- it's possible to begin healing - to get the help you need. - to find peace. - [narrator] and as each warrior's needs evolve, so do we. because these last 20 years are just the beginning. good evening and welcome to ayman on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior and we have got a lot to talk about. i'm in the church not for my friend ayman mohyeldin. and we begin with jack smith's candid. the special counsel's push in the highest court in atlanta to shut down donald trump's claims of presidential immunity. then the baseless inquiry. house republicans have moved and impeachment inquiry into president balking that isn't supported by evidence.

and the most part, that no. it as well as just as four to georgia election workers. ruby freeman and shaye moss when $148 million in their long running legal battle with rudy giuliani. let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening. special counsel jack smith is calling the disgraced ex presidents bluff. this week, the supreme court granted smith's request to fast-track consideration of donald trump's claim of absolute immunity from criminal charges extending from his alleged attempts at interference in the 2020 election. trump's lawyers have been given until wednesday, that's december 20th, to file a response in their own briefed on this issue. following that move, the court of appeal and the d.c. circuit also graphics must owe motion to expedite trump's appeal. it's important to understand. this request from smith to the

supreme court's for unusual. not only to the special counsel just the justices to roll for an appeals court could act he also urge them to move with exceptional speed. in his brief, smith acknowledged that while he was asking was pretty much unusual saying, quote, the united states recognize that this is an extraordinary request. this is an extraordinary case. an quote. no one surprise, that disgraced ex president wasn't exactly pleased with smith's move. trump's team has now called on the d.c. circuit court to reject what it has criticized as, quote, a rush schedule proposed by the government. because if trump had his way, the appeal would have made its way through the d.c. circuit likely in a months long process before eventually making a stop at the supreme court. now i want us to stop for a minute and think about what the says regarding donald trump's confidence in his own defense. the idea of immunity has been

floated globally in some form by trump's attorneys for nearly all other criminal cases. if he's, write a significant number of his legal problems really would go away almost immediately. so in theory, if anyone has any interest and sit linda question of immunity as quickly as possible, wouldn't it be trump? this is of course assuming that he feels confident in the actual defense itself. the alternative is, he knows it's specious and best but he's hoping that that more times he has to repeat it, perhaps it might take root and someone, anyone, everyone will start to believe whatever it is he's saying regardless of what the law actually says. that's the nature of trump's legal battle. that that nature of his gamble. and as i said earlier, special counsel jack smith has not only called trump's bluff but he's raised the stakes in front of

the supreme court. and if smith is, write his gamble on the nation's highest court might just pay off. somebody should probably q kenny rogers the gambler. it seems like an appropriate tune here. now as the washington post aaron blake notes, the supreme court has already ruled ainst trump on this issue on multiple occasions. and they have even rejected his claim to absolute him unity unanimously. that comes from a 2020 case that involved a subpoena from the manhattan d.a. reckless -- records from trump's longtime accounting firm. at the time, trump tried to claim he had absolute immunity from a subpoena as a sitting president. but the supreme court disagreed. and they ruled that the president wasn't immune for comply with a state subpoena. bad news for him, then worse news for him. now because, really, that past ruling highlight the difficulty that his lawyers could face an argument for absolute immunity

before the supreme court. especially when you consider that trump's former attorney at the time, indicated he could still be prosecuted even after leaving office. hated the spotlight to court, quote, this is not a permanent immunity. to discuss all of this, let's bring in my panel. david henderson, civil rights attorney and former prosecutor. matthew dowd, former stray -- chief strategist for the bush cheney president campaign and an msnbc legal and political analyst. and michelle goldberg, columnist for the new york times and an msnbc political analyst. david, let's start with you. i want you to put on your prosecutor hat. can you please explain on a scale of 1 to 5, how unusual is that request that jack smith made in front of a supreme court? >> charles, it's a five. it's highly unusual. but this case is also highly unusual. of diversity circumstances like

this before. i think what smith is trying to do is keep this on track for the march trial date. it is ridiculous. if you want to give it any legitimacy at all, what to put aside, is you know what? you can't sue the president if they do something related to their official duties that you don't. like but here, former president donald trump is relying on, that extends to make committing crimes while i'm in office. you know the famous quote, i could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and not lose any votes. he's literally arguing, if i'm president, i should be able to shoot someone on fifth avenue and i should be immune from any wrongdoing. that's the argument. >> it is an absurd argument. and one of the things i'm interested to talk about is that notion donal trump has likened special counsel smith to the grinch, saying he's ruining christmas but trying to push this issue forward. donald trump has been pushed up the notion of immunity for so

