more important for him than anybody else. if you're nikki haley, you're trying to be maybe second in iowa, third in new hampshire, then go to your home state and hope to beat trump there. all of this is a pipe dream for all of these candidates, of how do they shoot the moon, to borrow a term, or what's the black swan event where they win the nomination? the end of the day, this is all about donald trump. >> yeah. we should note, it is nikki haley's home state, but trump has a commanding lead in south carolina, as well. national reporter jonathan allen, thanks, as always. thanks to you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. ramaswamy. >> you do this every debate. you go out and say something on the stump, we see it on video, confront you on the debate stage, and you say you didn't say it and back away. >> i'll tell you exactly what i said. >> i'm not done yet. >> look -- >> hold on, hold on. >> no. >> this is nonsense.

>> this is the fourth debate, the fourth debate that you would be voted in the first 20 minutes as the most on obnoxious blowhard in america, so shut up. 25 minutes into the debate, he has insulted nikki haley's basic intelligence. not her positions, her basic intelligence. she doesn't know regions. she wouldn't be able to find something on a map that his 3-year-old could find. look, if you want to disagree on issues, that's fine. nikki and i disagree on some issues. i'll tell you this, i've known her for 12 years, longer than east even started to vote in a republican primary. while we disagree with issues and disagree about who should be president of the united states, what we don't disagree on, this is a smart, accomplished woman, and you should stop insulting her. >> republican presidential candidate chris christie saying i think what everyone is thinking, attacking one

challenger while coming to the defense of another. we'll have more from the fourth gop debate, the final one before the iowa caucuses. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, december 7th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have nbc news national affairs analyst, john heilemann. special correspondent at "vanity fair" and host of the "the fast politics podcast," molly jong-fast. and "politics nation's" reverend al sharpton. and bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. and rogers chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt university, historian -- >> isn't that something? >> -- jon meacham. >> what's that? ♪♪ >> what are you saying that about? >> we have meacham here. >> he brings the gravitas. >> really does.

>> the prestige. >> best title by far of everybody else. >> rogers professor. >> no doubt. >> on this december 7th -- >> he is so important. >> -- 2023, we have him here, obviously, to talk about vivek. [ laughter ] >> willie, it was an interesting moment there. chris christie did what i think everybody in the room wanted him to do. at the same time, you have this very interesting dynamic. he was coming to the defense of a woman, which, again, you know, in the south, antiquated, that's what some of us have been taught to do. he's from jersey, so he doesn't have that excuse. but i love what he did. it kind of put nikki in a weird position, and you could see her discomfort. appreciating it but also thinking, i can take care of myself. >> she can. it was a parallel universe last

night where nikki haley was the frontrunner in the primary race. vivek criticizing her, chris christie going after her but then defending her in the next month. as christie said, who will be the guest in the next hour, time and again, "we're living in a fantasy world where donald trump isn't beating us by 30 points." why don't you, ron desantis, why don't you, nikki haley, why won't you, vivek, talk about the guy we're trying to defeat? maybe you're all playing for second place, running for 2028. vivek, you're probably looking for a job on a new trump administration. >> or a podcast. >> why are we living in a fantasy world where donald trump is not the frontrunnerfrontrunn? >> in the fantasy world, nikki haley is a rising star. i've heard from so many people who have never voted republican before, and, please, don't tell me all of her positions. i know. i'm just saying, when you have somebody connecting like that,

with people who may disagree with her political positions but still say, "i like her. i like how she stands up for herself. she seems pretty sane and rational. i may not agree with her position on abortion, but if she's at 15 weeks and rowe is at 22, 23 weeks, and she says we can figure out a way to bring america together on one of the more contentious issues," i know that doesn't sound good to the extremists on both sides, but it sounds good to the 80% on both sides. in a reality where donald trump isn't at 60%, and if for some reason something happened to donald trump where, i don't know, he couldn't run, she's -- we've been around this for a while. her star seems to be on the rise, doesn't it? >> it absolutely does. she has real political skills. i think she showed that last night by not going to the kitty table and fighting with vivek,

and really staying on the stage where people can actually see her, not only as someone likable, even if you disagree with her, as i probably disagree with her on everything, but that she's likable and she belongs at a certain level of respect. i remember when we were fighting the confederate flag in south carolina when she was governor. >> right. >> we would attack her. then the charleston massacre happened where this racist killed the people in the church. we did the show down there. >> right. >> i remember i went to speak at one of the funerals, and she was there. i said, "governor haley, i'm glad you're here. i never met you." she said, "if i knew you were out there marching, reverend, i would have had you in for lemonade and give you a hug," and she hugged me at the funeral. i said, "you got skills." it was a move that somebody understands. that gave me an appreciation for

her that she's now demonstrating to the nation. >> you know, it is interesting that nikki haley, again, is battling along with ron desantis, chris christie for first place -- or for second place right now. there may be a pathway for her to win new hampshire. there may be -- you know, new hampshire is interesting this year. you don't have a democratic race, so you have a lot of independents that aren't going to be splitting between a republican voting and democratic voting. but she has right now, and, again, i know she's at polls. i also followed enough campaigns, as you all have, too, to see when people talk about somebody, that's a leading indicator. you see the polls go up. but you look at the debate last night, the men screaming. you look at -- that's the latest national. if we could get the latest new hampshire, that'd be great.

you look at ron desantis and gavin newsom shouting at each other, with sean hannity shouting in the middle. there's a lot of men out there shouting. a lot of buffoonery. a lot of really loud voices. so if politics is about contrast, then what a contrast nikki haley has to every major politician they see on the air these days. >> well, there's a lot of contrasts. i would say, you know, that nikki haley's rise in this republican race has not been a rise that's been based on her being particularly tactful or low key. you know, she's been someone who -- you know, she attacked ramaswamy in the last debate and called him scum. she's gotten somewhere by being tough, by having good debate moments. last night, one of the questions people will have is whether --

every single debate, she's gotten a bump. will she get one after last night or not? i don't know the answer to the question, but whether you call it a fantasy world, as willie did, or you call it 2016, they're living in a world where they're all trying to figure out -- they're playing bracket, you know, ncaa bracketology. there's one bracket that's them, and then there's trump, and he has a bye in the first round in their view, and they'll eventually try to get him one-on-one. that didn't work out in 2016. they thought it was the way to play it. it didn't work out. the reason haley is interesting is, because of south carolina, because -- now, the caucuses are going to be a gimme for trump. they're rigged for him to win. but if she were to win new hampshire and the next big contest a month later is in her home state, that puts her in a different position than anybody else who ran against trump in 2016. trump went to south carolina, and that's where he consolidated the nominate.

he was off and never looked back. if she can take him on, really take him on, if she comes out of iowa and new hampshire in a good place, one-two, two-one, and then gets him on home turf, that's the scenario, right? that's the scenario she's thinking about. the rest of them, it's not clear what scenario they're thinking about. >> right. willie, you think about it, and, again, it's a long shot now, but her pathway forward is to win new hampshire. >> yeah. >> a lot of her people are saying, if she comes in second in new hampshire. no, it's over. if she can win new hampshire, and she's got a month to do it, then there's, i think, a month between new hampshire and south carolina, then she has a month, we're all going to be circling that date. because if she beats donald trump in new hampshire and then in her home state in south carolina, she goes into super tuesday with wins behind her, and then anything is possible. if she loses her home state, it's over. >> she's trailing badly in her home state. >> right.

>> it's right now. she has time. if she wins new hampshire, things certainly change. even in her home state, the one she'd have to count on to win, she's trailing badly to donald trump, who is popular there. buried in all these polls, molly, actually, nikki haley does better than any republican against joe biden, if she could ever get there. he is neck and neck with trump. everyone is within the margin of error. she beats biden by five, six, seven points. to joe's point about independents fed up, saying, i could live with nikki haley. >> i have a liberal group saying, oh, if nikki haley could be the nominee. there's long been thought, this conventional wisdom, that the only way there's ever going to be a woman president is if she's republican. she reads in a much more -- in a much less threatening way than a hillary clinton. we can get into that. but i do think, for me, as

someone who is pretty woke as a feminist, so to speak, i really thought last night she did really well. i was actually kind of moved by chris christie. i've been, like, the biggest chris christie critic, but i was moved by him stopping the tape and being lovely. >> me, too. >> mika, didn't you relate to that in a weird way? >> i did. i'll tell you why, because, you know, i think that women can point out sexism and other things, ageism, whatever, but when men do it, as well, it's even better. >> yeah. >> i appreciated it, and i thought, you know, it was generous. didn't have to do it. he could have left her standing alone to all of this, but he kind of pointed it out and put a full stop on it. yes, she can do it for herself. she's already proven that. she's taken down that ramaswamy guy many times to massive

applause in these debates. i think it's gotten to the point where everybody needs to sort of point out what they see. i thought what chris christie did sort of reminded me about sort of what i tell women in, you know, my know your value community. we have to have a voice, but we also have to have a very open mind to men who step up for us. because that's part of it, you know? i think it was great. i think it was great. joe, you and i have talked a lot about this. i know it's sort of a southern thing, what you're talking about there, as well, and i understand that, but it meant a lot to me when he did that. >> yeah, it really did. one man who has always stood up for me, jonathan lemire. >> chivalry is not dead. >> it wasn't chivalry. it was pointing out stupidity. >> in the rougher parts of boston proper. jonathan lemire, obviously,

nikki haley does better against biden than any of the other candidates. is the white house looking at that? are they just hoping that they get donald trump because he's, obviously, by far, the weakest republican candidate? >> joe, you rarely need defense, rarely. >> oh, thank you so much. >> the white house certainly believes, and those in the biden campaign operation believe that donald trump is going to be the nominee. they've also been candidate, privately anyway, for a year or more, that's the candidate they want to face. they think biden has the best chance of defeating trump than any other republican. yes, there are democrats who get alarmed when they think of the possibility of a nikki haley nomination. short of a black swan event, it is very, very hard to see right now, despite the mini momentum she has to be the trump alternative. but this is a campaign, and we heard from the president, and i thought it was telling this week about what the biden operation has been saying about the 2024 election. i have brand-new reporting out

this morning on it that the biden team seizes on trump's comments about wanting to be a dictator for a day. to them, this is validation of how they see this fight. yes, they understand that the economy will be big. of course, abortion rights will be big. of course, there are other issues that will sway voters next year. but they think that it is going to be fought over democracy again. much like 2020 was. much like 2022 was in some ways. they believe this is the campaign that biden himself personally -- people close to him said, "this is what he wants to talk about." donald trump remains, much like he was in 2020, a threat to the soul of the nation, to quote a phrase from someone else on this program right now. and this is someone that the threat has only grown. biden told people, if trump were to win again, he'd likely have at least one republican house of congress to go with him. he has a conservative supreme court. he's got a gop that forgave him for january 6th and only made

him more powerful. he'll also have the belief that he will have survived, again, if he wins, he will have survived these criminal indictments and still emerge as president and has the power of the federal government at his fingertips. they say that's the clearest and starkest argument they need to make going forward. >> and add packing the administration with people hellbent on the deep state, the media, and everybody else. jon meacham, the soul of the nation was invoked, so let's go to you. chris christie in the republican race is the only one making the case that jonathan lemire just talked about the biden campaign is making, that donald trump is a threat to democracy. here's what chris christie said last night. >> do i think he was kidding when he said he was a dictator? all you have to do is look at the history. that's why failing to speak out against him, making excuses for him, pretending that, somehow, he's a victim empowers him.

you want to know why the poll numbers are where they are? folks like these three on the stage make it seem like his conduct is acceptable. let me make it clear, his conduct is unacceptable. he is unfit. be careful of what you're going to get if you ever got another donald trump term. he's letting you know, i am your retribution. >> thank you. >> elizabeth, he will only be his own retribution. he doesn't care for the american people. it is donald trump first. >> thank you, governor christie. governor desantis. governor desantis. thank you. >> a mix of applause that morphed into boos there in the i arena in tuscaloosa. chris christie became moderator and turned to governor december desantis at one point and said, "do you think donald trump is fit for office?" none of the people on the panel would answer the question. >> christie is doing an extraordinary service to the country by standing in rooms that probably are not tuning in

very carefully to everything willie geist says and does, about making this case. in many ways, it's not that trump is on trial. it's that the republican party is on trial. you know, there's nothing unclear about this at all. he wants to be an authoritarian figure. desantis, i think, last night made a case which is particularly unsettling, which is, well, trump isn't good at it so, therefore, it's okay, was the implication. well, he didn't do x and y. he said he'd do this and he didn't. wow, that's a novel way of looking at it. i think what governor christie is doing is important. there were sort of three different stories on that stage, seemed to me. christie is telling the truth as he sees it. i happen to agree with him, so, therefore, i think he is very wise in this case.

haley is threading a needle, a recognizable republican figure. desantis a little less so. then we're off on january 6th being an inside job, which was among the more irresponsible things said. so, to me, look, what makes america work, what makes the constitution work is a functional two-party system. we can argue about whether that's a good idea or not, about whether the electoral college is a mistake, all that. basically, this is what we have right now. you need two parties that are basically conversent with republican. the republican party, with the exception of christie, is ambivalent at best, and, at worst, hostile to reason. that's what -- and i have a feeling we're going to end one a

very stark choice next fall. >> jon, there are days that forever change america. of course, september 11th, 2001. november 22nd, 1963. you can draw a line straight through that date and write volumes of books about the america before and the america after kennedy was assassinated. of course, december 7th, 1941, perhaps the most momentous date in the 20century. i was looking at headlines just now to see what people were writing about this date. i found a perfect one that explain what is the japanese attack on pearl harbor did, not just to our fleet in the pacific, but to every single american. the headline, "pearl harbor

attacked, thrust wisconsin into world war ii." thinking about my family in dalton, georgia, my 17-year-old uncle at the time, uncle bill, and thinking about my grandmother on her knees, praying every night he would return home safely four years later. it's amazing what this one attack did to every single american family, and also, of course, to the direction of the united states for the 80 years that followed. >> you know, as president roosevelt said, the initial draft said that today will be a day that will live in world history. in one of the great edits, fdr wrote, "the date which will live in infamy." it is vital to, i think -- the

implications from this date elevated america to an unrivalled, unparalleled position of power. imagine four years later, we had the capacity in our hands to destroy human life. we had that much power because of the manhattan project. you had this remarkable, rapid rise to a dizzying pinnacle of power. but we were dragged into this. we were dragged into a fundamental conflict between democracy and dictatorship, between the enlightenment and fascism. we were dragged into it not only by the japanese attack today, but five days later, by adolph hitler's declaring war on the united states. we did not declare war on nazi germany until nazi germany declared war on us. so as churchill once said, you can count on the americans to do the right thing once we've

exhausted every other possibility. that is an important thing for us to remember. not to, therefore, lower our expectations of ourselves, but to remember that even the greatest generation, as our friend todd brokaw called it, talking about your family, my grandfathers were in the war, even they were not early on this story. they weren't early converts to the defense of democratic values versus the horrors of dictatorship, particularly in europe. but we got it right. so what that tells us, seems to me, is that if they got it right and they were fall, frail, fallible people. we, as fall, frail, fallible people, can get our time right. >> jon meacham, thank you so much. we really appreciate it. coming up in one minute on "morning joe," we'll go live to

las vegas for the latest in the aftermath of yesterday's deadly mass shooting on the campus of unlv. plus, we'll go over the new indictments tied to efforts to overturn the 2020 election. "morning joe" is back in 60 seconds. joe" is back in 60 seconds. december 7th, 1941, a date which will live in infamy. the united states of america was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the empire of japan. i ask that the congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by japan on sunday, december 7th, 1941, a

state of war has existed between the united states and the japanese empire. [ applause ] we donate one to those in need. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first purchase. bombas. give the good.

