good evening and welcome to ayman on msnbc i'm charles coleman junior and we have got a lot to talk about. i'm in the church not for my friend ayman mohyeldin. and we begin with jack smith's candid. the special counsel's push in the highest court in atlanta to shut down donald trump's claims

of presidential immunity. then the baseless inquiry. house republicans have moved and impeachment inquiry into president balking that isn't supported by evidence. and the most part, that no. as well as justice for two georgia election workers. ruby freeman and shaye -- when 100 and $48 million and their long awaited legal battle with ruby giuliani. let's get started. good evening. special counsel, jack smith, is calling on the disgraced ex presidents bluff. this week, the supreme court granted smith's request to fast-track consideration donald trump's claim of absolute immunity from criminal charges that were stemming from his alleged attempts set interference in the 2020 election. trump's lawyers have been given

until wednesday. that's december 20th, to file a response in their own brief on this issue. following that move, the court of appeals in the d.c. circuit also grants this motion to expedite trump's appeal. it's important to understand, this request from smith, to the supreme court, is very unusual. not only did the special counsel asked the justice system before an appeals court could act, he also urged them to move with exceptional speed. in his brief, smith acknowledged that when he was asking was pretty unusual. saying, quote, the united states recognizes that this is an extraordinary request. this is an extraordinary case. and quote. did no one surprise, the disgraced ex president wasn't exactly pleased with this move. trump's team has now called on the d.c. circuit court to reject what it has criticized as, quote, a schedule proposed by the government. if trump headed his way, the appeal would've made its way through the d.c. circuit in a

months long process before eventually making a stop at the supreme court. now, i wanted to stop for a minute to think about what this says regarding donald trump's confidence in his own defense. the idea of immunity had been 40 globally in some form by trump's employees for nearly all of its criminal cases. if it's right, a significant number of legal problems really go away almost immediately. in theory, if anyone has any interest and settle in the question of immunity as quickly as possible, wouldn't it be trump? this is, of course, assuming that he feels confident and that actual defense itself. the i.r.a. charted of is that he knows it's speeches at best, but he's hoping that the more time he has to repeat it, perhaps it might take root, and someone, anyone, everyone, we'll start to believe whatever

it is he sane regardless of what the law actually says. that is the nature of trump's legal battle. that's the nature of his gamble. as i said earlier, special counsel jack smith has not only coal trump's bluff, but he is raise the stakes in front of the supreme court. and, smith is right, his gamble on the nation's highest court might just pay off. somebody should probably q kenny rors the gambler. it seems like an appropriate tune here. now is thewashington post notes, the supreme court has already ruled for, or against trump, on this issue, on multiple occasions. they've even rejected his claim to absolute immunity, unanimously. that comes from a 2020 case that involved a subpoena from the manhattan d.a., for records from trump's longtime accounting firm, mazars usa. at the time, trump tried to claim that he had absolute immunity from the subpoena as a sitting president. the supreme court disagreed.

they ruled that president wasn't complying with the state subpoena. bad news for him then, worst news for him now. because, really, the past ruling highlights the difficulty that he could face in arguing for the supreme court. especially when you consider the trump's former attorney at the time indicated you could still be prosecuted even after leaving office. he did this by plainly telling the court, quote, this is not a permanent immunity. to discuss all of, us let's bring in my panel, david henderson. civil rights attorney and former prosecutor, matthew dowd, he was a former chief strategist for the 2004 presidential campaign, and, in this nbc legal, political analyst, rather, and michelle goldberg, columnist for the new york times and msnbc political analyst. david, let's start with you. i want you to put on your prosecutor hat. can you please explain, on a

scale of 1 to 5, how unusual is the request that jack smith made in front of the supreme court? >> i, mean, charles it's a five. it's highly unusual, but it's also highly unusual the, case. and never seen a case quite like this before. smith is trying to keep this case on truck for the trial setting that they currently have. the argument we're dealing with is absolutely ridiculous. if you want to give it any legitimacy at all, what you have to say is that you can't sue the president if they do something that's related to their official duties that you don't like. here, former president trump is arguing, hang on, that extends to me committing any crimes. we know the famous quote, hey, i could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not lose any votes, he's literally arguing, if i'm president, i should be able to shoot someone on fifth avenue and not go to jail because on the president in a mean from any wrongdoing. that's an absurd arguments. >> it is an absurd argument. one of the things th i'm

