compromise that would have saved the right to abortion is on the cusp of becoming reality. we cannot say that. but we know that the deliberative process was at play, that there were efforts of persuasion. the chief justice only needed one vote to make his 15-week position work. and also, chief justice, sorry, justice breyer was so interested in this that he consider joining this 15-week position, which would have been a symbolic move. and then the leak comes along and those efforts become hopeless. and so part of what we need to remember about this decision is that it really does look like somebody did something really inappropriate and intended to interfere with the process in some way. >> that reporting about the effect, which also is new, we just didn't know, we still don't know what happened, but the effect is profound and interesting. the whole piece is fantastic.

thank you, jodi kantor for doing it, and thank you for coming on tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> that is all in for this week. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. t starts >> that story is phenol and deeply distressing. we all know how it ends, of course, which is the overturning of roe v. wade in the dobbs decision. nonetheless we will walk through this in this in the same details that seem deeply the -- >> the word feels like they're deceiving the public so that it cannot look like yet, we're waiting around for her to die, now we've got a person, let's go do it. that feels -- >> one of sam elite owes former law clerk's argues case in front of him? a lot of red flags. we're gonna have more on the hour with the other reporter on that story. have a great weekend. today rudy giuliani finally got a taste of accountability. jurors in the defamation case against giuliani awarded former

fulton county election workers ruby freeman and shaye moss a staggering $148 million in damages for the lies mr. giuliani spread about them. giuliani has already said he will appeal the ruling. and we will get some expert help on what that means for this case, in just a second. but throughout this trial we have learned so much more about what exactly happened here. most of what we understood about ruby freeman and shaye moss's story before this trial was about the lies giuliani and trump pushed about these two women and the threats that followed. and what we've learned through the trial is how much those threats actually impacted their lives. it was ruby freeman outside the court after today's verdict. >> i want people to understand this. money will never solve all of my problems. i can never move back into the house that i call home.

i will always have to be careful about where i go and who i choose to share my name with. i miss my home. i miss my neighbors. and i missed my name. >> today we got the transcript of samos's testimony from this trial. it is filled with previously untold and heartbreaking stories. for one thing, this mosque claim that mr. giuliani's lies ruer career. moss had work for fulton county's election systemor a decade. when she got job she had she had during the 2020 election she said she was so excited that she literally dropped to her knees and cries these and cried for everyone. when she was asked why she loved that job so much, miles replied that she knew it would make her grandmother proud. going up all her life hearing

stories about how as a black woman a lot of the women before her and her family did not have that right. and for moss, this wasn't just about her ideals in the abstract. it was a way to further those ideals in a real tangible way. miss moss works specifically with absentee voters, and here's how she described that work. the second thing i liked but my job is, the absentee mail-in ballots, the elderly, the disabled, people living permanently overseas, the military overseas, people away at college, basically anyone and able to come to the polls. i really enjoyed helping them exercise that right when they were in a position feeling like they won't be able to vote because they can't make it, and i like coming through for them and helping them. but rudy giuliani's lies made sheamus a pariah at work. she had panic attacks. she broke down crying in the bathroom. so she tried to find another

job. she heard of an opening at chick-fil-a, fast food chain. the salary was lower but it would be an escape from her nightmare. she mentally prepared herself to work her way up from the bottom. she said she could make fries, she could work the cash register. at the end of her job interew for that position, this haened. the guy interviewing her turn his laptop around and showe an article of me, my face, plastered on it. fraud, in big letters. and the video that's been going around. and he was like, you know, the last question, tell me about this. is this you? is this true? moss was so embarrassed she just left the interview. rudy giuliani's lies impacted moss's family as well. her 14-year-old son was in remote schooling when this all happened because of the pandemic. moss couldn't afford wi-fi. so her son used an old cell phone of hers as a hot spot. but then conspiracy theorists

found that phone number. they constantly called him. they constantly messaged. it would knock him out of the class and the teacher wouldn't let you back in. you can't keep coming in and out of the zoom. her 14-year-old son was bombarded with messages that use the n-word or said his mother would be hanged. the child who had been getting good grades started failing every class that year. when sheamus was asked in the court but she was most afraid of she replied i am most scared of my son finding me or my mom hanging in front of our house in a tree. despite the clear and profound damage that giuliani has continued to lie about rudy ruby freeman and shaye moss, he's continuing to lie about them even tonight. he says he will show that the two women are the liars and that he is the one telling the truth when it comes time for his appeal. to any claims he has evidence