three people were killed and another was injured in a mass shooting yesterday on the campus of the university of nevada lat lasvegas. the shooter was in his 60s and was killed by police in a shootout. the gunman went to several floors before he was killed outside of the building. joining us now live from las vegas, nbc news correspondent jay gray. jay, what's the latest there? >> reporter: yeah, willie, it all happened just behind the student union, which is just over our shoulder here, in a grassy area between the business school and that union. an area that, by the way, was

hosting an event with a lot of students on the grounds there. we are told by witnesses that that man was armed with a pistol when he opened fire just before noon. students scattered, moving into the union, moving back into the business school and other buildings on campus, barricading and waiting, some for hours. many eventually escorted out by police officers here with their hands up. some walking past the three victims who were killed. we know that police arrived just minutes after the first shots were fired and engaged with the gunman. they say they were fired on first and returned that fire, killing the gunman. we don't know the names of the victims at this point. don't know the name of the suspect. we do know that much of the campus remains closed. investigators searching there and at a residence in nearby

henderson for any evidence that may help them understand how and why the tragedy unfolded here. we should also point out that officials with unlv have said classes obviously are canceled for the rest of this week. next week was supposed to be finals week. they haven't decided at this point how they are going to handle that. they say they'll make that decision in the coming days. a lot of the faculty and staff have been told to stay home, as well, and to work from home if they have things they must get done. this is all really still in flux, as you might imagine. it hasn't even been 24 hours since the attack. one other thing we should mention, counselors will be on hand for students, faculty, staff, anyone who feels like they need someone to talk to after the attack, willie. >> nbc's jay gray in las vegas, thanks so much. in texas, police arrested a man after a shooting spree left six people dead in that state. nbc's morgan chesky has more

there. >> reporter: in texas, police pouring over five crime scenes spanning eight hours. they say they're all connected to a single gunman. >> we strongly believe one suspect is responsible for all of the incidents. >> reporter: authorities identifying the suspect as shane james, a 4-year-old now charged with capital murder, who served in the army as an infantry officer as recently as 2015. investigators say his shooting spree began tuesday morning at an austin high school. >> aisd officer has apparently been shot. ems is in route. >> reporter: a school resource officer was wounded. inside the school, a teacher knew this wasn't a drill. >> you hear lockdown. what goes through your head? >> keep the kids safe. just take action. protect the kids mainly. >> reporter: no students were harmed, but nearby, less than an hour later -- >> i thought i heard something like fireworks or something, pop, pop, pop. >> reporter: a shooting in south austin leaving two dead. followed hours later by another

shooting. police reporting a cyclist wounded near a highway. finally, tuesday evening, a crucial burglary call. >> officer needs assistance, officer needs assistance, had shots fired. >> reporter: police arresting james after he shot an officer and kills two more people. san antonio authorities connecting james to another homicide 60 miles away. >> these are believed to be the parents of the suspect in custody in travis county. >> reporter: six alleged murders and no known motives. >> wonderful people. every time i talk about it, it hurts me. wonderful people. good man. >> that's nbc's morgan chesky with that report. i cannot help but think about -- look at these stories and think about the quick response by the police officers. i talked about 9/11. i remember after the attacks of

september 11th, the army corps responded within minutes, within minutes. the nypd got the call, raced down there. reporters even, mika's first day at cbs, came over the radio. she ran 55 blocks, got down there, and started reporting. everybody within minutes got to the scene at 9/11. there's a question that continues to hang out in the air, uncomfortably, about what happened in israel. i still don't understand what happened on october the 7th. i'm looking at a timeline in "the new york times" here. think about this. the attacks in israel started at 6:30 in the morning. 6:30 in the morning. residents went into hiding then. shootings and bombings.

9:30, three hours into the attack, hostages were already being taken to gaza. hostages taken from the festive. the shootings had already taken place at the festival. this is three hours into the attack. still no response from israel. three hours into the attack. 12:30, six hours into the attack, hostages continue to be taken. attackers continue to terrorize the street. israelis, now six hours in, hiding in their homes. whatever children could escape and hide in their safe rooms, desperately trying to get away from the attacks of terror. six hours in. think, i mean, again, let's wake up to this.

six hours in, netanyahu's government had not responded to all the rapings, to all the killings, to all the shootings of babies, to the burning of babies alive in their cribs, to pleas and calls that -- there's a 67-year-old retired general who was riding his bike, heard about what was going on, rode his bike home, got a pistol, jumped in his car, grabbed a few people, and started rescuing hostages on his own. yet, it took eight hours after the attack, eight and a half hours after the attack that you had evacuations, final evacuations of some of these places. when did the rescues come? more than 13 hours into the

attack. more than 13 hours into the attack for some of these -- some of these areas. more than 20 hours after the attack in other areas. where is the army? a man texted his family after hiding from hamas attackers for five hours. a 22-year-old woman was shot and killed. five hours into this siege, into these terror attacks, five hours, in a country no bigger than the size of, what, delaware? no bigger than the size. come on! where are the answers? don't tell me we have to wait until after netanyahu decides it's time to tell us what happened. five hours. and this poor woman, this dead

woman now, this daughter texted her family after hiding from hamas attackers for five hours, "where is the army?" she was shot and killed. others hid in the woods, barricaded themselves in safe woods, and waited for as long as 26 hours! for the rescuers to come. israeli officials declined to answer questions about the timing of the response. yeah, really? in what world? in what world, willie, are they allowed to sit back and say, "we don't have to tell you why it took us 26 hours to respond to women being raped, why it took us 13 hours to respond to babies being shot and burned, why it took us five hours, even didn't

respond in five hours." a poor, young woman, 22 years old, hiding from rapists and murderers, begging her own country. where was her own country? where were the police? where were the army? where were they? why don't we have a clear answer to this? >> and the only answer, as you said, has been, "there will be a time to talk about that. right now, we have to root out hamas. we have to defeat hamas." that's prime minister netanyahu's response. >> would americans say that if it took 22 hours to respond to 9/11? >> no. i'm not saying trust that. that's what they want you to swallow and push it to the side. it's also, joe, not like we're talking about some ragtag military. we're talking about the idf. we're talking about one of the most sophisticated intelligence services on earth, which, as "the new york times" reported out last week, may have known about this a year out. it is an intelligence failure to start with, and then the response, there's no explaining

that for a military that good, that sophisticated. i don't know the answer. it's going to be one of the big questions coming out of this. >> rev, they knew this was coming for a year. they had the attack plan in hand. when it started to happen, they you exactly what was going on, including using rape as a weapon of war. young women. you know, we're talking about these women who were rraped, abused, who hamas treated like animals, paraded them among cheering palestinians. >> that's what makes it even more egregious. they knew about it. some are trying to say, "well, we thought it was overblown. they could never do it." but if you had the plan there, at what point does it kick into you, well, we were told this. let's get the plan and stop it? they never went there. the fact of the matter is, when you look at the timeline that "the new york times" laid out, people like me were calling jonathan greenblatt at the adl

before they were even reacting in israel. i mean, the news in this country was already showing what they were not reacting to. so where is the disconnect of the netanyahu government's reaction here, where you can have the world media on this within a couple of hours, and 12 hours later, you're starting to move? you already had intelligence telling you this was possible. there's something that is unexplainable about this. >> there's a problem. >> we really need to stay on that. >> yeah. >> no one has stood up more than people around this table, around what happened on october 7th was inexcusable, and what's happening in gaza. also inexcusable is they're not explaining the hours' delay and netanyahu's by behaviors, which is why the hostages are saying, "what are you doing?

why?" >> mika? >> hostages are being held in horrid conditions. there is no reasonable explanation for this, and that's another part of this complex problem. we have to give that as much time and not give up on the questions. coming up, a few of the nation's top universities are in damage control following a house hearing on anti-semitism. we'll have the latest fallout from the presidents of those schools sidestepping questions from lawmakers. "morning joe" will be right back. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? [dog barks] oh.

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i have not heard calling for the killing of jews. i have heard chants which can be anti-semitic when calling for the elimination of the jewish people. >> that wouldn't be according to m.i.t.'s conduct or rules? >> that would be investigated as harassment, if pervasive and severe. >> if it is directed and severe and pervasive, it is harassment. >> so the answer is yes? >> it is a context dependent decision, congresswoman. >> it is a context dependent decision, calling for the genocide of jews? that is not bullying or harassment? this is the easiest question to answer yes, ms. mcgill. >> anti-semitic rhetoric, amounting to bullying, harassment, intimidation, that is actionable conduct. we do take action. >> so the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide of jews

violates harvard code of conduct, correct? >> again, it depends on the context. >> it does not depend on the context. the answer is yes, and this is why you should resign. these are unacceptable answers across the board. >> the presidents of harvard and the university of pennsylvania are responding to the backlash and calls to resign following their answers during a congressional hearing on rising anti-semitism on their campuses. the president of harvard university, claudine gay said people misunderstood her remarks. the statement reads, quote, there are some who have confused a right to free expression with the idea that harvard will condone calls for violence againstewih students. let me be clear, calls for violence or genocide against the jewish community, or any religious or ethnic group, are

vile. they have no place at harvard. those who threaten our jewish students will be held to account. and the president of the university of pennsylvania, liz mcgill, posted a video on social media, promising to review the school's code of conduct. >> there was a moment during yesterday's congressional hearing on anti-semitism when i was asked if a call for the genocide of jewish people on our campus would violate our policies. in that moment, i was focused on our university's longstanding policies aligned with the u.s. constitution. speech alone is not punishable. i was not focused on, but i should have been, the irrefutable fact that a call for genocide of jewish people is a call for some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate.

it's evil. plain and simple. i want to be clear, a call for genocide of jewish people is threatening, deeply so. it is intentionally meant to terrify a people who have been subjected to hatred for centuries and were the victims of mass genocide in the holocaust. in my view, it would be harassment or intimidation. for decades, under multiple penn presidents, and consistent with most universities, penn's policies have been guided by the constitution and the law. in today's world, we are seeing signs of hate proliferating across our campus and our world in a way not seen in years, these policies need to be clarified and evaluated. penn must initiate a serious and careful look at our policies. provost jackson and i will immediately convene a process to

do so. as president, i'm committed to a safe, secure, and supportive environment so all members of our community can thrive. we can and we will get this right. thank you. >> so, willie, that's penn's president, liz macgill. you know, we didn't -- i don't think any of us understood what they were saying in front of congress the day before. i will say, when you have somebody that comes on and says, "i should have been better prepared to answer this question," said, "it's evil," something you don't usually hear from university presidents, talking about revising the code of conduct, which mika said yesterday, "well, if this doesn't violate your code of conduct, you need to revise it," she says they're willing to do that. it talks about how it's threatening, deeply so. then at the end, she said that

pog policies need to be revised, and we need to get this right. that's the response you want to hear from somebody who is running a university that really didn't get it right the day before and caused, obviously, great concern among jewish students and their families, and also people like us, who are disturbed by this. then in contrast to that, you have the president of harvard, who said, oh, people were too stupid to understand what i was trying to say. no, we understood exactly what you were trying to say. what you were trying to say is, you're fine with people talking about the genocide of jews. you're totally fine with that. that doesn't violate your code of conduct. if people talk about killing jews. they have to actually do something, as if the act of calling for the genocide of jews is not an act in and of itself that is evil, as the president

of penn said, and leads to violence. i just don't get it. i really don't get it. if somebody called -- i said, again, what if those same students were calling for the genocide of native americans? what if they were calling for the genocide of hispanics, the genocide of catholics, the genocide of black americans, the genocide of you name it, southern baptists even? anybody but jews. but you call for the genocide of jews, and, suddenly, the same people at harvard that were saying, "speech is like an action. speech is threatening. speech is this, is that." we've heard it for ten years as the university administrators have bubble wrapped their students, as we say. now, the bubble wrap, weirdly enough, is taken off if you're a jew. just like if you're a jew who

was raped, hey, members of congress say, "it happens. yeah, they got raped in savage and got shot in theirgentiles, yeah, there was gentile mutelization, but, hey, it happens in war." do they hate jews so much that they're this blind, they're willing to look like fools publicly? is their hatred for jews so great that they're blind to their own double standards? we know double standard is massive, and it only applies to jews. >> or are they so weak that they can't stand up to a small group of students who are very vocal and loud, and they fear their own students, even though they're the adults? by the way, in the other campus examples you listed, the students would be expelled, they'd shut down the school for

a week and have a huge dialogue about what was going on on the campus. not so much. >> safe spaces would be created for all. there would be people coming in, and they'd have mindfulness retreats. not that there is anything wrong with mindfulness retreats. but, no, if this happened on campus, any of these campuses with any group other than jews, there would be an explosion. >> your other point -- >> let me ask, rev -- sorry to interrupt. >> no. >> i have to ask. rev, you are the premier civil rights leader in the united states. what would happen, what would happen on harvard, at harvard, if a group -- let's say a group of 1,000 white students called for the genocide of all black americans? >> i would let you know what time the buses were leaving for my march on harvard. i mean, there would be no way we wouldn't react. and we don't even have to take

an imaginary example. let's look at how we've gone after nfl owners and people on the tv and radio, broadcasters and all, for saying almost that, not even that. >> far less that. >> far less than that. people have lost nba and nfl teams that we've marched on. so if somebody is walking on a campus saying, "kill the jews," all i have to say to my fellow civil rights leaders, if they said, "kill the blacks," we'd be marching. this is not hard. this is not difficult. you don't react to the noise of the crowd. it's that you have no inner guts to stand up for everyone you want to stand up for us. you can't have it both ways. >> israel's envoy for combating anti-semitism, great to have you with us this morning. hanukkah starts tonight, we should also point out. i'm curious about your reaction. we're happy president macgill maybe saw the light, came around

and put out the statement, but to say, "i wasn't prepared," not prepared for the question about whether calling for the genocide of the jewish people constitutes bullying on your campus is a little bit of a tough one to swallow. >> i'll say that i actually went to brief the entire committee yesterday as a follow-up to the hearing. i think what rev was saying is the most importan in the introductory comments. we have to recognize the nature of the double standard collapses the entire principle, right? these universities created diversity, equity, inclusion that is for everybody, except if you're a jew or zionist. if it collapses, it won't protect anybody. today, it's the supporter of israel. tomorrow, it is everybody else. i would say, we should get the buses onto the campuses, no matter who they enable to attack. there is one more piece. look, the understanding that

zionism today on campuses is considered racism, and we have to sort of address this, right? u.n. resolution, 1975, soviet propaganda, zionism is racism is alive and well in the name of progress on 2023 campuses. we are going to have to be able to unpack that. zionist is the identity of the majority of jews and many non-jews. i can't shed that zionist pound of my identity in order to be a good jew or good human being. that is the longer process leading us to this point, where there are leaders without courage to call out what needs to be said. which is, if all students deserve protection, so do david, who is a jew, or catherine, a zionist. if we can't say that using the dei infrastructure, there is something inherently wrong with the way it came about. this is also a moment of reckoning for academic institutions in general. this is not just about

anti-semitism or jews or the inability to call out genocide as a double standard, because against any other group, we would have called it out. it is about, what is the intention and mission statement of universities? is it to teach people how to think, or is it what we've seen, to teach people what to think, which is actually a dangerous prospect? >> you know, molly, this has been a problem on college campuses for some time. i go back into the dark ages of scarborough country. >> oh. >> yeah. no passport required. >> long time. >> only common sense allowed. but i remember one disturbing anti-semitic act on college campus after another. it wasn't just a singular thing. it'd be, let's say -- and people will know what i'm talking about when i bring it up -- a young woman who was kicked off usc's student government because she

had the wrong political views regarding israel. at columbia, just openly anti-semitic statements being made by professors over and over and over again. what i found since october 7th is that most of us, from conservatives like me to progressives, liberals/progressives like you, have stood together on this and said, "we have got to protect, just as we protect muslim-americans, palestinian-americans, we have to protect jews on college campuses." just sitting back while people are talking about genocide against jews and saying that's somehow acceptable speech on college campuses, it just is not right. it's just not right. we have to all speak out against it. >> i mean, i'm jewish, and i grew up jewish. actually, it's funny -- i mean, it's not funny, but since this

has happened, i've gone back to synagogue much more than i ever did. so i do think, and my daughter, too, is like, let's go to synagogue tonight. so i definitely do think this has been a call to a lot of jews you know, that anti-semitism is something that we live with, but -- and i would like us to not. but, you know, it is a reality. i was really disturbed that these college presidents couldn't say, anti-semitism, just like islamophobia is wrong. it is wrong. you don't need to couch it in anything else. you can just say, it's appalling. it is not okay. the way they spoke, all in unison, saying the same thing in this very lawyered way, when they couldn't just say, "it's not okay to discriminate against anyone, even including jews." >> we're talking about 18-year-old kids going to class and having mobs scream about the

genocide of jews. i mean, if i were a college administrator, well, you wouldn't want me to be in that position. you just wouldn't. it would not be pretty. but how any college administrator could hide behind legalisms and not say, "our first priority, just like those poor palestinian men that were shot up in burlington, vermont, our first priority is protecting our students from violence, from threatens of violence. and, again, you call for the killing of an entire race is far more than saying, we support a two-state solution. netanyahu's position toward the west bank has been destructive to the peace process." that's an argument to make. make that on college campuses. debate it. but the genocide of a people?

