that left for black americans. a family deal input poverty and good times. a successful couple and that jefferson's. >> how can you afford to live in a place like this? you ain't tall enough to beat in a basketball player? >> reporter: a vocal opponent of the religious right in the 80s, lear created a nonprofit called people for the american way. >> don't tell us prepared questions -- the american. by >> reporter: age never slowed him down. in his mid 90s, he rebooted a classic series, one day at a time, with a lieutenant family. i spoke with him in 2021. >> -- anybody has had any business ever, and i've loved. it >> reporter: today, all and the family star rob reiner pay tribute. i love norman lear with all my heart. he was my second father. and from judd apatow, norman lear changed the world. joe fire, nbc news.

and luckily, we will never ever forget the great norman lear. on that note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i'll see you again tomorrow. california congressman kevin mccarthy the shortest serving speaker of the house in over 140 years is ending his extraordinary 2023 by throwing in the towel. >> now it is time to pursue my passion in the new arena. while i'll be departing the house at the end of this year, i will never, ever give up fighting for this country that i love so much. >> if you blinked, you might have missed mr. mccarthy's ten

month term as the country's highest republican elected official, and that's not just because it was so short. it was entirely unproductive. mccarthy bargained away basically everything to when the speaker's gavel and he got nothing in return for it. that is the lesson for people who court the far right who do the bidding of donald trump, look the other way. and right now republicans all across the country are learning that lesson. remember trump's fake electors plot in the 2020 election? the coordinated effort to get fake slates of electors to cast pretend electoral votes for donald trump? well, those fake electors cause played those dramas in seven states. they got nothing for it and they are now the subject of some very real investigations. in georgia, fani willis has charged three of the 16 fake electors in that state as part of her conspiracy case against donald trump.

in michigan, 16 fake electors have been charged by the states attorney general. one of them is already cooperating with prosecutors. today, in nevada a grand jury announced that it has indicted six of nevada's fake electors. all of those cases are making a way through the courts. and in the state of wisconsin, we finally got something we have not yet seen. accountability. today, donald trump's ten republican fake electors from the state of wisconsin officially agreed to settle a lawsuit over their election forgery. those ten republican fake electors have agreed to withdraw their fake documents, they have agreed to acknowledge that joe biden won the 2020 presidential election three years later. and they have all agreed to never serve as presidential electors in any election where donald trump is on the ballot. so all of that is meaningful and it is long overdue. but it is also very clarifying.

because as part of that settlement in wisconsin, we have also learned new details about what that fake electors plot looked like behind the scenes. and those details are damning, especially for republicans, especially for donald trump. in one set of text exchanges, one of the fake electors refers to the whole plot as a possible steal. as in what we are trying to do is steal an election. specifically while discussing the logistics of the plot, the fake elector says, they don't want to have a technicality mess up the possible steal. and then in case you are wondering, the fake elector then clarifies that by saying they, they mean the republican party of wisconsin and trump's lawyers. okay just to be clear.

another person on the text chain asked how do you feel about all of this? that same fake elector replies, i feel like i have to do it otherwise there will be a target on my back in my own district. cut it to the trump line otherwise, sound familiar kevin mccarthy? and this wisconsin settlement, it is clear that the trump team and the national republican party were all over this fake electors plot, in ways that we truly did not understand. here is another text message from a wisconsin republican party insider. on a phone call with rudy g. he saying to all the states, no heads up to any media on electors meetings. rudy g says no request for's electors certification, got that? and another exchange, another elector says apparently ken chesebro is inviting himself to this thing. sure enough, these new pictures show trump lawyer slash skunk at the garden party ken chesebro in the room overseeing the fake electors plot in washington, snapping pictures like it was a birthday party and not a coordinated attempt to overthrow democracy.