that, again, he cannot show us just yet. >> i've not been allowed to offer one piece of evidence in defense, of which i have a lot. so i am quite confident when this case gets before a fair tribunal. it will be reversed so quickly it will make your head spin. >> clear, this is still not over for rudy giuliani, and it's not over for ruby freeman and shaye moss either. >> today is not the end of the road. we still have work to do. rudy giuliani was not the only one who spread lies about us. and others must be held accountable as well. >> when dominion voting machines sued fox news for defamation over its role in pushing the big lie, fox ended up settling for 700 and $87 million. and now rudy giuliani's on the

hook for 100 and $48 million. that means spreading the lie that donald trump somehow secretly won the 2020 election has cost the people pushing that lie nearly a billion dollars. and just as ruby freeman said, there is still a lot more ahead. joining me now is jon lankford, one of the attorneys representing ruby freeman and shaye moss. he also serves as counsel at the nonprofit legal center protect democracy. john, thank you for joining me tonight. and congratulations to you and your clients for getting some measure of accountability there. i just wonder, since you are intimately involved in the proceedings and all this, whether you can tell us what miss moss and miss freeman's reaction was to the number assigned to the damages by the jury here, nearly hundred and $50 million. >> thank you for having me tonight. i can tell you the reaction to

the verdict. miss moss, shea, told me tonight, justice was served. she said you know people shiite finally had a chance to hear me tell my story and miss freeman, ruby, said, and they listened. so setting aside the number for a moment, this was an incredible moment for miss freeman and miss moss. i think actually one of the most moving parts of the trial, being there, was when we played the deposition of the george investigators who actually investigated these claims and did all of the things that giuliani did not do, talk to witnesses, review the evidence. they went through, line by line, and said there is no truth to any of this. and in hearing them say that in a court, miss moss teared up. and then she was beaten beaming because the truth is established. it is out there, finally.

as for the number, if you know ruby and shaye you know that they are true heroes. they came into this seeking justice, but not assuming anything because that's not the kind of people that they are. and so i think they are vindicated tonight and proud of the verdict that finally, after so long establishes that mr. giuliani had been lying this entire time. >> yeah, and i don't want to diminish that because that's something that can never be taken away from them again, which is the belief in their stories, the fact that they are telling the truth. but i do want to ask because we are aware, at least on the outside of reporting, that rudy giuliani is in pretty significant financial straits. i think a lot of people in the

system and taking a ruby freeman edge and shaye moss couldn't get any of that money in reality? what is the likelihood of that, given the fact that rudy giuliani is being sued by his own lawyers, his ex-wife, his apartment is on the market. it doesn't seem like, at least on the outside, that he has any of those millions of dollars. >> the verdict is in. what he owes ruby and shaye. but the jury is out on what he has. and we specifically asked for all information that would show us what his financial status looks like. and guess who didn't produce basically any of that information? rudy giuliani. so i would say that we have a very talented team of colleagues at the law firm wilkie and fire and gonna work diligently to track down every asset that he has and work to ensure that what he has rightly goes to ruby and shaye for what he owes them.

>> do you think mr. giuliani's going to have to post a sizeable bond to stay the execution of thi agreement? >> that's a great question. the answer is, normally that is exactly what has to happen. we will see whether that is something that he intends to do. we intend to move as expeditiously as possible, including to get the court to weigh the automatic stay of execution so that we can start enforcement proceedings immediately. >> and finally, do you see any chance of rudy giuliani on giuliani saying this is gonna be turned over an appeal? is there any validity to that? >> no. is the short answer. throughout this case he have offered the defense that this was his opinion. well, it's not an opinion when you offer facts. it's also, even 80s an opinion, you have facts you don't

produce, you don't get the opinion defense. he said the civil, he has a set of arguments that he has raised over and over again to have absolutely no merit. i think the underlying point is that today is a real moment of hope, because what it shows is that why you have people like rudy giuliani who go out in the street, in front of the courthouse, or on their web shows late at night, and say whatever they want, when you come into a court of law you have to have facts, you have to have evidence, and the truth matters. the system today worked. a jury of mr. giuliani's peers looked at him and judged him liable to the tune of nearly 100 and $50 million, to the heroes who are ruby freeman and shaye moss. >> jon lankford, a big day for you, a big day for justice, a big day for accountability. thank you so much for your time. now i'd like to turn to maya wylie, former federal

