ks. golo isn't like every other program out there, and i'm living proof of it. (announcer) change your life at golo.com. that's golo.com. thanks for spending time with us here on "the beat." we just showed you the penguins they're trying to ban in florida from being in school. my question at @arimelber, do you agree or disagree with banning penguins. you can connect with me directly. it is a bit of a loaded question because we thought the penguins were cute, but let us know what you think. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. tonight on "the reidout" --

>> in this case, my office will seek a speedy trial so that our evidence can be tested in court and judged by a jury of citizens. >> that was special counsel jack smith back in august, and now he's asking the u.s. supreme court for a speedy ruling on whether presidential immunity protects donald trump from prosecution. also tonight, the u.n. describes the situation in gaza as apocalyptic and on the brink of collapse. for all the death and destruction, how much has hamas been degraded by israel. plus, a major new development tonight in the case of a texas woman who sought a court order to get an abortion. and we begin with the american hard right's bear hug of the european hard right. hungary's authoritarian leader, viktor orban, has long been a right wing idol for republicans

trying to destroy democracy at home. it should come as no surprise that this week, allies of orban will hold a closed door meeting with republicans in washington, including members of congress, to push for an end to u.s. military aid to ukraine. they probably won't have to push too hard since stopping ukraine would be a gift to russian president vladimir putin, the russians' over favorite strong man. as president biden will be hosting ukraine's president, volodymyr zelenskyy, at the white house on tuesday. the republicans' embrace of putin friendly policies is the latest in a growing alliance building between america's far right wing and europe's earlier this year, orban hosted some of america's most high profile maga foot soldiers at cpac hungary, including failed arizona senate candidate kari lake, and white nationalist sympathizer, arizona congressman paul gosar. and orban's remarks make it

clear why his american hard right admirers see hungary's fascist dictatorship as a model for the u.s. he denounced lgbtq rights and what he called woke culture. and told his audience of international right wingers, quote, no migration, no gender, no war. adding, hungary is actually an incubator, where experiments are done on the future of conservative policies. hungary is the place where we didn't gist talk about defeating the progressives and liberals can causing a conservative christian political turn, but we did it. it's no wonder then that america's own fascist right agrees and has been on a years long campaign to make it happen. in 2021, one of orban's biggest cheerleaders, tucker carlson, took his show to budapest for a week. >> the small country with a lot of lessons for the rest of us. one last thing, because the example of hungary is so powerful, not just in europe, but to the world, to the entire

world, not simply the west, what you can do with a relatively small economy and not many people if you're just serious about keeping your nation from being destroyed. >> another orban devotee on this side of the atlantic is gavin wax, president of the new york young republica club. in 2022, he told cpac hungary, america firstonservatives demand nothing short of an american orbannism. later that year at the organization's annual gala, he declared total war on the group's perceived enemies in front of a who's who of white nationalists and trolls. including anti-immigration zealot peter brim alow, founder of the white supremacist website, and former trump adviser and lord of the alt-right at breitbart, steve bannon. it's important to note the new york young republican club is nothing short of a donald trump superfan society, and during that same 2022 gala, marjorie taylor greene told the crowd, quote, if steve bannon and i

organized that, meaning january 6th, we would have won. not to mention it would have been armed. "the new york times" also noted another key guest, hungry's ambassador to the u.s., who said he attended at orban's behest. at this year's gala, the guest of honor and america's own wanna be orban, donald trump, doubled down on this little gem. >> i said i want to be a dictator for one day. but "the new york times" said, and you know why i wanted to be a dictator, because i want a wall, right? i want a wall, and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> and one more note crowd of orban and trump fans who are working hard to destroy america's multiracial democracy from within, their followers have a shared set of goals with europe and also south america's far right. subordinating women and eliminating abortion, eliminating lgbtq rights, ending immigration, and getting their countries and ours as close as possible to being white ethno states, swhich was home, by the

way, to the 2022 nationa conservative conference or nat con, whias described by regious dispatches last year as a who's who of the thought leaders. opinion shapers, policymakers and foot soldis of the rid flank of the maga ecosystem. it adds, while most of the extremely online movements that espouse these ideas or the neoreactionary dark and light movement, they have been politically marginal and ineffective. the people gathered at nat con know how to get things done. the king maker peter thiel has delivered the opening keynote at all three conferences in the u.s. as for their international conferences, back in 2020, one of their guests of honor for their conference in rome was hungry's prime minister, viktor orban. joining me is ben collins, nbc news senior reporter, and steven

