you're finding is real, not a hoax. >> i just don't use tiktok to establish what is objectively true in the world. i love me some tiktok, but it's more entertainment than sources of objective truths. >> out here at complex -- >> not all offices are the same, because i'm at the complex office for the first time. and as you can see, it's popping. >> says "the beat" with ari melber. it works beautifully. >> only news show with a lighter. >> only news show with a lighter. >> that's some of what we're doing on tiktok. thanks for spending time with us. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i have lost my sense of security. all because a group of people starting with number 45 and his

ally rudy giuliani decided to scapegoat me and my daughter. >> whatever happened to them, which is unfortunate for other people overreacting. but everything i said about them is true. >> not true, rudy. a judge has already ruled that you defamed ruby freeman and shaye moss who tonight are awaiting a jury's decision on how many millions you will have to pay for your election lies. also tonight, the strange axis of putin, orbon, and the republican party and their embrace of authoritarianism. >> plus, the court trump largely built, and now trump is banking on his hand-picked justices to come through for him and keep him out of jail. but we begin tonight in a washington, d.c. courthouse, where an eight-person jury has begun their deliberations into how much one rudolph william

giuliani should have to pay in damages to the two georgia election workers he defamed following the 2020 presidential election. accusing them of engaging in election fraud. giuliani was expected to testify today as the lone defense witness in his case, but pulled out at the last minute. even after claiming earlier in the week that when he testified, we would get the whole story that would prove he told the truth. but the real truth is that this is just the latest example highlighting giuliani's spiraling downfall during his second act in life. that second act involved being at the center of many of donald trump's most insidious and damaging scandals that ultimately led to both of trump's presidential impeachments. as well as what we're seeing play out with the house republican efforts to impeach president biden. remember, it was giuliani who trump sent to ukraine in 2019 to try to dig up dirt on then candidate biden and his son hunter. to peddle false information about the family's dealings in

ukraine, including with the ukrainian energy company burisma. giuliani's pursuits involving pressuring ukrainian officials to investigate the baseless conspiracy theories he was hawking. these are the efforts leading to trump's notorious call with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy resulting in trump's first impeachment. giuliani then became the frontman for trump's next big lie, that the 2020 election was stolen. from the infamous four seasons total landscaping presser to the hair dried dripping rnc presser and everything in between, rudy was relentlessly acts as trump's conspiracy attack dog, including by defaming election workers ruby freeman and shaye moss, which he is literally paying for right now. it also led to the events of january 6th, and trump's second impeachment. the defamation trial wrapping up right now is just one of a host of financial, legal, and other crises giuliani is facing. all adding to the total ruin of a man once dubbed america's

mayor. and as the daily beast points out, the giuliani downfall has been slow but precipitous. 2021 was the ruining of his professional reputation, with new york and the district of columbia suspending his law license for spreading lies and his role in the january 6th insurrection. this year exposed his financial ruin. next year, it could be prison. because we can't forget that he along with donald trump and numerous other codefendants are facing multiple criminal charges in georgia's election interference case. a case that could leave giuliani, a former u.s. attorney who hade his name prosecuting rico cases against mobsters in new york, to be put in jail for many of the same racketeering charges. joining me now is the reverend al sharpton, president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" on msnbc. and david corn, bureau chief for mother jones and an msnbc political analyst. and rev, i want to start with

you because you know rudy giuliani, you have known him for a long time. it's interesting because the way that i kind of looked at donald trump is that he was like a national rudy. like, he behaved nationally the way rudy behaved toward new yorkers, those of us who lived in new york experienced it. he was sort of a mini trump. to what extent do you think, knowing both of these men, to what extent was rudy influencing trump to believe the lies and conspiracy theories that he at least claims to believe? >> it's clear that trump's political behavior is one he learned watching rudy giuliani, and the new york political scene of bullying people, of racial division, one against the other. i think that because in many ways donald trump learned the trade of politics looking at a guy like rudy, rudy probably had a lot of influence on how donald trump was going to react to

