so, why do you need ron desantis if you have donald trump? his argument is not there. and right now with trump's strength with republican voters, he has nowhere to go. >> yeah. and certainly seems that haley now emerged as the most viable trump alternative. she is still down 30 odd points in the polls. we'll have complete coverage here on msnbc. susan, thank you for joining us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up way too early on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. tomorrow "time" magazine will name the person of the year. vladimir putin is one of the nine finalists. and so is barbie, the doll. insulting the humans. putin and barbie have a lot more in common than you think. they both live in mansions. they both love horses. they both dabble in the martial arts. they love to play dress-up. you can see they wear many of

the same outfits. putin is basically ruthless dictator barbie. >> all right. good morning. and welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, december 6th. we've got a lot to get to this morning, including donald trump's response to questions about his promise to use a possible second term to seek revenge and retribution. we'll show you what he said. plus, republican senator tommy tubervillle finally drops his hold on hundreds of military promotions. but he's trying to spin it as both sides not getting what they want. let that breathe. also ahead, the partisan fight over the senate's foreign aid package. one contentious issue is threaten to sink the bill. we'll have the very latest from capitol hill. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early" jonathan lemire. congressional investigations reporter for the "washington post," jackie al mayny and white house editor for politico, sam

stein. good to have you all with us this morning. our top story this hour, the israeli military now entered southern gaza's largest city. israeli forces clashed with hamas terrorists and fierce gun battles yesterday. officials described the fighting as the, quote, most intense day since the beginning of the ground operation. israel's widening air and ground offensive has displaced even more palestinians. the united nations estimates more than 80% of gaza's population has now been driven out of their homes since the start of the war. but israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has no plans to stop the assault amid his vow to destroy hamas. yesterday, netanyahu said israel must retain open-ended security control over gaza after the war ends in order to ensure that territory remains demilitarized. he said, quote, no international

force can be responsible for this. i'm not ready to close my eyes and accept any other arrangement. willie? meanwhile, president biden is blaming hamas for the end of the seven-day truce during a campaign event yesterday in boston, the president said the female survivors and witne to the october 7th attacks are now sharing accounts of, quote, unimaginable cruelty. added, quote, the world cannot just look away from what's going on. it's on all of us to forcefully condemn the sexual violence. bide then spoke about the hostages saying, quote, these are civiliawomen, mostly between the ages of 20 and 39. let me be crystal clear, hamas' refusal to release the remaining young women is what broke this deal and ended the pause in the fighting. so, joe, that's what the president campaign event up in boston, among many things he said, that we'll get into yesterday up there. but this is an issue. the sexual violence that has been pushed -- and it has to

have been pushed because so many international organizations have ignored it. this is a central issue now as the president pushes and talks about what hamas is doing and has done to the israelis. >> well, and yet is something, jackie, for some reason, international organizations have not wanted to talk about, and yet the video evidence of unspeakable sexual abuse to -- >> torture. >> torture. sexual torture to israeli women, verified by nbc news. it just is beyond the pale. obviously very shocking that more international organizations are not coming out speaking clearly and strongly against it. and unequivocally, as well as some people on capitol hill. >> it is extremely confounding, especially to see, as you just noted, these progressive lawmakers over the weekend just

pramila jie ya paul twist themselves into knots speaking unequivocally on the issue condemning something that is very clearly -- should be considered a war crime. and again, unequivocally condemned. it's hard to imagine how we've gotten to this sort of situation and environment where even saying that raping women as a tool of war is a controversial thing to say. >> yeah. and sam stein, the raping of women so much so that their pelvic bones were broken and killed. genital mutilation in the most unspeakable terms, i can't even -- we can't even talk about here on television this morning. it's so unspeakable.

and then to the horror of the families after these just poor jewish women were just savaged in the most unimaginable way and paraded with the streets with cheering palestinians, cheering on them being dragged through the streets like meat. like cadavers. and their family members and jews worldwide seeing people celebrating the absolute savaging of jewish women is unspeakable. that's what international organizations and some progress i haves on capitol hill just can't see clear to speak out against in unequivocal terms. it's always yes, but. well, this happens in war. no, it really it doesn't happen. it doesn't happen in all wars. and this is, again, this is next-level violence against women. >> yeah.

you know, when i -- when i initially heard sheryl sandberg speak out about it in a fairly viral video, calling for people to condemn the act of rape as a tool of war, i got to be honest, my initial thought is why does she need to say this? of course everyone will condemn it. it doesn't compute that there was a need to tell people to condemn it. and then of course, joe, to your point, you look around and, in fact, it hasn't been universally condemned or at least people have been equivocating when asked about it. and it's confounding. it should be the easiest thing in the world to say this is a morally repugnant and has no place in society and is against the -- or should be against the rules of war. but, you know, it's hard for me to actually explain what is happening here because it is so confounding. and i do understand what you're saying when you talk to people they want to say, well, it happens on both sides and, you know, this is a modern tool of

warfare. the truth of the matter is you don't need to say that. you can just say this is wrong. this is wrong. it should be condemned. and move on with your life and feel good about it. >> well, it doesn't happen on both sides actually. >> this is a systematic strategy to go in and terrorize and traumatize and this was used as part of their goal to go in there and not just decimate people and kidnap people but also to rape women in front of their husbands, fathers and kids and to have gang rapes happening and to rape them to death. and one woman was shot while she was being raped. this is not just something that sort of happens along the way. this was -- i mean, they juiced themselves up with drugs and ran in there with the intent of doing that to women. >> and not only did that, it was a plan that they were going to savage these women and mutilate them, rape them to death -- >> so it felt a little ignored along the way.

>> they were then going to video tape it so the whole world could see it and video tape these women being paraded around again through gaza while palestinians cheered wildly. again, treated these savaged women who were raped to death like -- again, like trophies. >> animals. >> yeah. the fact is, again, with all due respect to the congresswoman, this doesn't happen in all wars. maybe that's some moral equivocation that makes her sleep better at night. doesn't happen in wars. israelis aren't doing that to palestinian women. they are trying to kilter rorists that hide behind civilians. >> hospitals, schools. basements, under a hospital. >> americans -- if american troops -- and we actually had elise jordan talk about what --

in world war ii, what happened. american troops -- you would be executed if you did something like this. you would be executed. you would be tried and most likely put to death as elise was saying in world war ii. it doesn't happen all over the place. but -- >> but when they do, it's atrocities. there were definite atrocities in ukraine. we're not saying we have never seen this before. but what you saw in this attack on october 7th was a systematic effort to do this to women. and then for weeks to have women's organizations, the u.n., and others finally recognize it. that was the issue. >> the systematic -- >> we'll talk about this more. >> willie, it was systematic. it was planned. it was filmed. and it was distributed so the whole world could see this

absolute barbaric behavior toward women. and there are still people who want to equivocate. >> yeah. not only explicitly in their planning documents, so we know that this was part of a strategy. but it's also on go pro. if you want to be a truther and pretend these things didn't happen on october 7th, shame on you. but we are hearing that equivocation -- i think, joe, probably amounts to a lot of people who think israel is bad generally and wrong here. and so everything that happens in this war they have to lump themselves on the other side. as we said many times, you can want a good life for the palestinian people. you want to respect their humanity, the civilians. you can think that israel is prosecuting the war wrong if that's your opinion. but, my god, if you can't say what happened on october 7th is inhumane and grotesque and wrong and bad, there's something wrong with you. so we'll come back to this war in just a moment. but let's also turn to ukraine because the aid that the united states has been providing

for almost two years now is into question. republicans, republicans so far saying foreign aid is part of a national security bill. the bill also must include money for the southern border. yesterday senate democrats unveiled a $111 billion national serity package which includes foreign aid in measures targeting the border. majority leader chuck schumer said he would give republicans a vote on a republican-written border policy amendment if they vote todayn favor of opening debate on the foreign aid do it separately. the offer was rejected by his counterpart in the senate, republican mitch mcconnell. yesterday schumer warned his republican colleagues what is expected of them and what the republican party of old would think about it. >> if republicans want to bring up immigration right now, right the middle of trying to pass aid to ukraine and other issues, the onus is on them to present serious, bipartisan proposals that can get broad support from

democrats. ronald reagan would be rolling in his grave, rolling in his grave, if he saw his own party let vladimir putin roll through europe. so once again, i urge my republican colleagues to think carefully about what's at stake with this week's vote. what we do now will reverberate across the world for years and decades to come. >> so jackie, take us inside the dynamics in the senate. the house is one thing obviously, but the senate, this braefing yesterday, the bipartisan briefing where the department of defense, department of state tried to prevail upon republicans to get the ukraine funding passed. if we don't fund them, they're going to lose the war, that putin will roll through ukraine. but they want attached to it, to this legislation, border protections, border security, money -- schumer as we heard there, we'll do that but let's do it separately. how is this going to play out? >> that is the fundamental issue here that democrats ultimately

do not want to appropriate this money with border funding and republicans don't trust democrats enough, don't trust what senator schumer proposed there to do this separately because they don't think that it will ultimately get pushed through. and this is life with such slim majorities in both the senate and the house. where these two to three vote majorities, it makes it all but impossible to get things through this highly contentious and polarized environment. especially on these issues, immigration and foreign aid. specially when the republican party, the tides have clearly turned towards this more isolationist posture and overall foreign spending in general is becoming increasingly popular. the more and more administration and democratic lawmakers on the hill try to make the case that we should be dedicating more money towards ukraine, israel, et cetera, you know, in foreign

funding for climate projects and really, you know, spending across the board, the more republicans are doubling down on their desire to with hold that money and then sort of redirect the attention to the lack of funding that the biden administration is throwing their weight behind when it comes to the border, which if you talk to any progressive, hispanic, congressional caucus groups, they simply don't believe that money will make any sort of difference on the border. that there is an inherent policy problem when it comes to immigration. and that just throwing resources, more border patrol, et cetera, is not going to make any kind of difference and is really just sort of a performative throwing some red meat at an issue to rile up the base ahead of a big election year. >> so, jonathan lemire, that may be what progressive lobbying groups think on capitol hill. that is not what independent voters, that is not what swing

voters in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, georgia, arizona and nevada think. it's not even close to what they think. immigration is a massive issue and will be a massive issue in 2024 for these groups. maybe not the general electorate at large, but for these groups, this is going to be a significant issue. you go through any polling, you look through polls with independent voters in new hampshire and independent voters in all of these places, the border actually is -- because there's chaos there. and we have said barack obama and joe biden's administration, when they left, had the lowest number of illegal border crossings from mexico in 50 years.

things have gotten worse through the last two administrations. so, i guess, i don't understand. tell me what the thinking is of democrats. i don't understand why democrats don't trade ukraine funding for strong border security. we've said it here before. if i were democrats, i would say, okay republicans, i see your border security bill and i raise you some. they have to go into this election showing independent, swing voters, disaffected republicans, let me say the states again in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, georgia, arizona, nevada, let me add new hampshire to that. voters who want to see this white house and this democratic party doing something significant on border security. >> yeah. and those in the white house will say privately they

recognize that border security and immigration writ large is a real political weakness for this president heading into his election year. there's a willingness to deal but there's a question of how much and what they want to be seen as doing. but now the republicans are -- some republican senators still want to make this happen but they seem to be at a real impasse right now. jackie, people i talk to on the hill last day or so, they feel like the votes aren't there. they're really not sure how this package is going to get done, we're going to barrel into the winter holidays, that recess, unable to provide aid to israel or ukraine, to come up with border security, none of it. i'm curious as to, a, what you think with your own count, but talk the role mitch mcconnell for so long was a champion, a real champion among republicans for ukraine aid but now seems to be somewhat diminished his ability to get a deal done. >> mcconnell has seen the writing on the wall and actually advised his members to vote against the package because he thinks that they need to take a

stand and sort of take this show boat to show that they're not going to budge on border security. but the conversations that my colleagues and i have been having all week and actually really since last week is that we need to reckon with the fact that ukraine funding is probably not going to get done. even israel funding, which every single person in the u.s. congress is mostly behind. there are some discrepancies on how many conditions or assurances some people want. bernie sanders came out with that letter yesterday that called for the u.s. to take -- for biden to at least enforce currently existing u.s. laws when it comes to giving, appropriating that aid to israel in the way they're spending that, making sure they're not bombing civilians with u.s. bombs when -- as they continue their attack on gaza. but i doubt -- you heard gop members say this last week, that

any of this is going to get done if anything does get done before christmas. you had max miller, one of the only jewish members in the house gop conference say last week that he was infuriated by this. that even in the case that something did ultimately come to the house floor in this very little time left before the christmas holiday, christmas recess, that speaker said there needs to be offsets when it comes to israel funding. that's not going to go through in the senate. so it is, you know, mcconnell and johnson are at odds with each other and it's reflective of the entire system and the way things are working in congress right now. >> what an absolute shock that the new speaker is once again a raging hypocrite, once again. on just about everything. i can't believe again read the bible, what, hypocrisy, lying it is constant. offsets. did he talk about offsets with donald trump -- >> january 6th.

>> i know. that's what i'm saying. he lies about it through his teeth. i don't know. i haven't read that in the gospels. i haven't read that you can lie if you want to gain power. you can lie -- you know, it's a liz cheney talking about her conversations with mike johnson. you know this is wrong. you're constitutional arguments. yeah, i know it's wrong. i know there's no basis for what i'm doing. basically, i know i'm lying but i want to get close to donald trump. like the pursuit of power, he's actually become -- he's just like a tell evangelist, really is. jim and tammy fay baker 2023. and he's lying to republicans. he's lying to evangelicals. he's lying through his teeth. and now even on something as fall as offsets. we have to have off sets. despite the fact that donald trump and i raised the deficit and raised the national debt, more in four years than any

president did for the first 220 years in american history. now, he wants offsets. it's so hypocritical. sam stein, though, i have a question. i asked about -- that's why this deal makes so much sense. i asked about the biden administration. why don't they do the deal on border security, be strong and tough, right? well, i'm wondering, do the republicans really want to go into 2024 being the party that allowed vladimir putin to complete his invasion of a sovereign country in europe? first time since hitler and 1941. does he really want to be -- do republicans really want to be that party? do they want to be the party that won't fund israel against hamas? that's how it's lining up. >> yeah. i mean, really comes down to what each party thinks is the potency of each issue, right? democrats recognize f you talk to them, that they have a vulnerability when it comes to

migration at the southern border, border reform policies. in fact, our of thing indicates that the biden administration in particular is pressing hill democrats to get a deal. they both recognize that it is a logistical nightmare at the border. they're hearing from tons of democrats in municipalities as well as governors who say we are getting inundated with migrants being shipped up to us or making their way to us and also know that republicans will use this as an issue. on the flip side, joe, to your point, you have to wonder are there some republicans saying to themselves do we want to go into 2024 being the ones who voted down a package for ukraine and israeli aid? could that be used against us? i think it can. i mean, you would have to imagine in prior times that would be a vulnerability politically. all of which suggests that there might be opening for some sort of deal or paired down deal. but of course, everything is sort of like it's all about the details. right? if you go into the details of the immigration policy reforms,

each side agrees that there should be reforms to the asylum system, but they have disagreements whether there should be an end to humanitarian parole, for instance. the nitty-gritty details this thing is going to live or die. right now it looks like it's not on a path to salvation honestly. coming up in just one minute, atlantic frank gore will join us with his piece for the special issue of the magazine outlining the threats of a potential second term for donald trump. plus, the former president gave voice to some of those warnings in an interview last night on fox news. we'll show you those comments in 60 seconds. >> and tommy tubervillle, he folds, he folds after wrecking the lives of military men and women for a year. >> hope it was worth it. ♪♪ women for a year. >> hope it was worth it. ♪ move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well.