long. warren he want to have it squared away with his political base that this is something that has no basis in legal fact? why is he trying to delay this even further, if he feels confident about his defense? or is this a notion of, you know, i'm feeling the pressure right now? >> i don't think donald trump or his base cares whether or not a decision is made on this. so i think fundamentally, hey doesn't have any desire to have clarity on any of this. what his desire is is to push this as far as he possibly can into delay after the november election. because then it becomes exceptionally more complicated. let's say donald trump wins in november and then he's president elect and ultimately president come january 2025. thank you get the whole question of, pays the current president, can he pardon himself? can you prosecute the current president that holds office while his holding office? all of that. i think that's what donald trump. once and what he's managed to

do this, for both from his legal strategy and his political strategy, but also from the reluctance of merrick garland and others to prosecute him, up until this point, if he's basically gotten himself passed the primaries, where he won't be convicted until he's basically that republican nominee. and his hope now is, since he's achieved that in, and because i have a caucuses are in for today, i was in for today, south carolina -- he's likely to win long before he's held up in a courtroom before a jury. he gets to push this so long and so far, that he gets past november, then we'll -- if he wins, a dicey situation. >> a lot of this requires us to look into the future and make some predictions. michelle, i want to ask, you look into the future, this is in front of the supreme court. there is a competition that has been for a very long time about improprieties with respect to the relationship that justice clarence thomas has had with the republican party, with

donors in the republican party -- as well as his wife -- and some of the connections she has had as well. talk to me about how that conversation plays out, regarding justice thomas and whether he will seek to either recuse himself or can he be trusted to roll impartially, if donald trump is in front of the court? >> i think the answer to both of those questions are no. obviously, he should recuse himself and just as obviously he's not going to. i would assume that he would give maximum deference to donald trump. the only thing but tempers that assumption is, as you mentioned before, when there was this other case about whether it had to respond to a state subpoena as president, the supreme court was unanimous in saying yes. so perhaps there are limits, even to clarence thomas's deference. and i certainly think, i can imagine that john roberts, who is so protective off the

reputation of the court, which has been rightly battered, that he would want to give a certain carte blanche for donald trump to commit as many car crimes as he wants, if he happens to win this election. but the question to me is, it's not really about how they're going to roll on the merits of the case. because -- it is a ridiculous argument. the question, is whether they will re-secure it and this extremely unusual and export of a timeframe, so that we can have the march trial date and sort of know before the november election whether or not donald trump is a convicted felon. >> michelle, following up on that point. you know, a lot of the rulings we have seen from the supreme court, even with the supermajority leaning towards the right, have not gone and trump's way for him. so is that any sort of writing on that what we should look

into or break into, in terms of what could be to future around this decision, as it pertains to donald trump and this claim, like you said, it really has a basis and law, off presidential immunity applying here? >> again, i think it's pretty obvious how the court will rule when they finally hear the case on the merits of immunity. i'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is what's at stake here is less about this underlying question, that whether they're going to even rule on this underlying question or it's made its way up through the courts. and the reason that matters is because donald trump obviously wants to postpone his march trial date and then direct the process out through a bunch of appeals because his ultimate legal strategy is get himself elected and make these cases go away. >> david, we have told about timing. and this is something that's obviously going to be on the minds of many people watching this. if the supreme court does take this up, and it's expedited,

can you give us a sense of, number one, how long do you expect that to houston to take? and number two, what does that do to that march 4th trial date it's looming as far as president trump's trial, with respect to the election in different case? >> i'd say to hold your wallet around anyone who claims that can give you a clear answer to that question. because a court will take however long it decides to take. but if you assumes matt gets what he wants, the court take this question up soon, they give him an answer soon, and tuesday on trick for that march trout it. but what's being said here is correct. really, all trump is hoping to do is buy more time. and most of the time, this actually would have worked. most of the, time that a standard thing the defense is always going to do to try to drag it, out direct it, outbreak it out here. if he can direct it out long enough to wear in his mind he ends up getting reelected, he will be able to make an effective case that all these cases need to hold until his

