see over and over again, when you put this stuff to straight referenda, people are very clear about the sort of laws that they want, but you also saw in ohio, and every step, the gerrymandering legislature tried to support the will of the people and continues to try to support the will of the people even after a referendum whose result was crystal clear. i think this -- >> go ahead -- >> it harkens back to -- let me put this on really quickly, because i empty, this isn't how the south works. derek is no different when it comes to how people feel about abortion in the north and in the south. we have done our polling down here. we have seen in our states that 60% of the people in alabama believe that abortion should be completely legal in the first trimester. we are just not allowed to vote. when we had that mississippi personhood referendum back in 2011, 60% of people voted down

personhood. every state has the same positive feelings towards letting the people make their own choices about their bodies, whether it's north or south. i just need to make sure it's understood, it's because we can't vote. it's because they have changed how the campaigns work down here, how the legislation works down here. it's not well. >> all right, we're going to dig deeper into that to get a good understanding of how it works. thank you, robin. michelle is a columnist of the new york times, offers of the means of reproduction, sex, power in the future the word, and robert maher served -- west falmouth and author of the new handbook for a post roe america. still, ahead the downfall of rudy giuliani, from america's made a to -- a long tie donald trump in fulton county sprawling r.i.c.o. case. now, he's been ordered to pay 100 and $48 million in damages to two election workers who he defamed. then, white house and senate negotiators are at work this weekend, trying to come up with a deal to send military aid to ukraine and israel. efforts that were once bipartisan, but, now

republicans are demanding action on border security in exchange for their support. we'll talk about what's at stake in both of those wars and why immigration reform has been such a thorny issue in washington. another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ good morning. it's saturday, december the 16th. i'm ali velshi. we began this morning with just a search for a ir of election workers who were defamed by america's mayor and terrorized by donald trump's supporters. yesterday, a jury awded ruby freeman and shaye moss and the number of $148 million in damages as a result of their civil defamation lawsuit against rudy giuliani, who repeatedly and falsely accused them of carrying out an elaborate election fraud scheme without ever producing a shred of evidence that could withstand scrutiny. the verdict is a new low for giuliani, quickly rose up the ranks to do your politics early in his career, but it's without a downward spiral for the bladder of two decades.

he's gone for being americas mayor to a codefendant, dangling alongside his longtime pal, donald trump in fulton county's sprawling regal case. on top of, that giuliani still faces a number of their legal troubles. yesterday's 148 million-dollar verdict pales in comparison to the 1.3 billion dollars that to minion voting systems is seeking in damages in its own defamation lawsuit against him. giuliani is also named as a defendant in smart maddox 2.7 billion dollar lawsuit against fox news and other trump world figures, who spread baseless conspiracy theories linking their voting machines to election fraud. he's also facing a lawsuit filed by a former employee, who accused him of sexual assault, harassment, wage theft, and other misconduct. it's a costly road ahead for giuliani, who has quote, never, neared financial breaking points, according to the new york times reporting from this summer. it's a remarkable reversal of fortunes for someone who used to make millions in speaking fees alone.

once owned six homes, and was a member of 11 country clubs. now, giuliani is selling his new york city apartment for six point $1 million, and he's resorted to talking collectible coins, vitamin supplements, and cigars on his podcast. giuliani's financial troubles have made him more reliant on trump, whose campaign has helped to pay off some of giuliani's many expensive. trump himself has hosted a 100,000 dollar per person fund-raiser to help the former mayor pay his legal bills. it is, after, all the least the former president can do for someone who so fervently supported his big lie. it would be the parking lot of philadelphia's four seasons total landscaping two something of a national landmark. giuliani's latest round of troubles will likely have people asking once again, what happened to america's mayor? his competent leadership in the days and weeks immediately following 9/11, urging international praise and renown. time magazine honored him as 2001% of the year. queen elizabeth, even bestowed upon him and honorary knighthood for his actions.