we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. if you're looking for a medicare supplement insurance plan that's smart now... i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. >> would you be running for president if trump wasn't

running? >> i expect so, but look, he is running. and i have to run. >> would you drop out if trump dropped out? >> no. not now. president biden yesterday when asked to clarify comments he made -- >> this is a problem. this is a problem. so, he says early in the day, i probably wouldn't be running if trump wasn't running. he's just talking to donors. you just say things, right? fsu deserves to be in the college football championship. you just say things that you don't mean because they're ridiculous, but that's a problem. we've kbot a culture that's got -- like tv shows, willie, talking about politics for four hours. that's not good for america. >> can you imagine? >> disaster. >> no, i can't. can you imagine waking up at 4:30 and talking for tour hours? >> you would have to be sert fiable to do that. not well.

not well. >> crazy. but willie, so he says -- i probably wouldn't be running if trump weren't running. off handed comment. this is the biggest story of all time. no, not really. i could name quite a few more. >> including fsu apparently top of mind for you. i think we'll get to that in just a little while. jonathan lemire, set off some alarm bells. but what he was talking about through that entire event was what a danger donald trump was. what a danger donald trump is and would be if he were elected again. i've got to stand in the door way of democracy and that's effectively why i'm running against him. clarified a little bit there. >> why it raised eyebrows is what president biden said aloud and most people indicated that he is running again because he views donald trump as a fundamental threat to our nation's democracy. and that that's why he has to be defeated. and there are questions, of course, we know when biden ran the first time, he considered --

thought he might be a transitional candidate. he's only going to serve one term and hand off to the next generation. he never pledged to do that. and he has made very clear that he is running -- he is running again -- it comes at a moment where some democrats very nervous about the president's poll numbers, but you are right that this is a moment where it's really, joe, that the biggest -- the reason why he said it and the reason why it's in the ether is because there is so much conversation rightly about what a second trump term would look like. great media coverage about it and a number of trump's former officials including mark esper on this very network yesterday warned that our democracy would be in danger were trump to win. that's what biden was trying to get at. >> and his people that are going to be around him are saying, we're coming for you. we're going to go after and prosecute -- again, we're going after everybody. so, they're saying it. again, i have to say, jonathan, there's a debate. there's been a debate for some time. how hard joe biden should go

against donald trump. and which is ridiculous, i think, because donald trump goes after joe biden everyday and the reason joe biden is running is because of the danger donald trump poses to america. and now you got the governor, i saw "the new york times" article, the governor, he shouldn't talk about donald trump. he should talk about wind turbines or whatever they were talking about. >> a lot of other things to talk about. >> so stupid. >> abortion. >> cut your ribbons and go visit your water management districts, governors. and you do your thing and let the president run the campaign he needs to run. but, there is this pressure for some reason for him to not talk about a man who is promising to terminate the execution. execute disloyal generals. take news networks off the air. continue to take rights away

from women. take health care away from working class americans. >> put personal valets in the administration instead of expert. >> again, to prosecute, to go after, to execute people. and to do it on this first day in office. like he's promising to do this. again, why is that debate going on whether he should go after donald trump or not? >> steve bannon, kash patel, reiterated yesterday among their first targets would be the news networks that donald trump opposes. that they're making clear -- they said, we're coming for you if trump were to win again. and there had been some debate within the biden world as to the best approach. joe, you and i talked a lot this year about how over the summer they tried to focus on more of a pro-biden, bidenomics message work. that shifted. i first reported and we talked about it right around the election day, a month or so back, this campaign pivoted and now drawing contrast after contrast after contrast with

trump. they've gone on the attack. they have basically everyday highlighted something trump has said and said, look, this is what he did before in his first term. this is what he's promised again in the second term. we won't be the same country on the other side were he to be president again. >> right. and i have to say, willie, "the new york times" piece talking to the governor, just stay away from donald trump. that worked well for rand paul. that worked well for marco rubio. that worked well -- it's working well for republicans. oh, we're just going to talk about how green the pastures will be and how daffodils will sprout throughout america if we're allowed to be -- no. they're running against a guy who wants to destroy democracy. if you want to beat him, you have to destroy him politically. politically. day in and day out and go after him day in and day out. but, again, all these candidates keep thinking, we can win if we

just ignore donald trump. >> even the republicans. >> the republicans. all the republicans think that. we can just win if we just ignore donald trump. it doesn't work. >> it's not working in the republican primary, that's for sure. and what if, as the white house and the biden campaign would argue, you could do both things, which is go after donald trump and brag about the economy and brag about the infrastructure bill and the achievements you think you've had over the last four years. that's how you run a campaign. so, they're starting to do that. definitely putting their foot on the gas against donald trump. perhaps because of moments like this, last night in a fox news town hall, sean hannity asked donald trump twice, coaching him along as he often does in these interviews if trump planned to abuse his power if elected to a second term. trump told the iowa audience he would not be a dictator except his first day in office. >> to be clear, do you in any

way have any plans if re-elected president to abuse power? to break the law? to use the government to go after people? >> you mean like they're using right now. so in the history of our country, what's happened to us, again, has never happened before. over nonsense, over nothing, made up charges. i often say al capone, he was one of the greatest of all time, if you like criminals, he was a mob boss, the likes of which car face they call him. and he got indicted once. i got indicted four times. >> i want to go back to this one issue, though, because the media has been focussed on this and attacking you under no circumstances. >> yeah. >> you are promising america tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody? >> except for day one. >> except for -- >> he's going crazy. >> meaning. >> i want to close the border and i want to drill, drill, drill. no, no -- >> that's not retribution.

>> i'm going to be -- i'm going to be -- you know, he keeps -- we love this guy. he says you're not going to be a dictator, are you? no, no, no, other than day one. >> it's kind of like that. >> believe him. >> we talked about. we talked about this. remember. donald trump doesn't do it. you didn't take all those documents back to your beach club? i did and i had the right to do it. hannity kind of droops his head. but the point is, again, he's saying now just explicitly, i'm going to do a bunch of stuff on day one. anybody believes it's going to end on day one, i have a bridge to sell you across the river here. so this is what we're hearing from donald trump more and more. it's the reason we're hearing more and more from joe biden about the dangers of a potential second term. >> willie, think about it, if any other politician in american history were asked a question, are you going to be a dictator, no. donald trump never answered it. he never answered it. and when he said -- i just

want -- there's a sickness, there is a sickness among unfortunately some of our fellow americans regarding authoritarianism and totalitarianism. they want it. because willie, when he promised that he would be a dictator on day one, he got applause. even before -- >> well, that's on fox news. there's a lot of people watching who are right on board. >> even before he talked, even before he talked about the border, which majority of americans would support closing the border today. probably overwhelming majority are drilling. by the way, what a stupid thing to say. drill, drill, drill. what a stupid thing to say. you can tell he doesn't read the newspapers. and the people applauding that don't even read the newspapers. u.s. oil production -- >> yep. >> record highs.

we are drilling more and producing more oil whether you like it or not. we are drilling more oil now than the saudis -- getting more oil out of the ground than the saudis. getting more oil out of the ground than russia. what are you going to drill, your teeth? we're already doing it. like -- but that just shows, willie, how stupid he is. and i've got to say, people who applaud drill, drill, drill, how stupid they are because that's what we're doing right now. in fact, biden's administration, a lot of people on the left aren't going to like this. they're -- like their presidency has seen more oil production than any other presidency in u.s. history. and yet they applaud drill, drill, drill. >> they also could be victims of a cult-like personality. >> well, listen, this is -- >> the way it's not good for america. >> this is a personality cult.

it's very bad for america. and make no mistake of it, a large chunk of those people in that audience cheering when donald trump said i'll be a dictator on day one. well, they want that. >> yeah. look at the polling. this race is going to be close, right down to the end, because of the applause you heard in that room last night. let's talk more about this with staff writer at the atlantic, frank fore. one of the contributors to the special issue on the threats a second trump term would pose. his piece is titled "corruption unbound." yesterday, frank, we were talking about the policy stuff about david fromm, the implications of withdrawal from nato. which corruption are you writing about this morning? >> right. if you go back and look at the first trump term, there was a great deal of corruption. you had cabinet secretaries traveling on private jets. you had paid for by people whose they were administering. you had people who wanted to

change policy, paying the trump resorts and hotels enormous sums of money with the hopes that that too would change policy. we also saw the way the first trump term that trump tried to use the regulatory state to punish enemies. well, that was all just a dry run. even figured out the way that the system works. so if the first trump term was what paul described as malevolence tempered by incompetence. the second trump term would be tempered by all of the experience that was gleaned. there is know how now. and there's a term that the hungarians have to describe what emerged there under viktor orban which is a mafia state emerged. trump officials come in, install their cronies in power, install the deep state, those cronies have no allegiance to higher norms or higher values. they will all be susceptible to

corruption. and the way the system works is that you start to have this corruption that emerges at the center and is protected by all of these foot soldiers who were also profiting along the way. >> frank, i want to start with highlighting another line from president biden at one of the fundraisers in boston last night talking about trump, saying he didn't show up to my inauguration which i can't say was disappointment. he added, my guess is he won't show up at my next inauguration either. certainly confident joe biden there. ones that democrats cheer. polls suggest this is a tight race, to willie's point. on the idea of political corruption, were trump to get that second term, talk how he could enrich himself even further, family members, staffers, loyalists in doing so at the expense of civil servants of career professionals and the american taxpayer. >> well, we saw the way in which his family clearly enriched themselves along the way. and on the way out the door got

paid billions of dollars by foreign governments. you saw the way in the first trump term where foreign governments that wanted to manipulate trump were able to spend money on his properties. the government of qatar bought a building -- bought a unit in a trump building for $6 million. trump never disentangled himself from his vast network of business interests. and so those -- that vest network of business interests becomes ripe target that governments around the world, that interests in the united states all know that they can spend money on, invest in with the hopes of changing policy here. that is the very definition of corruption. >> frank, it's sam stein here. you paint such a pleasant picture of civil society for us. u really appreciate it. i guess my question is why don't people -- i mean, you look at these polls and willie just mentioned it will be a close race regardless. at this juncture it's fair to

say that trump is probably the favorite to win. i guess, why do people not find these issues -- why do they not find the persuasive and see political salience in these issues? why do people seem drawn to a degree what trump is overtly talking about, day one dictatorships? >> well, first of all, one of the things that happened during the first trump term was that at the beginning it wasn't very clear how much corruption his own party would tolerate. but over time, it became clear that the norms had shifted. that his party was willing to forgive whatever corruption happened on his side. corruption simply was a bludgeon that you could use to wield against democrats, but never against your own team. your own team was never corrupt. so you have the way in which it's become a polarized sort of issue. but i do think in the end the democracy questions will be the most powerful quiver in joe

biden's boat. that in 2022, he framed that election as a binary choice between himself and trump-style authoritarianism with abortion being one of the primary illustrations of that and it worked. >> yeah. it did work. and this is what's so interesting, though, about donald trump. you know, orwell i used this quote quite a few times. george orwell in one essay talking about the difference between fascist and communists. fascists are unusually successful at propaganda. turning things around. confusing the electorate. >> normalizing. >> confusing the american people. you look at donald trump now, saying wait a second, joe biden is using that democracy threat as a cud jell to say, what i'll

say is that joe biden is a threat to democracy. that's what he's doing. playground equivalent of no i'm not, you are. look at corruption. >> right, when you see -- >> not just what donald trump has done but look what all of the right wing media has done. they have gotten a son that had problems with crack. they have chased down every lead they could chase down. they made fools of themselves time and time again. but it has worked. they're lying about the corrupt biden family. like clarence thomas' wife talking about the biden crime family should be on barges outside of gitmo. repeating this lie, this fascist attempt, this fascist lie, over and over and over again. you look at the polls, it's worked. so, now half of americans see

joe biden as corrupt as donald trump when, of course, it's such -- we could list it for four hours. it is such a preposterous argument and yet because fascists are so good at propaganda, it's actually working. >> right. ginni thomas flew on leonard leo's private jet on her way of making that accusation against joe biden. it's true. you look at -- there is clearly this nub of a narrative where hunter biden did a lot of shady things. and that then was inflated by the fox news, republican problem propaganda machine. one of the worst in history. one of the worst cases of corruption. and you know, i think that a lot of us would like to believe that that type of misinformation, that type of spun-up narrative is something that would only

exist within the minds of the people who watched fox news all day long. but when you have the power of the congressional bully pulpit and look in the ways in which media has miscovered this issue along the way, you can see that that narrative has traveled into the mainstream. there are a lot of independent voters, a lot of democrats who also seem to believe that joe biden is corrupt. and so the issue becomes much more muddy than it should be. >> frank foer, thank you very much. his piece for the atlantic special issue is online now. and his book, "the last politician" inside joe biden's white house and the struggle for america's future, is available right now. frank, thank you very much. and coming up, former u.s. capitol police sergeant is our guest to discuss his new book "american shield" the immigrant sergeant who defended democracy.

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we want transparency. we should demand that the american people do. we trust, house republicans, trust the american people do draw their own conclusions. we should not -- they should not be dictated by some narrative and accept that as fact. they can review the tapes themselves. we're going through a methodical process of releasing them as quickly as we can. we have to blur some of the faces of persons who participated in the events of that day because we don't want them to be retaliated against and to be retaliated against. to be charged by the doj, and to have other concerns and problems. >> okay. lie, after lie after lie. i would love to see his bible. >> what bible is he reading? >> look at my bible. that's how i live. >> life after lie after lie. he's lying about transparency. liz cheney was saying yesterday release all the tapes. he's not going to release all

the tapes. he'll release selected portions of it. as far as the blurring of the faces, willie, the fbi has all of the footage. >> right. >> they've got the footage. who is he lying to? the press is not stupid enough to believe him. is he insulting republicans? like why would he lie like that? the fbi has all the footage. so the doj has all the footage. who is he lying to, willie? maybe he's just lying to himself. i don't know. again, it's an interesting bible he has there. >> it's important to understand the narrative in the maga echo chamber the story we've all seen is made up by the deep state, media, in fact there were fbi agents there and it was a plot by the government. as these videos have come out and people in the maga media have said look, see, there's an

fbi agent reporters have said no, here is who that is. he's in jail right now. he's a civilian who stormed the capitol, beat up a cop, whatever it is. i don't know why mike johnson is doing this other than to curry favor with the base and donald trump, keep his job i guess. that was mike johnson, the speaker yesterday, talking about blurring footage from the capitol attack before releasing it publicly because he doesn't want january 6th rioters to be charged with crimes. johnson's deputy chief of staff tried to clarify those remarks posting on social media the house will be blurring the faces to protect those who participated from forms of retaliation by non-governmental actors. he added the department of justice already has access to the unblurred footage. as we said the speaker said he's leasing the footage to counter the january 6th committee's presentation of the attack on the capitol. jackie, how are they trying to explain their way out of this one. he was explicit about the doj there. >> i wasn't on the hill yesterday, so i wasn't able to

follow up in person with johnson and press him about this. i think it's as simple as you said, willie. this is johnson trying to curry favor with a growing pocket of the house gop conference that, you know, is -- has been campaigning on vying for freedoms for these insurrectionists, 400 who have been charged by the department of justice, who already have access to all of this footage. johnson is realizing that his honeymoon is coming to an end as hardliners, especially those in the house freedom caucus, the same people who have been advocating for the insurrectionists, for what they have said, have claimed without evidence as the mistreatment behind bars, and this is johnson just trying to show even though it really -- it doesn't make all that much sense, he is behind

