all these other things. >> and, of course, there is a special counsel investigation into hunter biden. let me turn to another domestic policy issue. one issue that came up during the debate with gavin newsom, abortion. governor newsom asked if you would sign a six-week national ban if you were president. you still have not answered that question. so let me ask you again here now. if you were elected president, would you sign a six-week national ban if it came to your desk? >> i actually answered the question a bunch of times. florida has protections when there's a heartbeat. other states have done it differently. this is something that will be done in a bottom-up way, and i recognize that. i'm here in iowa where they have a heartbeat bill. i'll be going to new hampshire at the beginning of next week. they're obviously not going to do that. they're going to approach it differently. we understand that. but i do think every state has a responsibility to have some

limit into how they're doing it. in california, they fund abortion with tax dollars and can go all of the way up to the moment of birth. i don't agree with that. i think it's wrong, but in terms of how this issue is going to be adjudicated, it's certainly going to be done bottom up. what's good for florida or what's good for texas is not necessarily going to fly in new hampshire or pennsylvania. that's just the reality. dobbs returned the issue to the political process -- >> i understand. you signed a six-week ban in the state of florida. voters want to know where you stand on this issue. would you sign a six-week federal ban if it came to your desk if you were president? >> but we signed a legislation to stand for culture of life that was done by the florida legislature. >> is that a yes? >> this was them bringing the will of the people there. >> is that a yes? >> congress is not going to do

any type of abortion legislation. they haven't done abortion legislation -- the only thing it's impacted abortion on the federal level last thing was obama care in 2010 so we understand that, and so pardon me for promoting a culture of life, we're going to do things that are achievable and have consensus. we will eliminate the abortion tourism policy of the department of defense and we'll protect the rights of states to enact life protections. >> let me ask you about obama care. former president trump said he wants to repeal and replace obamacare and something he tried and failed to do, and you were in congress at the time. if you were president, would it be your plan to try to repeal and replace obamacare, something you voted to eliminate three times? >> you're right. president trump promised that he would repeal and replace obama care and he didn't do it and that was a promise that he made a lot of times. >> what would you do, governor? >> -- have continued to go up.

>> what would you do, governor? >> well, but i think it's important to point out, he's running on a lot of the things he campaigned on in 2016, and didn't -- repealing obamacare and draining the swamp, and now he says he's going to do one against biden. he's running on things he didn't do. he will have a plan to supersede obama care that will lower prices for people so that they can afford healthcare while making sure people with pre-existing conditions are protected and we're going to look at the big institutions that are causing prices to be high. big pharma, big insurance, and big government, but it's going to need to be where you have a reform package that's going to be put in place. i don't think that repeating what trump did and the failure is necessarily going to make sense. so we will address that. we will make sure that the obama care promised lower premiums and it didn't deliver that, and we know it needs to go in a different direction, but it's going to be done by having a

plan that's going to be able to supersede that, and i'm going to be working on that. >> governor, i want to be clear by what you mean by supersede. do you mean you will move to repeal obama care and try to replace it with something else or will you leave it in place and make revisions? >> no, no. you will have a totally different health care plan. >> so you would repeal it? you'll move to repeal it? >> so people that will be on things like if they have -- an exchange plan will have a plan that will offer them coverage. so the coverage will be different and better, but they're still going to be able to be covered so we want to make sure we want to have as many people covered as possible and places like florida, we already have -- i signed pre-existing protections anyway, and so i know that that was a big deal to obamacare, and that's an easy thing we'll agree on, so that's not a big deal. we will have a plan. i think it's going to supersede obamacare and this will be much better for people. >> i just want to be clear.

are you going to keep obamacare in place and make revisions to it? will that be your plan to be crystal clear? >> this will be replacing obama care. >> so you will repeal and replace it? >> obama care hasn't worked and we are going to replace and supersede with a better plan. >> can you tell me specifically what the plan is and what your plan is to ensure the 40 million people who now have health insurance who didn't before obama care was passed? >> well, we're going to be working on probably in the spring. we'll roll out a big proposal. i've got a lot of input that's been coming in from a lot of good people around the country, but we will be definitely be addressing insurance. we will definitely be addressing big government and addressing big pharma. you know, we pay more for drugs in this country than anybody else in the world. i would like to address this across the country so our consumers are getting relief. obamacare promised that and it

didn't deliver, and we'll do something that actually works. and a programming note now, join us this wednesday at 10:00 p.m. eastern for a "meet the press" special following the next presidential debate. you can watch it on nbc news now. and when we come back, former president trump is focusing on president biden rather than his gop rivals. the panel is here next. s gop ris the panel is here next