you still have the president of harvard university still thinking that's okay on her college campus. >> and they're the grown-ups. that's what i keep coming back to. a lot of these are young kids, 18, 19, they're figuring out the world. they don't know the history of the conflict. maybe they don't israel left gaza 16 year ce ago. there's a lot to say. you can have the discussion like they did at dartmouth. "60 minutes" did a piece about that. hang on, let's get in a room together, different faiths, and let's talk about what's going on, instead of having these fights on campus. i think it's important to point out, as joe said, this isn't just some academic exercise. we know jewish kids who go to a lot of these schools and are afraid to be there. they walk out, look over their shoulder, they're yelled at and harassed just for the act of being jewish and trying to go to school. >> i want to say, two months to 10/7 today. 10/7 was the most atrocious massacre the jewish people have experienced since the holocaust.

war crimes, crimes against humanity, and according to international law experts, the making of a genocide, the very word that has been thrown around on these campuses. now, if we do not understand that anti-semitism never died, it just mutated, that's what i was referencing before. the current strain of an ever-mutating virus that is permeating and festering and infecting socieies and campuses, that strain of anti-zionism which is -- >> again, let me -- i'll let you continue, but i'll say, it never really mutated because this has been the environment on college -- elite college campuses for more than 30 years. what's happened is, you have had people that have learned this in college. they've gone on to get their masters, their phds. they're gone in, they've taken those beliefs they were told 30

years ago, 40 years ago, they have become professors. this has become, and it is one of the reasons -- we're saying, how could they be so blind? how could they be so blind? it's like water for them. they have been in this environment their entire adult life. where being anti-semitic is somehow okay. calling for the genocide of jews is okay. calling for the destruction of israel is okay. talking about from the river to the sea, not only okay, that will make you a hit at any cocktail party, at any elite college campus. >> so -- >> that's the environment. >> you're 100% right. actually, it has been festering for decades and developing over decades. i referenced before, zionism turning into racism, so to speak. israel into an apartheid state, which has no right to exist. if that's what you've sort of consumed for decades, then, of course, you would call for the dismantling from the river to the sea of what you allege to be an apartheid state. something very important we

might be missing, and that is, whereas, i'll call it traditional anti-semitism that many experienced over time, demonized and delegitized and applied double standards to the individual jew. what has happened in these decades, in the 75 years systematically of an indigenous people, jews are an indigenous people, by the way, a prototypical indigenous people that speech the same language, read the same book, traverse the same land, worship the same god. after a millenia of persecution, the return to israel, the delegitimization and double standards, that didn't die. that mutated to actually, from the river to the sea call to annihilate that jew among the nations, the state of israel,bo individual jew. that's what we clearly address. when we talk about anti-semitism, the first question is, what is

anti-semitism? what are we committed to identifying and combating? there is a definition. that is my conversation with everyone, by the way, of those university presidents included, one-on-one. if you don't start by defining anti-semitism, and we have a definition, incorporating it into your policies, including your dei infrastructure and training, you're not combating anti-semitism. you're throwing around a word with no meaning. >> willie, make no mistake, this is happening on college campuses across america. i'm hearing about it every day. again, phrasings like, "from the river to the sea" are, actually -- which is calling for the destruction of israel, the genocide of jews, that's actually very much in vogue. it's among students. there is far too much comfort, and that's actually a mainstream position on too many college campuses right now. there's something wrong with our educational system at some of these elite universities, and it needs to be corrected.

>> forgive the term in this context, but it's become fashionable. on tiktok, they hear, river to the sea, and they're like, i'll be part of what feels like a movement. i'll march. there have been people who have gone out, pollsters, reporters, and said, do you know what river to the sea means, to a 19-year-old, and they go, not really. when they explain, they go, oh, i don't want that. i don't want that. they think they're a part of some movement. israel's special envoy for combating anti-semitism, thank you so much for being here. we'll talk again soon. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> and molly jong-fast, thank you, also. >> appreciate it. >> mika? >> more dog pictures. coming up in a few minutes, a conversation on the state of the economy. by many measures, the economy is strong. why then do so many americans feel it's not? "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner is here to explain. and republican presidential candidate chris christie will be our guest in just a moment. first, we're following a few

developments in the continued consequences of the efforts by donald trump and his allies to subvert the results of the 2020 election. a grand jury in nevada indicted six republicans for serving as false electors. the group is accused of taking part in a scheme in battleground states to submit paperwork falsely naming former president trump as the winner. the indictment yesterday included a list of witnesses, including former trump attorney kenneth chesebro. chesbro was a defendant in the georgia case but took a plea deal. he is cooperating with investigators in multiple state probes. nevada is the third state to indict a slate of fake electors after georgia and michigan. in wisconsin, a group of pro-trump false electors agreed

to settle a lawsuit and acknowledge joe biden's win in the state. in 2020, the group signed and submitted paperwork that falsely asserted former president trump won the state. as part of a civil suit yesterday, they settled and acknowledged biden's victory in the state. two of the actual electors filed the suit last year. they originally wanted up to $200,000 from each fake elector, but no money is part of the final deal. as "the washington post" notes, wednesday's civil settlement marks the first time pro-trump electors have agreed to revoke their false filings and not repeat their actions in the next presidential election. let's bring in former u.s. attorney and an msnbc contributor, barbara mcquade. what does this all mean in the bigger scheme of things? excuse the pun. in terms of donald trump's case

against him, trying to overturn the election, and also, on a more local level, what does it mean? >> well, sometimes these smaller cases may fall under the radar, but they can be incredibly important. as you said, kenneth chesebro is cooperating in nevada, but in wisconsin, he remains a defendant and the fake electors are cooperating against him. he is such an important player in all of this. because, of course, he was the architect of the fake elector scheme. all of these people are putting pressure on him to cooperate which, in turn, i think, will mean truthful testimony about those higher than him on the criminal org chart. that includes people like john eastman and donald trump. i think from the big picture, these are really important cases. then i think even at the more micro level, it's very important to hold accountable everybody who participated in this scheme. sometimes, those people who are maybe not household names, were active only in the states, are

still prominent in their state. some of these people held positions of power within the republican party in their states. holding them accountable is important at the state level, as well. >> barbara, that's a great point. some of those people in nevada are state officials there, are running for other offices, and now have been ensnared for their wrongdoing in this fake elector scheme. go a little further, if you will, as to what could come next. there have been three states cracking down on this, georgia, michigan, now nevada. could be others on the horizon. as investigators are piecing together and putting pressure on those higher up the food chain, tell us more about what that would look like. >> that's the key of a prosecutor's strategy, is to always sort of see if you can begin at the ground level and put pressure on people by sharing with them the consequences of either a conviction or, in the case of wisconsin, ultimate loss in court in a civil case, and coming clean with information

that can be useful, working your way up the chain. i imagine what we could see is at the federal trial involving jack smith, he'd call in some of these people as witnesses to talk about the phone call they had with john eastman or kenneth chesebro, or the meeting they had, or what they were told. or, as in the wisconsin case, we've seen some really interesting text messages going on between the parties, email messages with kenneth chesebro. talking to all of these people unlocks a lot of that evidence that could be used in the bigger cases, ultimately against donald trump. >> all right. former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade, thank you very much. now, donald trump was once again a no-show at last night's fourth republican presidential debate, the final one before the iowa caucuses. that left four candidates on the stage at tuscaloosa, alabama. ron desantis, nikki haley, vivek ramaswamy, and chris christie,

all trailing trump by wide margins in the national polls. the debate kicked off with a question about donald trump's major lead. instead of going after the presumptive primary frontrunner, ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy focused their attacks on nikki haley. >> nikki haley, she caves anytime the left comes after her. >> the only person more fascist than the biden regime now is nikki haley. >> nikki is meeting with all these people. they want to use economic power to impose a left-wing agenda on this country. >> just to respond to ron, he continues to lie about my record. >> i was warning about the woke industrial complex in this country as a warning. apparently, she read it as a how-to manuel. >> in terms of the donors supporting me, they're jealous. they wish they were supporting them. >> you were bankrupt when you left the u.n. after you left the u.n., you became a military contractor. now, you're a multimillionaire. that math does not add up. it adds up to the fact that you

are corrupt. >> i love all the attention, fellas. thank you for that. >> i look at my watch now. we're 17 minutes into this debate. except for your little speech in the beginning, we've had these three acting as if the race is between the four of us. the fifth guy, who doesn't have the guts to show up and stand here, he's the one who, as you just put it, is way ahead in the polls. yet, i've got these three guys who are all seemingly to compete with, you know, voldemort, he who shall not be named. they don't want to talk about it. >> by the way, as a side note, "the washington post" wrote this last night, "vivek called january 6th a deplorable and disgraceful assault on our democratic process by misguided rioters." last night, he said it was an inside job. it's just disgraceful. it's disgraceful because he

knows better. it's disgraceful because what he is doing is the opposite of what he said in the past. it's disgraceful because, as i've said from the beginning, he is a smart, talented guy, and could have actually made a difference in this campaign instead of just going down one rabbit hole, one conspiracy theory after another, which he knows is the lie. that's the thing that defines so much of this republican party. it defines the speaker of the house right now. he knows he is lying. as liz cheney was saying, liz would say, "hey, mike, mike johnson, mike, you know there's no basis in this, this petition you're trying to send around. you know there's no constitutional basis for the argument." he goes, "oh, i know, i know. i know." he's so desperate. you know, for republicans that are watching, we've heard for seven years people saying off camera that they thought donald trump was a stain on the republican party, a disgrace of a human being, and a man that

none of them would want their children to be around, would never invite him into their own house. he was disgusting. he was everything that they taught their children not to be. that's what we hear from republicans off camera. they get on camera, and like the current speaker of the house, who i guess has a bible. it's worse than a jeffersonian bible. i guess he has a bible that says, "the ends justify the mean. lie all you want for power. then say it is jesus that made you do it." maybe that's his bible. i don't know. he keeps lying, and i hope he stops. because, you know, as a back baptist, i have more reason than anybody else to believe many redemption. i hope one day he'll see the light and stop lying. he'll stop hiding behind the biggest lie of all, the biggest lie that actually threatens american democracy. let's bring in from the site of

last night's republican debate, presidential candidate and former new jersey governor, chris christie. chris, roll tide. >> roll tide, baby. >> alabama, you're at the home of the greatest college football team this year. that's very exciting. i wanted to ask you about last night. i just got to say, all the screaming, all the shouting, and that, the screaming and the shouting in the sean hannity debate, it just turns americans off. you seemed to get that, you know, 15 minutes into the debate. talk about what you saw from up there. >> well, what i saw with three people who are in the land of make believe. nikki haley, ron desantis, and vivek -- well, vivek, let's end the conversation about him here. he's like a drunk driver on the debate stage.

i mean, this is a guy who you never know where he is going to go, what he is going to make up next, what lane he is going to swerve into. but with ron and nikki, they're in a make believe thing, that, somehow, this contest is between the two of them. the contest between the two of them is for, like, who is going to be the first loser? i thought last night they both didn't equip themselves very well. somehow, they can't talk about trump. ron desantis tied himself into, like, a philly pretzel, being unwilling to say if donald trump is fit or unfit for the office. he refused to say whether he'd send troops to taiwan or not if china attacked. he refused to say whether he would send troops to gaza if there was a reasonable plan to try to rescue the american hostages. i mean, you know, at some point, you have to answer a damn question and not just keep talking about, you know, what you did in florida.

quite frankly, you're not running for governor of florida again, ron. you're running for president of the united states. as for nikki last night, i mean, i didn't know whether she was really going to answer questions or not or just keep talking about her donors. look, this race is against donald trump, joe. you know that. i'm the only one on that stage who is willing to take him on. what i'd ask republican voters who are discontent with trump is, who do you want to be the last person on that stage? who shows they have the skill, the ability, and the guts to take him on? i think last night showed that pretty clearly. >> so, governor christie, speaking about the people on the stage last night, there were four of you up there. if someone dropped in from outer space with a marginal interest in public life in america and watched that debate, i'm pretty sure within 15 to 20 minutes of watching the debate, they would be saying, okay, who doesn't belong and why? so it would look like you didn't

belong up there because you were different than the other three and you were taking on the principal candidate for presidency, donald trump. why were you there? >> i'm here because this race started off with 13 people, and we're really down to the final four. vivek can't be counted. last night, he was once again showing himself to be donald trump's wingman, you know, somehow auditioning for secretary of commerce in a trump administration. you know, in the end, i'm there because the truth needs to be told, mike. and the american people need to hear the truth, and they're not going to take it in until they hear it over and over again. unlike me and you, who the center of our lives, beside our families, are politics and baseball, unfortunately, not everybody else has the same point of view. i've got to keep at it. i'm going to keep at it. patience and persistence will win this race. i think what republican voters

will decide after last night is, you know, who they want to be the last person on stage when donald trump ultimately shows up. i think i showed last night, not only that i'm more prepared than any of those three people to be president of the united states by actually directly answering questions, also, i'm the only one who has the guts to take on trump. >> hey, governor, it is heilemann here. to stay on this point, you have been consistently the only person who has been willing to take on donald trump. you are also, i think it is undeniable, someone who has been pretty, from the data we see, is unpopular among republicans now in the current state of the party. a lot of people have very negative views. they've heard their message. they don't seem to like it. i commend it. i think your message is truth, and i think you're doing the right thing. but it doesn't seem like there's much of a receptive audience for it in the party. can you point to anything tangible that suggests that i'm wrong, that there actually is a

welcoming, willing audience among republican voters, this republican party in 2024, heading into 2024, that gives you an opening to become the nominee of this party? >> yeah, because you're going to watch how i do in new hampshire. i'll do extraordinarily well in new hampshire. i'll move from there to michigan and do extraordinarily well in michigan. then, once again, heilemann, you'll try to convince everybody that you saw it coming all along. you know, that's fine. that's why they pay you to do the things you do. but, you know -- >> not all the things that he does. you know, there are a lot of things he does, governor, that nobody pays for. in fact, he's encouraged not to. but go ahead. [ laughter ] >> you know, joe, very good point. joe, point well-taken. i'll say this, you know, at this point in the race eight years ago in iowa, right after thanksgiving, ben carson was ten points ahead.

