very hard sport of their own creation. they're very sincere in wanting to protect civilians in gaza. i think they are not yet ready to recognize, and to make some of the policy trade-offs that would entail. they want to have two things simultaneously, they want to support the israeli military offensive, and continue to arm it, equip it, and give it diplomatic backing. at the same time, they want, and they have said, how israel does that matters. israel needs to do that in a way that is in line with international law. when senior administration officials are asked, well, is this in line with international law? they tied themselves in knots, not answering that question. >> what would you say to that? >> i would say, to all appearances, it is not. >> jeremy konyndyk of refugees international. thank you for making time for us tonight. appreciate it. that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. now. good evening, alex. for a great show and thanks tuesday you at home for joining me this hour. i want to start off tonight with something out of playboy it's just an article, so do not worry, this is still a family program. in 1990 donald trump did a sit down interview with playboy in

which he teased a future in american politics, and there is something he said back then that he all probably should have taken a bit more seriously. it was just a year after the chinese government used a massive amount of military force to violently crack down on pro-democracy student protesters who had been occupying tiananmen square in beijing. the chinese government declared martial law and it massacred hundreds of civilians. and here was donald trump's take on that incident one year later in thet pages of "playboy." when the students poured into tiananmen square,ed the chinese government almost blew it. then they were vicious, they were horrible,y but they put i down with strengthen. that shows you the power of strength. our country is right now perceived as weak. okay, at this point, people can be forgiven for not believing a lot of things donald trump says. they don't think he actually means what comes out of his

mouth. and yes, this interview was in "playboy," which i know some people read expressly just for the articles. but, still, it is hard to take playboy that seriously. but now that donald trump has denied the outcome of one democratic election and urge his supporters to commit insurrection onpp his behalf an somehow remains the front-runner on his party's presidential ticket, given all of that, maybe it is time to start taking trump's comments, the ones praising authoritarian regimes and their leaders, maybe it is time to take them seriously. >> the man who looks like a piece of granite, right? she's strong like granite. he's strong i know very well, president xi of china. he runs 1.4 billion people with an iron hand. president xi smart, top of his game. president putin, smart. very smart people. one s of strongest leaders vikt

orban from hungary. he's a very strong man, one of the most respected leaders in the world. he's tough,rs no games, right, hungary. >> hungary is one of the most anti-democraticos countries in e world, but hungary is a citien a hill for donald trump. it's a well-run country that hungary. trump has not been shy about his love for strong men or for his strong man like plans for our very own country if he wins in 2024. he wants to stop all investigations into his wrongdoings, and he wants to open investigation into joe biden and other political opponents using the justice department to go after his political enemies. and it now appears trump is ready to clean house within the federal government ouitself. getting rid of as many career employees as he can and installing an army of loyalists.

if they get their way the next republican president will sign an executive order eliminating civil service protections for up to 50,000 workers. the people whose names are being floated under senior positions in a potential second trump white house, they are not being shy about what they would do with that newfound power either. >>ow there's a couple people yo could put in positions like that. we talk about mike davis as attorney general. >> we're going to fire a lot of people in the deep state. we're going to indict joe biden, hunter biden, and every other scum ball sleaze ball biden. >> do you believe you could deliver the goods on this in pretty short order the first couple of months so we can get rolling on prosecutions? >> yes. we will go out and find the conspirators not just in government but in the media. yes, we're going to come after

people in the media who lied about american citizens, help joe biden rig prelzdential elections. we're going to come after you. >> we're going to come after you. t that's the sales pitch here. former republican congressman liz cheney this week is warning that america is sleepwalking into a dictatorship in the united states. in the past few days "the washington post," "the new york times," and "the atlantic" have all published stories referencing the potential for a trumpin dictatorship. republicans in the senate, however, clearly don't subscribe to any of those publications or don't read them. j.d. vance tweeted all of these articles calling trump a dictator are about one thing, legitimizing illegal and violent conduct as weeg get closer to t election. everyone needs to take a chill pill. republicans in theer house have turned the alarm on its head. congressman wesley hunt claimed the left has gone full panic mode and said that another trump