giuliani rode that wave of goodwill, as far as he could. his lawyer even alluded to it in court this week, pleading with the jury his client disco, a man who did great things. but the legend of rudy giuliani offer covers up the reality of the man and director of the new york civil liberties union once called quote, and authoritarian, anti-democratic bubbly. it's reputation at a tough on crime mayor who cleaned new york city is often inflated and inaccurate. historians point out the crime in new york began trending downward in the mid 1980s, during edcouch's tenure, which continued during david denkins time as mayor in the early 1990s, before rudy giuliani became mayor. but it is true giuliani was tough on crime. he ordered the nypd to crack down on the level offenses, and giuliani's time as mayor is closely linked to the rise of the stop-and-frisk policy, which eventually was deemed unconstitutional as it was applied in new york because of how disproportionately it singled out young, black,

hispanic man. giuliani's insensitive response to the killings of unarmed black men, like amid the yellow and patrick tourist law, by nypd officers in the late 1990s, further in rigged the black community. if you view giuliani from the more comprehensive lens of his life and career, then, it isn't so confounding how or why america's mayor could be so egregiously wrong about jumping to conclusions that a pair of black women working late at an election site or passing around the u.s. beef last drive like it was, quote, vials of heroin or cocaine. rudy giuliani is the same man he's always been. now, he's just broke, desperate, and can't pay for publicity anymore. i'm joined now by tara palmer, the senior political correspondent for pop news in the host of the podcast, someone's got to win. if somebody's gotta win, there's melissa redmon, thought former fulton county deputy district attorney and msnbc legal analyst. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. melissa, you and i have been

following this closely about how this is going to turn out. let's talk about the trial, in so far as it was really about the damages, and the decision-making the jury had to face and the actual outcome. this is bigger than most people expected. >> right. almost three times as much as the plaintiffs or initially asking for. so, they ask that the jury sent theresa message with their verdict, and they did. that almost 100 $50 million. -- does nothing ability to pay it, is something that remains to be seen, but they certainly did something message with that verdict yesterday. >> tara, giuliani is continuing to serve his claims of fraud are support-able. what's that about? it's been proved in a court of law that they're not. it's going to be tried again in the georgia case, the actual

criminal case. why is rudy giuliani behaving the way he is? why does he say one thing in court and one thing outside of court? >> i know. it's interesting because his lawyers in court say he is apologetic and he recognizes that it was false. elise, that's what they're saying. when he's on the courthouse steps, he's defiant, he is unapologetic, and what he's really doing is showing loyalty to trump. he is a coconspirator in the next trial, in d.c.. the trial that focuses, that jack smith trial that focuses on the overturning of the 2020 election. and he knows that to survive, all of the material civil and regal cases that are on legal cases, he just just to stay close to donald trump, who has a legal defense of capable of raising money for him through his small donor turnout, and he just can't abandon trump right now. to say anything that disputes

trump's lying, which will continue to be his main message during his 2024 campaign, that 2020 was stolen, would be seen as disloyal and he could fall out of good graces with trump. he can't do that right now. he's pretty much reliant on him. >> let's talk about donald trump for a minute. sometime june january 7th or thereafter, someone is going to come down with a decision about whether donald trump is immune from prosecution on the basis of his argument that he was tried by the house and not convicted by the u.s. senate. so, these trials will be double jeopardy for things he did while he was president. that does not include the manhattan trial. that was defeated before he was president. it does not include mar-a-lago, because that is defeated after he was president. it would affect the january 6th trial, and it would affect georgia. if donald trump is deemed by the supreme court to be immune from prosecution, what happens to that georgia trial, which rudy giuliani is a party to?

