as it relates to that. that is truly important. look, it's a destructive time. it's not an easy time to be a leader, either of a state or nationally. as a country. as a leader around the world. so i think they've had to navigate different forces. look, we've got a long campaign. i think one of the things, also, that's important to understand about the three states that we have highlighted tonight, and something i bet you hear joe biden talk about on the stump when he is in these three states. these state legislatures also are helping that governor drive an agenda. that's why gretchen whitmer has been so good and joshua pirro and tim walt have been so good. then just campaign on it, they're driving that agenda. i think it's going to help top to bottom. >> that's a really good point. robert gibbs and alencia johnson, thank you both. that's all for this week. happy second night of hanukkah.

this is alex wagner. >> happy second night of hanukkah you, you are celebrating a mine at home who are celebrating. thanks for joining me this hour. when you think of russian president vladimir putin, you probably think of him riding horseback shirtless or presiding over a large military parade. putin's public appearances are typically loud, highly choreographed displays of masculinity and strength. which is part of what made his announcement today so notable. today putin announced that he will be running for president again. there is no pomp and circumstance, just this video of a clearly staged impromptu moment where soldiers asked putin to run again and he agreed. that quietly puts putin in under contract to lead russia until past 2030. putin is effectively removed

russia since 2000, and there's no doubt he will win the upcoming election if you remember the last russian election in 2018, putin had his main predator opposition leader alexei navalny buyer from running. and he won that election with a truly unbelievable 76% of the vote. putin has since put navalny in prison, where he remains to this day. earlier this year president xi jinping of china was similarly reelected to a third five year term. he won that election by 2900 and 52 to 0 vote. in the chinese national congress. it's abundantly clear that these men are dictators. their elections are anything but free and fair. last month a world watched his secretary of state antony blinken winced while president biden called president xi a dictator. that declaration will not make

secretary blinken's job of negotiating with china any easier, but president biden told the truth anyway. meanwhile, we all know what former president trump thinks of dictators. >> the man who looks like a piece of granite. [laughter] he's a strong like granted. he strong. president xi jinping of china. he runs 1.4 billion people with an iron hand. president xi, smart, top of his game, president putin, smart, very smart people. >> in the last few days there has been just an onslaught of analysis and reporting previewing how donald trump and a potential second term could become a dictator himself. this is something you might think donald trump would want to disavow, what this is how he decided to answer the question posed to him by foxes sean hannity this week. >> under no circumstances, you are promising america tonight,

you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except for day one. [applause] >> he says you're not gonna be a dictator are you? no, no, no other than day one. >> he's already saying he's gonna be dictator on day one. the stakes for the 2024 election could not be collier, and yet this week we saw a republican primary debate where rather than focusing on the elephant not in the room, donald trump, republican candidates chose to fight amongst themselves. republican leaders and party officials appear mostly content to stay silent. it seems increasingly likely that donald trump will be the gop's 2024 nominee. in that position, our electoral system itself gives trump a major advantage. new analysis from the washington post today shows that more than ever electoral college is set to destroy this next election. in 2016 hillary clinton won the

popular vote but still lost the election. she would've won if just 80,000 people had voted differently in michigan and pennsylvania and wisconsin. in 2020 about 45,000 votes, in georgia, arizona, and wisconsin, should change the outcome of the entire race, even though joe biden won the popular vote by more than 7 million votes. this new analysis shows that compared to those races, the 2024 race will be even more lopsided. red states are getting red or, blue states are getting blue where, and swing states are getting decidedly less purple. by the 2024 election, we may be at a point where only 18% of americans live in a true battleground state. the majority of the voters in those states are already decided. democratic strategist joe to be told the washington post that the 2024 election is gonna come

