point where president putin says he wants to run for election. that has nothing to do with the kremlin. it's just the legal process here in russia, andrea. >> keir simmons in moscow, thanks so much for being there. that does it for this week. follow the show on social media @mitchellreports, "chris jansing reports" starts right now. good day, i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. israel says the punishing war with hamas isn't anywhere close to being over. after dropping nearly 30,000 bombs on gaza in less than two months, officials say they still have many months to go. today, though, under intense pressure, israel is opening its own border for the first time to let aid in, but is it enough to make a real difference as civilians endure life-threatening suffering. plus, mark meadows doing

everything he can do to get as far away from fani willis and fulton county as he can. the latest on his bid to move rico charges to federal court and maybe get them tossed out altogether. and new political drama in a district that's already had more than its fair share after new york republicans pick a candidate to run for george santos' old seat. public records show the gop candidate is actually a registered democrat and has been for 11 years. so what the heck is going on. lots to get to, but we begin this hour with a critical breakthrough to allow more aid inside gaza at a time when everything is running out. a u.s. official says israel has agreed to open its border crossing at kerem shalom in the next couple of days. this was a key priority for the u.s. during national security adviser jake sullivan's trip to israel, and it marks a significant shift in policy for the israeli government, which has blocked aid from getting

into gaza from its territory since the horrific october 7th attack, and it couldn't come at a more crucial time with the humanitarian crisis getting worse by the minute. one gazan describes the horrors and pains of this war to our nbc news team. quote, we are dying slowly. we are dying a thousand times every day. we have begun to wish for death. we say it would be better to die and not live such a life. it's a humiliating life. but prime minister benjamin netanyahu and the israeli government have made it clear that the high intensity war with hamas will continue for several more months. that's despite national security adviser jake sullivan amping up the pressure on israel to transition to a more targeted phase of the war to try to save civilian lives in gaza, while also noting the challenge they face. >> they need to operate in a way against a foe that is entrenched among the civilian population using citizens as human shields,

and somehow israel has to navigate that to destroy that terrorist threat. that is an unbelievable burden. >> nbc's hala gorani reports from tel aviv once again for us. hala, how will opening this border crossing impact the amount of aid getting into gaza, at least ttheoretically, and wht could it mean for the p there? >> reporter: so, chris, you mentioned the latn of this kerem shalom crossing. it's pretty much at the intersection, if you look at the map of egypt, israel, and gaza. it was opened a few days ago for inspection, so allowing for more trucks to be screened before they would have to drive back into egyptian -- through egyptian territory and then again through the rafah crossing. what this means is that it could increase the volume of aid going into the gaza strip, doubling the number of trucks. this is according to the prime minister's office that released this statement as part of the agreement to release our abductees, which is interesting that they're framing it as part

of the agreement to release more hostages. food and humanitarian aid from egypt to the civilian population in gaza will be able to increase to 200 trucks a day. this is according to the prime minister's office, and they are citing an agreement between israel and the united states as part of a larger framework for the release of hostages, and this, if it is indeed fitting into the wider conversation that qatar is having with hamas, which it still of course maintains political relationships with, then perhaps -- and that is at least the hope for the hostages' families, perhaps this would mean that in the next few days or weeks we might see some advancement in the talks to release more hostages and perhaps even the announcement of another cease fire to allow for that oxygen, more aid in, and perhaps more hostages to be released, chris. we're really going to be keeping a close eye on that front. >> hala gorani, thank you for that. i want to bring in pbs news hour

co-anchor geoff bennett, also with us retired u.s. colonel jack jacobs. geoff, you've been reporting on the growing humanitarian crisis in gaza. what's the feeling about how critical this border opening will be and what the biden administration's reaction is to it. they've wanted this for a while. >> they have, and this has been in private between the two ion allies, and so we will see, of attack on hamas, there were th hundreds of trucks of humanitarian aid that made their way into gaza. that number dwindled to just a handful, dozens during the early parts of this war. o the goal is to find some way to limit the civilian suffering and the civilian impact in gaza. and the thinking is that this border opening will help that in a significant way. but chris, this all comes, of course, as the administration is trying to find a point at which israel can really scale back its high intensity air assault and ground campaign in gaza and