>> the georgia trial will continue. it's just one, we started with 19. i think it's about 15 left? defendants. of course, the allegation is that all of the parties acted in a conspiracy to overturn the election for his own benefit. even if he is immune from prosecution, the rest of the defendants, who acted on his behalf, could still be prosecuted. >> there are, let's talk about the giuliani we are seeing this week, facing $148 million in finds now. this is a guy who's got on paid bills. how does this square with the giuliani that was mayor of new york and subsequently, the presidential candidate? i had forgotten this, the primary presidential candidate? he was the guy everyone thought would be the president of the united states in 2007, 2008. >> right. he was america's mayor. he stood among the rubble after 9/11.

as we know, crisis can make a politician in the same way it made governor cuomo, who subsequently fell from grace. but mayor giuliani was able to get through his term, even though he had many racist policies, like you pointed out, like stop and frisk. he was really remembered for how his time as mayor during a really difficult time in new york city, during 9/11. and then, he went on to give an amazing, glowing rnc speech. people believed he had a real future in republican politics. he obviously didn't make it the next level, and sort of became a bit of a speaking circuit type of guy. he was on the speaker circuit. you sort of log down to various presidential campaigns. he was on fox all the time before this election denialism. he was sort of on the president, almost a leader in the party, in a lot of ways. but actually, i think donald trump has been his real downfall. it's his own fault as well.

he's made a lot of mistakes. he was filmed in a borat movie in a very, you, no, cranky sort of scenario. he just seems to be falling into more and more reputational messes. he 79 years old, not to be ageist about it, but it's the end of his life, and it seems like not the end, but at the end of his career, and this is how it's all falling apart. it's hard to see anyone else you can compare to an american life who has taken this sort of stumbled towards again to their career. >> but let's, at let's talk about the fact that this, rudy giuliani, was found culpable of in this particular civil trial, are things that are actually going to be tried in the georgia trial as well. that specifics about how rudy, ruby freeman and shaye moss were treated and the things that were done to them. tell me how rudy giuliani will be found responsible for this in a civil trial affects the

allegations in the criminal trial. on one way, just a jury gets in though he's already found responsible for this? >> it wouldn't really be a part of the criminal case. the states will still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew those statements were false when he made them. he was very careful in his stipulation to say, i'm not contesting this for the purpose of this simple litigation. i'm sure the states will try to get those statements in. of course, if he testifies, maybe, to impeach him, he previously said that the statements were, in fact, false. we know outside of the courtroom, he's alleging they were true. he has -- that they were true, but we have to remember that part of why he was -- this judgment was filed against him because he abused to engage in rediscovering. so, and the proof he had the statements are either true or he believed them to be true when he made them could have been provided, and you know, they have not happened in this case. so, oh that will, again, come up in a criminal case, but the state will be able to say okay,

the civil journey has found him liable and the -- jury to award these damages to, in essence, prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. >> i appreciate the time you have all taken this morning. always, thank you, tara palmer is a senior correspondent -- host of somebody's got to win podcast and -- former fulton county deputy district attorney. all right, still ahead. senate and white house negotiators are working through the weekend to try to hammer out a deal with senate republicans to get military aid to ukraine and israel. we're going to talk about what's at stake-able from those countries, and the horse they are fighting in. we'll talk about what's holding up the aid. republican demands for action on immigrants and border security, in exchange for their support. what republicans want, what president biden is willing to negotiate, and what's likely to actually happen, is ahead. tually happen, is ahead. it's olay! with olay hyaluronic body wash 95% of women had visibly-better skin. and my skin is so much more moisturized. hey everybody, see the difference with olay.

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ukraine will enter its third year of war with russia, and time and resources are running out for the country's military resistance to russia. just when ukraine needs the most, there are signs u.s. support is waning. president volodymyr zelenskyy travel to washington, to see this week to press lawmakers for more military aid, but he left empty-handed. a shift, after nearly two years of relatively steady bipartisan support from american lawmakers. republicans in congress are holding up 110 billion dollar aid package for ukraine, israel, and other national security needs, unless democrats agree to border security restrictions. republicans say they will only vote for the aid if it's paired with new restrictions at the u.s. mexico border. the house adjourned on thursday for christmas recess, with plans to return in the year to figure this all out. the senate, however, delayed its holiday break to try to hammer out a deal. that's where we are now. if ukraine loses this war because u.s. aid dries up, the consequences will reach far beyond that country. nato would be weakened.