ted cruz was at 7%. he wound up winning the iowa caucuses. the last time we saw a new hampshire poll back in september, 60% of the republicans in new hampshire said they would never vote for me. in november, that was down to 47%. i guess never really didn't mean never. john, you're smarter than to think a race remains static. i think i moved things last night. i think we'll see that reaction in new hampshire. the fact is, you know, all these other folks should be considering why they're still in the race. they're not taking on the frontrunner. they're all in double digits in the early states. i'm in double digits in new hampshire and essentially tied for second place. so, you know, they should be asking themselves, what's their path to beating donald trump? or is the path they're trying to be either to donald trump's cabinet or to the 2028 race? that's the sense i get from nikki haley and ron desantis. they're more concerned about not

angering some trump voters for 2028 when they don't believe he'll be a candidate again, than they are about trying to prevent him from ruining this country as president over the next four years, or allowing someone like joe biden and kamala harris to have another four years. i'm in this race to win it, john. >> governor, good morning. to that exact point, there is that theory out there, that watching last night, nikki haley, ron desantis are playing for 2028. that vivek ramaswamy, with his cynical plays to the lowest common denominator to conspiracy theories, wants to be secretary of something in the trump administration. you were on this show last week saying you believe firmly that donald trump will be convicted in the federal case against him in the 2020 campaign. is that playing in your decision if you have the momentum, if you have the money, to stay around as long as you can in case that happens, to be the one standing there? >> yes. that's exactly right, willie. that's why anybody who wants to

make sure there is somebody left who actually tells the truth about donald trump and not be afraid to even breathe his name. nikki haley last night was talking about chaos on drama, as if, you know, he's an innocent victim. that's like the arsonist saying, for some reason, burning buildings follow me wherever i go. i mean, we know why donald trump has this chaos and drama. it is because he creates it. you want someone to be around when this thing really falls apart, then go to chris christie.com, donate to me. keep me on the stage, and keep me in this debate. i'm going to do it. i told you, willie, last week, that you have to be around the rim to get the rebound. when donald trump is convicted of multiple felonies so he can't even vote for himself if he were the nominee, people are going to remember that i've been the guy since early june that has been telling the truth about him consistently, whether i get cheered like i do in the new hampshire or whether i get some

boos like i did last night in alabama. if you're afraid of getting booed, imagine what you're going to feel when vladimir putin tries to undress you the first time sitting at a bilateral meeting. >> governor, sharpton here. one, i think you have done very well in terms of the campaign that you launched. i used to tell you the stories of james brown bringing me to vegas, the difference between the lounge act and a showroom act. i think you've been on the showroom stage, and your opponents are lounge acts, frankly. you and haley seem to be the once who belong on the main stage. if you were to win the nomination, what would be your main issues to deal with the incumbent president, joe biden? i mean, at the end of the day, i don't think any of them have made the case on why they should not only stand up to trump, but

how they'd oppose joe biden. what would you bring to the november election if, despite all the polls, you end up being the nominee? >> well, al, look, i think that president biden has failed the country in terms of his economic policies. he's been spending us into oblivion. i didn't think anybody could be as bad as trump in terms of adding to our national debt, but he's proving to be a very able opponent in running up debt. he's spending money at a covid level pace that should not be spent, and it is helping to continue to the inflation that people are dealing with all over this country. if you talk to folks like i do on the campaign trail every day, that's an enormous issue to them. and let's get to the truth about joe biden, too, al. he's just not up to it. i mean, at 81 years old, i've known joe biden for four years, i met him when i was a junior at

the university of delaware. we both went to the same educational institution. we're both fighting blue hens. that was, at that time, a sharp, articulate guy, whether you agreed with him or not. father time, we're trying to avoid talking to trump, it does catch up to everybody. >> well -- >> and -- >> let me ask you, governor. would you not say the same thing about donald trump, if you believe that about joe biden? has father time caught up with donald trump? >> i did last night, joe. >> so baffled his brain and stirred his brain that he thinks he is running against barack obama and is worried about world war ii starting. >> i actually said it last night, joe, and i was the only one who would be willing to say that he was unfit for office. absolutely, i'll repeat it again this morning. >> yeah. >> he's unfit, not only by his age, joe, but he is unfit by his temperament. when you say, "i am your retribution," you and i know him well, he ain't going to be my

retribution or yours. he'll be his own retribution because he only cares about himself. >> exactly. >> he doesn't care about the american people, not one bit. >> all right. republican presidential candidate chris christie, thank you so much. we're so sorry we didn't have time for mika's question about abortion for you. please come back. >> hey. >> she'll ask it again. >> yeah, we'll get there. >> i missed it, joe. i really did. mika, mika, love ya like i always do. >> okay. next time, chris christie, thank you. [ laughter ] >> john heilemann. >> you can ask it again. john heilemann, let me ask you quickly, where are we in this campaign? we've seen some polls out, once again, showing donald trump doing very well against joe biden in swing states. what's your take on that? did those polls mean anything? is the biden campaign responding the way they should? >> look, i think that if you

look at all that polling, and we discussed this on the show before, it's the underlining, things that underline the polling is the stuff the biden campaign has to be worried about, not how he performs in a head-to-head race by trump. we don't know where the world will be next november. there are a lot of people in the country who are concerned about the fact joe biden is too old to be president. it is a political challenge. is there a way to address it? there has to be. the number goes in one way, and it's in the wrong direction for him. people say, someone over 80 years old is not able to be president. it doesn't mean you vote for donald trump. if you want to win a close race, they have to get black voters, hispanic voters, young voters to show up in the states where margins were slim. you know this, joe. that's a challenge that can be met by the biden campaign. i think they still have time to figure that out. the focus on trump, the focus on the large stakes is the right

thing to do. the question is, over the course of these months, as things come into focus, and it turns out to be donald trump, are they going to be able to make -- again, some of the arguments you made over and over again, about how trump and biden are basically the same age, those are going to play in there. they have real challenges if you look at the declines in some of the voting groups. those are the things you're looking at. the underlying stuff is more important than head-to-head races. where do you stand with the voting groups you need to come out in. >> trends with younger voters, black americans, hispanic americans, the biggest problem is still inflation. he needs inflation to go down. >> another huge thing. >> that sweeps across every demographic. the economy is doing well. inflation is still hammering people who are on the margins. that's, i think, the difference between now and next year. that's going to be the differencemaker. john heilemann, thank you so much, as always. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. mika, what's next? >> ahead on "morning joe," we'll talk to steve rattner about what is driving the apparent

pessimism surrounding what is, by most metrics, an otherwise strong and growing economy. plus, former british prime minister david cameron will be our guest as he visits washington for the first time since his return to government, this time as foreign secretary. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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with this guy? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache! oh, look! a bibu. [limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ 34 past the hour. live look at the white house. the newly appointed british foreign secretary, david cameron, who previously served as prime minister of the uk from 2010 to 2016, is in the u.s. this week for his first visit in this new role. yesterday on capitol hill, he met with house speaker mike johnson. the trip is to reaffirm

britain's support for ukraine and discuss the war in the middle east. foreign secretary cameron joins us now. thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. given the meeting with the speaker of the house, and i know you also have meetings with do secretary of state, are you hearing the feedback, especially from members of congress, that you want to hear about aid to ukraine? what are the challenges? >> well, there's a lot of support for ukraine, and rightly so. russia's invasion was the most appalling breach of another country's sovereignty and territorial integrity. it is right we support ukraine. obviously, there's some intricacies with your politics about how a bill goes through and what other issues are connected. i'm just making the simple point, that if you add up the economies of the countries supporting ukraine, we outmatch russia 30:1. we've got to make that difference count. if we do that, we can make sure that putin doesn't have a win. if he has a win, the only people

that will be smiling will be president putin and president xi. i don't think any of us want that to happen. >> mr. foreign secretary, i was speaking to a senior white house official just last night on this very subject. they, of course, want this aid to ukraine to go through, but there's real worry that it may not clear the congress here. and there is fear that if that were to happen, some of the european allies who have stood by ukraine at this point may begin to melt away. perhaps not the united kingdom, which has been steadfast, but other countries already waffling. they'd look to the u.s. if the u.s. were to stop back in kyiv, they might choose to interpret that as a signal to do the same. to you share those fears? what could be done? >> i do share those fears. i mean, what the united states does is hugely important, not just for making sure that all the european allies stay on board, but also for the morale of the ukrainian people. i was there in my first week as foreign secretary, and they are fighting incredibly hard. they are very united. they're also doing a great job. of course, we talk about there

being something of a stalemate on land, but, actually, on the black sea, they have pushed the russian navy right back across the black sea, sinking many of their ships. the trade lines are open. their ships are sailing across the black sea. the ukrainian economy can grow and help to pay for more of its own defense. i think this is absolutely the moment to get behind them. i very much hope they will. >> good morning. it feels odd not to call you mr. prime minister, but we're adjusting. could you explain, and i'm sure you had to do some of this to parliament and to the british people, as our leaders have done to the american people, as well, just why you believe it is important? this is a lot of money. we're talking more than $100 billion of taxpayer money. there are americans now almost two years in to say, "how long are we going to continue to fund this with all the problems we are having at home?" why is this helpful to the uk, to the united states? >> i absolutely understand those concerns, and we should always

be careful with how we spend our taxpayers' number. fundamentally, if we don't stop putin in ukraine, he will be back for more. we've seen that from him in the past. ultimately, yes, there is about european security, but it's also about american security. if we don't win in ukraine and we let put have been a win, he then attacks a nato ally, that is going to draw america in even more deeply, not just in terms of money but also in terms of american lives. if you stand back and think about it, in a way, america has spent maybe an extra 5% of its defense budget, but with that money, it's actually helped to destroy about 50% of russia's pre-war military capability, without the loss of a single american life. i think this is a great investment in european security and american security. of course, you know, others around the world are watching this. iran, that is doing so much damage in the middle east, is also providing a huge amount of weapons for russia. other countries are going to watch what we do here, and i

know it is difficult. i know there are other issues we have to address as politicians. we've all got issues with dealing with immigration, with making sure our economies grow in a way that help those left behind. we must deal with those while also investing in our long-term security. we won't be better off if we allow putin to rampage across different countries in europe. >> mr. secretary, as you know, prior to your becoming foreign secretary, president biden pulled together the strong collection of nato countries on behalf of ukraine and kept them solidified. now we seem to be on the verge, perhaps, of the american congress not providing funding for ukraine to go further, at least funding through maybe the end of the year or certainly into next year, which group of european nations, or maybe it's one nation, steps up to lead the effort to keep ukraine in the fight? would it be great britain? would it be germany? who would it be? >> what i found since coming

back into politics is actually the strong degree of unity there is across the european nations for investing more in defense, which is welcome, but also for backing ukraine. i know there is a concern here, is europe doing enough? actually, if you add up the military and the financial and economic support, the european nations, including britain, are now doing more than the united states, and rightly so. it is our neighborhood. i think the extra american investment that we hope will go through this year will actually, you know, create further european impetus. in terms of who is actually stepping forward, i would say, i'm the prettyish foreign secretary, so you expect me to say this, but i've been pleased to see coming back into government that we were the first to provide the anti-tank weapons, first to provide long-range artillery, first to provide tanks. on every occasion, there was a worry, will it lead to an escalation? it happens. it was to back the ukrainian military to do the extraordinary things they've done on the

battlefield, fighting off one of the largest armies in the world. they've been incredibly effective. i think it is a good investment. the european nations are stepping up. obviously, america remains the indispensable power, and we need you there with those big resources. >> british foreign secretary, former prime minister of the united kingdom, david cameron, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. >> pleasure. all right. jonathan lemire, the lead in the "wall street journal" as well as "the new york times" is, in fact, what you brought up, the republican party blocking aid to ukraine. the republican party blocking aid to israel. can you believe that? they're blocking aid to israel and blocking aid to ukraine. that said, i'm sure your sources, like my sources inside the white house, are positive, feeling positive that this bill is going to pass. they took note that james langford yesterday, someone

usually very critical of the biden administration, said that they were heartened by what they heard from president biden yesterday. they do think a deal is in the making. >> yeah, a few things at play here. we should start by noting this, it is december 7th, two months since the terror attacks. the united states congress still hasn't sent a dime to israel. not a dime, two months. what is happening now, though, is a stalemate, but there is a glimmer of hope. joe, yesterday, of course, the senate talks fell apart. maybe that is the darkness before the dawn. but there is some thought they could be revived. republicans are going to go back to democrats, republican senators, per sources, will go back to democrats with a revised border deal. they want to get some border security funding as part of this foreign aid package. there is a sense that maybe more moderate, it'll be less extreme than what the house wants, speaker johnson wants, but maybe palatable there that enough democrats can sign on. we heard from senator murphy of connecticut express fear, one of the reasons the democrats don't want to go onto this border

package is they're afraid of the tools they'd give a president trump, were trump able to return to office and inherit this deal. but time is short. obviously, once we head into january, there is another government spending crisis on the horizon. the government could run out of money. there is grong calls for president biden to be more personally involved. yesterday, he gave a speech, his first real plic remarks on ukraine in some time,n which he made it crystal clear, the need for this funding. some democratic and republican senators think the president should be more actively involved in these negotiations. we're in a waiting game, joe and mika. there is a sense talks will resume, and there's some hope something will get done before the winter break. >> all right. let's bring in former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. not at the southwest wall today. very disconcerting. >> yeah. >> disappointing. you know, talking about the economy, the state of the economy, how americans feel about the economy, people are going to vote in the election

how they feel about the economy. i'm reminded of the old joke, what are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes? you're here to tell us that voters are believing their lying eyes. >> yeah, look -- >> instead of the reality that's right before them. >> yes. there's a lot of polling data on this, and it basically shows 23% of americans think we're on the right track. the rest think we're on the wrong track. some of the worst numbers we've ever seen. they think inflation is going up. it's actually going down. they think after inflation, incomes are going down. they're actually going up. i have a piece that is in "the new york times" op-ed today to try explain, why is that? i think there's two reasons why people are so grumpy about the economy. the first is because of inflation. two-thirds of americans of voting age have never seen inflation above 4%. >> right. >> you and i lived through it. we know about it. we know how to deal with it. for them, this has been a real wakeup call. they blame the president more than the republicans.

if you remember, the president came into office talking about jobs. we had a huge set of package for jobs. inflation was a problem. republicans are basically trying to pin the inflation on him. >> by the way, inflation is -- again, we talked about age in the last segment. seems to me, from what i'm hearing, inflation really is the underlying issue that probably is making more of a difference in these approval rating numbers than anything else. inflation is down 2%, 3%. add that to the 9%, to the 7%, people are paying a lot more than they paid in 2019. that said, look at the numbers out there. people just believe one thing after another about the economy that's wrong. >> they do. now, on the inflation, as i said, they do pin that on biden for reasons we can understand, if you go back in history.