the trump team was apparently so involved in this plot in wisconsin that they provided private security to the fake electors as they gather together to pretend certify votes for donald trump. so today we are finally seeing the consequences here for all of this. there are settlements, there are statements, there are investigations, there are trial dates. all of these things are finally happening and none of it looks particularly good for donald trump and his allies. the more we learn about these plots and players across the country, the more we see how directly team trump appears to have been involved. which is why today in georgia we learned that fulton county district attorney fani willis plans to call some of trump's inner circle to the witness stand in her case against donald trump. that includes trump's vice president mike pence, his former attorney general bill barr and his former current strategist steve bannon. called to the witness stand to

testify under oath. joining me now is andrew weissmann, former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel and co-host of the indispensable msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump. andrew, thank you for being here. i see the names bill barr, i see the names mike pence, steve bannon and my first question is, how realistic is it that we are actually gonna see these folks on the witness stand out in georgia? >>, while i am less interested in georgia because there is no trial date. so it is realistic that they would be called when there is a trial date and if there is a trial date before the election. if it is after the election -- >> there is no chance. >> it's really a question of who is going to win that election. but i do think the real question for those three is whether they will be called in the federal case. and there mike pence for sure will be a witness.

i think like bill barr as well will be a witness. regardless of the baggage and they do have significant baggage in terms of their toeing the line for the trump administration, in many ways that makes them better witnesses in terms of their credibility. and as i've said about mike pence, he is sort of a really devastating witness it and also an exhibit. xhib because you can't compare somebody who had the exact same interest as donald trump was on the ballot, who had every interest if there was fraud in the election to say it, who is modeling what you do in this country when you lose. this is like what parents, or any normal parent's teaching a child, which is if you lose that's it, it's over, you take your bumps and you go home. exactly. so i think he will be quite a strong witness. i think the same is true with bill barr, especially given so much a much he did for donald trump and certainly i and other

people in the mueller investigation were very aware of how much he did. but there was a line he was not willing to cross. >> given the scope of what we now know in the last few days. jack smith elected to bring in this case, the federal trial presumably in march. i would assume some former justice official, justice department officials are gonna be on his list for witnesses as well as they are on fani willis 's list. i did not realize because i did not go to law school that if you are even a former doj official, you need the approval of the present day justice department in order to testify. that and awkward position for merrick garland to be in? given how desperate trump's had to have a through line between the biden, the justice department in the federal investigation? >> i don't think so because it's so relatively automatic. this is not something where yes, you do need to have approval under something called it to be

rags -- >> i knew it was going to be a garcia, there was going to be some kind of legal reference point. >> yes exactly. but it is not that hard. it is also the kind of thing that merrick garland could delegate. he could say i'm going to give it to and a political, meeting a non political member of the department to make that decision. and a case like this, would always be granted. what you are really trying to do is avoid someone getting called or is harassing or there is just no relevance. but here, could you really imagine mike pence or jeffrey rosen the acting attorney general doesn't have relevant information, and they've already testified before congress, so we know what they are going to say in large part, so of course they will be given permission. of course, donald trump will use all of this, but this is one where you just have to ignore that. >> i would argue a lot of it can be ignored because it's all political, almost all political.

i do want to get your reaction to these fake electors plots being effectively dismantled all over the country. there is the actual legal nuts and bolts of jack smith's legal arguments here. but the here is the court of public opinion, to see the state a. g.'s or the civil suits and in settlements, and in admissions if not wrongdoing, fraud saying joe biden is actually the winner of this. we never should've done this, this was a fake electors plot and nothing else. how meaningful is that for jack smith as we barrel towards that march 4th date? >> i think that's a great question because i was thinking about sort of how to explain this. when you think about big picture, the big picture is you have ten electors who said what we did was wrong, we are not real electors that joe biden won. that we were told to sign up only as a contingency. this was not going to be advanced unless or until there was constant supreme court ruled in our favor and we were misled. so that's just the big picture, a good thing for the public to

know, because we are in this state of the world where two-plus-two doesn't equal four -- >> to have fake electors themselves say this was a steel is meaningful. >> exactly. now on a legal front, i think one of the more relevant things that shed out to mary mccord, because she was one of the lead lawyers in the civil case. that's what she does when she's not working on this podcast. >> it's a full-time job that podcast. he >> just be serious, this is such an important case because you have ten people who are saying they will fully cooperate, who are saying that we were misled by? people in the trump campaign. and you know who the chief person is? chesebro. >> he is in the room with them andrew. i was shocked to see him, by the way mast in a room as the fake electors to the fake