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welcome back. the panel welcome back. the panel is here. tim alberta, staff writer for "the atlantic" and author of "the kingdom, the power and the glory. american evangelicals in the age of extremism." stephen hayes, editor of "the dispatch," and kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer of "the boston globe." thanks to all of you for being here. let me just start with what we heard in governor desantis. he was defiant and he said he is in this race through iowa to win it, and of course, we saw him hold that debate this week with governor gavin newsom of california, trying to basically shake up the race. is it too late for him to shake

up this race? >> i mean, i'm not sure it's too late for anybody to shake up this race. we have five-plus weeks until iowa and a lot can happen, but the facts are troubling for ron desantis and donald trump, as you pointed out is ahead, depending on the poll of 30 points in iowa and some 50 points nationally, and what struck me about your interview with him is how small he felt in response to those questions. you're losing to donald trump by double digits, by a huge margin. you've got a short amount of time to make your case. you gave him multiple openings to make his case against donald trump and he just really didn't seem to take it. there were prods on obama care and the claim that trump is running for himself and not for the folks, but on the big things he didn't jump in and prosecute the kind of case against the person he needs to topple in order to win. >> tim, what was your take and is iowa do or die for him? he says, hey, i'm going to win,

but does he at least need to come in second or else have a hard discussion about potentially dropping out? >> it's hard to see how for ron desantis anything short of winning iowa catapults him into real contention in this race e because let's deal in reality here. donald trump is probably going to win new hampshire and he's going to run away with it as he did in 2016 against the crowded field. ron desantis is approaching, i think, a fork in the road -- and maybe he's already at the fork in the road, kristen. he seemed defensive, jumpy in that interview. he almost gives the vibe of a guy that sort of knows that the end could be near and let's keep in mind, ron desantis is a young man, a talented politician and someone who a lot of republican donors and a lot of republican voters would like to see be president one day, perhaps not now. so are you served in your political future by losing iowa, getting demolished in new hampshire, and then losing in south carolina, perhaps finishing third in south carolina?

the bloom would come off the rose perhaps permanently at that point. so desantis has a very interesting decision to make here, and we need to consider that in the context of his campaign apparatus and his super pac outside apparatus, sort of at war with one another and imploding in real time. this is not a agreement moment for ron desantis to be on a downward trajectory, and that's where he appears to be. >> such a great point about the fact that he is simultaneously keeping his eye on the future which underscores likely why he decided to do that debate with gavin newsom. talking of the fw op front-runner, we did hear from him in iowa, former president trump, keeping his eyes squarely set on president biden. >> joe biden is not the defender of american democracy. joe biden is the destroyer of american democracy. the fact is americans don't like fascists. we don't like communists. we don't like tyrants and corrupt politicians like joe biden.

>> kimberly, what do you make of this? >> clearly, he is looking at general because as we pointed out the chances of anybody else on either side beating -- or catching up to biden or him are very small, but i think what we really should be looking in that is his penchant for projection, which is something he's always done. he's a businessman. he would call the people he didn't like crooks, and now he stands accused of business fraud. i'm surprised he didn't say joe biden is facing 91 criminal counts. he is projecting, the warning signs of the authoritarian nature of donald trump and what another term would bring are hitting home. voters are listening to that, and so his plan is just to try to deflect, paint himself somehow as the defender of democracy, when the truth is he is the exact opposite. >> tim, look, in your book, you explore why evangelicals are so

dead indicated to former president trump. you can look at what happens on capitol hill. george santos was ousted, expelled, because he's facing a number of charges. president trump is facing a number of charges as well, and that's only reinforced his support, including evangelicals, in the state of iowa. talk about those dynamics at play and how challenging that is for ron desantis and nikki haley to peel away in that constituency. >> kristen, we know that there are two standards in the republican party. there is a trump standard and a standard for everybody else. trump can get away with things that no one else can get away with. specific to his relationship with the evangelical base of the republican party is that donald trump is not succeeding with these voters in spite of his behavior and in spite of the 91 counts and in spite of the rhetoric, but he is succeeding because of those things, and what i mean specifically is that when you consider the sort of

psychological transformation of the evangelical base's relationship with donald trump and how they have come to view him as their protector at a time when they are in danger, they are under siege. the country is coming to them and their churches and their faith, they view donald trump as almost a mercenary to protect them in these dangerous times, and that's something that's very hard for another candidate to compete with. >> kimberly, we just have about ten seconds left. >> i think people can say and hold two thoughts at the same time and one that there is the threat to democracy. what do those freedoms that they're standing for mean if that's destroyed? >> great conversation. thank you so much. when we come back, a former first lady known as a loyal partner and advocate, remembering rosalynn carter in our "meet the press minute."