western allies would start to question how trustworthy the united states truly is, if it can't deliver on such crucial aid. not only would putin become more confident and more powerful, but so, to, with the leaders of other autocratic nations like iran, north korea, and china. senate majority leader chuck schumer noted that putin's quote, locking our resolve, and there's too much on the line for ukraine, for america, for western democracy to throw in the towel right now, end quote. on the other side of the break, i'm gonna get the debrief of this issue on ukraine funding. rana thought about u.s. funding of israel, former ambassador michael mcfaul is gonna join me now. rhonda curry al as well. he's a senior fellow of international affairs at the american university of beirut. standby. beirut. standby. and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon.

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mcfaul, former united states ambassador to russia, professor of international studies and political silence at stanford university, author of the book from cold war to hot peace. an american ambassador in putin's russia. , also joining us, robbie

cornish, senior fellow with american university of beirut. gentlemen, good morning to you. thank you for joining us. ambassador mcfaul, we were together earlier this week, when president zelenskyy and president biden made their pitch, both to america and the world. what, largely it was to the republicans in the house and congress to say, don't let your valid domestic political differences come in the way of us being able to keep going in this war. last hour, bill and i were talking about look, it's what have been unusual for him to leave for some sort of a deal, but is it your sense there is going to be movement as a result of president zelenskyy making his pitch directly to some of these republicans? >> well, they're still negotiating, so, that's a bit of a negotiated. i think it was a mistake to tie these things together. i think that's a bad way to make foreign policy. especially when, from my reading of the balance of the votes in the senate, the

majority of republicans actually support aid to ukraine. so, if there was a clean vote, we would get it. remember, the last clean vote we had in the house of representatives, before the speakership fiasco that forced mccarthy to step down, 300 members voted for it. 100 voted against it. so, what we're doing now is we're not doing what everybody believes is actually in our own national security interest. for the, break for the commercial break, you valerie eloquently stated this is not just about helping ukraine. though, i think that is vitally important. if they don't pass this aid, more ukrainians are going to die. but it's a much larger picture. about our credibility around the world. i hope our republican friends will take that into consideration when deciding whether to vote for this bill or not. >> with the credibility, the power of being america means. robbie cory, you know, there has been some disagreements with how president biden has

embraced israel in the post october 7th, after october 7th attacks. but his argument is logic, is that i'm giving that embrace in exchange for being able to have influence, in how israel prosecutes this war. that is starting to crack. we have seen it clearly this week, that joe biden is warning israel, you've got to change that we are doing this war with a number of civilians being killed. interestingly enough, netanyahu pushes not only is pushing back, he is actually using that to his benefit. he says i'm the guy who can keep joe biden from telling us how to prosecute this war. >> well, this is traditionally how netanyahu operates. he is a -- player, he grew up in philadelphia. he knows how to play tough in american politics. historically, he has succeeded pretty well. but this is not a normal historical moment. there are unusual new things happening in the public sphere in the united states and internationally.

and these are causing pressures, new pressures, if i'm the president in the u.s., the congress, the democratic party, especially, which is worried about losing the election, possibly because so many young people and people of color are going to leave because of what he's doing with not allowing the cease-fire to happen in gaza. and among other things. but we're also seeing signs of the small side of new change of possibilities, or you get senators asking bernie sanders as the other day for the human rights record of israel, and how it uses american aid. that's kind of unusual. you have the american president postponing the -- 20,000 rifles, because they were going to settler roczen the west bank, who were killing and burning. so, these are new, unprecedented science. but, you have to play this against the incredible a thank you s has put, not only that, you sort of biden embraced it's

real. you more than embrace it. he sat on the -- when the war started. that's pretty unusual. history tells us that you don't really have american president sitting in a war room, and, now my last point here is that you've got serious scholars of genocide and war crimes weighing in now, saying israel needs at least three of the five criteria of genocide. and court cases have been raised against the united states president and secretary of state and defense, from the center of constitutional rights and other people, saying you are complicit in war crimes. so, there is all kinds of signs of new dynamics, and we don't know if they're going to push the president to lean harder on israel. if netanyahu can actually -- so, this is completely uncharted new territory. >> mike mcfaul, let's talk about these international dynamics, which have been very much in flux for many years. certainly, as it relates to nato, under president trump, there was some fear that nato was not relevant anymore. there were some people who had lost interest in it. even some of our european

