entrance of beam hall could have been a target of this shooter because it's just an unusual event. you don't see, you know, all these students together. especially on a morning, you know. and so that was my concern as soon as i heard that this place after beam hall. i've also gotten e-mail messages from students in a class. we just finished the class. at the end of the semester. e-mailing me to see if i'm okay because we were all just in beam hall. >> vincent, thank you for calling us. i've got to hand it over to the next show right now, but again, las vegas police say that the suspect is now deceased. there are multiple victims. we do not yet know t status of the victims. that's going to do it for me today. msnbc's coverage of this shooting at the university of las vegas campus continues right

now. it is 4:00 in new york. breaking news this hour. we are covering yet another mass shooting in this country. this one on the campus of the university of nevada las vegas this afternoon. it is still early, but minutes ago, police saidsuspect, now dead. as for victims, police say tre appear to betiple although how many exactly is still unknown. at least one of thes of the ooting, unlv's beam hall, the university's business school, mere yards from the student union. law enforcement is still asking people to avoid the area. joining us now, nbc news justice and intel correspondent, ken dilanian. former fbi agent, peter strzok and with me at the table, professor of politics and journalism at morgan state, jason johnson. ken, please fill in the gaps

wherever possible. what do we know? >> well, about an hour ago, the university of nevada las vegas twitter account posted an alert that said university police were responding to a confirmed active shooter in beh, which stands for beam hall. this is not a test. run, hide, fight. and we know from reports is that that caused a cascade of students. some evacuating. some to lock down in their buildings. they continued to tweet updates. eventually, they tweeted a report of an additional shots fired near the student union, which is not far from the first location. then the las vegas metropolitan police department reported that the shooter was contained and a short time later, the shooter had been deceased. neither organization has released any information about casualties, whether there have been fatalities, what type of

weapon was used. we can in to it from their tweets we're talking about one shooter. now deceased. we don't know male or female. there are a lot of questions about this. but it's clear by response from authorities that this is a very serious situation and there appear to be a number of casualties. >> so you have police saying the shooter is dead but they still want people to stay away from the area. do we know why? >> the short answer is no but it may be because they want to preserve their crime scene, retrieve shell casings. they don't want a stampede of students trampling across the crime scene and where they need to gather evidence, retrieve weapons, that kind of thing. there's a bit of a situation unfortunately we've seen this all too many times where people do the wrong thing in these situations. the run, hide, fight mantra does not mean simply lock yourself in

a room and stay there. in some cases, that can be the wrong decision to make. i've done stories where i've attended active shooter training and the experts will tell you that is not necessarily the thing to do. it seems to be the thing we're seeing over and over again particularly in these university and school settings. where actually, what the fbi would tell you the first thing to do is to get out of there. evacuate. in fact, that's what unlv urged people to do in their twitter, their initial tweets about this. but you know, what we're seeing is that students are apparently hunkering down in classrooms and buildings right now. >> peter, pull back the curtain for us. give us a sense of what it is that law enforcement is doing at this moment. >> i think ken laid it out well what's going on with local law enforcement and the assistance i'm sure of state and federal authorities. you've got to, things are still very much in flux. although it appears the gunman is dead. law enforcement wants to make sure that there are not any accomplices, any coconspirators, any explosive devices or any

other hazards that the gunman might have left behind. so there will be a deliberate, cautious process designed to ensure the safety of everyone involved. if there are people sheltering in place in classrooms, that the situation is revolved in a way that doesn't result in any further injuries. so this is going to take some time. information is going to evolve over time. certainly the tragedy is that just blocks away six years ago, the mandalay bay shooting where scores of people were killed. you know, that unfortunately the expertise from that mass shooting, you've got a number of people who were very competent in going into situations like this and ensuring that everybody is safe. >> talk to me, peter. police, they'll now be trying to identify this shooter. how will they go about that? >> so there are a number of things. first is of course to identify who the person is. if they have identification on

them or what, if they don't, how they might figure out who the person is. they'll be looking at their electronic devices, cell phones, to see who they were communicating with, where they lived. there will almost certainly be search warrants drafted up for the person's residence and the goal is to find out if the person was acting alone. who were they communicating with. whether they have other weapons. whether there might be other things which would pose a risk to the community still out and not in the control of law enforcement. and of course at the same time, law enforcement is going to be building a criminal case. collecting evidence. you know, whether this person is deceased, of course they're not going to be tried of anything, but if there are other people involved, you've got to process all this information as if it might be needed as evidence in other areas. so there are a variety of things that are going on right now and of course, this is it appears led by city police level officials. but across the board, state law

enforcement resources, federal law enforcement resources certainly processing crime scenes are being brought to bear in this situation in support of that local effort. >> jason, as we watch these images coming out of las vegas and i see those students walking across their campus, i'm reminded of just how young they are. also of the generational reality they grew up, doing active shooter drills in school and yet you're never quite prepared for this. they are dealing with a mess that the generations before have left for them. >> i thought the same thing. when there was a mass shooting at morgan six weeks ago. that was my university campus and i remember and i've had this conversation with faculty. we're thinking these are post columbine kids. they're not okay. the impact of this kind of violence is so extreme on the faculty, the staff, the feelings

of everybody and it lingers. no matter what politicians say and how many drones you want to put around the school and how many new fences you want to create, unless we take a national attitude towards this sort of violence, these kids have lost their safety. there's a college freshman there who's left their home for the first time who's never going to feel safe on that campus again because of what just happened. >> now to marcus green who's become my moral north star on these questions. she lost her daughter anna grace during sandy hook. her son isaiah survives. she talks about the fact that yes, we need to talk about gun safety reform and that this keeps happening. there are communities after communities who are left in the wake without the support to deal with the reality of what has ensued and we haven't even really begun to deal with that means generationally for americans who have grown up with this as a reality and who are survives one mass shooting

hopefully finding themselves to survive another. >> i've come to the fact every university i've visited has had a mass shooting and you can't help if you're 18, 19 years old now, you have to be thinking to yourself all the run and hide, all the shelter in places, they still can't keep me safe. we have a generation of young people now who will never feel safe anywhere. who will never have the opportunity. remember, some of these kids spent half of high school locked down during the pandemic. you know how hard it is for them to come outside then they have this experience? that's i think the emotional part of this that we don't discuss enough. how the long-term impact of this, they will need help. they will need therapy. counseling on campus and so will their parents sending the kids back to school in the spring. >> peter, i want to underline something you said and it bears repeating. this is a city that is familiar with this type of event. you just go back to 2017. gunman killed 60 people there.

when you talk about the fact that that means that law enforcement now understands protocol. that they have that experience. give us a sense, paint a picture for us of how that is showing up today. >> well, i think what you're seeing is a response at one, a tactical level to make sure the threat is in fact gone. that there do not remain coconspirators, that there are not other dangers to the community that are still out there. and that is the primary focus of law enforcement right now. making sure that people who are you know, buttoned up in classrooms rather than leaving, that those people are secured safely and removed from the scene. at the same time, you're going to go and create a backwards looking process. processing the crime scene. certainly the victims they are being hopefully none killed. we don't know yet other than the fact there are reported victims that are being treated at hospitals. the notification of their families is going on. thinking back to some of the comments. don't think of this as just six

victims or scores of victims at mandalay bay. every one of their families, every one of their parents, brothers, sisters, grandparents, friends, neighbor, all of those people are impacted by this violence. we tend to think and just put a number on the folks killed. it's exponentially larger than that. yeah, we have law enforcement apparatus who are trained and accustomed to do it not because they do exercises and they certainly do exercises, but because they've actually responded to real world events in the same city. that's disgusting and it's tragic and there's absolutely no reason we should be still enduring this level of violence that we do on a daily and weekly basis in the united states. >> i want to bring in tom winter. tom, i know that you have been working all of your sources. what have you learned? >> i'm including the reporter of myself and my colleague, jonathan dienst. according to multiple senior law

