love their own stories, and be proud of who they are, to help kids everywhere recognized people with down syndrome are capable, strong, and unique, and that all people deserve to be accepted and loved. you got that right. well, mia, you are a masterpiece. and the show is proud to call you a friend, and cannot wait to see what you do next. and on that very beautiful note, i wish you all a very, very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. thank you for joining me tonight. this time of year, four years,

ago democrats were preparing to impeach donald trump from withholding aid to ukraine in an attempt to get political dirt on joe biden. republicans were not surprisingly outraged. but there was one republican congressman in a particular with a very specific reason for opposing trump's impeachment, a reason that he repeated over and over and over. the founding fathers, the fathers of this country warned against single party impeachment. they said it would be piddly divisive, perhaps irreparably divisive for the country. >> the founders of this country understand single party impeachment, or because they feared it would bitterly and perhaps irreparably divide our nation. >> the founders of this country want against a single party impeachment, you know why, you guys know why. because the fear it would bitterly and perhaps irreparably divide our nation. >> the founding fathers warned us, the spirit single party

impeachment, they knew it would bitterly divide the country, it might be irreparable damage to the country. >> the founding fathers warned us, no single party impeachments. if it impeachment isn't bipartisan, it should not have been, so spoke the founding fathers. that was the message from louisiana congressman mike johnson. congressman johnson was especially concerned about impeachment happening the december before an election year. >> if you don't like the president, he goes on the ballot again after four, yes we have an election in 11 months, let the people decide this. >> today we are once again 11 month out from a presidential election, and speaker mike johnson has decided that he wants to go ahead with a single party impeachment of the sitting president. today, republicans in the house passed their impeachment to a new solution through the -- vote in the full house as soon

as tomorrow but unlike the impeachment of donald trump, republicans do not actually know what their impeachment is about. they have not actually found any conclusive proof of wrongdoing by president biden. now speaker johnson says, that is the point. the speaker says the reason republicans need to impeach president biden without evidence is because the administration has not helped them find that evidence. >> the impeachment inquiry is necessary now as we just explained because we've come to this impasse. the white house is impeding the investigation. they are not allowing witnesses to come forward and thousands of pages of documents. we have no choice. >> they have no choice. the white house isn't providing enough documents or witnesses, so the impeachment, it just has to go forward. i wonder what 2019 might johnson would have to say about that? >> the democrats could and

should have just simply gone a few blocks away to a federal court and get an expedited court order compelling the extra documents and information they requested, that is what has always been done in the past. but they did not do that here, because these democrats don't have time for it. they are trying to beat their own arbitrary completely reckless and machiavellian timeline to take down a president that the loath. >> mike johnston is in a way over his head right now. as he and the republican party barrel toward an unfounded impeachment inquiry, the entire world is waiting on this congress to take action. today, ukrainian president zelenskyy was in washington d.c. to meet with both president biden and speaker johnson about desperately needed aid. right now russia is ramping up its military offensive in ukraine, in what u.s. intelligence says, is an attempt to undermine support for ukraine and western nations, like this one. democrats support sending

ukraine assistance immediately, but house republicans under the leadership of speaker johnson have refused. they are instead demanding that democrats agree to a series of extreme border policies, before signing on to any ukraine aid package. policies like bringing back trump era covid restrictions on immigration, mandating electronic monitoring of immigrants in the u.s. including children, and expediting deportations. so there are some huge looming issues right now. peoples lives are hanging in the balance here. but as of this moment, congress is scheduled to leave washington at the end of this week, not to return until next year. now senate majority leader chuck schumer is calling on congress to stay in session through the next week, but there is no indication that republicans will agree. time is running out, and right now their top priority is impeaching president biden, but they can't really tell you or

anyone why. joining me now is former speaker of the house now speaker -- nancy pelosi. thank you so much for being here, nancy pelosi. it is wonderful to have you anytime, but especially in a moment like this where we are trying to make sense of what is going on with your colleagues across the aisle. i wonder what you think of this impeachment push, and whether the gop is trying to render the concept of impeachment effectively meaningless? >> well, thank you. it is nice to be with you, alex, especially at this difficult time for our country when we have so many needs that we have to meet. we have so many challenges to democracy in ukraine, and our own country, and that the speaker is going down this path. he says he has no choice. the fact, is he has no respect. no respect for the constitution of the united states, no respect for his own members. who is he asking to vote for an impeachment with no basis, with no basis.