allies, some are very, very concerned about russian expansion. some are less concerned. joe biden helped put that together again. it's more than nato that is supporting the ukraine war. it's 20 other countries, about 15 countries, supporting this war. there are three buckets of people who would be affected by the united states not extending its funding to ukraine. what is nato. to our our broader allies, who would wonder what kind of a partner america's. and three, maybe equally or more importantly are the adversaries. the autocrats and authoritarian's of the world who are waiting to see if america blinks. >> that's exactly right. just look at the reaction of those buckets over the last week. our friends in ukraine, at least my friends in ukraine, are lamenting this debate we're having here. our european allies, they are . they're thinking oh my goodness, maybe america can no longer be relied upon. by the way, our allies and friends in asia are saying exactly the same thing. if you are sitting in taiwan right now, and you are seeing indecision by the united states

over ukraine, where we do not have to use our own soldiers, imagine what signal we're sending to the taiwanese about a potential military conflict on their island, where allegedly, we're going to come to their eighth? maybe we're. not because we are going to have a domestic up debate about it, or we're gonna tie our assistance to taiwan. and third, the autocrats. mr. putin had a couple of events this week, one where he was announcing he was running for reelection, and his call in show, and he looked very confident. remember, last, year he wouldn't even have the event. you showing it now, he canceled that event because he was so nervous about what was happening on the battlefield. he did not want to face people in a very controlled environment, by the way. all the questions are controlled. one, very confident. he thinks time is on his side. he and that's to the world the ukrainians can't produce their own resources, they have no ideology, they are running out of freebies. he thinks time is on his side.

so, if you are doing things in the senate, or making statements in the united states that putin is celebrating, maybe it's time to rethink the things you are doing. >> rami khouri, let's talk about what israel could've used to talk about. the rift here is about what happens as israel refers to the, day after. let's assume the day after they have achieved their objective with hamas. there's questions between the united states and israel about what the objective should actually be. but more importantly, there are questions about with whom you negotiate or with whom you talk to who represents the palestinians on the day after. the united states believes that's the palestinian authority. israel says absolutely not. there's a lot of palestinians who don't know what the palestinian, whether the palestinian authority should represent them. and number of the palestinian textbook to say this really can't be an american israeli decision. it's gotta be the palestinians decision. >> that's right. and what you're seeing here is a continuation of the dynamic

of not the last 30 years or so, the madrid peace conference. you are seeing a continuation of the -- united states assumes that it will be able to manage any kind of diplomatic process that shapes the future of the middle east. the reality is american mediation for the last 30, 40 years, has achieved nothing serious in the middle east, beyond the abraham accords, which are artwork a tile payoff. and, that the united states, i think it's totally confused about what to do. it hinders itself by not talking to people who should be talking to. and it doesn't really have the ability to force people to, push people, to do what seems to think it's the right thing to do. the biggest american success in the middle east was when it negotiated the nuclear deal with iran. and that is the model you need to follow. you need to talk to your adversaries. you need to --

after fighting them. so, hamas has to be in the process, if not as a crew, they might disband as a group, but the spirit of hamas, what it represents, which is a resistance of defiance, is now the strongest collective force around the middle east, which is linked to iran. and you have a subtle not the houthis in yemen the last ten days, shooting up ships and several shipping lines stop sending their boats through the red sea and the -- so, this is extraordinary that the strongest regional alliance right now in the middle east is the one that's associated with iran. hezbollah, hamas, -- smaller roles on iraq, and others. so, thank you astutely rethink how it's approaching the middle east. go back and think about what it did in iran. bite the bullet, talk to the people who really represent the spirit of what people believe across the middle east, and who