luvitsky, coauthor of tyranny of the minority, why american democracy reached the breaking point. thank you both for being here. i will start with you, steve. can you just talk a little bit more about how the european far right and the american far right sort of came together and how long that's been going on? >> it has been going on for about a decade or so. i think it's important to point out or step back and think about how new this is. it wasn't that long ago that americans and republicans thought of the united states as a model for the world. that other countries and other political parties would follow. now, we have descended or the republicans have descended to a point where they're running around chasing a small country like hungary and viewing it as a model. rather than the united states being a model for anybody, we are copying hungry or

republicans are hellbent on copying hungary. that's pathetic. and i think the most important thing for us to take into account is for the republicans for a long time was a sister party to other conservative parties in the west, the german democrats, the torys in great britain, other center right parties. now the republican party is openly embracing not center right parties. those parties are still there. we're not interested in them. we're openly embracing openly authoritarian parties like hungerary, putin in russia, and in south america. this is a dramatic, dramatic transformation. we need to keep this front and center as we head into the 2024 election. >> yeah, and we're going to talk more about south america, victor malange, he likes to wave the chainsaw around and said he's

going to take that to society in his country. ben, you know, tucker carlson was kind of the most open, there he is waving his chainsaw. tucker carlson was kind of the most hungry hungary boot liquor on fox before he got fired. he's taking the show on the road, he said x wasn't big enough so he has his own platform trying to push more of this we need to be more like hungary meme, but it isn't just him and his testicle tanning fans. it's also elon musk, who has now put alex jones back on twitter. they're embracing what is the guy's name who is accused of rape around the world, and he's sort of a fan or he's basically an avatar -- andrew tate, who is kind of the incel superleader. it's a group of them who are online as well, right? >> yeah, it's the american global far right that's been building on the internet since about 2014, 2015, post what i

would say gamer gate, online harassment campaigns that target minorities and women, specifically, to try to show off some sort of strongman prowess through bullying and intimidation. that's the entire point of this group. i think you did a good job of showing where the power structure is now. the power structure is with elon musk and with tucker carlson and alex jones and matt gaetz and vivek ramaswamy. those are the people, the real power centers of the american republican party. and that pushes out, by the way, that's a give and take relationship with people like viktor orban, who echoed those things. i think the number one thing people should know about this, whether you agree with them about rolling back american trans rights or gay rights or if you for some reason decide that your speech rights are fine to give up, democracy right now

over there under viktor orban's leadership is not doable. he said he's going to be their leader for the next ten years plus. that's what he wants to be. he made constitutional amendments to make it harder for opposition parties. he essentially squelched the free press, which tucker carlson viewed as more free press. so that's the model. the model that you keep hearing in those spaces is we're not a democracy. we're a constitutional republic. what does that mean? they're going to try once they get into power to never, ever relinquish it. >> right, and the point being, i mean, i don't mean this to be funny. it's sort of an incel movement. i was reading the stories about victor mulay and his pace. it's these young white males who are angry, and 50 or 60 years ago, they held absolute power in society, and now they feel it's too much women, blacks, gays,

brown, immigrants, and they want to rebuild that society and put everyone else on their heels and put everyone else to heel. it kind of is that, but they're more serious than that in the fact they're willing to use violence to deproiv people of their rights to vote, to exist, to speak, in order to make it happen. >> so yes, throughout history, every time that we take steps towards greater inclusion and greater democracy, there's always pushback. there's always a reaction, there's always authoritarian reaction. we have seen it in u.s. history and elsewhere. argentina like the united states has become a much more inclusive democracy in recent years. dramatic expansion of gay rights in the last decade, and abortion rights, and like the united states, we're seeing a pushback. but it's important to point out, javier mulay is a nut and he's far right, but his threat to democracy i think is far less

than trump. donald trump has been much more openly authoritarian, particularly in the run-up to the 2024 election than any of these guys, than orban, than erdogan, than bolsonaro. none of these guys openly promised to lock up their opponents and to go after the media. mulay is a clown, he ran around with a chainsaw. he never promised to lock up his opponents. he never promised to use the argentine judicial system against his opponents. he never promised to try to shut down the media. trump has been the most openly authoritarian candidate in a competitive election that i have seen since the end of world war ii. >> and unfortunately, ben, the polls a year out mean very little, but they are a little bit of data that's interesting. right now, he's beating joe biden in the polls. how much of the challenge here is that biden's base is not as