them, and he sees them. >> beyond the lies that they're telling, it remains politically confounding they want to go back to this issue. let's talk about january 6th as we turn the corner to a presidential election. most americans believe january 6th was a terrible day and the people who beat up police officers and defaced the capitol deserve what they get and what may be coming to them, and yet, donald trump still wants to talk about january 6th, the 2020 election, going to issue pardons, the speaker of the house talking about the videos and the people trying to change the story. politically it's wild. >> first on the tactics of it, to jackie's point, there's some school of thought that johnson is trying to throw olive branches to the hard right on this, the january 6th footage, as well as the impeachment inquiry because he's trying to cut some sort of deal to give himself cover to get a spending deal done that might make the hardliners have to make a vote they don't want. the larger point this is still part of the ongoing effort, mike, of republicans trying to downplay what happened on

january 6th. i have to say, they've been very successful, at least with their own base. republicans do not think what happened on january 6th was all that bad. it was a protest that got out of hand, and that's part of a larger effort to normalize what happened to help donald trump overcome that as he seeks a second term. >> you're 100% correct. they have succeeded in doing all of that. the interesting thing about the speaker's comments yesterday, the irony of his comments yesterday, where they're going to fuzz up the faces of the potential people in the crowd in order to protect them from future retribution or retaliation, and yet you have liz cheney on this air and other programs saying that she knew personally many members of congress who would have voted to impeach trump, but they were afraid for their families because of the retribution that would be impacted upon their families. that's what we're dealing with. >> so let's talk to somebody who was there on the front lines that day as we continue to learn more about the emotional and physical toll they had on the

members of law enforcement who bravely defended the capitol on january 6th. former capitol police sergeant ac lean no gonell will be our guest in a moment. what he recounted in the few months after the attack. >> to be honest i did not recognize my fellow citizens who stormed the capitol on january 6th or the united states as they claim to represent. the rioter called me a traitor, disgrace, he shouted that i, i, an army veteran and police officer, should be executed. for most people january 6th happened for a few hours. for those of us who worked and who were in the thick of it, it has not ended. they continue to be a constant trauma for us literally every day, whether because our physical or emotional injuries

or both. >> former u.s. capitol police sergeant gonell joins us now, out with a memoir titled "american shield, the immigrant sergeant who defended democracy." sergeant, thank you for being with us this morning. it's great to have you back on the show. i'm just curious before we dive in a little bit to the book, your reaction as you hear leadership in the republican party and loud voices in the media try to rewrite the story of what happened on january 6th? >> good morning. thanks for having me back. in respect of the new speaker of the house, conflating some of the events and trying to rewrite history, it's amazing. this is the same person who probably is a material witness to the events of january 6th, and if i were in his position, of course i would also want to blur out some of the images. but then again, this is coming from a party that claims to be

in support of law and order and the rule of law. in the same sentence yesterday he said, we are the party of law and order. we want to blur out some of the faces of these people so they cannot be arrested and prosecuted, and also saying that he wants to be transparent. how can you be transparent and when can you separate those things in the same sentence? in relation to what we are experiencing since january 6th, they keep telling us that we need move on from that day, the officers and those who have spoken out, yet the former president is running just on january 6th alone by calling those insurrectionists hostages. if they are hostages and political prisoners, what does

that make us, the police officers? we defended the capitol and kept our oath and did what we signed up for. >> sergeant gonell, you came to the united states of america when you were 12 years of age from the dominican. >> yes, sir. >> within a decade, you were going to iraq wearing the uniform of the united states of america as a united states army member. then you became a member of the capitol police force and you wore the uniform of the united states capitol police. we know what happened to you. we know what happened on january 6th. what do you think today of the united states of america? >> i mean, it's -- we're going through tremendous times. it's amazing, as i speak in my book "american shield," you have a lot of people that claim to be conservative, claiming to be supportive of the constitution, of our democracy, and we have even gone to war for it. that's one of the main reasons

we ended up in iraq in the first place, and as a soldier and also as a police officer, i devoted half of my life to defending and protecting this country. january 6th was no different for me. to hear some of these people, the very same people, who i protected with the time we allotted them to hide in their safe house or evacuate the building the same day, first it was -- it was antifa, then the fbi, then these are innocent people, then these are political prisoners, then these are hostages, then they desecrate our national anthem with creating a january 6th anthem and the former president also used that as a badge of honor, so this is -- condoning that behavior for future use, it's

amazing that they have abandoned and betrayed those principles and values as i speak in my book. >> so sergeant, on the topic of your book "american shield," which is available now, tell us a little bit more about your long road to recovery after the injuries you suffered there on january 6th, and what you think about your own future? >> i have made a lot of strides, both physical, mental, and also morally. you know, it's been, you know, from the image that you show me test nag front of the congress is almost three years. it's night and day for me. a lot of the physical injuries have healed. however, the moral and the mental are the ones that plays a big part of my life because how can i -- if i were to be a -- if i were a police officer still, how can i do my job impartially

when some of the very same people who i protected now say nothing happened. if something else were to happen, insurrection part two happen, would they help me secure the door of the capitol or would they restrain me to prevent me from doing my job? that's a constant fear. i think some of the officers who still work at the capitol may have, you know. we are protecting, yes, we're supposed to be neutral in terms of those things, but how can you not, when some of the very same people who we protect are calling for threats, am ply fiing those -- amplifying those threats and desecrating the officer paid the price as we saw he's doing and the action he took on that day. you know, he didn't die, perhaps, out of a hit, but he died as a result of that horrific day on january 6th.

many people need to realize that. it was not a peaceful protest get out of hand. this was a deliberate attack, as i mentioned in my book "american shield" and people need to learn. my story, my book, is not just about january 6th. it's about sacrifices that i made throughout my life since arriving here in the united states. learning the language, assimilating, overcoming a lot of obstacles and adversities and devoting half of my life both in the military and as a capitol police, to defend this country for the opportunity to -- >> your story -- >> so, so, sergeant, this is like -- let me just say, i am so grateful for you and your service to america as an immigrant who came to this country, who learned the english language, who not only assimilated and succeeded, but

chose to wear the uniform, to serve our country in combat, and then to become a police officer, it is an extraordinary story in "american shield." what a book. i would guess that fox news is calling you nonstop to have this incredible patriotic american success story on. when are you going on fox news and newsmax and the joe rogan show. i want to know because i want to vcr it. >> i want to tune in. >> because this is -- this is patriotism personified in one man, and i'm so grateful for your service to this country. when are you -- do you have any plans to go on fox news or newsmax or any of those shows? >> well, they have not reached out to me. if they do, i'll let you know so you can tune in and record it.

but i'm willing to speak to them. i mean, these are the same people that -- >> it's great. >> claim to be wanting immy grants, like me -- immigrants like me, somebody who assimilates, come here legally, who gets an education, pays for their taxes, somebody who joined the military, somebody who is a police officer, or was a police officer, somebody who protected our democracy, these are the checkmarks that they claim to want from immigrants when they talk about reform, and yet, they -- as i speak in my book "american shield," these are the ideals and principles they don't want to talk to me because i don't fit their narrative of it was another entity other than trump's supporters who attacked the capitol. it's a great disservice to people like me and people around the country, because they are clearly lying to the american people when they say nothing happened on january 6th. what i would like to --

>> let me know -- >> what i would like to have is the speaker of the house, mike johnson, to release the tapes of them themselves running for their lives when they were being evacuated by the capitol police while i was fighting in the tunnels, those are the tapes he should be releasing, not the walk around peaceful protests that he claims to -- the people were doing. >> well, unfortunately, he's lying to the american people when he says he wants transparency. he wants the opposite. he doesn't want people to see what happened to you, what happened to other officers, what happened when he -- when members of congress were running as quickly as they could to escape. i just want to get back to you and just thank you for your service to america. i want you to know that here at least, i don't know why other networks wouldn't want to have you on, here, at least, we salute your patriotism. we salute your service to this country. we salute you going in to combat. we salute you for all of your

service in iraq. we salute you for wearing the uniform as a police officer. we thank you, and we're very grateful you came here. the book "american shield the immigrant sergeant who defended democracy." what a great american story, mika. it makes me proud. >> absolutely. >> being an american. >> it does. >> where at least i know i'm free. seriously. >> news networks covered this story as he has written. >> i think everybody will. why wouldn't you want to cover this story? >> sergeant gonell, thank you so much for being on this morning. >> speaking of service to america, a republican who made serving in uniform so much more difficult over the past year, for some stupid political stunt, finally caved. >> yeah. republican senator tommy tuberville dropped his blanket hold on military promotions

after more than 10 months without receiving any of the concessions he was previously demanding, so he got, let me think about it here, nothing. >> he got nothing, except, you know, this is a guy, look at him. >> coach. >> again, what passes for patriotism, what passes for like christianity these days, kind of crazy. i go back to mike johnson saying, just look at the bible, that's what i do. >> read -- >> and then you see one lie after another. tommy tuberville, you know, campaigning as a patriotic american. all he does is attack the military. >> yeah. >> says they're weaker than ever. what a lie. what a lie. what a lie to say that our men and women in uniform are weaker than ever. they're stronger than ever. they're more powerful than ever. they have -- they are relative to the rest of the world, tommy, relative to the rest of the world our military is stronger than it has ever been and if you

don't believe it, you ask our enemies. you ask people that cross the united states military and they will tell you. but can you believe we've gotten to a state where the republican party has senators who say they would -- they would rather our troops being like russian troops who have been routed by ukraine and then says our united states military is weaker than ever. what a complete total lie, and slander to the marines, to the soldiers, to the sailor, to the airmen, to those who serve in the coast guard. what an insult to all our servicemen and women that the republican party has senators who say, our military is weaker than ever when it's stronger than ever. >> the sick twist, joe, is that any challenges this military might be facing, i mean, they will overcome them, but any challenges that it might be

facing, is because of this senator blocking promotions, hundreds of them. joining the conversation we have former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill, host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch" is with us, political columnist for politico jonathan martin, jack my allah mainly and mike barnicle with us as well. >> senator, i'm not being glib when i say i'm proud to be an american. i have been my entire life. i'm so proud of the men and women in uniform. i can't thank them enough for their service and read history and know history and i also know that our military right now relative to the rest of the world, stronger than it has been since 1945. and yet, you have republicans like tommy tuberville trashing them and saying they are weaker

than ever. what gives? >> well, first of all, everything is upside down. the idea that they are hijacking aid to ukraine as a loyal member of nato and they're hijacking aid to israel and they're hijacking aid to taiwan over domestic policy that they have not managed a bipartisan vote on since 2013 when i was still in the senate, but i got a kick out of tuberville yesterday. he's so dumb. you know, couch actually said to the press outside of the capitol yesterday that it was a draw. well, joe, in language that coach would understand, no, this was alabama 62, auburn 0, and the last two points were a safety, where he was tackled in his own end zone. this was not a draw. he took on heavy water politically and, you know,

frankly, while all of us were frustrated that schumer was not willing to completely dominate the floor action with overcoming tuberville's hold, he finally managed to get the republican party to turn on him. and that was a big deal. this happened because the republican party turned on one of their own. you would like to see them be halfway aggressive with donald trump, because he's just as dumb and frankly as unstable as coach is, and coach is out of his depth here and, frankly, didn't know what he was doing, and has hurt our military. importantly, the military families. by the way, he's still holding several four-star generals. four-star generalsre important in terms ofilitary readiness. he has not really given up yet. i think he wants to suit up again and, once again, he will be dominated on the field by his arch rival. >> by the way, "the wall street

journal" editorial page slightly more subtilely making the point claire is making suggesting that tommy tuberville was maybe an easy mark for right wing activist groups so they can get their message out an get nothing in the end. policy hasn't changed. the question is, why now? why did he give up this fight, ten months, hurting america's readiness, keeping families in limbo, all of this, to what end? >> i think it was a confluence of factors. claire is absolutely right, the pressure from his own colleagues was certainly moved him, at least a little bit. chuck schumer was threatening to force a vote on a resolution that would basically allow lawmakers to circumvent the vote to confirm some of these people in mass. at the end of the day i don't think it's a surprise after democrats showed in the offseason election they can still win on abortion, and as joe biden and democrats have struggled with a lot of other issues, amongst especially young

voters, his position on israel right now, his age that a lot of people are increasingly uncomfortable with, abortion is still the issue that is winning for democrats and that you've got to think that tuberville realized is not the hill he wants to die on, or at least wants the republican party to die on going into next year. >> there's a question, though, that lingers in all of this, this problem is not gone away completely. claire pointed out there are 11 four-stars awaiting promotions and assignments he's still holding up, but the school year began in august and september for many, many, many military families, and they put their kids in the school where they were posted then. they may have been posted elsewhere in the interim. you may have had a head of household, a father, soldier or mother who was a soldier, sent somewhere else, other than where the children are going to school. that family is disrupted for an entire year because of one

thing, this dope, and he is a dope. tommy tuberville. donnie, i don't know about you, but the idea that we spend so much time legitimately on what he has done to damage the military at the expense, which we don't spend enough time talking about, at the expense of the families involved. >> the republicans are upside down on about every issue that matters. jackie, as you said, abortion, guns, obamacare, and they lose the military. i mean, if i was putting together a campaign for the democrats in 2024, i would have starting with millie and every other general, every other secretary of defense, to say that this is not a group, this is not a party, that is behind the military the way they need to be. this is a president that shames the military, shames our defense system and once again, i'm going to use the military as part of my weaponry for lack of a better word in a political campaign.

>> all right. the heads of three top -- >> wait. i kind of like -- >> pause. >> watching donny, with a pregnant pause, staring off in the distance somewhere. it was awkward. >> can we keep it on him. >> poor donny. i'm going to be nice to donny today, but that's not really our schtick. >> in fairness the jeans are extra snug today. >> are they really? >> i can't do it. i'm glad i'm not there. donny, all the way down to the heels and then your feet -- >> is he -- >> is he wearing high healed boots? >> he is. >> penny loafers without socks? >> i'm close to him, and he has a "gq" little stubble going on too. >> bringing style to the show. >> i give up. >> i am -- >> i am really -- sitting next to him in terms of style. >> www.morningjoe, fashion forward, go on the website and order bracelets, the tie, anything you want. >> oh, i was going to be nice to donny, but i won't.

moving on now, the heads of three top u.s. universities were grilled by house republicans over anti-semitism on their campuses. >> i could not believe this yesterday. i thought -- i -- >> why is this so hard? >> i thought that someone had doctored the tapes. >> why is this so hard? the presidents of harvard, m.i.t., and the university of pennsylvania testified before the house committee on education and the workforce yesterday. committee members questioned the university leaders about what steps are being taken to fight anti-semitism on their campuses which has increased significantly following the october 7th hamas terrorist attacks. here is republican congresswoman elise stefanich -- stefanik of new york which would seem to be an easy question for the presidents of harvard and penn.