down to about 400,000 people in three or four states. 400,000 people in a country of over 330 million. given how radically different these two potential presidential candidates are, what does it take to win among this outrageously small group of voters, who still, even now, genuinely do not know who they are going to vote for? joining me now, jennifer palmieri, co-host of how to win 2024, the podcast, and for a white house communications director for president obama, jennifer palmieri, and michael steele, one of the incoming hope hosts of the weekend here on msnbc and of course former rnc chair. jen, michael steele, thank you so much for being here. jennifer palmieri, please explain to those of us who truly don't understand how anyone is undecided at this point. >> a lot of people have not thought about donald trump munch since he became the former president's united

states. we all live and breathe we feel passionate about it but there was a good democracy court today which was run by democratic strategists stand greenberg, james -- . they did a poll that show that even among voters who supported joe biden in 2020, having a retrospective's, giving trump a higher approval rating retrospectively that they give joe biden right now. there is a lot of forgetting. amnesia, and also there's a lot of focus groups and polling were people doubted on trump's actually gonna be the nominee. we're just not focused on. and they do remember that for a one case redoing better pre-covid, and they remember that the war, the world seems to be a little calmer prefer covid in the trump years, but they don't, they just don't

believe them trump is going to be the nominee and they are forgetting what a threat -- >> when that whole thing was. like >> what that whole thing was like and they are not yet, you know, really atlantic's series of articles about how don trump's second term would end democracy. so they're not reading the atlantic, the washington post, all the publications, the big mainstream flagship publications have pieces about the looming dictatorship of donald trump. it is not clearly resonating with republicans, and it may not be resonating with independent voters. i wonder what you saying, if there is some magical way in which those in the media are those concerned about the future of our democracy can better communicate with people who are not keying into the potential autocracy on the horizon. >> it's going to be a challenge, to be honest. very much to jennifer's point, voters are very particular about when they tune in.

they've got other stuff going on. she's right, this close to it, we are vexed by it unconcerned in where using words that actually in some sense sound of foreign to a lot of voters out there. when you tell them that this race is gonna boil down to 400,000 people in three or four states are like what are you talking about? i haven't voted yet. what are you talking about? so there is that part of it so what you do is you pull the lands back. that's why i've always been concerned about national polls a year out from a presidential election. dictating the terms of engagement when voters aren't tuned in. they're not tuned in. so you've got to pull the lens back and look at that data to get some sense of, what are some of the threads that can be woven by the biden administration and his political team that will connect dots for voters around the bigger question of

democracy, and tied at specifically to those polls that are showing that people are genuinely concerned about their economies, about the culture. not that they are anti-gay or anti-lesbian and anti-trans or anti this that or other group or they are concerned about crt, what little they know about it, now because they're anti-black. but because they haven't focused on them, so when the hearing this stuff it's like, what are you talking about, and then they're having other people form the opinion for them. so it's important that those, the rest of us, all those media sources you mentioned, programs like yours and others, talk about it in terms that helped people bring them into the conversation. because they're not there yet. >> the economy that michael just mentioned and you also mentioned the 401 k, chris

hayes has been amazing on this, talking, exhausting himself about the biden economy and how good it is. it is as if people forget that donald trump helped dive the country into a global pandemic pandemic. he was president in 2020. i think there is a feeling, democrats are feeling hopeless, a little bit, about looms in the foreground. there is a sense that issues like abortion, if the economy isn't resonating, the performance of democrats on social issues, like important issues like abortion, could help the biden candidacy and democrats down-ticket. >> you have to do all of the things. so we have a year out. we have the most fragmented media environment any president candidate has faced in a century, certainly. so take advantage of that because you could tell a lot of different stories to different audiences by using digital

tools. so i think you have to, somebody tied to ask to get advice on what do you think everyone should do? suggested that the biden campaign go back and re-tell the story of march 2020, and also, what biden walked into, to just remind people what a mess he walked into with covid, plus the january 6th riot so there is some context for how the economy is now, and you have to tell that part of the story about how bad it was. >> it's like biden when he said, osama bin laden's dead and general motors is alive. there was just a really, this is what happened, this is what you got, here we are. >> so you may have to tell that story. i think you also have to prove biden's plan is working, even if people don't feel the prices are as low now is they were when trump was president, although i think by the time we