enforcement officials who have been briefed on what's happened this afternoon in las vegas, there appear to be multiple other fatalities besides the shooter. so we know from las vegas police they are on the record saying they know who or they believe they know who the suspected shooter is and that that individual is deceased. we are hearing there are other deceased individuals as a result of this shooting. the specific number right now, we just don't have the type of clarity on that that i feel comfortable reporting at this stage, but we know it's others. i'm sure there's a lot of concerned parents out there. i fully appreciate that. we don't know whether those that are deceased or those that have been shot or all students or staff or both. so that's some additional information we're trying to get a handle on. it's too soon to know and this is not something that's occurred in the last hour, hour and a half. it's just too soon to know what any sort of motive might be. i don't think anybody should look into that at the stage. it's just too early to say. but that's the latest from las vegas and you all have been

talking at length obviously about the tragedy this city has endured in the past. >> and we are just being told we can expect a briefing from police in about 15 minutes. we'll see what they are able to share there. tom, we've sat here many times and talked about stories just like this. and there is always a push and pull between the need for transparency, a desire to understand what is happening, and the reality on the part of law enforcement and those who communicate on their behalf that not all details can be shared at the exact moment that we might want them. talk to me about that tension. about the, what it is that law enforcement is trying to preserve this this moment. >> i really appreciate the question. when there's potential for an actual prosecution, that's when law enforcement is really hesitant to divulge everything they've learned because

obviously, at some point, they might have to present a trial or a case. now for folks that have been listening even for the last 30 seconds, they're aware of the fact the alleged suspect here is deceased. but what if somebody bought the gun on their behalf that shouldn't have. what if they provided funds for this individual to do what they did today. those are things that might be prosecutable. that's something officials have in the back of their mind as much they would like to tell us at this stage and generally most departments in this day and age have learned the value of sharing with the public as much possible as soon as they're able to learn it and confirm it. they always have in the back of their mind the potential of a future prosecution and not wanting to upset that. then there's the other point, to make sure the information they have in hand is accurate. as you can imagine, you have hundreds of students leaving these buildings. around these buildings, you've got a city, urban campus. a lot of people around. you're hearing a lot of

different things. there's a lot of people talking and telling you what they saw, what they heard, what did they really see, what do they really know and what is the sequence of events. it's been aided somewhat over the past eight to ten years is the ability to get surveillance video quickly, disseminate it quickly and body warn camera has increased tenfold. so it makes it a little bit easier to try to develop a timeline which anybody in law enforcement will tell you is the most important thing at this stage of the investigation. who is this person? when they did start shooting? when did it end? where did they come from? timing is key. that takes a little time to develop so that's a reason why we see sometimes the initial briefing won't have as much information as follow on briefings will have. as you mentioned, that should happen in the next 15 minutes or so and it's the reason why a lot of departments that unfortunately have a lot of experience with this. i think of the nypd saying this

is preliminary information. it's subject to change. we're giving you the best we have, but we're still investigating the crime. a lot of police departments have taken that tact, telling people we're doing the best we can with the information we have, but three or four months from now, that information could change depending upon how we develop the information or three to four hours. just depends on how this goes, but i think given the fact this is a large scale police department that as we've all been talking about has a lot of experience with this and major events, i suspect this initial briefing will have a good amount of information to share. not that any of that information will be good. >> to that point, ken, we know we're about 15 minutes away from police officers giving us a briefing on what has happened here. the big questions you have going into that briefing, ken. >> any information about the suspect. we don't even know whether it's a male or female and what type

of weapon was used. was it an assault rifle. obviously number of fatalities. tom is reporting there were people killed, tragically, in this incident. so and those are the kinds of things that the federal authorities, local authorities, are scrambling to run down even as we speak. and you know, just going back to the situation where we're having you know, these students are sheltering in place and it's being reported now the police are saying they're going building by building and evacuating. i covered the shooting at morgan state jason talked about earlier. we saw awful situations where law enforcement officers were pointing guns in the faces of students because they had to do that. because they were clearing buildings. and they didn't know what they were walking into. so the tragedy of these situations is compounded and jason was right when he said those students will never forget that. i spoke to students and their families. moms of freshmen who were coming in to take them away.

they had just sent their son or daughter off to college and their innocence was shattered. they will not soon forget this incident. it will mark them for the rest of their life and tragically, that's what these unlv students are now going through. >> peter strzok, there are families all across this country watching this, waiting for news. waiting for information about someone they love. talk to us about that piece of the work of making sure that information is shared with families. with people who have loved ones on that campus right now. >> there's a priority of law enforcement. there's nothing worse than being a parent or loved one of somebody you can't get in touch with. i talk to victim survivors of 9/11 of an egypt air crash and there is no harder work i did than talking to a family member and telling them they've lost a loved one. that is absolutely among the priorities of law enforcement.

that is certainly one of the reasons that a lot of information has not put out initially. law enforcement and the government wants to make sure that the families of the victims are notified in advance of the general public. so identifying you know not only the deceased killer, but identifying who the victims are, figuring out who those next of kin are so they can be notified and recognizing that is one of the most highest priority items because that time of waiting, of needing to find out why you can't contact your loved one who is at unlv or in that area is one of the worst things that anybody can go through. that is certainly something that's going on that is one of the primary reasons that law enforcement does not initially quickly release a detailed list of names of victims. they want to make sure the families have been notified but that is you know, that's a terrible, necessary duty and unfortunately is what we're hearing from the reporting on the scene. there are multiple sets of folks who are deceased. victims to have to, their families whose lives now will

forever be changed in a way they cannot and will not ever recover from wholly. >> one other thing i want to add and this is key as we're going to the press conference. you talked about the tension between what can be shared and what can't be. one of the key things you have to do now when you're talking about a campus environment is you have to combat disinformation. usually we think about that in politician. but remember this is a campus of thousands of students who have tiktok accounts. instagram accounts. who are going to be reporting from their perspective. mom, dad, i was in my dorm. this is what i saw. that's when some of these instances you think there might be more than one shooter because you hear students in different dorms reporting. it's not just calming down the parents, law enforcement saying we're on the look out for this. you have to calm down the various silos of information people are collecting this from because if you don't, it increases the likelihood of one, future incidents and two, students being afraid to come back to campus.

they're not watching the news. they're looking at tiktok. there's a heavy responsibility with these press conferences to make sure they're countering the disinformation and assuaging the people. >> i'm told you have learned something since we last spoke. >> my colleague who covers west coast law enforcement for nbc news is reporting that the fbi is on scene to assist the las vegas metropolitan police department and the investigators looking into this shooting. that doesn't immediately necessarily mean anything other than the fbi has tremendous reports and the ability to process large, complex crime scenes. should obviously this take a turn towards terrorism or hate, then obviously the fbi would be in a position immediately to pick that investigation up. so that's point number one. but point number two, it's at that scale that the fbi is there to assist and so i just wanted to get that to you as soon as we

could. still trying to get a better sense of how many individuals have been shot here besides the shooter who is deceased according to police. but we know there are multiple individuals who have died as a result of this incident at unlv today and we're trying to determine at this point whether or not they're students or whether or not there are staff or both. that according to multiple senior law enforcement officials to myself and my colleague, jonathan dienst. we're waiting on this briefing in the next few minutes. >> as we learned from tom, the fbi is in fact on the scene. let's bring in rob, a former fbi agent with a background in counterterrorism. rob, what is it say to you from the fbi is now on the scene? >> well, in all these, the fbi's there to assist and depending on the size, las vegas is a big department. they have plenty of people but they're still going to need help. there's lots of crime scenes anned the fbi's going to come in, assist them. las vegas is still going to be

the lead on everything. one thing that may come in is if they need help with the digital forensic evidence that's coming in with everyone filming and all these other things coming in. we learned after the boston bombing how much video can come in to support an investigation. but with the shooter dead, everything's starting to step back if they're ensure everyone's safe, then they can start making way into walling off what are the crime scenes and then separating like hey, victims assistance, fbi can help with that. and setting up all these other things that are going to be now in this area. >> rob, tie together two things you spoke about. one, whenever we are in one of these situations, we're reminded that one of law enforcement's first objectives is to figure out if the shooter did in fact operate alone or if there was someone else they were planning with, strategizing with one else

