pakistan has its own politics, so do we. i think the core argument is that either this refugee challenge is managed, is regulated, is legal, is orderly, or, it isn't managed, disorderly, and grips us all. that is the fundamental find. >> right. it is like gravity, which is that people are going to move, and they are going to seek places where they can live. -- >> remember, people want to stay at home. >> the vast majority. do >> they do not want to leave their country, they got their language, their root, their commitments. what is really tragic is that the countries that are most vulnerable to climate change have contributed, we have calculated, 16 countries, 2% of global emissions have come from those countries, they have the bad luck to be suffering. we gotta tackle it. if we do not tackle it, it's not going to sandals. countries >> it's always a great pleasure to have you. thank you very much. come back. that is all in for this thursday night. alex wagner tonight starts

right now. good evening,. alex alex >> thank you my friend for essential conversation with a very important voice. thank to you at home for joining us this hour. it is a three bedroom, three bathroom apartment with a living room, dining room, a dining room that allegedly secrets 40 people, i don't know about that, but a library, a gallery, a dining out cove, butlers pantry, a staff room, a kitchen and laundry and unit. it is on the upper east side of manhattan on the corner of madison and 66 street. it is one block from central park. it is currently on the market with an asking price of six point $1 million. this luxury slice of real estate is owned currently by former new york city mayor, rudy giuliani. that property, or the money from that property to be more specific may soon be in the

hands of former fulton county election workers -- and sheamus. you likely remember ruby freeman and shaye moss for their incredibly emotional testimony before the house january 6th committee, that is when they described how a conspiracy theory about them somehow altering votes in the 2020 election and amplified by giuliani and fed to trump who amplified it even more. they described how that conspiracy theory turned the wrath of trump supporters against the two women and ruined their lives. today, the jury and -- civil defamation case against rudy giuliani, that journey started deliberating. in august, the judge overseeing the case awarded a default judgment to freeman and moss on the actual issue of defamation. so, that's part has already been decided. giuliani did defame ruby freeman and shaye moss. what the jury has to decide in the coming days is how much

money rudy giuliani should have to pay these two women for that defamation. today, in his closing statement, freeman and moss's attorney asked the jurors to award the woman $24 million each. that is just in damages for their injuries. their attorneys also asking the jury to award punitive damages of whatever they think is appropriate in order to send a message to rudy giuliani. in this trial, we've gotten even more detail about the threats friedman and moss face, because of giuliani's conspiracy. we heard a voice mail left on rudy friedman's answering machine threatening to burn her store down. people left messages saying she should be lynched, and describe how they fantasize about hearing the sound of her next snap, and they found her and intimidated her in her home. shea moss was so afraid of trump's rob supporters out in

late 2020, to change your hairstyle from this, to this. so that strangers wouldn't recognize her in public. it has since changed again if you are wondering. ruby freeman started going by fake names and wearing a mask and sunglasses in public. rudy giuliani's conspiracy theory about miss ruby freeman and miss moss altering votes in 2020 has been debunked over and over again. the damage that conspiracy theory has done is a matter of public record at this point. yet, here is mr. giuliani on monday outside of court for his defamation trial, potentially defaming the same to women again. >> whatever happened to them, which is unfortunate for other people overreacting. everything i said about them is true. >> do you regret what you did too ruby freeman?

>> of course i got regret it. i told the truth. they were engaged and changing votes. there is no proof of that. you are right there. is stay tuned. >> stay tuned. for a week now, rudy giuliani has been hyping that he would reveal some big truths that would exonerate him and show that miss ruby freeman and miss shaye moss did also the result of the 2020 election. he's been saying that that truth would come when he took the stand himself in this defamation case. today, on the final day of this trial, rudy giuliani did not take the stand. maybe do not be to shock that when it came time to present evidence, rudy giuliani came up once again empty-handed. maybe do not be too shocked about that. i do not just play that video ruby potentially defaming ruby freeman and shaye moss again on monday because it's almost comical how much the man over promises and not delivers. it seems here that giuliani continuing to lie about ruby

