going to, you it's either a

december 16th, i'm ali velshi. we begin this morning with a justice served. a pair of election workers were terrorized by don trump supporters. yesterdaya ry awarded ruby freeman and shaye moss a total of 100 and $48 million in damages as a result of their civil this defamation lawsuit against really giuliani who repeatedly and falsely accused him of carrying out a elaborate election fraud scheme without producing a shred of evidence that could withstand scrutiny. the verdict is a new low for giuliani, who rose up the ranks of new york politics early in his career, but has been on a downward spiral for the better part of the past two decades. he's gone from being americas mere to a codefendant indicted alongside his longtime pal donald trump in fulton county's sprawling r.i.c.o. case. on top of, that giuliani faces a number of other lou legal troubles. yesterday' wondered 48 million-dollar verdict pulsing

comparison to the 1.3 billion dollars that dominion voting systems to seeking and damages in its own a defamation offshoot against him. giuliani is also named as a defendant in smartmatic's 2.7 billion dollar lawsuit against fox news and other trump world figures who spread baseless conspiracy theories linking their voting machines to election fraud. he's also facing a lawsuit filed by a former employee who accused him of sexual assault, harassment, wage theft, and other misconduct. it's a costly road ahead for giuliani, who has quote, neared a financial breaking point according to a new york times report from this summer. it is a remarkable reversal of fortune for someone who used to make millions and speaking fees alone, and once owned six homes and was a member of 11 country clubs. but now, giuliani is selling his new york city apartment for six point $1 million, and he has resorted to hawking collectible coins, vitamin supplements, and cigars on his podcast. giuliani's financial troubles

have made him even more reliant on donald trump, whose campaign is have to pay off some of giuliani's many expenses. trump himself has even hosted a $100,000 per person fund-raiser to help giuliani pay his legal bills. it is, after, all police that the former dilkon -- president can do to who so fervently supported his big lie, and you made the parking lot of philadelphia's four season total landscaping into something of a national landmark. and the latest round of troubles will likely have people asking once again, what happened to america's mayor? his leadership in the days and weeks following 9/11 earned him international praise and renowned, but time magazine honored him as 2001's person of the year. queen elizabeth even bestowed upon him and honorary knighthood for those actions. giuliani rode that wave of goodwill as far as he could. his lawyer alluded to it in court this week, pleading with the jury that his client is quote, a man who did great things. but the legend of rudy giuliani

often covers up the man that the -- new york civil liberties unit called an authoritarian, anti-democratic bully. his reputation as a tough on crime mayor who cleanup new york city is often inflated and inaccurate. historians point out that crime in new york began trending downward in the mid 1980s during ed cautious tenure, which continue during david ink it's time as mayor in the early 1990s before giuliani became mayor. s beforebut it's true that giuls tough on crime. he ordered the nypd to crack down a low level offenses. giuliani's time as mayor is closely linked to the rise of the stop-and-frisk policy, which was deemed unconstitutional as it was applied in new york because of how disproportionately it's angle that young black and hispanic men. giuliani's response to the killings of unarmed black man like a badillo and patrick -- by nypd officers in the late 90s further enraged the black

community. if you view giuliani through this more comprehensive lens of his life and career, then it isn't so confounding how or why america's mayor could be so egregiously wrong about jumping to conclusions that a pair of black women working late in the election site were passing around a usb flash drive like it was quote, vials of heroin or cocaine, and quote. rudy giuliani is the same man he has always been. now he is just broke, desperate, and can't pay forgetful bay city anymore. join me now is lisa rubin. she's an msnbc legal analyst, a former litigator, and the perfect person to walk us through this and most legal events. lisa, thank you for being here. let's talk about the trial, the award, and what happens next to rudy giuliani, particularly in this case. there were some speculation that the award would not be as big as the plaintiffs were asking for, much bigger. >> it was much bigger. and that is really, ali, due to what we call punitive damages.

there are two categories of damages here that the jury could have awarded. when it's compensatory damages. those are meant to compensate for the injuries that the plaintiffs suffers. and then there's a different category of punitive damages, and there's philamena two things. i want to punish the wrongdoer, in the second is to send a message to other people to deter that same kind of conduct in the future by suggesting that if you do something like this, and you do it willfully, as purposefully as rudy giuliani seems to have done, it this could be on the other side of the trial for you as well, and that is where the damages here were at their apex, right? at $75 million in punitive damages for ruby freeman and shaye moss. >> there were a couple of categories that rudy giuliani's defense fell into. one was, i said what i said, it is honest, it is what it is. too is that i did not say it, and three was, i could not have foreseen the damage that would have occurred to these woman as a result of what i did.