strongly behind him? he's polling maybe 8 in 10 of the people who voted for him before, where trump is pulling 9 plus in 10. and in a thee-way race, it's not a whole lot better, and biden's base are the more sort of economically stressed people of color, younger people, people who are very mad at him over gaza, et cetera. he's got problems. how much of this is a challenge that biden, i don't know, in some ways can't solve because he's part of the problem? >> that's part of it. there's two sides to this. running a cult of personality based campaign, the magic is people do not leave you. people will support you to the very end. that's exactly what donald trump is doing and joe biden is not. you know, he's not messaging around the only i can fix this kind of stuff that donald trump has been saying. only i will get rid of your en enemies, these authoritarian fascist talking points. but also, joe biden, because of

that, his base is fractured. the kids in his base, you were saying, overtly, they will not vote for him over gaza. that is a problem they need to figure out. this is not, you know, joy, you hear from a lot of people, i think, that the de facto position is to browbeat these kids and say they're not on to something, they're not seeing what they're seeing with their eyes all over the place, and that this mass death is acceptable. i don't think that's a great strategy. they should say the beauty of the democratic party or the beauty of democracy or the beauty of the old republican party is you could disagree about these one to one issues. you could talk about them. an conversations. that's what they should say instead of going for this other playbook that kind of mirrors trump, you don't actually know what you're talking about, and if you don't shut up, you'll end up with something a lot worse. >> yeah, i think that is good advice. we'll see if they take it. ben and steven, thank you both

very much. up next on "the reidout," a new filing by special counsel jack smith asks the supreme court to weigh in on trump's claim of immunity surrounding the events of january 6th, and to to it as soon as possible. "the reidout" continues after this. d isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. ♪ if you struggle with cpap... [man struggles] ...you should check out inspire. no mask. no hose. just sleep. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com

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despite trump's best efforts to delay his criminal trials until after next year's election, jack smith is not having any of it. earlier today, smith asked the u.s. supreme court to step in and immediately consider trump's claim tt he has presidential immunity for his attempted coup seeking to overturn the election. writing, this case presents a fundamental question at the heart of our democracy, whether a former president is absolutely immune from federal prosecution for crimes committed while in office. the move is essentially the special counsel's attempt to bypass trump's appeal to the d.c. circuit after tanya chutkan rejected this notion of absolute immunity.

and smith is urging the to move quickly so the trial can move forward as plan. over the weekend, another filing from smith's office lays out new details about his team's extensive probe into trump's election lies, specifically the unfounded claim that foreign governments rigged u.s. voting machines. joining me now is tim 8 hathy, and katie phang, trial attorney and host of the katie phang show on msnbc. katie, let me start with you. how quickly could in theory the supreme court move on this? >> well, consider the following, the supreme court has basically said i am allowing the expediting of this motion, and we just got this today, i mean, this motion to expedite, i'm looking at it now, was filed, motion to expedite briefing on the petition. the order was entered. donald trump has to fail a response to that petition on or before 4:00 p.m. on wednesday, december 20th. and just in today as well, that

appellate court appeal in the regular course that normally would happen if you didn't skip the appellate court and went straight to the supreme court, that order just got entered right now telling donald trump to respond to jack smith's motion to expedite by wednesday of this week. so we're probably going to get this very quickly done. how quickly? if you look at the united states v. nixon case that is cited by jack smith. it was done within a few months. it's almost -- if there was ever anything that was the utmost paramount importance is to have these questions answered. special counsel jack smith says the united states recognizes this is an extraordinary request. this is an extraordinary case. the future of democracy hangs in the balance. the supreme court understands that perhaps this needs to be addressed as soon as possible so that this issue can be resolved as quickly as possible. >> and tim, you were an

investigator on the january 6th -- for the january 6th select committee. did you from your investigation notice any normal presidential activities donald trump was doing when he was watching the insurrection unfold on tv, for instance, or calling his vice president the p word? >> no, joy. absolutely not. look, we faced a lot of the same objections from witnesses during our process. witnesses would say, look, we don't have to come in because we're protected by executive privilege, everything that we did, all communications with the president were pursuant to our official function. our response, the committee's response was always, this is outside of your official function. it has to do with campaign related activity or straight up conspiracy to obstruct the official proceeding. none of which falls within the definition of official business. it's the very same argument before the court. donald trump wants to say, look, i was acting as president.