certification taking photos. you cannot have the more direct engagement than that. >> yes, just to be clear there is a defense here for people oh i didn't think i was a fake elector, i thought i was a contingent elector, which is if the supreme court of the state had said we are now real, then the election was actually for trump, and we were ready. that is sort of the defense to a criminal charge. chesebro doesn't have that, because he was going to use these electors no matter what, and you know one of the ways we know that? on the 14th of december there was constant supreme court rules against trump and says this is frivolous, and on the 15th, kenneth chesebro saying let's use this. this orchestrates getting this

to washington so it can be used even though the wisconsin supreme court has said you lost. >> in defiance of the court. >> exactly. so that is blatant on his part. >> the fact that the trump campaign is supplying security here, the fact that rudy giuliani is literally directing them not to have press in the room for these fake costume certifications if you will, that all seems like damning evidence directly connecting state level plots to overturn the election, or the results of the election, to trump hq. if you are jack smith, as you probably know all of this anyway. i would imagine it strengthens your hand. do you imagine that some of this material is gonna come up in his case? >> absolutely. what he is going to do is share that this was an orchestrated scheme from headquarters. in other words, it's coming from washington. this was not grown up from the

states seeing that there was something wrong happening. in fact in nevada where we just saw criminal indictments, there wasn't even a lawsuit at the time so they basically, the charges they manufactured that, so they could say well we are doing this because there is this lawsuit. that was the cart before the horse. so that is going to be definitely part of the march trial that jack smith has orchestrated. >> what it feels like is that is if the walls are closing in? or the three dimensions are meeting? you have this state level investigations and trials and settlementse, you have the federal investigation looming in the not so distant future, and then you have the prosecution over the d. a.'s office in fulton county. there is a lot of overlap in these three arenas. and we know that trump's team down in georgia is asking to have access to some of jack smith's material up in washington, d. c..

the georgia folks for trump say we need access to it, we may subpoena it. what is the likelihood the law to see more of an exchange of material between what's happening in georgia and what's happening in washington given the sort of common threads of those two things? >> so, i think that there is no question that jack smith is going to want to give to the defense in the federal case everything that is relevant, anything that has potential exculpatory, anything that is potentially impeaching, i'm sure fani willis will want to do the same thing. that is required under the local rules, and due process. it doesn't matter that is donald trump or john doe or andrew weissmann. that is what a defendant is entitled to. that kind of crossover i think you will see. i also think there is an enormous overlap already in terms of the information that both districts, the federal and the state have. but to be fair, donald trump is going to have that because he

is a defendant in both, so he may get it in the federal case. it's not like he is going to be suddenly gonna wonder what's happening in the federal case. he knows that as well. but for the moment i think the key thing because there's no trial in georgia, the thing i'm really focusing on is the d. c. case, do they have all the discovery, is there anything that could possibly delay that case? >> and actually, can you answer that? i myself was very interested in these pending decisions of the d. c. circuit court over presidential immunity. i know you dedicate a lot of your podcasts to it. do you foresee any major speed bumps. i shouldn't say speed bumps because that's diminishes the severity, the gravity of it. but do you see challenges in the road ahead for judge chutkan as she tries to keep the train on the tracks because as you say, this federal case in d. c. may be the last best shot to hold trump accountable for january six? >> and for the public to have access to and see all the

evidence and to assess that before the election. so two thoughts. one is i do think the d. c. circuit will act quickly. the big unknown which i can't answer is the supreme court of the united states, whether they have enough votes to issue a stay. i will hazard a guess that because i think the presidential immunity claim is so weak here, it's hard to see that there are gonna be enough votes to say that we are going to stay this case. part of that is that i think judge chutkan is doing something very smart. by starting the jury selection essentially now, she is making sure that the appellate courts, the d. c. circuit and the supreme court understand, you can't just turn around and say now you can start. getting a jury takes months. so if you start putting this trial off, it's not like the jurors just wait in the wings. she may have to start all over again which will be a de facto