losing an election. and also, because rudy giuliani was a heralded u.s. attorney and then became america's mayor, he had the credentials to make advice that one could take seriously, even when you know you're motivated by your own ego in the terms of trump to almost want to finish the lines that rudy feeds you, but you have the comfort of knowing here's this very credible, great figure that knows law, saying yes, this theory, yes, this theory. and the desperation that rudy giuliani showed in trying to attach himself to donald trump whether it was because he wanted limelight, no one knows. but the fall that he's taken and has not been able to at any point abort the fall, yes, he's been slow, but it's been steady. at no point did he try to catch

himself and save his own legacy, and here we sit looking at a civil jury waiting to see how much he must pay in money that reportedly he will not have anyway, but he still has a criminal trial. none of us that were critical of him during his years as mayor when he had a very hostile relationship with the black community, particularly in new york, could have predicted that rudy would fall this far and this fast. >> right, and david, the thing is it is spectacular in the sense this guy was a u.s. attorney. he knows the law. he prosecuted rico cases. yet he was willing to commit felonies, willing to beclown himselves by going overseas to prove this cockamamie theory that the real theft of the election was ukraine trying to steal the election from trump, just because trump was made he got caught working with russia to get elected in 2016. it's all about trump's feelings and emotions that rudy seems to be sort of trying to baby sit and put a binky in his mouth and say no, i'm prove all your crazy

theories are true, and yet, how wild is it to you as a journalist watching this that this guy was willing to commit crimes, including now, lying outright in a ridiculous lie against these two election workers causing them to be humiliated and attacked and threatened with death? >> it's quite a narrative. he went from crusading prosecutor in new york, locking up mob bosses and wall street crooks, went very hard on them, to then becoming a demagogic marer to now a sort of clownish figure. while he was -- he was the one according to the testimony before the house january 6th committee who basically told trump on election night, don't concede. go out there, say you won. there are also reports he was a little inebriated when he did this. i don't think trump needed a lot of egging on, but rudy's job

used to be to lack up crooks and respect the law, telling the president to lie about victory, and then he goes on in those months afterwards with these clownish crusades. i mean, one highlight or lowlight of that whole point was when he went to rusty bowers, the republican speaker of the house in arizona, and said he wanted him to block the electors. and rusty said, he testified to this, you know, i said bring me the evidence. and i'll look at it. and then he flies out there with jenna ellis, another trump attorney, and shows up for the meeting, and rusty says where is the evidence? they look at each other, go, we kind of left it in the hotel room. and he goes, we have theories but we don't have a lot of evidence. and a guy who spent decades in the legal field to behave this way is almost unfathomable.

i don't know what made the turn in him. i have a theory. i think it has to do with his hatred of hillary clinton that put him in the trump camp. an important thing to remember at this moment is after this, he has to deal, as the rev noted, with this criminal case in atlanta. there are three attorneys, former trump attorneys, three, kenneth chesebro, sidney powell, and jenna ellis. and they have all worked with rudy in trying to overturn the election. and they all have now pleaded guilty, and they have said, crimes were committed, by pleading guilty, they have conceded in this effort to overturn the election that he led, crimes were committed. two of those people, sidney powell and jenna ellis, were at that infamous hair dye dripping press conference. i don't go what we call it. so his own comrades have said, we committed crimes. really leaves him on a pretty big hook. >> yeah, and the thing is, rev,

i think that rudy giuliani is one of those people who is a triumph of substance over -- of form over substance. people thought he was this great mayor because he had one good day on 9/11, but he's also the guy who was forcing the nypd to walk his girlfriend's dogs. that's not his wife, that would be his girlfriend he was cheating with. he announced he would divorce his wife in a tv press conference. his is not a guy who was really what he said he was. he tried to stay in office for a third term illegally and said after 9/11 i'm just going to stay. i want to read the clong argument. days after mr. giuliani re -- day after day, mr. giuliani reminds you who he is, an attorney for the plaintiffs he said mr. giulia defense strategy was to convince jurors he was more important than the women he defamed. rich, famous people have ordinary people are replaceable, worthless. his defense is his reputation. his comfort, and his goals are more important than those of ruby freeman and shaye moss.

