and that's why i think it may be a good thing that the president is proposing this two-tier system. listen, instead, at the sports that generate zero revenue. lacrosse is a good example. if you suddenly had to pay them $30,000 a year, you know what the university would do, they would just cancel the program. why bother? they don't make any money. i don't trust the universities to keep these programs that don't generate millions or billions of dollars of revenue if they were forced to pay athletes. this is a tricky situation because on the one hand, the athletes who generate the billions of dollars have to be treated differently than the ones that are student athletes, working hard. they need to be protected as well. >> we saw the move many years ago with the olympics where you used to have to be an amateur athlete, and that went out the window, and people still watch and spend a lot of money to do it. >> danny cevallos, the great lacrosse alum of michigan, which i don't like to say that coming

from ohio. thank you for coming on the show. that's going to do it for us this hour. our coverage continues with "katy tur reports" right now. ♪♪ good to be with you. i'm katy tur. will he stay or will he go? or will he be pushed out? there are fewer than six weeks before the republicans start to decide who they want to nominate. and right now, there are a number of forces that could keep donald trump from being that person. colorado could do it, as we speak, lawyers are getting ready to argue over whether donald trump can constitutionally stay on the ballot after he incited an insurrection. which a judge ruled in colorado. a conviction in one of the criminal cases swirling around him could also do it. fulton county d.a. fani willis just listed her witnesses for the former president's election interference trial. trump's own vice president is at the top of the list. four of his gop rivals will try

to do it tonight in alabama by convincing republican voters in increasingly candid language that they are the better choice. and then there is donald trump himself whose own candid language might be enough to do it by reminding voters why they did not vote for him in 2020. >> under no circumstances you are promising america tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody? >> except for day one. except for day one. >> meaning? >> i want to close the border, and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> that's not retribution. i got it. >> i'm going to be, you know, he keeps -- we love this guy. you're not going to be a dictator, no, no, no, other than day one. >> that was trump at a town hall last night doing exactly what so many are warning, telling americans he didn't believe the constitution applies to him, and

while many will no doubt say the former president was just joking there, he has been serious about prosecuting his enemies, emptying the federal government of anyone who isn't loyal to him, going after free speech, remaking the justice department and more. joining us now, nbc news correspondent garrett haake who's in tuscaloosa covering the fbi, former fbi general counsel and msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissmann, and msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin. let's talk about donald trump last night. what is the reaction to what he said to sean hannity in the context of everything that he has been saying on the campaign trail and all of the actions he did while he was president, especially in the last few months of his presidency. >> yeah, i mean, his answer last night sort of put this in the idea that it was all just a joke. something that he could laugh off. donald trump has said for months now on the campaign trail specifically, things like he would go after the biden family

with the special counsel. he ran in 2016 on locking up hillary clinton. he has often expressed expanded ideas of what the power of the presidency should be and could be under him in a second term. so in that context, the reaction was fairly swift on both sides of the aisle, but especially from democtsnd the biden campaign, really pounced on the comments with a version othe idea when someone shows you who they are, believe them. they put out a statement that donald trump is hinting at the idea of being a dictator, because that's exactly what he would do if he was reelected. the trump campaign, far from shyi ay, basically plying, i know you are but what am i. it's biden who's been a dictator, it's biden whose justice department has targeted political enemies in the form of donald trump, and one trump ally tweeting out a list of biden executive actions, cancelling

the keystone pipeline, stopping building the wall. this is a debate that both sides want to have in the context of who would sort of conduct themselves within the traditional scope of powers of the presidency or perhaps beyond in 2025 and beyond. >> my version of that strategy for donald trump in 2016 was to say that he was deploying the i'm rubber and you're glue strategy because he would often take accusations against him and turn around and accuse his opponents of as he's doing now. garrett, let me ask you about the primary contenders, increasingly candid language about what donald trump would mean for the party if he were nominated. what are you hearing? what do you expect to hear today? >> reporter: it's been interesting. there are so many ways candidates have found their voice in criticizing donald trump. it's almost never been on the rhetoric he uses like this. you never hear those criticisms.