who was active in their plans. that's one piece of it. two, this question of a digital footprint and the sense that can give us of who an individual was tied to. who it is that may have shaped or motivated their thinking. how do you tie those two dots together? >> on the digital evidence side, you have two pieces. the side from the shooter. now all the search warrants are going to come out when you identify the shooter and who it is and pulling up all the social media, e-mails, the texts, to see if they had accomplices or someone who may have pushed them forward. if they figure out say this was a race crime and not saying that it is, but people who may have pushed someone to do that are also subject to the law. so there's that part of it. and then there's the digital evidence from people witnesses. the one gentleman talked about

how many tiktoks and videos are now out there that have to be collected as part of the investigation can mount up, too. you did talk about the first priority is making sure that the shooter acted alone. and it is kind of tough because of so many different witnesses and the perspectives on things. they could have heard ricochet gun shots in a building and say i heard someone shooting from this side when it was the same one. getting all those witness statements, even two people looking at the same thing from different perspectives could have totally different witness statements. ensuring the shooter was alone and acted alone and is now neutralized and that everyone is safe. they'll probably have a high probability, but they're still going to run down anything else that may lead to, i think he had help or someone was with him or her. >> just a reminder, we are

minutes away from a police briefing on this shooting. rob, i want to ask you, my colleague reminded us that it is early to be assessing motive and yet that is one of the most critical pieces that police, law enforcement, will try to put together at this moment. walk us through exactly how they make that assessment. >> first thing, if the shooter is neutralized, then you can stop all and look at what is the motive. was it predictable? did they go out and say something that could have been taken? was a warning given that was ignored to a point? it's all for after action if you're not going to go to court. but it is still important. so they're going to start streaming through all the digital social media exploitation and bureau. there's going to be a bunch of it.

if they had face time, facebook, tiktok, instagram, pulling all that out, then doing a search warrant on the computer. they could have been on different blogs or even in the dark net they're going to pull this information from to see what motive was maybe behind this. that can take a long time. people can get frustrated. there's a lot of frustration with the one down in tennessee. but they want to be sure when they bring this out that it's not in fact like hey, someone's just surmising that they had evidence of what was really behind this shooter's motives. >> peter, the question of where the gun or gun is procured came from, how the shooter came upon them. talk to us about how law enforcement will go about tracing exactly where these weapons came from. >> the shooter is deceased, there's a reasonable expectation the weapons or weapons are in

his possession. law enforcement will quickly try and figure out the records of sales of those, that weapon or weapons. those are tracked through the atf. and trying to figure out when and how the gunman bought the weapon or weapons. whether he bought them from a dealer. whether or not he bought them at a gun show. again, these are law enforcement actions that provide data that drive a policy debate. what were the problems? what were the ways this might have been stopped or could have been stopped. that's on the policy side. from law enforcement perspective, it's simply trying to track how it was that the person obtained these. how he paid for them. you know, is somebody -- just drawing back the line where the deceased gunman obtained those weapons. there are agencies involved with

that. there's state agencies that track gun sales. the atf. all of them provide data that will go into that investigative process. >> peter got it right which is -- but put it side by side with ones that are in place or proposed and say could this have been different. yet none of it can be different so long as there is not the cultural willingness that guns are part of the problem. >> it doesn't change what has happened on this campus and it's not going to change the future possibility. that's the danger. i'm thinking in terms of if it's terrorism, if it's just an angry -- if it's about grades, it's the end of the semester. this could be anything, right? >> it could be anything. we don't know. >> we don't know. that's the issue.

even once we find out, that doesn't change anyone's life. it's still going to have people being said. we can come up with policy, but it's playing whack a mole with larger cultural issues. we saw this in some of the video. you saw an armored truck. military people there, it may be because they don't know what other weapons things could be stored around campus. one of the other things we see with young people, with college students is militarization of police and police observation and security issues. so even if you're trying to make the campus safer after this, even after we find out the motivation, you may have on campus resistance. you may have students say i don't want my campus turned into a prison. are the solutions turning this into a place we don't want it to be that's a reminder of this tragedy. >> upon layer upon layer. rob, any minute we're expecting a press conference from las vegas police. your sense of what we should be

looking for, what we can expect this early in this investigation. >> i think there are large departments where they have trained communications specialists so they're going to come out with what they know is fact. hopefully if there's some rumor out there, they can talk about it as true or not. some of the things get crazy. they're going to tell what they know and they're going to say kind of what's next. i don't think you're going to get too much more than that because of just how chaotic it is and how the information is coming in, but i think those are the things you're going to see. >> to the point you make about the fact there are rumors out there and those can do a whole lot of damage. the importance of having law enforcement come out early and dispel those rumors. what difference does that make in the course of an investigation? >> as you saw the unc chapel hill one where they didn't come

out and say that they had a person that they suspected was the shooter was down and you had kids jumping from second story windows out of dorms in order to get out. i thought well, that wasn't good. you have people doing things that can harm them because they still think the shooter's possibly out there when the police, again, they might not have said hey, we got the shooter. we have someone we suspect and we're doing through an investigative process, but we're kind of sure. so i think they really need to come out with what they have now in order to do things safely so that people don't overestimate what's going on. and displaying those rumors that can be dangerous. >> peter, i want to tease apart the second piece of what rob said there, which is what is next, right? we're waiting for las vegas police at this press conference. they are going to walk us through the facts as we know them. they are going to potentially dispel rumors that may or may

not be out there then they are going to talk about where this goes next. your sense of how they will answer that latter question. >> i think they're going to talk about the immediate path ahead. they want to make sure the campus is safe and students are safe and accounted for. this is not a neighborhood. this is a campus environment within an urban setting so you have a high density of people. of students who are away living in dormitories, living in apartments away from their families. so just by the nature of the compact, dense population, it is going to take time and because it appears the gunman is deceased, law enforcement has the luxury of doing deliberate clearing. of taking a little bit more time to clear buildings to add an extra level of safety. that's going to take some time to make sure everybody is accounted for, campus is safe and students have returned as best they ever can to normalcy. the second thing, you're going to see at the site of the

shooting, continuing processing of the crime scene. bringing in experts who can look at the ballistics of where rounds were fired. where they traveled. where they impacted. the victims who were hit by that gunfire then finally as rob and others indicated, going out and looking at the gunman himself. executing search warrants of his residence, vehicle, social media accounts, his e-mail, and tracking back and doing all of that investigation. those are three broad tracks that are going on right now and that are going to be going on for some time. certainly hopefully the physical clearing and securing of the scene will be the first to be accomplished and hopefully fairly quickly but the other two avenues, processing of the scene and teasing out the background investigation of the gunman, that can take time. the authorities, their goal is to tell what they know in a credible manner to the extent there are rumors going around, to rebut them. certainly be on social media.

we've seen it time and again, people posting their version of events or speculating, identifying who the gunman was and doing their own research and particularly, you have malicious actors out there as well. people trying to seed disinformation. people who are trying to make something out of nothing. that again, that's data that plays into a policy discussion of what role we want content moderation wise on social media, but all these things, it goes down to the what law enforcement is doing and the clarity of how they're going to communicate that to the public. >> let's listen to the briefing. >> the suspect at this point is deceased. we do not have information on any potential victims at this point. what i can tell you as well is that the entire nevada system of higher education in southern nevada campuses are all closed

out of caution. there is no threat to any other campus. with that, i will turn it over to the sheriff. >> i'm kevin mc mahill and i want to say to the community, there's no further threat. i will tell you this combined police, state, local, and federal law enforcement along with the fire department worked very well as the chief told you. we have one suspect down. of course, we have no idea on the motive. there are a number of victims that have been transported to area hospitals. so i don't want to give you false information and tell you how many victims we have. we will be providing that update very, very shortly. i want to assure the community there's no further threat. we are continuing the investigation here. this is still a very active and dynamic scene so if you can avoid the area, we would appreciate it. we'll be providing additional