presidency is finished. but i'm thinking the hope is here, if smith is, right maybe we'll get an answer pick from the court as early as february. but that's all wishful thinking. because there is no way to know for sure, how long this will take. >> david, let's switch ars to another big story coming out of the supre court on wednesday. the court agreed to hear a case from a man charged with offenses during the january 6th attack on the capitol. they will consider whether a trout seeking to obstruct an official proceeding can be applied to the events of the day. can you break that down for all of our viewers who may be thinking, what do you mean obstruction? we also, it not what was going on, what was this even an issue? >> because it's not straightforward. at least in terms of how this is going to applaud everybody who is there at the capitol that day. i've given up in terms of guessing in terms of what these courts are likely to do. because if you have been brought in the court for the price couple of years, it's really difficult to anticipate exactly how some of these cases are coming to break down.

but obviously this will be pivotable for many people here, present this obstruction charge. and that does include the former president. >> david, we will see you back in a bit. michelle and matthew, please stick around. we have got more to talk about. after the break, republicans know their impeachment inquiry into president biden's and evidence free fiasco. but they are still continuing with it anyway. we are going to talk more about that, and then we'll go from the high court to what some might describe as a modern kangaroo court. standby, you are watching ayman on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, and we'll be right back. (other money manager) well, you must earn commissions on trades. (fisher investments) never at fisher. (other money manager) ok, then you probably sneak in some hidden and layered fees. (fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when our clients do better. that might be why most of our clients

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msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, filling in for ayman tonight. we go from the high court of what someone described as a modern kangaroo court. bipartisan consensus is rare in

washington, but after speaker mike johnson and his republican conference voted this week to formally approve an impeachment inquiry into president biden, senate republicans, democrats, and both chambers, and even some house republicans who actually voted for the inquiry all agree that there is no there there. the republican senator shelley moore capito, a member of senate leadership, told reporters, i don't see the grounds for impeachment yet. i think they're a long way from come to a conclusion there. also this week, when asked if biden had committed crimes or misdemeanors, nebraska republican don bacon said, quote, probably not. and, republican mainstream caucus chair dusty johnson said, quote, there is not evidence to impeach. so, why is mike johnson moving for up with this partisan smear campaign, even as some lawmakers and has on conference

or calling it a farce? leave it to the ever tranarent maga congressman troy nehls. when asked what he's hoping to gain from impeachment inquiry, he responded, quote, donald j trump 2024 baby! you have to love it when they say the quiet part out loud. back with me are matthew dowd and michelle goldberg. matt, you are republicans pursuing impeachment merrily because donald trump has demanded that they do so? is this a function of him having such a control over this party that they're going down this fertile road? >> well, i think the answer is yes. and both it's an answer of what donald trump wants and what the republican base wants. i think the republican base doesn't care if this facts, evidence, or any of. that donald trump doesn't care. and it's all about this path of retribution and vengeance that donald trump is on. and donald trump feels like, yes, in his mind, i got impeached twice so impeach joe

biden. let's even the score, no matter what the evidence is, no matter what it. is i think we have seen time and time and time again, after the last five or six years, that donald trump and the base has complete control over the republican -- at least in the house, and it's gaining strength in the senate. so, yeah, they don't care. to me, i liken this to, it's not only not evidence, it's lacking this to your go down the highway, a cop pulls you over, he comes up to your car and you say, thank you clock me on the radar? he says, i didn't use the right or. then, is my brake lights out? i didn't look at your brick lights. what did i do? i'm not going to tell you. and the whole time this is going on, he doesn't tell you, you point across the road and there is 51 cars piled up and you say, do something about the 51 cars piled up? which is what's going on in america and all around the world with these other issues. they don't care. it's a simple act and strategy of vengeance. >> let's start with this

analogy. you have a car pileup. eventually, no one's going to move anywhere because the highways going to be too crowded with traffic. and what we are looking at in washington is a clear logjam, with respect to congress. so what does it say about the future of democracy when you have a body whose members are committed to obstruction, opposed to legislation? and what does that mean for the future of the house in terms of its responsibilities to the american people? >> that's a great question. i think everything, every step of the way, this is a building block of how you get to dictatorship. any history of how countries fell and autocracy or detectives ships, this is one of the building blocks. you stop everything from happening. if you don't deliver what the american public wants. the american public gets angry, or at least a segment of them gets angry. and they basically throw democracy to the site, which is what the republican caucus wants to do.