i don't, was it a weak legal strategy, or -- evidence that he said what he said? >> neither. rudy giuliani was not eligible to put on a defense out of this trial. there was a default judgment or would've against him in august because we in the two plus years that this case was being litigated, rudy giuliani essentially refused to participate in discovery. one of the things that ruby and shaye's lawyers try to understand what benefit that rudy got from the defamation, right? did you make money off of the lies that you told about our clients and so far as they were trying to show that they wanted information about rudy's businesses. rudy refused to give up that information and made all sorts of excuses as to why he couldn't. that went on for a series of months until the folks of protector mark russi finally said, judge, he is so -- as a litigator that the only solution is for you to judge him liable for his failure to

even participate in this. and so when the case went to trial, there are no defenses for rudy. it was a damages only proceeding which is why it was so fast and why nothing that rudy giuliani could've said for himself would have added to the jury's understanding of this case. >> his defense lawyers argue it was that the punishment should fit the crime, and that by the way, he could not have foreseen what was going to happen as a result of the things that he did. tell me how that fits in with the damages that we finally saw. e how that fits in wit the damage okay, one of the s that the plaintiffs lawyers did very successfully hear we show that willie giuliani did not just say this, once he did not to say this twice. he said it again and again and in multiple forum, and every time he petered the story, it seemed to have gotten worse. for example, you mentioned earlier in the show that he essentially compared the two women here, ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss exchanging a ginger mint under the table as if they were drug dealers exchanging a vial of

heroin or cocaine. i was not something that rudy giuliani just said as a toss off. so the repetition was certainly part of their strategy all along. >> what happens now, can he appeal? >> he can appeal, and he can appeal the default judgment, but again, because his refusal to participate in the case was so widespread, pervasive, and long-standing, i don't expect that pete will be successful on merits. and the other thing is that, in the usual course, a little bit who wants to appeal a judgment like this has to post a bond. usually, you post a bond in the event of the award. if rudy giuliani is indeed on as part of financial times as you and i and many reporters understand him to be, curry whether he gets the kind of money that would allow him to go through that appellate process. >> and how do you collect on this, from a guy like this who is widely reported to be broke? >> you get online, let's start there. because rudy giuliani, as mentioned, already has creditors. he owes money not only to other

people that he's currently in litigation with, but more importantly, he owes money to attorneys that he has not paid, he likely has contractors who have not been paid, but more importantly he's going to have to have a fire sale of some of the assets if this judgment stands. we already noted that his apartment at six point $1 million is on the market. one of the things that the folks that represent ruby and shaye are going to have to do though with diligence in the coming months hall is discovered where those assets are in addition to the apartment. that is something that they have been trying to do and successfully for many months already, and that is a chase that will continue into the future. >> so thank you for not just this, but rather me throughout this entire thing. because for us not, lawyers this can be a little confusing. there is appreciate you. >> i always appreciate being here. >> lisa reuben, msnbc legal analyst. we will continue the conversation right after the break with somebody wrote the book on giuliani. andrew chrisman is up next. this is velshi. lshi jen x is planning a summer in portugal

with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment. three jens getting ahead with chase. solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org

today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar

you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. let's continue our

conversation about the rise and fall of rudy giuliani with somebody who knows the former mayor very well. andrew kirtzman it's the president of kirtzman strategies, a public communications firm, and the author of the rise and fall of giuliani, and part of the city. andrew, good to have you here. thank you for being with us. you are now we're talking at commercial break about the rise and fall of you will about rudy giuliani. this guy was america's mayor, and we can talk about this in a minute. whatever people didn't like about what he did as mayor, towards the, and he did -- then he ran for president 2008, and then you remind me that, for the better part of the, year he was the front runner. he was the obvious republican candidate for president for the better part of a year, and you seem to point to that as where things turned for him. >> i think i if you could put

something on a graph of the catastrophic fall of rudy giuliani, it would begin in 2008. so after 9/11, he was more popular than the pope according to polls. he casten, he was worth -- this company was worth $100 million i made over five years. >> security consultancy. >> security consultancy. he was just a beloved person, and not just in america, but across the globe. and so it also seemed logical that he would run for president and when, but it flamed out and it was a terrible, terrible humiliation. you have that race after a year from the front runner, and he left after just four weeks with one delegate, and thus started this desperation to regain his relevance, which eventually led him into the arms of donald trump.

