it will release your fat and it will release you. we try to have fun around here sometimes too. take a look at what we do on tiktok. >> ain't no regular chocolate. >> it's the good stuff. >> election night in america. that can only mean one thing. the legend at the map, steve kornacki. >> you go bing bong. >> bing bong. >> here we are trucking. this is what it looks like when we do a news show from the road. >> i was the relief pitcher today. >> you are great, but i would be more happy if this was our viewer. i we're in brooklyn. if it's friday -- >> it's time to fall back. >> hey.

>> that's how you know it's real. one take with our postal worker friends. you can follow me on tiktok at ari melber. now time for joy reid. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> a lot of threats. wishing death upon me. telling me that i'll be in jail with my mother, and saying things like be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> it was lies from rudy giuliani and others that led to those threats against shaye moss and ruby freeman. today, shaye moss took the stand in the trial to determine how much giuliani will have to pay in damages. also tonight, president biden tells president zelenskyy he will never walk away from ukraine. but many republicans are sure willing to walk away and give

putin a big victory. i'll talk to senator raphael warnock about that and much more. also tonight, cassidy hutchinson joins me on the danger that donald trump poses if he gets a second presidency. plus, the fallout over congressional testimony of university presidents, and why it's a disingenuous argument this was all about anti-semitism. but we begin tonight in the trump world of alternative facts where the twice impeached four times indicted former president and his allies continue to believe if they just say something enough times then somehow poof, it becomes true. case in point, rudy giuliani, who was in the second day of his civil trial to determine the amount of damages he'll have to pay to two georgia election workers he defamed after the 2020 election. even though he's already been found liable for defamation, giuliani has continued to claim that he was telling the truth. >> whatever happened to them, which is unfortunate for the

people overreacting, but everything i said about them is true. >> do you regret what you did to ruby freeman -- >> of course i don't regret it. i told the truth. i perhaps rudy's own lawyer didn't get the memo about that alternative fact, considering it contradicted what that lawyer was saying in court, calling the election workers good people who did not deserve what happened to them. today, one of those workers shaye moss, provided dramatic testimony on how giuliani's false allegations forever changed her life. fighting back tears at several points during her testimony, moss described the relentless harassment and fear of violence directed at her and her loved ones. quote, i was afraid to my life. i literally felt like someone was going to come and attempt to hang me and there was nothing anyone would be able to do about it. donald trump also tried to create his own alternative fact today on why he declined to testify yesterday. over claiming over the weekend he had nothing more to say,

today, trump posted that he did in fact want to testify, but could not do so fully because of the gag order in the case. remember, the gag order in this case only prohibits trump from making statements about the judge's law clerk who cannot defend herself. why that was pivotal to trump testifying is as confusing to me as why anyone paid money to attend trump university. today, trump is also facing questions about one of his criminal trials, the classified documents case in florida. which we all know he will never face as it is being overseen by the trump friendly judge aileen cannon. cnn is reporting on the repeated attempts by trump and his associates to cozy up to a longtime former mar-a-lago employee who quit after the fbi searched the resort last summer and before charges against trump were filed. according to cnn, this employee was also a witness to several of the episodes special counsel jack smith included in his federal criminal indictment. quote, he had moved several

boxes for trump and was also privy to conversations referenced in the indictment between trump and his two codefendants. mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira, and walt nauta, putting the employee in a unique group of staffers who could be in a position to provide valuable information to investigators. the outreach included a direct call from trump as well as offers to pay for his legal representation, complimentary tickets to a golf tournament and reminders he could get his job back if he wanted it. joining me is lisa reuben and glenn kirschner, normer federal prosecutor. thank you for being here, both of you. here's the cnn story. it is, lisa, quite a tale. and what struck me was the sort of persistence, let's say, of deole avara in particular in going at this employee multiple times. showing up at parties and events

with them, inviting them to come back and work for trump. saying no, no, people around trump saying let us get you a lawyer. is that witness intimidation? >> you know, joy, that's a hard question to answer. it certainly is on the border of witness intimidation. the other thing i think shouldn't be neglected here is that the person is indeed a witness. and when you compare cnn's reporting today with previous reporting by "the new york times" in september about another former employee repeatedly contacted with respect to offers of attorneys, for example, or you even compare it to the indictment in this case, where someone who goes by trump employee five seems to have a lot in common with the subject of cnn's reporting. it's pretty clear that the person who is implicated in cnn's reporting is not just a casual witness but somebody who might be at the very center of the case that the special counsel's office would hope to put on if and when this case goes to trial.