jack smith says no, you were acting outside of the lawful permissible bounds of official action in an unlawful way. that's a question teed up for the supreme court. judge chutkan issued a very detailed, very well reasoned ruling. i think donald trump loses, the bigger quest is when, and by which court these issues are teed up. >> did you see any evidence that a foreign government interfered with the voting machines and flipped votes from biden to -- from trump to biden? >> no, absolutely not. jack smith has followed this lead as well. we talked to national security officials who looked into allegations of foreign interference with voting machines, found no such evidence. jack smith has even gone further, joy, and actually spoken to some additional members of the trump administration who themselves were able to rebut the notion of any foreign interference. jack smith wants to show that because president trump repeated allegations of voter fraud, despite the fact he was told

repeatedly, our evidence of his deception and his specific intent to disrupt the joint session. >> katie, let me go to you on this. the special counsel says they're going to call three data location experts to testify in the d.c. trial. the bottom line, they reviewed the phones that were operating inside the white house, and the phones being used by the defendant, meaning donald trump and another person called individual one, and specifically identified the periods of time when the defendant's phone was unlocked and the twitter application was open on january 6th. twitter application. what is the significance of that? >> i think consider the following, it just goes to show how much has been going on behind the scenes about which we have no idea. and that is the biggest underestimating that could possibly be done to the detriment of someone like donald trump. there has been this level of investigation that's been conducted, where they have gone so far in a granular way to find evidence that shows when an app has been opened, the apps that have been used, the timing of

such. and we were always looking to figure out, was there communications going on? what was going on when this was happening? there's different ways for people to communicate with each other, and it goes to show, to tim's point, everything has been chased down. any available defense that could be raised by donald trump, we're going to see that jack smith has anticipated those defenses and he's prepared for them. i think it kind of militates to the idea, jack smith is ready to go to trial. he's ready to go to trial in march. why delay this. he's prepared to present his case in chief, and he's showing i'm complying with all the deadlines, moving forward. let's get this ball rolling. >> the opening statements begin today in the defamation trial against rudy giuliani. i want to read a quote here. callers after she was called out by donald trump andgiuliani, callers told rubyfreeman and shaye moss thay were traitors, that they deserved to be hanged from trees and hanged

at the united states capitol, close enough to the public for people to hear their necks snap, said attorney von debose. john's lawyers are saying the millions of dollars in damage should fit the crime, what the plaintiffs are asking for is the single equivalent of the death penalty, the death of mr. giuliani. what do you make of that evidence? >> i have no sympathy for rudy giuliani. if it's the death penalty for him in regard to financial responsibility, oh, well. his liability for the defamation and the intentional infliction of emotional stress has been done. the important part of what's asked for by the plaintiffs, joy, is not the make me whole damages. it's the punitive damages, send a message damages. making sure someone like rudy

giuliani is not inspiring someone else to do it. >> thank you so much to tim and katie. thank you both. coming up, i will ask the senior adviser to israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu about his country's controversial conduct in the war against hamas in gaza. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ salonpas, makers of powerful pain relief patches for 89 years... believes in continuous improvement... like rounded corners that resist peeling, with an array of active ingredients... and sizes to relieve your pain. salonpas. it's good medicine. we're travelling all across america, talking to people about their hearts. ooh, take this exit. how's the heart? i feel like it's good. you feel like it's good? how do you know when it's time to check in on your heart? how do you know? let me show you something. it looks like a credit card,