interested to talk about, matthew, is this notion that donald trump is essentially like events special counsel smith, that he's ruining christmas by trying to push this issue forward. donald trump is from pushing the notion of immunity for so long. wouldn't he want to have a squared away with his political base, that this is something that has no basis in legal facts? why is he trying to delay this even further if he feels confident about his defense? or is this the notion, of i'm feeling the pressure right now. >> i don't think donald trump or his base cares whether or not a decision is made on this. i think, fundamentally, he doesn't have any desire to have priority on any of this. what desire is to push this as far as he possibly can and delay it until after the november election. then it becomes exceedingly more complicated. let's say donald trump wins a november. then he's the president-elect. ultimately, the president, come

january 2025, then you get into this whole question of he's the current president, can he pardon himself, can you prosecute the current president that holds off as well he's holding office, all of that. i think that's what donald trump wants. it's what he's managed to do thus far, both from his legal and political strategy, and also from the reluctance of merck garland to prosecute him up until this point. he's basically gotten himself passed the primaries, where he won't be convicted until he's basically the republican nominee. let's hope now, since he said she thought, and because the iowa caucuses are 30 days, there are 40, days south carolina, he is held in a courtroom before a jury, he gets to push the so, long so far, that he gets past november, then we're really in, if he wins, a dicey situation. >> so a lot of this requires us to look into the future and make predictions.

michelle, looking into the future, in front of the supreme court, there is a conversation that has, been for a long time, about improprieties with respect to the relationship that justice clarence thomas has had with the republican party, with the donors in the republican party, on the, right as well as ginni thomas, and some of the connections that she has had as well. talk to me about how that conversation plays out regarding justice thomas and whether he will or will not see to either recuse himself, or can he be trusted to rule impartially, if donald trump is in front of the court. >> i mean i think that the answer to those questions are, no obviously, he shouldn't recuse himself, he is not going to. i would assume that he would get maximum deference to donald trump. the only thing the tempers that assumption is as you mentioned before, when there was this other case about whether he needed to respond to a state

subpoena as president, the supreme court was unanimous in saying yes, so perhaps there are limits even to clarence thomas's deference and i certainly think that i cannot imagine ken roberts, who was so protective of the reputation of the court, which has been rightly battered, that he would want to give a certain carte blanche for donald trump to commit as many crimes as he wants if he happens to win this election, the question to me is not really how they're going to rule on the merits of the case, because as it's been, said it's ridiculous argument, the question is whether they will agree to hear it in this extremely unusual an expedited timeframe. so that we can have the march trial date, and sort of know, before the november election, whether or not donald trump is a convicted felon. >> michelle, following up on

that point, a lot of the rulings that we've seen from the supreme court, even with the supermajority leaning towards the rights, have not gone in trump's way, for him. is that any sort of writing on the wall that we should look into, or read into, in terms of what could be the future around this decision as it pertains to donald trump and his claim, like you said, there really has no basis in law, of presidential immunity applied here? >> again, i think that it's pretty obvious how the court will rule when they finally hear the case on the merits of immunity, right? i'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that it's less about this underlying question of what they're they're going to even rule on this underlying question for its beat its way up the courts. the reason that matters is that donald trump, obviously, wants to postpone his march trial dates, then drag the process out through a bunch of appeals.

his ultimate legal strategy is getting himself elected, then making these cases go away. >> david, we've talked about timing, and this is something that is obviously going to be on the minds of many people who are watching this. if the supreme court does pick this, up it's expedited, can you give us a sense of, number, one how long you expect that decision to take. number two, what does that do to that march 4th trial date that is looming as far as president trump's trial, with respect to the election interference case? >> a trial, around anyone that can give you a clear answer to that, one because the court is going to take however long it decides it wants to, take if you assume that smith gets what he wants, in the court takes this question of zoom, to give an answer soon, and you stay on track for the march trial date, what's been said here is correct that all trump is hoping to do is to buy more time. most of the time, this actually would have worked. most of the time, that's a