transition to a more targeted approach as israel tries to continue its goal, move toward its goal of rooting out the terrorist threat that hamas poses. and when i think -- it's so interesting, one of the points that the national security adviser jake sullivan who's in the region as you mentioned for meetings, in his view, this is not a contradiction. he was really trying to down play the sense of division and tension between the two allies. he makes clear that when this war started, israel made clear that it would proceed in phases, and in sullivan's view, there's no contradiction between acknowledging that this will be a phased approach and the u.s. calling for the next portion of that phase, a transition from a high intensity ground and air campaign to a more targeted one, chris. >> so all of this comes, jack, as we've learned at nbc news through some sources that our folks have talked to that israel has been dropping a ton of imprecise bombs known as dumb

bombs, quote, out of 29,000 air to ground munitions used in gaza, about 40 to 45% were unguided the sources said citing reporting from the office of the director of national intelligence. what is the net effect of that, and why are they using so many? >> well, they don't have an unlimited number of precision guided munitions. that's the first thing. the second is in a very concentrated area like gaza, gaza city in particular and the other cities in gaza where you have a concentration of both buildings and people, there's not a lot of difference in the effect between precision guided munitions on the one hand and dumb bombs on the other. israel, the idf is on the horns of a couple of dilemmas, not the least significant of which is the tactics involved. as they become more successful and push farther to the south, it reduces the area in which they're above combatants and

non-combatants. it means they have to take it more slowly if they're going to be able to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants, use the proper munitions. on the other hand, more slowly means a longer war that risks even more international program and makes it much more difficult to garner the support of those who support them. so it's extremely difficult, chris. >> so using smart bombs, which as you say they're limited in how many munitions they have of that type, is it actually in practice not going to have a significant effect? because if not, why is the u.s. pushing for that? >> it's difficult to say why we are pushing for a greater use of precision guided munitions when at the end of the day, the independent variable here is good intelligence, either there are hamas in the building or they are not in the building, and it's extremely difficult to tell without getting people on the ground to actually go into

the building before you strike it. this means that the battle and the war takes even longer and risks even more aprobe yum and dissatisfaction both in israel and outside israel. in a battle like this, in combat like this, there's not much difference in the effect, chris. >> geoff, i want to play a bit of what the national security adviser told a local israeli tv station today. take a listen. >>. >> i'm not here to lecture or dictate. israel is a friend and a partner. we sit down and we consult and we talk as friends. president biden talks to prime minister netanyahu. >> sometimes friends have tensions between them, and i don't think anybody is going to say there aren't tensions between the u.s. and israel right now, between benjamin netanyahu and joe biden. so listening to jake sullivan, it sounds almost as like they're our friend for as long as it takes.

is that the case, geoff? >> i think that's a fair assessment, chris. administration officials make the point that even as they urge restraint, that this is still israel's war to fight, and israel is justified in its retaliation. we've also heard the u.s. officials rule out this notion of placing conditions on u.s. -- continued u.s. aid, and so we will see. at outset, one of the things that administration officials had said and even president biden gave voice to this in some way, he said that his unequivocal and forceful support of israel in many ways gave him more leverage and gave him more sway with netanyahu. that will all come to bear over the coming weeks and months, you know. what good is that leverage as the administration continues to make clear that israel must in some way find a way to limit the civilian suffering and impact as the humanitarian crisis grows and as the palestinian death toll mounts, chris. >> geoff bennett, colonel jack

jacobs, always great to see both of you. right now the jury is deciding the financial future of a man once revered as a political titan. we're back in 60 seconds. if rz if a few years ago, i came to saona, they told me there's no electricity on the island. we always thought that whatever we did here would be an emblem of what small communities can achieve. trying to give a better life to people that don't have the means to do it. si mi papá estuviera vivo, sé que él tuviera orgulloso también de vivir de esta viviendo una vida como la que estamos viviendo ahora. es electricidad aquí es salud.