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after more than two months of israeli attacks, health

officials say the death toll in gaza has now surpassed 18,000 people. thousands more buried under the rubble and presumed dead. the israeli defense forces estimate that 1200 people were killed in the october 7 hamas attack, with around 140 people still held captive in gaza. joining me now is the senior adviser to israeli prime minister netten yeah u. ambassador, thong for being here. it has been a long time. so thank you for your time this evening, for you. let's start with what i just began with. 18,000 dead so far in gaza. tens of thousands injured. the u.s. media has estimated that 2,000 pound bombs are being dropped, some 22,000 of them in just over six weeks. how has causing that much death and destruction, 80% of those dead estimated to be women and children, how does that achieve

the goal of eradicating hamas? >> so, joy, first of all, i want to thank you for allowing me to come on "the reidout." it is appreciated. i know you have been a critic of israeli behavior and i appreciate the opportunity to make my case. and that is very much appreciated. our goal in this operation is, of course, not to target gaza civilians. our goal is to target the hamas military machine. we have to eliminate that machine because of the threat it poses to the civilian population of israel. israeli people simply refuse to live any longer next to this terror enclave in constant fear that terrorists will cross the border in the middle of the night and murder their children. that's the bottom line. we have to end hamas' rule of gaza. >> and may i ask how -- i'll reask again, how does killing 18,000, 80% of who are women and

children, how does that achieve the goal of eliminating hamas' military infrastructure? >> joy, can i urge you please to be a little bit circumspect of those numbers. they are put out by the hamas-controlled ministry of health in gaza. and therefore, you have to presume that hamas has reasons for playing with the numbers. you know that they were very cruel, they have no qualms about killing people and innocent civilians. you can presume also they have no qualms about killing the truth. >> are you saying you do not agree with the united nations agreeing with those numbers, most human rights groups agree with those numbers. you're casting doubt on that 18,000 number? >> what i'm saying is we have to be very careful with numbers put out by hamas. they would have you believe that they're all innocent civilians. while it's clear israel has been

targeting hamas operatives, hamas terrorists, the hamas infrastructure. i have no doubt that there have been civilians caught up in the cross fire between the israeli defense forces and the hamas terrorists. unfortunately, that's a reality of war. we as a democratic country want to keep those numbers as low as possible. but our job is made really difficult by the fact that hamas has embedded itself in civilian areas, under neighborhoods, under mosques, under hospitals, even under schools and u.n. facilities. hamas has said so, they have adopted a strategy of using civilians as human shields for its terror machine. >> if you were to discover the israeli, you know, military were to discover that sinwar, the hamas militant who planned the

10/7 attacks was hiding in israeli territory, hiding in a hospital there with his militants, with his men, would israel drop 2,000-pound bombs on that hospital? >> we would probably, if it was inside israel and we had control of the ground, we would send in our special forces, as we have in the past when you have sort of terrorist situations, and we would eliminate it, and -- >> and you would not do that in gaza? >> no, we have. we have sent ground forces into gaza. we're losing soldiers in very difficult fire fights between us and the hamas terrorists. it's only a matter of time. >> let me show you a piece of video. and take a look at it. this is a group of palestinian men who were marched out of, per u.s. media, including cnn, u.n. facilities placed on the ground in their underwear and displayed in this way.

who took these pictures is is this not a violation of the geneva conventions to display these men in this way? >> so, can i say that the reason they have been asked to strip, except for their underwear, is because hamas, of course, has been one of the pioneers of the u.s. of explosive vests. and we have had too much experience with people from hamas blowing themselves up and in the process, killing israelis around them. and that we would ask people who have surrendered to strip off temporarily. that is a necessitary of difficult combat with a terrorist group, that has used this tactic repeatedly in the past. too many israelis have died from hamas terrorists who have exploded themselves with explosive vests. >> i will note that an israeli newspaper has noted that 1 in 10 perhaps have been linked in some way to hamas. 9 in 10 were doctors, one of

them is the brother of a man who worked for the united nations. i want to quickly play you a piece of video. >> may i respond to that please? >> sure. >> i just wanted to say that these were men who were apprehended, taken prisoner in an area of combat. they're men of military age. it was a combat zone where there was heavy fighting. as a result, we were right to interrogate them all. ultimately, we're looking for those responsible -- >> who took those pictures? i don't deny the right of the military to interrogate people, but the geneva conventions are quite clear in saying displaying people in a that degrades their human dignity is a violation of the geneva conventions. who took those pictures and who displayed them. >> we're taking steps to make sure that doesn't happen again. >> but who took the pictures in the first place? >> we're getting to the bottom of that. it's not clear to me.