>> right, and glenn, because the thing is, i don't understand walt nauta. these are low level people, i don't know how much he's paying them, but they seem to be proactively acting to make sure everyone stays on side. that everyone stays in trump's good graces and that they stay in the camp. i don't see how that necessarily hurts trump, but it seems to me that people like walt nauta are in so much legal jeopardy. it's more likely he'll go to jail than trump in this case. can you make sense of them trying to seemingly pressure another witness to, i don't know, act in trump's behalf the way they are? >> i can, joy. when i handled large rico cases in the courts of washington, d.c., we had any number of defendants who were part of the criminal organization, the enterprise that we were prosecuted and no matter what we tried to do, no matter how much we tried to appeal to the very real probability that they might go to prison for the rest of their lives if they opted not to cooperate with the prosecutors

and testify against the bigger fish, many of them continued to hold fast. in fact, some of them walked into court and took what are called soldier pleas. a soldier plea is somebody who is so entrenched and devoted to the criminal organization and the head of the criminal organization that they will plead guilty to every count in the indictment without any benefit because they're not willing to cross the boss. that is what it feels like is going on here with the walt nautas and perhaps others who will forever remain loyal to donald trump, and that's fine because jack smith has enough other evidence to prove these charges beyond a reasonable doubt. >> that judge has no loyalty to them. she may try to stop trump from going to trial, but she's not going to stop them. let's go to rudy giuliani. seeming of people who want to bring on more legal problems than they already had. here's what politico writes. they may hav defamed them

again, theseye ms and her mom. when the trial en on tuesday morning, an incredulous judge said the comments he made saying i didn'tli i told the truth about this two women, could support another defamation claim. i'm naultd sure how it's reconcilable. this has taken a bit of a toll on him. he's almost 80 years old. there are health concerns for mr. giuliani. so, lisa reuben? they're saying he's old and has health concerns. he's younger than joe biden. is that a way to get out of a defamation free card, he's old and not well? >> no, particularly whereas here the liability has already been established. this is a trial, joy, as you know, that's for damages only. because rudy giuliani already has a liability judgment against him. but the other thing that i would add is continuing to defame someone after you have had that liability adjudicated, that can be part and parcel of a damages award, particularly a punitive damages award. so if you have been told you

already defamed someone, and you continue to spew the same lies, in court, it's fully entitled to consider that in awarding the punitive damages. indeed, donald trump himself may face the same situation in the second e. jean carroll trial that ope in january. >> yeah, andet me read to you from "the washington post." the attacks on the election workers. many messages called ruby freeman and shaye moss traitors. other said they should be hung from trees, close enough to the capitol to hear their necks snapped. it just -- the only argument that we're hearing from the other side, glenn, is that it will ruin giuliani financially if he gets a big fine. again, so what? these women were subjected to death threats. >> not only so what, but so be it, he should be financially ruined because i was taken aback, even knowing who rudy giuliani is and whou he's behaved, on the courthouse steps at the end of the session yesterday, he defamed then

again. he said no, it's true, they were involved in changing votes. this is somebody who is on trial for robbery committing a robbery on his way into his trial. i mean, it is insane, and his lawyer may have said, he's 80 and i can't control everything he does, but you know what, rudy giuliani can control what he does. he chooses not to. he doubles down on his racism and his defamation. and putting these women's lives in jeopardy. and i would just press play on that clip from yesterday for this jury and say, ladies and gentlemen, in case you ever thought rudy giuliani would learn his lesson, watch what he said yesterday. i think that is relevant to not only the defamation issue generally but to the damages. >> let's go realuick to the d.c. case. socases, so little time. the special counsel is going to use trump's phone, so his phone data, it could reveal day to day details of hifinal weeks in office, including his twitter