the polling data is very clear on that. underlying all this, in my opinion anyway, is a deep pessimism about the future. people are more worried about the future than they've ever been. 21%, only 21% of americans think their kids are going to live better than they centage since 1990. >> can you give us the stats you were telling us off the air quickly? >> basically, it's a slightly different point but we can talk about it. people essentially think they're not living as well as they were 30 years ago. 56% of people think they were wealthier 30 years ago. that's simply not true. 51% think the unemployment rate is higher than it was 30 years ago. that is simply not true. 68% think there's more poverty than there was 30 years ago. >> not even close. >> not close. >> 90% think prices have risen

faster than wages. not true. 73% think inflation has gone up, not down, over the past year. that is obviously not true. so you've got all that going on. as i said, i think underlying it is a deep pessimism about the future and about their kids. 2 1 %. there is a higher percentage of kids today living with their parents than any time since the great depression. so there is some reality out there in terms of -- we were talking about this off-air -- some reality out there in terms of kids and how hard it is today for kids to get started. i can remember when i got started as a young "new york times" reporter. i felt like i lived pretty well on $17,500 a year. today, kids don't think they can and they really can't. >> you anticipated my question, steve, which is, this idea that about half of people in this country 18 to 29 live at home, live with their families. what goes into that? high rent and these interest rates that prevent most people,

frankly, from getting into the housing market right now. do you see a change coming in any of that so that these people can be -- can get their own places and be more energized about their lives and careers? >> interest rates are starting to come down. the mortgage rate that has gone from 8% to 7%. doesn't sound great but it is moving in the right direction. the most fundamental problem where i talk about, two problems in the piece, one we have talked about a lot, which is the debt. i think people, they're not economists, but i think they understand the idea that we're piling up all this debt. it is going to have to be dealt with somehow, someway. the other problem that doesn't get much attention, and i don't want to get too wonky here, is productivity. the economy getting more productive, more efficient. the productivity rate has been dropping steadily for the last 20, 30, 40 years. that's what increases people's standard of living. if we don't become more efficient, more productive as an economy, obviously -- >> what does that mean, steve, productivity? >> it literally means, how much does a worker produce in an hour

at a factory? it depends on the amount of technology they have available, the amount of training they have available, investment, regulation, and they're not being -- it is a very deep-seeded, long running problem. think back post world war ii, we had this incredible rising set of standards of living. it's because the economy was getting much more efficient. that's steadily, steadily declined to a little over 1% at the moment. it's very hard for people's standard of livings to go up. >> steve, what do you therefore advise, as i'm reading your op-ed. what do you advise the biden campaign and the biden administration ought to deal with? yes, the facts are what they are, we're doing better than we think. at the same time, we understand kids are staying home and can't afford to get to a new house, or there are challenges we face, and address the future. i think i look a lot in the black community. unemployment among blacks is lower than it's been in decades.

you can't convince that of people when they have their grown kids staying at the house and they don't feel they know what will happen when their grandkids go to college. don't you think the lack of addressing that is part of the problem that adds to the dismay of what is probably a good economic record but doesn't make me feel good about tomorrow? >> that's exactly the point, rev. i don't think that they've laid out, and it is hard to do, a vision for the future in which they can -- i wouldn't say guarantee, but at least give people hope, promise that their lives will be better and their kids' lives will be better. all those kids living at home with their parents will be able to afford a house, jobs, and so on and so when the president tries to make it about his opponent rather than about himself because it's going to be hard to convince people that whether it's age or the economic record, that biden

is somebody they are really pushing for. >> all right. steve ratner, as always, thank you so much. mika, this is a great challenge. the economy, inflation, how people feel about the economy, how people feel about their own homes as the rev said. the economic numbers can be looking pretty great on tv and in the newspaper. >> i know. >> if your kids -- if your older kid's living with you, well, you might be going, well, yeah. okay. that's great, but man, i'm not feeling that at home. >> yeah. no, there are a lot of dimensions to this. we'll keep talking about it. also, coming up on "morning joe," some hostages released by hamas are now criticizing benjamin netanyahu. we'll show you what they had to say during a very tense meeting with the israeli prime minister. "morning joe" is coming right back. g right back keep wo if this is as good as it gets.

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swung it, and save on the rebound. it's buried home. 1-0 lead. and in the city of angels, look who has wings again. flying high, this time to ohio, and a return trip to mls cup is l.a. fc. >> molino. that's back and in. ramirez has done it. >> it's acosta, it's over. columbus comes back and will head to the mls cup. >> some of the highlights from last week's semifinal games in the mls playoffs on saturday. the columbus crew and the los angeles football club will face off to win this trophy. she's a beauty. that's in the 2023 mls cup. >> you can't touch it. you got to wear gloves we were informed. just like the stanley cup.

>> you can't -- you have to wear gloves to touch that. >> joining us now the commissioner of major league soccer, don garver. great to have you with us. >> exciting to be here. exciting time for soccer in america. you got your -- >> i don't have a dog in the fight, but i guess i do. i'm l.a., and joe, you're going columbus, huh? >> and, and right here, look where mika's going. look at this. >> oh, wait. >> still working there. >> i love it. that's cute. i'll take that. >> you know, this is the culmination of a great year for us. we brought lionel messi io our league. we launched an in-season tournament by the way, and now our tournament begins at the mexican league. stop our season in the summer and we have this incredible tournament. we have a new tm in st. louis that sold out every game and did really well on the field. a global partnership, the only

league that has a global partnership in the world with apple. it's now culminating in our championship game. it's an exciting time. soccer in america's on the rise, and we're happy to be a key driver of that. >> have you mentioned messi? have you been able to quantify the impact he had on the mls and soccer in america? >> you know, it's an unprecedented opportunity for a young league to have the best athlete of all-time playing in your league. ticket sales have skyrocketed. our global audience has improved dramatically. nowe can have a game that anybody in the world can see the best player in the world. it's given us a level of attention that sort of elevates everything that we have been trying to say, that this country is a soccer nation. we're working hard to sort of elevate the sport with a league that people care about with a guy that is happy to be here. yesterday announced the time of the year athlete, and he loves it which is important.

>> it's so fascinating. of course, mls pre-messi was the fastest growing soccer league in the world, but this is only making it grow more quickly. i will say though, i've heard so many good things about the beckham documentary on netflix. i watched the beckham documentary on netflix, and then at the end, the surprise ending, david beckham shows up in miami. he's talking about getting messi down there, and you seem hip down there, but there's something that beckham said. of all the championships he won, of all the championships he's won, he talked about winning the mls trophy. he said it was perhaps the trophy he was the proudest of for a lot of personal reasons. i thought that was very moving. >> well, you know, that documentary was fantastic, and it spoke about the character of david, and without david, messi doesn't come to major league soccer. he's the part owner of our team in miami, but i think when you come to a league where you're continually trying to elevate what is happening in the sport here, it's very different than the rest of the leagues around the world. you're working hard in

conditions that were different when david was playing at manchester united or, you know, messi was playing in bars low -- barcelona, but they come because they want to be part of that legacy. i remember handing that trophy to david, and he had tears in his eyes, and i think at some point we'll hand a cup trophy to lionel messi. we handed the league's cup to him, and these are important parts of their legacy-building. >> you know i'm a baseball guy. >> i know that. >> i got to tell you, soccer, everybody knows the growth of soccer. all you have to do is drive by playgrounds and kids are playing soccer. i have a 5-year-old grandson, emmett, who's a baseball guy. okay? two weeks ago he came home from school and asked his father to get him a messi jersey, and it's amazing to me the quickness of the growth of soccer among young people today. where was it going? >> well, you know, it's going to

continue to take your grandson, and when he grows up, he's going to have the sport as a part of his life, and you growing up in boston and being so connected to the club there, you know, sports is about a shared experience with your family, and if you have something that takes you out of that zone, and lionel messi is doing that for your grandson. he's doing it for millions and millions of people in our country, but imagine what it's like when copa america is here this summer, a big international tournament, and messi is playing for argentina. when the world cup is here in '26, and messi's playing in argentina, and young american guys who are in our league who are playing for the united states, all of this is going to elevate the sport so that when the next guy is sitting around, and he's saying i'm a big fan of the new england revolution and my son and my grandkids want to have a jersey from that particular club. messi will be with us for a number of years. we can't keep enough of adidas

messi jerseys in stock. it's the number one selling jersey in the world. more than the nba jersey or nfl jersey. it's going to continue to happen for years to come. >> very exciting time for soccer and an exciting game coming up this weekend. the 2023 mls cup final kicks off saturday at 4:00 p.m. eastern. joe and i are going to put on the white gloves, and hoist the trophy. mls commissioner, don garber. >> i think the brzezinski jersey may actually compete with messi's. >> don, thank you so much. the third hour of "morning joe" starts right now. >> you do this every debate. you go out on the stump and you say something. all of us see it on video. we confront you on the debate stage. you say you didn't say it, and then you back away, and i want to say what -- >> i'll tell you what i said, chris. >> i'm not done yet. now look. >> hold on. hold on. [ cheers and applause ] >> this is nonsense. >> let me say something. this is the fourth debate. the fourth debate that you would

be voted in the first 20 minutes as the most obnoxious blow-hard in america. so shut up. we're now 25 minutes into this debate and he has insulted nikki haley's basic intelligence, not her positions, her basic intelligence. she doesn't know regions. she wouldn't be able to find something on a map that his 3-year-old could find. look. if you want to disagree on issues, that's fine, and nikki and i disagree on some issues, but i'll tell you this. i've known for her 12 years which is longer than he's even started to vote in a republican primary, and while we disagree about some issues and we disagree about who should be president of the united states, what we don't disagree on is this is a smart, accomplished woman you should stop insulting. >> okay. republican presidential candidate chris christie saying, i think what everyone's thinking. attacking one challenger while coming to the defense of

another. we'll have more from the fourth gop debate. the final one before the iowa caucuses. good morning, and welcome to "morning jojoe." it is thursday, december 7th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have john halman, host of the fast politics podcast, sending me dog pictures early in the morning. we have the president of the national action network and host of nbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton, and jonathan lemire. we also have the american presidency at vanderbilt university, historian jon meacham. >> what are you saying that about? >> we got meacham here. we agreed. >> he brings the gravitas. >> the best title. rogers professor.

>> on this december 7th -- >> he's so important. >> in 2023, we have lemire here to talk about vivek. willie. it was a very interesting moment there. chris christie did i think what everybody in the room wanted him to do. at the same time, you had -- it's a very interesting dynamic where he was coming to the defense of a woman, which again, you know, in the south, you know, antiquated. that's what some of us have been taught to do. he's from jersey, so he doesn't have that excuse. but i love what he did. at the same time, it was kind of -- it put nikki in a weird position, and you could see her discomfort. appreciating it, but at the same time, probably thinking, i can take care of myself. >> and she can. it was this parallel universe last night where nikki haley was the front-runner in the primary race to be the republican

nominee. ron desantis going after vivek, going after christie, criticizing her a little bit, but then defending her in that moment. as chris christie said time and again, we're living in this fantasy world where donald trump isn't beating us by 40 points. why won't you, governor desantis, or ambassador haley or you, vivek, talk about the guy we're all trying to defeat? or maybe you're all just playing for second place. you're running for 2028. vivek, you're probably looking for a job in a new trump administration. >> or on a podcast. >> or on a podcast. why are we living in a fantasy world where donald trump is not the front-runner? >> i would say nikki haley is a rising star. i've heard from so many people who have never voted republican before, and please don't tell me all her positions. i know. i'm just saying, when you have somebody connecting like that, with people who may disagree with her political positions, but they still say, i like her.

i like how she stands up for herself. she seems pretty sane and rational. i may not agree with her position on abortion, but you know what? if she's at 15 weeks, and roe's at 22, 23 weeks, and she says we can figure out a way to bring america together on one of the more contentious issues, i know that doesn't sound good to the extremists on both sides. that's really refreshing to about 80% of americans. so in an alternative reality where donald trump's not sitting at 60%, and if for some reason, something happened to donald trump where, i don't know, he couldn't run, she's -- we have been around this for a while. her star seems to be on the rise, doesn't it? >> it absolutely does. she has real political skills, and i think she showed that last night by not going to the kiddie table and fighting with vivek and really staying on the stage where people can actually see her, not only as someone

likable, even if you disagree with her as i probably disagree with her on everything, but that she's likable and she belongs at a certain level of respect. i remember when we were fighting the confederate flag in south carolina when she was governor. >> right. >> and we would attack her, and then the charleston massacre happened where this racist killed these people in the church, and we did the show down there, and i remember i went to speak at one of the funerals, and she was there, and i said, and governor haley, we're glad you're here. i've never met you. i've marched toward you on the outside, but i've never met you and she got up behind me and said, if i knew you were out there marching, reverend, i would have had you come in for lemonade and given you a hug. she hugged me at the funeral. i said in her ear, you got skills because it was a move that somebody understands. that gave me an appreciation for her that she now is

demonstrating to the nation. >> and, you know, it is interesting that nikki haley again, is -- is battling along with ron desantis, chris christie for first place -- for second place right now. there may be a pathway for her to win new hampshire. there may be, you know, new hampshire's interesting this year. you don't have a democratic race. so you have a lot of independents that aren't going to be splitting between republican voting and democratic voting, but she has right now, and again, i know she's at 7% in national polls. i also followed enough campaigns as you all have too to see when people start talking about somebody. that's usually a leading indicator. you see the polls go up, but you look at the debate last night, the men screaming. you look at the -- that's the latest national -- if we can get the latest new hampshire, that would be great. you look at ron desantis and gavin newsom shouting at each other with sean hannity shouting

in the middle. i'm serious. there's a lot of men out there shouting, a lot of buffoonery, a lot of really loud voices, and so if politics is about contrast, then what a contrast nikki haley has to every major politician they see on the air these days. >> well, there's a lot of contrast. i would say, you know, that nikki haley's rise in this -- in this republican race has not been a rise that's been based on her being particularly tactful or low-key. she's been, you know, someone who, you know, she attacked ramaswamy in the last debate and called him scum. she's gotten somewhere by being tough and having good debate moments. one of the questions people have is -- every single debate she's gotten a bump. will she get one from last night? i don't know the answer to that

question. there's no doubt, whether you call it a fantasy world as willie did, or whether you call it 2016, they're living in a world where they're all trying to figure out -- they're playing bracket, you know, ncaa bracketology. they think there's this one bracket that's them, and then there's trump and trump's got a bye in the first round in their view, and they're going to try to get him one-on-one. that did not work out well for anybody in 2016. they all thought that was the way to play it. didn't work out in 2016. the reason that haley is so interesting is because of south carolina where because it's -- the amount of caucuses will be a gimme for trump. they're kind of rigged for him to win. if she were to win new hampshire and the next big contest a month later, is in her home state, that puts her in a different position than anybody else who ran against trump in 2016. trump went down to south carolina, and that was where she consolidated and you never look back. if she can take him on, really take him on if she comes out in

iowa and new hampshire in a good place with 2-1, and then gets him on home turf, that's the scenario, right? that's the scenario she's thinking about. the rest of them, it's not clear what they're thinking about. >> right, and willie, that is -- you think about it, and again, it's a long shot now, but her pathway forward is to win new hampshire. >> yeah. >> i know a lot of her people are saying f she comes in second in new hampshire -- no. it's over. if she can win new hampshire and she's got a month to do it, and then there's, i think, a month between new hampshire and south carolina. then she has a month. we're all going to be circling that date because if she beats donald trump in new hampshire and then in her home state in south carolina, she goes into super tuesday with wins behind her, and then anything's possible. if she loses her home state, it's over. >> and she's trailing badly in her home state. >> right. >> it's right now. she's got time, and she wins new hampshire, things certainly change, but even in her home state, the one she would have to