get to election, that's two years, a year. >> like a year from. now i think people maybe feeling better about, economy at the crisis at that point, but i but he has a plan and it's working. and in the states i don't think we're all concerned about democracy but you have to make that tangible and real for people. what does it? meaning it means it's gonna take away your obamacare. women can't make decisions about their health care, it means that the government's extreme maga officials are gonna be running, i gotta be in the white house, in the congress and looking to be trying to tell your kids what books they can read. i think it is, i think it just can't be democracy that stage. it has to be specific, tangible rights or your economic standing that is going to suffer. they have a year to do that. >> it has to feel visceral. >> and tangible. obamacare, two gifts, trump

saying he's going to repeal obamacare because that is a popular thing that people rely on every day now, and then i am going to be a dictator. >> on day one. >> on day one. >> michael steele, i've got to ask you this because there has been so much talk this week about nikki haley. the chances of her actually ousting donald trump as a fund front runner seem thin, slim. you just raise your hand like now, that's a zero. nikki haley is a third party candidate, do you think it's a possibility? >> now. no. no. let's get off the third party staff. it is a rabbit hole to hell for the political consequences in 2024 and 2025 and beyond. the country is not, the country is not fully read in on what this means.

it is reactionary. those efforts can't tell you which of the battleground states of those three or four states that you referenced, or for that matter, any state that they can get electoral votes and college votes from, and claim for themselves, so the reality of it is, there's no space for nikki to become a third party candidate. she will either be endorsing, if trump's nominee, when trump's nominee, endorsing him or not endorsing him on his ticket or not on his ticket. so it's that black and white at this point. they have less than 40 days to close the gap of 50 points. good luck. >> it's a lot to make up. i don't think i've heard the phrase rabbit hole to hell yet, and i thank you michael steele for debuting that phrase on this family program. jennifer palmieri, michael

steele, thank you so much for keeping me honest tonight. we have a lot for this evening. the chairman of florida's republican party is rebuffing calls to step down in the wake of a rape allegation by invoking donald trump. plus, will don't be able to stay out of federal criminal court before the november election? new movement on that front today, and that is coming up next. today, and that is coming up next next >> and salad. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together can help you make smarter decisions. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected. announcer: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod. who needs that much more tide? everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -ah. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage—

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court date in the federal 2020 election interference case is march 4th. that's less than three months away. trump is doing his level best to delay this trial until after the presidential election in november, at the earliest. one of his main strategies is claiming presidential immunity,

something judge tanya chutkan rejected in a ruling last week but the trump continues to appeal. the question now is, how long will this appeals process take? can trump weaponize it as a delay mechanism? today it looks like the d.c. circuit court, which is handling trump's appeal here, it looks like that court is not moving speedily. the court is giving trump until the day after christmas, nearly three weeks from now, to submit preliminary paperwork. there's more paperwork before the judges can actually hear the case. so it's going to be at least january before the appeal is actually heard. the appeals process doesn't stop the underlying case from moving forward. trump need an official pause, known as a state, for that to happen. and so trump is asking judge chutkan for that stay until the d.c. circuit court rules on his broader appeal. the judge is expected to rule on that is early as next week. joining me now is joyce vance,

former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama. joyce, thank you for being here. i wonder how you read the timeline that is emerging on this broader appeal effort. >> on the one hand is discouraging because of this particular case. on the other hand this is how appeals work. the courts give the parties some time to get everything docketed. the record from the proceedings below has to be compiled. given the urgency of this matter, i wonder if we might not see jack smith's team take a stab and asking the court to expedite proceedings, but i think reality dictates that the judges have looked at the calendar and they've decided that they don't want to go until after the christmas holiday. >> so can you walk me through practically how many more procedural steps are in place before we can actually get to a hearing on the appeal? >> right. so there will have to be a briefing schedule. the court will order that.