prosecutor presidency of the leadership conference on civil and human rights. maya, i just can't get over the fact that the big lie itself was directed at american democracy but specifically directed to disenfranchise people of color and their vote in big open centers across united states. two of the women who were in the crosshairs of that disenfranchisement have gone to court and one. and i wonder what you think this means for the systematic effort to disenfranchise people of color, women of color. >> look, i don't think there's anything more important than getting this vindication in this jury case, civil case, but remember that not only where they public servants, non partisan public servants, just making sure peoples ballots got collected and counted. the central point of our

democracy in a state where so many black people are facing challenges by the state itself to make it harder for them to vote. and yet here they were just doing their job. remember, part of what rudy giuliani does here, and the trump campaign and donald trump himself, is they use racist stereotypes about them as black women. they called them, rudy giuliani call them drug dealers, hustlers. none of that has to do with election fraud, by the way. it's language. it was specifically racist stereotypes. 80% of coal were poll workers are, women most more likely to be subject to violence and violent threats. this was so important to say not only do black people, black women, have a right to participate in every aspect of our democracy, including being public servants, it sends a

message to everyone who tries to do election administration because we know that these big lies, these threats of violence, have meant that one in three neutral, public servant, election administrators, are fearful for their lives and for their families because of threats. 11% have quit. it is a direct attack on our ability doing to just run an election. so every time we get a victory in a case like this this is no you can't, no you won't, and you'll pay the price, it matters. >> it matters a lot. it actually matters so much more than the actual money itself. the victory is the thing. it leads me to the broader context of all of this, which is donald trump claims racism for the prosecutors were trying to hold him accountable. many of them, if not all of them, are people of color. whether it's just james, alvin bragg, fani willis. it is an extraordinary moment in american life that the sort of racial subtext comes so

fully flower, so fully in the american public life. where donald trump has been calling these people racist when in fact based on his history, based on language, based on reality, we know the inverse is most likely true, that the racist is the one who was actually getting held accountable here. i wonder what you think this does in terms of the contours of the broader fight and whether this dms the enthusiasm for the big lie, whether this acts as a deterrent to those who further propagated. >> i think we have to do a lot more to deter the big lie. i do think it matters, though. because every time we exacted cost for threatening our system, for using racism to undermine it, for attacking human beings who have every right to live their lives free, safe, able to do their jobs, work, support their families, every time that

happens when we get a defamation case, light dominion, holding fox news accountable, same kinds of lies, even when they didn't believe them knew they were lies. all of those things matter to protect democracy. every time there's a cost to directly trying to undermine it, knowing you are undermining it. and let me add one point that's very important. if we don't take care of this social media platform or platforms that are intentionally and knowingly spreading lies that we have documented proof lead to violent acts we may see a lot more violence in the election cycle. so we do have to hold folks accountable. that includes the social media platforms. >> it's sort of undermines the progress we are making on accountability when the lies continue unabated. mia wiley, this is one of those decisions i feel like the after effects are long. this is up there with the january six rioters, the

potential of holding trump accountable in federal case. ruby freeman and shaye moss are avatars for justice that's long overdue. thank you, as always. great to see you. coming up, donald trump is already facing 40 counts of mishandling classified documents, and today we learned that a binder filled with highly classified information leading to the russian investigation just disappeared in the final days of the trump administration. it has yet to be found. that is next. yet to be found that is next that is next >> causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve memory. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. meet the traveling trio. the thrill seeker. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase.