term would mean the end of dictators in enamerica, not the beginning. as for house republican leadership todayub speaker of t house mike johnson announced he plans to vote to formalize an impeach inquiry into president biden next week. he also clarified before he can release ee40,000 hours of janua 6th footage to the public, the speaker's team needs to do just one thing. >> as you know we have to blur some of the faces of persons who participated in the events of that day because we don't want them to be retaliated against and be charged by the doj. >> got to give the insurrectionists cover by the doj so said the speaker of the house. if you're waiting to stop the slide towards autocracy do not hold your breath. the most exhausting accounting of the exact nature of this potentialat autocracy is in thi

week's atlantic. over 24 essays atlantic authors carefully examined what is hyperbole, what is a bad joke, and what should really have us worried. together these pieces makes what the atlantic editor-in-chief saying trump and trumpism pose an existential threat to america and to the ideas that animate it. the country, he writes, survived the first trump term though not without sustaining serious damage. a second term, if there is one, will be much worse. joining me now are the atlantic magazine's and the a atlantic's editor-in-chief jeffrey goldberg and staff writer at the atlantic mckay coppins. gentlemen, thank you both for being here. jeff, i'd love to know what about this moment brought on this fate and in particular this publication from theis atlantic these stories detailing what the

trump dictatorship might look like. i'll quote something from robert kagen in "the post" who says barring some miracle trump will soon be the nominee. when that happens, there will be a swift and dramatic shift in the political power dynamic in his favor. until now republicans and conservatives have enjoyed relative freedoms to express anti-trump sentiments, to speak openly and positively unt alternative candidates. all this will end once trump wins super tuesday. is there a feeling that the window is closing to alarm the americang people? >> yeah, you know, that's an interesting question because -- by the way, hi, alex. nice to see you. it's an interesting question because a lot of us think that we've had seven or eight years of information of what trump is capable of doing, but, yeah, you know he does not have the nomination yet. and as you know our interests at

the atlantic generally is not endorsing or picking favor in a partisanor way. we believe that a strong liberal party and a strong conservative party are prerequisites for a healthy american democracy. what you have flow is not a healthy conservative party. you have a cultive personality in the republican party built around this person.er and from a technical standpoint it's not too late for the republican party to pick someone else, nikki haley, ron desantis, chris christie, so on. so i just thought we're not too late to remind people and pull together in one place, right? that's the idea to ulit all together. we have a lot of great experts on the atlantic staff on different areas from immigration to national security, to the supreme court and so on. it's not too late to pull them all together and have them outline exactly what they think will happen. and they do that based on

looking at the four years of the first trump term, right, and i think you're alluding to this in your program, just listening to what he'sgr saying now and what his supporterssa are saying now. i just wanted it all in one place. and at the very least what i told our staff is, you know, we may not convince people that trumpism is a very bad idea, but at least we'll have tried to stop what i see as a disaster in the making. >> yeah, at least we'll have tried seems to be kind of the distress call amongst those who know and who care. mckay, i want to ask you in the context not just of trump but the republican party writ large the last few weeks have felt like trump's minions have charged the hill and by the hill i mean capitol hill, right? we have c the retirement of mit romney, which you have beautifully chronicled in your

book. you have liz cheney not in congress out with her book this weekend saying manyh of the sa things echoed in the pages of the atlantic. there's the ouster of kevin mccarthy who by no means was slightly tethered to reality. and patrick mchenry, a kind of sort of normy republican, by no means a moderate. but he announced his retirement today as well. i wonder what you make of the sort of party that stands around trump and specifically the members of congress who in some ways are supposed to be a check on trump's power, whether he has fully overtaken the party on the hill. >> yeah, it's a great question. i think that one of the most significant victories trump has had invi the year since he left the white house was holding onto and consolidating his support in congress among republicans,