freeman and shaye moss matters. rudy giuliani is already claiming he is broke as broken be. last year, here really got thrown in jail after his ex-wife alleged he had not been paying his divorce settlement. last month, the accounting firm that giuliani used to value it adds its for that divorce settlement, that accounting firm also sued rudy giuliani, alleging he did not pay his bills. giuliani was even sued this year by one of his own former lawyers for allegedly not pink his own lawyers bills either. so, rudy giuliani claims he is real broke, and this defamation suit can cause him tens of millions more, unless he is hiding a few more luxury near city apartments he can sell, this is all likely to hurt him financially, a lot. despite these financial straits, giuliani is choosing to continue to open himself up to more potential defamation suits with statements like the ones

he made on monday. beyond the civil liability here, giuliani is making the decision to continue to greatly antagonized to women who could potentially be witnesses in jack smith's federal criminal election interference case against donald trump, in which, by the way, rudy giuliani's unindicted coconspirator number one. he is a lawyer, yes, but maybe not so much a legal scholar. joining me now is andrew weizmann, who served as fbi general counsel and is a senior -- robert mueller's investigative team who is on the co-host of indispensable podcast, prosecuting donald trump. they have now written the world indispensable into the intro buckles that's how firmly i believe in the essential news of your podcast. andrew, number one, in terms of julie -- rudy giuliani here, how likely is it that ruby freeman and are called as witnesses in jack smith's federal case should not go to trial? >> highly likely. >> highly likely, right? >> yes. they are witness is highly

likely in the federal case as well as in the georgia state case. in fact, in the georgia state case there are charges that are all about the harassment in what happened to them. but, that's also true in the federal case. there is good reason, it helped prove the case. it's also helps make the case a little less abstract. i think it is because as serious as that case is, it is an attempt of a conspiracy case. but, with ruby freeman and shaye moss, it's happened. the evidence we're going to hear anything about that case and the council police, this is not abstract. this is not something they tried and it did not go anywhere. there are people who suffered. one thing i just wanted to note in their intro about rudy giuliani, is the reason he is in the position he is in now in court, of course he -- did this, is that he did not

participate in the discovery process over and over again. this is a civil case, the judges should order about both sides needing to give discovery back and forth, and he basically said, sia, not doing it. he repeatedly did not do that. so, it's clear that the judge was saying that you are hiding something. i do not know what it is, i don't know if it's because of your other civil problems, i don't know if it's criminal problems. but, if you keep on being contemptuous, this is what is going to happen. she had to keep on taking steps of financial penalties. that's why there was a default judgment. he was not allowed to actually say to the jury, i cannot afford to pay x y and z. why? because he refused to turn over any documents on his financial condition. so, it is really important to remember that this is somebody who is the former mayor, the former head of the southern -- u.s. attorney's office, a senior member of the department of justice, and, it is an emblem of what this country has

become or at least a part of what this country has become. >> absolutely. what accolades of donald trump have become, no matter what their backgrounds are in terms of justice. i do wonder, there is a financial implication for rudy, if there is a bad outcome in this civil case, the lawyers are asking for 24 million a plus plus. but, what are the implications as this case kind of foreshadows the jack smith federal case? how closely do you think the feds are going to be looking at the outcome here in terms of the jury pool and also public opinion and then in terms of the criminal aspect of it all? >> well, i do not think it's terribly connected and we could expect a result of $10 million or 15 million, who knows. but, i think the issue is not just sort of damages that these plaintiffs clearly deserved, because they have been harmed.

punitive damages with respect to rudy giuliani. but, the message is not just to rudy giuliani. it is a little bit like a dominion case which is that the message is to enablers of donald trump that if you engage in this conduct, this is what can happen. it is, that does not involve jail time. it is a question of there being some legal accountability and deterrence for engaging in this kind of activity. in terms of the criminal case, if i were jack smith or on his team, i would be looking to see how the ruby freeman and shaye moss do on the stand? you have some sense of that from their congressional testimony which you played. they, by all accounts, were victimized. that is something that i think, like any juror, like we are reacting to it saying that this

is just completely senseless and it is like what mr. sperling said in the georgia case which is that this is the violence that is going to happen if donald trump and his enablers continue engaging in this kind of conduct. >> the jury that is going to be deciding on all of this is basically the washington, d.c.. there is a lot of sort of concern on the part of trump about who is going to sit on the jury, if he has this federal case unfold in the beginning of march. if the jury's very sympathetic to the case of miss friedman and moss, does that not go well for jack smith who's going to have to pull people from the same selection of individuals? >> i do think that prosecutors and -- are looking at the venue and they sort of worry about it the way the jacks mitt may be worried about a florida jury. again, it only takes one in a criminal case to be a hung jury. but, i do think that jurors by and large must --

and i keep on telling the story of the one juror who spoke in the manafort trial which was in the eastern district of virginia which is a mix district in terms of -- and, she said she was a maga republican and said she literally left her maga hat in the car, and that is just a great image for the -- of principle, in the same way that millions of americans to, and jurors do every day, and judges, and prosecutors, and journalist, every ordinary citizen do. i think that there is no reason to think and. you have this sort of racist view that i think donald trump and some of his allies have but because of the makeup of the d.c. jury pool that they are not going to have the same ability to be completely neutral and fair and impartial.