to republican voters and our own polling has shown this, criticizing donald trump makes you sound like a democrat. the criticism has been about his policies or failure to enact his policies they agree with him on even or the fact that he hasn't shown up at the debates and therefore must be afraid. i don't expect them to go after the candidates on their own, but the moderators have said in media interviews in recent days, they think going after just joe biden isn't going to fly at this debate. they have made the argument that these candidates all are going to have to go through donald trump to be the nominee, and they intend to force the issue tonight. we'll see if they're able to be successful on that front. >> andrew weissmann, let me ask you about these comments. how do you hear them as somebody who investigated the president with regard to his ties to russia, and as somebody who's seen the last eight years

unfold? >> i don't really see this about a debate of whether he's going to use these powers and sort of is he or is he not, i think that this is a debate about is it a good thing to have a democracy and the rule of law or not. as shocking as that is, if you just look at the area that i was involved in, the use and abuse of the pardon power, donald trump abused it when he was in office the first time, and he has already said that he would abuse it again, for instance, suggesting that he would pardon everybody involved in the january 6th insurrection. and so that is a given. he is clearly going to weaponize the department of justice in the way that he did in his prior term where he said, i want to

use it to go after my enemies and i don't want to go after my friends. he put enormous pressure on the department to not go after and to get rid of the cases involving roger stone and michael flynn that the special counsel, special counsel mueller had brought. so this really is not a question of wondering whether he's going to do it or not, it's a question of whether people are willing to accept this as part of a new america not tethered to the constitution and the norms of this country that we have lived by for over 200 years. >> i'll say thank you to garrett haake because i want to focus on the legal discussion now with andrew weissman and lisa rubin. let's talk about what we're seeing in colorado. this is an appeal regarding donald trump's ability to stay on the ballot in colorado. explain what's going on.

>> jena griswold has to certify who's on the primary ballot by january 5th. you had a lower court judge decide last month that while donald trump had participated in an insurrection, he was still eligible to be on the ballot because he is not an officer within the meaning of section 3 of the 14th amendment. that's the constitutional provision that allows for the disqualification of certain folks from holding federal office or being a federal official if they engaged in things like insurrection. now, on an appeal to the seven-person colorado supreme court, we'll see whether they agree with the lower court judge's ruling after a, you know, fairly lengthy trial, and then of course that ruling can be kicked up to the united states supreme court for its determination as well. >> let's also now talk about what's happening in georgia. we talk about all of these cases. the colorado case could keep him off the ballot. convictions in other case, could

mean he's not suitable in the eyes of a number of voters. let me ask you about what d.a. fani willis doing, and the reports out there that she wants to talk to mike pence that he be the top of the list. what would a testimony from mike pence mean for the rico case in georgia? >> mike pence would obviously be a very strong witness, whether we're talking about the insurrection case or the georgia insurrection case. and the reason for that is he has direct conversations with the former president, including things such as the former president saying you're being too honest when mike pence said that he was not going to not count the votes, and he said that's what the former president said to him. in addition, mike pence in many ways is an exhibit. just by being there. because he was on the same ticket as the former president.

and he was not concluding there was fraud in the election, and he models for the jury how you should behave when you've lost an election. he would be a very very strong witness for a prosecutor, whether it's the federal prosecutors or the state prosecutors. >> lisa? >> i think everything that andrew just said i agree with. the other thing that mike pence can obviously talk about is the direct pressure campaign on him and how that put him in literal physical danger. you know, one of the things i think about in the federal complaint not the georgia complaint is that literally, trump has a tweet at 2:24 p.m. on january 6th, at 2:25, that's when mike pence has to be forcibly removed from the chamber by the secret service. so i think he can also speak to the very human aspect of having been targeted by donald trumps and the danger that it put not only him in but people much further removed from the white house than he was, like ruby freeman, for example.

>> this is a state case where cameras are allowed. does this mean we could potentially see mike pence take the stand on camera? we could actually watch him testify under oath about what he says happened on january 6th? and i know we've talked about what he has written in his book, and he's had interviews where he's been in discussion, but mike pence under oath would be, i imagine, would have to be at least a little bit different than mike pence we have seen in his own hand or during interviews. >> sure. and, you know, mike pence on the stand would be riveting tv, but of course judge scott mcafee in the superior court would have to set a trial, and he has been reluctant to do so thus far. >> what about jack smith? we're going to bounce around to all the different legal cases. there's a little bit of news on jack smith's case in to election interference, talking about using donald trump's own words in the case against the former president. >> absolutely. so jack smith made a filing yesterday, which is required under the law to give notice to the other side about certain