and it's clear that it shouldn't have happened. >> let me play for you the relative of one of the people who was kidnapped on 10/7. this is the cousin of one of those people. take a listen. >> we are operating under the assumption that we are running out of time. you have just covered the renewed assault on southern gaza. this is probably where my cousin is. this is where his phone was traced to. we know that israeli air strikes are hurting the hostages. and now it's even more dense. it's impossible. >> what is your answer to this young man, particularly given that israeli officials have talked about doing things like filling the tunnels with seawater? >> so, his family is being held hostage by hamas in gaza. one can only feel for him and try to support him, because hamas can do -- they're guilty

of the most heinous violence. most atrocious behavior. >> sir, it iha is bombing the place where his family is. that is what i was asking you, because that is what he is asking. he's saying that his cousin is being held where israel is bombing. >> all i'm saying is we have to feel for this person, and all the relatives who got loved ones being held hostage by hamas in gaza. we can only feel and try to understand the pain they're going through. but as to israel's policy, as you know, a week ago with the help of president biden, we had a humanitarian pause for hostages to be released. the only reason hamas agreed to that pause is because they were under incredible military pressure. they didn't suddenly release hostages because they became humanitarian. >> we're very much out of time. during the week-long pause, more than 100 civilian hostages were released. how many have been released while israel has been bombing?

resuming bombing? >> i think it's the opposite, though. >> but none have been released. they were released during the pause. >> but the pause was agreed to because hamas was desperate for a cease-fire. and it's possible that as we keep the military pressure on hamas today, that will expedite a future release of hostages because hamas, i started to say, you didn't let me finish the sentence. hamas only released hostages. they're not humanitarians. they only as president biden said, they respond to pressure, and the military pressure on hamas that we're giving today, that can lead to the release of hostages tomorrow. there's no other way to work with these people. as president biden said, they understand pressure. >> let me ask you one final question and then i really do have to go. there have been some statements by leaders in israel including your prime minister referring to killing the women, the children, and oxen, referring the deputy mayor of jerusalem, saying that

palestinians should be buried like ants, buried alive. talking about using nuclear weapons in gaza, flattening it. saying turning it into a parking lot. saying this will be a new nack bah. those kind of statements by leaders in israel, how should the world interpret them? >> so, we will defeat hamas. we have to dismantle its military machine and remove it from gaza. that's for the elementary safety of israelis. in achieving that goal, it's not just good for israel, because we'll be safer and more secure. our people won't have to live in fear of hamas coming across, as i said before. but it's also for the people of gaza. >> you stand by these statements? the people of gaza being referred to as ants. >> it's good for the people of gaza too because hamas has been ruling the gaza strip for 16 years, and what is their record of government? just poverty, misery, bloodshed.

they have been tear trbl the people of gaza. both sides of the frontier, israelis and palestinians, will be better off without hamas. >> we are out of time. i'm not sure the people of gaza would stand by those statements about themselves. >> they're increasingly coming out against hamas. there's all this pent-up anger because they hold hamas accountable. i'm under no illusions. there's a historical animosity i understand, but they're furious at hamas for starting his war and bringing this destruction on their society. >> we will have to leave it there. please come back. former ambassador, thank you. still ahead, new developments in the case of a texas woman forced to ask a judge for the right to carry out a necessary medical procedure. including a look at why the odds were stacked against her from the start on that state's highly conservative supreme court. we'll be right back. rgets pain at the source of inflammation.

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at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. quality. movement. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and shop our big holiday sale. late tonight in a stunning but not shocking move, the texas supreme court ruled against 31-year-old kate cox, who sued to get an emergency abortion because her fetus had developed a lethal condition and her health was at risk. in the ruling, the court said difficulties in pregnancy do not pose the heightened risk to the mother that the state's exceptions for a mother whose life in is danger encompasses. going against what cox's doctor

had recommended. due to her underlying health conditions every day she remained pregnant endangered her health and her ability to have another child. it's worth notice just who made that private health decision for her. the court is made up entirely of republicans, including john divine, who centered his 2012 election on his antiabortion ideology, including boasting about getting arrested dozens of time. one about a decision he and his wife made to continue their pregnancy. his wife survived the birth but their daughter only lived for an hour. that was divinethat was he and s private decision to go forward with that pregnancy, and now kate cox is health is at risk because people like to fine or trying to make that decision for her. cox's lawyer says she has left the state to get an abortion. joining me now is melissa mary, professor of law at new york