you referenced -- a number of years ago because of his refusal to implement and send aid to ukraine that was voted by congress and he was supposed to stand, but was threatened to withhold it unless you got certain favors done for him by president zelenskyy. but he said to me, what is the problem? it is a perfect call. it is perfectly impeachable. so they have no basis. so they're excused for having no basis is they have no basis, yet they are saying to these people, nearly 20 of, them 18 of them are in districts that president biden won. so it is going to be a hard sell for them at home, to say why they went to this careless path. and let me just say one more thing, you ran all the statements that he made about who shouldn't have a one party

impeachment, well our founders knew that we could possibly have a rogue president, but they did not think we would have a rogue congress at the same time. in addition to that, -- mentioned this on the floor this evening an hour special on ukraine, this speaker, a few congresses ago, introduced a bill that said you can't have more than one subject in a bill. and yet he is putting immigration on the ukraine bill. >> i just want to follow up on something you mention, which is the cliff that it appears speaker johnson is leading has biden district republicans over on this impeachment inquiry vote. kevin mccarthy when he was speaker, if you can remember, it happened very quickly, it was over before it began in many ways, but in his speakership yet least understood the political reality that it would not be good for those quote unquote centrist republicans to vote on a biden impeachment. speaker johnson does not seem to understand the political reality of that. what fortunate weights those

republicans who votes yes? >> they have made it decision to go all out with donald trump. donald trump has instigated, this encouraged it further, and now they are all just going down the donald trump path. that is not a good path in some of those districts. we fully intend to win the house in this next election. but in the meantime, we have plenty of work to do, instead of this impeachment, well, what do they have to offer? i don't like to call him president trump in the same sentence, but the former -- of the white house would say we have to overturn me for the affordable care act. others will say we have to pass it, a total ban on abortion in our country. these are the kinds of things they have in store for women and families. these are the kind of kitchen table issues that they have in store should they win, which they must not.

but in the meantime, to keep people distracted, to look affective to their base, this is red meat to their base. let's impeach the president, for no basis, no respect for the constitution, no respect for the president, and certainly don't respect for the house of representatives and their own members. >> i want to focus on that last bit, the lack of respect for the actual office that republicans hold. this congress is on track to be the, i think it is the second least productive congress in modern american history. and you know, a lot of excuses are made for that on the right, which is it is a slim majority, et cetera, et cetera. you are speaker of the house with a very slim majority and managed to get many things done. what would your advice to the current speaker of the house be if he wanted to get anything done? >> in addition to what some of those republicans have said about the slim majority, some

of them have been bragging that they sent all these bills over to the senate. they are ridiculous bills that are never going to see the light of day. but some of them say, we have done a lot of things. one of the staff persons said we sent a letter, and we got the mask mandate removed. we sent a letter, about this, or, that now we are going to have a hearing on it. they are standard for accomplishment is very low, but they're anti-governance, if you remember their anti governance, this is a good thing for them because they are accomplishing nothing. >> i do wonder -- >> nothing good. >> and you mentioned some of the priorities for these republican lawmakers, in a vacuum, the most egregious things really stand out. among them, the war on reproductive freedom, and the most recent comments from their titular head, not their informal had, their front runner donald trump, who wants to replace a woman care. >> yes, imagine that.

>> imagine that. >> when he was president, he said he would replace, he had no replacement. he just wanted to repeal. it was defeated. he was defeated, not by just our maneuvering, but the outside mobilization, the grassroots people, the people who benefit, at the millions of people who benefited from the affordable care act. it wasn't about them talking about provisions, it was them talking about their personal experience. that is what we intend to do. we have already launched the same campaign we did then, we will come full moon around martin luther king weekend to again, have the outside mobilization to protect the affordable care act which has brought care to millions 20 million more people in our country and again benefits including the most important one that affects so many people, the pre-existing conditions,