right? the lastns several years and yo can go backer to his presidency have seen a handful of exodus of dissidents in the republican party who would routinely call out trump for his excesses, his anti-democratic cebehavior. and what's-d happened is that t culture of fear of speaking out against trump has -- has really kind of calcified. you know, it is very hard these days to find a republican who is willing on the hill to say anything critical of donald trump. and, you know, we're in the middle -- it's important to remember you just talked about it we're inmb the middle of a republican presidential primary. typically during a moment like this you would find a lot of different republicans who have theirt own favorite candidates that, you know, they'd be engaged in surrogacy and, you know, a robust debate over who should be the nominee, and

instead what you see is a culture of silence and fear and republicans who have basically consigned themselves to the reality that trump will be their nominee. even as, you know, not a single vote has been cast. >> yeah, and i think furthermore, jeff, there's the question of whether they even whisper about what they'd like -- whether there's even a sense of chasm between what is good for democracy and what they're doing. w because the revision around something, for example, like january 6th is so profound, i was struck by the fact the speaker of the house is saying we've got to blur the face of the insurrectionists so the doj doesn't charge them. that's the legislative branch in i would say open on warfare, openly hostile to the work of the department. it's astonishing. and today i think jim jordan announced the investigation into fani willis collude wg the january 6th committee.

that's going to be an investigation led by the oversight chair. i mean they've revised the nature of that insurrection to the degree it believes they almost believe what they're saying. they're getting high on their own supply, jeff. >> right. and, you know, what's interesting here to me, people talk about, well, you know, the countryll survived the first trp term. if hesu wins it's not like the first trump term. and mckayhas a good piece on this in the atlantic. no more grownups as we refer to them, the jim mattises, rex tillerson, bill barrs. all these people who came iprepublicans but people who believed in the rule of law and were there and checked trump's worst impulses. now it's going to be true believers all the way down, right loyalists all the way down. so they are going to -- david frumm refers to the possibility

of a second trump term as a revenge presidency. it's all about punishing enemies. and remember these are people who believe that the insurrectionists are right, and the people who are criticizing them the liz cheneys, the adam kinzingers, the mitt romneys, they're thee traitors. so we're in the upside down, right? and if wesi get there and if trp becomes president again, it's -- i hate to sound dramatic, right? i don't like to do the drama thing, but it's -- it's not going to be the country we know anymore. it's going to be it's going to be hungary in a lot of ways. >> to the piece you wrote wrote in the magazine you mention some of the loyalist jeff alludes to steven miller, jeffrey clark,

vivek ramaswamy, maybe even ted cruz having cabinet level positions, but you alsobri up the point that requires senate level confirmation. how worried do you think the countries too be worried about ksh patel running the cia? >> it's a good question. some of the names being floated for the positions seem pretty unpalatable, you know, to a senate confirmation process. and what they told me was, look, maybe that's true. if we can't get stephen miller, for example, confirmed as head of department of homeland security we can install him as white house chief of staff and he can take over the same roles he would have in that role. i think they're already gaming out ways to get around the challenge of confirmation to ensure that the people most loyal to trump, most obedient to trump are the ones who will have the power. and i think you're going to see

a pretty broad restructuring of government in a second term. you i mentioned this at the top alex, but this isn't just about the cabinet level positions. this isti about, you know, the rank and file government bureaucrats, because there'sgo effect under way to ensure that up to 50,000 federal workers will be50 reclassified, essentially, as pliltical appointees that the president can fire at will. and what that means is that, for example, at the justice department maybe you haveth jeffrey clark or ted cruz or josh hawley as attorney general, put you also have the rank and filers in chargenk of filing subpoenas, putting together lawsuits. all of them willng be replaced could be replaced with hyperloyalists. paul dans at the heritage foundation who worked as the trump office of personnel had -- during the first term told me that they're already putting together long lists of people

who have been voted by them who would make great members of the administration at that level. and one thing he told me that i think is really chilling, and i quote this in the piece. he said the whole notion of the -- an independent justice department needs to be consigned to the ashy book history. he's basically saying the justice department will be used by the president to pursue his vendettas and revenge against his political opponents and enemies, and that's as it should be. and i think it i speaks to the ethos of a second trump term. >> wow. mckay coppins, jeffrey goldberg, really appreciate it. the latest issue on news dance now is entitled "if trump wins." we have much more ahead this evening. as potential jurors in trump's first federal criminal case to go to trial -- as they get something special in their

mailboxes. plus with all the alarm bells ringing about a second trump presidency, my next guest says it's not too late to fight and win and not just at the ballot box. that's next.ll box that's next. (man) mm, hey, honey. looks like my to-do list grew.