updates in the near future. thank you. yes, there are victims. >> yes, on behalf of the entire first responder community of course our hearts go out to any of the families that are affected by this. our update now is that we have a reunification center that has opened up at the convention center. that's at the north hall. it will take time to transport students over to that area. but if you can't get a hold of your loved ones right now, your kids or somebody that you're concerned with, then that would be the place to go and to try to go ahead and do that reunification. we will have people there to assist you. we also have a phone number. it is being staffed. it's 702-455-aide and there will be a website opened up. it's facofsouthernnevada.com. okay? and so that is our current

information that we have for victim services and that will change or be updated as necessary but we will have those resources there. understand when you call that number or check the website, the information right now will still be limited and there won't be any specific information as far as individuals that have been injured or deceased. >> sheriff, what's happening on the campus now? >> so as you can imagine, the campus is a very large area to cover. much like we had in the aftermath of october. there's a lot of additional calls coming in that students hunker down, they're afraid, they're scared. our officers are going unit by unit, building by building with the university police and the rest of the police officers, firefighters, ems, and making sure we don't have any additional victims or subjects. we'll be back in the future to provide an update. >> i have an update on the

website. facofsouthernnevada.org. i believe i said com. >> thank you, sir. >> we're learning a number of things. no information they were able to share on potential victims. police saying there is no further threat. also saying they have no idea at this time about motive. a number of victims being transported to local hospitals. nevada state system schools. those campuses are closed out of a quote abundance of caution. information being shared about victim services. a lot to process. >> a lot to process. it's not comforting if you're in that moment. i just have to say that. having every single campus in the state shutdown, it may be a necessary move and it's probably a wise move, but it doesn't make people feel better. they're going to be concerned. even if you have caught this particular individual. this particular individual

happens to be dead. i think the other thing to remember is this. the sooner we find out how many people have actually been harmed, every little piece of information, when you're in the midst of chaos, allows you to feel a little bit better. how many people? where was this person? i know this isn't information that can all be released now, but you don't want to go into the weekend with people not knowing because that will lead back into the speculation of what we were talking about before online. >> i am struck by something they said there, which is that there's no further threat. how do they say that definitively? what information do they have that allows them to say that? >> i think it goes back to the witnesses and who was shooting and that they put the shooter down. i don't think it's 100% like if there was a multiple shooter incident, if there's something going on somewhere else. but i think 99.99, hey, we got the shooter and they want to calm down the campus to a point

of where they can start doing other things. there is that fringe this he may have had or she may have had help, but i think for the most part, that's not likely. and that they know that the person who is doing the shooting has been put down and they can say that. >> i'm curious, peter strzok, this idea of closing campuses across the state. how that type of decision is made. the type of conversations that happen behind the scenes to make that decision. the type of conversations that happen when they decided it's time to open those campuses back up and how you create a sense of safety and security in a country where this happens more often than it should. >> well, that's a state level decision. so you know, first of all, that's not made at a city level. based on information that's available works its way up to the state. every state has a process. sadly, those processes have been

identified and exercises just because of the nature of the history of gun violence that we have and of course, you make decisions from a safety perspective. it is always the best to be, to be overbroad in your application of security procedures and roll those back than go the other way around and say well, we don't need to be super security conscious and god forbid this person had an accomplice in a different city of university. so it's better to be more strict and roll those restrictions back than to try to go the other way around and risk another attack. so, again, a state level decision. i understand that in my opinion, that's a prudent decision and a justifiable and defendable decision. i think think certainly i would hope and expect that as they are able to confirm that in fact the gunman acted alone, that he didn't have any other you know, weapons or other destructive devices that he might have had access to, that you would see that unwound and rolled back

fairly quickly. but again, can't place any fault on the authorities for being extra secure at the beginning and then reducing those restrictions as the situation becomes more clear. because the one constant universally every time, every incident, is going to be confusion and uncertainty at the beginning. it just takes time to figure out what's happened. and the best way to provide for public safety is to provide for the most amount of security you can at the beginning. >> let's bring in democratic congressman, eric swalwell of california. we're about the same age. we're both raising little kids doing active shooter drills. my daughter's teacher on back to school night showed us the way they practice, what they will do if someone with a gun ends up inside their building. the grown ups were supposed to figure this out and they haven't

and we are watching the next generation live with the consequences of that inaction. >> that's right. and this is not even the first time you and i have scheduled an interview and then the topic of the interview changed because a mass shooting had occurred. so my heart beats for the families in las vegas. i thank law enforcement who took down the shooter, but it's just insane to me that our children have to live this way because if you think about everything else we do in our lives. you know this as a parent. almost everything we do is geared toward protecting children. from the tops that you put on medication to what you put on your stairs to prevent them from going up or down to the way a car seat the angled. we think about our children in almost every situation of their lives until they become adults except when it comes to protecting them from firearms. so this is a choice that

lawmakers have made that we will expose them to the most dangerous people who will have access to the most dangerous weapons and they'll live this way. i just don't accept we have to make a choice that sacrifices and compromises their security for some perverse interpretation of the second amendment. >> you referenced the topic we were supposed to talk about, which are very real threats to democracy. the reality of extremist republicans in the body you currently work in. and in as much as there's a future threat, there's also a current threat and there's also a trade off to the fact they do not have their eye on the ball. that they are not focused on the realities what is happening in this country. the things that people actually worry about when they say safety and security. their desire to focus on things that do not matter on side shows, it comes at a real price.

>> it's a real price when this building is intently focused on hunter biden's laptop and has been unable to connect any dots between hunter biden and his father, but have focused and shutdown this building to advocate on behalf of donald trump and go against joe biden then you see that kids across our country aren't going to school because they are on lockdown. it just seems like we don't have our priorities straight as far as what people sent us to do. you can use this place to entertain for an audience of one and the former president or you can use it as a place to govern and attack the issues that the people who sent us here care the most about, which is being safe in their community and knowing their kids will go to school then come back. >> congressman, what do you say to the young people who today have lived through this and yet their lives will never be the

same either because they have lost a teacher or a member of their class or someone who lived in the same dorm. the fact that their campus is now a crime scene. how do they maintain that inaffable desire to activate change? >> they already have. it's not enough but after parkland, those students and parents pulled themselves up out of that unimaginable tragedy and they organized the march of our lives movement and in the 2018 election, they beat 19 a rated nra members of congress. we passed in signing the law the safer communities act. so there's more that they can do but i'm haunted by a mother who recently told me after a school shooting that her 6-year-old said when she saw the faces of some of the children on tv, her

6-year-old said to her mother, mommy, what photograph will you use for me. that is awful that a child would even imagine that could happen to them or that we would allow them to be in an environment or live in a community where we're not protecting them. and they shouldn't have to focus on that. >> they shouldn't be cleaning up messes they did not create. congressman, as always, thank you. our breaking news coverage is going to continue after a quick break. stay with us. going to continue break. stay with us rams protein, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. (♪♪) kate is going big and going home for the holidays. that's the plan. at michaels she got everything to make cookies that were anything but cutter. turn ideas into i-did-its. ♪ (holiday music) ♪ [city ambience sounds] [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx]

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the situation at the university of nevada las vegas. here is what we know. multiple people were killed and the suspect is dead after a shooting on campus. let's bring in former homeland security chief for washington, d.c., denell this is in a city unfortunately seasoned to mass shootings. 2017, 16 people dead at the hands of one gunman. as you watch this unfold, help us understand what law enforcement is doing now. >> some of your previous commentators mentioned they're going through the identification of the suspect. they're running down any leads, specifically looking at the weapons. they may turn that information over to atf and make sure that weapon was legally obtained. if not, how did they get that weapon? perhaps someone else may be involved in a conspiracy.

they're looking at open source intelligence gathering. oftentimes with these shooters we find what's called leakage, which means they maybe put out on a chat group or an online forum that they're going to plan something. we often get people that are stopped before that happens. that happened about a week ago where someone reported something. often these lone actors don't leave any online footprints or leakage and they go and commit these acts. they're going to continue to run down any leads and tips they may have including family members to kind of get an idea of why this person did this, are they affiliated with anyone else? we near a really jumpy time right now with all the threats from overseas, particularly from foreign terrorist goringizations. they're not going to leave any stone unturned. one thing that i may add that i got from the press conference that was just given was the fact that they're opening up not only

a family reunification which is important, but also family assistance center. one of the things that i work with las vegas authorities, even before the october 1st shooting with the coroner out there is deploying and activating a family assistance center which is only done for what we call mass fatalities incidents. it's clear there are several individuals that are dead and they don't have identities yet. >> i was going to say, we were waiting for that police briefing. of course, one of the big questions everyone wants to know when they get a sense of the number of victims, who they were, how this all transpired, the decision not to release any of that information, donell, what does that tell you? >> they may not have that information. i did forensics for about a decade. in many of mine counters, when i was in new york city running the forensics unit, i worked closely with the clark county coroner. their plans are similar to our plans.