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water can be as unique as you are. try cirkul. your water, your way. now with even more flavors. available at walmart or drinkcirkul.com. welcome back. this week we lost three giants in the world of washington. sandra day o'connor, the first woman ever to serve on the supreme court. henry kissinger, the complicated and often controversial statesman who advised 12 presidents serving as secretary of state, a national security adviser to both presidents nixon and ford. and former first lady rosalynn carter, who was laid to rest on wednesday in plains, georgia, a town of 600 where she met her husband. president jimmy carter left hospice care to attend the services. in 1976 during carter's campaign

for president, rosalynn carter imagined what kind of first lady she might become. >> i don't think i could ever compare myself with eleanor roosevelt, but there are so many things that i see that need to be done. i don't -- i don't think i have ever shied away from controversy and i don't think jimmy has ever shied away from controversy. jimmy has always told me that if you do anything, you're going to be criticized. the only way to not be criticized is to be mediocre and not do anything, but the things i want to work with are the mental health program. i've worked with that for a long time. i'm very concerned about it. i want to work with programs with the elderly. everyone talks about the elderly and nothing gets done for them and to me it's urgent. rosalyn carter was 96 years old. and when we come back, the most decorated u.s. track & field athlete in olympic history is calling for better maternal health care for black women. our conversation with allyson felix is next. nversation with a felix is next.

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it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. i'm here to thank you. for more than for more than 75 years "meet

the press" has had a history of shining a light on people who influence our politics from outside of washington. when allyson felix stepped off the track at the tokyo games in 2021, she had just won her 11th career medal, seven golds, eclipsing carl lewis to become the most decorated u.s. track & field athlete in olympic history, but now she's making headlines for a new reason, as an advocate for black maternal health. black women have a maternal mortality rate about three times the rate for white women. for felix, it's personal. in 2018 she developed severe preeclampsia during her daughter cameron. in a devastating turn, this past may, tori bowie, allyson's teammate and the anchor of the gold medal-winning 4x100 relay team at the 2018 olympics was found dead in her home after facing complications of

childbirth at eight months' prague nanlt. that experience and her own has made allyson felix a powerful voice on behalf of black moms everywhere from the white house to the halls of congress. >> mothers don't die from childbirth, right? not in 2019, not professional athletes, not at one of the best hospitals in the country, and certainly not to women who have a birthing plan and a birthing suite lined up. i thought maternal health was solely about fitness, resources, and care. if that was true, then why was this happening to me? >> allyson felix, welcome to "meet the press." >> thank you so much for having me. >> let's talk about your road to motherhood. at 32 weeks you were diagnosed with preeclampsia. your beautiful daughter cameron

was born two months early. how did that experience shape you? >> i think it really changed me, and more than anything it opened my eyes. i think i kind of had an idea of statistics of what maternal health was like in america, but i didn't really understand it. i remember when i was in the hospital, and i had this whole birth plan. you know, i thought i was going to have a natural birth and it was going to be beautiful and all these things, and they told me i had a severe case of preeclampsia, and i didn't even quite understand what that meant or what that meant for me, for my baby, and just feeling scared. you know, i'm a professional athlete. i've taken care of my body my entire life, and so to know that things really got scary and difficult was so hard, but at the same time it opened my eyes to the struggles of so many other women and especially women of color. >> take me inside that moment when you were told that you had preeclampsia because you had gone in for a routine check-up. >> yeah. >> at 32 weeks. what were those emotions? >> yeah. i was expecting to go home, you know, and i was admitted, and

when i was admitted, things just spiraled downhill very quickly. and so i didn't even have time to process everything, and it just moved so fast, and then i ended up having an emergency c-section. >> what was your greatest fear? >> that my daughter wouldn't make it. that i don't even think -- it wasn't until after i came out of that experience that i realized that my family was in fear of my life. i was only thinking about my daughter and what that meant for her, but they told me later on they were so uncertain. >> when you're in the middle of this experience, as you say, you didn't have that broader sense that women of color experience complications during pregnancy at higher rates. did you feel like your doctors, your medical community was listening to you? >> i felt like i should have known that i was at risk. i felt like i should have been told the signs to look for. instead, i wasn't.