>> and where do you -- this desperation for all events relevance, he managed to feed that for all of his career as a prosecutor, as mayor, post mayor, a famous guy who pulled well, and the next obvious president, and then all of a sudden he hit the wall in 2008. >> right, exactly. for my book, i interviewed giuliani's ex-wife, judith giuliani, he told me that the secret, the key to rudy giuliani was a need for relevance, and then what happened after the 2008 race was that as 9/11 halo it was gone. he was no longer the most beloved person. he was kind of a loser, and he started taking on sketchy clients around the country, started making inflammatory provocative comments on television. there was a desperation to the quality of what he was doing, trying to kind of regain what he had, and also the financial

benefits he had after 9/11, and then came at donald trump. trump needed giuliani in thousand 16. he had no political kind of infrastructure, and giuliani needed trump, because he needed to get back to relevance. >> tell me about, what is the same about giuliani from all those years that you covered him as you see now? the sort of bullying tactics, the meaner side of things. >> sure, i covered giuliani back at city hall, and so i watched giuliani as mayor, and i thought he was enormously effective, anonymously effective. but part and parcel of his success was an authoritarian style of. ruining reputations is what rudy giuliani does. his career is more about going after the prosecutor and ruining the reputations of his targets. he was a bully, he was relentless and remorseless, just as he was in the case of the two election workers.

anything that stood in his way, he could not care less about the repercussions. >> at this point, he has 148 million dollar judgment against him. he has other debts, he has other cases that could result in a much bigger judgment. what is your sense of his financial situation, do you? no >> it was tenuous at best before the hundred and 50 million dollar, look, he is a ruined man, right? he is probably headed towards bankruptcy. he has been indicted in georgia. he is an unindicted coconspirator in d.c.. he's facing potential jail. the arc of the giuliani rise and fall story is almost complete. he could in that story in a prison cell. >> it's remarkable how this is happened, andrew. thank you for joining us, we really appreciate it. i suspect there are a whole lot of people pulling your book out today or buying it anew, both of your books, to learn more about rudy giuliani. andrew if kirtzman the president of kirtzman strategies, the author of

giuliani, the rise and tragic fall of america's mayor. and rudy giuliani, and part of the city. coming, up white house said negotiators are working through the weekend to try to come up with a compromise deal to send aid to israel and ukraine. republicans have said that they want a broader border security deal in a state for their votes on the military aid val. coming up next, we will talk about what is at stake and what could still derail that deal. you are watching velshi. e watching velshi.

(carolers) ♪ iphone 15 pro, your husband deserves it! ♪ (mom) carolers? to tell me you want a new iphone? a better plan is verizon. (vo) it's your last chance to turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. students...

students of any age, from anywhere. using our technology to power different ways of learning. so when minds grow, opportunities follow. ♪ just over two months, ukraine will enter its third year of war with russia, and time and resources are running out of the country's military resistance to russia. just when ukraine needs it most, there are signs that u.s. support is waning. president volodymyr zelenskyy travel to washington, d.c. this week to press lawmakers for more military aid, but he left empty-handed, a shift after nearly two years of relatively steady bipartisan support for american lawmakers. republicans in congress are holding up a 110 billion dollar aid package, mostly for ukraine,

but some to israel, and other national security needs, unless democrats agree to a border security package of restrictions. republicans say they will only vote for the aid if it is paired with new restrictions at the u.s. mexico border. the house adjourned for christmas recess with plans to return in the new year to figure this all out. the senate, however, delayed its holiday break to try to hammer out a deal. if ukraine uses this war because u.s. aid dries, up the consequences will reach far beyond ukraine. need it would be weekend, western allies will start to question how trustworthy and reliable the united states truly is if he could not deliver with this crucial, eight and not only would putin become more confident and more powerful, but so too with the leaders of other autocratic nations like iran, north korea, and china. the senate minority leader chuck schumer said that putin is, quote mocking our resolve, and it's too much on the line for ukraine, for america, for western democracy to throw in the towel right now.