often, and this may be graphic, and i do apologize. often when the shots start ringing out, people drop their pocketbooks, their purses, where they leave their identification, and they may succumb to their injuries 10 feet or 100 feet away from where their idea case is. that's why having a family assistance center is so important. you can bring loved ones who haven't been rejune need with family members, get what they call contextual idea case, anything from dna swabs, bucchal swabs, to make sure they're able to link up those victims with their loved ones. they may not have that information. if they do have that information, they're certainly looking to find those loved ones first and notify them before they put them out. the last thing you want to do as a family member is be watching the news and see the identity of your loved ones that was

pronounced dead at the scene and not being contacted by law enforcement first. >> earlier tom winter reminded us it was too early to substantiate a motive. you then had police during their briefing saying they had no idea on motive. you touched on it, but let's go back. the things that law enforcement will do to begin to piece together a motive and the time that that takes. >> well, it could be pretty quickly, if this person has a pretty substantial online footprint and they're able to track that down. sometimes these lone assailants have a manifesto that they'll upload to a reddit or something like that, some type of online forum. it can take days. in certain cases you may never know. i'll harken back to the las vegas shooting at the mandalay bay. there's still no clear motive for that shooter.

so, unfortunately, family members and victims may not have a motive. this day and age where a lot of things are posted online and people have an online presence, this individual was not a loner, has family or friends, they'll start piecing that together rapidly because people want those answers. people also want to know if anything was reported, if there was what we call leakage and if anything was reported to law enforcement, why was that not followed down on. they want to cover their bases to make sure that, a, this person is acting alone, that the threat is actually -- has actually been terminated. b, that they have some type of idea of a motive, that they can run that down, and c, to make sure that no law enforcement or university officials were contacted about this individual and potential threats and acted

upon. >> donell harvin, thank you so much. stay with us at home. we'll have more breaking news on some of the stories we had planned for "deadline: white house" up ahead. hite house" up ahead. is this for me? if you like squeaky toys from chewy it is. did i get anything this year? get up to 40% off gifts that bring the most joy at chewy. i'm still going to eat your socks. no, you're not. get great deals on gifts that deliver excitement

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why are we the only birds heading this way? and build a treatment plan with you. ♪ ♪ what is that? duck à l'orange. what's duck à l'orange? it's you, with l'orange on top. hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york, i'm alicia menendez. we continue to track the shooting in las vegas. we know the suspect is dead, there is no more threat to the unlv campus, but there are multiple victims. joining us now, nbc news justin and intel correspondent ken dilanian what more do we know? >> it was about two hours ago

that unlv twitter began warning residents and people in the area that there was an active shooter and they should run, hide and fight. that's the fbi shorthand for what people should do in the event of a mass shooting. not too long after that, it was reported that the suspect was contained and then the los angeles metropolitan police department said they had, in fact, killed the suspect. we learned during the police briefing that they believe there was no more threat, although they didn't really answer the key questions, didn't provide the key information about number of casualties, identity or motive of the suspect, type of weapon used. they did say that they are still going sort of door to door, building to building to be sure there are no other threats and to reassur the students and workers there that it's all clear to come out. the key questions in this situation remain unanswered. we do know there were multiple casualties in the situation.

nbc news is reporting it's unknown how many fatalities, but a really grim day in nevada. >> we're reminded, ken, that law enforcement's objective here is to begin to put together a timeline of how this all unfolded. talk to me about the work that they are doing right now, the assets that they are aggregating in order to build that timeline. >> right. you've got multiple levels of law enforcement responding to the situation. obviously you've got unlv campus police, las vegas police, the fbi and the atf on scene. the atf is focusing on the firearms, trying to trace the firearms, trinidad and tobago the providence, where they were purchased, was it legal, what type of weapon was used, what type of ammunition, those kinds of details. the fbi and local police are trying to establish a timeline, anything from surveillance video to cell phone records to witness accounts. there's a huge amount of

information swirling in the digital ether around any incident these days. and they can quickly establish very precise timelines about what happened when, they're going to want to know how many shots were fired, where the victims were, where the incident took place, begin establishing all that, even as another team of people is tracking down any information they can about this suspect. they no doubt have an identity now, although they haven't released it to us, and would begin looking at social media, interviewing relatives, trying to find any possible information that points to motive. sometimes that's very apparent, as we've seen in these cases. other times it's hard to discern and takes a really intensive investigation. we don't know yet what is the case in this situation, but we may find out as soon as tonight. >> in advance of the press conference that we're waiting for just a few minutes ago, we're told to expect two things. one, for police to be able to walk us through what it is that they know, the facts as they

have them. there is, of course, the reality that they cannot share all those facts in realtime, and secondarily, a sense of where it is that this goes next. we know, for example, ken, that multiple campuses within the nevada system are being shut down out of an abundance of caution. your sense after that press conference where this all goes next? >> and sporting events, for example. college sporting events have been canceled. that's more of a reflection of the gravity of the situation. we saw that with the morgan state mass shooting a little while ago, where campus was shut down, even though there was no more physical threat. it's kind of a thing that generally happens in these situations as people can gather and mourn and collect their thoughts. in terms of where it goes from here in terms of the investigation, it very much depends on what exactly we're dealing with here, what the motive was. they obviously clearly have to rule out that there was any

assistance given to the lone shooter they say they killed, and they have to figure out exactly what happened and why, alicia. >> ken dilanian, thank you so much for joining us. i want you to come back as you have as soon as we know more about the victims, we'll bring it to you. there's a lot of other news to get to in this hour, including the 2024 campaign. donald trump reacting to reports about concerns that he would govern as an authoritarian. donald trump is coming right out and saying it. watch. >> i want to go back to this one issue, because the media has been focused on this and attacking you, under no circumstances you are promising america tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution on anyone. >> except for day one. >> mean? >> i want to close the border

and drill, drill, drill. >> that's not retribution. [ cheers and applause ] >> he says you're not going to be a dictator, are you? i said no, no, no, other than day one. >> other than day one which is another way of saying, yep. it's at flashpoint we've monitored for years one that has accelerated at light speed this month. trump is not alone, you just heard people gleefully cheer for a day one dictatorship. the support among republican voters and permission structure among gop lawmakers that nearly allowed him to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power in january 2021. what's more, he has a greater understanding of the levers of power in government and an inner circle hellbent on it. remember kash patel, the guy trump wanted to make deputy

director at the cia or the fbi? he may well be in the conversation for such a position or an even bigger one in the next trump presidency. listen to this conversation with steve bannon. >> kash, i know you're probably going to be head of the cia. do you believe you can deliver the goods in this in pretty short order, so we can get rolling on prosecutions? >> yes. we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens, who helped joe biden rig presidential elections. we're going to come after you. >> just so we can be clear, that's a would-be intelligence official, celebrating the idea of prosecuting journalists for doing their jobs. like we said, these aren't hints about what trump will do in a second term. they are promises. joining us now, former u.s. attorney and co-host of the sisters in law podcast, joyce vance, plus political strategist

matt dowd and jason johnson is here. i want to tie two threads together, as a scene is unfolding in nevada, one of the things we're reminded of is the fbi would be on the scene, that the fbi was there to add support. we talk about someone like kash patel potentially being the head of the fbi and serving at the hands of a man who said, given many tunes to say no, i don't have any dictatorial ambitions, no, actually took the bait and said day one. day one my priorities are the border and drilling, not dealing with any of the real problems that are unfolding in this country. >> well, you know, i'm really glad we're having this conversation because your past hour of heartbreaking reporting is directly related to what donald trump is envisioning for america. they're directly intertwined. at the basis of democracy, which donald trump and many of his supporters seem to want to throw

away in order to get whatever the cult leader wants, the basis for democracy is ensuring the common good and reflecting the will of the people. those are the basics for democracy. those are the only two days we'll get any reform in our country. as i listen to all of this, and you and i have had this conversation and the other panel members have been in this conversation before. we've already had 40,000 gun deaths this year, 40,000. we've had 2,000 -- 2,000 multiple gun fatality shootings in the last three years. not two, not 200, 2,000. it's directly tied. if donald trump has his way -- i would say it's donald trump but it's also the path of many of his followers. the thing that's going to be different if donald trump wins -- i know a lot of people say, well, we have these guardrails in place and they'll be sure this happens. donald trump has already said he's going to remove most of those guardrails.