this is a fiction and it ends today. this is also someone who made money off 9/11. let me play one of the voice mails left for ruby freeman. this was played in the trial. >> you're going to jail, ruby. you're going to get locked up, ruby. that's election fraud, ruby. what was on the usb drive, ruby? you are all going to [ bleep ] jail, you piece of [ bleep ]. >> rev, if you actually know what rudy was like, it seems like this is kind of the fitting end. he played in racism. racism was his stock and trade as mayor, and this is how he ends, just one of his many cases. >> and when you look at the fact that his being mayor, he was the one that champions broken windows, stop and frisk, where he did not feel that parts of the city mattered like other parts of the city, that we had no rights that anyone had to

respect. he would meet with black leaders when we had a shooting of a young man who took his key out in the vestibule of his house and the police shot him 41 times hitting him 19 times, and it was his keys, not a gun. and rudy wouldn't even meet with black leaders, forget black activists like me. he wouldn't meet with the state comptroller. he's always operated like it's us against them and we are more important. now, the irony, i would say, what happens with god's will, is two black women are the first to bring him where the black community suffered in his being mayor. it's ironic that two black women that he thought were marginal and unimportant, and he couldn't even take the stand and testify. let's remember, he said he was going to take the stand. he was going to be able to stand up to all of this and expose the

truth, and at the end, he was a no show. he went from being a champion to being roberto doran, no moss. that's what happened today. >> last word to you on david corn. the georgia 2020 election federal trial, unpaid legal fees. sexual assault and harassment charges, really gross, and also this defamation charge that could bankrupt him. your thoughts on the twilight of rudy giuliani? >> you know, i have always thought that one of the smallest type of person one can be is a bully. to use your power to punch down, and that's what he did with ruby freeman and shaye moss. he thought, and i think the rev just made this point, that he was more important, he was bigger. he could do whatever he wanted with their lives. these are people who are election workers. you know, people like this volunteer and go to work across

the country every day to preserve our democracy. he had no respect. he had no respect as i noted earlier for the rule of law or for any facts. it was all whatever he could get away with because he was rudy giuliani. well, the fact that they brought down this bully is finally justice. >> it is indeed. and we're awaiting that verdict still. we'll look tomorrow. reverend sharpton, david corn, thank you. up next on "the reidout," maga republicans joined forces with vladimir putin and his hungarian henchman viktor orban to boost movements around the world at the expense of democracy. "the reidout" continues after this. " continues after this but that all changed when a physician specialist told me about axonics therapy. it's given me real, long-lasting relief from my symptoms. visit findrealrelief.com to get help arranging an appointment with an expert physician that can determine if axonics therapy

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and hermetically sealed russian president vladimir putin held a four-hour press conference, making it explicitly clear that there will be no peace until he accomplishes his stated objective of complete control of ukraine. he also mocked western resolve in the region. >> translator: the peace will come when we reach our goals. there have been important things for free, freeloading, but it will come to an end sooner or later. all the things that the westerners had promised were supplied, but all that was annihilated.

>> putin, who has held power for nearly 24 years announced last we he's running for re-election. what he didn't tell the mostly propagandist reporters is his troops have suffered devastating losses. nearly 80% of russian military personnel have died in ukraine. putin's press conference came on the very same day his closest ally and fellow autocrat hungarian prime minister viktor orban, marched into a 27 nation european union sumwit the stated knoll of knee capping ukraine's attempt to join the eu. the 26 other countries had different plans. they voted to begin negotiations for ukraine's membership while orban stepped out of the room. they have yet to determine aid to ukraine. this is a major victory for ukraine, as their president, volodymyr zelenskyy, has been traveling the globe to plead his country's case. congressional republicans have abandoned ukraine, despite overwhelming support in both parties and both houses of

congress, and aid will likely lapse because republicans insist on debating a topic wholly unrelated to ukraine, american border policy. meanwhile, thousands of ukrainians continue to die as u.s. congressional republicans, putin, and orban work together to deliver russia a victory. fiona hill, a forme official at the u.s. national security council, specializes in russian and european affairs, warned of how devastating it would be if ukraine were abandoned. she tells politico, the problem is that many members of congress don't want to see president biden win on any front. people are incapable now of separating off giving biden a win from actually allowing ukraine to win. they're thinking less about u.s. national security, european security, international security, and foreign policy and much more about how they can humiliate biden. she also makes clear this isn't just about russia. it has larger ramifications for