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and reminder of all the abilities you are helping make possible. merry christmas! please call the number on your screen and give just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day or whatever you can to help kids like us this christmas. >> at the end of every year, and when you do, your gift will have two times the impact. congress rushes through a bill to fund the u.s. military, the defense budget. there's not much fanfare around its passage but the defense budget is considered a must pass bill. so it's the perfect vehicle for members of congress to hide easter eggs, important policy

that they don't want to get a lot of attention. this year one of those easter eggs came in the form of a bipartisan amendment from senators tim kaine and mark -- and that amendment would bar any president from unilaterally pulling the united states out of the nato alliance. okay, in the 74 years since nato was founded, there has only been one american president who toyed with the idea of pulling out of that alliance. his name is donald trump. nato's primary function is of course to counter russian aggression in europe, and trump 's close relationship with vladimir putin apparently made nato a target for trump. trump repeatedly talked about pulling out of nato during his presidency, according to multiple reports, and there is good reason to believe he would follow through on that if he is elected to a second term. in fact, trump's campaign website includes a cryptic promise to finish the process he began under my administration a fundamentally

reevaluating the nato's purpose and nato's mission. and now, as of today, congress is quietly making that goal all but impossible for donald trump or anyone else. apparently even republicans in congress understand that trump is a loose cannon when it comes to national security in russia. and there are some brand-new reporting today that really highlights this reality. today cnn was the first to report that in the final days of the trump administration, a binder containing highly classified documents relating to russia's election interference, that binder mysteriously went missing and remains missing to this day. the missing binder is reportedly ten inches thick and includes raw intelligence that the u.s. and its nato allies collected on russians and russian agents. it was essentially a treasure trove of information relating to the crossfire hurricane investigation into russian

collusion. in his final days in office, trump was pushing to have all that intelligence declassified, believing it would vindicate his claims that the russian investigation was all a deep state hoax. the former white house cassidy hutchinson wrote in her book that in the final hours of the trump administration one copy of that binder was given to the right-wing political pundit john solomon. and when it was discovered that still highly classified intelligence that ended up in the hands of journalists who had no clearance to see it, a secret service agent was then dispatched to retrieve it. that agent returned later clutching a whole foods brown grocery bag full of loose documents. cassidy hutchison also told the january six committee that on the final night of the trump administration, january 19th, 2020, she saw white house chief of staff might mark meadows depart the white house with the, quote, original crossfire

hurricane binder tucked under his arm. now a lawyer for mr. meadows strenuously denies he mishandled any classified documents. but how concerned should we be, knowing that this binder filled with key intelligence about russian interference has gone missing? i'm about to ask one of the very few people on earth who is intimately familiar with that intelligence, former fbi special agent peter strzok. he joins me, coming up next. he joins me, coming up next. blems,

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at 11:45 am on or or nation day, asking the secret service how quickly they can get to the justice department because they want to do declassify something, literally in the last 15 minutes from when donald trump was president. what was that about? what was he trying to do? >> that binder had precedents to crossfire hurricane. do we want to put people back in power that have mishandled and have been showed to mishandle the most sensitive national security secrets that our nation has? that's the question that we need to ask ourselves. >> that was former white house aide cassidy hutchinson telling my colleague rachel maddow that 15 minutes before president biden was sworn in, joint chief of staff mark meadows was rushing to declassify a key intelligence about the russian investigation. today we have new reports detailing that the intelligence

community has been searching for a missing binder of classified intelligence on that very same place. joining me is peter strzok, who helped launch the cross fire hurricane investigation. peter, i know you can't talk about what he is in this binder, but i do wonder if you can give us a sense of the gravity of the secrets that are enclosed within it. >> absolutely. i am seeing most of if not all of this intelligence, the first thing to realize, i think we're doing a bit of a disservice when we call this a binder. we're talking ten inches of material. when we go to the store to pick up some paper for your printer, r.e.m. of paper, it's about two and a half inches taller, four and it's 500 pages. if you add up for those, we're talking about 4000 pages of information. not a couple of documents, not two dozen pages, this is more than 1000, easily. and within it, the potential

loss of this was so grave that the intelligence community determined that they needed to go to the senate intelligence committee and brief them on the potential loss of this information and its impact on sensitive sources and methods and that when the senate want to reveal that they had to go to langley virginia and i can't overstate how extraordinarily sensitive some of this material is. it goes to human sources, potentially individual sources that the cia and others have recruited overseas, and the question is, we are disco? as a result, what does the u.s. government have to do? if there is a source in place that's been recruited, does the cia or others have to go and exfiltrate them from where they're they happen to be living? the amount of damage that is potentially caused by this binder that just disappeared with ten inches of thousands of pages of material is just devastating. the fact that the community was briefing the senate last year, years after trump left the oval

office and nobody knows where it is, is just a damning indictment. >> and the reporting suggests, i mean, given what transpired, apparently, at mar-a-lago, we are not led to believe the donald trump really placed classified information high on his list of priorities in terms of keeping it safe and secure. and yet this is so cavalier the way he treated this information. i read an excerpt. the house has to jump through hoops just to get a look at this thing. house republicans cut a deal with the cia in which the committee brought in a safe for its documents that was then placed inside a cia vault, a set of the prompted some officials to characterize it as a target in, or a safe within a safe. a truck in, is a turkey but, it's a chicken stuffed in a dark stopped in a turkey. it's a multi layer foul feast.