. today could be a reckoning for rudy giuliani, a d.c. jury remains locked in deliberations for a second straight day assessing how much he should pay for defaming two georgia election workers, a number that could run into the tens of millions of dollars.. in his closing giuliani's defense attorney did not try to justify theormer mayor's lies, but he said giuliani could not have anticipated that they would trigger a wave of hateful racist threats against ruby freeman and shaye moss. smosz and freeman's attorneys rejected that saying the reaction was not only foreseeable, it was inevitable. i want to bring in ryan reilly who's been following this case.

what's the latest? >> reporter: we're still waiting to hear back from the jury. as you mentioned, this could be in the millions of dollars and there's a real scope here, what the jury asked for yesterday was some of the exhibits that were used by the plaintiffs here that sort of justified the reasoning why the damage was this much, and what they say is that it would cost millions of dollars, $24 million for each of them really to make up for the damage that was done, and then of course the jury could also decide on a punitive penalty on top of that, which might be up to four times that potential amount. and because these lies were sort of perpetrated by people with these huge microphones, you know, the cascading effects of that were enormous, and you know, obviously the impact that the plaintiffs have argued having those really racist, vicious attacks on them ask voice mails and messages and things mailed to their homes and pizza sent to their homes as well with racist messages was inevitable based on what, you know, the claims that were being made coming from the trump campaign and their allies here,

chris. >> ryan reilly, thank you for that. well, from trump's former lawyer to his former chief of staff, mark meadows now trying for a second time to get his election interference case moved out of georgia, hoping to ultimately establish immunity from the charges. that battle is playing out in front of an appeals court. meadows' argument that he's acting -- he was acting as chief of staff and therefore in his federal capacity. that was already rejected once by a judge back in september. today the state argued that was actually correct because the charges against meadows stem from actions he took on behalf of the trump campaign, and, therefore, don't qualify for immunity. meadows' attorney says that's a federal question that needs to be resolved in federal court. >> the net effect, your honor, of anything but removal here is that the question of does mr. meadows have a supremacy clause defense.

what is the extent of the duties of the chief of staff for the president of the united states? what political activity or non, as the case may be, engaged in, are all going to be sent to a state court to decide. that makes no sense. >> i want to bring in nbc's blayne alexander who's in atlanta for us. carol lam is a former federal prosecutor and an msnbc legal analyst. >> these are the same arguments he raised in the court below, chris, and he didn't prevail in those arguments. it seemed from the oral argument this morning in front of the appellate court that the odds that he's going to be able to prevail here are fairly slim, not only because he lost in the lower court but also because there is now an additional hurdle he has to clear, which is a recent case by the very same court of appeals that holds that a former official in a parallel kind of statute can't be

prosecuted because the statute only says -- it doesn't say former officials. it says current officials, so now mark meadows has two hurdles he has to clear. it seems like the chances are increasingly slim he's going to get a reversal of the lower court by this appellate court. >> yeah, that original ruling said that meadows didn't prove that what he did in georgia, which included checking on a ballot audit, setting up the phone call between trump a t secretary of state, none of it had anything to do with his role as chief of staff, which the state said meadows never actually defined. take a listen. >> mr. meadows consistently in briefing and whe he testified provided no limits whatsoever, and expected then for the court to simply rubber stamp his representations as to what his job actually was and how it was connected to this case. >> but the question the judges asked, carol, was is it fair to force him to prove all that now

or is that like asking him to present his defense before the actual trial has even started? >> right, it is a sort of circular kind of argument that the georgia state prosecutors have to say. they have to say he hasn't met his burden. that is what is required. he has to -- he is the moving party here. he has to actually show some color -- that is plausible defense, and the georgia prosecutor has effectively argued in front of the lower court and he's repeated this argument here to the appellate court that you can't just say my job was to be the alter egoof the president and whatever the president did or wanted to do, that was part of my job. it has to be confined and constrained in some way, and what judge stone relied on below was basically the hatch act, which says that you cannot campaign politically as a government official, and that's