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i don't know how to thank you. i'm here to thank you. here's the headline. a trump dictatorship is increasingly inevitable. we should stop pretending. that's an opinion piece by "the washington post" editor at large robert kagen. he continues will those who balked at resisting trump when the risk was merely political oblivion suddenly discover the cost when it's one's family. we continue to drift towards dictatorship, still hoping for some intervention that will allow us to escape the

consequences of our collective cowardice, our complacent, willful ignorance, and above all our lack of any deep commitment to liberal democracy. kagen's editorial is part of a series of alarms nearing a crescendo ahead of the 2024 election. judge michael lutig is arguing that it's not too late. he's leading the american bar association's task force for american democracy alongside jay johnson, president obama's secretary of homeland security. and the goal leer is to outline meaningful steps that can be taken to preserve and protect our demic institutions. joining me now is jay johnson, former secretary under president obama and cochair for the task force for democracy. secretary johnson, thank you for joining me for what i hope could be somewhat positive, optimistic or uplifting conversation. >> thanks for having me, alex.

>> thanks for coming on the set. first tell me about the fact the american bar association is getting involved in an effort to preserve democracy. what legally speaking can and should be done ahead of the next election? >> first of all, it's not just the ada, it's state bar associations that have thrown in with us, and the task force we have assembled are not just lawyers. they're historians. they're people ranging from the head of the urban league to bill kristol, the conservative commentator, all concerned about the future of our democracy. our task force is under way. we're due to deliver a report in august of 2024 just before the election that will make recommendations both long-term and short-term. but in the meantime what we've been doing is trying to reiterate around the country is the importance of a democracy. we're concerned that americans, many americans have lost sight

of the value of a democratic nation as opposed to an autocracy. we're losing sight of the virtues of having a voice in selecting your leaders. >> beyond sort of the obvious it would be better to live in a democracy than an autocracy, how do you make americans re-prioritize something that it seems we've taken for granted as a nation? >> well, we have taken it for granted. and, you know, when i see things like the editorial you read, i'm reminded of what martin luther king used to say, our generation would have to repept not just for the bad people but for the good people who knew better, who stood by in silence who enabled it and let it happen. and there are if a too many in congress. there are far too many in political life allowing frankly donald trump to get the nomination and come perilously

close to a second term as president. and as those on this show previous to me keep saying, this time around the guardrails will be off. there'll be no john kelly who succeeded me as dhs secretary. there'll be no jim mattis who was secretary of defense. there'll be no dancoats because they won't want to serve, and trump won't want them to serve. stephen miller will assembly a team that, first of all, can't get senate confirmation but appointed in acting roles. he's reportedly vetting people already to be general counsel of department of defense, my old job before i was dhs secretary, and general counsel of dhs. those are two positions that matter in trying to effect cht the type of government that donald trump seems to want. >> i've got to ask you as you bring up your position serving under president obama. how secure do you believe the next election will be both in

terms of domestic interference or uprising and also international interference. because if i'm russia and i'm looking -- they're busy granted with the war in ukraine. but if i look at how fractured the way the american public is, the way social media is platforming and intertonying lies especially on a platform like "x," i feel it's ripe for anyone who wants to mess around with american democracy. >> two answers. i have a lot of confidence in our election infrastructure. >> right. >> polling places, recording of election results. there are those who have challenged, but i have a lot of confidence. if you look at the 2020 election in the midst of covid, we had this huge, huge turnout. the great unknown as you point out, social media, and the extent to which foreign or domestic actors may infiltrate

social media with fake news, alarmist attitudes, extremist views, that's the great unknown in our democracy. free speech or free society is both our greatest virtue and our greatest weakness. and so it's going to be incumbent upon people like yourself, others, to continually be truth tellers to the american public. those of us who have a voice, those of us who command a microphone have to continually -- and i learned in washington you've to repeat things eight times before anyone will listen to you. we have to continually point out the fake news, point out the falsehoods. so many americans now are prone to believing fiction, bad fiction, evil fiction because they read it on social media and they don't scrutinize, they just accept it full sale. >> i've got to ask you before we go the courts.