but they give you a sense of the security blanket of this thing. and then the white house has random people washington ece with a thing stuffed in a grocery bag. what is a discrepancy between the way the cia in the house are treating this information in the way the white house is treating this information? what does the chasm suggest to you about whether we will ever find this thing again? >> i'm curious if in fact we ever will find it. the fact that the intelligence community has been looking at it sounds like for a couple of years, leads me personally to believe that we never will know what happens. but alex, i think this shows an oscar utter lack of understanding an absolute contempt by the former administration towards the national security of the united states of american. your listeners need to understand how much time and energy and money the u.s. intelligence community spends on the day in day out basis to try and recruit sources of information, developed sources of information, in places that are really hard to do that. like in russia, like in china,

like in cuba, like in iran. and two so cavalierly treat this i think cassidy hutchison said that mark meadows at some point yelled at her saying why is that in the safe? why don't you just keep it in your desk? and she responded, mark, this belongs in the scif. that sort of behavior is absolutely problematic. and alex, last thing, it's much as problematic because of the past damage it might have cost. every single one of our allies, every nation around the world is watching this as well. they are trying to determine if donald trump is elected to united states, what, if anything, are they going to choose to share with the united states? so this is damaging to national security, to the u.s., not just in the past but going forward for a long time. >> absolutely. such a great point. i do wonder what the potential penalty is for anyone involved in the disappearance of this binder. the last person seen with it is mark meadows. and cassidy hutchison offered i would say called comfort. this is quoting from her book.

i believe this is quoting from her testimony to the january six committee. i just know mr. meadows. he wouldn't have had it copied unless he did it on his own, speaking of the information. i don't think he knows how to use a coffee machine. the fact that mark meadows doesn't know how to use a xerox machine i suppose is some comfort, that this hasn't been distributed widely, but not enough for, i think, most onlookers to the saga. what would be the penalty for anybody involved in this? given the gravity of the breach, if you will? >> i think it depends on the circumstances. part of the issue, some folks are asking why hasn't mark meadows how spencer just to get the point of establishing probable cause to get a search warrant? the government has to demonstrate probable cause that there is information currently at the place to be searched. so in this case they would need something. it's not enough to say cassidy hutchison saw what she thought was the binder with mark

meadows. they would have to be somebody saying i was in his house last week and i saw this big binder and he showed me this classified document. so it is a high hurdle to get to the point of being able to obtain a search warrant. but certainly if somebody still have this information they would have to go through what do they know about what the material was in terms of his classification. do they believe it had been declassified by donald trump? there are a lot of elements of the crime that we need to be established. but if this was done with bad intent, these are the types of things that would've led to the loss of human agents life, another statute goes up to the death penalty. that's an extreme case, were somebody knowingly working for a foreign power would give up this information, but the fact of the matter is, regardless of whether or not a law was broken, the u.s. intelligence community has to assume that this material was compromised, and everything they do, sensitive sources and methods, technical techniques, human sources, they have to treat all of that as if it's been compromised and just there op adjust their

operations. it's not a stretch to say the potentially millions of dollars of damage have been done simply by the loss of this binder. >> and important human intelligence sources, potentially compromised. peter strzok, thank you for putting in a multiple perspective tonight. we really appreciated. >> thank you. >> coming up, we have jaw-dropping reporting from the new york times about how the supreme court came to overturn roe v. wade. when reporters on that story joins me next. stay with us. story joins me next. stay with us stay with us >>