and you move into that dictatorship. it's not only issues in our country of dealing with the border and what's going on with immigration and what's happening with health care, and all those -- it's two other democracies in the world, ukraine and israel, both under attack while the republicans sit here and play these games. this is exactly the steps it takes to get to a dictatorship or an autocracy, and the republicans same to be following a playbook that has existed for two or 300 years. >> all right, michelle. let's put aside whether there is actual evidence to impeach president biden. for the most part, we know that there isn't. is there any chance, however, that this cacophony of noise, that the republicans our sort of drumming up with respect to the impeachment inquiry and everything connected to it still effects president biden and a negative way as he hits the campaign trail? >> i, mean i think that's part of the reason obviously that donald trump wants to do this. so the people will, say donald

trump was impeached twice, biden was paged once, it's all sort of confusing. and in some ways, it's the effect nobody can articulate a clear reason biden is being impatient means there is even more of a morass. there is a lot of names for it around and fake information of corruption. and also relitigation in some sense of donald trump's first impeachment. because let's remember. one of the speeches, accusations being made about biden is that -- exactly the same thing that donald trump wanted zelenskyy to open an investigation. that was, donald trump was impeached for trying to fabricate bogus evidence about joe biden and his ties to his son and the firing of a prosecutor in ukraine. that is part of the reason that republicans are now impeaching joe biden, even that with seen so much evidence that there was nothing there. it's almost kind of making, taking public and important meat on its bones and making it

seem, making it seem legitimate. and while this could cause a backlash, and -- let's remember, when donald trump was impeached, there was all sorts of hand reading about our democrats just going to give him a victory when he's and evidently not removed from office? you don't see similar hand wringing now. people assume that republicans our going to be -- behave in their destructive way. so there is not much, there's not much, their expectations for republicans are so low and kind of that main benefit in the discourse. there could be a pro biden backlash, as people realize just how ridiculous this is, just as there was a backlash of pro clinton backlash when he was impeached on something, you know, something that was even more -- it was ridiculous impeachment. but there was at least a colonel of substance there. and yet what i worry about is,

you know, because the republicans are so good at flooding the zone with nonsense, although that's not the word that use, that some of that -- there is just gonna be a broad sense out there of that kind of, they're all corrupt. >> you know, matthew, i have one quick question for you and this is probably difficult to answer and about seconds. but given this, given that republicans are on this sort of did and witch hunt around president biden, when it comes to his campaign and how they respond, do they respond or is it something that you just allow it to flame out in some sort of other way by not touching it? >> i think the biden campaign needs to be much more disciplined about what this campaign is about. and i don't think they goo subsy of this. i think they basically say, if i were the, this is all a distraction from this, what's happening over here and what's been over here is a system -- system and disruption to get

rid ourselves of democracy and a place in the world where people prevail. i think the biden campaign -- has been trying to make it a campaign that bidenomics and arguing over whether or not what the republicans do is fill it in the. i think at some point, they have to say, this is what the race is about and everything that comes, whether it's negative or positive, they have to force it through that prism of this as a fundamental decision based on whether or not we're going to continue as a democratic donor. that's what they need to force everything through. >> michelle goldberg, the thank you so much. matt, you are going to stick with us. after the break, we will discuss the amazing and will deserve vindication for two georgia election workers who one $148 million from former new york city mayor rudy giuliani for his years long harassment campaign against the two of them. stay tuned, you're watching ayman on msnbc, i'm charles coleman junior and we will be right back. t back my skin, thanks to skyrizi.

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msnbc, i'm charles coleman junior in for ayman tonight. have you ever wondered what it would cost a spread harmful and untruth lies on innocent people and potentially ruin their lives? yeah, man either. but if you somehow wanted to know how that works out beyond the hypothetical, you cannot ask disgraced former new york city mayor rudy giuliani. giuliani has been ordered to pay $148 million and damages to appear of georgia election workers who he repeatedly and knowingly falsely accused of election fraud in 2020. fulton county election workers ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss testified that they received hundreds of threatening and racist calls, texts, and emails after giuliani made them the target of a baseless election conspiracy theory.