>> does calling for the genocide of jews violate rules of harassment, yes or no? >> it can be depending on the context. >> what's the context? >> targeted as an individual, targeted at an individual. >> it's targeted at jewish students, jewish individuals? do you understand your testimony is dehumanizing them? do you understand that dehumanization is part of anti-semitism? i will ask you one more time, does calling for the genocide of jews violate harvard's rules of bullying and harassment? yes or no? >> anti-semitic rhetoric when -- >> anti-semitic rhetoric -- >> anti-semitic rhetoric, when it crosses into conduct, that amounts to bullying, harassment, intimidation, that is actionable conduct and we do take action. >> so the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide of jews violates harvard code of

conduct, correct? >> again, it depends on the context. >> it does not depend on the context. the answer is yes, and this is why you should resign. these are unacceptable answers across the board. does calling for the genocide of jews, violate penn's rules or code of conduct, yes or no? >> if the speech turns into conduct it can be harassment, yes. >> i am asking specifically calling for the genocide of jews, does that constitute bullying or harassment? >> if it is directed and severe pervasive, it is harassment. >> the answer is yes? >> it is a context dependent decision, congresswoman. >> it's a context dependent decision, that's your testimony, calling for the genocide of jews is depending upon the context, that is not bullying or harassment? this is the easiest question to answer yes, miss magill.

is your testimony that you will not answer yes? >> if it is -- if the speech becomes -- >> yes or no? >> if the speech becomes. >> committing the act of genocide, the speech is not harassment? this is unacceptable. i'm going to give you one more opportunity for the world to see your answer, does calling for the genocide of jews violate penn's code of conduct when it comes to bullying and harassment? yes or no? >> it can be harassment. >> the answer is yes. >> willie -- >> what's going on? >> we have heard for almost a decade now, that speech is violence. there was actually an editorial page editor who was fired from

the "times" because a u.s. senator put an op-ed in the paper and the argument was, speech is violence. on college campuses, we've heard speech is violence. speech is violence. and yet, these presidents at three of the most prestigious schools in america, are asked, whether calling for the genocide of jews would actually prompt a response from the administration. they couldn't answer the question. let's do what we do here, and let's ask, let's -- let's change the context. what if there were groups marching around the campus calling for the genocide today

of native americans? what if there were students -- >> we get it -- >> i'm going to keep going. marching across the campus, calling for the genocide of hispanics? calling for the genocide of immigrants? calling for the genocide of black americans? calling for the genocide of asian americans? calling for the genocide of baptists? calling for the genocide of catholics? calling for the genocide of any other group? but jews. what would these presidents say? how long would a student still be on campus if that student had a bullhorn calling for the genocide of any of these groups? >> that's a question that answers itself because we all know. there have been cases over the last several years, as you say, speech is violence, where if a kid at a certain school hears an

opinion from a professor or fellow student that he or she disagrees with, it's a federal case on campus and kids are allowed to go to safe spaces with coloring books. so donny, i wonder, honestly, there's so much to say here, such -- as congresswoman stefanik said, that's such an easy question to answer, i wonder if the college presidents fully appreciate the damage they've done to their schools in the last two months or so with this ongoing charade where they equivocate and say yeah, it's bad, but, and they're being forced and how long did they have to prepare their answers for a congressional hearing, come up with something? >> i was sick to my stomach watching those performances. joe, the answer to your question, if any other group were singled out for genocide, whether it's catholics, hispanics, african americans, asians, we know what would happen. they will be justifiable

[ inaudible ]. basically this is not a pink-haired person, a woke person who can't -- grew up on tiktok and can't give an intelligent answer what pure evil is. these are presidents of the universities. >> donny, let's talk about what's happened over the last two days. we have seen members of congress, we have seen international organizations, saying about jewish women being raped, that you got to have context to it. really? you know, it happens in war. yes, but, yes, at the same time, yes. there can never be a condemnation of jewish women being raped savagely, executed,

with genital mutetilation. they can't just say that is abhorrent. yes, but. or yes. so the raping of jewish women requires context when the raping of other women doesn't? the calling for the genocide, the genocide of jews, that requires context? but calling for the genocide for any other group does not? the hatred of jews is -- this has been -- donny, it's been so exposed and it's been so exposed all over america, on the far right, on the far left, but also, at our most elite institutions. >> i'm going to also say what i've said before, where are leaders? where are leaders of corporate america? where are leaders in the entertainment industry? the silence is deafening.

this is hatred towards jews. you're condoning genocide. i promised i wasn't going to get, you know, get worked up this morning. this is so dangerous. you have 70% of kids at m.i.t. afraid to admit they're jews walking around. this is where we are. there is going to be violence because when an institutionist, when a head of a university, can't come out in black and white and say this is abhorrent, you are basically endorsing it. if these presidents have their jobs one more day, it's disgusting. >> so the question was, is it a violation of the code of conduct? if for some reason the code of conduct allows these words to be said, the university president could say, you know, we're going to be changing our code of conduct because this isn't happening on my watch at my university. there was no way that that was a hard question to answer, and they all answered it wrong. >> and you know, mike, you --

you, you know, the damage that has been double to these institutions as willie said, over the past few months, they'll never understand. i guess it's just maybe you live in an ivory tower long enough you just don't understand. when i was at the alabama game this weekend, i spoke to an administrator at alabama. you know, when i went to alabama they had 14, 15,000 students. it's grown. their problem now is, actually they -- they, over the past several years, have been flooded, flooded with applicants from the northeast, from the west coast, from -- and one of the biggest reasons is this. this administrator said to me, said, you just won't believe the number of parents with

incredibly successful students, academic students, that are saying, we want to come to alabama. we want to go to georgia. we want to go to other institutions where you're not going to have this just crazy left wing, far, far left wing world view, where you have presidents of the university saying, speech is violence, speech is violence, speech is violence, for a decade, and then when it comes to the genocide of jews, suddenly it's not. it's madness. and -- i want academic freedom. i want freedom of speech. i don't like what ron desantis is doing in florida. just the opposite. but my god, is there not a middle ground where jews can feel safe walking across college campuses knowing that administrators have their back? >> you know, watching that clip

between elise stefanik and the three presidents of the college, was both depressing, it was -- it was -- you watched it in disbelief. it was painful to watch. because the correct answer to the question, and mika just posed the question again, is it a violation of your school's policy? the correct answer is no, it's a violation of being a human being. that's the answer. and the fact that these three presidents, as you point out, prestigious universities, among the most prestigious in the world, play with language, manipulate language, what has happened to us? what has happened to us that so many people in public life, and private life too, actually, can't understand a question, a simple question, posed and come up with a simple, honest, declarative sentence? what has happened to us, claire? >> yeah.

it's really sad that these women, who are so steeped in academia, didn't feel or see what they were doing to the institutions they deeply care about, and the lack of humanity is astounding. what's interesting, is after the first go-round with the president of harvard, you, you know, congresswoman stefanik went after another one of the presidents with the same question, well, it really gave the rest of the women on the panel an opportunity to listen to how bad the other answer was, and what does she do? she mimics the same answer. >> doubled down. >> i think there will be tremendous pressure on the boards of governors at these universities to make changes in this leadership because this is not hard. genocide against any group of people based on their religion or their skin color or their

ethnicity, is wrong, fundamentally wrong, should be rejected, and action should be taken in every single incident if you're in charge. >> because it's dangerous. so, perhaps, this might be a question posed at tonight's debate. ron desantis, nikki haley, chris christie, and vivek ramaswamy are set to take the stage in if convincing voters that they are the best alternative to donald trump. the former president is, once again, skipping the event and will, instead, host a private fundraiser in florida. aside from chris christie, it's just frustrating to watch these debates because they're not asked about trump, they're not asked -- or they do not talk about the frontrunner. i'm not sure how any of these people plan to make a step forward here. >> there's a great -- actually a great, great subtext to this debate. let's talk to jonathan martin

about this because he's brilliant about everything except for lsu football, and then gets that wrong, every time lsu plays alabama the first weekend in november, but we'll put that to the side. >> yeah. >> so you know, when i was first running in a district you know very well -- >> yes. >> florida, northwest florida, i would knock on doors and after my first day, i went in, a parent said what did you learn? i told them what i learned. i learned after knocking on like four or five doors, and i started to believe in what political professionals don't believe in, i believe in the anecdotal. you pick it up enough, you hear that enough, then it starts showing up in polls and sticking. i'm not sure if this will or not, but i'm hearing so much about nikki haley, if i'm on an airplane, if i'm at a grocery store, if i'm talking to family members or friends on the phone, even people that voted against

trump twice, will say, i like that nikki haley. i like what she did to that vivek guy. >> young people have noticed here. >> young people. women. again, it's not showing up yet in the polls, but just anecdotally, man, she has captured a lot of people's imagination right now in a way that ron desantis still hasn't. >> yeah. well, first of all, i would note it's going to be lsu that wins the heisman next weekend, not alabama. but -- >> enjoy it. enjoy it. >> exactly. >> not bad for a three-loss team to have a heisman trophy winner. there's no question that nikki haley is the one right now who has, i think, the best shot to make a move on donald trump. but it's kind of like the last week of the nfl regular season. she needs like three other teams to help her out, to get a berth, right. it's a really complicated climb here, and it's easy to see how

she could at least get into contention, joe. it's a very different story to be in contention to become the trump alternative, than it is to actually take on trump and sort of overcome trump. in part because, joe, i have been shocked by the lack of urgency from people in the republican party that don't want trump to be the nominee, but apparently aren't willing to do anything about it. i'm talking about lawmakers, governors, senators, former lawmakers, people in the party, who have a voice, who right now are just content to not say anything. you know what's going to happen? trump could emerge as the nominee after south carolina and those same people who don't want trump will simply say, well, our voters wanted him, i support the republican nominee. we've seen the movie before. that's what they'll say. and it's going to be a total mess next year. >> so, jonathan, how does all the 91 felony counts against donald trump play in the strategy of nikki haley and ron

desantis? we had chris christie here last week who said, explicitly on our air, donald trump is going to be convicted, he said, the former u.s. attorney, he's going to be convicted in the federal case around the 2020 election. are they sort of trying to hang around long enough to see if that has an imact -- impact? >> that's a factor with christie. i talked to him last night. he told me he was going to the convention to see this thing out precisely because of what you said. the possibility of trump, especially in the d.c. trial could get convicted by next summer. and that i think is certainly on his mind, and i'll be curious tonight if the moderators press them more about trump and the role that those indictments are playing in the calculation of each of those candidates and to draw them out more, willie. in that first debate, they did a show of hands on if you will support trump if he's convicted. i would be curious to get them beyond a show of hands. this is down to a handful of

people. that should be a conversation tonight beyond just a show of hands. >> politico's jonathan martin, thank you. >> wait. i do want to ask jonathan. >> joe. >> jonathan is a football guy. i'm going to take this around the table. >> all right. start with jonathan. >> i have a lot of friends in florida. a lot of fsu fans, you know, tallahassee is not -- it's two and a half hours from pensacola, so i grew up in the shadow of fsu. jonathan, i love them. i love them. >> yeah. >> but does any fsu fan really think that they should have been -- that they're a better team than alabama? or a better team than georgia? because i must say, if any team should feel ripped off, it should be the team that won 29 games in a row, two national championships, lost by 3 points

to the best team in the land, the university of alabama, and still didn't make the playoffs. >> i don't believe in their heart of hearts they think that they're better than georgia or alabama, but they certainly believed they deserved a shot to at least get in the playoffs because they didn't lose a single game all year and they're in a power five conference. what more can you do beyond that? you can't control your quarterback being hurt. they did everything they could do. you have to feel bad for the seminoles. you have to feel bad for the tallahassee economy, right. the two pillars of tallahassee, the governor and fsu, are falling on hard times, guys. >> let me ask you this, willie, again we're not talking about the most deserving team, right. i mean, they deserve candy caynes, lolly polls, or whatever else -- lollipops, or whatever else. i think, ron desantis, instead of spending a million dollars to

complain about this, he should go to las vegas and find somebody that will take florida even against georgia. if they think they deserve to be in the playoffs, ron, put that $1 million in a casino, go to the sands in vegas, and put it and say here's a million, and i'm going even money against georgia in the orange bowl, jonathan is laughing, because fsu is 14-point underdogs to georgia! now if any fsu fan thinks they've been ripped off the "morning joe" betting syndicate will take your money, even money, florida state against the george bulldogs. >> so i hear very quickly, here's what i think, i think the fsu champion has to be in the playoffs full stop. far and away the best

conference. alabama question, that's over. i think that georgia, yes, would probably beat florida state by maybe three touchdowns in the team they have now without their star quarterback. i also think if i were undefeated florida state and i had the season i had and won the league title in the power five conference, i, too, would be outraged. you know what the solution is? a bigger field which we get not this year, but next year. >> yes. >> there we go. >> claire, i feel -- i do feel really bad for -- seriously, i do feel bad for fsu, the kids, feel bad for the coach. they have an incredible coach and great program. this has happened to every school. it's like so magical, you know, college football is, we always -- i still remember a slight, alabama should have been number one in 1977, and notre dame jumped five spaces over them. i still remember it. that's what makes college football so exciting. right? but that said, claire, what -- who would your top four have

been? >> i think the top four are playing, although i -- i know you don't want to hear this -- i think georgia deserved to go more than alabama. >> wow. >> wow. >> head to head. >> i do. because listen, and mizzou is in the top ten ts year for the first time in forever. >> oh, my god! >> had a great season. >> mizzou. >> this never happens. how often do i get a chance to do this? >> mizzou? >> we'll see. >> go ahead. >> the point is, the sec is the strongest football conference and the people who play in the sec have to play each other, and it is a whole different world when you are facing the opponents you have to face in the sec. florida state is welcome to give it a try one year and we'll see if they're undefeated. i predict that line goes up. i believe the bookies will want to move money off georgia and that line will go to three touchdowns before the game is played. >> wow. >> well, willie, i think it will. it's so funny, everybody is complaining about how alabama didn't deserve to be in there.

they are like i think one point underdogs to michigan. by the way, take alabama, the points, if you want to have a merry christmas, but also, they -- they and michigan are the two favorites to win the whole thing. no, this is -- listen, willie, you hear me complaining about my teams all the time. you hear false modesty spewing out of my mouth all the time. in this case they're the best. >> i think one last note, tcu question really hung over this decision, wisconsin, last year tcu goes in, they have a great season, undefeated, they lose 65-7 to georgia in a does of a national championship game. as great as season as florida state had -- that happening again. >> exactly. >> thank you. >> that's what mika said. mika said, joe, as we look at this, and i was nervous, mika said, we have to think about the tcu question. >> no. actually --

>> because we -- >> the frogs. >> it's the frogs. because they lose to case state last year and i still haven't forgiven the committee for this and jim himes will understand this, tcu loses to k state, the committee says they deserve to be in with alabama and they lose. they lose their lesson. roll tide. >> politico's jonathan martin, thank you for being on. your laugh made this segment look like -- >> jonathan, come on, you're on ed mcmahon. you need to examine back. >> he's so good. >> go tigers, go frogs. >> frogs. >> so let's -- thanks, jonathan. let's bring in ranking member of the house intelligence committee, democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut. does he weigh in on fsu being left out of the playoffs? >> uconn. >> the battle over funding for ukraine. his pick. >> you go ahead, congressman,

the floor is yours. >> mika, first of all, i just can't believe we're going to intrude on this 15-minute conversation of college football with things like the ukraine war and u.s. national security. what are we thinking this morning? >> exactly. exactly. so we'll move on. >> so let's talk about ukraine and the funding for ukraine. i find it hard as a former republican and a reagan republican, a -- >> what's going on? >> a guy that grew up believing you did everything you could to deter russian aggression and invasion of other countries, that you have a republican party giving vladimir putin the keys to keep. >> not just vladimir putin the keys, but who do you think is watching what's happening right now closer than anybody else, president xi of china. we know what he wants on taiwan. he's learning we're getting tired or more to the point as you point out, the republican party gets tired after 18 months of a difficult war. yeah, where is the united

states, world war ii where we stood the course? look, let's make it broader than that. one of the first things this new speaker does is completely unprecedented. he says, we'll give israel aid, $15 billion, and this is, you know, all of a couple weeks after the brutal attack of october 7th, do that aid, but only, only if the congress agrees to rescind president biden's, you know, augmenting of the irs' 19 70s computer systems. never have we put, quote, unquote, conditions much less domestic partisan conditions, on israel aid. now we're at real risk of walking out of ukraine, real risk of, you know, fighting forever over israel aid, which is sorely needed, and the other thing is getting hung up is a direct aid for taiwan. joe, you nailed it. this party of reagan, the party that stood, you know, and said, we will lead the world, is now making up completely ridiculous things like unless you give us

border security -- which by the way we're totally willing to do, we need to do that first before we do ukraine. this is a country that can do a couple things at once. >> hey, congressman, i just -- no one asked me for my take so i'm going to put it in quickly, taylor swift's boyfriend is not on any of these teams so i have no idea what you were talking about -- >> fair point. >> good point. >> i want to ask you about this conversation around assurances or conditions that democrats are getting louder about, bernie sanders said he would be voting against the aiday he doesn't think there's sufficient strings attached to this aid in terms of what israel is doing with u.s. funding. how do you feel on this issue, and do you feel strongly enough that you would ultimately maybe vote against aid? >> yeah. and again, let's go back to what i said, traditionally in the congress the idea of putting conditions of any kind on to aid to israel was unheard of.