iran, china, and north korea because a military failure for ukraine is going to shift the entire balance in the indo-pacific. meanwhile, the national defense authorization act is heading to the president's desk, and buried in it is a bipartisan rebuke of donald trump and president putin. it contains legislation that would prevent any president from withdrawing the united states from nato without approval from the senate or an act of congress. joining me now is anne applebaum. i want to get your comments on the last bit, because publicly, republicans behave as if anything donald trump wants is what they truly want. but behind the scenes, you have people like marco rubio who is very obedient to trump publicly working to make sure if he becomes president, he can't withdraw us from nato by himself. what do you make of that sort of duality? >> i think it's important to first take a step back and ask why this is important. and just to echo what fiona hill said. you know, the world is watching

the u.s. and its allies in ukraine. are we able to stay together? can we stay united? will we keep behind ukraine? will we make sure ukraine doesn't lose? putin's press conference today was all about trying to prove that that wouldn't happen. he made dismissive comments about the west falling apart, so the deeper issue is there a collective west? do we believe in democracy, are we willing to support other democracies? i think actually, probably most republicans, certainly most republicans in the senate, still believe in that. they still think that, you know, democracy is important, and collected defense matters. but in public, they are increasingly likely to kowtow to trump, not to speak too loudly, because they know that he's now the leader of their party and they have to go along with what he says. he's much more inclined to agree with viktor orban or vladimir putin in his scorn for other democracies.

>> what's the significance of the eu considering allowing ukraine in? and especially doing so while viktor orban is out of the room? >> it's really significant. it's an important -- it will be a big psychological boost for the ukrainians. it means the europeans are already talking about what's going to happen after the war, how ukraine will be integrated with the rest of europe, how it will become a normal country again. it opens all kinds of avenues to investment. it's very, very important. and i understand that there was a deal made that orban who has objected to ukraine being part of the eu and who has tried to block aid to ukraine over the last several years, the deal was that he would, as you said, he would leave the room. he was a -- a lot of pressure was put on him even to do that. again, he's aligned himself with these autocratic forces around the world. with russia actually also with china, with trump. you know, all of those are

countries that or leaders or political movements who have a lot of scorn for democracy, who believe autocracy is a better system, and they seek to support one another wherever they can. >> and you know, what strikes me too is despite russia's failure to annex ukraine, they have lost so many troops. they're lying to their own public about how successful it is to try to annex this enormous country that doesn't want anything to do with them, but it is still sending a signal. am i doo alarmist to think the leader in venezuela looks at what they're doing and say i can annex part of guyana. china says maybe we'll annex taiwan, this makes expansionist powers more aggressive? >> no, i am afraid that's absolutely true. this is really in a way the flip side of globalization. everybody is watching everybody all the time and looking for examples. of course, if the u.s. fails in ukraine, if the alliance falls apart, then other autocratic powers will say right, who is going to stop me, as you say?

who is going to stop venezuela from invading guyana. who is going to stop china from invading taiwan? okay, the u.s. can do some sanctions but they aren't really capable of holding together an alliance, of blocking even something as egregious as the russian invasion of ukraine, which has involved massive civilian casualties, targets -- cities are targeted, civilian hospitals and schools are targeted. and yet we are unable to stop it. i think if we give up now, there are lots of other authoritarians around the world who will learn that lesson. >> i'm wondering if one of the other lessons people are looking at around the world is democracy is not efficient and cannot necessarily sustain itself. my husband and i were in ghana and had folks saying you can't control your own capitol and you're telling the world how to be a democracy. we saw the u.n. process completely fail in the

israel/gaza situation. is the message that the rest of the world is getting is that the democracies are so dysfunctional that people are willing to give these other forms of government as horrific as they are, a shot? >> i mean, actually, it's our democracy that's the most dysfunctional, that looks the most dysfunctional from the outside right now. and yes, the u.s., you know, we're an unusual country in that there are people in britain who know more about the u.s. than they know about france. and people know more about u.s. politics than they know about their own next door neighbor's politics. and so people know our system. they follow it, and the dysfunction in the u.s. has an echo, as you say. people say, well, look, you're the best democracy in the world. you're supposed to be, the biggest democracy in the world, and your system doesn't work. so why should we expect it to work here? >> yeah. it is a troubling problem, but thank you. it's always great to talk with you. anne applebaum, thank you very much. coming up, justice clarence