count on to win, she's trailing badly to donald trump who's popular there. buried in all these polls, molly, that we look at, these head to head biden polls, nikki haley does better than any other republican against joe biden if she can ever get there, where he's neck and neck with trump, but trump/biden, and everybody is within the margin of error. she beats biden by five, six, seven points. to joe's point about independents who are fed up with, well, i could live with nikki haley. >> i have been hearing from a lot of people too, and i have sort of a more liberal friend group of people who are, like, oh, if nikki haley could be the nominee. i mean, look. there's long been thought this conventional wisdom that the only way that there's ever going to be a woman president is if she's republican, and she reads in a much more -- in a much less threatening way than hillary clinton. we can get into that, but i think for me as someone who's pretty woke as a feminist so to

speak, i really thought last night she did really well, and i was actually kind of moved by chris christie, and i have been, like, the biggest chris christie critic, but i was actually kind of moved by him stopping the tape. >> me too. >> and being lovely. mika, didn't you relate to that in a weird way? >> so i did, and i'll tell you why, because, you know, i think that women can point out sexism and other things, ageism, whatever, but when men do it as well, it's even better, and i appreciated it, and i thought, you know, it was generous. he didn't have to do it. he could have left her standing alone to all of this, but he kind of pointed it out and put a full stop on it, and yes she can do it for herself. she's already proven that. she's taken down that ramaswamy guy many times to massive applause in these debates. i think it's gotten to the point where everybody needs to sort of point out what they see, and i

thought what chris christie did sort of reminded me about sort of what i tell women in, you know, my know-your-value community. we have to have a voice, but we also have to have a very open mind to men who step up for us because that's part of it, you know? and i think it was great. i think it was great, and, you know, joe, you and i have talked a lot about this. i know it's sort of a southern thing, but you're talking about it there as well, and i understand that, but it meant a lot to me when he did that. >> yeah. it really did, and one man who's always stood up for me, jonathan lemire, jonathan. >> chivalry's not dead. >> chivalry's not dead. >> it wasn't chivalry. it was pointing out stupidity. >> in the rougher parts of boston proper. so john lemire, obviously nikki haley does better against biden than any of the other

candidates. is the white house looking at that? are they just hoping that they get donald trump because he's obviously by far the weakest republican candidate? >> no. >> joe, you rarely need defense. rarely. >> oh, thank you so much. >> the white house certainly believes, and those in the biden campaign operation believe that donald trump is going to be the nominee. they also have been pretty candid about it, privately anyway, for a year or more that's the candidate they want to face. they think that biden has the best chance of defeating trump than he would any other republican, and yes. there are democrats in this conversation who get alarmed when they think about the possibility of a nikki haley nomination for the republicans, but short of a black swan political event, that is very, very hard to see right now despite the momentum she has to be the trump alternative. this is a campaign, and we've heard from the president. i thought it was pretty telling about what the biden operation was say ing about the 2024 election. the biden team seizes on trump's

comments about wanting to be a dictator for day, and for them, this is affirmation, and validation of how they see this fight. they understand that the economy will be big. of course, abortion rights will be big. there are other issues that will sway voters next year, but they think it's going to be fought about democracy again, much like 2020 was, much like in many ways that 2022 was in some ways, and they feel like this is the campaign that biden himself personally -- people close to him have told me this is what he wanted to talk about. donald trump remains much like he was in 2020, a threat to the soul of the nation, to quote a phrase from someone else on this program right now, and this is someone -- this threat has only grown. as biden has told people if trump were to win again, he would likely have at least one republican house of congress to go with him. he's got a conservative supreme court, and a gop who forgave him for january 6th and only made him more powerful. he's got -- he'll also have the belief that he will have survived.

again, if he wins, he will have survived all these criminal indictments and he'll still emerge as president and have the power of the federal government at his fingertips and that is the clearest and starkest argument they need to make going forward. >> and packing in his administration with people hellbent on retribution as they call it against the deep state, the media, and everybody else. reaching the soul of the nation was invoked. chris christie is the only one making the case that jonathan lemire just talked about, the biden campaign making which is that donald trump is a threat to democracy. here's what chris christie said last night. >> do i think he was kidding when he said he was a dictator? all you have to do is look at the history, and that's why failing to speak out against him, making excuses for him, pretending that somehow he's a victim empowers him. do you want to know where those poll numbers are where they are? because folks like these three guys on the stage make it seechl

like his conduct is acceptable. let me make it clear. his conduct is unacceptable. he's unfit, and be careful of what you are going to get if you ever got another donald trump term. he's letting you know, i am your retribution. you will only be -- >> thank you. >> elizabeth, he will only be his own retribution. he doesn't care for the american people. it's donald trump first. >> thank you, governor christie. governor desantis. governor desantis. thank you. thank you. >> so john, a mix of some applause that morphed into boos there in the arena in tuscaloosa when he went after -- and chris christie became sort of a moderator and turned to governor desantis at one point and said, do you think donald trump is fit for office? none of the people on that panel would answer the question. >> yeah. i think christie's doing an extraordinary service to the country by standing in rooms that probably are not tuning in very carefully to everything willie geist thinks and does. >> deeply offended. >> i know.

about making this case that in many ways, it's not that trump's on trial. it's that the republican party's on trial, you know? there's nothing unclear about this at all. he wants to be an authoritarian figure. desantis, i think last night made a case which is particularly unsettling, which is that, well, trump's not very good at it. so therefore it's okay was the implication, right? that well, he didn't do x and y. he said he was going to do this, and then he didn't. wow. well, you know, that's -- that's a novel way of looking at it. i think what governor christie's doing is important. there were sort of three different stories on that stage it seemed to me. christie's telling the truth as he sees it. i happen to agree with him, so therefore i think he's very wise in this case. haley is threading a needle, but

a recognizable republican figure. desantis, a little less so, and then we're off on jab -- january 6th being an inside job which is among one of the more irresponsible things said. to me, look. what makes america work, what makes the constitution work is a functional two-party system. we can argue about whether that's a good idea or not, about whether the electoral college is a mistake, all that, but basically this is what we have right now, and you need two parties that are basically conversant with reason, and with the republican of party, with the exception of christie, they're ambivalent at best, and at worst, hostile to reason, and that's what we have. i have a feeling we're going to end up with a very stark choice next fall. >> jon, there are days that forever change america.

of course, september 11, 2001. november 22, 1963. you can draw lines straight through that date and write volumes of books about the america before and the america after kennedy was assassinated, and of course, december 7, 1941. perhaps the most momentous date in the 20th century because i was looking at headlines just now to see what people were writing about this date, and i found a perfect one that explains what the japanese attack on pearl harbor did, not just to our fleet in the pacific, but to every single american. the headline comes from the sheboygan press which says, i'm thinking about my family in

georgia, my 17-year-old uncle at the time, uncle bill and thinking about my grandmother on her knees praying every night that he would return home safely four years later. just it's amazing, what this one attack did to every single american family, and also to the direction of the united states for the 80 years that followed. >> it's, you know, as president roosevelt said, the initial draft said that today will be a day that will live in world history. in one of the great edits fdr wrote the date which will live in infamy. it's vital to, i think, this -- the implications from this date

elevated america to an unrivalled, unparalleled position of power. imagine four years later we had the capacity at our hands to destroy human life. we had that much power because of the manhattan project. you had this remarkable, rapid rise to a dizzying pinnacle of power, but we were dragged into this. we were dragged into a fundamental conflict between democracy and dictatorship, between the enlightenment and fascism. we were dragged into it, not only by the japanese attack today, but five days later, by adolf hitler's declaring war on the united states. we did not declare war on nazi germany until nazi germany declared war on us. so as churchill once said, you could always count on the americans to do the right thing once we've exhausted every other possibility, and i think that that's an important thing for us to remember, not to therefore

lower our expectations of ourselves, but to remember that even the greatest generation as our friend tom brocoll called it, talking about our family. my grandfathers were in the war. even they were not early on this story. they weren't early converts to the defense of democratic values versus the horrors of dictatorship, particularly in europe, but we got it right, and so what that tells us, it seems to me, is that if they got it right, and they were fallen, fail, and fallible people, we as fallen, frail, and fallible people, can get our own time right. coming up, an update on yesterday's mass shooting in nevada where three people were killed at a las vegas university. what police are saying about the suspected gunman next on "morning joe." ted gunman next on "morning joe."

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three people were killed and another was injured in a mass shooting yesterday on the campus of the university of nevada, las vegas. law enforcement sources say the shooter was a man in his 60s. he was killed during a shootout with police. the shooting began around 11:45 local time at the business school at unlv. the gunman went to several floors before he was killed outside of the building. joining us now live from las vegas, nbc news correspondent, jay gray. what's the latest there? >> reporter: yeah, willie. it all happened just behind the student union which is just over our shoulder here in a grassy area, an area that by the way that was hosting an event with a lot of students on the grounds there. we are told by witnesses that that man was armed with a pistol when he opened fire just before noon, and students scattered, moving into the union, moving

back into the business school, and other buildings on campus barricaing and waiting. some for hours. many eventually escorted out by police officers here with their hands up, and some walking past the three victims who were killed. we know that police arrived just minutes after the first shots were fired, and engaged with the gunman. they say they were fired on first and returned that fire, killing the gunman. we don't know the names of the victims at this point, don't flow the name of the suspect. we do know that much of the campus remains closed. investigators searching there, and at a residence in nearby henderson for any evidence that may help them understand how and why the tragedy unfolded here. we should also point out that officials with unlv have said classes obviously are canceled for the rest of this week. now next week was supposed to be

finals week, and they haven't decided at this point how they are going to handle that. they say they'll make that decision in the coming days. a lot of the faculty and staff have been told to stay home as well, and work from home if they have things that they must get done, but this is all really still influx as you might imagine. it hasn't even been 24 hours since the attack. one other thing we should mention, counsellors will be on hand for students, faculty, staff, anyone who feels like they need someone to talk to after the attack here, willie. >> jay gray in las vegas for us this morning. jay, thanks so much. meanwhile in texas, police have arrested a man after a shooting spree left six people dead in that state. nbc's morgan cheskey has more there. >> reporter: in texas, police poring over five crime scenes in five hours all connected to a single gunman. >> we strongly believe one suspect is responsible for all of the incidents. >> reporter: authorities identifying the suspect as shane

james, a 34-year-old now charged with capital murder who served in the army as an infan tri officer as recently as 2015. his shooting spree began tuesday morning at an austin high school. >> aisd officer has apparently been shot. >> reporter: opening fire on a resource officer, wounding him. this man knew this wasn't a drill. >> you hear lockdown over the intercom. >> yes. >> what goes through your head? >> keep the kids safe. just take action, protect the kids mainly. >> reporter: no students were harmed, but nearby, less than an hour later -- >> i thought i heard something like fireworks or something. pop, pop, pop. >> reporter: a shooting in south austin, leaving two dead. followed just hours later by another shooting. police reporting a cyclist wounded near a highway. finally tuesday evening, a crucial burglary call. >> officer needs assistance. officer needs assistance. shots fired. >> reporter: police arresting james after they say he shot an officer and killed two more

people. san antonio authorities connecting james to another homicide 60 miles away. a couple found dead inside their home. >> these are believed to be the parents of the suspect that's currently in custody in travis county. >> reporter: six alleged murders and still no known motive. >> wonderful people. every time i talk about it, it hurts me. they were wonderful people. good man. >> thank you for that report. i cannot help but think about -- look at these stories and think about the quick response by the police officers. i talked about 9/11. i remember after the attacks of september 11th, the army corps responded within minutes, within minutes. the nypd got the call, raced down there.

reporters even, mika's first day at cbs, came over the radio. she ran 55 blocks, got down there and started reporting. everybody within minutes got to the scene at 9/11. there's a question that continues to hang out in the air uncomfortably about what happened in israel. i still don't understand what happened on october the 7th. i'm looking at a timeline in "the new york times" here. think about this. the attacks in israel started at 6:30 in the morning. 6:30 in the morning. residents went into hiding then. shootings and bombings. 9:30, three hours into the attack, hostages were already being taken to gaza. hostages taken from the

festival. the shootings had already taken place at the festival. this is three hours into the attack. still no response from israel. three hours into the attack. 36 hours into the attack, hostages continued to be taken, attackers continued to terrorize the re israelis, now six hours in, hiding in their homes. whatever children could escape and hide in their safe rooms, desperately trying to get away from the attacks of terror. six hours in. again, let's wake up to this. six hours in. netanyahu's government had not responded to all the rapings, to all the killings, to all the shootings of babies, to the burning of babies alive in their

cribs, to pleas and calls. there's a 67-year-old retired general who was riding his bike. he heard about what was going on, rode his bike home, got a pistol, jumped in his car, grabbed a few people, and started rescuing hostages on his own, and yet it took eight hours after the attack, 8 1/2 hours after the attack that you had evacuations -- final evacuations of some of these places. when did the rescues come? more than 13 hours into the attack. more than 13 hours into the attack for some of these -- some of these areas. more than 20 hours after the attack in other areas.

where is the army? this family after hiding from hamas attackers for five hours, before this woman was shot and killed. a 22-year-old woman, five hours into this siege, into these terror attacks. five hours, in a country no bigger than the size of, what? delaware? no bigger than the size -- come on. where are the answers? don't tell me we have to wait until after netanyahu decides it's time to tell us what happened. five hours, and this poor woman, the dead woman now. this daughter texted her family after hiding from hamas attackers for five hours.

where is the army? she was shot and killed. others hid in the woods, barricaded themselves in safe rooms and waited for as long as 26 hours for the rescuers to come. israeli officials declined to answer questions about the response. yeah, really? in what world? in what world, willie, are they allowed to sit back and say, we don't have to tell you why it took us 26 hours to respond to women being raped, why it took us 13 hours to respond to babies being shot and burned, why it took us five hours to -- didn't even respond in five hours. a poor young woman, 22 years old, hiding from rapists and murderers, begging -- begging her own country. where was her own country? where were the police?

where were the army? where were they, and why don't we have a clear answer to this? >> and the only answer as you said, has been, there already a time to talk about that. right now we've got to root out hamas. we have to defeat hamas. that's prime minister netanyahu's government response. >> what if america took 22 hours to respond to 9/11? >> i'm not saying trust that. that's what they want you to swallow and push it to the side. it's also not like we're talking about some ragtag military. we're talking about the idf and one of the most sophisticated intelligence services on earth which as "the new york times" reported last week, may have known about this a year out. it's an intelligence failure to start with, and with no response, there's no explaining that for a military that good, that sophisticated. i don't know the answer and it's going to be a question. >> they knew that it was coming for a year. they had the attack planned in hand, so when it started to happen, they knew exactly what

was going on, including using rape as a weapon of war, and young women -- we're talking about these women who were raped, who were abused, who hamas treated like animals, paraded them among cheering palestinians. >> that's what makes it even more egregious. they knew about it. some are trying to say, well, we thought it was overblown. they could never do it, but if you had the plan there, at what point does it kick in that you go, we were told this. let's get the plan and stop it, and they never went there. the fact of the matter is when you look at the timeline that "the new york times" laid out, people like me were calling jonathan greenblatt at the adl before they were even reacting in israel. i mean, the news in this country was already showing what they were not reacting to. so where is the disconnect of

the netanyahu government's reaction here where you can have the world media on this within a couple of hours and 12 hours later you're just starting to move when you already had intelligence that was telling you this was possible? there's something that is unexplainable about this. >> there's a problem. >> and we really need to stay on that, and no one has stood up more than people around this table, around what happened on october 7th was inexcusable, and some maybe in gaza, but also inexcusable is them not explaining the hours' delay and netanyahu's behaviors which is why some of the hostages are saying to him, what are you doing, and why are you risking us? the hostages themselves have said that to netanyahu. >> mika? >> hostages that are being raped and tortured and held in horrendous conditions. there is no reasonable explanation for this, and that's another part of this very

complex problem, and we have to give that as much time and not give up on the questions. coming up, a few of the nation's top universities are in damage control following a house hearing on anti-semitism. we'll have the latest fallout from the presidents of those schools sidestepping questions from lawmakers. "morning joe" will be right back. -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients

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. i have not heard calls for the genocide of . i have not heard calls for the genocide o jews on campus. >> you've heard chant. >> i've heard chants which can be anti-semitic given the context when calling for the elimination of jewish people. >> so that would not be according to the conduct or rule. >> that would be investigated as harassment pervasive and severe. >> if it is directed and

pervasive and severe, it is harassment. >> so the answer is yes? >> it is a context-dependent decision, congresswoman. >> that's your testimony today calling for the genocide of jews is depending upon the context in that is not bullying or harassment? this is the easiest question to answer yes, ms. mcgill. >> anti-semitic rhetoric when it crosses into conduct, it amounts to bullying, harassment, intimidation. that is actionable conduct and we take action. >> so the answer is yes that calling for the genocide of jews violates harvard code of conduct, correct? >> again, it depends on the context. >> it does not depend on the context. the answer is yes, and this is why you should resign. these are unacceptable answers across the board. >> the presidents of harvard and the university of pennsylvania are responding to the widespread backlash and calls to resign

following their answers during a congressional hearing on rising anti-semitism on their campuses. the president of harvard university, claudine gay issuing a statement saying people misunderstood her remarks. r statement reads, quote, there are some who have confused a rig to free expression with th idea that harvard will condone calls for violence against jewish students. let me be clear. calls for violence or genocide against the jewish community, or any religious or ethnic group are vile. they have no place at harvard, and those who threaten our jewish students will be held to account. and the president of the university of pennsylvania, liz magill posted on social media promising to review the school's code of conduct. >> there was a moment during yesterday's congressional hearing on anti-semitism when i was asked if a call for the

genocide of jewish people on our campus would violate our policies. in that moment, i was focused on our university's longstanding policies, aligned with the u.s. constitution which say that speech alone is not punishable. i was not focused on what i should have been, the irrefutable fact that a call for genocide of jewish people is a call for some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate. it's evil, plain and simple. i want to be clear. a call for genocide of jewish people is threatening, deeply so. it is intentionally meant to terrify a people who have been subjected to hatred for centuries, and were the victims of mass genocide in the holocaust. in my view, it would be

harassment or intimidation. for decades under multiple penn presidents and consistent with most universities, penn's policies have been guided by the constitution and the law. in today's world, when we are seeing signs of hate proliferating across our campus and our world in a way not seen in years, these policies need to be clarified and evaluated. penn must initiate a serious and careful look at our policies, and provost jackson and i will immediately convene a process to do so. as president, i'm committed to a safe, secure, and supportive environment so all members of our community can thrive.you. >> so that's penn's president liz mcgill. you know, i don't think any of us understand what they were saying in front of congress the day before. i will say, when you have somebody that comes on and says i should have been better

prepared to answer this question, said it's evil, something you don't usually hear from university presidents, talking about revising the code of conduct, which mika said yesterday, well, if this doesn't violate your code of conduct, you need to revise it. she says they're willing to do that. she talks about how it's threatening, deeply so. and at the end she says policies need to be revised and we need to get this right. that's the response you want to hear from somebody who's running a university that really didn't get it right the day before and caused, obviously, great concern among jewish students and their families and also people like us, who are disturbed by this. then in contrast to that, you have the president of harvard who said, oh, people were too stupid to understand what i was

trying to say. no, we understood exactly what you're trying to say. what you're trying to say is you're fine with people talking about the genocide of jews. you're totally fine with that. that doesn't violate your code of conduct. people talk about killing jews. they have to actually do something, as if the act of calling for the genocide of jews is not an act in and of itself that is evil, as the president of penn said, and leads to violence. i don't get it. one of our next guests as spent decades tackling these very issues. we're going to speak with the head of the anti-defamation league in a moment. ti-defamatio league in a moment

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80 and there's going to be no effects from that, we all know that's not true. we have an opportunity to do a next generation of leaders. we also need a president that can serve two terms. i don't think donald trump will be able to get elected. the democrats want him to be the nominee, we see that. they are going to turn the screws the minute -- i think we need to have somebody younger. when you get up to 80, i don't think that's the job for you. >> that's ron desantis making a rare jab at trump. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back

it is just after 6:00 in the morning in san diego, 9:00 in the morning here in new york.

how are those two cities connected this morning? by one man. his name is ron soto. the superstar outfielder headed from the padres to the new york yankees. finally the yankees catch a break, joe. the yankees acquired the three-time all star from the padres along with two-time gold winning outfielder grisham. the 25-year-old soto is set to be a free agent after this season. here's the "new york post," "he's the one." it's sort a one-year rental. >> it's good the yankees finally

get a break. this is a team that is much like the first l.a. gaaxy team david beckham played on. their coaches would be walking down the street in the bronx and see some kids playing stick ball and go, hey, have you ever played with a real bat? they're the little engine that could. they're like macgyver putting it all together with thumb tacks. >> they spent some money. they got a great player. >> that was a long windup for that joke, but go ahead, mike. >> the saturday part for the yankees is gerrit cole cannot start 152 games. >> i agree. >> what are we going to do?

what are the red sox going to do? >> i think they're going to send a pretty good right-handed bat, and they're going to get at least one starting pitcher, and it's a start. >> yamamoto? >> the fear about yamamoto is steve cohen, the mets owner, billionaire, loves to spend money on baseball. good for him. >> you'd think he'd learn his lesson. the mets really once and for all taught us all last year you have to build baseball teams from the ground up. the yankees have been spending millions and millions through the years. they got one world series this century to show for it. you win by building from the bottom up. you'd think steve cohen of the mets would have figured that out by now. >> yamamoto is so attractive to so many teams.

he has four great pitches. he's 25 years of age. he'll be signed for upwards of $100 million. steve cohen's offer might blow others out of the water once those bids come in. >> what do we think about ohtani? here's a guy who had some season-ending injuries last year, which may drive him down to like a $650 million deal. the dodgers actually talked about talking to him, which is supposed to put them out of the running, same thing with the blue jays. if the dodgers offer him the most money, he's a dodger. >> yeah. he probably shaved a little off the deal with the injuries, but he's still young enough and

enough of a talent that he's going to get a boatload of money. conventional wisdom is he wants to stay out west. >> we don't know much about him. he's a very reclusive character in terms of being approached by writers and things like that. toronto is a very low diverse c. let's get down to business. joining us now, we have a jim vande hei with us.

>> i'm a former little league third baseman. >> did you play the hot corner? >> i did. >> how was your glove? >> not great. >> how about with a bat? >> i hit a lot of triples. >> that's interesting. >> there were some errors involved. [ laughter ] >> you were there? >> let's start with the debate last night. republicans held their fourth presidential debate last night with the frontrunner, former president trump, absent. >> reporter: overnight the fourth republican presidential debate devolving into a four-way brawl, with nikki haley and the absent donald trump taking most of the punches, chris christie calling out his fellow candidates for ignoring their party's dominant frontrunner. >> he's the one who's way ahead

in the polls. yet, i've got these three guys who are all seeming to compete with voldemort, he who will not be named. they don't want to talk about it. this is an angry, bitter man, who now wants to be back as president because he wants to exact retribution on anyone who has disagreed with him. do i think he was kidding when he said he was a dictator? all you have to do was look at the history. >> reporter: trump refusing to take part in a single debate, it's been nikki haley who's sign a rise in momentum and money. >> in terms of these donors supporting me, they're just jealous. >> reporter: haley fending off increasingly personal attacks. >> nikki will cave to donors when it counts.

>> i love all the attention, fellas. thank you for that. >> reporter: haley brushing off ramaswamy when he called her corrupt. >> would you like to respond? >> no. it's not worth my time to respond to him. >> reporter: with the frontrunner absent, the night often marked by personal attacks. >> your version of foreign policy experience was closing a bridge from new jersey to new york. do everybody a favor, just walk yourself off that stage, enjoy a nice meal. >> reporter: christie also mocking desantis for refusing to directly answer a question about trump's fitness for office. [indiscernible] >> guys! no talking over each other! >> hmm. >> should we go back to baseball? >> yeah. [ laughter ] >> wow.

>> when i first got into politics, i had a guy tell me every campaign is about contrast, that's what you want. the guy you're running against is old, you're young. he's this, you're that. she's this, you're that. it's all about contrasts, especially if you're running against an incumbent. with all of these guys yelling on the stage last night, with ron desantis and gavin newsom and sean hannity all talking over each other for two hours, which by the way, donald trump's town hall meeting or whatever you call it got absolutely crushed.

nikki haley is a contrast to all of that. here's somebody that when she has somebody screaming and yelling and attacking her in the most personal terms, she's just like i'm not going to respond, it's not worth it. i just wonder if that's part of what's cutting through for nikki haley now. >> i think she's trying to have a different affect and be more of a grownup. none of the four of them have the kind of courage that it's going to take if you are a republican at this moment when the republican party has become increasingly fascistic, none of them have the courage to break from that in a different way. chris christie is trying to stay trump is unfit.

but is anyone proposing a different road? part of the reason they feel they can't is, there is an authoritarian constituency out there in their base that is big at this point. mike and i were just talking about this offline. at the end of the day, i think we have been living in an age of anxiety and fear and people not trusting institutions that goes much deeper than the election cycle, and a significant number of americans, whether because of covid, 2008, forever wars, rising inequality, have simply lost faith in anybody making it better. >> it goes back to vietnam. >> it does. >> i always tell people to watch ken burns documentary on vietnam if they want to understand what's going on right now. mike, i wonder if we are so afraid of the big, bad wolf that we don't actually see a weakness

there. i know we show polls where trump's up by 40, 50 points in the national polls. we've talked about how he's got an old routine. this is like elvis doing the same routine in 1977 that he was doing in 1968. he's been doing the same exact thing since 2015. i just checked. it was actually the desantis/newsom debate that absolutely crushed donald trump's town hall meeting. you look at new hampshire polls, you look at iowa polls. you know, there are people who are further behind than nikki haley who came back and beat the frontrunner in those two states. maybe trump can be beaten. >> i think donald trump can be

beaten. now, whether anybody in the field right now can beat him, i don't know. i think we spend too much time talking about donald trump, who's the figurehead for authoritarian stuff in his party and in this country, and we don't pay enough attention to what's below him, the millions of people in this country who feel historically -- we were talking about you can create a composite family, a grandfather born in 1928, fights in world war ii, gets wounded, comes home, loses benefits because the g.i. bill country take care of him. he has a child killed in vietnam, who has a child who loses everything in 2008. it's a generational thing. a group of people in this country who feel ignored, abused and throttled by a system that doesn't work for them. to my mind, we haven't paid

enough attention to that group of people because we are so obsessively focused on the true and accurate danger that donald trump represents. >> yeah. i don't even think it's just white america. if you look at what's happening, you see some of the support donald trump is having with african-americans and hispanics. i think a lot of what you're talking about is true. the part i disagree with is i don't see a path where he's beatable. i think we've tested every possible proposition where he might do something that might make him more vulnerable, and his poll numbers are exactly what they were. short of death, i think he'll be the republican nominee. i think what you were talking about about understanding the people that make this possible and understanding governance, mike and i wrote about it this morning where we're really obsessed now with it's not going

to be a donald trump if he wins who haphazardly comes into the part and is shackled. if he comes in, he's going to come in with an army of people who are ready to carry out everything he's saying on the campaign trail. it's important to write an opinion piece and hyperventilate about what could happen. listen to what he's saying will happen. his cabinet has to be loyal to him first. then they have to be willing to bend tradition and conventions around how you use the military and the government to go after your political critics, to maybe use the military in circumstances it hasn't been used before, including potentially going after protesters here in america and doing things that he's very blatant about. he's going to have the

mechanisms and the muscle and the machinery to do these things. it's really important, if you love donald trump or hate donald trump, he's being very clear that he's going to run the government in a way none of his predecessors have. i think it does resonate for people probably for a lot of then reasons mike was talking about. if you feel like you're getting screwed by the economy, then when someone comes in and talks tough aut taking it to the man and corporations and shutting down the borders, it clearly resonates with a certain group of people. i think it's virtually certain donald trump is your nominee. there's a 50/50 chance he could win the presidency. listen to what he says. look at the people he's going to

surround himself with. >> there's no reading between the lines anymore. in 2015, the muslim ban was explicit. sometimes you have, oh, this could be dangerous, right? now he says he'll be a dictator the first day. he might use the military for law enforcement. he wants to terminate the constitution. we could go on for the whole show listing the things he's said out loud. there are familiar names in your reporting this morning about how he would fill his cabinet. who are some of the people who might populate the west wing and beyond? >> we found yesterday that melania, his wife, is pushing for tucker carlson to be the vice presidential pick, which might strike some people as ludacris. she's pushing hard and making it clear she might be out there more campaigning for the ticket

if he is on it. it's below there that you should really pay attention, like stephen miller, who was the architect of everything you saw on immigration in the first term and wanted to push laws and customs much further, he could end up at your attorney general or head of homeland defense. he has written and spoken very clearly about what he wants to do, whether it's detainment camps or mass deportation of people who are here illegally. there's a guy kash patel. google him, look at what he's had to say about using government to go after political opponents, including jailing critics in the media of the president. he could be your head of the cia or the nsc. you might like that. if you don't, you're going to be horrified by some of the picks. what's in common with all of

these people is, they share at least a willingness to do all the things donald trump would say. you guys know. you're close to people in the first administration for trump, your gary cohens, dena powells. you had a lot of people around him who said, hell no, you're not going to do that. they were basically shackling him. none of those shackles will exist. he's going to come in with a group of enablers and executers. he's going to be able to do things at a velocity rate that he didn't before. there's multimillion dollar efforts outside his own orbit at the heritage foundation and other places. we posted the questionnaires they're giving to would-be employees in the trump administration. it's not about substance. it's basically an idealogical l

serve loyalty to donald trump and implement his view of what the world should look like? if you can pass that test, you might be one of the 50,000 people that get to come into government in positions that sit throughout government that execute on policy, that allow things to happen at the border. just take a look at it and make a compare and contrast. but you're talking about a much different america. >> you can read in axios this morning how trump would build his loyalty-first cabinet. thank you very much for being with us. the first time you were on the show here we were talking about the muslim ban. i remember saying in 2015 this

must be what germany looked like and felt like in 1933. we're there again, except it is far more chilling, because donald trump is being really specific about what he's going to do, that he wants to be an authoritarian president and the people that will be serving for him are saying even more frightening things, saying yes from day one. he says he's going to be a dictator on day one, and they say from day one, we are going after all of our critics, jailing them and basically doing whatever they can do. >> you know, the first trump term, i always felt like never has so much malice been filtered through so much incompetence and some of those restraints of people of some conscience that

were in those positions. it's clear that that's going to be different. i think we are at risk of ignoring the fact that it's not just a poll number that is making that likely. at the end of the day, this is the only guy in america, i would argue, who has a movement, okay? you don't defeat a movement through shame and finger wagging. you have to build a bigger, better movement. none of these other republicans are building a movement. >> what does that movement look like on the democratic side? >> there is no movement. >> i know. what would it look like? >> all these questions of biden's age, it's all sideshows. at the end of the day, it's a movement of people who meet at the local level, who are hanging out at barbecues, who are part of a thing, who are not just

being asked for money through the dnc donor list. think of the civil rights movement. these are people meeting, doing things. the people i know in the democratic party establishment and the left more broadly aren't even attempting to build a movement. they're trying to do a policy, do this, figure out a message. there's just like a missing project here, right? you need people to feel an allegiance to the people who are running. you need people to be helping each other in their own communities. you need a pro-democracy movement in this country that is organized. the truth is donald trump is an organizer, has an organizer's spirit, that you actually bring in people at all levels of political awareness. you have a kind of funnel that takes them from nothing to total

belief. he has media, bannon's war room. they have a all infrastructure of conversion. it's like a religious conversion engine. that's kind of like what real organizing is, except you should do it for good instead of brainwashing and hatred. this infrastructure doesn't even exist on the left. >> why? >> there's a couple errors. one, it has become an extremely online movement. you say twitter is not real life. people are deluded into thinking if they are online and saying stuff, they're participating in politics. they're not. if you look at the democratic party, it is a fundraising organization. the people who run it are people who are good at fundraising. i know so many incredible organizers on the left who built cross-racial organizations across this country. none of them are even being called for meetings with the people running the 2024 effort.