on the other side of the, break i will dig deeper into the issue of ukraine funding, and we will talk about u.s. funding for israel as well with ambassador bill taylor and stephen koch on the council of foreign relations. do not go anywhere. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. joining me now is bill

taylor, former united states ambassador to ukraine from 2016 2009. he's also the vice president of russia and europe for the u.s. institute of peace. steven cook joins us as well. he is a senior fellow for

middle east and africa studies at the council on foreign affairs, columnist of foreign policy magazine, and author of the end of ambition, america's past, present, and future in the middle east. i cannot think of two more perfect as to talk to about the matters we are facing. they're all sort of connected, because there's an element of both of these major wars that we're in right now, involved in right now, that center on the united states congress. so, bill let me start with you. for our viewers who don't have a good understanding of why this bill at this point in time this funding for ukraine is so critical to, this because we have been funding ukraine for a long time, and not only the 30 nato countries, but 20 more countries are involved in it. and so why is this particular juncture so important for the ukraine war? >> this is so important because all of the assistance that you just described from the night stateside, which as you point, out has been matched overall by europeans and others, but our assistant has been appropriated,

and it is now running down very close to zero in terms of what we can provide in new weapons systems. the ukrainians count on, need, have absolute need for u.s. weapons, u.s. ammunition, u.s. support, and that funding is down now to very low levels, very low levels, and that is why this particular package is particularly important for all the reasons that you stayed. earlier >> stephen, let's talk about the other issue. a slightly different situation with israel. there is money to israel in this package that is also being held up, but there are number of democratic senators led by maryland senator van holland who are asking for conditions to be put on aid that goes from the united states to israel. and there's been a lot of that overtime, a lot of aid, and they're saying that as the white house is trying to encourage israel to do things in a way that limit civilian casualties, they would like strings attached to the money that is going.

there >> yeah, this is something that has crept into the democratic party's approach to the question of israel. it's not just senator van hollen, but isn't of colleagues who are also interest and conditioning, eight and this is something that came up in the last presidential election cycle, and among democratic party candidates. but it is something that is going to be discussed in the senate. it's unlikely that conditions are going to be attached to israel's aid, if only because there are other democrats ago support it as well as republicans who don't support it. i would point out that there are number of conditions on aid, military aid to israel and as well to other countries, but they rarely followed, and i think that if there is a conditionality, picking the middle of the, war these really are likely to ignore it. >> bill, let's talk about that with respect to ukraine. generally speaking, and i don't know that ukraine americans would associate the eighth

ukraine to restrictions, but there are some key. once america doesn't want ukraine using long range missiles or aircraft in a way that, i don't have to characterize, it in a way that sounds like it's an offensive war on russian territory as opposed to a defensive war. volodymyr zelenskyy has often stated that he feels that that is a limitation that he would rather not have. >> he'd rather not have, it but he has worked around it, because he is using his own weapons, weapons that he, the ukrainians, are making and providing themselves. so they can use those longer range weapons, and they've been pretty effective on specific military targets inside russia. they have used our weapons and u.s. weapons and nato weapons in crimea, which of course part of ukraine, and other occupied territories. and on the defensive, offensive business, you're exactly. right it's very clear who invaded whom. the russians invaded the

ukrainians, the ukrainians are defending themselves, and in order to defend themselves, they just have a single goal, and that is to move the russians, push the russians, and get the russians out of their country and that is what they are trying to do. let's talk about this as a release of the middle east, stephen. the idea of how this works being prosecuted from day one, the united states and joe biden were very supportive of israel and joe biden won in the first week, don't make the post 9/11 mistakes that america made. now he is warning netanyahu that he is making those mistakes, and losing world sport. you can measure that by number of countries that have decided that they want to take a harder line with israel, including at the united nations. what is your sense of how this is evolving, because the united states or the bulwark. they are the stalwart supporter of israel in the world. tell me how you see this unfolding. >> certainly, the president

changes public rhetoric on the prosecution of the conflict, although i should point out the national security advisor was in jerusalem and sort of papering over those differences, at least publicly. privately? the administration maintains that it is counseling israel to do its very best to protect civilian lives, but i think that this is mostly at a rhetorical level. we would see a fundamental shift and the united states if the president for example started to actually condition weapon systems to the israelis, but it doesn't seem that he's prepared to do that at all. >> bill, what do you make of the visit last week. what a big deal. the president of ukraine was with the president of the united states to make the case to those who would not give this aid that they are seeking. unbelievably, zelenskyy left without a deal. that's big guns, bringing vladimir zelenskyy to congress and to the white house. do you think that it had an impact, do you think that zelenskyy being there did