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time and again, we have seen the current conservative majority supreme court undo decade of pres dependent to rule in favor of republican interests

on everything from abortion to affirmative action. but now, the court has a new opportunity to cater to the far right and directly help donald trump in one of his many criminal cases. yesterday, the justices agreed to hear a case that will consider whether the government can charge january 6th rioters with a statute that makes it a crime to obstruct an official proceeding. which could not only upend the prosecutions of hundreds of insurrectionists who have already been charged or sentences but could also potentially impact or delay special counsel jack smith's election interference case. as obstruction is one of the four counts brought against trump. a delay is exactly what smith was trying to avoid, when just days ago he asked the supreme court to fast track a review of trump's claim that he is immune for prosecutions of any kind, even for trying to forcibly stay in office because it happened while he was president. while it may seem like there would be a pretty obvious answer there, the people who could be deciding this are three trump appointed justices along with

clarence thomas and samuel alito. joining me is melissa murray, law professor at new york university, and msnbc legal analyst. melissa, how on earth could a case even make it to the supreme court that says that the government can't charge people who did insurrection with interfering with the processes of congress? >> well, joy, the case is called fisher v. united states. and this january 6th rioter was charged under the statute that was passed in the wake of the enron scandal, so one of the arguments that was made was that the statute was never intended to apply to a situation where someone was obstructing a congressional proceeding but rather was meant to deal with circumstances where individuals were doing things like evidence tampering in furtherance of the obstruction of official proceeding. so these don't necessarily match up. mr. fisher is already arguing he was never in the capitol for a long time and for that reason had no intent to actually obstruct the congressional

proceeding. it's really a question of statutory interpretation and whether the scope and substance of this statutory provision was meant to apply to this kind of conduct, the rioting at the capitol. >> how could that have possibly been applied to trump. at least if you read jack smith's filing, trump was directly trying to interfere with the processes of congress since the process was certifying the election of somebody other than him? >> that's right. if this court is inclined to rule for mr. fisher that this statute does not apply to him, that it was not intended to apply to him, then it raises questions about whether it should be applied to mr. trump. again, it is one of the four charges in the january 6th election interference indictment that jack smith has filed. and this really puts the supreme court and its conservative supermajority on their heels a bit because this is a court that has said that you have to look at the four corners of the statute, the words of the statute, the text of the statute. if you look at the text of the statute, a natural reading of it is it could apply in

circumstances where individuals were trying to obstruct any official proceeding, whether it was something with regard to the valuation of a company or a congressional proceeding like this one. it is only if you look to the purpose of the statute and look at its origins in the enron scandal that maybe things get a little shakier. this is a court of committed textualists so we'll see how committed they are. >> or a court of aileen cannons who are committed to doing whatever they want and whatever suits them in the moment, especially if it helps their guy. i think jack smith's filing was pretty brilliant. his strategy has been really brilliant to try to cut donald trump off from this delay, delay strategy. this is what public notice wrote. trump's lawyers insist the constitution's take care clause made trump an all purpose policeman, obliged to interfere with the certification of president biden's electoral victory. this is a particularly odd position because the 12th amendment to the constitution lays out specific roles for congress and the vice president in the electoral certification

but not for the president. so talk about this just for a moment because it is slightly unusual for the supreme court to skip the d.c. circuit, just jump before them. but it's not completely unusual, right? and is this a solid argument on the part of trump's lawyers that somehow interfering with the election is part of his job? >> so we're pivoting from the fisher case which is about the january 6th charges and now turning to trump's efforts to delay this trial altogether by arguing that he is immune from prosecution as a former president. what jack smith has done here is basically said, we can't wait for the intermediate appellate court to make a ruling. that would take too long. this country needs to know whether one of its candidates for president is a convicted felon or not. so it is without judgment, before judgment in this case, and it's asked the supreme court to not only do that, to take this case, but to do so with incredible expedition. the question that the court has