are willing to negotiate a peaceful resolution of the arab israeli conflict, on the basis of international law, that gives equal rights to the israelis and the palestinians, simultaneously. it's rail in the u.s. have never accepted that israel and the palestinians must have absolutely equal rights and sovereignty and states of security, or that they should have them simultaneously. this has to change. and it can change, because big issues around the world, like this one, we're change. south africa, northern ireland, other places. when the people in charge realize that their system, their policies were unsustainable. and this is really, i think, what's going on now. but u.s. and the rest of the world tried to manage the situation, but the palestinian authority is not at all credible. about 80% of the people in the west bank and gaza want the p.a. to disband, -- and a new elect. the most immediate priority is

for the palestinians to come to a -- representative, national leadership. which is still coming to be and -- and as a recognized israel three times in the last 40 years. it's unbelievable. hamas has clearly said on the record it is willing to live with the state of israel. of course, the predominant media coverage on political rhetoric in the u.s. is hamas wants to destroy israel. that was true 40 years ago. not the case now. so, you need a little bit more maturity in the american public discussion about these. like what happened with the taliban and the vietcong and other people who did resist -- and the u.s. had to try and reach a deal about them. >> thank you, guys. appreciate your time this morning. michael mcfaul, former united states ambassador to russia, author of from cold war to hot peace, an american ambassador in pasha russia. rami khouri, senior fellow at the american university of beirut. coming up, republicans are demanding accent on immigration and border security in exchange or their support for military aid to israel and ukraine, but

their demands on immigration are largely a parade of policy set of already been tried and failed. we'll talk about the state of negotiations this weekend. what's possible, and what's needed. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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wars since gaining independence in 1956. experts fear the fighting between the two militarized groups might end in a third scale, full civil war. according to the armed conflict location and event data project, or ak led, more than 10,000 people have been killed between april, when the war broke out, and november. and in the western sudanese region of darfur, the rapid support forces have been accused of ethnic killings against the miles of pleat people. more than 6.6 people in sudan have been forced to flee their homes between april and october, almost a fifth internally displaced within the country, hundreds of thousands of fled to neighboring chad, ethiopia, and south suzanne. but these countries are engaged in conflict as well. ethiopia, for instance, fighting between regional militia groups and the military is cropping up in the and barr e. jean, listen one year after the civil war in tigray and it. in 2018, abby emma dolly became the prime minister of ethiopia,

and in years of autocratic rule by the -- people liberation front. also known as tlpf for short. he was heralded as the country's new oath for peace, but in two years, tensions arose around long promised national elections, which were delayed. the tigray state council chose to hold regional elections in defiance of the government. those regional elections solidify the popularity of the tplf, triggering fighting between the ethiopian military and the tplf, hence, a civil war. an estimated 600,000 people died in that civil war, according to researchers at belgium's gant university. but as i mentioned, that came to an end about a year ago. this summer, however, clashes began to intensify between regional militia groups in the amhara and government forces. the malicious of not yet threatening the country's capital, but if they, do the country risks get another civil war. if the appeals government declared a six-month state of emergency over the ongoing fighting in august.

what the ethiopia, in an area known as the sahel region,, well they're facing serious instability, too. the sahel is a massive region spans class senegal, mauritania, molly, burkina faso, year, nigeria, chad, and sudan. and they are a trio. there's tens of millions of people. the conflict in the chat basin heated up with boko haram in northern nigeria. boko haram came notoriety after they abducted 276 girls in nigeria in 2014, sparking the bring back our girls movement. the splintering of boko haram has left the region unstable and susceptible to other militant groups. molly, burkina faso, and other parts of the shares are part of the -- portion of the sahel, and the conflict there could be traced back to 2011, after the collapse of libya. since then, violent extremist religious groups of thought to control the region, leading to a decade of conflict. following military takeovers in