the benefit of saying you have a pre-existing condition, no longer can you be deprived of care. and we have no more term time limit, whether annual or lifetime time limits. the list goes on about the benefits that would be overturned as well. these are kitchen table issues as are the issues you referenced earlier about a woman's right to choose kitchen table, issues in this in the economic issue, all of it for families about their health and financial well-being about their freedom to fight for democracy here in our country, we -- ukrainians are fighting for their freedom here, whether it is a freedom for lgbt communities whatever people want to read a book, even read a book -- a child to read books in school that had been classics, and are now burned. >> something tells me that former speaker of the house nancy pelosi is ready to talk about book bans, women's,

bodies and health care as much as republicans will let her. speaker pelosi, it is an honor and if you would have you on the program tonight. i really appreciated. >> my pleasure, but remember, the longer they take for, ukraine more people will, that more women will be raped, more children will be kidnapped, and it will be all on them. we have to get them to move. thank you for giving some more exposure to this issue tonight. >> thank you for all you do. i appreciate it. >> joining me now is new york times columnist michelle goldberg. michelle, it's great to see you here, to sort of unpack what we just talked about. first, so many things to talk, about first the impeachment push, as zelenskyy is effectively begging hat in hand for the u.s. congress to do something about an incredibly desperate situation over in ukraine, this cynicism, to me, is astounding. i wonder if you think if it resonates the way it can and should with the american public. >> i think the american public is so polarized that i'm not

sure -- i mean, i think there is still a middle and on ukraine aid specifically, i do think that there are people who are right leaning who are inspired by the heroism of the ukrainian people, absolutely. but one function of donald trump has been to polarize a lot of the republican party in favor of vladimir putin. there's a connection between this cynical impeachment push and the decreasing willingness of republicans to support ukraine. it's true that we can't articulate what republicans are impeaching joe biden for, which is telling, but at least part of the impeachment push is a resurrection of this same conspiracy theory that got donald trump impeached. donald trump was impeached for trying to strong-arm zelenskyy to implicate biden in his bogus corruption scandal. the republicans are once again trying to implicate biden in this bogus corruption scandal, and sort of act as if donald trump's accusations had been

legitimate. that is part of the same sort of, they are caught up in anti ukrainian propaganda, both in terms of impeachment, but also much more seriously in terms of their willingness to abandon ukraine at this critical junction in the war. >> that they'll sacrifice lives for political gain. which we by the way saw during covid but this is just another example even if they're not necessarily american lives. i do have to ask you about the impeachment push. because i feel you give some strategic credit to republicans. there is a common thread between trump's impeachment and bidens. i really do worry that the more you say biden was impeached and trump was impeached, it renders the gravity of it somewhat meaningless. >> that's why they're doing it. >> yes. and i worry that it's going to be quite effective. >> yeah, i do too. we people will say they were both accused of different things. it's very clear that the reason

that, and i think some republicans and said this, we want to give trump ammunition to say, to impeach presidents running against each other and so just kind of lessened the gravity of his double impeachment. but at the same time, yes, it's hard for people to keep straight, especially when it comes to ukraine and burisma and victor shokin and all these foreign names in moving parts and i think it does -- and people become very cynical and just think they're all corrupt. they must have both done something. there must be something shady going on with ukraine, which bleeds into -- i think, maybe it makes sense that we've given them enough money. >> i wonder, in terms of managing the funding to ukraine, which seems warranted and desperately needed, whether it was a mistake. former speaker pelosi mentioned it was a mistake to tie immigration and all of this,

but it was president biden who initially basically attach the immigration funding to the ukraine funding, and gaza funding. what does that look like? -- as a mistake? >> i think it looks like it's given republicans -- i mean, i can't see if it's a mistake that can't see if it would get this funding in the absence of this. but i do think that it's given republicans this enormous leverage because negotiations are often about who cares more. they really don't care that much about ukraine if at all. they care a lot about the border. and so they are willing to, they are quite willing to play chicken with the future of ukraine as a nation if it means they're going to get the border funded. >> the sweetener's draconian border policy. that's where the modern today republican party is at. michelle goldberg, you are not done here yet. i would bring you back in a few minutes to talk about another massive story in tonight's news, and that is the nightmare in the state of texas as elected