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supreme court shortly after political broke the new's monday night, and unprecedented leak of an entire giraffe opinion and one of the courts most consequential cases saying the landmark decision should be overruled. >> we still do not know and may never know who leaked the draft for the decision, but it's set in motion a seismic shift in american politics and american health care. in a new bombshell report for the new york times, jodi kantor and adam lutak described how the court came to overturn roe v. wade. joining me now is adam attack, supreme court reporter for the new york times. whose byline on this impressive reporting on the behind the scenes deliberations at the supreme court. adam, thank you so much for being here. let's just get right to it, there is so much in here. one of the ways that struck me in which the way that the court wasn't truly truthful about the

way that they took up the dobbs case in the first place. can you talk more about that? >> this is a puzzle on the outside, look the core sitting on this case for months and months and months, maybe ten months after the report. it turns out based on our reporting, -- it's a secretive institution, that they had heard the case but not told the public about it, for a number of reasons, to put some distance from the rival amy coney barrett in the aftermath of the decision to avoid a compressed argument schedule to follow and track other cases. a quite unusual thing, that they do something that you ordinarily did not announce in public in order to kick it over to the next term, so that they don't do away with roe v. wade,

just months after they did, they look like an abortion protector, ruth bader ginsburg. >> you mentioned -- you reported that amy coney barrett was initially a sticking up tops but then last-minute, turns to a no vote. it really sounds like it's about optics for her. it's not necessarily some judicial standard, it's about the fact that she does not want to be seen as rushing into her new posts and throwing out row. is that a fair stutsman? >> i am not sure it's optics, because until we reported it, it was known that she had decided not to vote in favor of taking the case. i think it may be a sign. but what is for sure is that we reported here in the case with the bare minimum of four votes, all now conservatives, and every woman was on the other side. >> you talk about the sort of

engine behind taking up tabs, a person with the greatest seal to overturn roe v. wade, and that was undoubtedly sam veto. you talk a little bit about how in the term i think you guys use, he pre-gained the dobbs decision. can he talk more about what that actually practically meant? >> sure, justice alito has made it a lifelong paycheck of his from his, youth really, the do away with the right to abortion. and where first see circulates in the top meeting, ten minutes later, justice neil gorsuch joins, and then almost right away, amy coney barrett and clarence thomas join in a few days later. have not joints. that is a powerful indication, like a 98-page decision. i was able to digest right then that they had an advanced look

at the opinion. that is not heard unheard of. people occasionally pre circulate to their allies draft opinions, but it's not routine. it seemed to be part of a pattern of justice alito making this project and guiding it through the court to get to the ultimate decision, doing away with roe v. wade. >> it also raises some questions about who exactly the tops of decision to politico, as we talked about, a seismic moment in american politics. justice alito had reportedly had a history of leaking other big, controversial decisions, in some cases, to curry favor with conservatives outside the court. -- is one of them. should people be thinking about that as they think about who lead the dobbs decision in your reporting in and around alito's zeal to overturn roe? >> i am not going to accuse justice alito of being the leaker. she has said a couple of things. he has a good idea that he has

not disclosed to that is. presumably, he was not talking about himself. he also thinks that it can have come from the right side of the court, because he says, that endangered the lives of the conservative justices, because it is not law, of course, until the actual decision issued. he points to the fact that someone did try to show up, brett kavanaugh told us, apparently with the aim of -- so, justice alito rules out justice alito. we don't know the weaker. we don't know the motive so the leaker, but we know the effect of the, leak the effect of the leak was to lock in the five conservative votes and frustrate and attempt by not only to justice roberts but the liberal justice stephen prior, to try to forge color minds. after the leak decision, it becomes much harder, the chief justice, having worked on a

compromised of a concurring opinion, is wary of even sending it around the courts electronic communication system, because they don't know how it's been compromised. what the leak did, whatever the leaker, effectively was the luckin of the reset of the court in overruling roe. >> adam liptak of the new york times, it's an incredible piece of reporting on a very procedural process. thank you so much for everything you are doing here, reporting out, thank you for your time tonight. still ahead, the supreme court 's decision to abandon decades of precedent under bedrock principles of american life did not end with dobbs. we'll talk with slates mark joseph stern about how much more damage they have in store to do this term and beyond. that is next. that is next inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. i'm sholeh, 50 years or older? and i lost 75 pounds with golo. i went from a size 20 to a size 6.