i know you're a man with a legal background, and how confident are you in that part of the system holding? it was critical in 2020, and yet you look at what's happening right now with judge cannon dealing with the mar-a-lago documents case, judge chutkan dealing with the federal election interference case, a study in contrasts. two potentially different outcomes for the same defendant. are you confident that the court system, that the center there will hold? >> i'll answer this way. i believe that our judiciary could be the last best hope in terms of a branch of government that saves our democracy. the courts thus far at the district court level, the appellate level, and even at the level of the supreme court i believe have stood up for our democracy, our democratic norms, our constitution. and at the end of the day they may be the ones that step in and save us. traditionally, the courts have

deferred to the executive branch of government. they've deferred on immigration enforcement and policy. they've deferred on issues of national security and how we spend our money. but in my observation the judiciary sees the executive branch overreaching and the legislative branch sitting back polarized. they've become more involved in areas where they traditionally have not been involved because it's political question or because it's national security, we defer to the military, the judiciary is getting more and more involved. so a lot of these controversial policies we hear are being contemplated in a possible trump administration i'm sure there's going to be litigation over each and every one of them, and very often the result depends upon the venue. >> yep. >> where you go and which judge is selected to hear the case. >> and a skilled team of lawyers, says a man who's part of the aba's task force. secretary jeh johnson, thank you for your time.

thank you for your words of mostly uplift and reminding us the work that needs to be done and we're all part of the project. we have much more ahead this evening. if you're in washington, d.c. tonight, check your mailbox. you probably didn't win publisher sweepstakes clearinghouse, but you might have just gotten the very first sign the jury selection for donald trump's federal interference trial has just begun. that is next. trial has just begun. that is next

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this week some lucky -- probably. some lucky residents of washington, d.c. received a cryptic letter thane their mailboxes. dear prospective jaw, this prescreen is being sent to you to determine your veilable to serve as a juror for a trial. the trial begins on friday march 4, 2024, and the trial may last approximately three months after jury selection is completed. now, we don't know which federal trial those letters are referring to, but march 4th is the scheduled start date for donald trump's federal criminal trial for 2020 election interference. putting on what is very loose-fitting sher lock holmes hat here the three-month time frame mentioned in that letter suggests it will be an important trial. the letter also tells prospective jurors to be available to fill out a juror questionnaire on february 9th of next year, which is the exact date judge tonyah chutkan has

set for jury questionnaires in trump's case. while we can't say it for sure, it definitely looks like the jury selection process for maybe the most important trial in our lifetimes has officially begun. and boy boy, selecting a jury in this case will be a monumental task. it will likely assess whether jurors have any sort of bias concerning one of the most polarizing public figures in our time, which means a lot of skillful intense vetting will be going on here. the same cannot be said for another trump related questionnaire. different but also having to do with potentially overturning the will of the american people. "the new york times" has been reporting on a questionnaire crafted by trump's allies to determine who will be a suitable candidate to serve in a second trump administration. and that document confirms some of the most hair-raising reporting about who frump wants to surround himself with should he take power again. it asks potential candidates for

key government positions whether the u.s. has the right to select immigrants based on country of origin or whether life has a right to legal protection from conception to natural death. it's essentially a job application 250 find unelected federal officials who are willing to let trump do whatever he wants. as the d.c. court begins surveying potential trump jurors, trump's allies are serving a new class of trum sycophants. one tale is people seeking justice and another seeking to subvert it. the question is can those seeking justice manage to

milwaukee another trump presidency obsolete? we have new developments on all that coming up next with neil katyal. t with neil katyal

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there is a tradition in this country. the peaceful transition of power and no hatter how hard fought a campaign is at the end of the campaign that the loser concedes to the winner are you saying you're not prepared to commit to that principle? >> i will say i'll tell you at the time.