according to their attorney, strangers even showed up to freeman's home, attempting to make citizens arrests. let's remember. these women are private citizens, participating in the democratic, that's multi, process. without people like freeman and moss, we couldn't even have elections. and the thanks they go for their service was years of pain, suffering, and harassment. now, i'm going to deal with the elephant in the room. part of what feel the response to both freeman and moss was textbook what nationalism. it's important to distinguish white nationalism from white supremacy, because what nationalism, as in this case, is rooted in the idea that america's prices and systems are chiefly reserved for white people. and that people like moss and freeman, who are not, what should not have access or be able to participate or to be able to enjoy the functioning of the same processes and systems. it's the same reason why trump

and his attacks on u.s. state attorney general letitia james and manhattan district attorney alvin bragg and fulton county district attorney fani willis have just a little more but then some of the things he says about anybody else. and giuliani's appeals to white nationalism has now become quite costly. let's bring back david henderson and matthew dowd. david, i want to start. just give me your reaction to this verdict. $148 million is a very, very costly verdict. >> it's a costly verdict, charles. and to be honest, this isn't just a win. this is one of the biggest winds i've ever heard of. when we are picking juries, one of the questions we always have to ask is, who here could not award money for a harem that i cannot show you our sheet for? i cannot show you a receipt for pain. i cannot show you a receipt for suffering. and people always raise their hands and say, look. you catch uninterested, by

can't give you any money for it. not only they gave money here, they gave $148 million. that is an epic victory. the only thing you have to acknowledge, though, is, and this goes to your point about nationalism. it does not make up for what these two when it went through and rudy giuliani is in such a downward spiral. they're not likely to see a time of that money. and the real issue here is you've got a preview for the way the jury down and georgia is going to receive them. and so giuliani, former president trump, and everyone in the reciprocal should be very, very nervous about this outcome. >> and i think that's a great point, about the fact this is a verdict that, once the judgment is actually entered by the judge, ultimately may not leave either miss freeman or miss moss was much of what it is they were aborted. and i think that is unfortunate, when your talk about what justice looks like. even as they cannot be made whole. matthew, i want to ask you a big picture question. i think there's been a lot of

conversation about the notion of protecting democracy and democracy under attack. but democratic institutions don't have faces. can't you just talked about the notion that, in this instance, these two women, these two black women, they ended up being the face of what happens when democracy is actually attacked. and the significance of that, as opposed to these faceless notions of institutions and the idea, broadly, of what democracy is. >> i'm glad you asked that. and i'm going to try this together with also what i think you're appropriate comments about white nationalism in america today. and so, what democracy is dependent upon, people like ruby freeman and shaye moss, because they're the people that actually conduct the elections in local after local after local. there are thousands and thousands and thousands of them. many of them are volunteers. they're the ones who sit at the polls, take the fellas, that's how democracy functions. without those people, democracy

can't function. democracy isn't just some blank as you say, some blankets were of institution out there and somehow they're going to cheerful. it's dependent on people like ruby freeman and shaye moss, in order for it to function in this. and what we have seen over and over and over, it's not surprising that a case like this is occurring in atlanta, largely monroe jordy minority population. this is where republicans have gone and people like donald trump and rudy giuliani have gone. look at jurisdiction after jurisdiction we were they have created these conspiracies and tell these lies. it's in places like atlanta. places like detroit. places like flint. places like philadelphia. places like houston. pleasures lactyl us. what do the old heaven common? every single one of, them majority minority populations in those cases. so it's not as if they're going to topeka, kansas and trent discover election fraud. or des moines, iowa. they're going to all the places with large minority populations,

to try to discourage people from serving as poll workers and for voting. >> i think that's really well said. and i think it's important that you point it out. we are this as occurring and what the common thread is their. for anyone doubting that notion that white nationalism is fueling these types of attacks and this narrative, these are irrefutable results and evidence. david, i want to turn to. you good old rudy giuliani. hey really did not help his case. on monday, after the first day of the trial, he doubled down on his defamatory claims against both freeman and moss. do you think that this hurt his case? do you think it made any difference? i would imagine, and a lot of people don't know this, you and i would know this is a trial attorneys. most people on the jury might not have had access to that information. so in any event, do you think it made a difference?