pushing off until after the election, and i don't think, although this is a guess that there will be enough votes on the supreme court to have that happen. >> i see you kind of almost closed your eyes as you made a prediction about the roberts court. >> yes. >> i think that's what everyone does at this point. we don't think they are that crazy. >> because you feel in your heart more than you think it's so important to the nation to have the trial. >> yes without question and this court is somewhat predictable unpredictable. we will see. andrew weissmann, it is a pleasure and a thrill and an honor to have you want to set my friend. it was full of platitudes. and praise. thank you andrew. coming up, it is fight night in the state of alabama. four presidential republican candidates took to the debate stage and tried to stay on it. plus, kevin mccarthy is leaving congress. he says that in his brief time

as speaker, he, quote, rose to the challenge and did the right thing. which sounds exactly like what kevin mccarthy thinks of kevin mccarthy. congressman jamie raskin joins me to weigh in on all of that. that's coming up next. with this tomorrow. you won't. it's ripe in here. my eyes are watering. look how crusty this is. ugh, it's just too much. not with this. good advice. when stains and odors pile up, it's got to be tide. i got this $1,000 camera for only $41 on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer

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bragged to reporters, i never quit? today that man called it quits. with more than half his term remaining. and when he quit, he said this. >> thank you from the bottom of my heart. we did our part. and when the stakes were the highest, we rose to the challenge. we were willing to risk it all, no matter the odds, no matter the personal cost. simply put, we did the right

thing. >> simply put, we did the right thing. that is kevin mccarthy's legacy according to kevin mccarthy. kevin mccarthy's legacy according to the facts involves normalizing an attempted coup and bargaining away the dignity of the speakership. perhaps the most consequential thing he did was not even a speaker. a few weeks after the insurrection on the capitol, mccarthy traveled out to mar-a-lago to have dinner with donald trump. in so doing, mccarthy effectively brought donald trump into the good graces of the party and set the stage for his political comeback. in her new book, liz cheney explains why kevin mccarthy made that fateful trip. the truth was pretty simple. kevin mccarthy went to mar-a-lago because his ability to raise money had dried up after january 6th. haven't needed money. trump had a list of small

dollar donors, but trump kevin would have to go big trump for them. in order to use those lists, kevin enough to help donald trump cover up the stain of his assault on our democracy. it was a price kevin mccarthy was willing to pay. joining me now is congressman jamie raskin, democrat from maryland, former member of the january six committee and ranking member of the house oversight committee. congressman raskin thank you so much for being here tonight. i wonder what you make of kevin mccarthy's closing words about his legacy, when the stakes were the highest, we rose to the challenge, simply put, we did the right thing. what do you think of those? >> he clearly did the wrong thing and when the stakes were the highest, he completely fell apart, and the only part i agree with is when he said i risked it all, which is true if all means our democracy, our constitution and the american republic. this is a guy who called donald trump from his office on

january 6th, which was besieged with insurrectionists and begged trump to call off the dogs he had unleashed on them and trump, true to form said those are not my people that's antifa, and mccarthy knew they weren't, and he said no these are your people mr. president. trump said to him, maybe they just care more about a fair election than you do kevin. and unlike liz cheney and adam kinzinger and eight other house republicans who also lived through that experience who voted to impeach trump for inciting and leading that insurrection, kevin mccarthy just put his tails between his legs and voted no. he did briefly blame it on trump saying that trump had to take responsibility for it, but within days as liz says in her book, was like a puppy dog clamoring for more money down in mar-a-lago. he showed no backbone, he showed no courage and he said well rather than impeach and support the trial of donald

trump, he would support an independent outside 9/11 style commission made up of five republicans, five democrats with equal subpoenaing power on both sides. our negotiator, bennie thompson, agreed to that, even though we were a majority in the house. he said fine, we'll do it 50/50, five republicans, five democrats. and then when trump told mccarthy told mccarthy no there will be no investigation january 6th, mccarthy withdrew his own proposal and opposed his own proposal and then tried to sabotage the house select committee which nancy pelosi set up in the absence of a bipartisan, independent outside investigation. and then later after biden was elected, although he couldn't bring himself to support the impeachment of donald trump for inciting a violent insurrection, which almost got even kevin mccarthy killed, he decided to support an impeachment investigation against joe biden

for nothing, without even identifying a potential crime. so simply said, good riddance to him. he did nothing for his country or his constitution at its moment of crisis. >> you mention the house impeachment investigation into joe biden, and i believe house republicans are preparing for an official vote on that next week. do you have an expectation as to what is going to come of that? and is there anything democrats should prepare to do in advance of it? >> well, remember that all the republicans do now is fratricidal, internescent warfare and expulsions and impeachments and resignations and censure motions and that's what it's come to.