types of proof that jack smith is intending to use, and as the indictment lays out, the prosecution is intending to use lots of statements that donald trump made. for instance, his years long litany of saying there was fraud in an election, no matter what election is. it sounds like he reacted to what, in fact happened to any particular election. he was always having a plan b, which is if he lost saying, well, there was fraud in the election. so it was a heads i win, tales you lose situation. in addition that filing had very tantalizing evidence with respect to violence in detroit, shortly after the 2020 election that the prosecution is going to lay blame for that based on witness testimony, in addition, statements and actions by rudy giuliani and the former

president with respect to going after the cheap counsel of the rnc, as part of an effort to stifle dissent within the republican party. so that he would not have to face any internal criticism in terms of what he was trying to do, according to the government in overturning the election. >> tweets back to 2012 from donald trump. remember, he subpoenaed his twitter feed and was able to get it. one more question to you, and this is regarding a new "new york times" piece. some reporting regarding what one of donald trump former aides kash patel says that donald tmp will do when he's in office. i'll read it. donald trump w prosed to use the justice department to go after hisical adversaries is expected to install mr. patel in a senior roll if he returns to power. quote, we will go out and find theconspirators, not just in government but the media, mr. patelaid. yes, we're going to come after the media about people who lied about american citizens, who

helped joe biden rig presidential elections, we're going to come after you, whether it's criminally or civilly, we will figure that out. what could a donald trump do in that position with mr. patel as one of his senior officials? >> this goes back to the initial discussion you were having with garrett haake and with me. and for people who are listening who think that this is media hyperbole, it is not. the idea that somebody would say that and that there would not be universal and unanimous criticism tells you where we are as a country. and it is imperative that people think about this, not in terms of political terms but about what our country is going to be. this is really not a question of, gee, is donald trump and his allies people like kash patel, are they going to do this? they're telling you they're

going to do it. the issue is whether you care, whether it is something that you think our country, a road that our country should go down. it will be, just to be clear, the end of the rule of law in this country. >> andrew weissmann, lisa rubin, thank you, guys, very much. we're going to obviously keep on reporting on this. we have also have breaking news to report, not great news. we're following this out of las vegas. the university of las vegas, the politics there are reporting that they're responding to reports of an active shooter on campus. they say there does appear to be multiple victims at this time. people are being told to avoid the area. avoid the area of the university of las vegas campus. we're going to bring more information as it comes in. this is just coming over the wires right now. we're working to confirm more. what caused senate republicans to storm out of a classified briefing in the war in ukraine. plus, he helped republicans take control of the house in

2022, and today kevin mccarthy announced he's leaving congress at the end of this month, before his term is up. so why now? and why is marjorie taylor greene saying she hopes no one dies. (caroler husband) think they'd take this mess? (caroler #1) ♪very much so. just trade in that old phone.♪ ♪get a free 5g phone, tablet, and watch.♪ (wife) you really just should have done that. (carolers all) ♪mom is mad. this plan has backfired.♪ (vo) for a limited time, trade in any samsung phone in any condition for a galaxy s23+, watch6, and tab s9 fe. all on us. that's up to $1800 in value. only on verizon. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn.

we are following news from capitol hill, breaking news, where former speaker kevin mccarthy announced that he will resign from congress at the end of this year. that's in just a few weeks. instead, mccarthy says he plans to, quote, serve america in new ways. writing in a "wall street journal" op-ed, quote, i know my work is only getting started. jakehean joins me on that in a moment. but firs t is a funding fight that is getting ugly in the senate over border immigration policy and ukraine. multiple senators told nbc news a controversial briefing for all 100 senators on the white house's request for aid for ukraine and israel dissolved into a screaming match. so what does this mean for

today's initial funding vote? joining me now is democratic senator from pennsylvania, bob casey. senator, thank you for being with us. tell me about this meeting and what happened. >> well, katy, it was a classified briefing that focused on the supplemental bill that's coming up for a vote today. i'll spare you the details of the back and forth. the most important thing right now is that we passed legislation to help ukraine defeat vladimir putin. secondly, to fund the effort that israel's undertaking to destroy a terrorist organization, hamas, and also to provide humanitarian support and support for border security because democrats support border security. i have for years billions and billions of dollars. this legislation has billions more, not just for the border itself in terms of hiring more border patrol, but new money for

screening technology to stop fentanyl. the bill also has a new bipartisan fentanyl bill in the legislation. i don't know how you couldn't vote for legislation this afternoon that would fund all of those critically important security measures. >> i know that you don't want to get into the details of the screaming match, but the details seem to be what matters here because right now republicans don't want to vote for this. what were they saying yesterday about not wanting to vote for this, and how were democrats responding? >> well, katy, there was a dispute, and a continuing dispute about some aspects of immigration policy, but i don't think there's any question that after today's vote, whatever happens, if it passes, that's the best result. if it doesn't pass, every member of the united states senate has an obligation to go back to the drawing board and prepare to get a second vote and get this done. we cannot allow vladimir putin to have an advantage to prevail. if we don't vote for this money for ukraine, putin will win, and