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♪♪ vicks vapostick provides soothing, non-medicated vicks vapors. easy to apply for the whole family. vicks vapostick. - [speaker] at first, just leaving the house was hard. for steamy vicks vapors. - [speaker] but wounded warrior project helps you realize it's possible to get out there - [speaker] to feel sense of camaraderie again. - [speaker] to find the tools to live life better. - [narrator] through generous community support, we've connected warriors and their families with no cost physical and mental health services, legislative advocacy,

career assistance, and life skill training for 20 years, and we are just getting started. - [speaker] at first, just leaving the house was hard. - [speaker] but wounded warrior project helps you realize it's possible to get out there - [speaker] to feel sense of camaraderie again. - [speaker] to find the tools to live life better. - [narrator] through generous community support, we've connected warriors and their families with no cost physical and mental health services, legislative advocacy, career assistance, and life skill training for 20 years, and we are just getting started. 49% of americans say that they have trust and confidence in the united states supreme court. when bill clinton was president,

that number was 80%. the absolute nosedive and american confidence in this court, this year, and september, followed reports that justice clarence thomas and samuel alito had routinely received lavish gifts during vacations from conservative activists and came at a time on the court itself and it federal protection for reproductive choice and the practice of race conscious admission decisions and all but sanctioned discrimination against same-sex couples. this term report will make even more landmark decisions, including potentially, whether to impose further restrictions on abortion access and whether a federal case of donald trump can proceed. joining me now is the senior writer covering the courts and law for slate magazine. mark, thank you for joining me. first, let me get your reaction to the news new york times reporting and what stood out to you as a water that follows this closely? >> we expect loud rolling, or

shading and deal making from politicians in a cloak room, but what we saw from the supreme court justices deliberating on this decision was something else entirely. this looked a lot like draw, cynical partisan politics of the bases sorts. it was incredibly dishonest, poorly concealed, it's foes -- and as adam pointed out moments, ago that is almost unprecedented and suggests that the court did not trust the public to learn the truth about a decision-making process, because they have been so corrupted. i think that is one of many details that jumped out. this court is cloaked in scandal, cloaked in distress of the public, and is aggressively trying to change the law. the law of arrogance and little caution of how the public will perceive it. >> the arrogance, and that is

such an appropriate term here. even reporting on the court, as i am sure that you're aware, it's so challenging. right, there it's like there is no access to the behind the scenes deliberation, when these nine elected justices are making decisions with a massive impact for america's society. the subtext of this piece questions whether these judges should have the power they do and lifetime appointments that they do. the bedside vigil of justice ruth bader ginsburg is one of many examples of how questionable these arrangements are. do you think that we're at an inflection point here? >> so long that they're kept roughly in tune with public opinion, people aren't asking those questions. what happens now is that the court lurched to the right, far away from the medium voter, and people are warning for the first time in their lives, why did we allow these nine unelected politicians and robes

to have the final say over essentially every major political and legal question of our time, especially when they were appointed in such a random fashion. every other country thinks we are crazy for allowing the -- of mortality decide which way the court will lean. i will say, congress has shown some interest in starting to increase regulation of the court, with republicans blockading all of those bills. it will not go anywhere soon, but this is the type of thing that congress could theoretically try to stop to, the secrecy behind the scenes, the secrecy of the votes of picking up cases. a lot of ethics professors have said that congress should make that stop. congress should require the votes to be public. congress should force the justices to feel what is going on behind the scenes, because that is the birmingham they can do to be transparent with the power that they will. of course, the sport has shown no interest in doing this. >> as an example at that, the

mississippi attorney general who argues dobbs in the courts is a former law clerk. for the dobbs case, he goes to a reunion dinner with thomas. that's like, maybe, grounds for recusal in any other universe? >> and it's not just that. he first filed a case solely to move the goalposts to 15 weeks, saying, okay, we can start banning abortion and 15 weeks. he goes to this west virginia resort, with clarence and ginni thomas. he goes back to mississippi and says, i change my mind. now, we should ask the court to overturn roe v. wade entirely and not bother with 15 weeks. what happened in the interim? we obviously don't know. maybe adam will have reporting on that, but i think the key assumption is that obviously, something sleazy went on behind the scenes. given the justices unscrupulous behavior, it's reasonable to draw those conclusions. >> mark joseph stern, thank you as always for your time and analysis, sir. i appreciate it. that is our show for tonight. now, it