habits and any aides who had access to his devices. if trump didn't tweet it's going to be wild himself, does that help him in some way? >> yeah, that is why, you don't just rely on media accounts that donald trump tweeted, for example, come to d.c. on january 6th, will be wild, or mid-attack on the capitol, that donald trump tweeted, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what he should have done. the message there, joy, was clear. get him. and his foot soldiers erupted into chants of hang mike pence, which was kind of okay with donald trump, according to witnesses. so yeah, we don't just rely on media accounts as prosecutors. we have to drill down, get the data, have to get the cell site information, which will tell us not precisely, but in a certain area where the phone was at the time it was being used to post these inflammatory messages. so all of that has to be packaged up and presented to the jury during the course of the trial. >> yeah, was it in his tiny little fingers or not. let's talk about this supreme court case. which is going to be in some

ways hell for these justices because it put them right back in the center of politics. either way, there's going to be a lot of people mad about what they decide. seven democrats are now saying that clarence thomas specifically ought to recuse himself. that seem logical given his wife was one of the insurrections that was part of the plot. chances he does it? >> no. absolutely no. clarence thomas is unrepentant about his own ethical issues and problems. i don't believe that clarence thomas believes he has any trouble with respect to his wife. they believe that they have some separation here that the rest of us can't see. >> yeah, they definitely believe they're above to law, but he's not above taking a few pricey gifts. he loves that. thank you, lisa reuben and glenn kirschner. up next on "the reidout," former trump white house aide and key january 6th committee witness cassidy hutchinson gins me to share her fears about a

second trump presidency. "the reidout" continues after this. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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cassidy hutchinson's damning testimony as the key witness to the house january 6th committee revealed a series of stunning insights into donald trump's actions as the attack unfolded. and shocking details about the former president's indifference to the violence that day, including threats to his own vice president, mike pence.

>> i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be f'ing hung. and mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat. he thinks mike deserves it. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. >> now, as trump pursues a second presidency, hutchinson is using her experience to sound the alarm about the former president. she calls an extreme threat to democracy. and joining me now is former trump white house aide cassidy hutchinson, author of "the new york times" best seller, enough. congratulations. >> thank you, joy. >> i love that. i'm very glad it was a best seller because it means people care about your insights more than just your testimony. congrats on that. you're very open in this book and you talk about your journey from being a committed supporter to being horrified by what's happening. so now, as you look at what is still happening and donald trump saying things like he's going to be a dictator on day one, how do you experience that, and what

are your biggest fears? >> well, to start with that, i want to be careful because i do agree and i have been very vocal about talking about how he is re-elected, it is a step towards a dictatorship in the united states. but since i have last discussed that, he has come out and almost made light of it. and i was on the inside, i do know how donald trump likes to message. he messages about things when he's afraid of them. this is speculation but i'm pressed to think he sees this message is working and it's reaching an audience. we do need to sound the alarm bells on this. we need to bring attention to it. we need to do in a responsible way, because if we don't, then he's going to continue making light of it. and amplifying this rhetoric when it's extremely dangerous. everything trump says is extremely dangerous. he has said extremely dangerous things for years that have gotten people killed.

and as we reach this next election cycle, i truly believe that if he is re-elected, then the likelihood this is the last election that we are voting under our constitution is very, very likely. all of that being said, you know, donald trump has showed us who he is and told us who he is for a long time. at the end of the administration, he talked about implementing schedule f, which is essentially a program where he would be able to fire up to 50,000 civil servants and replace them with loyalists. if reports are accurate, there are also groups that are putting together databases of trump loyalists to backfill those positions. so right then and there, we're already looking at a government that is going to be completely stacked with new government employees that aren't tenured and people who are inherently loyal to donald trump. that's not what our country is based upon. that's one element. he's also facing 91 criminal indictments. he could still be under -- the