what mark meadows was doing. so the judge below rejected the argument that basically the chief of star is just the alter ego of the president. >> blayne, remind us why it's such a big deal to meadows to get the case moved. are there real advantages to him having the trial in federal court instead of fulton county? >> reporter: absolutely. i mean, i think the top of that list, chris, is going to be the fact that his argument of immunity is likely to fall on more sympathetic possibly ears under a federal judge than if it were in state court. the fact that he could argue i was acting as a federal officer, arguing that before a federal judge in a federal court could give him a better outcome. if this case does go to federal court, it's likely that he would be having this trial heard before a more favorable jury pool. that's because if it remains at the state level, if it's fulton county, then you're only talking about fulton county jurors. fulton county, as we all know is a very strong blue county here in georgia, a democratic stronghold, but if it's moved to federal court, then we're talking about jurors that would

come from the entire northern district of georgia. that includes a lot of red counties as well, and that could possibly mean more sympathetic jurors. the other thing, chris, just kind of interesting logistical difference, if it were in state court, it would be televise ds. it's going to be televised in the fulton county courthouse. everything done there is live streamed on youtube. if it's in federal court that is not the case. there would not be cameras in court and that's likely something that would be appealing to mark meadows as well. >> after meadows' initial attempt was reject instead september, donald trump's attorney said he would not even try to get his case moved, but i mean, i would imagine that could change depending on what this appeals court decides, right? they could still do that, try that if they want. >> actually, probably not. >> no? >> the statute -- the statute -- the removal statute requires that the moving party that wants to move to federal court has to bring that motion within a very

short period of time, i believe it's 30 days, and i think that time has passed for the former president to bring that motion. now, he could still end up in federal court if mark meadows is successful in moving to federal court, there is a line of reasoning that the entire georgia case would move to federal court, but that -- even that is not clear, and it is possible that donald trump decided not to bring the removal motion because he was worried that then he might feel compelled to actually testify at the hearing as mark meadows did, and his lawyers may have prevailed upon him at that point that it wasn't worth the risk. >> blayne, any idea when we might have a decision on this? >> we could expect it any week, chris. there's no deadline they have to submit this by. judge jones took several weeks to submit his opinion. the other thing, when we talk about timing in this, of course if it is knocked down, if this is rejected by this panel of judges, mark meadows could easily appeal this again, all the way up potentially to the supreme court, and so when you

look at the time line there, of course, we know that in fulton county, fani willis has made it clear, she wants to try this case starting in august of 2024, and she wants all the defendants to be tried together. when you question what the time line could look like with this mark meadows issue, that could possibly have a ripple effect on the trial as a whole, chris. >> blayne alexander and carol lam, thank you both. still to come, an nbc news exclusive out of moscow. our own keir simmons sitting down with one of putin's right hand men. a wide-ranging conversation from the invasion of ukraine to the presidential election coming up next. >> it is a war now, isn't it? >> it is a war, of course. it is a war, it is a breed war that actually the united states is orchestrating against our country. our country. fiber gels to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down and also helps lower cholesterol and slows sugar absorption to promote healthy blood sugar levels.

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today new insights into how russia sees its war with ukraine. in an nbc news exclusive interview, our keir simmons asked kremlin spokesperson dmitry peskov about this week's visit by ukraine's president to capitol hill asking for more funding. >> america is strongly involved in this conflict. america and european countries, supplying ukraine with weapons, you are becoming a part of this conflict. willingly or unwillingly, and you have to understand your responsibility for that. you are making this conflict

longer. >> nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons joins us now from moscow. what more did you learn from peskov today? >> reporter: well, chris, a whole range of things, but one crucial one, though, in terms of the u.s. nationals paul whelan and the wall street journal reporter evan gershkovich, i asked about them. remember that president putin had said yesterday that he was prepared to do a deal for those two, we don't know what the deal would potentially be. i wanted to try to find out more, i asked a kremlin spokesperson about that. take a listen. >> what deal do you want? >> you know, this is very sensitive issue. the more we're trying to highlight this issue, the more -- the more of difficult it will be to reach the agreement. >> but it is -- it is a notable shift, though. i mean, he's openly saying we're