it's an utterly cannibalistic group of people there. so they are going after joe biden after ten months of an investigation which has produced overwhelming evidence that there is no crime, much less a crime at the level of high crime and misdemeanor under the constitution. they can't even identify what they are looking for any more. it is completely a theater of the absurd. i have to get every republican. we know congressman ken buck who is a serious lawyer who was head of the criminal division of the u.s. attorneys division in colorado is totally opposed to. and he's looked at it and he knows that they're not alleging a crime against joe biden and there's no evidence. so whatever you say about hunter biden, he's not president of the united states and has never been a public official and he's already got a special counsel dealing with his case. so there is nothing there. the serious lawyers know that.

we believe that there are more than a dozen republicans in biden districts who will be thinking very hard about casting this vote. it could be a career terminating event for them if they get pulled into it. the problem is, the republicans have nothing else going on and i want to continue to build their political house of cards on an absolute mirage and an illusion. >> when you talk about become so obsessed with the merit of, the investigation of the investigation that it sort of defies anything i have seen in my very long lifetime here. i am astounded to see that jim jordan is now launching an investigation into fani willis 's communications and sort of if you will document sharing with the january 6th committee. you are on the january 6th committee. i'm sure you've been following what's happening in fulton

county, as we all have. what do you imagine jim jordan is going to find when he looks into the relationship between the fulton county d. a.'s office and the january 6th committee? >> we'll, if they get some documents of course, it will reveal what took place, i will assume because i wasn't involved in it, is what takes place every single day all over the country. which is different law enforcement entities and prosecutors share information that they have. it's not that shocking, but of course jim jordan who by the way still has not responded to our subpoena and has violated our subpoena and would've been held in contempt of congress if we had had some more time. but in any event, jim jordan has decided that he is going to use the congressional investigative powers to go after state and local law enforcement and federal law enforcement if they interfere

with his guru master donald trump. so it's an utterly lawless situation where they elevate one guy, who of course has been found guilty of sexual assault in civil court in new york, defaming the woman he sexually assaulted and found guilty in civil court in new york of committing civil fraud and inflating the values of his different real estate properties. 92 federal states felony charges against him. they want to elevate him above the rule of law, so they will attack any prosecutor, any law enforcement official, any cop they think gets in his way. just like they didn't care about 150 capital officers in d. c. metropolitan police to department officers who were bloodied, wounded and hospitalized by the insurrectionists who donald trump sent to capitol hill, according to the department of justice this week.

so we are looking at a party which the way most authoritarian parties do, describes itself as pro law and order actually wrapping itself around criminality. and if you look at the people donald trump's pardoning, from dinesh d'souza to michael flynn to roger stone, the inner circle of his political campaign are criminals who he has pardoned. >> congressman jamie raskin putting it all into perspective. thank you for your time tonight, it's great to have you on the program. >> thank you alex. >> coming up later this hour. onstage bullying is apparently the republican debate strategy of the hour. my friend and colleague jen psaki joins me to break all of that down. and later, freed hostages are furious with benjamin netanyahu over his war strategy in gaza. what happened inside their meeting is coming up. meeting is coming up. >>ought

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enforcement officials gave the first real details about the shooting at the university of nevada in las vegas this afternoon. police confirmed three victims of today's shooting have died. one more victim remains hospitalized. earlier today that victim was in critical condition. but they have since been upgraded to stable. multiple others have been taken to hospitals for panic attacks caused by today's shooting.