to address is whether the scope of presidential immunity, which has never been applied in the context of a criminal case because we have never had a former president or a sitting president be indicted on criminal charges, but whether or not the scope of presidential immunity goes so far as to insulate a president from criminal charges. and donald trump is arguing that his discouragement of the counting of the votes, of the certification of the votes in congress, that was merely part of his job as president, and therefore within the scope of that outer perimeter of his duties and tlefrb renders him immune. jack smith is arguing he wasn't even supposed to be there. that's a job for the vice president. this is not part of the president's official duties. he has no immunity here. >> quickly, based on dobbs should we just expect that the same five who overturned abortion rights will rule against mifepristone? should we brace ourselves for that? >> i think this is going to present a real challenge for this court because dobbs basically the court said this is an issue that should be decided

by the states, by the people. yet, we have a decision if the court rules in favor of the fifth circuit would make it very difficult for the abortion pill to be accessed around the country, even in those states where there are more liberal abortion policies. i also think it's important to note this case is like a ven diagram where it pits the antipathy for abortion with antipathy for the administrative state. so who knows if they'll be able to resist. >> also, samuel alito, he thinks he's doing god's work, his version of god's work. they're going to do what they want. melissa, murray, thank you very much. still ahead, israel's leaders rebuff increasingly urgent calls to pause or scale back their assault on gaza, choosing instead to lean into the conflict despite the massive humanitarian cost. we'll be right back.

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the suffering in gaza continues, with the country facing yet another phone and internet plaqueout as israeli bombing continues. it was so intense in khan younis that medics said not all of the wounded could be rescued. they're facing dropping temperatures and intense flooding as well as acute water and food shortages. >> people, this is also something completely new, people are stopping aid trucks, taking the food and eating it right away.

and this is how desperate and hungry they are. and i witnessed this first-hand. this is something which has to do with the total despair the people are expressing in the gaza strip. >> and amidst these conditions there are still 135 hostages in gaza. yesterday, the families of american hostages met with president biden. and my colleague jen psaki interviewed some of them today, including ronan and orna, whose 22-year-old son is currently being held by hamas. >> there's a lot of pressure on israel, and probably with good reason to supply humanitarian support to gaza. and to ease a little bit of the pain of the people there. where is the humanitarian support to our kids? who is visiting them? who is making sure they're fed? they're getting water, they're getting air?

who is giving them medicine if they need it? taking care of their wounds? >> we're talking still about 137 people, right? elderly people, still children in there, women, men. >> who need to have access. >> yes. where is the world on that? >> you can see more of jen psaki's interviews with american hostage familie this sunday on msnbc. today israel's defense minister said the war will last more than a few months, with prime minister netanyahu dismissing international pressure for a cease-fire saying, quote, nothing will stop us. nbc news reports the biden administration has told the israeli government that it wants israel to end its large scale ground campaign in gaza and transition to a more targeted phase of its war against hamas. according to two u.s. officials familiar with the discussions. there is also a major divide emerging over what peace even looks like. something that was highlighted by an israeli diplomat's

comments on the future of the two-state solution this week. and that is up next. and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com

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cease-fire increase, there is a looming question of what exactly happens after this war eventually ends. in a shocking interview, israel's ambassador to the united kingdom set a two state solution is not an option, something the united states has been promoting for years. >> is there still a chance for

a two-state solution? >> it's about time for the world to realize that that failed on the seventh october and we need to build a new one. to build a new -- ones >> does that new one include the palestinians living in the state of the round. ? >> the biggest question, is what type of palestinians. that's what israel realizes. the answer is absolutely no, and i will tell you why. israel knows, today, and the world should know now, the reason the oslo accord feels is because the palestinians didn't want to have a state near israel. they wanted to have a state from the river to the. c >> two conditions. >> why are you obsessed with a formula that never worked? >> joining me is daniel levy, former israeli peace negotiator and president of the middle east process project. i think it's very clear to anyone who's been observing benjamin netanyahu, held up that picture, a greater haaretz picture in the u.n. this old no

palestine, just israel. he is against a two state solution. how big of a deal is it for that to seem to be the official policy now of the government of israel? >> it is the official policy. it doesn't date back. as you know to the interview of the ambassador, where i am, in the united kingdom. that is the official policy of the israeli government. no israeli government has ever endorsed two states, as ever endorsed the 1960 47 lines. so it's refreshing, perhaps, not so much that the ambassador said this that the world is paying attention. i will read you the guidelines of israel's governing coalition. the jewish people have an exclusive right to all parts of the land of israel and to settlement in all parts, including judea and samaria. what we have here is that the official position of benjamin netanyahu's government is from the river to the sea, only jews can be free. i know people have heard other