>> charles, it's tough to say because your point is well taken. the jury should not have had access to any of that information. at the same time, you have to think about this and contacts, in combination with what you've already been talking about with regard to impeachment inquiry. this was not a trial, that when we typically think a case goes to trial. they did not have to determine whether or not rudy giuliani defamed those two women. it was determined before the trial -- trial even began,. yes you defamed them. the only question was, what is it going to cost? you and he acknowledged he defamed them. so he acknowledged he defended him, then he had this press conference in the middle of the trial saying, no, i'm innocent, i shouldn't be here in the first place, and these two ladies are wrong. so which time am i supposed to believe? when you acknowledged you defame them, or what you're seeing right now? it is a reflection about the limitation of agency people have. as i say that, again, it shouldn't have impacted what the story obviously did. the other thing to look at here, is he chose not to take the

stand. that means his lawyers hit a competition and they say, look. the only thing you can do is make this worse. so we are not even going to put you up there. and with that in mind, it went to the jury, into the jury returned a verdict of $148 million. so it didn't matter what he did, no. but it was so bad to begin with, it may not have even made a difference in the grand scheme of things. >> david henderson and matthew dowd, thank you to keep both. such fan important conversation. coming up, we'll continue the discussion with michigan secretary of state jocelyn vincent on that. and new revelations about the trump campaign's involvement in the 2020 fake electors campaign as well. you're watching ayman on msnbc, and we'll be right back after a short break. stay tuned. k. stay tuned

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vo: illegal immigrants rush our border in record numbers. more get away than are detained. leaders of “sanctuary cities” spend billions on migrants - creating a magnet for more illegal immigration and fueling the crisis. all while americans struggle to pay for food and housing. and what is the biden administration doing? closing more immigration detention facilities. tell your member of congress: biden's closing of immigration facilities makes this crisis even worse. welcome back to ayman on

msnbc, i'm charles coleman junior in for ayman mohyeldin tonight. top michigan republicans have made a direct link between the fake elector scheme which was designed to overturn the 2020 election and donald trump's campaign. this revelation came this week from former michigan gop communications director anthony simon, and a priminary trial against a group of 50 republicans. that grp facing felony forgery charges for serving as pro trump fake electors. some testified -- lower for trump's campaign and

michigan who doubled in the fake elector meeting in the basement of the state party headquarters. that made him took place on december 14th, 2020. this group included former and current party officials along with party activists and officeholders, including a mayor and township clerk. wow. all of the defendants have pleaded not guilty, but one. james reiner. james runner had all of the charges dropped in october, after he reached a cooperation deal with the state. not good news for the other 14, i can tell you that, as a former prosecutor. trump campaign lawyer sean flynn has not yet publicly comment on the claim. joining me now to discuss all of this as michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson. thank you so much for being here, secretary. of luck to start, what is your reaction to this new alleged

tie between the trump campaign and the fake electors plot? >> i'm not surprised. thank, you charles, thanks for having me. you're doing a great job as the host, i'm really thrilled to see you here. and i wasn't surprised at all. we lift this. it was three years ago, but we saw this unfold firsthand. as people showed up at our state capital. we got a cold front that national or cause, that these fake electorate significance had been received. it's never been a doubt to me that there is a direct line connecting trump and his campaign to this game at michigan and six other states. so it's gratifying to say this now be revealed. i guess you could say, in a court of law. so that we can get one step closer to true accountability for those who tried to subvert the will of the people. >> near four and a history of american politics have secretaries of state been as popular as they are now. and so, congratulations on your newfound stardom with respect to everyone watching what everyone does, particularly in swing states.

i want to ask you, theoretically speaking, now that we have reached this point, where people know, specifically, in a state, this is another place where i can disrupt the process. we've seen challenges with respect to automatic recount being triggered, but never before has it been, we are going to try to disrupt things at the places where people are doing it now. have we reached the point where that notion of accepting the results of the election as being free and fair is just out of the question? >> it has to be, if ours democracy is going to survive. we do have to get back to a place where affects role today. and, look i welcomed the greater scrutiny and spotlight on our work and michigan and in battleground straits around the country. because election officials are professionals. we are bipartisan, we are by the book, and we make sure no matter who someone votes, for their vote counts. so that more transparency on the protests, the more questions that are asked, the more proud we are tuesday up