hamas will win. and other despicable figures and terrorist organizations around the world will win. we have to get this done, and we have to stop fentanyl at our border. that's what this bill will do. >> let me ask about the border and where democrats are willing to go from here. here was the president who was asked about whether more border compromises should be made on the part of the democrats. here's what he said. >> would you be okay with democrats willing to put more on border policy to get this current package through? >> yes. we're willing to do significantly more, particularly equipping the border capacity that we need on the border from judges to more border security. in addition to making some substantiative changes. but they're unwilling to do it. i really thought -- i felt good for a while. i thought we were making some real progress. langford's a decent guy.

looked like he was prepared to move in a way, in a direction, that we could come up with a compromise, changing the policy on the border as well as security at the border. but they walked away. it's take everything we have here, their one proposal, which is extreme, or nothing. >> what are republicans asking for that democrats say is too far? >> it's not one thing in particular. look, i'm going to focus on the way forward. we're going to get a deal here. it's going to happen. >> what compromises are going to be made to get the deal? >> i'm not going to negotiate this on television. we'll get a deal on the policy but it's important for people to know there would be zero money available in this bill for border security if democrats didn't propose billions of dollars. there would be zero money to stop fentanyl if democrats didn't propose it. we're the ones who proposed billions for border security and to stop fentanyl. in fact, the republicans took a

bipartisan fentanyl bill out of the defense bill. we put it back in this bill. we're going to get a deal on this. we're going to support ukraine, we're going to support i, and we're going to get one of the most important border security bills in recent american history done. >> we reported a moment ago on an active shooter in las vegas. we're waiting on details. it does appear that multiple people have been shot. i don't know their condition. i don't know how many. but there is another mass shooting, potentially in this country. we've had so many. it's hard to count them all. is the senate, which is controlled by democrats right now, going to propose any legislation in the coming year regarding guns? >> we have over and over again, it's been about a decade now. the only breakthrough we had on common sense gun measures was the summer of 2022. we got a good bill done. it wasn't nearly enough. especially to get universal background checks, and ban these

military style assault weapons. democrats have been trying to do this for years. republicans repeatedly blocked this and surrendered to the problem. we've got to get common sense measures in place. people are demanding it and should be. >> senator bob casey, thank you very much for joining us. what the a.g. says russian soldiers did to an american in ukraine. in ukraine. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ inez, let me ask you, you're using head and shoulders, right? only when i see flakes. then i switch back to my regular shampoo. you should use it every wash, otherwise the flakes will come back.

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as i said, we are following breaking news out of nevada. police at the university of nevada-las vegas are respond to go reports of an active shooter on campus. they say there are multiple victims at this time. joining us now is justice correspondent ken dilanian. we don't know much now but we know the university is telling kids on campus, students on campus, anyone near there to stay away from beam hall, the business school in the area. we're also seeing reports of a number of students who are currently on lockdown. the university continues to send them messages to shelter in place or to run, hide and fight depending on where they are. so, ken, what can you tell us about what you have been able to confirm, and i know we were going to have you on this show to talk about a disturbing piece of equipment that could turn a handgun into a machine gun that

the atf is worried about. obviously we don't know what exactly is going on here. it is part of the environment that we live in. >> yeah, and a record number of mass shootings, katy. you're right. here's what we know about the situation, the university has tweeted as of eight minutes ago, university police responding to additional report of shots fired in the student union. evacuate the area. run, hide, fight. that appears to be separate from the business school area that you mentioned. there have been a series of tweets over the last several minutes from unlv reporting an active shooter incident, and by the way, run, hide fight is sort of an fbi mantra. it's kind of a shorthand for how they want people to respond to an active shooter situation in that order. not to just barricade yourself in a room and stay in place but to try to get out of there. to try to hide. or in a last ditch effort, try to disrupt the shooter in some

way. so, again, we know very little about the situation that's unfolding, except that there have been reports that there are multiple victims. no word on fatalities, unclear whether the shooter is in custody or has been taken down by the police at this time. >> let's go into our local affiliate in las vegas, ksnv who is currently talking to a student on lockdown. >> many people can sign up for the alert. everyone began getting notifications so we are actually about to walk back outside and people screaming, running into the building we're at, that there's a shooter, and we had to stay inside. so that was i can't even tell you the time right now off the top of my head. but we have been in here at least an hour or so just kind of waiting for anything. >> i'm sure that hour feels like an eternity, brett. this is something everybody braces themselves for.