>> arbiters of justice. we spent some time in the intro to the segment talking about rudy giuliani's financial states, which are considerable. basically, everybody he's been involved in a professional capacity over the last year is suing him, including his ex-wife who is not involved with the professional capacity. if you are jacks mitt, people who are under pressure, they're usually good candidates have to be -- using as a question in jack smith's -- rudy giuliani is an unindicted coconspirator, he knows what about what trump was doing and thinking around january 6th. but, fani willis is already taken that option off the table. giuliani is going to get prosecuted, and may go to jail. you think jack smith ever twice with the idea? do you think it's an option the federal case? >> not at this point. you know, you played the clip of, on monday, rudy giuliani announcing -- >> stay tuned! >> stay tuned, i've got evidence, i stand by what i

said which there is no evidence of that. it is really impossible to put that person on the stand. there are certain witnesses, but i've been a situation as a prosecutor where you're like, you know, what this person would have to be so cooperated on every single thing they said that it is not worth it. i'd rather just used a cooperation, i do not need the baggage that rudy giuliani, and also remember that if you allow so much cooperate, it's a trade-off because, yes they are convicted, yes they adamant what they did, but, they are going to get credit with the judge in terms of the sentence they get. so, do you really want to be doing that with somebody who had every advantage that can be afforded to somebody in this world, and squander it in this way? >> as you point out, so rightly,

knew better, just knew better. had all the learning, had all the information and do what you did allegedly, anyways. andrew weissman, thank you for being here. >> nice to be here. >> we have a lot more ahead, including the potential conflicts of interest held by one supreme court justice, and what that means for the question of the accountability. first, president biden is turning his position on israel's war publicly, and especially privately. we will have more details on all of that, coming up, next. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ...thanks to dupixent. dupixent is not for sudden breathing problems. it's an add-on treatment for specific types of moderate-to-severe asthma. and can help improve lung function for better breathing in as little as two weeks. dupixent helps prevent asthma attacks... and can even reduce or eliminate oral steroids. imagine that.

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official since the start of the israel-hamas war, life inside gaza has become a living -- gaza health officials say more than 18,000, 700 palestinians

have been killed, 70% of them women and children. shelters have been flooded by winter rains, people have resorted to drinking contaminated water, eight agencies described children and families roaming the streets unable to find food and with nowhere to go. after nearly ten weeks of fighting, the sheer scale of death and suffering in gaza has finally begun shifting the american approach to israel and its offensive. this was president biden speaking to reporters today. >> i want them to be focused on how to save civilian lives, not stopped going after hamas but be more careful. >> privately, biden is reportedly more pointed on tuesday the president told supporters at a closed-door fund-raiser that the indiscriminate bombing in gaza was beginning to cost israel supports around the world. today, nbc reports at the white house has told israeli government it wants israel to end its large scale ground camp on gaza and transition to a

more targeted phase of its war against hamas. joining me now is my and this nbc colleague, mehdi hasan. that, he thank you for being here. first, i wonder what you make of this sort of strike discrepancy but a meaningful one nonetheless between what biden is saying publicly and what he's saying privately, and whether the reasoning behind that and the shift in general what you make of it. >> it's a great question. i don't think anybody quite knows it's going on. i suspect a lot of people around biden are going on, because he's been front and center when it comes to the strategy on israel. it's -- not something he's outsource from the beginning of the conflict, he was scribbling his own notes into speeches, he was saying his own things. we know he has a propensity sometimes to gaffe. but, what he said at the fund-raiser a couple of days ago is fascinating because on the one hand, he says israel's losing support internationally because it's killing civilians. he says they're doing indiscriminate bombing which,