officials in the states -- supreme court start directing reproductive health care. but first, the supreme court may soon be deciding whether donald trump is immune from prosecution. we're gonna get the latest on that from neal katyal. that's next. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. >> i could stand in the middle i'm here to thank you. of fifth avenue and shoot somebody, and i wouldn't lose any voters. okay? it's incredible. >> that remark has followed donald trump ever since before said it during the 2016 campaign. it followed him all the way to new york's second circuit court of appeals in 2019 where a judge cited that comment when asking trump, and one of his lawyers, about the scope of presidential immunity as it pertained to a subpoena in a criminal investigation. at the time trump's lawyer tried to argue that a sitting presidents immunity is absolute

that yes, donald trump could theoretically shoot someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. that argument ultimately failed when the entire supreme court including justices samuel alito and clarence thomas -- when they all agree just being president did not grant trump the immunity he was seeking. but donald trump is trying a variation on this theme as part of his defense in special counsel jack smith's 2020 election interference case. about allegedly criminal conduct heat engaged in while he was still a sitting president. now jack smith wants the supreme court to weigh in on this quickly. the supreme court has agreed to think about taking up the presidential immunity question on an expedited basis, and that goes against trump's strategy of choice, to do whatever he can to delay this trial. joining me now is neal katyal, former acting solicitor general under the obama administration, someone who knows what to lots

of with the high court. nick neal, thank you for being here, and i'm eager to hear thoughts are and whether the supreme court takes this up on an expedited basis. >> i think jack smith did the right thing by using this procedure called -- circular -- before judgment to bypass the court of appeal and say to the supreme court decided this now. i think the supreme court is going to decide it. i think they're going to agree to hear the case and i think they will if not unanimously, pretty darn close to it rule against criminal defendant donald trump. that's for a couple of reasons, but the most important of which, alex, is the extraordinary thing that trump is trying to argue, which is that he can murder someone and get away with it, that being president gets him and get out of jail free card. here's where it's even stronger claim that what he said last time in the -- case the your flashing before, you didn't quite did he could get away with it.

he said while he is a sitting president he can't be investigated. but his lawyer was very clear, saying i'm not seeking permanent immunity, that is once trump leaves office he could be prosecuted. now trump has left office. jack smith is prosecuting him as a former president. i know trump still thinks he's president, but he's not. and the reality based world. the supreme court is gonna say, how can it be that a former president has absolute immunity? that's just not american. >> president immunity is not something america gives its presidents, last i checked, but i'm not a supreme court justice. neal katyal, how does trump's team respond to this? they have to file a response to jack smith's notion. it's an odd position for trump to be in. smith is effectively calling his bluff here, is he not? >> exactly. so trump has already issued some sort of social media statement saying that jack smith is playing games, which is bizarre because if anything,

i've sat in the chair authorizing appeals for the government and making decisions about -- judgment, but the thing i was worried about when you try to bypass a court of appeals is that it will look like that you're trying to gain the system, that you don't trust the court of appeals because of the composition of it. you're the composition for appeals in washington, d. c., is overwhelmingly against trump. it's all basically rule of law people, which is the definition against trump. jack smith is still saying i want to bypass that court. there is no allegation against the should appear. it's just simply a matter of time, i checked smith said. this is exactly what happened with the special prosecutor in the nixon case in 1974. i think trump can try with the filing next week, but i think it will go just about as well as his merits argument will before the united states supreme court, should the court agreed to hear the case. it will look just like the

mazars one which flashed on the screen before, a unanimous loss for donald trump, or pretty darn close to it. >> i've been interested in the presidential immunity question here, not so much because i'm a legal scholar, and i'm interested in testing the outside balance of the law, because it seems like a fairly effective delaying mission method for trump, not just because of its merits but because of the way the courts work. i wonder how real even with even if the supreme court takes this up on an expedited calendar. >> i think it's a realistic fear that the march 4th date will be posted. pushed. the question is, by how much? it's pretty easy for the supreme court to resolve this case. donald trump's lawyers are saying the supreme courts never decided whether a president has absolute immunity is a former president. that's because it's such a ridiculous question. i think it's easy for the court to decide. and maybe it will delay things