interested in a deal. >> president putin is always interested in a deal. but it is a deal that presumes that interests of both sides are taken into consideration. >> when we've spoken before, i've suggested to you that these people are hostages. >> they are not hostages. they are not hostages. they are in custody. they are not hostages. >> reporter: chris, i also asked about another u.s. national who was held here. he suggested there may be a deal for her but didn't have very much more to share. fundamentally, he talks about russia wanting talks, wanting a deal, but on russia's terms across ukraine and those u.s. prisoners. it's that same story, very difficult for the u.s. to engage

with. >> then there's putin's most high profile critic, alexy navalny who is apparently missing in the kremlin prison system. what's the kremlin saying about that? >> he's been missing for ten days now. they've searched ten prisons and haven't been able to find him. i asked dmitry peskov about him. he won't even say his name. he tried to claim it's nothing to do with the kremlin, it's just the russian legal system. i did say to him it's pretty suspicious that alexei navalny goes missing when president putin says he wants to stand for election again next year. i think he's just missing. i think -- i suspect that he will turn up again if you like somewhere, but i can't tell you how long. those elections next year aren't until march. >> keir simmons, thank you for that. the fight to send more aid to ukraine and israel is officially eating into vacation

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the house has already been sent home for the holidays with no plan to return until after the new year. senate majority leader chuck

schumer delayed recess for the senate to allow negotiators to hammer out a deal on immigration, which is a precondition for republicans to pass aid tond israel. but despite some signs of opmism, stark differences remain. punch bowl writes this. the same structural problems with these talks that existed before thursday did just magically resoethemselves. in some ways, they may have gotten worse over the last 24 hours. republicans are making it clear they won't vote to advance a shell bill next week without seeing elective text. in other words, a framework isn't enough. it's a point senator lindsey graham hit on last night. >> we've been doing this for 90 days. there is no legislative text. the white house just got involved three days ago. you expect to, you know, to run out the clock and get it done? i hope they bring up an immigration proposal that doesn't do the job to see if i vote no, i will gladly vote no to a bad deal next week.

i am not going to be pressed to do something that doesn't make sense. >> nbc's julie tsirkin is on capitol hill for us. give us an update on where negotiations stand right now. are there any points of agreement we know of? >> reporter: well, the negotiations are progressing. they are making good progress. that is what senator sinema told me just a couple of minutes ago. i was staking out a meeting between the three negotiators, senator sinema, senator langford on the republican side and senator chris murphy that lasted several hours with department of homeland secured secretary alejandro mayorkas. this is the third time this week he made a trip to the capitol to get in the room, you see him on the screen leaving the building this morning. sinema told me they plan to gather again in just about two hours from now to huddle and try to hammer out details of this negotiation. i spoke to chris murphy, chris, a couple of moments ago, and he did tell me that in order to get this done, they have to essentially put text on paper, wrap that process up by the end

of the weekend to get a bill with this immigration proposal in it next week, which is of course what schumer wants and what senators like lindsey graham on the right have said they are cautious to rush into. i spoke to sinema yesterday for more on the process. here's what she told me. >> it's very complex, and so we have to be very careful as we're negotiating that we both come to the right policy decisions and that we can actually implement them, so i believe everybody wants a solution. i think that the challenge here is to help people be willing to continue to compromise to get to that solution that is workable and implementable. >> you think the white house is negotiating in good faith and they're ready to compromise? >> i believe everyone is negotiating in good faith right now. >> reporter: here's the reality and this is something that senator murphy had laid out to me, while republicans want to wait, they prefer to take this up in january. give everyone time to take the time to put all of this in text form. this is an issue that has not been solved for more than three decades by congress, really take