no one is immune for a situation like this. as someone who has covered this type of violence before, tell us what is going through your mind as you're simply going about your day, trying to get your assignment done, and then something like this, which is ultimately everyone's worst fear happens? >> yeah, unfortunately we do cover some terrible events like this far too often, and this is my first time having to shelter in place and lockdown, so i've never been on this side of it, and, yeah, i mean, i'm honestly a little shaken by it all, but i think we're in a safe location. so it's just unfortunate that, yeah, i was talking to engineering students here about their final projects and how happy they were to be graduating in two weeks, and then just at the turn of a dime, we had to flip a switch and find ourselves in the situation now certainly

upsetting. >> we have reports from las vegas locally, and we haven't confirmed them yet in the newsroom, but they are saying that the shooter is down, according to police radio. we don't know, in fact, if that is true. i'm trying to get an idea of how many people you're in the room with. do you have a plan? have you talked about what you would do if the shooter comes into your building and approaches your room? >> so the staff on scene here where i was immediately kind of took charge, put us all in as far back of a room as we can. we have blocked the doors nearby with, you know, what we can to kind of block an entrance from the other side, and i would say there's probably two or three dozen of us here. mostly students, some staff and faculty, and then myself and my photographer. we're just kind of -- many are just kind of crouched on the ground. we're trying to stay away from

the windows as best we can. >> brett, of course, our thoughts are with you. we hate that you're going through this right now, as well as everyone else who is there trapped on the campus. thank you so much for your insight, and we appreciate you calling in and of course we'll be checking back in with you. we want to go ahead and recap everything that we have been learning at this hour. a horrible situation playing out. >> we just listened into our affiliate, ksnv in las vegas. it was a reporter, currently on lockdown in the university. we, again, are still following this. it is unfolding as we speak. we have gotten word that there are a number of victims. we do not know how those victims are, and we do not know the number of victims. there are initial reports the shooter may have been contained. we're working on trying to confirm that. what we know is the authorities and the school itself told students to run, evacuate, get

out of there as quickly as you can or to lock themselves in place because there was an active shooter on campus. this is around beam hall, the business school, it's a four-story building. ken dilanian is still with us. ken, we can't help but talk about this given the are sheer number of these situations that we cover, and there are so many we don't cover on a daily basis. so many people in this country get shot. just so many people. it is the leading cause of death among children in this country. >> it's so clear, katy, that it's become an epidemic at this point. it's contagious. it's just happening so often. as you mentioned earlier, we were going to talk about a story about machine gun convergence devices. we sat down with the director of the atf who's trying to regulate and enforce the gun laws in this country. he spoke of a national crisis of gun violence, and he was

passionate about the idea that this is not america. this can't be all that we settle for here in this country, just these repeated incidents of mass shootings, of gun violence, and as you said, we cover the big events like this. we don't cover the daily drum beat of gun violence in our cities and rural areas. the ones and the twos that are happening almost every day in this country. it's a horrific situation. and, you know, there's got to be an answer for it. >> the las vegas police is now reporting. they're confirming the suspect is contained. i'm not sure what contained means. whether that means that they were able to take the suspect down or if the suspect is in custody. but they are saying contained. ken, there was a number of shootings overnight in texas, in behar county. a man shot multiple people in multiple different locations

according to police down there? >> that's right. and that came after a weekend of a record number of mass shootings, the most in a single weekend. and, you know, these are different things, right? some of them are gang violence, and you know, criminals, you know, disputes that fall into gunfire. and others are what appears to be a situation here, an active shooter situation where someone decides to go commit violence, and those are different kinds of situations with different causes, but the bottom line is the same. we're the only country where this is happening because of the proliferation of firearms, k i. tw officers injured from a man , who went on a shooting spree around austin, texas. jim kavanaugh is with us, as he always is when we find out one