so at the end of the day, you can blame trump and say he should go to jail and whatever. but fair and square, he is building a movement that has organized people and he's done this since 2015. i hate to say this about my people, but my people are not building a pro-democracy movement, not even endeavoring to build one of equal force, equal and opposite force, a movement that would be truly enthralling to people, that would make people feel part of something, that when you disagree with the president, you still want to be in that movement because you feel good about being part of this community of people. there's no such movement right now. there is no pro-democracy movement in this country. there is just outrage at trump. it doesn't work. you need to build a movement bigger and more compelling than his movement. it's not about white america.

this is an age of anxiety for people across races, across genders, across ages. people are afraid, people feel screwed by the system. what you need to do is not just ask people for their vote. you need to help answer the questions that they have, the questions like, am i going to be okay, am i going to be able to find work if we solve climate change. these are the kind of deep substrate questions that are roiling the electorate beneath the political surface. it is movement that needs to step into people's lives and answer those deeper questions for them, make them feel part of something. at the end of the day, we can't just offer candidates for people and ask for $5. we have to organize people into a movement that is so excited to not just defeat american

fascism, but build an incredible country in the wake of american fascism. >> and democrats can do it. barack obama did it in 2007/2008. >> it's not just about survival of the country. it's about how do i thrive on the other side of it if we do defeat donald trump. >> exactly right. . coming up, some of the hostages released from hamas captiity are accusing the israeli government of inaction on the remaining hostages. we'll show you what was said in a meeting with prime minister benjamin netanyahu. minister benjamin netanyahu

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a meeting between recently freed hostages and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu turned tense after the group demanded netanyahu do more to

free those still being held captive in gaza. more than 100 people were freed during the seven-day truce agreement, but another 137 hostages remain. according to leaked audio recordings verified by nbc news, some of those freed by hamas shared their stories with netanyahu on tuesday. one woman who was freed with her children explained her husband is still in captivity, saying, quote, my husband was separated from us three days before we returned to israel and was taken to the tunnels, and you're talking about flooding the tunnels, she said? my daughters ask me where their father and i have to tell th t bad guys still don't want to release them. another blamed netanyahu for prioritizing the defeat of hamas over the release of captives, saying, quote, it's illogical that hamas comes before us. netanyahu said hamas was the

reason the truce ended, saying if he could bring everyone home, he would, but that's not a possibility right now. joining us are parents of a 22-year-old taken hostage by hamas. also with us for the conversation is ceo of the anti-defamation league jonathan greenblatt. have you heard anything about the status, the whereabouts of your son since october 7th? >> no. unfortunately, since the attack and from videos that surfaced right after showing him being taken in relatively good condition, we haven't heard anything for 62 days.

>> we should underline you all are american. you live in new york. your son was raised on long island, was a star athlete in high school. sounds like a classic american kid. >> yes. >> tell us more about your son. >> omar was born one month after 9/11. i worked in the city on that day. i was very pregnant. i clearly remember walking on the queens bridge because there was no transportation to get out of here. it's just insane to me to think this is what we're going through now again. he was born here. he grew up on long island, part of the community, loved sports, all kinds of sports, participated in sports, fantasy leagues, all of this, very involved in his youth group.

he got accepted into binghamton. he's also into a dual citizen. we have a big family in israel. he wanted to take a year before he went to college and get to know the family, learn about the people. so he went on an educational program. he really got close to different communities. they volunteered, they studied together. he got very close to his israeli peer group. they have to serve, right? it's part of, unfortunately, the reality in israel. he felt that he had to do his share. >> so he volunteered and became a soldier. it was difficult for us being away. but he was committed to defend the jewish country and do his share.

>> the last time you talked to him is the night before the attack, right? >> yeah. we spoke to him the night before. he seemed fairly relaxed. now for some reason they were under the impression it was going to be a calm weekend, which of course did not happen, as we all know. >> jonathan, he's an all-american kid, from long island, going to go to school in binghamton, knicks fan. anybody watching out on long island, this is your son, your child. very interesting. hamas wants to promote a lot of things, wants to scare the hell out of a lot of people. the one thing hamas doesn't really want to get out there is there are still eight united states citizens held in captivity. let me say that again for people

that are on college campuses talking about the glories of hamas and talking about from the river to the sea. there are eight americans that are still being held in captivity. i've just got to say, if i'm in the administration, i'm letting our allies in qatar know we're watching. you fund these people. let me tell you something. you need to get those eight americans home safely, because this is not about israel and hamas. this is about the united states of america and qatar. get them home. because, again, hamas doesn't want it out there, eight americans. they're holding our people. >> hamas murdered americans on that day. they raped, they tortured and they mutilated americans. hamas has kidnapped and sexually

brutalized americans. there is a straight line from 9/11 to october 7th, and we shouldn't forget it. this isn't just israel's fight. this is all of our fight. omar is your son and he's my son too. i'm the father of three boys. you better believe i would move heaven on earth to get them home. yet, like you said, joe, these feckless college students and the administrators -- yesterday at columbia university there was a teach-in at the school of social work on the, quote, counteroffensive of october 7. the only thing offensive about that is what they call the worst massacre of jews since the holocaust. the administration cancelled it. the students still did it. how did these students not get

suspended? how do these college presidents go to washington and not answer a question about genocide? how have none of them been fired? these were jews murdered because they were jews. not just jews, israeli arabs were kidnapped, christias were murdered. it's all of our enemy, period, end of story. >> what would you like our leaders on both sides of pennsylvania avenue, college presidents, students, people that are in the middle of this debate, what would you like them to know about your boy? >> first of all, it's all about severe ignorance in this country. people don't know the facts. they watch a 30-second tiktok video and they think they know the history of the middle east.

get your facts right. study, dig in and figure out what's going on. like you said, i don't know how many people realize there's still 130 hostages down there, a lot of them in dire medical conditions. we're really, really afraid of people dying as we speak. the eight american hostages that we urge the administration to bring back, we urge the administration to put pressure on israel to negotiate and make a deal and bring all the 130 hostages back. it's time. it's 62 days. people are dying. there's no time. >> you both went to washington and spoke before congress. you spoke to officials of the biden administration. are you confident that the administration is doing everything it can to get your

son and the other hostages home? >> we've been assured that they are, but we're not seeing results. results are what counts. it's 62 days in. we don't have any sign of life. we met with the icrc. they're helpless. we need our son back. >> how come there was an agreement that the red cross can get in and figure out their medical conditions and give us proof of life and that didn't happen? hamas blocked them in. we've got to have the red cross in. we've got to get sign of life, and we've got to get the hostages home, period. >> we're here to talk about it. that's why we're doing this. there's a lot of misinformation. there's a lot of lack of knowledge. some things are starting to come out about october 7th. there's some world interest finally. we have to remember that our son, eight american hostages

more, 138 still held captive by hamas underground somewhere, this is all october 7th. we're still there. >> do people realize this, that the international red cross has not been allowed in? these human rights activists? look, ideplore the violence in gaza. where is the international red cross? they should be on television every day saying we want a ceasefire and the first thing we need to enable a ceasefire is for the hostages to come home. i don't understand why people don't get this basic fact, hostages come home and this can end. hostages stay under gaza and this will go on and on and on. hamas doesn't fight for the palestinians. hamas only fights for themselves. they don't want a palestinian

state. they want to simply destroy the jewish one. that's their goal. >> again, as we said from the very beginning, for them, a palestinian death is a greater win than a jewish death, because a palestinian death allows them, again, to hammer away at israel and israel's right to exist. i just couldn't agree more that so many people see a 30-second tiktok and they think they understand everything that's happened in this conflict going back to 1948. they understand nothing. you talk to them. you've seen some of the reporting. they understand nothing. they don't know that the palestinians were offered 50% of the land after the british left. they don't know that in 2000 bill clinton put together such an extraordinary deal, gave i

can't say yasar arafat everything he asked for, all of gaza, a capital in east jerusalem. arafat was going to say yes and at the last second said no. why? because he knew the second after he did it, he'd be killed by hamas. the same thing happened in 2008. this keeps happening. idiots watch a 30-second clip on tiktok and go out making chants that they have no idea that they're making and no idea that they're actually working against the freedom and the release of young americans still being held underground in gaza. >> the occupation they chant about ended almost 20 years ago.

>> 2005. >> his name is omar. he's 22 years old and he and the rest of the hostages need to come home. thank you very much for telling your story. ceo of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt, great to have you here as well. , great to have you here as well ae and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? [dog barks] oh. no it's just a bunny! calm down taco. sit duchess. stop! sesame no no. archie! walter don't, no, ahhhh. ahhhhh! you're lucky you're so cute. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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>> single, but there's a special lady in the picture. >> it's stunning >> have you ever had inappropriate physical contact with another man >> no. >> such a damn good liar >> to you like it this way

>> all this pretending >> you'ring everye everything t >> if i was everything, you wouldn't be going where you're >> you should be careful, everybody lies about something. >> we must be aware of these communist queers. >> these people are dangerous to this country. >> i look out at that city and think about what it denies us. >> not who we sleep with, it's whoe we love. >> have you ever been in love with another male?no >> i have loved you my whole life. my great consuming love. >> mr. fuller, answer the question. >> that is a look at the new showtime limited series, fellow travelers. the eight episode historical tra ma tracing the romantic relationship of a washington d.c. bureaucrat, and tim laflin who works for senator joe

mccarthy duringjo the lavender scare of the 1950s when gay men and women working for the federal government were seen as a national securitygo risk. joining us matt bomer and jonathan bailey. so great to have you here. >> lavender scare, a lot of people might notca be familiar with it. what was it exactly? >> i didn't know a lot about it. it's basically a 1953, i believe, senator mccarthy and roy cohen convinced eisenhower to put in an executive order that banned all gay people from government, so it turned into a witch hunt, an estimated 10,000 people lost their jobs, multiple people took their lives. so it was a dark chapter in our history. >> and jonathan, how does your character play into all this and off of his? >> well, it's him, he's i think through the eyes of tim you enter the world, and he meets hawk and he has a sort of

chemical awakening meeting this incredible man that he's so balled over by. and so start this is sweeping love story of 30 years, and with that it's sort of underpinned with an amazing forensic sort of study of queer liberation and how the world around these two characters informs their choices and their brutal sort of existence. >> you know, it's so interesting, when you -- i remember reading sandra day o'connor's obit, right, and here's a woman, obviouslied smartest woman in her class, the smartest woman in her time. she and her husband move and they offer her a secretary's job, and she's like, no thanks, i'll raise my kids. you sit there going what world is that. i remember thinking the same thing at the end of the

imitation game. extraordinary movie. wait a second, buck basically tortured, jailed, like there was -- we ever had that world, and here we see it unfold. it's going to be so shocking to so many people. i bring up sandra day o'connor because there's so many women that have led the way to where women are today and younger women may not understand exactly what so many went through. it's the same thing here where people had no idea, like you said, about the lavender scare. just what it meant to be a gay man in the 1950s, and how your life, your liberty, everything could be at risk. >> yeah, and also i think it's such a recent history, and it's so shocking to so many people. but of course there are so many people in the world who live under that sort of oppression, and that's why it'sor so releva today, and i think there's themes in it, which are universal, i think. but gay people have always been

fighting andnk this is a brillit like beautiful of showing that, i think. >> that's still the reality in large parts of the world. >> sadly, yes. yeah. >> you know, matt and jonathan, it's interesting in this tiktok age that we live in to realize that well before tiktok, somehow americans in america as a whole contracted amnesia about so much that is history. in terms of history, 1953 is a snap of a finger, and yet general eisenhower, who was in charge ofei d-day and world wari was a coward at first in confronting the mccarthy's of that era. it's just fascinating to bring will this back to light now today when people will see it and think, is this fiction? did this really happen? but it all did. >> i think it's really important to look back at the times when our fears got the better of us

so that we don't repeat those mistakes going forward. >> and this goes -- it's the '50s. it goes, though, doesn't it go through the '70s? >>ug yes, it's four decades. >> yeah, it ends in san francisco in the '80s, so it's -- iin mean, it's like the way we were. it's a decade love story. it's the gay we were. >> fantastic. >> are you singing? are you doing the streisand thing? >> no. >> when it comes -- >> whispering in my ear. >> well, of course the line, though, that's drawn through there is roy cohn in the 1950s, of course a guy that's going out prosecuting, persecuting gay men, the guy who in the 1980s dies of aids. >> but denies it famously. >> denies it. and none other than donald trump went from being a friend and

allyie of his to abandoning him >> his main colyte for many an years. >> this is great, very exciting. thank you, guys, so much for being with us. >> thanks for having us. >> "fellow travelers" now available to stream on paramount plus and showtime. matt bomer and jonathan. >> that's not the first time you said the gay we were, is it? >> second time. >> i should have said yes. >> thank you, guys, congrats. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe." ♪ to soften stools, we're all agreed ♪ ♪ #2 should be easy to do ♪ trust colace to soften stools with no stimulants for comfortable relief. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

i read that in trump's upcoming election interference trial federal prosecutors are planning to use his own words against him. trump wasn't too happy to hear they've been using his exact words. he just issued a statement about it, all of my quotes should be completely anonymous. [ laughter ] or as he calls it. >> amonomous.

[ laughter ] he said it's un-american and shouldn't happen in the united states or as he calls it -- >> the united shates. >> this wouldn't be allowed in oh countries like namibia or thailand. >> or as he calls it, nambia. >> or. >> thighland. >> in conclusion, merry christmas, everybody or as he calls it. >> merry kismas everybody. >> thighland. >> thighland. those ears get in the way, i think. >> they do. >> don't that have a face to keep those teeth in? what do they call it? >> the dentures? >> that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. >> volkswagen, can lift