by the way, it's an admission from the u.s. president of israel is committing war crime. the indiscriminate bombing is on the international humanitarian law. it's a big thing for the president to say. but, on those same reports, alex, he said at the end of the day we are going to protect israel, that is what we are going to do. no matter what else happens. so, there is this real disconnect, not just between the viewpoint what he's saying publicly and privately, but between his words and his actions, because it does not matter how critically he gets of israel, ultimately, they are getting the weapons they need from us. the weekend he bypassed congress to expedite the sale of tank shells, almost i believe 14,000 tank shells. when donald trump did that during the yemen war to saudi arabia and bypassed congress, democrats were open arms. this time around i hope you can see more people saying hold on, let's have congress scrutinize this -- let's have to sit for scrutinize whether american weapons are being used in alleged war crimes, because that against american laws. >> well, when you talk about this sort of ongoing campaign

in gaza for a lack of a better term, the war crimes potentially, i wonder, i do wonder if you can make sense of the fact that biden is saying publicly that the white house is saying we want this all to end in three weeks at the end of the war. then, defense ministry you have gallant, the israeli defense minister, this is before we laid out that timeline and -- he said the war against hamas would last more than several months. it feels as if there is a sort of, if my direct tit-for-tat of back and forth here that is not indicative of is your butt is necessarily listening to america's prescriptions, do you think that is just sort of is you'll paving its own path, or do you think there is some actual currency to be gained and going up against democratic president who's up for election in 2024? >> very much so. benjamin netanyahu features in trouble. he's deeply unpopular in israel

because of the massive security and intelligence failure on his watch. this is the guy who can say to his hard right constituency, and the guy who standing up to biden, and the guy who's preventing the two-state solution, which the israeli government is. so, he can do that for domestic consumption. yoav gallant can say we need more months to defeat tomas, which they have not done yet, they've killed a lot of innocent people in the process. the problem becomes, is u.s. government willing to do anything about in the game of chicken with benjamin netanyahu, is joe biden keeps telling -- the fund-raiser, i disagree with bibi but i love the man. he keeps thing i love the guy. this guy could cost your president, mister president. the question is, what are you going to do about it, because people -- israel will do its own thing. let's be real, alex, the american president, joe biden could end this war which as you pointed out has killed 18,000 people, more than 7000 kids. he could and that were with a single phone call. we know this because he's ana before in 2021, when is your

was bombing gaza last summer on may 2021, according to -- and his biography of biden. the president and netanyahu said there are a runway, we got to end this, and he did. ronald reagan in 1992 famously said i'm watching the holocaust from my screen, we've got to stop this. in 20 minutes, this really stopped bomb in beirut and reagan said i didn't realize i had the power. so, americans do have this power. american government has power. the question is, is it willing to use it? >> it's a good question to ask, especially because there are some reporting out there that netanyahu and his conservative allies in israel would much rather see a trump presidency. i mean, not only are potentially americans and israel's -- moral and ethical country in the around gaza and the death toll there, there is just the sheer basic political reality that it might be hoot netanyahu and his goal to not have joe biden in the white house, do you think it's an in the white house recognizes? it does not seem like, it seems like a feature, not debug?

>> i suspect at the white house in terms of the political operation does recognize. the question is, does joe biden? biden has decades long friendship with bibi. he says he loves the guy, killing him for 50 years. the problem is netanyahu gets along with republican presidents like donald trump. democrat presidents have never gotten along with netanyahu. bill clinton said, who is the superpower here? obama got insulted and humiliated by netanyahu about iran? now you have biden who could lose the presidential election because of this war, and meanwhile, netanyahu is like, i would either way because i get trump back in a blank check according to this reporting this week. >> i do wonder, that he, if you think anybody has an idea about how this will end. when you hear about what is going on in terms of how israel is thinking about this, not only the timeline but the suggestion that they have no interest in a two state solution and the reality that there is some research out there that palestinians are not in full support of hamas, their

overall support for hamas has gone up since october 7th. that suggests of hamas is not going anywhere. >> sadly, the greatest recruiting sergeant for hamas has been benjamin netanyahu in this war in gaza. just as the greatest recruit from -- al-qaeda after joe 11, -- repeating history in off way. joe biden gets, and he said recently. let's not repeat the mistakes you made of tonight 11. he re-sports it. but, i wish we optimize words. >> many hassan, thank you for being here, my friend. thank you for your time tonight. i appreciated. >> thank. you >> much more ahead tonight, including more pregnant women suing red states to have an abortion. the first every single lawyer prosecuting the case against donald trump says, they are after one thing and one thing only. they are going to tell you what that think is and who might sound in their way, coming up, next. each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe.