you know, the premise was always that, you know, the idf moves with lawyers, they move with the values that we share. now there's a whole conversation about whether that has happened in gaza or not, but again, that barn door has been opened wide by this new speaker, who not just put a condition on israel aid, but that condition was the rewinding of the biden program to augment this 1970's cobalt computer era irs. imagine where we go from here. let's imagine the issue is on the other foot and you have a democratic majority and because of what speaker johnson did, now we're going to prove, you know, israel aid two years from now, but you have to give us single payer health care or do the green new deal. i can't stress how dangerous it is -- look, let's talk about the conduct of the idf's war in gaza. that's a legitimate conversation. but to start saying that unless you give me x, y, z, my partisan political priorities, sorry, israel gets it in the head?

that is unheard of. >> ranking member of the house intelligence committee, democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut, thanks for being with us as always. some breaking news to you, jackie, off the point you made. "time" magazine has announced taylor swift is its person of the year. >> no way! >> what? >> wow. >> go chiefs. >> congratulations to you. >> yes. >> there you have it. >> stop it. >> say something about -- >> willie -- >> says something about where we are. good for her. >> she single-handily lifting up the american economy. >> take the floor, jackie. >> jackie? jackie, you go. >> she's speechless. >> by the way, i'm a massive taylor swift fan. >> me too. >> i don't ask this in a mocking way. defend this selection, go. >> the woman is doing it all. you know, she's being -- look i just read this article at like 3:00 a.m. i don't want to sound like i'm just like, you know, spitting out those talking points, but

she -- she's incredibly talented. she's a brilliant businesswoman. she is thoughtful, benevolent leader. she has done a lot of things that people in her position at least politically would not have thought to do. i don't know. you're wearing taylor swift friendship bracelets. i'm sorry. i did not -- >> that's for another show. i actually think it's a great selection. she is i think in my lifetime other than the beatles, i can't remember an entertainer who was so incline into the culture. with all the dark news out there, it's a good decision. >> yeah. you know, willie, as somebody that has spent way too much time thinking about music and music's relationship to popular culture, you know, i've been thinking about this over the past several months, you got the beatles and the stones and elton john and michael jackson, prince, of

course stevie wonder, you have all of these great talents, but as far as a pop culture impact, it is hard to think of anybody since the beatles that has so consumed american popular culture. i will say in a positive way, i love that taylor swift, you know, she was asked one time what do you think about the current culture and what young women are expected to believe and i know a lot of us have seen this clip, but she said, you know, i grew up being told that as a woman, as being a young girl, that i had to be cool, i had to be hip, i had to be edgy. >> popular. >> and she goes, i'm not cool, i'm not hip, i'm not edgy. and they said what are you? she says, i work hard, i'm imaginative, and i'm pretty smart. that's what i focused on.

in these dehumanizing days for women, especially, for young girls, for women who are struggling with their image, yeah, i think -- i'm good with this selection. it doesn't always have to be politics. i'm good with the selection. >> yeah. i think as someone who has a teenage daughter, i didn't have to do a lot of pointing. teenage girls love taylor swift, women, men too, someone to look up to, yeah, that's about as good as you can do in terms of a public figure. writes her on songs. rerecorded all of her songs. took back ownership of songs an took back ownership of her own music, and, yes, of course, there are geopolitical figures, and people will say this is ridiculous, and then they will be on some other list for "time" magazine. she was person of the year in so many ways. we will talk more about this.

donny deutsch, covering a lot of ground with us, thank you. >> thank you. >> and joining us, the "time's" editor in chief. we'll be right back. right back. sofia vergara: dwight was a 13-year-old kid with cancer, when he came to st. jude. dwight: this kid is now 73 years old. sofia vergara: that's what we do at st. jude. marlo thomas: give thanks for the healthy kids in your life, and give a gift that could last a lifetime. the subway series is taking your favorite to the next level! like the #20. the elite chicken and bacon ranch. built with rotisserie-style chicken and double cheese. i love what i'm seeing here. that's some well-coached chicken. you done, peyton? the subway series just keeps gettin' better. why choose between a longer life

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if you struggle. ♪ and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com day seven of the summit is under way in dubai where they are talking about the urgent need to address the growing threat of climate change.

comments come as a new report warns the earth is on the verge of passing five catastrophic tipping points because of carbon pollution that scientists say could lead tthe loss of ecosystems and impact food growth for future generations, and that's in addition to air pollution is the sixth leading cause of death worldwide. thank you for joining us. tell us what the challenges are trying to get countries onboard with the sticking points that john kerry -- these tipping points that john kerry has laid out? >> reporter: there's plenty of gloom and doom to go around, and we have all seen the sky turn

orange and millions breathe in smoke from wildfires burning from hundreds of miles away, and in the united states, the president has signed the largest climate law in the history of the world. we are deploying clean energy, and we are bringing that message here in the united nations cop. on the first day, we were able to bring together efforts, and there's economic opportunity, a chance for uplift for communities all across the world if we lean into the solutions. >> good morning. there has been a lot of concern about what actually has been accomplished there, and one issue where there has been agreement made is on the

reduction of methane emissions, and tells us what that means for the united states environmentally and economically? >> reporter: this is a massive break through. it didn't happen by accident. the president launched the global methane pledge, bringing countries together to tackle the super polluting emissions source. since then we have brought together 155 nations into the global methane pledge. the reason we are having that success is because of president biden's ambition that leads the field. at the beginning of the cop, there was bold leadership at home paired with relentless

diplomacy that could help achieve more breakthroughs and make the future we want a sustainable one is that possible. >> thank you very much for joining us this morning. willie? let's bring in a pulmonologist and health policy expect. i can't tell you how many people over the last four years said you helped to guide us through the pandemic with your advice and encouragement, sometimes, and thank you for that and for being here. i don't think people associate climate change with health care. what are some of the warnings or signs you are seeing that climate change is impacting the work you do? >> willie, that's exact. the comments on methane is a perfect example of what we need to talk about and how we need to be talking about this topic of climate change. most people, to your point,

don't think climate is abstract. all of us here at the table don't feel it's abstract because we feel it and breathe it, and the more we have learned about climate change, it's allowing us to talk about this topic in real concrete ways that impact everybody across the country. something we really need to lean in on. methane, though, i would argue many people across the country wonder what is methane? it's natural gas. it leaks from all of our stoves, if you have a gas-powered stove in your home, and it could increase your risk of asthma. there's a clear link between gas exposure and asthma. that's why it matters. this is why it matters for the everyday temperatures. >> heat related deaths are up.

what are some of the other indications of the warming planet? >> well, we talk so much about heat and heat stroke, and that's important. 400 increase in heat strokes, and it in the short-term, willie, there are short-term impacts on all of the risk factors, whether it's heat impacting aging, and cognition, and heat stroke. those are critical things to talk about. air pollution, people think if i am exposed to bad air over the course of a decade, that's bad. but what have we seen over the last three months since all of new york city was shrouded in terrible air, and five days of exposure to bad air can lead to five times a risk in stroke.

>> you do this on a daily basis, that's who you are. why do you think -- have we become so spoiled at american people that we take literally the air we breathe for granted? >> mike, yeah, to a certain degree, yes. there's not an acknowledgment. just literally up until 2018, this is like the first time in 1950 the surgeon general put out the dangers of smoking, and we didn't need a study to know that breathing in dirty air is bad, and what we longed believed to be true is now true. that's the key piece here. i think that's why we should be moving more into innovative

solutions. back in the depths of summer when it was 120 degrees in phoenix, something we didn't talk about is if the electrical grid in phoenix failed, 50% of the inhabitants of phoenix would be going to the er, because they are over 65 and have pre-existing conditions. >> you know, i think covid probably made a lot of doctors nervous because it became so political. all of a sudden basic science was called into question. do you feel your fellow pulmonologists around the country, and you are obviously in close contact with them through various associations, are they telling their patients part of the problem is, in fact, climate? now it appears to be a political discussion. i have not yet to meet one person at the grocery store that

pulls me aside and gets in my face about climate? >> it's the individual antidotes and clinics we see that matter, and i appreciate you saying that. there's a courage to enter into that discussion, and for example, the 25-year-old patient that i saw that was otherwise healthy, now pregnant but now is asthmatic, because she lives on the west coast of the united states and is exposed to terrible air from wildfire smoke. that changed her life. now we are worried about the impacts that will have innite row. >> it's so fascinating. not connections most people ever

make. doctor, so great to see you. thank you for being here. >> thank you. the third hour of "morning joe" continues right now. >> tomorrow, "time" magazine will name person of the year. vladimir putin is one of the finalists, and so is barbie, the doll. putin and barbie. they have a lot more in common, they both live in mansions and love horses and dabble in the martial arts, and putin is basically ruthless dictator, barbie. welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, december 6th. we have a lot to get to including donald trump's response of being vindictive.

tommy tuberville, finally. we will have the latest from capitol hill, along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. jackie alemany, and white house editor for politico, sam stein. good to have you all with us this morning. our top story this hour, the israeli military has entered southern gaza's southern city. officials describe the fighting as, quote, the most intense days since the beginning of the ground operation. israel's widening air and ground defenses displaced even more

palestinians. the united nations estimated more than 80% of gaza's population has been driven out of their home since the start of the war, but israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has no plans to stop the assault amid his vow to destroy hamas. yesterday he said israel must retain security control over gaza after the war ends in order to ensure the territory remains demilitarized. he said no international force can be responsible for this. i am not ready to close my eyes and accept any other arrangement. >> meanwhile, president biden is ending hamas for the end of the truce. the world cannot just look away from what's going on. it's on all of us to forcefully

condemn the sexual violence, and biden spoke about the hostages, say, these are civilian woman and let me be crystal clear, hamas's refusal to release the remaining young women is what broke this deal and ended the pause in the fighting. joe, that's at a presidential campaign event where he said, and this is an issue, the sexual violence that has been pushed and it has to have been pushed because so many have ignored it, and this is a talk about what hamas is doing and has done to the israelis. >> jackie alemany, for some reason, international organizations have not wanted to talk about it, and yet the video evidence of unspeakable sexual abuse to -- >> torture.

>> sexual torture to israeli women, verified by nbc news is beyond the pale, and obviously very shocking that more international organizations are not coming out speaking clearly and strongly against it. and unequivocally as well as some people on capitol hill. >> it's extremely confounding, especially to see, as you just noted, these progressive lawmakers over the weekend such should be considering that a war crime and unequivocally condemned. it's hard to imagine how we have gotten to this sort of situation and environment where even saying that raping women as a

tool of war is a controversial thing to say. >> sam stein, the raping of women so much so that their pelvic bones were broken and killed, gentle mutilation in the most unspeakable terms, and we can't even talk about that here on television this morning. it's so unspeakable. then to the horror of the families after these just poor jewish women were just savaged in the unimaginable way and then paraded through the streets by palestinians, and cheering t being dragged through the streets like meat, like

cadavers, and the jewish people seeing celebrations over that, and it's always yes, but -- well, this happens in war. no, really, it doesn't happen. it doesn't happen in all wars. this is, again, this is next-level violence against women. >> you know, when i -- when i initially heard sheryl sandberg speak out about that in a viral video calling for people to condemn the act of rape as a tool of war, and my initial thought was why does she need to say this? everybody is going to condemn it, right? it didn't compute that there was a need to tell people to condemn it, and you look around, and in fact, it has not been

universally condemned and people have been equivocating when asked about it. it's confounding. it should be the easiest thing in the world to say this has no place in society, or should be against the rules of war. you know, it's hard for me to actually explain what is happening here because it's so confounding. i do understand what you are saying, you know, when you talk to people and they want to say it happens on both sides, and this is a modern tool of warfare, and the truth of the matter is you don't need to say that, you can just say this is wrong and it should be condemned and move on with your life and feel good about it. >> it doesn't happen on both sides, actually. >> it's a strategy to go in and terrorize and traumatize, and it was part of their goal to not just decimate and kidnap people,

but to rape women in front of their husbands, fathers and kids, and to have gang rapes happening and to rape them to death. one woman was shot while being raped. this is not one thing that happens along the way. they juiced themselves up with drugs and ran in there with the intent of doing that to women. >> not only that, but it was a plan that they were going to savage these women and mutilate them, rape them to death. >> so it felt a little ignored along the way. >> they were then going to videotape it so the whole world could see it, and videotape these women being paraded around, again, through gaza, while palestinians cheered wildly, and again, treated these savaged women that were raped to death like trophies. >> and animals. >> yeah.

the fact is, again, with all due respect to the congresswoman, this doesn't happen in all wars. maybe that's the moral equivocation that helps her sleep at night. israelis are not doing that to palestinian women. they are trying to kill terrorists that hide behind civilians. >> hospitals, schools. in basements under a hospital. >> if american troops -- and we actually had elise jordan talk about in world war ii, what happened where american troops -- you would be executed if you did something like this, you would be executed. you would be tried and most likely put to death, and as elise was saying in world war

ii. >> when it does, it's atrocities. there was atrocities in ukraine, and it's not like we have not seen this before but what we saw in this attack on october 7th was a systematic thing they were doing to women. we will talk about this more. >> it was systematic and planned and filmed, and it was distributed so the whole world could see this horrible and barbaric behavior towards women, and there are still people that want to -- >> yeah, it's also on go pro. if you want to be a truther and pretend these things didn't happen on october 7th, but we are hearing that equivocat equa israel is bad and generally

wrong here, and everything that happens in the war they have to lump themselves on the other side. as we said many times, you can want a good life for the palestinian people, and respect their humanity and civilians and you can think israel is prosecuting the war wrong, but if you can't say what happened on october 7th is inhumane and grotesque and wrong and bad, there's something wrong with you. we will come back to the war in a minute, but let's turn to ukraine, because the aid that the united states has been providing for the last two years now is in question. republicans are saying foreign aid is part of the national security bill, and the bill must also have money for the southern border. there was a security package that included foreign aid and measures targeting the border, and schumer wanted to do it

separately, and yesterday schumer warned his republican colleagues what is expected of them and what the republican party of old would think about it. >> if republicans want to bring up immigration right now, right in the middle of trying to pass aid to ukraine and other issues, the onus is on them to present serious bipartisan proposals that can get broad support from democrats. ronald reagan would be rolling in his grave, rolling in his grave, if he saw his own party let vladimir putin roll through europe. once again, i urge my republican colleagues to think carefully about what is at stake with this week's vote. what we do now will reverberate across the world for years and decades to come. >> jackie, take us inside the

dynamics of the senate. the house is one thing, obviously, but the senate in the bipartisan briefing where the department of defense and department of state trial to talk to the republicans about getting the funding passed, but they want to attach to it border protection, and schumer said we will do that but let's do it separately. how will this play out? >> it's the fundamental issue that democrats do not want to appropriate the bill for border funding, and republicans don't trust democrats on what schumer said there, because they don't think it will be pushed through. this is life with slim majorities, in the senate and the house, where the two to three-vote majorities makes it