the time to know what they're putting on paper here and if it would actually work to stop the flow at the border. but the problem as senator murphy laid out, if you punt all of that work into january, you have an extremely tight time line. the house is going to have to pass not only this immigration funding and ukraine funding and israel funding bill, but they also have those funding deadlines, the first of which is approaching in mid-january, and it's just too much to get done in that short period of time. so it is for all of those reasons that negotiators hope to hammer something out by the end of this week. >> nbc's julie tsirkin on the hill for us, thank you. the race to replace george santos there on the hill has gotten very hot very fast. new york republicans are now backing nasa county legislator, ma si pill up to replace san tum. pill lup is an ethiopia immigrant, a former para trooper, a mother of seven and a

registered democrat according to "politico." the actual democratic candidate is former congressman tom swa si and last hour county republicans introduced pillup as their choice. >> the feature of our nation is a stake in this race for the third congressional district on february 13. i am the only person in this race who has never asked to be a member of the squad and never will. >> joining me now is former florida republican congressman david jolly. i want to play just a little bit more of what we heard from her at her press conference last hour, here it is. >> i stand strong with our communities in support of israel, ukraine, and all nations that are subject of terrorism. [ applause ] i will stand up to the extremes who want to destroy our way of

life, defunding the police and weakening our criminal laws and eliminating the state of israel. >> so give us your take on the race. >> well, chris, new york republicans believe they have found a star, at least that's the way they talk, but we really don't know much about the legislator. she was just elected for the first time two years ago, and we don't know much about her position on certain issues. she shares the nomination in this race with the new york conservative party which has a very hard right abortion platform. i think the interesting thing that this race will put in front of voters and ultimately the country is in a biden plus 8 district, joe biden won this district by eight points, you will see the national parties put a lot of money behind messaging around the issue of abortion and around joe biden's economy. and how does the newly appointed republican candidate handle that against a relatively well-known 20-year democratic politician in

that race? we will see. >> i'm just curious what you think the republican party decided here, why they decided somebody who's been a democrat for more than a decade could they not find a republican? >> yeah, real curiosity here, chris. look, new york republicans are running into some wind here. they're facing redistricting. they know that even santos might not have been reelected now, can this new candidate get elected. tom swasi has been a congressman, a county executive. a gubernatorial candidate, a strong mainstream candidate. for republicans to choose somebody really unvetted by voters, the county party said they really did vet her. a registered democrat. again, facing really hard questions on the issue of abortion and the economy, hard issues for a national race, big ques for today's new york republicans. >> the cook political report has

this as just one of 15 republican tossup races kroosz the country, plus ten democratically held seats they consider to be tossups. can either side afford a weak candidate in any single race if they want to have a chance of taking control. >> let's take the short-term and then the long-term. the short-term is the margin in the house really matters with the resignation of kevin mccarthy, you have an ohio republican member soon leaving. if this republican nominee leaves, you could have a one seat margin in the house, and we've already seen how difficult it is with a three to four-seat margin with republicans. in the short run, both parties really want the seat. here's what happens in the special election, though, i was the product of a spring special election. you will see the national parties in every special interest group from the issue of reproductive rights to immigration to taxes, they will spend a ton of money in this race to message so they can get

their footing going into november, and my race maybe ten years ago, my special election, i think about $20 million was spent in ten weeks, and the candidates only controlled about 3 million of that. everything else was outside money. that is how this race is setting up. all the outside groups will try to tackle this district. >> former congressman david jolly, can you stay with us, david? because we have some breaking news and i want to get your thoughts on it on the other side. it comes to us out of israel where idf spokesman daniel hagar ree has just announced israel is taking responsibility for what it calls the accidental death of three hostages. nbc's hala gorani has more for us. what do we know, hala? >> reporter: yeah, we're just looking through that full idf statement for you, chris. it appears that during a combat operation in the gaza strip, the idf, the israeli military mistakenly shot and killed three hostages that were trying to flee. their bodies, we're being told, were transferred to israeli