he's not going to have a mike pence as vice president that will stop him from continuing on in the presidency. he's not going to have the people in the cabinet that will hold him accountable and not do things as secretary of defense that he demands in the course of this. he's going to have royalists who are going to do exactly what he says, ala dictatorship. the basis of why the threat to our democracy and gun reform, gun violence are so tied together, if the listeners can understand -- i know people are dissatisfied with the economy as they see it. if you want common sense gun reform, you don't vote for donald trump. if you want anything done on any of the major issues, you don't vote for donald trump and the republicans in the course of this. that's why these two issues are so interlinked because it's the will of the people at stake. >> matt just listed a number of the guardrails that should be in place that donald trump could dismantle. one of them could be members of the u.s. senate who get to make

decisions about whether or not they confirm some of these appointees. that brings you to the question of gop lawmakers. i know it's easy to wash kash patel talk and say, okay, this is red meat, this is steve bannon. i want you to take a listen. yesterday liz cheney was on with nicolle. this is what she said about gop lawmakers. >> this is a situation where you have the republican party actively trying to ensure that people -- actively trying to whitewash what happened on the 6th and to collaborate with the former president. i think that's a really important point. the threat that he poses wouldn't be so significant if people had done the right thing, had said no, that's not who we are. but instead, there's obviously this embrace of him and this collaboration with the very damaging efforts he's undertaken.

>> he has an entire infrastructure around him. >> this is what's so dangerous about what trump said -- not that it's new. imagine jeffrey dahmer, you never have a serial killer out on the street, are you going to kill people again? only on day one. i'll only eat someone on day one. >> and a crowd roars. >> here is what's dangerous. it's not just the kash patels, it's the whole project 2025. they've already laid out a handbook for how we're going gut the entire bureaucracy and put in nothing but individuals who will guarantee that trump is insulated from the law, investigations and guardrails. we can't trust members of congress because half of them were pretty much covering up what happened on january 6th anyway. it's absolutely necessary for the american people, it's literally on the american people and the current administration to make sure those people can vote to make sure this never happens because left to

guardrails, left to our better angels, we're in trouble. >> the american people become the ultimate guardrail. joyce vance, the january 6th select committee, it showed how major figures at the justice department, they threatened to resign en masse. what happens if -- trump has legal loyalists who are willing to do whatever it takes to satisfy their boss. what then? >> right. i think we're talking about the difference between someone like mike pence who obviously signed on with the understanding that he had to be personally loyal, even though at the end he did the right thing. compare that to jim comey who declined to extend personal loyalty to trump rather famously, and the fact that trump -- wiser -- i use the word wiser advisedly, the 2.0 version of trump will make sure those loyalty oaths are an explicit condition in order for people to

become political appointees in the administration we all hope we won't see in 2025. then the question becomes, can the career people form some sort of guardrail? we know trump has already committed as part of the 2025 project that jason was mentioning, to rooting out people in the career civil service who are simply committed to doing a good job regardless of which party is in power. alicia, the point here is that people need to pay attention. trump is not trying to hide the ball on what his plans are for a second administration. it could very well be the end of the rule of law because that's, in exact, what all of this adds up to, a government that's loyal to trump, an authoritarian leader as opposed to an elected, constitutional republic where leaders are responsible to the people who elect them. >> where there are people that are loyal to him, let's talk then about the attorney general. i want to play something else. this is from september, and it has to do with a person named

mike davis. take a listen. >> there's a couple people you can put in positions like that. we talk about mike davis as attorney general. >> during my three-week reign of terror as trump acting attorney general before i get chased out of town with my trump pardon, i will rain hell on washington, d.c. we've talked about this, ben. i have five lists ready to go and they're growing. list number one, we're going to fire, fire a lot of people in the executive branch of the deep state. we're going to indict joe biden, hunter biden and james biden and every other scum ball, sleaze ball biden. i'm going to recommend a lot of pardons. every january 6th defendant is going to get a pardon. >> jason, before i go to joyce to talk about the stakes if that person actually had power, why do they treat this like fantasy draft football? >> because they have a base that's not going to hold them accountable. think about the base that's

voting for these people. they're dealing with the same inflation. they're dealing with their children being shot at in mass shootings, dealing with gas prices, health care, all the real issues, but they don't care. they don't care. they don't want a party anymore. they want a revenge tour. they want someone to shake the table. you no longer have a functioning party. i say this all the time. the republicans are basically a personality consult at this point. they're able to act this way because the people who vote for them in longer expect to receive policy anymore. they want emotional response. the danger of this is, since we only have one functioning party, the functioning party needs to put the guardrails in now. they need to start putting policies in now saying, hey, you can't do this. we're going to make this constitution, put this into policy. if you don't do it now, and the off chance that trump gets into office, there will be nothing to stop him if you don't establish these things are illegal now. >> i don't know that i fully buy this idea that people don't care about their kids' safety or the

cost of things, but where i do think you're right, i think they have been sold this idea that the government cannot be the agent for those things, and there's so much dysfunction that you might as well, as you say, flip the table. joyce vance, if that person were then the attorney general of the united states of america, what then is on the line? >> everything is on the line. that's a macabre "saturday night live" version of what due process would be. we have due process in this country. criminal prosecutions aren't meant to be a political weapon. yet, that's precisely what he's talking about in that clip. perhaps more frighteningly, that's donald trump's vision for the future, where the justice department is another political tool at his disposal. >> matt, there's jujitsu that trump likes to do, an email blast from a trump pact today suggesting, quote, there's a dictator in the white house already, and we've seen him sort of test driving this out on the

stump, this idea that he is not the one with authoritarian tendencies. in fact, do you remember the interview he did with univision? that was sort of the me the most dang route part of it, that he tried to act like all these things he wants to do are already happening when, in fact, they're not. if you're not paying attention, you might believe yet this newest lie? >> well, everything about trump and the people around him is all the art of projection, everything, from corruption to their view of what the threats to democracy are. it's all the sense of projection. everything they do is actually what they accuse somebody else of doing in the course of this. to me -- i'm going to go back to something jason said in the conversation that you had. all of these things individually to donald trump are incredibly disturbing. they're giving all the signals. this is clearer than what adolf hitler laid out in mine come of. he had sense enough to not say

thes things explicitly what he was going to do on day one. he just did it in day one. and democracy was gone in germany for 13 years in the course of this. what is disturbing to me, most disturbing is a third of the country is fine throwing democracy away as long as they get their retaliation, and their disturbing fact of a country they envision which most of them want some form of theocracy which they think has been abandoned over the last 30 or 40 years and they blame republicans and democrats for that, they just happen to be part of the republican cult, as we say, is that a third of americans really -- if it boils down to would say, yeah, if i get exactly what i want and this revenge tour happens and if american democracy is thrown on the ash heap, that's fine to me. that's very disturbing. >> matt dowd, president biden was asked a pretty interesting

question by reporters today. take a listen. >> do you think there's any democrat that can defeat donald trump than you? >> 150 of them. i'm not the only one, but i will defeat him. >> matt dowd, your thoughts on that retort? >> i think he's right. there's at least 40 or 50 democrats around the country from governors to senators to current vice presidents that could defeat donald trump. the problem is right now joe biden is the one holding the party together. you can't just say i'm going to leave and, tlvr, think something is going to emerge that is able to beat donald trump in the course of this democracy. mash if you had said it three years ago, there would have been time. at this point in time the ability to coalesce the party around person which only seems to be joe biden at this time in the course of this, i think he was being incredibly honest.