the police also confirmed that they know the identity of the shooter and confirmed that the shooter is also deceased. police are not releasing any information about the shooter until the shooter's next of kin is notified. now three law enforcement sources tell nbc tonight that the suspect in question was a man in his 60s. we have no indication yet of the suspect's motive. we also do not yet know what kind of gun was used in today's attack. police so far have declined to comment. but we do know that at 11:45 am local time this morning, the shooter started an attack on the fourth floor of a building at the university of nevada las vegas. the shooter went to multiple other floors, before being confronted by police outside of the building where the shooter ultimately died. now just hours before that unfolded, democrats on capitol hill introduced a new assault

weapons ban in the senate. and here is the republican response. >> americans have a constitutional right to own a firearm. every day people across wyoming responsibly use their second amendment rights to keep and to bear arms. today is about defending those rights against those on the other side of the aisle who wish to take them away from us. >> republican senator john barrasso's objection blocked the democrats unanimous consent motion to pass the first assault weapons ban since the last one expired in the year 2004. it was one of three pieces of gun reform legislation blocked by republicans in the senate today, just hours before that shooter in las vegas. and if you are wondering what the odds are that gun reform legislation will be blocked by republicans on the same day as a mass shooting, well unfortunately the odds are very, very high. >> so far, our nation has

experienced this year 630 mass shootings. now this is day number 340 in the year 2023. so 340 days, 630 mass shootings. that's nearly as many, twice as many mass shootings as we've seen days. >> just last friday, there was another mass shooting in las vegas. that day five men were shot at a homeless encampment about 20 minutes from today's shooting. and one of the witnesses of that mass shooting on friday was also a witness to today's mass shooting. >> i mean, they just shot the five homeless people over there on charleston a week ago and i was in the parking lot over there and i was there when it

happened because i was on my way to work. this i was just getting coffee and i just saw people running everywhere. you know, it was a matter of time. >> it was a matter of time. there was so many mass shootings in america that the odds are not even that incredible that you can witness one or two in a single week. there are so many mass shootings in america that republicans could have objected to gun reform legislation any day this year and odds are, there would've been a mass shooting on the same day. that is how common these are and republicans still refuse to do anything about it. still ahead tonight. republican presidential hopefuls look to the debate stage for the fourth time this cycle. msnbc's janet psaki joins me to preview what happened on that stage and whether any of the candidates has a fighting

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there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards.

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actually hire greg gunfeld to host a democratic debate? they would not do it. so, the fact that the matter is, essentially about you in the media, the corrupt media establishment, and i speak at the trump russia collusion hoax that he pushed on this network for years. was that real or hillary clinton made up disinformation? answer the question, go. [applause] >> that was vivek ramaswamy, a man running to be the republican nominee for president of the united states, going after the moderator at the last republican debate, our own, kristen welker, from nbc. we saw more of the same this evening, as the republican presidential field minus donald trump, publicly sparred once again during their fourth and final debate at this year. joining me now is my friend and colleague, jen psaki, former white house press secretary and host of msnbc's inside with jen psaki. jen, thank you for being here, they're key for watching this debate, so that we did not have to. >> you're welcome for that. >> it is a national service that you are doing us all. what has been happening?

i have been getting troops and drabs during the commercial break, and it sounds, if possible, even uglier than the last two debates? >> that is right, alex. you just put a clip from a month ago, where we all watched and thought, wow, this is going off the rails. it's a little obnoxious and rude. this debate tonight i think made the last one look like it was just hockey dory, and everybody was holding hands and singing kumbaya to each other. a couple of things i observed from it, one is vivek ramaswamy, he took every single glove off, more than he has in the past, and he was downright nasty at times, at nikki haley in particular. he called her a fascist. he said that she was corrupt. he went after her again and again. what does that tell you, and also ron desantis is one that the nikki haley. that tells you that nikki haley is the one that they all think that will be all of them and be

the alternative to trump, that is what it tells you. chris christie actually went after trump more than anybody else, not a ton but went after him more, and he called out some of these attacks, including from vivek ramaswamy against nikki haley during the debate, as well. there was a crazy moment, i mean, there are a lot of crazy things into the bay, but vivek ramaswamy actually said that january six was an inside job, which we should not miss a moment like that, right? in all of the attacks, all of the political gamesmanship, some of the things set by these candidates, including the specifically, should be alarming to everyone. >> let's talk a little bit about the dynamic between nikki haley and the rest of the field. she has come out swinging in previous debates. that has helped her rise in the polls. that's made her in some circles, seen as the never trump, most viable never trump, that could potentially steal the baton from donald trump, though she is 45 points behind him.