of the situations has happened. retired atf special agent in charge, also an msnbc contributor. jim, i have just run out of things to ask you at this point. >> yeah, it is horrible, katy. the shootings on the large campuses are like urban centers. they are always devastating. you covered it. i did a lot of analysis for virginia tech. the killer in that case is one example, you know, moved between buildings. he was so familiar with the campus. you know, i never used these guys names, except when we're doing inside baseball. i just call them the killer. but he had two handguns. he started out with a murder in dormitory. he locked the doors, he brought lox with him and locked the doors and wound up killing 32 people. just a horrible case. what we're watching in las vegas unfold is reports of shooting at

a beam center, which is some kind of campus facility that you had on your map, and then moving to the student union, so we have another shooter who may be moving before the police can get to him. so the critical thing for the students and faculty and campus employees is to think about run, hide, fight. lay low, if you see the guy, if you hear the shots, get on the 911 because the critical thing is, you know, to contain him. there is a report he's contained. >> this is what las vegas police have said, so it appears that is the case. i don't know what contained means. >> well, it may mean he's still alive but they have him in one building, you know, surrounded by officers. that doesn't mean, he could be holding other people. he could have people alive with him. he could be alone, barricaded, wounded. >> let me just update you. we're getng another report from the police departme down there thathe suspect has been

d a is deceased. this is from the las vegas it police department twitter. the suspect has been located and is deceased, so that is, i mean, it's good news that this is currently over, but again, they have reported multiple victims, and we do not know the condition of those victims. >> we could have a suicide at the end of vulgar murder spree. we could have an officer encounter him and kill him or have another citizen kill him. there's scenarios there, and now the answers ken and the reporters are trying to get is how many people are hurt, killed, you know, what did he do. who is he, what's the motivation, and because he's dead, that's all important to try to stop the next one. that's why we want to get the information, but, you know, we have so much information, and we don't seem to want to stop these guys, you know. that's the sad part of the way

we are in america right now. there's many things we can do. we just won't do them. >> yeah. let me ask a little bit more about that. let's bring in carmen best, former seattle police chief. carmen, thanks for being here. >> you're welcome. >> families of victims scream for change. individual americans scream for change. democrats scream for change. say something more needs to be done. is it going to take law enforcement, individual officers screaming for change, individual officers not wanting to have to respond to scenarios where somebody has, you know, not just a gun but a semiautomatic weapon, a high capacity magazine, the ability to turn their handgun into a machine gun as ken dilanian was just rtin we have overnight in texas, the rerting on a moment ago, two

officers wered. is it going to take individual police officers coming out and saying we don't want to have to face in any longer for there to be actually change? >> you know, katy, to be honest, officers don't want to face this any longer. >> why don't we hear more from them, loudly? >> i think some have come forward and said, you know, we have advocated, as you heard before from ken and others, advocating for, you know, not to have high capacity magazines, you know, for the red flag laws, for common sense gun laws, you know, so that we can minimize this effort, this situation that we're in consistently. with hundreds of mass shootings with a year, and yet we still find ourselves in the same place with more mass shootings than we have had days of the year so far. we don't have the answer, if we

did, we have whatever already. i think there are so many things we could be doing, as we mentioned, and it's just not happening. it's highly frustrating to see yet another situation where there are casualties unnecessarily in front of us. >> let's bring in steve patterson who's also following this for us. steve, what do you have? >> we have been following reports from las vegas metro police. they have been tweeting every five minutes ago. nine minutes they tweeted the suspect was contained. three minutes ago they said the suspect was located and deceased. police units have been active on campus, an active shooting near beam hall, a lot of reports came out around 11:46, local vegas time, that obviously students and staff, and teachers and administrators got these alerts that go out to the entire campus body. and the metro police reported the suspect has been located and

deceased. no further details. details limited. this is a breaking situation with the chaos that must be ensuing in campus, and we are hearing about multiple casualties, don't know about fatalities. this is the latest we have from police. katy. >> ken, as officers go through and try to figure out what happened, when does the federal government get involved? when does doj get involved in a situation like this? >> immediately. the atf, the bureau of tobacco and firearms is going to respond and figure out the province of the gun that was used, gun or guns, whether they were acquired legally, what the history of those weapons were. and the fbi always comes in to support local police in a mass casualty situation like this. they have a victims assistance group that deploys in the event of a mass shooting, and goes to try to find the families of the

victims to get anything they may need including retrieving, for example, a driver's license from a deceased victim on the street or helping to support people in the hospital. the federal government plays a role in all of these. i should have added, based on what you were saying earlier, there's different definitions but "the washington post" keeps a tab. the one previous to this shooting. there were more this year, 39 by their count. up to 41. any year in the united states since 2006, so we're not imagining that these things are growing more common. >> so there is a red flag law in nevada, and we talk about these laws because we wonder if this person showed any -- gave an indication that they wanted to do this, pick up a gun and start killing people, and whether there was any way we could stop this person, family members or loved ones or friends could have