all but impossible to get things through with the contentious and polarized issues, and with the republican party, the tides turned towards more the isolationists posture, and more and more the administration and democratic lawmakers on the hill try to make the case that we should be dedicating more money towards ukraine, israel, et cetera, you know, in foreign funding for climate projects and really, you know, spending across the board, the more republicans are doubling down on their desire to withhold that money and then sort of redirect the attention to the lack of funding that the biden administration is throwing their weight behind when it comes to the border, where if you talk to any progressive hispanic congressional caucus groups, they simply don't believe that

money will make any sort of difference on the border, that there's an inherent policy problem when it comes to immigration, and throwing money at the border patrol will make a difference, and it's throwing red meat at an issue to rile up the base during election year. >> that may be what progressive lobbying groups think on capitol hill, and that's not what independent voters or swing voters in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, georgia, arizona and nevada think. it's not even close to what they think. immigration is a massive issue and will be a massive issue in 2024 for these groups. maybe not the general electorate

at large, but for these groups it will be a significant issue. you go through polling and you look at polls with independent voters in new hampshire, and independent voters in all of these places. the border is, because there's chaos there. we have said, barack obama and joe biden's administration, when they left had the lowest number of illegal border crossings from new mexico in 50 years, and things have gotten worse through the last two administrations. i guess -- i don't understand. tell me what the thinking is of democrats. i don't understand why democrats don't trade ukraine funding for strong border security? we have said it here before, if i were the democrats, i would say, okay, republicans, i see

your border security bill and i raise you some. they have to go into the election showing independent swing voters, disaffected republicans, and let me say the states again, in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, georgia, arizona, nevada, let me add new hampshire to that. voters that want to see this white house and this democratic party doing something significant on border security. >> those in the white house will say privately they recognize that border security and immigration at large is a political weakness for this president head into his election year. there's a willingness to deal but it's a question of how much and what they want to be seen as doing. the republicans -- some republican senators want to make this happen, but they seem to be at an impasse right now. and jackie, people i talked to the hill in the last day or so they feel the votes are not there and they are not sure how

this package will get done and we are going to barrel in the winter recess with none of it, and i am curious as to, a, your own account of it, but talk about the role of mitch mcconnell is playing in this, who was a real champion among republicans for ukraine aid, but is somewhat diminished to get a deal done? >> mcconnell saw the writing on the ball and advised his members to vote against the package to take a stand and show they are not budging on border security. we need to reckon with the fact that ukraine fund something probably not going to get done. even israel funding, which every single person in the u.s. congress is mostly behind. there's some discrepancies on

how many conditions or assurances, and bernie sanders came out with the letter yesterday that called for the u.s. -- for biden to at least enforce current existing u.s. laws when it comes to giving, appropriating that aid to israel and the way they are spending that, making sure they are not bombing civilians with u.s. bombs as they continue their attack on gaza. but i doubt -- you heard gop members say this last week, that any of this is going to get done if anything does get done before christmas. you and max, a member of the house, he said he was infuriated by that, and even in the case where something came to the house floor in the little time left before the christmas recess, speaker johnson said

there needs to be offsets when it comes to that funding. mcconnell and johnson are at odds with each other and it's reflective of the entire system and the way things are working in congress right now. >> what an absolute shock that the new speaker is once again a raging hypocrite, once again, on just about everything. i can't believe -- read the bible, hypocrisy and lying, and did he talk about the offsets with trump -- >> hear him talking about january 6th. >> yeah, i know. he lies through your teeth. i have not read you can lie if you want to gain power. liz cheney was talking about her conversations with mike johnson, you know this is wrong. yeah, i know it's wrong and there's no basis for what i am doing, and basically i know i am lying but i want to get to

donald trump. the pursuit of power -- he's just like a tell aevangelist. it's jim and tammy faye baker, and he's lying through his teeth. we have to have offsets, and despite donald trump and i raised the deficit and national debt more in four years than any other president did for the first 220 years in american history, now he wants offsets. it's so hypocritical. sam stein, i have a question. this is why i think this makes -- this deal makes so much sense. i asked about the biden administration, why don't they do the deal on border security, be strong and tough? i am wondering, do the republicans really want to go

into 2024 being the party to allow putin to complete the invasion into a sovereign country. do republicans really want to be that party? do they want to be the party that won't find israel against hamas? that's how it's lining up. >> it really comes down to what each party thinks is the potency of each issue, right? democrats recognize that they have a vulnerability when it comes to migration and border reform policies. our reporting indicates the biden administration in particular is pressing hill democrats to get a deal. they both recognize that it's a logistical nightmare at the border, and they are hearing from tons of democrats in municipalities as well as governors that say we are getting inundated with migrants

being shipped up to us or making their way to us and republicans will use this as an issue. on the flip side, are there some republicans saying to themselves do we want to go into 2024 being the ones that voted down a package for israel aid? that could be a vulnerability politically, and all suggests there could be an opening for some sort of deal or a paired down deal. it's all about the details, right? if you go into the details of the immigration policy reforms, each side agrees there should be reforms to the asylum system, and there are details where this thing will live or die. right now it's not on a path to salvation, honestly. coming up, corruption unbound. our next guest said donald trump and his cronies left the white house with a playbook for self enrichment in a second term.

and frank ford joins us with his new piece in "the atlantic." join us straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano.

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would you be running for president if trump was not running? >> i suspect so but, look, he's running and i have to run. >> would you drop out if -- >> no, not now. >> president bid yesterday when asked to clarify comments he made at a fund driving -- >> you are just saying things,

like, you make up stuff, you just say things you don't mean, because they're ridiculous! that's a problem. we have a culture where you have tv shows talking about politics for four hours. that's awful. >> yeah, that's a disaster. >> you have to be certifiable to do that. not well. >> crazy. >> willie, just a comment, and it's the biggest story of all-time. not really. >> including sfu, apparently. we will get to that in just a little while. the comment, jonathan lemire, set off alarm bells.

what he was talking about through the entire event was what a donald trump was and is and would be if he were elected again, and i have to stay in the door of democracy, and clarified that. >> people close to him have indicated that he is running again because he views donald trump as a fundamental threat to our nation's democracy, and that's why he has to be defeated. there are questions, of course. we know when biden ran the first time, he considered that he was a transitional candidate, and he never pledged to be a one-term president, and many democrats are nervous about the president's poll numbers, and it's really, joe, the reason why he said it and the reason why it's either right now, and a

number of trump's former officials on this network yesterday warned our democracy would be in danger were trump to win, and that's what biden was trying to get at. >> and his people are saying, we're coming for you. we are going to go after and prosecute -- yeah, we are going after everybody. they are saying it. jonathan, there's a debate, and there has been a debate for sometime how hard joe biden should go against donald trump. which is ridiculous, i think, because donald trump goes after joe biden every day and the reason joe biden is running is because of the danger donald trump poses to america. you have the governors, and i saw "the new york times" editor, he shouldn't talk about donald trump but wind turbines, and -- >> there's a lot to talk about.

abortion. >> cut your ribbons and go visit your water management districts, governors, and you do your thing and let the president he needs to do to run. but there's a pressure for some reason for him to not talk about a man is that promising to terminate the constitution, and execute disloyal generals, and take news networks off the air, and continue to take rights away from women. take health care away from working class americans. >> put personal valets in the administration instead of experts. >> to prosecute, to go after and execute people, and to do it his first day in office. he's promising to do this. again, why is that debate going on whether he should go after donald trump or not? >> steve bannon, two trump

advisers reiterated yesterday their first targets would be the networks against them, and in the biden world, you and i talked about this, joe, about over the summer there was a focus on the pro biden, an economics, and they have highlighted something trump said. look, this is what he did before in his first term, and this is what he promised again in the second term and we won't be the same country on the other side were he to be president again. coming up, we will go live to the site of the republican presidential debate in alabama. a preview of the final showdown before the iowa caucuses. that conversation just ahead on

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♪ ♪ last night in a fox news town hall, sean hannity asked donald trump twice, coaching him along as he often does in the interviews, if trump planned to abuse his power if elected to a second term, and trump told the audience he would not be a duck -- dictator except on his first day. >> do you have any plans if re-elected as president, to abuse power to break the law or use the government to go after people? >> you mean like they are doing right now. in the history of our country, what has happened to us, again, has never happened before over nonsense, over nothing. made-up judges.

i say al capone, what a was one of the greatest of all-time, if you like criminals, and he got indicted once, and i got indicted four times. >> i want to go back to the issue because the media has been focussed on this and attacking you under no circumstances, you are promising america tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody? >> except for day one. >> meaning? >> i want to close the border and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> that's not retribution. >> i'm going -- i love this guy. he says you are not going to be a dictator, are you? i said, no, no, no, other than day one. >> believe him. >> we talked about this. we talked about this. remember, in a previous interview he said, you didn't

take the documents back to mar-a-lago, and he said, i did. this is what we are hearing from donald trump more and more. it's the reason we are hearing more and more from joe biden about the potentials of a dangerous second term. >> willie, think about it, if any other politician in american history were asked the question, are you going to be a dictator? no. donald trump never answered it. he never answered it. there's a sickness -- there's a sickness among, unfortunately, some of our fellow americans regarding authoritarianism, and totalitarianism, because they want it. when he said it would be on day

one, he got applause. >> there were a lot of people watching. >> even before he talked about the border, which a majority of americans would support closing the border today, probably an overwhelming majority, and our drilling -- by the way, what a stupid thing to say. drill, drill, drill. you can tell he doesn't even need the newspapers and the people applauding that don't read the newspapers. u.s. oil production, record highs. we are drilling more and producing more oil, whether you like it or not, we are drilling more oil now than the saudis getting more oil out of the ground than the saudis, and getting more oil out of the ground than russia. what are you going to drill? your teeth. we are already doing that. that just shows how stupid he is.

and people that applaud drill, drill, drill, how stupid they are because that's what we are doing now. biden's administration, i know a lot of people on the left are not going to like this, but -- their presidency has seen more oil production than any other oil production in u.s. history. >> they are also victims of a cult-like personality. by the way, it's not good for america. >> it's bad for america, and a large chunk of the audience cheering when donald trump said i would be a dictator on day one, well, they want that. >> look at the polling. this race will be close down to the end because of the applause that you heard in that room last night. let's talk more about this with the staff writer at the

"atlantic," and his piece is titled "corruption unbound." we were talking about some of the policy stuff and a potential withdrawal from nato and the implications with that, and which corruption are you writing about this morning specifically? >> if you go back and look at the first trump term. you had cabinet secretaries traveling on private jets, and paid for by people who they were administering, and people wanted to change policy, paying the trump hotels and resorts sums of money with the hopes that, too, would change policy. in the first trump term, trump tried to use the regulatory state to punish enemies, and that was a dry run, and everybody figured out how the

system runs, and the second trump term would be tempered by all the experience that was gleaned. there's know-how now. and there's a term to describe what emerged, which is that a mafia state emerged. if the trump officials came in and clear out the deep state and install the cronies in power, they have no allegiance to higher values, they will all be susceptible to corruption. the way the system works is you have this corruption that emerges at the center and is protected by all of the foot soldiers that are also profiting along the way. >> frank, i want to start with highlighting another line from president biden add one of the fundraisers about trump, and he

said he didn't show up at my first inauguration, and probably won't show up at my last inauguration either, and so on the idea of political corruption, were trump to get that second term, talk to us about how he could enrich himself even further, family members and staffers andst and expense of civil servants and career professionals and the american taxpayer. >> we saw how his family enriched billions of dollars by foreign governments. you saw the way in the first trump term foreign governments that wanted to manipulate trump were able to spend money on his properties. the government of qatar bought a building, bought a unit in a trump building for $6 million. trump never disentangled himself from his vast network of business interests, so those -- that vast network of business

interests becomes this ripe target that governments around the world, that interests in the united states, all know that they can spend money on and invest in with the hopes of changing policy here. that is the very definition of corruption. >> coming up, a look at "time's" person of the year. >> i think mike barnicle is going to get it. >> this short list, wow. it's diverse. >> they have barbie. >> yeah. >> putin. >> yeah. >> mike barnicle. >> nope. >> joe biden. i think biden is going to -- come in second. behind mike barnicle. we'll run through the short list and who walked away with the honor. i think it's mike barnicle. >> straight ahead on "morning joe." ead on "morning joe. ♪ tensions... were high. ♪ luckily, replacement costumes were shipped with fedex. which means mr. harvey... could picture the perfect night.

♪ we're delivering more happy for the holidays. ♪

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. welcome back. a live look at new york city.

it is 5 minutes before the top of the hour. women may be the key to solving the global leadership crisis. that was one of the biggest takeaways from the forbes annual list of the world's 100 most powerful women, which was released yesterday. the list highlights the most inspirational female ceos, entertainers, politicians, philanthropists, policymakers, and in the case of this list, even a fictional character. here to discuss the editor maggie mcgrath. maggie, great to have you on for this. the list revealed a complex picture of female power. take us through some of the highlights. >> well, mika, this is the 20th annual edition of the "forbes" list of the world's 100 most powerful women, and it is the definitive look at female power, the state of female power, in 2023. number one for the second year in a row is european commission president you are saleh van der

lin. her policies affect the lives of 450 million people in europe and could be as many as 500 million people in europe, according to her september state of the union, she is able to admit countries like ukraine and moldova into the eu. number two is the head of the european central bank, christine lagarde, also for the second year in a row. another crucial policy maker in the moment of high inflation and tough economic times, especially for consumers. and number three is vice president -- u.s. vice president kamala harris. she is the most, you know, powerful woman in american politics. you know, elsewhere on the list we see women flexing their power in our industries. taylor swift jumped the ranks from 79 to number 5 this year on the power of her tour, on the economic effect of this tour, the u.s. travel association estimates that she added more than $5 billion to state economies, and, you know, we also have women breaking glass

ceilings like the first female ceo of banco de brazil. she's number 24. >> you interviewed philanthropist melinda gates who came in tenth on the list about the state of female leadership. what did she have to say? >> she had a lot to say. for as many women on this list, we are still not there yet in so many parts of the world when it comes to women in leadership. just look at the g-20. you have ursula van der lin and we talk about why isn't there more women in power and she points to the caregiving crisis globally. we have a crisis here in the state. the federal funding, pandemic era funding expired in september, but dploeblly she talks to -- globally she talks to women around the world who need better access to affordable child care and we know when they have that support for their careers, they're able to then power their careers and step into leadership.