with the gag order proceedings the didn't on an expedited basis. they gave the parties very limited time to file their briefs. the moving part he will get to file their brief. the other side vials a response, and then there's a reply. there's always a period of at least several days between those. once all of the briefs are in, the court is free to set oral are documents as quickly as it wishes to. but what has to happen before the parties can write their briefs, is the formal step that appellate lawyers are used to which is compiling the record. in this case it's not extensive. you'll have to get transcripts from hearing in the court below. you'll have to get a briefing papers. that's about it. it's not like a trial where that record can take quite a long time to compile. >> okay, i'm not gonna hold you to a timeline, but for people who are hoping this is going to move quickly and not affect the ultimate trial date of march 4th, it sounds somewhat discouraging. i do wonder where there, what

you think about trump's effort to get all of the pretrial motions, the jury selection, although that machinery stopped in place, asking for a stay on this. do you think he has a case to be made here? >> this is going to be a bit of a pitched battle. the law is not entirely clear. typically litigants are entitled to a stay of any matters that are related to the appeal. and so the question will be whether or not judge chutkan can continue to take steps to move the case towards trial. trump will say she can't because if he wins on his immunity argument then all of this has to go away. the government isn't entitled to try him. i think on the other hand in this case there is a very legitimate argument to be made about the interest in a court system in seeing this move forward expeditiously so it won't be particularly prejudiced if she continues to

rule on motions and takes preliminary steps towards selecting a jury. all of the evidence in this case has been discussed in public in the case of the january six committee meetings in the house. so it's a little bit of an undecided question for the appellate courts to consider. >> joyce, how much this court business to think is gonna end up in the supreme court? the request for the state could end up there, the broad appeal effort could end up there. even the gag coroner, we would be done with that, either. how much is the roberts court gonna see of all of this, do you think? >> the interesting question is whether the court will want to take these matters out. they can, and we have seen them do this before. it comes to them and appear and they say thanks but no thanks, we're going to let the appellate court's decision stand, in essence loading the d.c. circuit decide these matters. so lots of complicated sorts of inquiries here, including whether or not all the supreme court justices will continue to sit on cases involving donald

trump. we saw the first case where justice thomas stepped aside. that involved john eastman, a trump codefendant in georgia, one of clarence thomas's former law clerks. that may have been just for that matter. but as these cases go up to the supreme court, justice thomas might step aside, leaving only eight justices to decide the case. of course with that comes the possibility of an even split. all sorts of complications. i think as the banner headline here. the question of whether things proceed quickly or not is largely going to be decided by the judge in the d.c. court of appeals who was willing to move the most slowly. in other words, if there's one judge who decides to take more time crafting or signing off on the opinion, that judge could conceivably slow the process down. >> and we don't know which judges on the circuit court of appeals are gonna be assigned to this case. that will be highly determinative. joyce vance, always good to see

you. thank you for your wisdom tonight. we have more him tonight, including an exclusive look at the front lines of the migrant crisis and how big cities are coping. but first, what about trump? the embattled chair of florida 's republican party invokes the trump defense against serious allegations of sexual battery. that is next. battery. that is next that is next >>jen y. and jen z. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment. three jens getting ahead with chase. solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours.

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we're ready to fight. we demand more for our candidates, and we definitely demand more from our elected officials. and in florida, we stand with parents, not perverts. >> that was the chairman of the florida republican party, a man named christian ziegler, last year. mr. ziegler had been one of governor desantis's strongest allies in his state wide culture war. ziegler is also an ally of donald trump. when he won the florida republican pty chair earlier this year,trump celebrated his, quote, big victory, and said ziegler wod be a great chairman. mr. ziegler's wife, brigitte, is a cofounder of moms for liberty, a group that has led the nationwide movement to ban books in classroom discussions with sexual orientation, gender identity, institutional racism or anything else they deem incompatible with family values. so those igloos were rock stars