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have to be held accountable. >> since the attack on our capital, the department of justice has remained committed to ensuring accountability for those criminally responsible for what's happened that day. this case is broad consistent with that commitment. >> accountability. accountability. that is what every prosecutor who has charge donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election says they are seeking. accountability. right now, their pursuit of

accountability increasingly depends on the nine justices of the supreme court. just yesterday, the court agreed to hear an appeal brought by a man charged with obstructing an official proceeding on january 6th. that is the very same proceeding jack smith charged donald trump with obstructing. certification of president biden's win. the supreme court's decision to weigh in here could impact trump's own d.c. trial on whether it's happens upon schedule. also before the supreme court right now is trump's arguments that presidential immunity shields him from the prosecution in the special counsel's case. taking up that case the supreme court will also consider trump's arguments that the constitution's double jeopardy clause shields him from prosecution as well since congress already impeach trump for trying to overturn the 2020 election. mr. trump has thrown a lot the spaghetti at the walls here in pursuit of a state of stand jail free card and on the nine justices of the supreme court

will be the arbiters of which arguments actually stick. so, their opinions matter. as always. but, especially their opinions as it pertains to what happened on january 6th. one of those justices has a wife who pressed lawmakers in swing states to overturn the 2020 election results, who cheered on trump supporters the morning of january 6th before things turned into a full scale assault, writing on facebook, love micah people and a wife who exchanged at least 29 text messages with former white house chief of staff mark meadows, urging him to help overturn the 2020 election. the author of those texts was ginni thomas, wife of justice clarence thomas. ginni thomas has swarmed of her right-wing activism does not influence her husband's work. when she was called before the january six committee last year, she told them, it is laughable for anybody who knows my

husband to think i can influence his -- the man is independent and stubborn with strong character traits of independence and integrity. this is a couple that reportedly shares a brain. in a 2011 speech, justice thomas himself said that his wife, we are equally yoked and we love being with each other because we love the same things. we believe in the same things. so, this week, senate judiciary chair dick durbin, and other democrats, have begun calling for justice clarence thomas to recruit himself from trump's january 6th case. senator durbin told the senator there is unanswered questions about the relationship of the justice and his family from the trump administration but i think in the interest of justice, thomas should recuse himself. now, whether justice thomas keeps these calls is very much an open question. justice thomas has only recused

himself from one january 6th case, that is when the supreme court rejected a petition from john eastman, who happens to be both thomas's former law clerk and one of trump's codefendants in georgia. other than that, thomas has not felt the need to step away from any think related to january 6th, whether he decides of having a wife who is not simply a believer but a proponent of the big lie is sufficient enough conflict to step aside here. that will have meaningful impact on whether there is accountability or not. coming up, more pregnant women are talking about why they need abortions and republicans would very much like to hit the nuclear button. more on that, after this. onth cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. now when i have people over, hiv pills aren't on my mind.

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overturned roe v. wade women have been coming forward with harrowing stories about difficult pregnancies that have put their lives at risk. in the past week, we learned about a woman in kentucky who is now suing the state for access to an abortion. jane doe is approximately eight weeks pregnant and wants determinate but cannot because of the states near total abortion ban. we don't know much about her pregnancy, but her attorney says that her embryo no longer has cardiac activity. dull has filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of herself and any other person who is

pregnant or could become pregnant in the state of kentucky. that lawsuit was filed a few days before texas's supreme court ruled that another woman, kate cox, who sued to terminate a non viable and life-threatening pregnancy, did not qualify for a medical exception to the states extreme abortion ban. these stories are clearly shifting conservative narrative about who seeks abortions and why. so it is not exactly a surprise that republicans do not want to have anything to do with it. >> are you supportive of the texas cream courts ruling indicate clocks case that prevented her from getting an abortion after she learned her fetus was not viable? >> just call the press office. >> i have for two days now and i haven't received an answer. >> thank you. >> joining me now is jessica valenti, author and writer of the abortion every day newsletter. jessica, thank you for being here, initially when i was told that there was a soundbite of ted cruz refusing to answer the