university and an nbc legal analyst. even with roe gone, melissa, it is hard for me in a lot of women to get it in their hands that women in the year of our lord 2023 have to go to a court, and then get overruled by the united states supreme court on personal health care, even at risk of violence. but just as a legal matter, how can it be that exceptions for supposedly the life of the mother do not cover a case in which a mother could die from sepsis from having dead fetal tissue inside of her? >> well, joy, this is all down to the chaotic and confused environment that has been left in the wake of roe in many states. it is true that many of the most draconian abortion bans have provisions for exceptions and cases where a pregnancy would threaten the health of the women, or would result in an and viable fetus. but there's a lot of gray area as to whether or not doctors can actually perform abortions in their medical judgment without risking legal or

criminal liability. and so, this is one of those situations in texas. this woman's doctor believes that she needs an abortion in order to preserve her future fertility and in order to preserve her life. but the doctor did not feel that the landscape was clear enough that she could order and perform that abortion without risking legal liability for doing so. and recall, texas has not only a criminal abortion ban in place, there's also sb8, which is the bounty hunter law that -- filed suit against anyone helping a pregnant person to get an abortion. that includes the physician. so physicians are really in a difficult position here. they can perform these abortions and be subject to some crevelone ill and civil liability. anytime you are -- a lot of physicians are just like, it's just not worth it. i'm not going to do it. that is exactly the kind of landscape that texas wants. we're not only is it prohibited, but even the exceptions are difficult to get. >> when we talk to doctors down,

that they said the result is gonna be a lot of physicians are gonna leave the state. why would you want to practice in a state that essentially is the handmaid's tale? the thing that so infuriating about this is the decision on whether a woman can get this exception is really in some ways down to the decision-maker is a woman or man, in the case of the judge who said yes, she should be able to have this abortion, this female judge. and obviously, her doctor. or, this zealot man, who sits on the supreme court despite himself having protested and violated the law and gotten arrested 37 times trying to obstruct women from getting abortions. i don't understand how she doesn't as a leave gold claim against this judge, for instance. he's clearly biased by his own ideology. >> this is the tribunal that she has. this is the texas supreme court. this is an individual who is an elected individual in texas. many of the judges on the texas supreme court will be up for reelection in the upcoming election cycle. so, texas women, if this matters to you, here's an opportunity to make your voices

heard. but that kind of disparity is one that we see at all levels of government. in congress, in state legislatures, we have men, often of geriatric age, making decisions about reproductive health for women. and again, there isn't a lot of equity in terms -- representation in these legislative bodies. if there are women in the bodies, women are woefully represented and most legislative bodies. they're mostly not women of reproductive age. the people making these decisions are not the ones who have to face these difficult prices. >> and ohio, there's a case of a young black woman in her early 30s who missed carried into a toilet, and is now facing potentially two years in prison because it was a stillbirth. in the medical examiner has confirmed that this fetus was that when it came out of her. how can it be, again, year of our lord 2023, that women are now facing prison for having a stillbirth and not doing what?

taking the baby out, dragging it out of the toilet and having a burial? what is it that these men want women to do other than maybe die in childbirth? >> i'm really glad you're covering that case, because it isn't getting the kind of attention that kate boxes case has received. but this is the landscape that many, including myself, predicted in the wake of dobbs and the overturning of roe v. wade. in a world where abortion is criminally prohibited, or legally prohibited, every kind of episode like this, every miscarriage carries a threat that maybe some don't view it as a miscarriage. maybe some view it as a purposeful way of terminating a pregnancy. again, it's very hard to tell, and a lot of these cases, this is of women who miscarried relatively early in her pregnancy. -- medical examiner is, whether or not these individuals believe her testimony. again, this all kinds of things that factor into the credibility of a women making that kind of -- during these kinds of

questions. so again, lots of things going on, and this becomes a kind of place where the state has incredible oversight over the most private decisions, and some of the most private trauma that women can go through. and miscarriages incredibly traumatic for anyone, and to then face the prospect of criminal liability at the end of it can be doubly traumatic. >> and i will note for those in the audience who are keeping score, the goal among republicans, including lindsey graham and donald trump, and all of them, including your savior here, the south carolina former governor, is to take this policy national. so you couldn't leave your state. there would be no way to one, because this would be the national policy. give birth even to dead tissue or die, and those are your choices. but accordingly. alyssa mary, thank you so much for being here. we'll be right back.

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