in the conservative world in florida until last week. that's when reports surfaced that christians eagle or is under mr. gagen for alleged rape of a woman with whom he and his wife have been having periodic threesomes. according to reports on october 2nd, ziegler's made plans for a threesome with the unnamed woman in her home. but when christian ziegler arrived the woman's home alone, the woman says she was raped and sexually battered by ziegler. christian ziegler has strongly denied the allegation and no charges have been filed at this point. that is not stop nearly every top elected republican in the state of florida from calling on mr. ziegler to resign's party chair. christian ziegler, however, is refusing to step aside. the reason he refuses to step aside is because of donald trump. according to the messenger website, sources say ziegler has accused republicans who want to boot him from the office of hypocrisy because they are not denouncing trump,

even though trump was recently held liable for sexually abusing e. jean carroll in 1996. according to one republican florida republican official, ziegler said to him, oh, so you're a big trump guy? but it's okay for trump? you don't call on him to resign but you want me to step down? by way of a response to this logic, i guess, that same republican official told ziegler, trump wasn't the president united states and accused of rape at the same time. he wasn't even in office. you were. and president trump wasn't doing threesomes either. apologies to anyone who is now trying to unsee that image. this is the predicament the republicans now face because of their undying loyalty to donald trump. men accused of carrying out attacks against women have learned from the guy at the top that they can simply deny and obfuscate and bully their way

into making everyone else just go along with them. the problem, florida republicans are now discovering, isn't that christians eagle or has violated the values of his party. it is that christian ziegler is right at home in the modern-day gop. still ahead tonight, our exclusive report from inside new york city's historic roosevelt hotel. ground zero for the ongoing migrant crisis. that's next. migrant crisis that's next. that's next. >> good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen.

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tension if not outright combat between state and city officials across the country, and the biden white house over immigration. it is a battle the transcend partisan lines, to some degree. you new york city, democratic mayor eric adams has been publicly critical of the biden administration, saying d.c. has abandoned us. in the past two years tens of thousands of migrants was no place to stay have crossed the southern border and arrived in new york city. some recent by republican governors, some aimed to land a new york, and others have arrived without knowing where they are. one thing remains to for all of, them new york is the only major city in the city in the country required by the courts to provide shelter, and care to anyone who needs it. for more than a year on this show we have been tracking the impact of this ongoing wave of migration. we have interviewed migrants from south america who fled

their homes under dire circumstances, may death defying trips across multiple borders, and arrived here, historically, a city of immigrants. this fall we checked in with officials to see how a city like new york is handling the impossible, providing aid and shelter without enough of either. when it opened in 1924, the roosevelt hotel was a luxury destination. as new york city socialites flocked to the art deco building, an air dust guy lombardo me the hotel famous from his annual rendition of all lying zion. >> happy new year, everybody. a very happy new year. >> the roosevelt soon earned the nickname the grand name of madison avenue. today, a top new york health

official is calling it the new ellis island. >> welcome to new york city asylum seeker arrival center. >> dr. ted long lead new york city's response to the covid-19 pandemic. now, along so new york city immigration commissioner manny castro, long is dealing with a crisis of a different kind, finding shelter for more than 140,000 migrants who have arrived in new york city in the past year and a half. so what exactly is happening here? what is this area? >> when people come into the arrival center we immediately want to give a place to sit, offer you a meal, make sure your kids are intended to. then you come up here and this is where you register. registration is what's your name and how big is your family so we know exactly how many families are here and having the families are. so is rooms come available in new york city, we know who we can place there immediately. >> under the chandelier's in the main lobby, where new yorkers ones hobnobbed, immigrants now wait to be registered. they are exhausted.

they are worried. many have made dangerous tracks to get here. and now they need a place to stay. >> [speaking in a global language] >> [speaking in a global language] >> the number of rooms we have available across new york city at this given moment is zero. that's why have so many people in the library in the lobby. >> so now these pleas law have a place to sleep tonight? >> it's not an exaggeration, zero rooms across the city for families with children. >> outside the hotel, and hundreds more weight to be processed. there are no beds available,