chant, but that's the official position of the israeli government. and i know that president biden recently mentioned the name of one of the ministers, ben-gvir. but it's too easy to hide behind one extremist minister. this is the position of the entire government. by the way, it was netanyahu who brought these extremists, ben-gvir and smotrich together at his home to form a united party, to enable them to get into the parliament, until later join his core coalition. i think the follow-up question, one sentence, the follow-up question, which that interview didn't ask which everyone, every interviewer should ask, when they are talking to a member of this government is, if that is your official position, then what is your answer for giving equality and rights to all the people who live in this one state, or do you run an apartheid state? which is the reality? >> that would be the question. for those not familiar with terminology, netanyahu offers today and some area, that's the

west bank, they were refer to it, judy and some area, biblical terms. to clarify for those who do not know who ben-gvir is, can you tell us who he is? >> ben-gvir, you write to ask me to clarify that. he is currently the minister of national security. essentially is a glorified minister of police. a senior position. a war cabinet position. he has been prosecuted in the past for hate crimes, for racism, for violence. if people remember, there is an israeli prime minister, it's acrobats, acylated. he was one of the leaders of the incitement, in the early days of oslo. but we shouldn't focus on him, we should focus on the entirety of the government, which has endorsed that position. >> and by the way i should note that one of the slogans of the likud party, which this ambassador and bibi now belong to is from the river to the sea, that is one of their slogans. let me ask you the same

question you asked, which is a natural follow-up question. that's what i thought. if the answer is not to give palestinians their own state, and palestine already is represented in the u.n., the u.n. recognizes they have the state, if that's not the answer, to be the only other options are expulsion, mass expulsion of palestinians. kick them out of the land. kick them all out. or apartheid. because i don't see what other living on some reservations i don't understand what the other option is. >> right. this is the indigenous people being driven into reservations. but the land here is very small. i don't want to continue to draw an analogy with anywhere where there was enough land to drive the indigenous people into reservations. but you're absolutely right. the debate inside israel increasingly today is between those who are calling for ethnic cleansing. that's the call we have heard

prior to october 7th but increasingly during this war we have heard senior ministers calling for the mass displacement of palestinians. they call it a second not far, because the majority of community in the foundation of israel were driven from their land. when people look at gaza, why do so many people live in refugee camps? it's because they were expelled from their homes inside israel. so it's a calls for ethnic cleansing, or it's the continuation of living under a regime that has been legally designated, not just by palestinians, by israeli human rights organizations, by amnesty and human rights watch, as a regime that meets the legal definition of apartheid. the alternative is to give everyone equal rights or have a genuine drc patient and sovereign palestinian state. and then you have to address the question of palestinian refugees and those living inside israel who are facing structural demonstration. >> a lot of violence on the

west bank, i will mention. there's been a lot of issues in the west bank as well. let me ask you about the biden bibi relationship. it seems that admitting this out loud, even though, again, you can't really criticize his position, it isn't a a -- to biden, and i thought it was a thing inside of israeli government, a truism, that you never distance from the americans. you never kick the americans in the face. the americans are the best friend and our supplier of arms and supplier of aid. >> this is the thing. prime minister netanyahu, over 20 years ago, during a brief pause in when he wasn't in office, made a comment that america is an easy thing to lead. and i fear that that is exactly how he feels today with the biden administration. we've seen the visit now of jake sullivan in the region, which seemed a recent comments of president biden. but i don't want dismissed them

entirely. but they still feel entirely inadequate to the moment at hand. they're saying to the israelis, kill less civilians. that's not gonna bring back to more than seven and a half thousand children, 70,000 civilians killed already. of course the 1200 israelis from october 7th will never come back. but those statements are unfortunately i don't think you're going to change the way israel is conducting this war. as long as the war goes on, the humanitarian catastrophe created by israel, and it's horrendous, cannot be treated. and so the missing words are, if you don't do this, then we will stop supplying weapons and we will oversee those weapons we've already supplied. >> the other option of course, the ottoman emma empire had jews, christians and muslims are living in peace. it can be done. me daniel levy, thank you very much. and that is tonight reidout's. all in with chris hayes darts right now. s.