>> okay. and i'm noting there are some very interesting, notable women over the age of 50 who made the new power list. i want to hear about them. also why don't we just remind everyone that the -- the deadline for our global 50 over 50 list is fast approaching. maggie, go. >> so ursula is 65. took the helm of the european commission. makiko ono is 63 years old, became the ceo of sundri food and beverage. less than 1% of the tokyo stocks exchange is a women. and we also have nurmala, the finance minister of india, she is 64 now and became the first fully time finance minister of india, a female, four years ago. all of these people are wonderful candidates for the 50 over 50, and we have nominations open until december 10th.

so the deadline is fast approaching. if you or someone you admire is stepping into your power, over the age of 50 and creating your greatest impact, head to forbes.com today to tell us all about yourself or that person that you admire. >> all right. maggie mcgrath, as always, thank you for being on this morning. we will see you soon for sure. we are just now approaching the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's just about 6:00 a.m. on the west coast and 9:00 a.m. in the east. we begin with a critical feud playing out on capitol hill for critical aid needed for ukraine. ukrainian president zelenskyy's chief of staff said yesterday there is a big risk ukraine could lose its war with russia if the military aid is postponed but senate republicans, they are expected to vote against a funding bill for both ukraine and israel unless stricter border security measures are added. the tensions were on display

yesterday at a classified briefing led by the secretaries of state and defense, which reportedly became heated when republicans turned the discussion fully to the border issue and eventually just got up and walked out of the meeting, calling it a waste of time. let's bring in now someone who was in that meeting, democratic senator mark warner of virginia. he's chairman of the senate intelligence committee. mark, what happened? >> well, as chairman of the intelligence committee, you know, mika, i actually keep classified briefings classified. i will say this, it probably was not the senate's finest hour, but here's where we stand. we have a historic choice to make. history will look back and say did the united states honor its commitment to ukraine, or did they give a green light to putin who has been saying for a long time, he can out wait the west and the united states. if we walk away we also undermine nato. if we walk away well, basically

say to president xi, you know, america won't stand by its friends, so xi, if you and china want to expand towards nato, or expand towards taiwan, elsewhere, have at it. i can't think of a more historic moment for us, and our republican friends said, you know, while we want to tie in border -- something that, frankly we've probably screwed up for the last 20 years, both parties, but if they set that prerequisite, count me in as somebody who knows we need to take it on. the president put down $14 billion for border, and in the negotiations so far, democrats have offered major changes on asylum, some changes on parole, to the extent that 12 democratic senators said they probably couldn't go as far as some of us were willing to go. to me, that sounds like a perfect recipe for a compromise. let's get it done. but there are an extraordinary group of some republicans, because half of the republican

conference has said you could give them the moon and they wouldn't vote for ukraine, but they're saying they want to take the most extreme version possible and it's kind of have that or walk away from ukraine. >> so can you make clear what it is they were demanding? because i guess a lot of people watching might say, well, this funding for israel and ukraine is so necessary, why not -- just do that? just do a give and let's get it going? >> mika, that would be the rationale approach, but we are where we are. they've added the border component. what they've said on border is there's a bill called hr-2, basically would completely shut down the border, something even donald trump didn't do. there was not a single democrat in the house or senate, whoever voted for that, they voted against it. the idea of laying this on when half their conference won't vote for ukraine anyway, is candidly a bridge too far. you want to do a negotiated settlement, the president put up

$14 billion, we've offered policy changes, take yes for an answer, do not have us walk away from ukraine at this critical moment. >> senator warner, good morning. i want to ask you about your colleague, senator tuberville, and his decision yesterday to finally release his hold and to get more than 400, you all move very quickly, to confirm the promotions of the military leaders, generals and the like. some still four-stars out there. what is your sense of the damage that the last ten months of this hold have done, and why do you think senator tuberville ended it yesterday? >> well, listen, this was one of the worst examples of senatorial abuse of power, at least since i've been in this job. how do you say not only to the 400 officers, but their families who are left in limbo, many of them, you know, you moved to your new base, your kids would have to start school, that was all screwed up, and for what? so this guy could go out and fund raise on a daily basis?

this was an abuse of power. you know, in the senate, as you know, you got a lot of power as an individual, but you have to use that power judiciously. this was such an abuse that vast majority of the republicans also said, you got to cut it out. i think it may call for us to reexamine some of these powers, probably not now, but, you know, before the '24 election when it's still jump ball about who is going to control the next senate. i think a group of more rationale members in both we prevent this from going forward. the truth is, at least for the balance of this coming year, if some other senator wants to put a hold on a group of people -- and there are other republican senators, for example, put blanket holds on all state department personnel, what that does is it just undermines people who serve, whether it's in the military or in other parts of our government. >> i completely agree, it is so abusive of the entire process. chairman of the senate

intelligence committee, democratic senator mark warner of virginia, thank you so much. mika, we just talked about two issues that involve american national security and how republicans in both houses are making america weaker. tommy tuberville for so long -- >> he got nothing out of it. >> undermining american readiness. i tell you what, "the wall street journal" editorial page talked about it, why did he do it? he did it to appeal to far right groups in an issue that as "the wall street journal" said he was never going to win. he did it for fundraising basically. he did it to make money for his campaign. he undermined america's readiness to raise money from far right groups. >> as claire mccaskill said, everything is upside down. republicans are supposed to be

about global security, national security, and here they are holding money back from ukraine and israel -- >> but that's the second thing i was going to say. you're exactly right. so we had tommy tuberville and republicans allowing him to do this for a long time, undermining american readiness. i'm thankful for those republicans who stood up and spoke out for men and women in uniforms and their families, because that's the heart of readiness. the second thing like you said, the fact that they'reot going to support israel, without political conditions -- it's all politics. they're willing to undermine israel's security for politics, while yelling at progressives for being insufficiently loyal, yet they're the ones undermining support for israel, saying we need to pay for it. no. you do that for four years during donald trump's presidency when he raised the deficit, and he raised the federal debt to

record levels. the current speaker never did that. he never got in the way of donald trump funding israel. but suddenly, defending israel, i guess it's just not as important as it is raising money or playing to the far right because he didn't do it then, he's doing it now, because joe biden is president. so what? does he hate israel now that joe biden is president? >> exactly. >> is it not worth defending israel because joe biden is president? same with ukraine. when barack obama wasn't sending the defensive weapons needed, in 2014, republicans were rightly upset about that. now, the shoe is on the other foot and it's republicans that are opening the door, giving the keys to vladimir putin. while allowing that to happen, republicans are sending the messaging, you don't have to

take it from me, even though i'm right here, you can talk to the chairman of the house foreign affairs committee. >> yeah. >> congressman mccall, chairman mccaul, who will tell you, the message that republicans are sending right now to vladimir putin, is being picked up loud and clear to chairman xi. >> and -- >> chairman xi, whatever you want to call him, it's being picked up. they say wait a second, now if republicans are too weak-kneed to defend israel, one of america's closest allies, and they're too weak-kneed to defend ukraine from russian aggression, well, then let's just walk into taiwan. let's just start the invasion tomorrow. that's the message. you know it republicans, that's the message that you are sending to tyrants across the globe. you're sending it to iran, the mullahs in iran. you're sending it everywhere.

it's really, it's disgraceful. i don't know why you're doing this. i don't know why you're letting the extremists in your party do this. you are not only making america less safe, you're making the world less safe. and if, you know -- what do we learn when we get out of iraq? we thought we could escape history. we're just going to get out iraq. what happened? isis followed. and then our troops had to go back. so whatever point you're trying to prove right now, you're failing miserably at it and making america and americans less safe. >> during a campaign event yesterday in boston, president biden spoke about the horrors female israelis endured at the hands of ham terrorists on october 7th. he said, quote, the world can't just look away from what's going . it's on all of us to forcefully

condemn the sexual violence. biden also blamed hamas for the end of the seven-day truce, sang, quote, these are civian women, mostly between the ages o 20 and 39, let m be crystal clear, hamas' refusal to lease the remaining young women, is what broke this deal and ended the pause in fighting. nbc news has reviewed the evidence of hamas' use of sexual assault as a weapon of war. joining us with more on that is nbc news correspondent hall la gor raneny, live in -- hala gorani, live in tel aviv. what do we know? investigators showed us video, showed us aftermath, pictures as well, some of which we were able to see for the first time. they're trying to piece together exactly what happened on october 7th when it comes to these alleged acts of sexual assault and rape of women, but in some

cases, men on that horrific day. here are the latest disturbing details in that investigation. on october 7th, hamas attacked within israel's borders with a wave of terror, murdering over 1200 people, including entire families. and israeli investigators say there is growing evidence that hamas unleashed another kind of horror against women. >> something so horrific happened and the world should know. >> reporter: we spoke to miian leading the investigation of allegations of repeated rape and sexual assault by hamas. >> where does your investigation stand? >> we have eyewitnesses that are slowly arriving and giving testimonies. >> reporter: disturbing accounts about october 7th, including this woman describing how a hamas terrorist, quote, laid a

woman down, he is raping her, and then they pass her on to another person, telling investigators, the woman was alive and bleeding. another chilling eyewitness account from yoni saado telling "the sunday times" he was at the music festival where hamas slaughtered hundreds of israeli concertgoers, he hid under dead bodies saying he saw a, quote, beautiful woman with the face of an angel, and eight or ten of the fighters beating and raping her. when they finished, they were laughing, and the last one shot her in the head, he said. hamas has denied committing sexual crimes against women. israeli officials say the investigation is challenging because most victims were killed, but among the evidence seen by nbc news, graphic photos of women's bodies with obvious signs of sexual assault, including some naked from the waist down. >> some of the terrorists that

are interrogated they're saying that this was happening and this was done. >> reporter: first responders describing naked female bodies tied to beds. nbc news also reviewing this hamas document that israeli officials say was carried by hamas militants on october 7th, with instructions on how to say "take off your pants" in hebrew. the u.n. facing backlash for its response some deemed too slow, including this protest monday president critics blasting the secretary general for taking seven weeks to publicly call for an investigation of hamas and sexual violence. and the agency u.n. women for not putting out a statement until last friday. the agency telling us in part, within days of the horrific attacks, u.n. women began offering concrete support to the u.n. commission of inquiry which is investigating these matters. >> i feel like the world has

turned their backs. >> reporter: she runs a rape crisis center in tel aviv and says israel's critics are downplaying, even dismissing alleged hamas sexual violence. >> you say people can be opposed to what's happening to palestinian -- >> absolutely. >> at the same time they need to be -- >> absolutely. yeah. those are two things that don't have to do with each other. i feel for the suffering of palestinian civilians. it has nothing to do with the fact there can never be an excuse for rape. >> reporter: you heard there from the head of the rape crisis center, the sympathy for palestinians. she says should not overshadow any sympathy or empathy you feel for the women who she says were victims of those sexual crimes. what makes this investigation so challenging is the fact that so many of the victims lost their lives and so investigators are having to piece together what happened based on using forensic evidence and the testimony of people who were hiding in some cases under piles of dead bodies while all these crimes were

being committed. back to you. >> nbc's halah gorani, thank you for your reporting. >> willie, if you're a jewish woman in israel, and you see that the united nations values jewish women's lives, their safety, their dignity, far less than anywhere else on the globe, and same thing with international women's groups who have been so slow to respond, the same thing with members of congress who have said yes, but, it happens in war, the sort of things you would never hear anywhere else, you don't feel safe. when you look at the fact that your own leadership waited seven hours on the day that so many women were being raped, sexually

assaulted, abused. >> still don't understand. >> kidnapped, passed around, palestinian crowds, cheering palestinian crowds for these women that were bleeding out because they had been raped so much, if you're a jewish woman in israel and if you're -- like we said earlier, a jewish student in america and you have university presidents that won't decide calling of genocide against jews is not somehow a violation of their code of behavior, you just -- you have to say, there's no place on the globe where a jewish woman can be safe. >> yeah. that was gut wrenching to watch and listen to and also important. there's this almost brand of trutherism around october 7th that's cropping up. >> yep. >> well, i don't know if it happened that way or israelis

may be making this up to justify their attacks inside of gaza. we've got testimony, we believe the women, i think, right, isn't that something we've talked about a lot in the last few years, we have gopro footage and documentation. it's so hard to watch, and to me it's the starkest example of this kind of syndrome we've seen since october 7th where people say, like you said, joe, yes, but. that was bad, but what about this? no. just stop and condemn what we just heard. if you can't do that, my god, you have to really take a long look in the mirror. it's about as horrible as it could get. it was jarring i'm sure to viewers as it was to us. again, i think important in this moment to hear. we're going to come back to the war in just a moment. we just got across our desk some sad news that norman lear, the television producer who introduced political and social commentary into the american sitcom, died yesterday at his home in los angeles at the age of 101. his death now has been confirmed

by a spokeswoman for the family. nbc news correspondent joe fryer looks back at the incredible life and legacy of norman lear. ♪ those were the days ♪ >> reporter: because of norman lear, the small screen grew. >> we are the jeffersons. >> reporter: its boundaries swelled to share news stories. >> this is a big one. >> reporter: project new voices. >> i have never been in a situation in my life, however tragic, where i didn't see some comedy. >> reporter: born in 1922, here served during world war ii before settling down in los angeles where he wrote for comedy shows "the colegate comedy hour" staring dean lewis and jerry martin. he turned to producing movies, earning an oscar nomination for "divorce american style". >> $250 a month, and i'm a house boy. >> reporter: until the '70s lear began to build the foundation starting with "all in the family". >> you are a meat head.

>> reporter: the groundbreaking show used humor to tackle serious topics like race and sexuality. so controversial, it started with a disclaimer. >> one, two, three. >> reporter: when it came to social issues, lear was fearless. >> just tell me, walter, that i'm doing the right thing, not having the baby. >> reporter: his series "maude" addressed abortion months before the supreme court's decision in roe versus wade, and the show generated a spinoff. ♪ good times ♪ >> reporter: among the first prime time shows depecting life of african americans. it focused on a family in a housing project, drew criticism from viewers and cast members that felt it perpetuated stereotypes. lear created "the jeffersons" which centered on a successful black couple. >> how can you afford to live in a place like this.

you ain't tall enough to be a basketball player. >> reporter: he walked away from tv to focus on political activism, vocal opponent of the religious right, lear created a nonprofit called people for the american way. >> don't tell us we're bad or good christians depending on political points view of. that isn't the american way. >> reporter: married three times, lear had six kids, the youngest twins born in his 70s. age never slowed him down. at 94 lear launched a podcast called all of the above, and rebooted one of his classic series "one day at a time" this time with a cuban american family. >> norman lear has held up a mirror to american society and changed the way we look at it. >> reporter: a man who entertained viewers and challenged them, changing television for the better. >> wow. >> tell you what, first of all, i got a chance to spend some time with him. he was a wonderful man.

sweet. >> really. >> loved spending time with him. that's the first thing. the second thing is, mike, in this upside down world that claire mccaskill talked about, norman lear, the bane of conservatives' existence for 50 years, was 50 years ahead of his time, with "all in the family." a program that if you watch now, is shockingly, shockingly politically incorrect, and yet, he fearlessly did it 50 years ago. it is -- and the depiction of archie bunker, about as relevant as it's ever been. >> you know, joe, if you place all of those shows, all of norman lear's shows back in the era that they were first displayed in american television, basically the '70s, the 1970s, you can say with

credibility that norman lear brought america to americans for the first time. i mean, television set was your constant companion back in the '70s. it is now. not to the extent it was then. it was home entertainment and all of a sudden you had "all in the family." you had "the jeffersons." you had "sanford and sons." you had programs that gave you a picture, a comedic picture, but a serious one as well, into the lives of people that you would never meet, never knew really, never talked about, and all of a sudden, they were right there in your living room. he did an enormous service to the united states of america by bringing america the real america, to americans in their own homes. >> joe, one of the ways norman lear always described his work is watching television, watching american television, '50s and '60s and seeing the perfect suburban families, sort of

"leave it to beaver" version of americans saying that's not what's going on out here. we have to reflect the country and that's where you got is shows like "all in the family" and "sanford and son" tackling issues television would never touch before norman lear. race, sex, class, abortion, as we saw there, the vietnam war, on "all in the family." i want to add in, norman lear served in world war ii in the united states army, more than 50 combat missions in the mediterranean. this is a guy who gave us so much, gave so much to this country, and we're sad to see him gone. >> well, he did. incredible. i also -- norman lear in that clip, i don't know, 25, 30 years ago, saying, don't tell us what kind of christian we are, whether i'm a good christian or a bad christian, based on my political views. that is now a debate raging inside the church itself.

we saw tim alberta on earlier this week and seen the battle raging inside the baptist church, the catholic church, you name it, but norman lear was talking about this 25, 30 years ago, tackling racism, bigotry, tackling so many different issues -- >> political divisions. >> political divisions. and again, on "maude" talking about abortion. >> yeah. >> before roe v. wade. >> such enormous contributions to culture, society, and politics. norman lear dead at the age of 101. what a life. coming up on "morning joe," yesterday, it was college presidents getting grilled on capitol hill. today it will be wall street executives in the hot seat. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin previews today's oversight hearing with the heads of the nation's biggest banks. "morning joe" is back in a moment. joe" is back in a moment customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache.