i'll keep you in suspense. >> donald trump's unwillingness to commit to the peaceful transfer of power was clear even before he became president. that moment was highlighted in a new d.c. court filing by special counsel jack smith. from that document it appears smith is building his case by pointing to trump's extended history of casting doubt on election outcomes, even elections he wasn't running in. by way of an example the special counsel points to this tweet from election night in 2012 where trump falsely claimed that voting machines had switched votes from mitt romney to barack obama. join me now is neil katyal, former u.s. acting solicitor-general. neil, thank you for being here. and i'm eager to hear your perspective on how meaningful it is here that jack smith is asking to bring in moments from 2012 and 2016 which far predate the 2020 election. >> yeah, i do think, alex, that it is meaningful.

this filing details the evidence of criminal defendant donald trump's bad acts and his conduct that jack smith the prosecutor wants to present to the jury. and frankly, given donald trump's history i'm surprised it was only nine pages long this filing. i'm sure they could have filled a war and peace sized book if they wanted to. but i think what smith is doing here, he's intentionally tipping his hand, alex. he's saying here's the kind of evidence i have against donald trump. prosecutors, of course, turn over all their evidence exculpatory and inculpaatory as part of the decision in brady vs. maryland, you've got to turn over everything. here jack smith is saying. >> the indictment itself is pretty narrow, but feels like in this ruling smith is decide udly more aggressive if that's the

right term to use in terms of the evidence he wants to bring in way a the sort of argument he's going to be making in court. do you think that's a fair assessment? >> yes and no. you're right the indictment is narrower and that in a filing like this what's called 404b evidence is going to be broader, but that's true, alex, in every criminal case. because the indictment is short a short claimed statement of what the crimes are. and what he's doing now is saying here's how i'm going to prove it up, and the law has all sorts of restrictions when you use evidence about bad acts. most importantly you can't use evidence if you're a prosecutor of someone's bad acts in the past to prove they committed another bad act now. so jack smith is not saying oh, trump in 2012 or in 2016 in that clip, you basically signaled you wanted to contest an election no matter how fair that election was, it's not saying, oh, that means you committed a bad act in

2020. rather what he's saying is i'm going to use that evidence to show motive, to show basically you have this plot all along and that it's evidence that goes to your state of mind but not to the bad act itself. >> neal, further in the filing today there is news of an unindicted coconspirator. the filing mentions an orchestrated riot at the tfc building where votes were being counted in the election after 2020. an inundited coconspiratorter who tried to coordinate that riot with a trump campaigner as the vote started trending toward joe biden. this seems like a revelation here. and i wonder if you have thoughts on its inclusion in this filing and also who that unindicted coconspiratorter might be. >> i don't, alish.

i don't want to speculate because i feel i'd be way too far-out on my skis. there's another one i think we can talk about, which is in this filing today jack smith says he wants to introduce evidence of donald trump after january 6th standing up and defending the proud boys and others who are convicted of the january 6th attack. and what smith is basically asking is, look, if you didn't, donald trump, intend this invasion on the capitol, why in the world are you defending them, calling them freedom fighters and all of that? and as a lawyer if donald trump were my client, which of course he never would be, but if he were i'd advise my client to keep your trap shut because of fear of generating precisely this kind of evidence. and lo and behold that's what donald trump has done, generate more evidence against himself. our founder said you have privilege against self-incrimination, but donald trump is masterfully using it to

incriminate himself even further, and that's what the filing today says. >> continuing to play their sound track and calling them hostages. neal katyal, it is always great to have you help make sense of all this. thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you. we have one more story this evening. president biden made a sort of surprising revelation today. he's only running for re-election because of one thing. that thing is coming up next. thing. that thing is coming up next