i didn't know what preeclampsia was. i didn't understand that the swelling in my feet is just not simply a sign of pregnancy, but could be preeclampsia, and i felt hike i had great medical care, but that's not always enough. >> what do you wish doctors had told you? >> that as a woman of color, that i'm already at a greater risk for these complications. what are the signs? what can i do to, you know, help this not happen, and also i should be taking my blood pressure at a certain point. so just being educated and being aware is huge. >> so no doctors ever relayed that information to you, that you were at higher risk for something like preeclampsia as a woman of color. >> no, i wasn't told that. the first mention i heard of preeclampsia was when i was being diagnosed with it. and so i think that's why i think awareness is so huge for me and to, you know, not only tell my story but amplify other

stories. >> did you get sick? how bad did you get? >> because i had severe features of preeclampsia, they were in constant worry of me having a stroke, of my vision being lost. and so the only cure for preeclampsia right now is to deliver, and so that's what happened very quickly. i went from being admitted to the hospital and being told that our goal was to stay there for another two weeks, just try to stay pregnant, and i delivered, you know, later that night, and so it was a very quick progression, but i know that if i did not deliver, myself or my baby or both of us wouldn'tlet have made it. >> you've been very outspoken because the bigger picture here is that there were four of you on the 2016 olympic track & field team in rio, and then your teammate tori wie

tragically died -- >> yeah. >> -- due to complications of childbirth. how is that possible in this day and age? >> it's absolutely devastating that, you know, three of the fittest, healthiest women in the world are facing these oopsz complications, and i think it's a stark reminder that, you know, this condition does not discriminate. it doesn't matter if you have the best medical care. you can still suffer from it. to me, it really hearts my heart that my friend tori passed away and it brought this back to the forefront, but this has been happening. this is the reality of black women giving birth in america and there are so many situations that are like this, and so i hate that it takes such a devastating loss, you know, to bring it back to the forefront, but it's also such a motivation that, you know, we have to do better. >> what was that moment like when you realized tori had passed giving -- in the midst of

childbirth? >> it was heartbreaking. it was heartbreaking. when i read that it was preeclampsia, yeah, it just brought everything back to the forefront. i had been doing work in the space and so passionate about it, but when it's someone you know, when it's a friend, someone that you have competed alongside and had all of these special moments, and, you know, everyone dreams of motherhood, a lot of women do, and it breaks my heart to know that that was her experience. i think it shows how dangerous it is to give birth today in america as a black woman. i mean, out of the four of the women on the team, only three of us are mothers, and that is astonishing, and it's just not okay. i think about the future and just keeping families together, and i just know that we have to do more. >> what is your message to the medical community? what more do you want to see done?

>> definitely more training, more implicit biased training. there are countless stories of women not being heard when they're in the delivery room, at doctors' appointments. i don't think you should have to be prepared to advocate for yourself. i think it's intimidaing for a lot of women and the doctors and the experts and to have to really push up against them is difficult, and so that's one thing. policy change, of course. you know, at that level is very important and then just the awareness of it all as well and i think we have to remember these stories, and these people and not being detached from that, as well. >> when you look at the statistics, women of color are three times more likely to die in child birth than white women. when you see those statistics and 80% of complications are preventable, how does that make you feel? >> knowing that 80% are preventible, to me it's infuriating.

i also -- it also brings me a lot of hope. like there is the possibility to reverse this, like we can do something about this, and i think it starts with listening, it starts with hearing, and obviously there's a lot more to that, but i am hopeful for the future. and before we go, we do have exciting news. we learned after our interview that allyson felix is pregnant and expecting her second child, cameron's baby brother is due in april. congratulations. you can see my full interview with allyson felix at meetthepress.com and catch the paris olympics next summer on nbc and streaming on peacock. that is it for today. thank you for watching. if it's sunday it's "meet the press." i want to make two things clear. one is we're going to continue to support israel