stopped this person from having a gun before they started killing people. we don't know anything about the suspect right now. we don't know the individual's mental state. obviously it wasn't a good one. we don't know what it was prior to this. but there are red flag laws in nevada. they allow police and family members to petition a court and temporarily take away a firearm. and this is according to the nevada independent from july of last year, saying that the laws haven't been used much in nevada. they had been used just over a dozen times in two years. this is an article in july of that year. it's unclear what happened in the past year. red flag laws, ken, how effective are they nationally? >> you know, it various by state, but the sense that we're getting, the more we look into these situations is that police are often reluctant to use them, that the bar is very high.

and we saw that in the main shooting. that was a classic case of red flags. the person had been taken for psychiatric treatment, and still the law was not used. there was no action taken by the police to try to take that person's guns away. we live in country where people are hyper concerned about gun rights. a certain segment of the population, and law enforcement knows that. when we were speaking with the atf just last week, they are fighting that battle every day with the gun lobby and gun dealers. every move they make to try to regulate guns in this country, anything that impinges on gun rights -- >> hold on, let's go back to knsv. they're talking to a student who experienced something. let's take a listen. >> i actually got out, i was able to run to the parking lot. and get off campus. there was some other people who were running off campus as well.

friends that are still there and shelter in place, and they are very scared. this is really bad. >> were you able to get off campus? i'm sorry, i didn't hear the entire thing there, you were able to get out of harm's way? >> yes. >> there was not a way to tell the students. people didn't know. people in the parking garage didn't know. a rot of people didn't know what was going on. >> you weren't notified by your phone. some students were notified through text message. >> we got texts but we weren't on our phone because of presentations. it was a notification but nothing major. it was almost people were running around with their heads chopped off. they did not know what was going on. >> were you trying to go through ways, initially they say you're supposed to run until you can't run anymore. >> i'll tell you exactly, they were trying to herd people into

the building. i took a calculated risk. i would rather just run to my car in the parking lot and go home. i do not want to stay on campus. there was just too many people. we didn't know where it s coming from. i wanted to get out of there. it was not a good -- i did not want to stay. >> you mentioned that you have been in communication with some of your friends, you say they're still sheltering in place. have they been told to stay where they are? >> right now, i think they're still in place. >> and i'm just trying to get an idea here if you heard shots fired, if you had any indication that there was an active shooter on campus, did you hear anything? and what did you see? did it look like a panic situation from your fellow students out there? >> did not necessarily here shots fire because there was construction near the building.

but there was an announcement and people were trying to get back into the building. some people were leaving. different people were doing different things. >> we're so glad you were able to get to safety. thank you for sharing with us a wednesday that you will not soon forget. we're glad your safe and the same for your friends. >> andrew murray is live on campus, you're looking at the pictures from the cameraman he's with. we want to get a sense of what's happening -- >> you heard from a student talking to our affiliate about his experience on campus. again, las vegas police say pol shooter has been contained. the shooter is deceased. we are not clear know how many victims there are and what the status is of those victims. police have said there are a number of victims. again, we don't know any more details than that and this is

just about a 15 minute drive away from mandalay bay where a few years ago, back in 2017, a crazy person, a man with a lot of high powered weapons, shot a lot of people at a country music concert from the window of his hotel room. 58 people were killed. and unfortunately, it seems like we are reporting with frequency on situations where we can say something like 15 minutes away, there was the scene of this other terrible shooting. only a few years back. because. >> translator: there are just so many shootings happening in this country with such frequency. let's bring in clint watts. nbc news national security analyst. also former fbi special agent. i was talking about red flag laws before we went to listen to the student. what's your sense of red flag laws and how effective they are? i know we talk a lot about putting something this place to stop these shootings from

happening. republicans say it's all about mental health. red flag laws are supposed address that. are they effective? >> whether they're effective or not, the answer is yes when applied. i think the problem with their effectiveness is you just don't see them used that much. just as i was coming on, the number of times red flag laws are used is quite low and it really comes down to the debate state by state about what is mental illness? who is ill? i think we saw in maine where a person very clearly had been noted as having mental health issues. very clearly did not lose access to his weapon and we saw mass casualties across the board. in this case, we don't know the circumstances yet but across the country, we look at these shootings over and over again and it's repeatedly that with these shootings, someone saw something related to the