something, and you think that the senate, which continues to meet on this issue, but the negotiators are meeting, but do you think that there are some likelihood that this aid to ukraine will occur soon? >> i do, i do, and i think that you are right, presents lynskey came, top, to the whole senate, spoke to the new speaker, talk to the american people therapist conference, and had good sessions. and you are, right they do not go home with a deal. that is, as you know, that is not what happened on the day. however, he did make the case for support to ukraine, and he made it to republicans and democrats, and they listened. and you are exactly right. this working over the weekend and into next week in order to try to get a deal to provide ukraine with what they need in order to continue to fight all next year. to hold off the russians and indeed try to push them back.

i think he did what he aim to do. >> there's a study of conference -- contrasts with vladimir zelenskyy, some people describe him as the moderate wouldn't churchill, and netanyahu, who struggling's and country. he's one of a handful of leaders in the world listen into to remain in office, largely to avoid prosecution, although he's having trouble doing that now. his popularity, unlike zelenskyy's within israel, is dropping like a rock. tell me how much of this disagreement between israel and biden and not your who has to do with netanyahu's political position in israel at the moment? it's clear that netanyahu is in political trouble. it's also clear that he wants to use this public disagreement with president biden to run against the united states, who offered its full support of israel, but he is going to run against essentially president biden's plans for the day after, which is to revitalize the palestinian authority and push

for a two-state solution. that will be netanyahu's platform when the israelis get down into elections, which will likely come and a number of months. he is in a desperate political situation, and he is going to appeal very strongly to not just israel's right, but to the entire country, which is still reeling from the october 7th attacks, and there's been a rightward lurch among the israeli electorate. it's hard to imagine netanyahu being elected, but this is a politician with ten lives. >> yes, it's a bad business predicting what netanyahu will next or what his political fortunes. our guys, thank you very much. it's great to speak to both of you. bill taylor is a former united states ambassador to ukraine. steven cook is a senior fellow at the council on foreign relations, author of the upcoming, book the end of ambition, america's past, present, and feature the middle east. coming, up get more proof that

exceptions to draconian abortion bans are in allusion. how the story of one texas woman's personal tragedy shed a light on the reality of post roe america and how republicans will expand the antiabortion regime across the country if given the chance. the chance woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours.

(carolers) ♪ iphone 15 pro, your husband deserves it! ♪ chase. (mom) carolers? to tell me you want a new iphone? a better plan is verizon. (vo) it's your last chance to turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. the subway series is taking your favorite to the next level! like the #20. the elite chicken and bacon ranch. built with rotisserie-style chicken and double cheese.

i love what i'm seeing here. that's some well-coached chicken. you done, peyton? the subway series just keeps gettin' better. - i got the cabin for three days. it's gonna be sweet! the subway series what? i'm 12 hours short. - have a fun weekend. - ♪ unnecessary action hero! unnecessary. ♪ - was that necessary? - no. neither is a blown weekend. with paycom, employees do their own payroll so you can fix problems before they become problems. - hmm! get paycom and make the unnecessary, unnecessary. - see you down the line. since the fall of roe and

the end of the constitutional right to abortion in this country, we have borne witness just story after horrifying story of women and girls being denied access to desperately needed health care. antiabortion forces promised that in new wave of draconian abortion bans will include exceptions for victims of sexual assault or for those facing dangerous health complications. but that false promise was quickly exposed, as women came for to tell their stories of life in post roe america. stories of women hemorrhaging in parking lots, forced to wait until their lives were in immediate enough danger that doctors were not afraid to treat them. stories of women being forced to carry nonviolence east to

term. the story of a child sexual assault victims forced across state lines and then the out-of-state doctor who helped her coming underestimation for doing so. stories like these are playing out every day, but one of them caught the nations attention this month, because the woman at the center of it chose to fight. kate cox was a 31-year-old pregnant woman who learned that her fetus had a lethal genetic condition and that is one that is almost always fatal at birth if not before, and then continuing to carry the pregnancy could endanger her own health, and so she sought legal innervation to terminate her pregnancy in her home state of texas. a texas judge initially ruled and cates favor, but texas attorney general ken paxton appealed, threatening all three hospitals were cates hospital doctor worked and walking the order. on monday, the state supreme court ruled against kate, who by then had already traveled outside of texas to obtain an abortion. imagine having the top law enforcement official in your state personally intervene in your medical care to prevent