but it consented degree requires new york city to offer anyone and everyone shelter. >> think about this for a moment, new yorkers. we have a policy in place right now that states, you can come from anywhere on the globe, come to new york city, and we have to pay for your food, shelter, clothing, for as long as you want. when does it reach a point where says it's not sustainable? >> how many today are getting? >> last week was a day when we got over 1000 people. we're seeing a surge, and that is, to us, it's unsustainable because our city was not set up to manage and a humanitarian crisis of this man to do for this long. >> more than 2.4 million people have crossed the southern border in the past year. a recent spike brought on in part by the end of a covid area

policy that turn back migrants at the border. thousands of them are now in new york city. joel hernandez is one of them. like millions of others, hernandez left venezuela to escape food scarcity and poverty. it took him almost four years to make it to the u.s. but when hernandez finally arrived at the southern border last year he had no idea he would end up in new york. a free bus ticket made the decision for him. [speaking in a global language] >> hernandez now works as a

delivery driver in a city he barely knows. [speaking in a global language] >> since the spring of 2022, republican governors have been sending often unsuspecting migrants in the cities, using human beings as pawns to exact political revenge and hoping to provoke an anti immigrant backlash. >> they put a policies, supper claiming that they are sanctuary cities, and they love to promote these liberal ideologies until they are about to actually live up and apply them. >> this past weekend, between 11 pm and seven a.m., we had seven unannounced buses from texas arrive overnight. >> where those buses that were sent by the governor? >> those were assistant by the governor for these cities in texas. >> clearly, texas wants to make

a point, but what are we to do, let people sleep in the street? >> you don't want them in our country. >> this has been a life issue on the presidential campaign trail, where donald trump has been stoking anti immigrant fear for political profit. >> we know that they are terrace. it is a very sad thing for our country. it's poisoning the blood of our country. >> that sort of language has been echoed across the country. >> we must ensure that we extend -- >> this year, even mayor eric adams, a democrat, has come under fire for rhetoric that critics call dangers for immigrants. >> this issue will destroy new york city. >> adams has further described migrants as financial burdens for new york taxpayers. >> if i raise your taxes because anyone on our globe that once the company or city can stay here forever, and the federal government set it's on my tab, listen, idealism

collides with real-ism all the time. the real-ism is, we are out of room -- >> i am the daughter of immigrants, this is a immigrant city. new york city wants to, in theory, welcome immigrants. the mers rhetoric surround immigrants, specifically this group of migrants, has been very abrasive in recent months. i understand the frustration and desire from the federal government to intervene in a more formal capacity, but do you worry that the messaging from city hall has not been actually that welcoming to the immigrants who will find themselves here? >> we have been saying this for over a year, that we need help. we had to say in a way that, oh, paid attention. >> to guarantee beds for every asylum seeker who comes to new york city, more than 200 new city funding emergency shelters have popped up all over the city. >> most people assume that this is done by the federal government. we're doing it.

we're hoping that this can be used as a model to replicate everywhere else in the country. in the meantime, you know, we can't be the only ones. >> the biden administration is helping. >> we already delivered over one billion dollars in congress -- to states and cities receiving immigrants. >> but new york city officials say it is not nearly enough. the city as already spent more than two billion dollars to house and care for newcomers since the spring of 2022. it is expected to spend $12 million over three fiscal years. >> they only gave us a little over $100 million to pay for this. >> in september, the biden administration east pressure on what the migrants by offering temporary protective status, to more than 470,000 venezuelans already in the u.s.. that status allows them to obtain work permits, but some the hs officials worried that this might prompt more migration from elsewhere.

in the meantime, everyone else is left in limbo. [speaking in a global language] >> every asylum seeker we communicate with, we don't want anything from new york, we just want to be able to contribute to the city. >> people who called new york city home represent more than 200 nationalities, many came through the southern border, or processed at the roosevelt hotel and are now the newest new yorkers. >> this is turkish, right? >> yeah, it looks like turkish or ukrainian. >> for now, the rest of our hotel is the only arrival center in new york city. the work is hard, but welcoming migrants is a reminder of what has always made america america.