shooter. maybe they brought it up. maybe it was their thought of extremism, domestic or international and yet they still have access to weapons. there's two parts. the frequency and impact. frequency very much tied oftentimes to mental illness but oftentimes to other causes. but the impact is really about the weapons. you see incidents in other countries. the distinguishing factor is access to weapons. any red flag law out there, it can be removed from someone who has ideas. it's going to be effective. it's just not done often. >> we do not have exclusive rights to mental health issues in this country. every other place in the world has people who are having mental health crisis. every single other place. there's no other place that has shootings like this in such frequency and on such a scale. not as consistently as we have them. is there a way to curb access to

specific types of guns or specific types of magazines to stop this from happening? i ask this with the knowledge that there are 3d printers that can print out a gun that can't be traced. you can do it in your living room if you want. >> that's right. there's so many barriers to what is common sense legislation. permits, training and insurance. there's been a lot of discussion about insurance as a way where we have insurance when we drive a car. if you have a bad driving record, you're not allowed to drive a car. you can do a similar system that puts it in the private sector where we can have sensible regulation barriers on access to semiautomatic weapons. say you had mental health

issues. you've had problems at work or maybe in the military. you wouldn't necessarily be able to afford or be able to acquire a weapon. there would be some sort of way to measure this in a systematic way. all those things are blocked in this country. if you look whether it's in japan, europe, the number of incidents are minute. yes, they do have attacks or violent incidents but we're not talking about many dozen people being shot or killed because of the access to just semiautomatic rifles. it is dynamically changed the environment from columbine to now and it plays out every day here in the states. >> i hate this image we're showing on the screen right now. we've seen a version of this so many times be it kindergartners or elementary school kids, high school kids. people at a supermarket. people at a university like we're seeing right now.

in a shopping center. the line of people walking by police to get to somewhere safer or to somewhere away from what has become a deadly crime scene. again, we don't know the status of the individuals who are victims here but you know, we just don't know yet. let's go to vincent perez, unlv english teacher who has been sheltering in place. vincent, what happened? >> well, i had just finished teaching my class. the last class meeting of the semester. the class ended at 11:15 in beam hall. which is where the shooting took place. i walked outside and just outside of beam hall, there was a big, big group of students, probably a couple of hundred students who were there for an

undergraduate event. it was a waffle breakfast. there were students lined up and students sitting down at a whole bunc tables and i was there fewinutes talking to students as i was wondering wh'. what's happening. i left there, walked five minutek t my office.oon as i go one of my colleagues ran into my office and s there's an active shooter on ca i hadn't known that. it out to the balcony of se students running or any kind of commotion and i went out there with several other professors and we were out there and ten seconds later, we just heard a whole lot of gunfire. i would say seven, eight shots. one after another.

loud and very loud even though we're some distance from beh building. as soon as we heard that, we ran back outside and realized this is a real shooting and there's an active shooter on campus. since then, we've been in our offices following the instructions of the police announcements on the unlv campus police e-mail. they've advised us to shelter in place. what i'm hearing now from colleagues out the hallway here is that, is that the police are now evacuating one building at a time. and but we are, we're still here waiting for that to happen. all of the professors and the staff people in our building are in their offices waiting and i'm assuming we're going to hear from the police at some point.

yeah. >> let me just backtrack for a second because i want to go to where you started. you said you were at beam hall where there was a breakfast with hundreds of students and you walked away from beam hall to your office. and five minutes, you got there and heard about an active shooter and that's when you went outside and heard seven to eight shots. >> seven to eight shots. it sounded like a high powered weapon just echoing, echoing, in a way that makes you realize this is something out to kill people. somebody on campus trying to kill students. >> so when we hear that it was in the vicinity of beam hall, are you worried it was at that breakfast? >> that's what my concern was. that this large group of students right out there right outside at the open at the very

entrance of beam hall could have been a target of this shooter because it's just an unusual event. you don't see, you know, all these students together. especially on a morning, you know. and so that was my concern as soon as i heard that this place after beam hall. i've also gotten e-mail messages from students in a class. we just finished the class. at the end of the semester. e-mailing me to see if i'm okay because we were all just in beam hall. >> vincent, thank you for calling us. i've got to hand it over to the next show right now, but again, las vegas police say that the suspect is now deceased. there are multiple victims. we do not yet know t status of the victims. that's going to do it for me today. msnbc's coverage of this shooting at the university of las vegas campus continues right