question i thought it was the one from earlier in the week but in all this is still the guy's position days later, after he has had maybe time to think about how he would answer this question. to me it's so indicative of either a right-wing that never considered that women who want to be mothers would have to deal with abortions or they just didn't think women would come forward with deeply personal stories. i wonder how you assess this current position that you see the conservatives in. >> it is really interesting. they've had 50 years to prepare for this moment. they knew these were going to be the consequences of their laws, and yet when faced with the actual consequences they are literally running, literally running from facing questions. and i think most importantly from facing these women behind these stories. there is a reason that republicans right now are talking so much about democratic extremists, about

the abortion industry they don't want to own up to the fact that they their political enemy right now is individual women. individual women and their families. it's not a good look. >> and also just from the political strategy standpoint, putting forth an abstract idea against a deeply visceral personal emotional story from an individual that could be your own neighbor or mother or sister, you know which one trumps in the end in the court of public opinion. i want to ask you because it's not just access to abortions, it's that states like texas are trying to restrict interstate travel which in many cases like the case of kate cox, the last option they have to terminate an unwanted pregnancy or a pregnancy they wanted, that they cannot go through with because it poses a risk to their own lives. in ireland, i think it was sophia -- died of sepsis because she

couldn't permeate at pregnancy that was not viable. that changed irish opinion and effectively overturned one of the strictest abortion bans in the eu. i wonder how you think these individual stories, about the ones that kate cox and jane doe and the ones that inevitably are forthcoming when there are women who cannot leave the state are going to change our national dynamic over this issue. >> i think they already are. i really think that they already are. and that is why you see republicans running from them. i don't think the wind behind these stories, the women who aren't able to come forward, it takes a certain amount of privilege to be able to share your story with the world and be open to harassment and all sorts of things. these women are not going to let them ignore them. i spoke a couple of months ago to a young woman, a 21-year-old in texas whose fetus had developed not at all above the neck, it had developed without a head, and she was still denied an abortion.

she had to travel to new mexico, was too afraid to tell any of her friends, her family, and what she said to me, i get emotional thinking about it, i just want ken paxton to look me in the eye, 21 years old, i just want ken paxson to look me in the eye and tell me why i had to go through this. they're not going to let these people forget. >> yeah, the suffering that effectively these republican men are putting women through is so piercing and so deeply felt i think by people who are across the country, which is why, jessica, in florida, there's a push to get an abortion ballot amendment in the state of florida. it has, according to the florida abortion rights group that is organizing this effort, 150,000 republicans have signed a petition. i have got to imagine that the more you hear these stories, and they are not stopping anytime soon. in all likelihood they're likely to get more horrific and

more getting as time goes on. the more you're going to have republicans stand up and say what we did here is wrong. the question is at what point ted cruz or john cornyn or any other republicans who just say press microsoft's will actually acknowledge it. i wonder, is it this year, is it next year, is it next month? to have a thought on how quickly this is all changing? >> i think they're gonna continue to ignore it as long as they can. you're talking about florida. over half of republicans polled in florida said they would vote for that ballot measure tomorrow. and that is why they are trying to keep ballot measures away from voters. they don't want them to get to voters because they know once that goes to voters they have lost. and so i think what is becoming clearer and clearer is that they don't care what voters want. even if the republican voters. >> it shouldn't surprise me that their desire to fall on their swords at the cost of women's lives, peoples lives

across the country, just in the name of political championship, is a really staggering thing. jessica volente, the indispensable newsletter that we all read with great regular tear regularity, abortion every day, thank you so much for your time today. coming up, hunter biden is punching back. and we're going to discuss that with one of the architects of that new strategy, congressman eric swalwell. that's next. eric swalwell. that's next. that's next. >> shingles. some describe it as pulsing electric shocks or sharp, stabbing pains. ♪♪