by a few weeks. but i don't think longer than that. this is not a hard case. >> one more for you, neil, in neal katyal, in terms of what could happen while this is working its way through the courts. there's talk of a stay, that of course trump would like, that jack smith has been pleading against, if you will. how much can judge chutkan do while the d. c. circuit court decide what they're gonna do with this? only a little bit. >> i argued the supreme court gave last year about this question. and basically the supreme court said that while a case is on appeal, much of it cannot go forward. and so, some things can like the gag order and perhaps some discovery disputes in the lake. like. but some cannot. and, so that's another reason why jack smith was so smart to file this motion that he did yesterday that bypassed the court of appeals. >> --

blough calling from the special counsel. we will see what happens. neal katyal, -- . thank you for your time tonight, my friend. >> thank you. >> much more ahead tonight, including the strangely tight grip donald trump has on evangelical averted voters. tim alberta, new author of the kingdom, the power, and the glory will join us to explain how this happened. but first, there is one case out of texas that republicans really, really, really don't want to talk about. michelle goldberg will be back to discuss that, coming up next. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. >> yesterday, the texas supreme

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court decided that kate cox, the woman with the life threatening nonviable pregnancy, did not qualify for a medical exception for the states near total ban on abortion, thereby overturning a district court ruling. and cox, who could not wait any longer, had already left the state to seek an abortion. in a statement, cox's lawyer responded if kate cox can't get in abortion in texas, who can? now, cox may have gotten her abortion, but this particular fight is not over. the are hundreds of women like kate cox, nearly dying from non viable life-threatening pregnancies in states where they are denied

abortions, and 20 of them have sued the state of texas this year. they want the state supreme court to clarify the medical exemptions that are part of the states abortion ban. texas attorney general ken paxton's office has argued that the law is already clear, that kate cox's case highlights the utter absurdity of that argument. in her latest, called new york times opinion writer michelle goldberg interviewed cox's lawyer, molly -- dwayne, who said, i think it's the clearest message you could have possibly received from a antiabortion state that they never meant the medical exemption to mean anything at all. join me now is michelle goldberg, a columnist for the times. michelle, thanks so much for being here. i am astounded, and appalled, by what is unfolding in texas. you write in your piece, right-wing politicians and those who support them would rather inflict unimaginable suffering on women, then relax the tiniest bit of control over their medical decisions. and you make the case that if they had actually relaxed their

control over women's bodies, this actually could have played well for them, in some scenario. can you talk about that? >> well, almost as soon as the dobbs decision came down, we started hearing these horror stories. they were inevitable, you heard them in countries where abortion was illegal, it was obvious that was going to happen here. you started hearing about women with wanted pregnancy that had gone horribly awry, or miscarriages that have been totally mismanaged, women being told that they had to wait until they were -- until they were treated, or they had to wait until they were on the verge of losing a major bodily function, in the language of some of these laws. even if, it was inevitable that they were going to get there. and you had a lot of doctors feeling paralyzed, like they didn't know what they could do, and when they would face prosecution. and when those stories started coming up, the response of the anti-abortion movement was this kind of conspiracy theory that pro-choice forces are making things more complicated than they are, they are exaggerating

the, they are exaggerating. right, they are basically making doctors saying that they can't intervene, when really they can. because of course, these laws are meant to protect women as well as babies. and that was always a ridiculous argument, but i feel like this shows just how ridiculous it is. because, this was someone who was seeking clarity, the senator for -- reproductive rights, which represented, her is seeking clarity. and if they had gotten that clarity, if you had had say ken paxton, the attorney general of texas, either abiding by the lower court ruling, not threatening hospitals, that if they let this abortion go forward after the lower court ruling said it should be permitted, that he was, that they would face possible prosecutions. >> felonies! >> if he hadn't done, that it would strengthen these argument that they're actually, that we might ban abortion, but that we actually do have good faith exemptions for people in

emergency situation. >> and that we care about the women, who are carrying these children. in many cases. >> right, and it's like, this pregnancy, her pregnancy is doomed, so it's not a matter quote unquote, of saving a baby. and so they could have, if they had wanted to i think man made their abortion ban look slightly more politically palatable, but they couldn't do that. you saw him, it's true that some republicans don't want to talk about this, but ken paxton seems happy talk about this, right. he was willing to fight this woman and her doctor, and her lawyer, like personally and to the bitter end. and for what? >> the personal, the personal punishment directed at this woman by the state, telling her that she wasn't effectively dying enough to merit in abortion, is unthinkable. the idea that a man whatever