trial still could be under way in the next election cycle. or they could be settled in his first act in office could be a self-pardon. so we're looking at so many different angles of danger here, and i just think that the more that we talk about this, the more we amplify this, it's extremely important, but we also need to keep in mind that most americans need to be educated on this. and to open up the conversation about what this actually means and how it does very closely resemble a dictatorship at this moment. >> it's a really important question. a lot of people watching the show sort of already believe that. they are already fearful of a second trump term, but there are a lot of people who aren't. we made it through the first term. they're really not afraid of having a second term. jamie raskin gave testimony about this moment that you talked about in your closed door testimony about the kinds of people who were gathering inside of the oval and insuring that

they left, these are the kind of people who would be. this is jamie raskin. >> here are text messages sent by cassidy hutchinson during and after the meeting. you can see, ms. hutchinson reported at the meeting in the west wing was unhinged. the meeting finally broke up after midnight. during the early morning of december 19. cassidy hutchinson captured the moment of mark meadows escorting rudy giuliani off the white house grounds to, quote, make sure he didn't wander back into the mansion. >> the very kinds of people who are being described as unhinged would be the administration. and i would anticipate that donald trump would probably release from prison people like enrique tarrio, people like members of the proud boys and oath keepers. they would be back on the streets. is that something that you think about? and that's probably what would

happen, no? >> i do agree with that. i agree he would bring in people who are extremely loyal to him, and people who are arguably dangerous people. the enrique tarrios, people associated with the proud boys and extremist groups. i don't want to give them oxygen because that's such a long conversation we could have hopefully another day. but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that donald trump would bring in people that he knows are loyal to him, and that will not say no to him. he will bring in people at a senior level, midlevel, and even entry level employees who are not going to push back on him, who will not defect, who will not speak out, and who will not shed light on the dangers that donald trump and his administration poses. just branching off that briefly, too. as we look at this next election cycle, it's not guaranteed at this moment he will be the nominee. we still have time and there's a few months until the primaries. however, we also have to think about when we are talking about

the election, talking about what is happening in congress, we ned to make sure that there are responsible people elected to congress because congress holds the agenda. so if he succeeds and he's elected president, and there's a republican majority in either or both chambers, it's already filled with a bunch of members of congress who are yes people to trump. >> sure. >> they would need to sustain the majority, which means more need to be elected. we cannot be electing people who are dishonest, who do not stand for the constitution, who do not stand for our rule of law and will continue this momentum towards this dictatorship or this populist movement that trump has latched on to. >> that is excellent advice. listen, sometimes you have to take advice from your own people. you're a young person who was inside and you know this man and these people. cassidy hutchinson, thank you so much. i'm glad you wrote this book and i'm hoping everyone will read it. still ahead, ukrainian

president zelenskyy visits the white house and capitol hill amid new reports of the devastating impact the war is having on the russian military. senator raphael warnock joins me next to talk about that and a lot more. we'll be right back. sitting? doesn't matter. i don't even have to touch them. ooo, gangsta. in a hurry? there's not a faster, easier way to put on shoes. they know a 10 when they see it. ♪ if you struggle. ♪ and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com

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millions of people across the globe are in the midst of

celebrating various holidays during what feelsike a dark period in man places. that leaves many faith leaders struggling to find the words for their muslim, jewish, and arab congregants. palestinian l decided to forego their christian festivities in solidarity with their brethren in gaza. many are praying for peace for all of those affects. and here in washington, republicans who often claim to be people of faith and god, have turned their backs on ukrainians in their time of need. >> without supplementing funding, we're rapidly coming to the end of our ability to help ukraine respond to the urgent operational demands it has. putin is banking on the united states failing to deliver for ukraine. we must, we must, we must prove him wrong. >> as we approach christmas on

behalf of all ukrainian families, separated by war and all sons and daughters on the front, ukraine's greatest wish is to have this war victorious. >> these are challenges times where faith and geopolitics are colliding. it's helpful to have a pastor around, even better if they're a senator. joining me is senator and pastor raphael warnock. happy holidays in advance. merry christmas in advance. >> great to be with you. >> thank you. >> a preacher can always find their voice. that's one thing i go about a pastor. let's go through a few of the things. i want to start with ukraine. in the house as well as some in the united stat senate, there is this resistance to providing funding for ukraine, which is still suffering this attack from russia. trying to trade things like border policy, border security for funding.