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that the house committees illegitimate investigations of my family do not proceed on distortions, manipulated evidence, and lies. i'm also here today to correct how the maga wright has portrayed me for their political purposes. there is no fairness or decency in what these republicans are doing. >> hunter biden told axios today that he feels it's one of his responsibilities to now defend his father and to call out republican lies as loud and as often as possible. which is why he made those remarks just outside the capitol yesterday. and he did so with the support of california congressman eric swalwell, who reserve the spot so that hunter biden could speak to the press. joining me now is congressman eric swalwell, democratic california. he's also a member of the judiciary committee and served as house manager during the second impeachment of donald

trump. congressman swalwell, thank you for being here. to the extent that you are able to, could you help us understand a little bit of the deliberations that led to that moment yesterday outside the capital. was there any reluctance on the part of mr. biden to speak to the public on an issue so fraught for his family? >> he's eager to tell his story publicly. and in fact he was asked by chairman comer, the republican chairman, to testify publicly, multiple times, comer said you could do it privately or publicly. and to recognize that they were distorting the private testimony that was taking place and the republicans would rather have the mystery and the speculation of a closed-door hearing than the truth come out and come to light in a public hearing. and so yesterday was hunter saying and raising his hands and saying i'm here. i'm not perfect. i made mistakes in the past.

what you think happened never happened. and he wanted to bring that to light publicly. >> do you think this is going to be an ongoing strategy? where are we gonna hear more from hunter biden because republicans are not letting this go anytime soon. does that mean hunter biden is going to be in front of a microphone for the next few months? >> i hope his story is told because the republicans have nothing. in fact, what you will see the more you learn, is that hunter biden, like millions of americans, was an addictive person who made mistakes in his personal life, had a father and a mother who loved him very much and helped him, and he has been clean for many years. but what is sick and perverse about this and i say that is somebody who has a loved one that i have helped fight addiction, is that republicans would weaponize his addiction because they have never accepted his father as a legitimate president of united states. and so it's time to play on the republican side of the field and say if you want to talk about this, let's have a public hearing and talk about this. but that's not what they want,

because they have nothing. and so they will continue, whether it was through a violent insurrection to overturn the election or now through this impeachment inquiry or through the speculation around this president sign. we'll use every weapon in government to try and throw out joe biden, because they have never accepted he is a lawful president of our country. >> there is some reporting i think in axios that there's tension around this strategy of addressing the issue head on and publicly and talking about it personally and publicly risks giving more oxygen to a fantasy that republicans concocted that somehow president biden is implicated in all of this and has committed impeachable offenses. do you think is any merit to that wisdom to talk about it gives more oxygen? >> now. zero. i see a good and decent man in joe biden who united the country and all the evidence has shown that he loved his son. his son was on hard times and he bought his son a track in his son paid him back.

he loaned his brother money and his brother paid him back. joe biden is just a decent american who fought maga-ism and is seeing this used against him. in this sick and perverse. way we also should just contrast by the way that while joe biden was helping his addicted son, donald trump, in the white house, with his daughter, ivanka, who was getting patents granted to her from the chinese are trademarks granted to her from the chinese while he was president and his son, son-in-law jared kushner, was striking deals over in the gulf worth billions of dollars while donald trump is having people stay at his hotel just a block away from the white house and mickey money himself. so is just absurd that we would do anything but lean in on this and show one good decent man and one very corrupt twice impeached 91 felony count charge individual. i'll take that contrast any day. >> i wonder if you could talk

about that in the broader context of how republicans deal with democrats. there's one strategy embraced by gavin newsome of california which is effectively sort of using my own colloquial language, punch them in the face, go to where they are, go to fox news, talk to ron desantis, carry out the billboards, don't be afraid to take them on in the arena. and then there's kind of strategy that has been embraced in previous years, again i'm paraphrasing a little bit, but when they go into the mock, we rise above, when they go low we go high. i wonder if you think those two are compatible in this day and age where the democrats need to choose between one or the other. >> i think we have a story to tell and we can't be too modest in telling it. we don't have to lie or make things up about them. what they want to do to a woman and her right to make her own health care decisions, to your kids right to read what they want to eat in the classroom or to your children in the right

to go home safely after school and not be killed by gun violence. we have a story to tell, but we're too modest sometimes and we stand on this false virtue sometimes is democrats. what i am proposing is that too much is at stake in the upcoming election to let them beat up on the presidents formally addicted son and not let him tell the story about how decent a father he had to help save him from that addiction. >> so the suggestion here is democrat democrats reclaim the narrative and say it loud, i suppose. congressman eric swalwell. >> don't hide under the bed. that's the rule. >> what's that? >> don't hide under the bed. >> don't hide under the bed. you heard it there. congressman eric swalwell, thank you for your time tonight sir i appreciate it. >> that is our show for tonight, now it is time for the last word with ali velshi, who is in for lawrence. good evening, ali. o is i >> good evening, alex. we'll see you tomorrow. thank you. and today was a bad day for