insight, this is what we do our job. campaign seat fortress elf house across the process as. so my hope is, that greater scrutiny will yield to a place where we can get back to the point of where someone loses an election, they accept that result. because they know truth is truth and facts are facts. the unfortunate point alongside all of this is -- you have candidate refusing to accept the truth imploded on lies ventilated right against us, the professionals doing our jobs. and then perhaps some accountability for that even as we have seen play out in georgia this week. >> given this role of misinformation that exists in the sphere now, just in terms of peoples access to misinformation and how quickly it can spread. how much more difficult does it make your job in terms of getting the public to actually accept those results, when you do with integrity and transparency host an election, but there is a misinformation campaign that actively trying to get people to question or have mistrust in the system? >> you know, in 2020, when we

were planted the election, weight or meticulously planning for every but angel can into sea except the weeks and months of working to defend the accurate results after the polls had closed and the process had played out. we have now built and and and paris segment of our preparation and planning for every election the takes into consideration the post election challenges. it causes more resources to be devoted to fighting misinformation and more resources to building our planes to counter mountain formation and counter the faculty it was the truth. so it's taken a lot more work on that front, and every step we tech to fight misinformation is one step we take away from just being able to do our jobs, which is making elections are run smoothly. so we've got to do a lot more in the same amount of time, but we have stepped up every step of the way and are leading that moment and protecting our democracy well and counter misinformation and hopefully seeking accountability for the lawyers -- >> this is not necessarily the first impression case.

it is a preliminary hearing we're talking about. but we have some level of precedent in terms of what's going on and nevada, as well as wisconsin. do you have any faith that what happened, what is happening there could bode well for the future in terms of michigan and what is being looked into around this fake elector scheme here? >> yeah, what i'm really grateful for, attorney general dan sullivan who from take one i seriously. the man we referred these fake electors significance to her office, and has been meticulous and seeking justice. it's important to note, and every one of the state, that national conspiracy, as it were, to try to overturn the election results, would i have fully been possible if we didn't have willing coconspirators and michigan, and nevada, and wisconsin, and elsewhere. so the fact we now see coconspirators pleading guilty, or being part of the judicial process, a legal process, puts us one step closer to ensuring that this doesn't happen again. and that in 2024, we have got

more people in line with accepting the results of the election, regardless of what they may be, as opposed to trying to challenge them, even the old evidence points to the accuracy. >> secretary benson, this has been an amazing competition. i've got about 30 seconds left. offered to ask, as someone who loved his elections, what's your reaction to the verdict yesterday against rudy giuliani for attacking election poll workers to the tune of $148 million? i keep saying it, because that number needs to be emphasized. >> it's extraordinary. and now there are $148 million reasons why no one should lie about election workers or a tech us in the field. i got choked up. i know ruby and shaye well. i got to know them over the course of this challenging time. they are tremendously professional people. i'm really proud that so this the whole way through. and it seems a strong message to anyone who would try to interfere with our elections for attack our election workers,

because if you do, so you might find yourself in court and facing bankruptcy and significant penalties. so i'm grateful for the process playing out the way it did here. >> a strong message indeed. michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson. thank you for being here on ayman tonight. coming up after the break, a big win for new york democrats ahead of the 2024 election. we'll get to that and a lot more. so stay tuned, you're watching ayman on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior and we will be right back. will be right back. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. (dog bark) it's simply fresh meat and vegetables, with all the nutrients dogs need— instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it's amazing what real food can do.

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msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, in tonight for ayman. this week, democrats took a major step to retaking the when the new york appeals court order that retu othe states congressional boun. and for three opinion, the court ordered the states independent redistricting convention to submit a new met by the end of every, and if the commission fails to agree on a proposal, the democrat controlled state legislature will take over the drawing process. new york democrats have been here before. last year, after the commission was deadlocked on a redistricting plan, the legislature submitted adjournment roadmap that heavily favor democrats. but at the point, the appeals court rejected the proposal and instead ordered more balanced district lines. as a result, new york

republicans went on to flip for a house seats in the midterms. this was a small bright spot for the gop for a mostly disappointed. not but democrats night received a bit ruined best time, in part because moderate court member was replaced by a liberal judge. say, kids? everything worked together. the party is expected to pop for our new met the kinetic between two and six house seats. the gop has held districts that are more likely to be affected in the suburbs of new york saudi, districts that service already considered vulnerable before tuesday's ruling, since joe biden karatsev of them by double digits in 2020. it's important to understand, this has implications far beyond new york. new york's maps could offset gop gains in north carolina, where that states supreme court approved a tremendous amount that could net republicans at least three states. there is another hour of ayman

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