you from getting the treatment that your doctors say that you need. this, to be clear, is the natural and intended application of texas is cruel antiabortion regime. but it's also so indefensible that the states two united states senators, both republicans, ted cruz and john cornyn, sidestepped questions about the case. make no mistake though. this is the republican agenda. if given the, chance republicans will turn the whole country into texas. they've already written a 15-week national abortion ban. they will not be safe states if republicans come to power again. as we've seen in the case of kate cox in so many others, there's no viable legal solution to the undoing of abortion rights in america. pregnant people's lives are in danger. the so-called exceptions meant to protect them or a deliberately vaguely written illusion that many may as well not exist. the courts are not protecting them, and the antiabortion movement continues to press more and more for more extreme

restrictions, from banning abortion medication to criminalizing the stick crossing state lines for abortion access. the only way to get americans out of this dystopian post-roe world is to do what should have been done decades ago. to gather up the political will to pass actual laws protecting women's health care. when we come back, i will ask two of the smartest woman i know about what needs to happen and why it has not already been done. in just a moment and joined by michelle goldberg, the pulitzer prize-winning author of the means of reproduction, and robert marty, the executive director of the west alabama winston and the author of a new handbook for a post roe america. we will be back.

i'm joined by michelle goldberg, the author of the means of reproduction, and -- the director of the west alabama winston and the author of a new handbook for a post roe america. good morning to both of, you thank you for being with us. robin, when dobbs came down antiabortion activists downplayed concerns that these new bans would actually endanger women's lives. they've gone to things like medical advances, and these exceptions that would be made. people like, you because you and i talked very shortly after they failed in alabama, you always believed what the true intentions were. talk to me about that in the naivete that we have all had around what happened when dobbs fell, monroe, fell sorry. >> thank you for having me, on and also, i think not everybody was naive about what would

happen when this occurred. we knew exactly what would happen. this was coming, and we were just waiting for it to be reported. and the reason took this long to get here is because there is an immense of amount of privilege that comes from being able to fight this. kate cox, in my opinion, is a hero, because i myself have had a miscarriage. i know it's like to have something inside of you that you need a doctor to remove, and that before of sitting there for days, in her case, much longer than that in order to proceed, that she bought this was extraordinarily brave. but we knew that exceptions didn't exist. we knew that it required a doctor who was willing to do. it it requires and your body hospital. it requires the ability to wait in to try to fight this out, and we knew this was never, ever going to be an exception that people would be able to use. >> michelle, i was speaking to one of the attorneys who is representing kate cox's case in texas after she left, and i asked him, why bother at this

point, and he said, because we have to know the outcome of what this law really means, and i said, we know the out of what this law means. it always comes down the same way, and he said that is why people have to realize that this has to be dealt with politically. >> i think it's really interesting, because when dobbs, for this -- one row, fell these horror stories charted trickling out and there was a conspiracy theory that we start hearing from the antiabortion movement which is that these are doctors misinterpreting the law or pro choice forces are sowing confusion about the law and making hospitals afraid to intervene in cases where there is an obvious subsection, and that was always a lie, and what you saw here and what you've seen repeatedly in texas is pro-choice, lawyers lawyers from the center for reproductive rights, go into court to try to clarify what exemptions actually exist if

any of these exemptions are workable. and to be clear, if there were workable exemptions it would rebound to the benefit i think of antiabortion forces, because it would make these laws more politically powerful, but nevertheless, the antiabortion movement does not want workable exemptions, because it would require deferring to doctors, recommendations, or doctors decision-making over politicians. and so what you have seen again and again's lawyers and pro-choice activists trying to get some sort of clarity on when it is possible to intervene and the antiabortion movement refusing to give them that clarity. and so under those circumstances, ken paxton wrote a letter after there was a judge who authorized this abortion, ken paxton related to spells where it might take place, saying that the court order would not protect them