how was she on the debate stage? >> pretty self controlled, i would say. she was getting absolutely pummeled by vivek ramaswamy, by ron desantis, parked over and over again about everything from who can be more anti-trans to how corrupt they say that she was, to whether she was soft on china and how much she was like joe biden and hillary clinton. there was a lot thrown at her. there were moments where she punch back, but there were moments where she was restrained. my bet is, she knows that she is on the up. she is climbing on the up. she is the far behind trump, as he said. it's a tricky path for her to actually be him, but in terms of the candidates on the stage, she is most on the on the rise. the most interesting moment was when chris christie came to her defense against vivek ramaswamy, talked about all her time and service. i don't know if that was the right thing to do, but it's hard to calculate exactly what he is trying to do there. >> yes, and it is not sure that nikki haley wants that from chris christie, right? >> i am not sure. it was kind of a nice moment,

but, yeah, she may or may not. she was kind of smiling, while he was doing. >> with friends like this, well, i think for nikki haley, it's a very careful line to trade. you've got to be sufficiently pro maga, but you don't want to be pro maga that you eliminate the never trumpers and chris christie. >> what they attacked her on, alex, no surprise, over and over again, we're the business ties and donors, as if she were a person that was now completely tied to them, because they know the maga base does not necessarily of that. >> yes, they would rather after governors fighting the biggest businesses in their state, the way that rod desantis does. jen psaki, my friend, i am sorry to our time is short. please come back and spend the whole hour with me whenever you can. i know you'll be hosting msnbc 's post-gop debate coverage attendee pm on the official

msnbc youtube channel, aka, the future. thank you, my friend. when we come back, still ahead tonight, what happened when prime minister netanyahu met with with recently freed hostages and their family members. we'll have all the details on that explosive meeting coming up next. i'm adding downy unstopables to my wash. now i'll be smelling fresh all day long. [sniff] still fresh. ♪♪ get 6x longer-lasting freshness, plus odor protection. try for under $5!

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vo: when you graduate, they graduate. visit finishyourdiploma.org to find free and supportive today marks some that they adult education centers near you. it's today marks -- have is fighting between israel of fighting between israel and hamas since the war began. israeli troops are now operating in the heart of khan younis, the main city in southern gaza. hundreds of thousands of palestinians, some of whom have fled to the area after being told it was a safe zone, are now being told to evacuate further south. the desperation in gaza has put pressure on prime minister netanyahu, who is being criticized both domestically and internationally. at a recent meeting of israel's war cabinet, newly-freed

hostages accused netanyahu of putting their lives in danger. in leaked audio recordings, one former hostage says, every day in captivity was extremely challenging. we were in tunnels, terrified that it would not be hamas but israel that would kill us, and then they would say, hamas killed you. another freed hostage, whose husband remains in captivity set to netanyahu, my husband was separated from us three days before we returned to israel, and he was taken to the tunnels. and you are talking about flooding the tunnels would see water? you are bombing tunnels exactly where they, the hostages, are located. in response, netanyahu offered, there is a substantial effort to gather evidence and reach everyone. the question is to how to bring everyone back. but those words were met with tackling. at one point, several family

members of the hostages shouted at netanyahu, repeatedly yelling the word, shame. meanwhile, president biden who has showed unparalleled support for israel and the crisis, has not spoken with netanyahu intended. this is the longest stretch of silence between the two leaders since october 7th. and in the arab world, protesters in bahrain, jordan and morocco have demanded that their governments cut ties with israel's. in egypt, protesters again gathered in the square, the birthplace of egypt's arab spring uprising. all of this has created significant destabilization, not just the humanitarian catastrophe in gaza but the political tension but throughout the region. as the new york times reports, the war in gaza has not only laid bare a chasm between many arab leaders and their people, it has my in a. that is our show for tonight. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. good evening, alex. we have three guests tonight, only three. i wish they would all join at the table to get. there is nancy pelosi, cassidy hutchins a