standard thing that the defense is always going to do to drag it out, drag it out, drag it out. if he can drag it out long enough that, in his mind, he ends up getting reelected. then he'll be able to make an effective case and all the cases need to hold until his presidency is finished. i think that the hope here is that smith's rights, maybe we get an answer back from the court as early as february. i thinkthat's wishful thinking, because there's no way to know for sure. >> david, let's switch gears to another big story coming out of the supreme court on wednesday. the court agreed to hear an peal brought by a man who's been charged with offenses related to the january 6th attack on the capitol. this case calls into question what they're obstructing an official proceeding can be applied to the events of that day. can you break this down for all of our viewers who might be thinking, what do you mean? obstruction. we all saw, but why is this an issue? >> because it's not

straightforward, at least in terms of how this will apply to everyone who is there at the capitol that day. i've given up in terms of guessing, and what these courts are likely to do. if you're watching the courts to the last couple years, it's really difficult to anticipate exactly how some of these cases are going to break out. obviously, this would be pivotal for many people who are there, who are facing this obstruction charge, and that does include the former presidents. >> david, we will see you back in a bed. michelle and matthew, thank you, stick around with me. we have more to talk about. after the, break republicans know their impeachment inquiry into president biden is in evidence free the asco. there's still continuing with it anyway. we're going to talk more about that, and then, we are going to go from the high court towards some may described as a kangaroo court. stay tuned, you're watching a man on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, we'll be right back. l be right back. but...he wasn't.

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i'm charles coleman junior, in frame it tonight. now we go from the high court to one some might describe as a modern kangaroo court. bipartisan consistence is rare in washington, but after mike johnson and his republican conference voted this week to formally approve an impeachment inquiry into president biden, senate republicans, democrats, and both chambers, and even some house republicans who actually voted for the inquiry,

all agree that there is no there there. this, week republican senator, sandy shelley -- a member of senate gop leadership, told reporters, quote, i don't see the grounds for impeachment yet. i think there are a long way from coming to a conclusion there. also this week, when asked if biden had committed crimes, or misdemeanors, the republican said, quote, probably not. and, republican mainstream caucus chair said, quote, there is not evidence to impeach. so, why is mike johnson moving forward with this partisan smear campaign, even as some wmakers in his own conference are calling it a force? leave it to the ever transparent maga congressman, troy kneels. when asked what he's hoping to gain from a impeachment inquiry says that donald j trump 2024, baby.

you have to love it when they say the quiet part out loud. back with me are matthew dowd and michelle goldberg. matthew, are republicans pursuing impeachment really because donald trump has demanded that they do so? is this a function of him having such a control over this party that they're going down this whole? >> well, i think the answer is yes. both its answer of what donald trump, swanson with the republican base wants. i think the republican base doesn't care about whether there is evidence or any of. that donald trump doesn't care. it's all about this path of retribution, and retribution vengeance. the don trump's. on donald trump, feels like, us i've got a piece, a coat to impeach joe biden. no matter what the evidence is, no matter what it is. i think we've seen time and time again, after, of the last five years, and the bases complete control over the republicans, at least in the

house, it's gaining strength in the senate. i don't care. to me, i liken this to, it's not only not evidence, it's liking this too, you're going to young, highway a cop pulls you, over he comes up to a car, you say to him, did you clock? in they go, no, it didn't use the radar. then you, say is my brake light on? no, it was looking to break. lights than what did i do? i'm not going to tell you. the whole time this is going on, he doesn't tell, you your point across the road in those 51 cars piled up and you say, why don't you do something about the 51 cars piled up? that's what's going on in american around the world with all these other issues. they don't care, it's just a simple act and strategy of vengeance. >> so let's stay with that analogy, you have this car pileup. eventually, no one's going to move anywhere because the highway is going to be piled with traffic. we're looking at in washington is a logjam. what does it say about the

future of democracy when you have biden, whose members are committed to obstruction, opposed to legislation. what does that mean for the future of the house in terms of its responsibilities to the american people? >> that's a great question. i think every step of the way, this is a building block of how you get to dictatorship. any history of how countries play into dictatorship, this is one of the building blocks. you stop this from happening. you don't deliver the american public wants. the american public gets angrier, and then they basically throw democracy to the side, which is what the republican caucus wants to do. then you move into the distant dictatorship. it's not only issues in our country about dealing with the immigration, and what's happening with health, care it's two into other democracies in the, world ukraine, and israel. they're both under attack, can