would he ever have to go to a panel of judges to get a vasectomy, and then be denied it through the appeals process, it's just not something that whatever happened in america. and i think that there are women, men, people across the country who look at this and say wow, overturning roe was one thing, this is another level of cruelty. unusual cruelty here. i don't know how, just setting aside the human cost of this, the political cost of this seems extraordinary for republicans. >> right, and i think that it's important to realize that as much as, what makes this case unique is not kate cox's medical circumstances, it's her unbelievable bravery and being willing to go public and fight this, in the middle of a catastrophe that a lot of other women in texas and other states with abortion bans have faced. >> the notion that there are these people out there who very much want these children, who look like republican voters, cannot get them. and you have to go out of state, or put themselves through these

ordeals, is just decidedly un-american. and that is what is unfolding in the state of texas today. michelle goldberg, always writing so brilliantly about the horrible issues of our time. it's great to see you. coming up, evangelicals in iowa have propelled donald trump to a record lead, with just over a month to go until the caucuses. we are going to discuss the evangelical alignment with the maga base, that's next. called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. #1-prescribed ingrezza is the only td treatment for adults that's always one pill, once daily. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide.

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were going to come to a red sea moment in our republican conference and in our country at large. and the lord told me very clearly, prepare, and be ready, be ready for? what we're coming to a red sea moment? what does that mean. lowered? we are ultimately 13 people who ran for the post. and the lord kept telling me to wait, wait, wait. so i waited, i waited and then at the end when it came to the and the lord said now, step forward. >> mike johnson, the most powerful elected republican in the country last week, described his call to run for speaker. johnson said that god had revealed to him that johnson would be a moses-like figure, helping to lead the republican party and the country through a red sea moment. which is, quite a call. as an evangelical, johnson often use a scripture to promote policy goals. he has a history of questioning the separation of church and state, he essentially believes that the bible is a governing document.

and that puts him right in the mainstream of american evangelicals today, who want to combine church teachings with policy. now a new nbc news des moines register poll shows donald trump with 51% support in iowa. it is the largest lead ever recorded by a republican this close to the caucuses. and, it is due entirely to trump's support among a majority of evangelicals in that state. and that's different from eight years ago, when trump lost iowa to ted cruz. back then, trump only had the support of one in five evangelical voters. tim alberta writes in his new book, the kingdom, the power, in the glory, american evangelicals in an age of extremism, that for decades, evangelicals were skeptical of engaging in politics, or straying from their central focus on the churches teachings. that all changed in the 1970s and 80s, with the advent of jerry falwell and the moral majority. falwell, alberta writes, made a

conscious decision to start packaging the cross with the flag, and others followed. under falwell's tutelage, alberta writes, preachers who once wanted total detachment from worldly affairs, or now trafficking in jeremiads of civilizational collapsing winning huge audiences of older conservative christians who fear that the american american apocalypse was nigh -- as more evangelicals yearning for combat politics in the pulpit. to some evangelicals, alberta writes, the purpose of the church is now to own the libs with an aggressive, identity identity aryan with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by 50%

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you would call a model christian, he is not into asking for god's forgiveness, he could not name a single verse, any verse, when asked for his favorite bible passage. he has openly mocked conservative religious leaders. but beyond his handing of the supreme court over to hard-line conservatives, evangelicals continue to see donald trump as their defender. the atlantic's tim alberta has a new book out, and in that, he questions how and why the

evangelical movement has flocked towards politicians like trump. politicians saw the pointlessness in talk about servanthood, about humility, about unity and peace and love your neighbor. the market for such a message had long since disappeared. the demand was for domination, and republicans like trump and desantis are happy to supply it. their appeal to evangelicals had everything to do with acting like champions, and nothing to do with acting like christ. joining me now is tim alberta, staff writer for the atlantic, and author of this new, formidably excellent tome, the kingdom, the power, and the glory, american evangelicals in an age of extremism. tim, thank you for being here, congratulations on, it's so deeply reported, and so well written, and so of the moment. >> thank you. >> thank you for being here. first, trace if you will, how trump effectively went from being like a punch line among religious conservatives, to