territory for examination, and it's upon examination of the bodies that they determined that they were three israeli hostages inside of gaza, perhaps as i mentioned there, attempting to run away from their captors. the israeli military might have confused them with hamas and at that point came at them and shot them. we understand that two of the hostages have been named, one was kidnapped on october 7th. the other kidnapped also on october 7th. the third hostage not named at the request of the family of that individual. they have been notified, though, so all families, the three families of those three individuals have been notified of the deaths of their relatives, and you can imagine knowing that up until very recently they had managed to survive inside the gaza strip in hamas captivity and that

eventually they ended up being killed by friendly fire. this has been confirmed as well, as you mentioned by daniel hagari, who's the idf spokesperson. i'm reading this a little cold, chris, i apologize if i'm looking down quite a bit. daniel hagari says we estimate the three israelis either fled or were abandoned by the terrorists who held them captive, and during the last few days or this day they reached the point that they reached, and that is where, unfortunately as a result of friendly fire, they were killed, chris. this is what we can share with you at this stage as we continue to gather more information on the fate of these three hostages. this would leave still over 130 individuals detained in hamas captivity inside the gaza strip, chris. >> , to us if you're able to learn any more. but thank you for rolling with us on this breaking news. i want to bring back colonel jack jacobs. a couple of questions for you,

jack. first, either according to daniel hagari they fled or were abandoned. my first question is were they armed, which seems unlikely if they escaped, but we don't know anything right now, right? but what are the questions you have about how this might have happened, jack? >> yeah, unlikely that they were armed. you know, it's interesting that earlier in the hour we discussed around this very subject the smaller the area is, the more concentrated the population of both combatants and non-combatants, the more labor-intensive and time intensive the battle and the more difficult it becomes to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. it's terrible to say that this sort of stuff is inevitable, but in a situation like this, you can almost be correct in saying it is inevitable. at the point of decision where you have people getting fired

on, you're in the middle of a firefight, decisions have to be made in a split second, and occasionally from time to time they are the wrong decision. all of us who spent time in the crucible of combat have seen errors like this. it's an unfortunate set of circumstances but it's the kind of thing that happens in situations like this in intense, urban combat where you have hostages, noncombatants unfortunately on both sides are liable to wind up as casualties. >> we're get ago little more information, hagari spoke in hebrew so we're getting a translation. i want to read to you a little bit more of what he said. he said this is a combat zone, making your point, jack, where there have been many incidents in recent days. there's no further explanation, at least in this translation of what he meant by that, but he said immediate lessons from the event are now being passed on to all the fighting forces in the field.

what do you expect that might look like? >> well, it's going to slow down the advance of the idf, we talked about that also earlier. the more difficult the combat becomes, the more careful the idf has to be, the slower it is. that means that it becomes -- that works across purposes with both netanyahu's objective of wrapping this thing up as quickly as possible and also the objective of even else. it's a genuine dilemma, the more careful you are, the slower the advance, the longer the war, the more difficult it becomes to find a resolution, and this is definitely going to slow everything down and make life extremely difficult for people on both sides, particularly the gazans who require replenishment of food and water and so on. this is going to slow everything down and make it more difficult

to complete the mission that netanyahu has promised the israelis this he will do. >> so let's talk a little bit, david jolly, about the political implications here, which can have an impact on military decisions that are made and certainly diplomatic pressure that is brought to bear. i was just handed a couple of sheets of paper that include background on the two identified hostages or who we believe to be, their names match what idf officials say are the names of the hostages who were killed. one of them was just 22 years old who had been working on october 7th in the kibbutz hatchery where he often did weekend shifts requiring him to be at the hen house in the early hours of the morning. they tried reaching him, but they couldn't reach him. he worked with his father, his mother is a teacher, and people who knew him said he was a great

guy. we're going to continue to hear these stories, the personalization, and i think as, you know, was rightly pointed out, these are focus who have survived. somehow they have managed now to survive for months, and they clearly were fleeing what they thought for their lives and it ended. what do you imagine the political implications are and what the conversations are right now both in the white house and in congress? >> yeah, chris, this is heartbreaking. it's a very real world example of the loss of life at a time of war that will strain our domestics politics and frankly stress test some of the interna. i think we have to baseline this and recognize that multiple things can be true at the same time. these hostages would be alive today if hamas had not attacked and taken them as hostage. these hostages would be alive today if hamas had released them. these hostages would be alive