mali and burkina faso in 2021 in 2022, a july coup in need here left the region and even more disarray. at least 7000 100 civilians in the sahel region have been killed this year, according to bloomberg. that is as of august, up from over 6000 in 2022. outside of africa, we can look to myanmar for another example of a protracted deadly conflict. myanmar's military overthrew the elected government in a coup in february 2021, and put a military government in place. since the coup, opposition forces have fought back for control of the territory, and they've been doing it regionally. according to the u.n., the clashes have displaced an estimated 578,000 people since october 26. that's on top of the already 2 million people displaced since 2021, and we more than 15,000 fatalities reported from august 2022 to august 2023. closer to home, mexico has been in the throes of bloody

conflict for years. more than 30,000 people died each year since 2018, according to the u.n.. and also the violence has been committed by drug cartels and related gangs, but in an attempt to crack a town on these groups, the mexican government has waged a deadly fight against the cartels, fraught with human rights violations. the violence across the country it's a factor in the mass immigration horseshoe knighted states. really continue to follow these deadly conflicts dumping attention to millions of innocent civilians all over the world who are living through times of war and violence. and violence. th titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon.

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negotiators are working through the weekend to try to pass a continuing resolution to provide needed support for ukraine and money for israel, but that supports being held up by republicans who are demanding changes to the immigration system, and according to widesprd reporting, the biden administration has signaled it swelling this to make significant concessions. negotiations appear to be centered around a asylum reform, and extreme border policy that would turn migrants away at the border without question and expand the tension of migrant adults. under the current system, a person may be eligible for asylum if they have quote, credibly fear of returning to their country of origin, because of a quote, persecution or well founded fear of persecution, on account of race, religion, nationality, membership with a particular social, group or political opinion. one of the many problems our current system faces is simply a lack of resources.

typically, before someone is supported, they are entitled to a hearing in immigration court. but the average wait time for a hearing is about four years. and recent reporting suggests that some immigrants must wait for nearly a decade. in the meantime, the vast majority of those people are released into the united states, where they often live in limbo for years. our system is broken, there's no question about that. but underdeveloped, reactionary policy changes are not the reform that we actually need. the restrictions that republicans are pushing for mimic policies that have already been tried, and have already failed, according to most immigration experts. the biden administration agrees the asylum system is abused, but a stricter asylum screening process already technically exists at the southern border. it's just not used because we don't have enough resources, like asylum officer says detention centers, to process people effectively. the other policy under consideration include significantly expanding migrant detention, would allow border patrol to turn people away at the border immediaty,o

questions asked. that mimics title 42 restrictions, which trump implemented during the covid-19 pandemic, and which the biden administration kept in place until this year, citing public health concerns as the justification for turning people away at the border. but that didn't work,. i they're the number of apprehensions at the phone border only increased after an initial law of the very start of the pandemic, and remained high throughout the entire lifespan of title 42. to its credit, the biden administration attempted to pass significant immigration reform, honest for stay in office, biden introduced what could have been the most comprehensive reforms to our immigration system in decades, but the bulk of it died in congress, almost immediately. and so, we're stuck with a system of enforcement and deterrence. a system that doesn't work. a system that hadn't seen substantive change in 40 years. by tracking border, attacking border policy, to international aid, congress is setting the stage for yet another set of half baked enforcement and deterrence initiatives, as a

band-aid for a system that clearly needs thoughtful and comprehensive overhaul. california democratic senator alex padilla has been in close communication with the biden administration for weeks, warning the president not to concede to what he says are dangerous policies. last month, senator padilla and ten colleagues put out a statement saying, in part, quote, as negotiations surrounding the supplemental aid packages -- progress, we are concerned about reports of harmful changes to our asylum system that will potentially deny life-saving humanitarian protection for vulnerable people, including children, and failed to deliver any meaningful improvement to the situation at the border. using a onetime spending package to enact these unrelated permanent policy changes such a dangerous precedent and, risks a systems to our international partners. joining me now is dara lynn, she supported on immigration issues for well over a decade. she's now a senior fellow at the american immigration council. directed, to see you. thank you for being with us. you have written extensively about this endless cycle of