i also think, the other part of that thing he said in the last 4 hours was that if donald trump wasn't the nominee or if somebody else was the nominee, he may not have run again in the course of this. i think he sees it as his personality defense and his stand. my guess is in his heart of hearts he doesn't want to have to go through this again, but he's willing to do it for the sake of our democracy. but at this point in time, to coalesce the democratic party and not put it in a free-for-all, he's probably the only one at this point that can do that. >> matt, joyce, jason, you're all staying with me. when we come back, a significant moment in efforts for accountability for the january 6th insurrection. a group of fake trump electors admitting finally that joe biden won the 2020 election. later in the program, we'll turn to the election interference case in georgia, and brand new reporting there that the former vice president mike pence may be asked to testify against his former boss. all those stories and more when

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breaking news this afternoon, a grand jury in nevada charged six republicans who claimed to be president electors in 2020 and who submitted paperwork that falsely claimed that donald trump won the state's presidential election. these charges mean nevada is now the third state where republican officials have been charged in connection with false electors for donald trump. also to date in wisconsin, a group of ten republicans who signed paperwork falsely claiming they were electors donald trump have agreed to withdraw their filings and acknowledge that joe biden won

the presidential election in 2020. according to "the washington post," wednesday's civil settlement marks the first time pro-trump electors have agreed to revoke their false filings and not repeat their actions in the next presidential election. it is a remarkable contrast to th ex-president now running for president for a third time who still insists that the election was stolen and whose relationship with the people who aided and abetted him is under scrutiny. special counsel jack smith wrote the ex-president sent his supporters to the capitol with the explicit criminal objective of obstructing the certification of joe biden's presidential victory. we're back with joyce, matt and jason. joyce, what does it mean for trump big picture legally, that all these developments are happening with state electors? >> right. this upped lines what we're

seeing in the filing you're referring to from jack smith. this is the notice he's required to file that lays out some of his evidence in an effort to give the defendant notice and bring the court into the loop on what to expect. it's now clear, now that we have this window into what jack smith's thinking is, it's that the evidence regarding the fake slates of electors helps to prove that donald trump was part of a deliberate, knowing plan to try to interfere on multiple fronts with the outcome of the 2020 election including the schemes we now see state charges on. the state charges in nevada are very interesting. each of the six republicans charged there, they're charged with two counts. they're related to developing this scheme that involved filing of false documents saying they were electors. there were news reports last week that fulton county defendant, kenneth chesebro who has pled guilty to fani willis' charges that he was speaking

with prosecutors in nevada. the reason that's important is because cheese borrow's owners mails confirm he was one of the architects of the fake electorate scheme. he drafted the papers, sent them out to at least seven states with directions on how they should be filed. he goes out and talks to folks in nevada and now we see these indictments. he's also told prosecutors in a proffer session that he met with trump personally in the oval office in late december. it will be interesting to see how much further his evidence goes and how he's able to tie trump to these schemes if he can. >> you have this stark contrast where you have the ex-ppt on the campaign trail falsely saying 2020 was stolen, and you've got his supporters getting charged and having to admit that it was not, in fact. >> what i'm amazed at is any

accountability is great accountability. bravo to those who held those fake electors accountable and i guess forced some admission of fact in wisconsin on this. this is akin to somebody who organizes a bank ob by and has a series of people and says, i want you to go in the bank and act like fake customers. right now we're prosecuting the fake customers, but not the people who organized the bank robbery, stole the money, laundered the money and continue to be in hiding in the course of this. yes, hold these folks accountable, but we still haven't fully held accountable -- i know we're attempting to, to do that with donald trump. we haven't held the infrastructure of the bank robbery accountable. >> you have set a new bar for analogies, my friend. that was fantastic. it strikes me in the case of wisconsin, not only do they need to say we're sorry for what we did and we admit we're wrong,

but also, we promise not to do it again. so often i think it's easy to think about this is something happening in the rear view when the threat is very much before us. >> the best part about this, and in all honesty this is what i hope for heading into 2024, is that this has had a chilling effect. trump's conspiracy in 2020 wasn't because he and elites were coming up with crazy plans and a law school cipher of this isteal the election. it was hundreds of men and women saying i can do this, this will make trump happy. now we're seeing regular people saying, oh, my gosh, i'm going to face legal consequences. i don't have $300,000. trump is not raising any money for any of the people going down for what he inspired them to do. if i'm a regular trump supporter in wisconsin, georgia, i can't

do this anymore. i know he's not going to protect me and i can't face the consequences. >> joyce vance, matt down, jason johnson, thank you. when we return, there are 150 names on the witness list in fulton county. one of those names is the man second in line to the presidency. that story after a quick break. presidency that story after a quick break t! so now, do you have a driver's license? oh. what did you get us? with the click of a pen, you can a new volkswagen at the sign, then drive event. hurry in to lease a new 2023 all-electric id.4 for zero down, zero deposit, zero first month's payment, and zero due at signing. limited inventory available.

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county election interference case. vormer vice president mike pence could be called to testify. the "atlanta journal constitution" reporting that pence is a long list of former trump administrati oicials who could be potential witnesses. among the names prosecutors have included on their almost 200-person witness list, former vice president mike pence, ex-attorney general bill barr, one-time justice department officials jeffrey rosen and richard donohue, scott perry of pennsylvania and steve bannon, former aide to former president donald trump. joining our conversation, "atlanta journal constitution" political reporter greg bluestein, former u.s. attorney and current msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade and writer at large for the bulwark and msnbc political analyst tim miller. tim, tell us more about your reporting, all the possible witnesses in this case. >> reporter: this is basically a who's who of donald trump's

world. nearly 200 names on the witness list, including some of the names you mentioned. also two would-be fake electors here in georgia, and a number of mainstream republican leaders in georgia who pushed back on donald trump's effort to overturn the election. that list includes brian governor kemp, secretary of state antony blinken brad raffensperger, chris carr and jeff duncan. it's not just trump world, it's also some of the mainstream republicans who fought his efforts to undermine the georgia election. >> we have a sense of what pence offered the in the election subversion case. pence offered harrowing details about how, in the wake of the 2020 presidential election, then president donald trump surrounded himself with, quote, crank attorneys, espoused un-american legal theories and almost pushed the country toward a constitutional crisis according to sources familiar with what pence told investigators. the sources said pence also told

investigators he's sure that in the days before january 6th, 2021 when a violent mob tried to stop congress from vert phiing the election, he informed trump he still hadn't seen evidence of significant election fraud. trump was unmoved, continuing to claim the election was stolen and acting recklessly on that tragic day. given that context, barb, what is it that mike pence could provide in georgia? >> alicia, it's essentially the same evidence in georgia he would provide in the federal case. fani willis didn't put mike pence in the grand jury. i can see why she might not have wanted to do that, because of all the obstacles it would take. mike pence was the one alone in the room with donald trump during some of these conversations, so only he can provide that first-hand, non-hearsay testimony about what happened. it's so important to proving donald trump's criminal intent in this case.