today if hamas surrendered. they chose not to. israel is engaged and as the colonel said, dangerous urban warfare where these casualties have occurred, and the loss of innocent life has now occurred, and it will be something that american voters, certainly israeli citizens will be able to put a face and a story to and questions around u.s. policy and its alliance with israel at a time of very difficult warfare decisions will be tested. you have seen joe biden and his administration acknowledge that there is strain now between the two traditional allies. i suspect that alliance will still continue very strongly, but this will be a matter that does raise questions in terms f the u.s. position with israel's decisions going forward. >> there is, i think, a parallel. stay with me on this, jack jacobs, the war you fought, and

this, they were both very controversial. they caused a lot of protests, unrest, difficult decisions. what would you imagine the political impact of this might be or do you think it will be, as you say, this is what happens. we're talking about intense urban combat, as he said in the statement, this is a combat zone, and people who have served in the military and particularly served in times of war know that unfortunately and tragically, this is what can happen. >> war is an extension of politics by other means. most wars are, if not all of them are. and there are political consequences to waging war and even to winning war. you talk about the -- maybe the split between the united states and israel, it's not just on the tactics, and that's going to cause repercussions inside the united states as we have already noted, but also has an impact on

what happens at the end. you know, the united states has been trying to curry favor with and empower the palestinian authority. sullivan has been over there recently and the israelis have said, no, palestinian authority is not going to be able to run gaza. nobody likes the palestinian authority. they got voted out. there's no way the palestinian authority is going to be able to ensure that there are no terrorists, but this is another dilemma, the strategic dilemma that has political consequences. israel has come to the conclusion that only its occupation of gaza at the end is going to ensure that hamas doesn't come back. on the other hand, there's no political support for that anywhere. and that's why the united states has been talking about somebody else, in this case, the palestinian authority, to control gaza, but that has a

political component. it's part of the disagreement, public disagreement between the united states and the israelis, and it's going to become more intense the longer the war goes on, and towards the end when a decision has to be made who is going to control gaza at the moment that's going to be. if there's a big split between the united states and israel on the subject of gaza, it will be this. who is going to control gaza when the shooting stops, chris. >> we have now gotten pictures of the two hostages who have been killed, who have now been identified, one is the 22-year-old i mentioned it you working at the kibbutz on october 7th. other, yotam haim, a drummer for a heavy metal band, 28 years old, he was last seen in a video he took that morning showing himself at the front door of his

home. at one point very recently, his brother who is also a drummer said on one of his facebook postings, my brother, please come back to me. we are waiting. we are in the middle right now, david jolly, of important negotiations. they're largely focused on the border, but ultimately the question is funding for israel and ukraine. does this at all become part of the conversation? >> it does. it's a great question, chris, because i think six to eight weeks ago, there was this presumption that aid to israel would happen quickly and without question. you did see because republicans wanted to pair it with domestic border control, you saw a delay. well, within that delay, you could see the ground shift a little bit on the question of u.s. support for israel's current campaign in gaza and against hamas, so there are hard questions that i think ultimately may end up leading to

legislative decisions about is there a certain restriction on the aid. are there qualifications for the aid, is the aid less? in the end, i don't think so. the u.s. still considers hamas, rightfully so, in my opinion, a terrorist organization. only a terrorist organization would take innocent individuals and hold them hostage and keep them in a combat zone. and so you will see strong support for an aid package to israel. you are hearing the biden administration express reservations and we're looking for arab partners to come in and play some role in some type of final solution. none of this will happen before the november '24 election, though. >> congressman david jolly, colonel jack jacobs, thank you for being with us. an idf force misidentified three israeli hostages as a throat. as a result, the force fired on them, and they were killed. we'll be right back.

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