>> coming up next, we'll talk to national immigration writer caitlyn dickerson at the atlantic about the public effort to turn the country of mass migration into a political hit box. that is next. that is next with voya, considering all your financial choices together... can help you be better prepared for unexpected events. for a brighter financial future. thanks. ahh, pretzel and mustard... another great combo. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected.

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illegal aliens are ravaging our community and overwhelming the community. the commander-in-chief not only has a, right you have a responsibility to fight back against these people. >> immigration has been one of the most animating subjects that the 2024 presidential race so far. the front runner of the republican primary, donald trump, has embraced mass deportations, giant deportation camps and maybe considering the resumption of his family's immigration policy. tonight, a federal judge weighed into mishit that does not happen again. in response from a 2018 lawsuit filed by the aclu, judge janis

-- approved the settlement that prohibited u.s. officials from supporting families for the next eight years. it also offers aid to thousands of families separated at the border from the trump administration, as many as 1000 children may still be have not been reunited. joining me now is kaitlan dickinson, a pulitzer prize-winning journalist, staff writer at the al antics. her latest piece, the specter of family separation looks at the immigration policies from the former president and what he might do if reelected in 2024. kaitlan, thank you for being here tonight. first, your assessment of what this ruling from the judge for future potential family separation policies, in a future potential trump administration? >> so, this ruling is a big deal, right? the aclu and the separated families part of this case got just about everything they asked for, short of a forever banned on family separations, which is important to point out, but they got eight years in which family separations are

not allowed. they got legal representation from families who were separated. they can apply for housing, apply for medical care, it can apply for mental health care to deal with the emotional challenges brought by family separations. those who are still stuck outside the country can come to the united states and seek asylum. but -- >> yes. >> you can not make separated families hole through these measures or any other. if i am somebody whose job's words, and i actually find it hard to articulate the depth and jagged in this at the wounds that family separation has caused. i watched people in interviews in front of me have ptsd flashbacks, their voice changes, the expression on the face, they almost become a different person. they leave the room entirely. relationships are forever changed and damaged, if these families have been brought back together at all, as he pointed

out. 2000 haven't. there's a big ask trick at the end of the settlement. >> what does it tell you that in the wake of that sort of trauma, trump is out there in the media suggesting that mask the sport patients, potentially even bringing back family separation can be placed on his immigration policy for 2025. >> trump has made a very clear political calculation, as have, i think the republican party, that talking about harsh crackdowns on immigration is a winning proposition for them. you can look to the way that the former president donald trump performed when he won the race in 2016, emphasizing these harsh immigration policies. of course, he did not win in 2020, but feels strongly enough that his base that is concerned about immigration, is going to be with him, and it will be critical for him in 2024. you hear the republican

candidates running against him for the nomination, saying a lot of the same things. so it flies in the face of very strong, remember, bipartisan bash black -- backlash to felicitations, but that is where we are politically. >> what has happened? i always want to go back to the stories of what has happened to these families, these people, because they have been so dehumanized in the national rhetoric. what has happened to these children that have been separated from their parents for potentially years on and? you understand the human stories and the way that they feel. >> i have been able to follow these stories of some separated families for years. those stories start with being physically sometimes wrenched away from parents, sent to shelters across the country with no notification to parents about where their children ended up, and no notification to the workers who are caring for those children as to who they were, where their parents were, how they could ever be brought back together.

and then children, you might remember, languished a lot of times in the shelters. some spent months into shelters. me and other reporters, we watched reunification's take place where it was almost as if children did not recognize their parents, were speechless, did not know what to say, their parents would breakdown apologizing, profusely. that is what we have heard a lot. i am sorry, i'm sorry, i am sorry, over and over again. the ears of trying to rebuild relationships, i hear again and again, has been a very full of challenges, full of ups and downs, lots of ptsd symptoms, like i mentioned, and once that mental health experts say may never go away. >> -- kaitlan, your reporting, it's so great that you won a pulitzer. it's so deserved. this is one of the essential stories of our times, and you are a great chronicler of it. thank you for doing that, for all of us to remind ourselves