while it may be very significant that mike pence is on that list, it's not surprising he's an essential witness here. i don't see how she tries the case without him. >> here is the thing. it's significant legally and also politically, thanks to greg's reporting. there's a multitude of republicans who are likely to testify in the georgia case. pence would be the highest ranking republican. take a listen to what he has said about fraud in georgia. >> frankly, there's no idea more un-american than the notion that any one person can choose which votes to count for the american presidency. despite what the former president and his allies have said now for more than two and a half years and continue to insist to this very hour, the georgia election was not stolen, and i had no right to overturn the election on january 6th. >> so you have some georgia republicans testifying, mike perns testifying. how does that then scramble trump's claim that all this is a

partisan witch hunt? >> scrambles it quite a bit. i'll defer to barbara's expertise on the legal ramifications on a georgia trial. but it looks like he's going to be the nominee for the republican party. it is fascinating to think that he would be running in a state, a key state he would probably need to win if he were to win the presidency again and have major officials, republican elected officials within the state and his own vice president, his own attorney general, testifying against him in the same state about his attempts to steal that election the last time. to me, the thing that becomes the most fascinating in all this is how can you, if you're mike pence or bill barr, testify truthfully to fani willis about donald trump's efforts to overturn the election. they both testified that to the january 6th committee. so we know what they're going to say in broad strokes. how can you do that and then go out and endorse donald trump's

presidential campaign? it doesn't make sense. the two don't work together. i think that's a fascinating political question that will have real ramifications, as greg knows, for a key swing vote group which is atlanta suburban, former republicans, maybe voted for brian kemp but went for joe biden last time. i think pence and the others that are testifying have sway with that key swing group. >> greg, i'm going to come back to you on the politics on this. i have one more legal question. looking at this list, pence, bashgs rosen, donohue, perry. there are many, many more. who here poses the greatest threat to donald trump's defense? >> frankly, i think it's mike pence. all these other witnesses will talk about some of the conversations they had with him legally about investigations, about whether there was or wasn't fraud. it's pence who alone was in the room and had the conversations with him. remember there was the exchange that went something like wouldn't it be cool, mike, if

you could be the one who decides who gets to be the next president. because mike pence was the only one in the room who heard that, i think he's the most crucial witness and frankly the most damaging. for four years he was trump's most loyal deputy. for him to turn coat and say these are the facts, this is the truth, i think will be very persuasive with the jury. >> given all that, i want you to pick up on what tim offered us, the politics happening in georgia and the timeline that means we're up against. i know you're watching the d.a.'s office very closely. what do you expect to see or hear next? any sense of an official trial date? >> one more thing about pence, too, in terms of his testimony, there's an entering wring curveball. the atlanta georgia constitutional reported several senior republican georgia officials wanted to hand deliver a letter, asking him to delay joe biden's victory in congress. one of them is burt jones. they say the letter was never

delivered. pence could shed light on that as well. in terms of the next steps for the ill troo, georgia is one of the premier battlegrounds in the state. republicans see this state as a must-win in order to defeat joe biden next year. we're looking at a proposed trial date of august of 2024. of course, donald trump's team is pushing back vigorously saying it would amount to election interference if that trial date was set so close to next year's election. >> i'm sure you saw yesterday that jim jordan is going to open an investigation into cooperation between fani willis and the 1/6 select committee. nicolle asked liz cheney to react to that when she was on the program. >> there's no question that jim jordan has something to hide, probably a lot to hide. if you go back and you look at, for example, the phone records as well as what he has said himself about his discussions and his conversations with donald trump on the 6th, the

very significant role that he played in the lead-up to that, he was clearly one of the master minds in terms of helping to facilitate donald trump's efforts to overturn the election and, of course, refused to comply with the select committee's subpoenas. >> tim, your thoughts, cheney saying jordan has something to hide? >> she's obviously right. we saw the embarrassing interview where jim jordan couldn't say what he talked to donald trump about in all those phone calls in the lead-up to january 6th, on january 6th. she called out mike johnson by name, kevin mccarthy. she's been absolutely stalwart on this, calling out her former colleagues. i think what jim jordan is doing, going after fani willis, part of this is political, part is trying to create a distraction. i think it's important just to speak about the merits. it's a preview of what happens if trump wins again. the united states congress thinking they can interfere in a

local election is totally inappropriate, totally unacceptable. it's not just jim jordan. you had one calling fani willis a racist. obviously donald trump is doing that. yes, he has something to hide, but what we're seeing out in the open is jim jordan showing us what a donald trump administration would look like which is targeting of political foes rg, targeting of enemies, not respecting to rule of law. >> tim miller, greg bluestein, barbara mcquade, thank you so much for spending time with us. when we return, single-handedly standing in the way of hundreds of military promotions wasn't enough, tommy tuberville is still at it, blocking 11 four star generals from moving up the chain of command. what democrats are doing about that after a short break.

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stop typing, and start talking. it could be a medical condition called peyronie's disease, or pd. and it could be treated without surgery. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today. there's been absolutely no negotiation from my democratic colleagues or the biden administration. i've had a brief phone call a couple times with the secretary of defense, no negotiations at all. you would think if they were really concerned about our military in a trying time in which we have all over the world which they have created, that they would have called me, let's talk about this, let's work it out. >> irony may, in fact, be dead. that was alabama senator tuberville earlier today

accusing democrats of not caring about the military over his own blockade of military promotions over the defense department's abortion policy. that blockade ended yesterday for the most part. more than 400 promotions confirmed in one single vote. after senator fuber ville relented, he said, it s pretty much a draw, they didn't get what they wanted, we didn't get what they wanted. as if it was just a game. tuberville is holding up the promotion of nearly a dozen four-star generals. with me founder of veterans of american and host of the independent americans podcast, paul rykoff. wow. wow. another installment of this week stupid starring tummy tubberville. stunning display for the entire world to see. the stupid has gotten more narrow because he's within

defeated he's within rolled by people in his own party. by veterans groups, by former secretaries of defense, my media. he's been forced to back down because schumer would have pushed to it a vote. now he's narrowed it down to only -- which are still senior leaders that are going to command leaders in times of military conflicts he's narrowed his focus, but it's detrimental to our security as ever before. >> what did he get? >> nothing. he got made famous for being ridiculous and undermining our national security. i think he hurt his own party. i think maybe he jockeyed for favor among his own party. maybe he's trying curry favor with trump. he's impacting recruiting, retention. -- blocking a female admiral

because she did something like promote women in the military. it's narrowed but as extreme and reckless as ever before. >> the damage that that does, it's hard to measure, but i have to imagine that it lasts. >> it does. i mean, it drives people out of the military, forces people to retire early, encourages people to just not join because they might get caught in this political cross fire. we're focusing on this instead of supporting ukraine, while ukrainians are dying in the mud to fight putin. we're not focusing on israel and gaza, we're not focusing at domestic threats here at home or even the border. we're focusing on this because he's engaged in an extremely radical crusade. it's never happened before, and it should never happen gun and

it's one guy who's caused it. >> you mentioned this is something of a coming playbook. they're hold up three three-star nominations. it doesn't seem they have learned their lesson. >> they've spread out the targets maybe and they're picking their spots rather than holding a big group. they're trying to make political examples out of people which is damaging. let's make it clear, they're opposing them because they think they're too woke because they support adversity. >> and a body that relies on diversity. >> you have a female who supported other women in the community, said there should be more women in command. that's a consensus not just in america but against the world, but they're trying to wage the war because it feeds that extreme wing of the gop senate

in particular that doesn't care. it's the worst a kind of politics we see in 2023. >> thank you for spending time with us. quick break for us. we're going to be right back. e k ♪very much so. just trade in ) that old phone.♪ ♪get a free 5g phone, tablet, and watch.♪ (wife) you really just should have done that. (carolers all) ♪mom is mad. this plan has backfired.♪ (vo) for a limited time, trade in any samsung phone in any condition for a galaxy s23+, watch6, and tab s9 fe. all on us. that's up to $1800 in value. only on verizon.

one last bit of news before we go. yesterday nicolle was back, one day, one day only, to interview former congresswoman liz cheney. just one day after the release of cheney's memoir "oath and honor". it is a top selling off the book list. it's proven so popular it's currently out of stock on amazon, but the company says they're still taking orders and working to get copies to customers before the holidays. if you need any more convincing to get your hands on the book, liz cheney is going to join ari melber on "the beat." quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back.

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thank you as always for spending part of your day with us. we are is grateful. beat beat with ari melber starts right now. >> thank you so much. i want to tell people up front we're still tracking this shooting today. we'll have more on that important story later in the newscast. we begin right now, though, with a special guest tonight. liz cheney, the former congresswoman and vice chair of the january 6th committee speaking out in a new book. she is back in the news as one of our former colleagues in congress is pushing today for what he calls probing the january 6th probe while another ousted speaker mccarthy says he's leaving congress. there's also today new indictments related to trump's fraudulent electors spot in a new state, nevada. we're going to get to all of th