enforcement and deterrence initiatives. the crisis and crackdowns, if we can say it that way. sometimes, these efforts work for a few months. it's not really a solution for us as a country. >> no. here's what we call a wait and see period, right? once policy changes, would be migrants, smugglers, a, saturable went for a while, see how it's actually being implemented,, then once word of mouth starts coming down that some people are getting through, whether there is some way to beat the system, people will start crying again. even if most people are getting rejected, if there's any positive messaging, and smugglers know how to amplify any positive message, people will start coming. so, that's why we kept seeing under title 42, when there was this policy of you know, immediate expulsion, people would just try and try and try again, because they knew at some point, they could successfully evade border agents, even if it took getting caught multiple times to do it. >> what's the, and this is a ridiculous question to ask you in a small segment.

but writ large, what should we be thinking about, as how to actually solve this problem? i think there's two issues, right? we've bunched up immigration policy and border security. that confuses the issue a little bit. >> absolutely. what's particularly worrisome about these negotiations is some of the proposals on the table was not offending effect on the border, but would affect immigrants already living in the united states. such as, proposal to expand the deportation without trial nationwide. but even if you're just talking about border security, the fact of the matter is any policy change are going to implement, you're going to need resources to do it. you can't just wave a wand and have people not show up at the u.s. mexico border. you have to put resources into dictating them, supporting them, and once you have committed to spend more resources, there are ways you can continue, you can make the system operates better by expanding the resources that exist in the current system without also creating this

churn of policy changes that creates confusion, that creates a lot of inconsistency and arbitrariness, that makes it possible for paperwork evers to separate families, to accidentally deport people, all the things you get when border patrol agents are being tasked with a constantly changing menu of policy. if you just expand the resources, we've heard that we currently have in place, you can get the more efficient through point the earlier part of the process, without creating all of that extraneous chaos. >> this past may, the american immigration council, rigorous senior fellow, put out a 60 page reports that's got 13 very doable recommendations. it's called beyond a border situation. how to build a humanitarian protection system that won't break. and part of the introduction reads as follows. politicians must abandon a fantasy of short term solution-ism and acknowledge only sustained investment over a period of time can realistically address these 21st century challenges. therefore, short-term action must focus on establishing a viable path toward better system. in the long term, with

significant investment, we can create a flexible, orderly, and safe asylum process. i get that, but there's a whole bunch of people in the united states, particularly in the republican congress, we don't want a better asylum system. >> agree that there are, if you think about it in terms of a better asylum system would be a more welcoming, one that's a difference of values. the problem is because, as you said, this has all been tied up in the idea of border security, and there is widespread agreement on both sides and, to be clear the, things you mentioned in your monologue, all of those proposals are things that biden administration also supports. there's a preventable sides of the change asylum policy to improve border security. but as long as you decided the border security is your first goal, there are things you can and should be doing that will improve processing, that will improve border management. it's that needs to be the basis for that in creating a more flexible, more responsive

humanitarian detention system, because the current system doesn't serve asylum seekers justice doesn't serve the interest of border management. and i know it's not simple at all, but it sounds very reasonable, coming from your lips. there, a thank you as always for joining. a sterile is a senior fellow at the american immigration council. that does it for me. thank you for watching. catch me back here tomorrow morning, 10 am, noon eastern. don't forget, velshi it's available as a podcast. you can follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. i wear that vest whenever a podcast. the right where you are. my good friend alex witt picks up our coverage, after a quick break. break. when your gut is out of balance, your body gives you signs.

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information on russia reportedly vanishes in donald trump's final days as president. in moments, what we know, what we don't know, and why it's causing so much alarm in u.s. intelligence circles. >> a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome, everyone, to alex witt reports. we begin with breaking news on capitol hill. as right now, a high stakes meeting is underway between the dhs secretary and a group of senators. they are racing to reach a bipartisan deal that would fund border security and the wars and both ukraine and israel. let's go to nbc's julie tsirkin, who's reporting on this from capitol hill for us. julie, welcome. tell us who is there and what's the latest on these talks? >> yeah, just across the capital, i just came from taking out that meeting, which involves the th