j.d. vance saying basically, ukraine should cede land and cut a deal. what is going on on the other side of the aisle? >> that's a very good question. this is politics in the worst sense of the word. there is no replacement for american leadership in the world. i have had occasion now on a few opportunities to hear president zelenskyy, to meet him, and i think he's just a very impressive person who is standing up in a critical moment, not only for his country but in terms of the world order. and it's unfortunate that i have colleagues who are reducing such an important geopolitical crisis to typical political horse trading. look, there are issues at the border, and they need to be addressed. i for one am open to any reasonable bipartisan proposal that will get there on the way to what we really need is

comprehensive immigration reform. but this is one of the most fraught issues in our political system. and so unfortunately, not everybody, not all the republicans. but on the other side, you have some republicans who are not willing to support ukraine, no matter what. and they're just using this issue of the border which is very serious, in the most cynical way. i hope that at the end of the day, cooler heads will prevail. certainly, we don't want to see american soldiers on the ground, as putin continues his aggressive move across europe. i think it only makes sense for us to support our friends in ukraine. >> you have tuberville essentially saying, well, you're fought going to go across europe. they can't even get through ukraine. literally in russia, they're bragging on russian television about we're going to go all the way to poland. >> if anything, the ukrainians have exceeded expectations. >> absolutely.

>> i think when this -- when the prospect of all of this began to unfold, the sense was that putin would just roll over ukraine. in no time flat. but these folks are standing up with the kind of valiant spirit and courage and patriotism, and again, i just emphasize that this is about american national security. we still are members of nato. i know that there are some folk out there who think we ought thought be members of nato, but we're members of nato. it's part of the order that has kept us safe over the last several decades, and i would much rather provide some american resources today than have to shed american blood in the future. >> particularly when russia is detaining alexei navalny. he's missing. i want to go into another area which is the other part of the funding that the administration is trying to get, that is toward israel. the administration recently bypassed the congress, including the united states senate, and is approving an order to send tank

ammunition. this is while there's a lot of protests against what's happening in gaza. even president biden today conceded that there's too many casualties and that israel risks losing global support because of the number of deaths. it's 18,000 or more. what do you make of the administration sticking to this policy, to the point where they would bypass congress to send more ammunition to be used against gaza? >> i have to tell you that as a pastor, my heart goes out to the folks who are suffering in that part of the world. first of all, we saw a heinous and despicable attack on the people of israel on october 7th. rape used as a weapon of war, children and babies massacred in ways that bring terrible remembrances of the holocaust and jewish suffering. but palestinian babies and children are every bit as valuable as jewish and israeli children and babies. and somehow, i hope we can get

to peace. which is why i was part of those legislators who called for humanitarian pauses. >> do you support a full cease-fire? >> we're seeing terrible devastation right now. and i'll tell you that way too many civilians have died. and i support getting the people of gaza the resources that they need, and ultimately, we have to get to a two-state solution. that's the only way to have a secure israel living in peace alongside. >> does a full cease-fire, are you in favor as dick durbin is? >> i don't know calling for a cease-fire gets us one. what i want to see is peace. >> let's talk about domestic issues as well. you're seeing a lot of anger over the economy. there's a poll that shows something like 20% of african american voters are saying they would stay home if it's a biden versus trump rematch. there's some rumbling in the african american community, including on issues like gaza, pulling away from joe biden. there are positive things.

you were involved in one of them, getting insulin prices down, health care prices down. but what do you make of the anxiety and the fracturing among the democratic base? >> first of all, i think we are living in really tough times. we went through three years of a pandemic that in some ways we're still digging ourselves out of. think about it, the loss of a million americans alone through this crisis. i think that there is, joy, a kind of low-grade fever that the whole country has. i think that we have been traumatized in ways that we won't fully account for until years later. and in the midst of that, people are concerned about their everyday needs, which is why i have been focused on lowering the cost of prescription drugs. i got an insulin cap to $35 a month for out of pocket costs for seniors. and now i see a bipartisan path for getting that done for people who have insurance, people who don't have insurance.