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president biden was busy campaigning in boston today where the print journalists in the room took note of this comment from him. if trump wasn't running i'm not sure i'd be run, but we can't let him win. now, that's a pretty big statement for a sitting president in his first term and especially with a sitting president with approval numbers that have some democrats actively question whether biden is the person to beat donald trump in 2024. complicating that picture greatly or maybe not so greatly

robert f. kennedy jr., jill stein and potentially west virginia senator joe manchin, and now as of this week former republican congresswoman liz cheney. >> we're at this really unprecedented moment where, you know, our system for so long has meant that we've got a republican candidate, a democratic candidate and contemplating any kind of a third party run is something that most of us would never do. i think this is a different moment, but i'm not going to take any steps certainly that will help him. >> joining us now is jamie harrison, chairman of the dnc, the democratic national committee. >> it is great to be here. >> let me first get your reaction to what president biden said if trump wasn't running, i'm not sure i'd be running. does that raise the stakes or does the president need to make a better case for why he should be re-elected? >> you remember just a few years ago in 2020 the president got in the race because he said he wanted to battle for the soul of

this nation, he wanted to protect the soul of this nation. and it was because of the threat of donald trump. we saw what four years of donald trump meant. we saw how devastated this country was because of trump. and we see that donald trump still has not learned a lesson from that time. he still wants to go after the rights of women to protect their own bodies and to make decisions about their own bodies. he still wants to go after voting rights in nis country. he wants to gut the freedoms. he does not believe in democracy. he believes in revenge, and so the president understands that we cannot allow, you know, odds are donald trump is going to be the nominee for the republican party. we cannot allow donald trump to destroy america, and president biden's is going to stand in that gap like he did before, and so we don't care about the polls and all of the like. it's about making sure that we have the right leader who is fighting for the decency and the freedoms of all americans.

>> i wonder given the stakes you so articiately outline here and given tonight's show what you make of the potential candidacies of congresswoman liz cheney, senator joe manchin, rfk jr. who is polling -- i know you're not worried about the polls but is garnering some legitimate support nationally, and of course jill stein also has her hat in the ring. does that matter as you think about the race next year? >> all of it is a factor and you run your race based on who's in the race. but we know in 2020 joe biden got 80 million votes. no person on this planet, no person in the history of this nation has ever gotten that many votes. and it really doesn't matter who's on the ballot. my grandmother used to tell me jamie, control what you can control. we control what we can do at the dnc in order to support this president, that is making sure

we get the message out and educate folks and mobilize them, we reach out to them and we protect them once they get to the polls. and we have shown even when the polls said in 2022 the polls said that we're going to have this huge red wave, we saw red tears. so we are focused on doing what we have to do. and we have a good track record of showing gnat even when the polls say one thing, the only poll that matters is what happens on election day. >> red tears like blood? no, i'm kidding. i know where you're going with that. a lot of people credit the issue of abortion and the fight over basic reproductive freedoms as giving the democrats the stronger showing on -- in the mid-terms. is president biden the right interlocutor to make the case in terms of what democrats should do with women's bodily freedoms? >> again, we had the mid-terms, just had a series in november in

which reproductive freedom was on the ballot in kentucky, on the ballot in ohio and virginia. and we know where republicans are from nikkei haley to ron desantis to donald trump himself, they all believe there should be a national abortion ban. they all have a track record of fighting against reproductive freedom for women, and we know where joe biden and kamala harris are. they've been protecting as much as they can with the executive authority they have, protecting those rights for women, and they're going to continue to do so. >> one more for you. reid hoffman who is sort of a top democratic donor. >> good friend. >> good friend not in air quotes. gave $250,000 today or this week to a super pac supporting nikki haley. should democratic donors be supporting nikki haley's candidacy in the hope that the worst case scenario here is a biden-haley match up? >> you know, the maga appales on the other side, there's a bag of

maga apples and they're all rotten. i know nikki haley the most because i was a party chair in south carolina when she was governor. this is a person who allowed their own hospital to close. this is person who wants to gut social security and medicare. this is a person who does not believe in a woman's right to choose. she may try to moderate what she's saying now but look at her track record. so my advice to any democrat or anybody else, don't think that nikki haley is the good side of the republican party. she's just as rotten as donald trump is. >> the apple analogy, it works extensively in this conversation. jamie harrison, chair of the dnc, thanks for joining me on the set. that our show for tonight. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. would you be running if trump wasn't running? >> i expect so, but look he is running and i have