being their retribution, in his words, their hero. >> you know, i think 2016 was just, it was transactional. for everyone involved, right. a lot of these white evangelical supporters who are now his staunchest allies, back then, i mean, eight years ago, it's like easy to forget now, but they were deeply skeptical of trump. they were highly suspicious of trump. i mean, he had to put mike pence on the ticket, he had to release a list of supreme court nominees, he had to promise to put pro-lifers on the bench. >> he had have leonard leo like sitting on his shoulder. >> truly yes, all of these gestures to sort of assuage those concerns and say listen, i will deliver for you. i'm not one of you, but i will deliver for you. and the folks said, okay, we don't like this guy, we don't trust this guy. but what choice do we have? hillary clinton, it's a binary thing, we are going to give him our votes in exchange for these policies. that transactional relationship has now morphed into something else entirely, where they do view him as this protector figure, this defender figure and i think in many, ways, alex,

it sort of boils down to this under siege mentality. you will hear it from christians all over the country, this idea that christianity is in the crosshairs, that their idealized christian america is slipping away. and if the barbarians are at the gates, then we need a barbarian to fight for us, to defend our way of life. and that's how they've come to view trump. >> i have to ask, because there was the same sort of feeling from conservatives in the 1970s, and to some degree the beginning of the 80s, that they were under assault from the liberal minority, desegregation, the end of school prayer, and this is the environment in which jerry falwell created the moral majority. trump's sort of ascendance in the evangelical movement seems a more radical, much more radical version of that fight. i wonder whether that's a testament to donald trump just juicing the evangelical movement and making it angrier

and more keyed up or whether the movement itself is on its way down that path of desiring someone so aggressive, so much a pugilist? >> i think it's a combination of those things. there's no question that steadily here over the last 50 years much of the white evangelical movement has been conditioned more and more to expect not just to be in the culture wars but to dominate the culture wars. i would also say that the rules of engagement have evolved. there was a time when folks who were part of the crusade with falwell, sort of recognized that at the end of the day we are christians. we care about these conservative issues. we care about winning republican elections, but we are, above all, christians, our citizenship is in heaven, we need to adhere to biblical teachings. on the how -- >> the bible was on the front burner. >> in other words, they were

viewing politics through the prism of their faith instead of now i think at the heart of the problem a lot of these folks are viewing their faith through the prism of politics. this in justifies the means politics. jerry falwell senior launched this almost holy war against jimmy carter in part because if you recall jimmy carter had the temerity to give an interview to playboy magazine in 1976. you come full circle 50 years later, jerry falwell junior, after vouching for donald trump in front of a room full of evangelicals, they pose for a photo back to trump tower, thumbs up in front of playboy magazine. that 50 year arc went from politics being downstream of culture to culture and everything else being downstream of politics. if we don't win these elections, if we don't dominate these culture wars, than nothing else matters. >> you mentioned some inflection points and crises, domestically, that ratchet up the temperature and make donald trump ever more, even more positioned to be the savior of

the evangelical movement or evangelical voters. one of them is covid. can you talk about the way in which, ways unseen to the broader public, the way in which that affected the evangelical community? >> listen, this ties into what we were just discussing. the seeds of the moral panic here were sown a long, long time ago. specifically if you grew up in the evangelical world, as i did, you're very familiar with this armageddon mindset, this rhetoric, this idea that an imminent clash in america between the good god fearing bible believing christians who want to preserve our christian heritage and those godless evil secularists of the culture who want to weaponize government and come after us, we go shutdown are churches, persecute christians, just abolish god from public life.

so if you have been suing in that rhetoric and those warnings of the apocalypse, suddenly covid-19 arrives and you have these governors issuing shutdown orders, telling people they can't go to church, even if it's just for a couple of weeks. alex, a lot of people in that setting say yes, see, i told you. we knew this day was coming. it was just a matter of time. and then really it became this question of, okay, are you going to stand-your-ground and fight? fight for your beliefs, your country, your god, or are you gonna be a coward? are you gonna back down? you're gonna get pushed around by the regime and by these evil secularists? you just can't overstate how deeply that divide grew and how it really fractured congregations around the country, including pastors who, like,, check every box, they're conservative theologically, culturally, politically, these are not progressive pastors in these churches. but they said okay i'll shut down my church for a few weeks for public health to protect my cardigans, love your neighbor. just try to be self sacrificial. they became marxists. they became apostates

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