i think too often our politics has become about the politicians. who is up, who is down, how they're showing up in the polls, who is in, who is out. i think the american people often are saying who cares? and maybe that's what's reflected in the polls. so the pundits will talk, we're a year out from the election. i think what's important is to center the concerns of ordinary people who right now need child care as we approach this child care crisis, who need to not have to choose between buying prescription drugs and buying food. and who are concerned about the safety of their children. i'm a dad. and we shouldn't have to worry when we drop our kids off at 8:00 in the morning, we might not pick them up at 3:00 because we refuse to do what we can do in this country to address the issue of gun violence. i'm vokesed on centering the people, and i think if you center the people, that will be reflected in how the people show

up a year from now. >> and very quickly, your prediction, do you think that joe biden is in a position to win re-election? >> absolutely. >> okay. and you're confident he'll win georgia? >> listen. i'm a witness. you shouldn't sleep on georgia. >> firm but fair. senator and reverend raphael warnock, always good to see you. thank you very much. coming up, university presidents grapple with the fallout from their appearance on capitol hill last week. what the fight over who kept their jobs and who didn't tells us about anti-semitism, campus culture, and the right's embrace of cancel culture, when "the reidout" continues after this.

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ivy league presidents are facing backlash over their reaction to on campus anti-semitism or in the minds of some of their critics, the lack thereof. last week, university of pennsylvania president liz magill, harvard president claudine gay, and m.i.t. president were grilled ove how their institutions responded to the rise in anti-jewish hate since october 7th. their carefully worded responses faced sharp criticism from lawmakers as well as the white house. after intense pressure from donors, politicians, and alumni. penn president liz magill resigned after critics blasted her testimony, claiming she appeared to evade a question posed as a hypothetical of whether students who call for the genocide of jews should be punished. mind you, the questioner was

elise stefanik of new york, a harvard alum. she presented no evidence that such calls for genocide had actually happened. but the answers from magill and the other college presidents could best be described as academic and legalistic, and that became a huge score for the congresswoman. and a potentially job threatening problem for the presidents. and while magill did indeed lose her job over at cambridge, harvard's governing board is backing their president, claudine gay. m.i.t.'s governing board is also standing by their president, but that's not the only noticeable shift in the fallout. over the weekend, saturday night light spoofed the hearing. >> anti-semitism yea or nay. >> i'm sorry, what? >> yes or no? is calling for the genocide of jews against the code of conduct for harvard? >> well, it depends on the context. >> what? that can't be your answer.

i am here today because hate speech has no place on college campuses. hate speech belongs in congress. on elon musk's twitter, in private dinners with my donors, and in public speeches by my work husband, donald trump. >> ding. but it's not just jokes. people are waking up to the fact that this attack on university presidents for many on the right is not actually about anti-semitism. it's about the same old stuff we have s in their fake crt and book banning wars. it's the latest attack on kess on college campuses the murdoch owned "wall street journal" editorial board wrote a piece ostensibly about protecting jewish students on campus, buthe they gave away the game, calling anti-semitism by which it appears to mean anti-israel sentiment, shows a deeper rot on campus. the deeper problem, the one that requires urgent attention, is thequote, anti-american,

anti-western instruction that dominates so many campuses. saying these schools won't root out the dei policies that use race, gender, and sexuality as political weapons to enforce conformity, dictate tenure decisions. they also took issue with harvard's title ix training that says using the wrong pronouns qualifies as abuse. let's not forget who republicans. their unchallenged leader has a long history with anti-semitic tropes. they're down with elon musk and tucker carlson. it's the culture war stuff. that's what this is really about. liz magill, the former penn president, was a constitutional law scholar who clerks for ruth bader ginsburg. like most university campuses, penn is entangled in the anti-woke crusade to eliminate affirmative action, pronouns.

trans people in sports. basically anything that doesn't fall in line with their conservative view of the world. mukill has been a target for a while, especially after leah thomas switched to the women's team and won the ncaa 500 yard freestyle race. the school then nominated her for female athlete of the year. back in september, before the hamas attack, penn donors were already calling on magill to resign over a palestine rights literature festival that took place on campus. critics said it included speakers with a history of making anti-semitic statements, but organizers and attendees rejected that claim. the ire against magill isn't new, and there's a jen ws debate in this country over opposing israel or supporting palestinians is itself anti-semitism, but you know who is disingenuous, elise stefanik.

make it make sense. up next, the outrage at harvard, m.i.t., and penn. fights back pain two ways. for 8 hours of relief.