from possible felony charges. but under the circumstances, what, doctor will hospital is going to air on the side of -- >> after they actually have a letter from the attorney general? that is the wild part. can paxton is the attorney general of texas and then interesting character onto his own. but robin, when you an iron alabama, we discussed the idea that there are attorney generals across the country, in particular the south, who have signaled these kinds of things, right? and in ken paxton's case, he wrote a letter to the three hospitals with a doctor who is dealing with kate cox was affiliated, but in alabama, you have an attorney general who has sort of indicated that he's definitely trying to make a case out of somebody. he will come after people who what they believe to be the spirit of the letter of the law. to be th >> for, shorten as wire clinic as well as other clinics have done our lawsuit in order to get clarity as to why whether we allowed to provide support

or information about where these legal issues exist. we still have not had a response. this case has still not been heard in any way, shape, or form, and i'm not exaggerating when i say that people are struggling in potentially dying out here. we have seen the maternal mortality rates have gone up, we've seen that the instant mortality rates have gone up, and people are hurting. we see them every day at the clinic. so having -- this leaning over your head and having nobody actually do the action that is necessary in order to get clarity, that is harming everybody to the point at where there may need to be direct action in order to finally get things moving forward and find out with the lines are and what the appetite is four arrests. >> and so michelle, to the point of clarity, that is what kate cox was seeking. that is what actually the supreme court of texas gave, her and in many of the states, conservative cates with conservative courts, you're not getting abortion. if you're doctors as you need in abortion, you're probably

not getting an abortion. if you're fetus is at risk, you're not getting an abortion. if you're going to die, you may not be getting an abortion. at that point, what do people need to do? >> i think it was depends on what you mean by people. >> society. those of us think that these are draconian laws that we were duped into thinking would be something else. >> like, robin i don't think all of us were duped, but i think what you need is a national codification of roe v. wade, and, anytime you need state-by-state legal action and also with some kind of federal action that, and the biden administration has tried to do some of this to clarify the hospitals are in violation of their responsibility if they turned over someone who is an acute medical distress and

needs a medical termination. >> robin, to the extent that we have to get, that that is a heck of a hill to climb because if the difficulties in getting the codification of abortion passed in the united states senate. it could be done in the house, but this is, this has been motivating in the past midterm elections, an off year elections, and special elections, and in referendum around the country. people who don't even identify as being supporters of these rights don't want rights taken away from them and unusual way, they don't rise takeaway from them at all. >> agreed. and i think that one of the things that we need to be prepared for is that we have now seen how so-called exceptions have played out. the next thing is going to be the we will not arrest the person who had the abortion, because we already knew that they were lying about the ability for people to get exceptions when they are in the law. we know that the next thing

that they are lying about is punishing the person who's getting the abortion. we've seen laws and oklahoma, and we've seen a law in alabama that was actually going to pull that protection. so that is where they're going next. when we say, you did not expect exceptions to not be, real and here they, are also saying now that they are going to arrest people who get portions. be prepared for that. no, that and vote knowing that, because we can change this. the only thing that will fix what is down here in the south is a federal law. in the south michelle, support for abortion is at the highest level since the 1970s, since roe was versus tab list. according to a wall street journal parole, 55% americans believe a pregnant should be able to obtain any abortion for any reason. nine and ten people support abortion in cases of sexual assault, incest, or when it women's health is in danger. how do you explain the discrepancy between these numbers and what they're

talking about an alabama, what kate cox is dealing with in texas, and across the south? >> they are two different things. i do think that there are probably some southern states where those numbers are little bit different when we're talking about nationwide, but more significantly, and i have said this over know very, again if you think about the biggest crisis in american politics as being minority rule in the failure of democracy and various steps that the rate has taken to restrict voting, to entrench its power even when it loses the electoral majorities, you that in state legislatures or and presidential elections, certainly you have the radical disparity between the electorate and the makeup of the senate where you have the small states that are hugely disproportionate, and so minority rule is a requirement

of abortion bans because as we see over and over again, when you put this stuff to straight referenda, people are very clear about the sort of laws that they want, but you also saw in ohio, and every step, the gerrymandering legislature tried to support the will of the people and continues to try to support the will of the people even after a referendum whose result was crystal clear. i think this -- >> go ahead -- >> it harkens back to -- let me put this on really quickly, because i empty, this isn't how the south works. derek is no different when it comes to how people feel about abortion in the north and in the south. we have done our polling down here. we have seen in our states that 60% of the people in alabama believe that abortion should be completely legal in the first trimester. we are just not allowed to vote. when we had that mississippi personhood referendum back in 2011, 60% of people voted