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♪♪ welcome back. it's half past the hour. job openings fell in october to their lowest in 2 1/2 years. employment openings totalled 8.7 million, far below estimates of 9.4 million, and the lowest since march of 2021. >> let's bring in co-anchor of cnbc's "squawk box" andrew ross sorkin. what's it mean? >> this becomes a complicated read in some ways because on one end you say to yourself this is bad news, you think you would want to have more job openings and in some cases you say this is good news becse inflation is likely to be coming down. it's raising new questions about what 2024 economically in the united states is ultimately going to look like, and it also raises questions about what the federal reserve may or may not need to do as a result of all of this. again, they're going to look at this and say this is good news to some extent. by the way, if these numbers

continue to come down in a way it becomes bad news, and so it's -- as i said, it's a mixed picture. the stock market is liking this news because they're thinking inflation is coming down and they're thinking that federal reserve instead of hiking interest rates where they are, they're going to lower interest rates in 2024. all of this happening in a presidential election year which is going to factor into the debate and conversation that i imagine we all have. >> yeah. i'm going to pass it along to jonathan lemire in a minute to follow up on that side. i have to ask you, you were not able to be on yesterday. we had the breaking news about spotify. >> right. >> really bad news there. what's going on? >> well, look, i think what you're seeing is that the music business and the growth, it's really a growth story of so many of these types of companies in this subscription business, you're seeing this, obviously, with the disney pluses and hulu

and netflix, that all of those businesses are harder to make money at than i think people had anticipated, and in terms of the way the stocks have moved and the way a lot of them have hired during the pandemic, that they had invariably overhired, spent money, probably too much money, on podcasts and other original kind of content, so i think you're seeing the big shrink and we're seeing this across the media landscape and music and audio is not immune from it. >> yeah. no question there. let's talk about what we're going to hear before congress today, a number of top wall street ceos will testify. what should we expect? >> well, look, here's the debate. you're going to see all the big ceos and they're all going to come and say, please, don't make us keep more capital on hand. so right now there is an effort afoot to increase capital requirements. so the idea of having an even bigger rainy day fund, if you will, and what they're saying

is, if you make us have a bigger rainy day fund, it means that we're going to lend less money to small businesses, we're going to make less mortgages, and we're not going to be able to be competitive with some of the banks in europe and elsewhere around the world that have lower capital requirements. the united states has actually had typically the highest or some of the highest capital requirements in the world and they're going to say, we are very safe, but i think in the aftermath of what we saw with svb, the silicon valley bank that went under, there are new questions about how much money you need to have on hand at a time when people can go to their phone and take money at will. so that's going to be what you're going to see. you're going to see a back and forth where legislators land i think is going to be, well, the trillion dollar question. >> yeah. at least a trillion dollars. so tonight, of course, is the republican primary debate. there's still a quest to figure out to figure out who the trump alternative is.

seems like wall street might be opening up their wallets to nikki haley. she had a fundraiser in new york city. jamie dimon talked to you about her candidacy. give us a sense there. what's the street thinking about nikki haley? >> it seems that in the past two or three weeks, nikki haley has become the favored republican candidate. i think there really is a view on wall street that they would like any candidate other than former president trump. they've been looking to see who is the possible candidate i think for a period of time there was a view it could be desantis. that clearly, based on the polling, doesn't seem to be the case, and so, you know, wall street likes to pick winners. whether nikki haley will be the winner, i think is a real question. interestingly, she's not just getting support from republicans who are in this sort of never trump camp, but she's getting support from some democrats that are frustrated that president biden is the candidate for the

democrats. part of that is a bit of a view of, again, a sort of never trump view and potentially even an effort to get president biden elected with the idea that if somebody like nikki haley can go the distance or at least can compete with former president trump, that that unto itself can create distance or be helpful to biden. so there's some mixed incentives behind the scenes as to why some of this money is moving as it is. >> cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, as always, thank you very much. you mentioned the republican debate, joining us now from the side of tonight's republican debate in tuscaloosa, alabama, roll tide, senior writer for "the dispatch" david drucker. >> david, i love -- i love your location. way to go. roll tide. >> glad i could oblige. >> give them hell, alabama. so i want to talk about nikki

haley because everybody else seems to be talking about nikki haley right now. of course donald trump still the prohibitive favorite to win the republican nomination. that said, a lot of buzz, mika and i are hearing it -- >> in unusual and unexpected places. >> unexpected places. a lot of conservatives, a lot of whatever, a lot of people are talking about nikki haley. talk about the importance of the debate tonight for her, and for ron desantis. >> right. well listen, time and opportunity to emerge as the consensus alternative to donald trump are both dwindling, and so any opportunity you get, any time you can put yourself before republican voters in a format like this, is extremely important, particularly because the former president continues to hold a big and durable lead. haley is very interesting. she's really the only, you know -- trump has his lead, but among the second tier haley is

the only candidate for the last four months that has had any momentum of any kind, and her campaign believes that if they can get trump one on one, they can go the distance. i sort of liken nikki haley to sof dovetailing off andrew ross sorkin's good reporting for you guys, to a new tech company, right. there's a lot of growth potential. it could really take off, but we don't know if there's enough -- going to be enough consumer sentiment or enough investment to pour in in the beginning to make that happen. that's where nikki haley is. the money has started to come in. she needs the votes. even though this field has consolidated quite a bit, a lot more than many expected, this is clearly not like 2016, with the iowa caucuses on january 15th, and new hampshire eight days later, she is going to need to put together more votes than she has and coalesce everybody who is either -- doesn't want to

vote for trump or is willing to vote for somebody other than trump and that's where this debate this evening could really be pivotal. i would just caution, as you know, guys, we've had three of these debates so far and while they've proven fruitful for nikki haley you need to be the consensus alternative to trump, get within 10 points of him to prove this thing is really competitive, and you've got to do it soon. if you don't wound him in iowa and new hampshire, if not beat him, but if you don't at least wound him, you're not going to take him out in south carolina where he's very popular and you're not going to last and somehow take him out on super tuesday. it's not happening. you need the first two contests and that's where further consolidation is key and that's where nikki haley has to figure out how to get past not just ron desantis in iowa if they can, but deal with the vote that chris christie is controlling in new hampshire. >> well, and it's such a great point, jonathan lemire, i heard

supporters of nikki haley talking about if she finishes second in new hampshire and -- no, that's not good enough, because the second you go into super tuesday it's over. if trump wins iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, it's over. he goes into super tuesday and blows everybody away. so they've got to figure out a way to win maybe in new hampshire, slow him down before south carolina, then they've got to figure out how do you explain losing your own home state. i don't think you do. she's got to figure out how to win in new hampshire and turn that into a victory in south carolina. the good news for her is, there's time. we've got more than a month, month and a half, until south carolina. >> unless she wants to play to be his running mate. >> until new hampshire. a long distance between new hampshire an south carolina, unless as you say, she just wants to be a running mate. >> the point about the calendar was made by a republican operative over the weekend, that that's also explaining why

haley's supporters and team is pressing christy to drop out, if she picks up the krissy support, that would be a springboard to have a month between new hampshire and south carolina she could make up ground, mike, and maybe make a stand in south carolina. south carolina is her home state. that's also where donald trump is exextraordinarily popular and she has an uphill climb there. >> oh, you know, there's an element of this, though, that i just don't get, and i'm not alone in it. how do you overtake donald trump without attacking donald trump? something they seem unwilling to do. david, i mean, i don't know about you, but the morning consult poll we flashed on the screen had trump at 64%. if they cleared the field for nikki haley, she wouldn't come to within a third of toppling him at 64%. so two questions, her shot at clearing the field in a

standalone candidacy against donald trump and her inability thus far to go after donald trump, by name, by issue, by behavior, that's missing. what happens to her candidacy with all of those things in play? >> right. your points are well taken but let me break this down. donald trump has this lead at 64% nationally. his lead is big in the early states, but smaller, and so if nikki haley can coalesce all of the voters that don't want to vote for trump, plus those that are willing to move on, then she can at least make this thing competitive. number two, i would say that she has criticized him pointedly over the past four months or so be on issues, particularly on his handling as president of china, and his handling of national security vis-a-vis china, and other issues. she has made her criticisms issues based. she's attacked him on spending, deficits, unwillingness to deal

with entitlement programs which drive our debts and deficits. where she has not attacked him -- i've talked to republican operatives over the past couple days for a story we have at "the dispatch" this morning where she has not been willing to attack him is on the indictments, on his ethical lapses. all of the strategists believe that it is a loser because it turns off republican voters. they just will not listen. now, we might say, they've got nothing to lose at this point, why not make this a central plank in the campaign? they're simply unwilling to do it because they think it will backfire and make things worse than they already are. >> david drucker, thank you very much. we'll be watching tonight. look forward to talking to you again soon. >> thanks, guys. >> by the way, david is right, if you look at donald trump's approval rating in the republican party, it goes up. >> she's a billionaire icon, producer, now taylor swift was

just named "time's" 2023 person of the year. next, we'll speak to "time's" editor in chief how the magazine made that decision. as we go to break a quick look at what's making headlines across the country this morning. "the los angeles times" how covid, the flu, and rsv are all on the rise in california. the olympian highlights how washington's governor is seeking $50 million to fight the opioid crisis. and "the detroit free press" looks into how general motors is increasing the pressure on over 43,000 workers to return to the office. "morning joe" will be right back. back ♪ we worked hard to build up the shop, save for college and our retirement. but we got there, thanks to our advisor and vanguard. now i see who all that hard work was for... it was always for you. seeing you carry on our legacy— i'm so proud. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor,

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of superstardom for taylor swift. but between her globe-trotting eras tour, rerecording two of her earlier albums and releasing a record-breaking concert movie, swift's success soared to new heights this year. now the 12-time grammy award winner was named the 2023 "time" person of the year. joining us to discuss the decision is "time's" editor in chief sam jacobs. sam, i'm going to be, what's the word, like the person at the party -- well, everyone is going to disagree with me, but my first question to you, and then i'm going to agree with everybody on the set about all the amazing accomplishments and impact taylor swift has had on society, but looking at the guidelines for how this choice is made, is there, perhaps, a concern that you're ignoring like the grave injustice and threats that some of the other people on the lists are posing,

not just to america, but to the world? >> good morning, mika. thank you for having me. i'm always glad when you remind us what "time's" rules are when it comes to person of the year. every year we look at the person that had the biggest impact on the headlines over the last 12 months. 2023, like most years, was a year full of light and darkness. our choice this year is someone who brought light and joy to the world. it doesn't mean we overlook the serious issues that have been discussed on this program this morning. we have a great profile of sam altman, our ceo of the year in this issue, we're looking at leaders across society, but ultimately, what is a greater form of influence than giving millions of people around the world the ability to find their own voice, to gather together as we come out of the pandemic, and to join together in joy. for all of those reasons, taylor swift is "time's" 2023 person of the year. >> and mika is "morning joe's" alone dissenter. i was expecting more groans when

the announcement was made, but most everybody on the set agreed. again, if you look at -- it's like the beatles, the beatles were extraordinary musicians, their impact on popular culture even more extraordinary 60 years later. taylor swift, she, more than any other act, rivals that. it's just next level. you look at not only young girls, but also young women, older women, young men, older men, talk about her impact not only on popular culture, but also on their lives. >> that's right. i mean, she made a space this year by telling her own story for everyone's stories. while taylor swift was like the weather this year, while she was ubiquitous, we don't hear from her a lot. one of the exciting things we have in the issue is the first in-depth conversation she's had with any journalist since the beginning of 2020 and we hear what it was like to experience the year from her perspective.

when it comes to influence, we had scientists, economists, university professors, all competing with each other to find different ways to measure the impact that she had, but i think, joe, as you point out, some of that influence goes beyond measurement. it's about how you make people feel, how you build community, and i think for that reason, she's deserving of this recognition. >> michael, the show runner once said of taylor swift, the greatest concentration of half the people at any time on the planet is her concert audience. that says something about the impact that she has, she brings some happiness to people. let's go through the other con swift beat out. walk us through, you know, there's some familiar names for bad reasons vladimir putin is one. others would be -- another contender, the trump prosecutors. tell us about them. >> i think that's a story that's still developing. hard to argue this isn't the central story of our american democracy right now, what is going to happen to the former president, future president, and there are prosecutors across the united states that are going to

play a tremendous role in that future. i think what this year showed and i think the trump prosecutor story is part of that, the costs and limits of hard power, which is why we selected someone who really demonstrates significant soft power in a way that few others can. >> time magazine editor in chief sam jacobs, thank you very much. we appreciate you coming on this morning. up next, actors constance wu and corbin blue, they're our guests to talk about their roles in the musical revival of "little shop of horrors." we're back in two minutes. with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. and lower your a1c. the number one doctor prescribed cgm. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us

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♪ disposal in the sink ♪ ♪ a washer and a dryer and an iron machine ♪ ♪ in the tract house that we share somewhere that's green ♪ so beautiful. golden globe nominee constance wu performing somewhere that's green from the iconic musical "little shop of horrors." constance stars as audrey alongside corbin bleu as the timid and sweet seymour. corbin, i'll start with you. what's different in this revival, and for those who haven't seen it, fill us in. >> as far as revivals go, this has been a revolving door of incredible performers. i think i am the seventh

iteration of seymour. we've had probably, what, four or five audreys throughout. the show opened in 2019 and it just had its thousand performance. >> i think this is the first seymour audrey combination where both the seymour and audrey are people of color. >> yes. >> which makes a lot of sense for plot-wise what's going on in the show. >> so certainly it is a major film and this off broadway revival historic in that way. con stance, tell us how you make such an iconic role your own? >> well, you know, i relate a lot to audrey because she has really humble beginnings, and she's had to be really scrappy to survive, and so i think i personalize that a lot. and yeah, that's sort of just how i make a lot of roles my own, just bringing your own heart to it. >> share the story line, seymour down on his luck florist with a crush on his co-worker audrey when he studies a mysterious

plant and suddenly they're thrust into a battle to save all oaf human kind. how do you translate that on the off broadway stage every single night? >> the fact that we are in an off broadway stage, this show was meant to be in an intimate house. its origins started with the 1960 film that's a b movie. it's supposed to feel very campy and intimate. they have done a broadway run as well. this was -- even though we have a giant man-eating plant, there's something about when you are amongst solely, what, 280 people that you really feel like that plant's coming for you. >> there are days i wish we had a giant man eating plant here! we do. >> like this morning. >> symbolically we kind of do. >> jonathan used the adjective of iconic to describe part of this show, but it's an iconic performance, the show. it's been around all sorts of

honors. do you come with any extra weight on your acting shoulder you take this part you both have in the show? >> extra weight? i mean, i think it's more of like excitement and privilege and just enthusiasm for it. i mean, the reason it's iconic is because it has these kind of timeless themes of like greed, and you know, late stage capitalism, but also it has incredible heart and is really friggin' funny, and also another thing people relate to, fear of the dentist. that's a trope that -- so i think, you know, because it's iconic because it transcends so many things, and that is what makes it a pleasure and a joy to play rather than some kind of weight or burden or anything like that. we've been having the best time. >> and corbin, a little news

about the two of you, when will your last roles be? >> january 28th will be our final performance, so everybody has about another two or so months to get to the west side theater to come see us. >> like a month and a half. >> get your tickets, constance wu and corbin bleu, thank you both very much for being here. you can catch them as the leads in "little shop of horrors" showing off broadway until january 28th. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up our coverage in just two minutes. wos hi, i'm ben and i've lost 60 pounds on golo. (guitar music) with other programs i've tried in the past they were unsustainable, just too restrictive. with golo i can enjoy my food and the fear and guilt of eating is gone.

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