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calling for the genocide of jews, does that constitute bullying or harassment? >> if it is directed and severe it is harassment. so >> the answer is yes. >> it is a context dependent

decision, congresswoman. >> a congress context dependent dependent decision? >> and in that, was the moment it ended magill's tenure. joining me now is david rothkopf, columnist for the daily beast and a whole host of the deep spate space broadcast. david, thank you for being here. in your view, and you've written a column about the disingenuousness of the attack on these presidents. why, in your view, would that not be a fireable offense to answer in that way? >> first of all, context does matter. no one was calling for genocide against jews. some people were criticizing the policies of the government of israel. other people were calling for the palestinian state was continuous between the jordan river and the mediterranean

sea. now in some contexts doing things like that might be antisemitic's. in some context it might be hate speech but in others in a seminar discussing the origins for example of the current israel palestine situation, it's not hate speech. and so her answer was right. but the real problem that we have here is not just that her answer was correct. it's that the person who was posing this hypothetical question is somebody who has supported replacement theory, has supported a president who is the one who said when there were marchers in charlottesville who were saying jews will not replace, as he said there were very good people there. she comes from a party that supports antisemitic tropes like the george soros attacks that we hear so much of and so you've got to ask yourself, why is this person, whose party has

so many antisemitic subtexts, saying that she is taking this stand? the answer is, they want to be able to bully people into fewer protections not more. they don't believe in islamophobia. they don't believe that people who are gay or who are lesbian or who have other alternative lifestyle choices should be granted safe spaces on campuses. what they want to do is bully that a way where join up with donors and bully that away. it's a good thing the trustees at harvard and it m.i.t. rejected this effort and defended their presidents, whose stances were actually exactly right. >> at harvard claudine gay had the background of laurence tribe and jason fermon whose economics professor former chairman of the polling and you can go on and on. people would be lined up behind her to make sure she was

protected. but what does it say about the status of our culture that a bunch of donors can lineup and decide that they already want, the president out anyway, because they were moderately a thomas or dei. andy victor, essentially, from her job. >> donors have always had disproportionate powers universities. but there has always been an understanding that the academic leadership there would have enough independents to guarantee freedom of ideas, to set rules that ensure that the academic discourse would be open and constructive. and all that was thrown out the window in the heat of the moment. that is what we have to worry about. we live in a time with social media where it is possible for feelings to spin out of control, public outcries to spin out. that can lead, in a moment, to

things like what happened with the firing of a woman who is an extremely distinguished lawyer, a distinguished academic, who did not deserve this faith. >> to go back to your original point, it is very clear, and the wall street journal just kind of admitted it, that what they really want is to reset universities. they really want to do the same thing with k through 12 education, to what they call classic western philosophy which logs the founders, the old system, the dominance of their group, of white americans and of menendez and have this messy stuff about race and lgbtq. they want back what you would learn in 1960. that seems to be the bottom line. >> yeah, they want the white supremacist hymnal. we know what it looks. like it looks like florida. it looks like the state where you can't teach history.

where you can't say the word gay in the classroom. where universities don't guarantee protections to professors who teach those things, where academic freedom is getting more and more constricted. i think what we need to be aware of is that if donald trump is elected president, we're going to see more of this. we're going to see fewer freedoms on campus, less freedom of speech, fewer protections of people. the precise opposite of what they say they are fighting for. >> indeed. that is the warning, i think, that people need to have an early need to understand, that this is political. the other thing they want is to marshal people that wouldn't ordinarily vote for republicans and people like trump into their camp and they think they can do with this way. david rothkopf, your piece is excellent, hope everyone checks it out. thanks for being here. that's tonight reidout. all in with chris hayes starts now. w ith chris hayes starts >> tonig.