republicans send these games. it's, this is exactly the steps it takes to get to a dictatorship, or an autocracy, in the republican seat, they seem to be following the playbook for two or 300 years. >> let's put aside whether there is actual evidence to impeach president biden. for the most part, we know that there isn't. is there any chance, however, that this cook off an e of noise, that the republicans are sort of drumming up, with respect to the impeachment inquiry and everything connected to it, still affects president biden in a negative way as he hits the campaign trail? >> i think that's part of the reason, obviously, the donald trump wants to do this, right? so people will, say will donald trump was impeached twice, biden was impeached once, it's all sort of confusing. and some, ways the fact that no one can articulate the reason that biden's been impeached, means that it is going to be more rat.

more names thrown around, a vague intonation of corruption. also, litigations. since donald trump's first impeachment, because remember, one of the speeches, one of the accusations being made about biden is exactly the same thing that donald trump wanted zelenskyy to open an investigation. donald trump's impeachment were trying to fabricate all this evidence about joe biden and his ties to his son, and the firing of a prosecutor in ukraine. that is part of the reason that republicans are now impeaching joe biden, even though we've seen so much evidence that there was nothing there. it's almost making, it's almost taking propaganda, and putting meat on its, bones making it seem legitimate. well this could backlash, and when donald trump, remember when donald trump was, impeach there was all of this -- but are democrats just going to give him the victory when these

inevitably uprooted from office? you don't see similar hand-wringing now, people assume that republicans are going to behave him destructive way. there is not much, yeah, there is just, their expectations for republicans are still low, they benefit from that in the discourse. there could be a pro biden backlashes people realize just how ridiculous this, is just that there was a backlash, a pro clinton black lush. he was impeached on something, you, know something even more that was, it was ridiculous impeachment, but there was at least a colonel of substance there. yeah, that's what i worry about, is that, you know, because the republicans are so good at letting this zone with, nonsense there is going to be a broader sense out there that they're all corrupt. >> you know, matthew, one quick

question for, you and i know this is probably difficult to answer in about 60 seconds but given this, given that republicans are on the sort of dead and witch hunt around president biden, when it comes to his campaign, and how they respond to, a do they respond, or is it something that you just allow to flame out in some sort of other way by not touching it? >>, while i think the biden campaign needs to be much more disciplined about what this campaign is about. i don't think they go to any substantive response to any of those, i think they basically say, of our them, this is all the distraction from what's happening right, here what's happening over here. the systematic destruction and desire to bitter cells of a democracy, in a place with the will of the people prevail, that's what this is about. i think the biden campaign has been, they've been trying to make it a campaign about bidenomics, and arguing over whether or not the republicans are doing something valid. at some, point they have to say

this is what the race is about. everything that comes, what they're negative or positive, they have to force in that prism. there is a fundamental decision based upon whether or not we're going to continue as democracy going forward. that's what they need to force, everything through. >> michelle goldberg, thank you so. much matthew, you're going to stick with us. after the break, we will discuss the amazing and well deserved vindication for two georgia election workers who won 100 and $48 million. former new york city mayor, or for his years long harassment campaign against the two of them. stay tuned, you're watching ayman on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior. we will be right back. right back. rve discomfort in as little as 14 days. now i can help again. feel the difference with nervive.

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msnbc. on charles coleman junior. have you ever wondered what it would cause to spread harmful and untrue lies on innocent

people, potentially ruined their lives? yeah, me either. but, if you somehow wanted to know how this works out beyond a hypothetical, you can now asked disgraced for new york city mayor, rudy giuliani. giuliani has been ordered to pay 100 and $48 million and damages towards georgia election workers who he repeatedly unknowingly falsely accused of election fraud in 2020. fulton county election workers testified that they would see hundreds of threatening and racist calls, text, and emails after giuliani made them the target of a baseless election conspiracy theory. according to their attorney, strangers showed up to their home attempting to make a citizens arrest. let's remember, these women are private citizens participating in the democratic, small d, process. without people like friend him and mosques, we couldn't even

have elections. the things they got for their service was years of pain, suffering, and harassment. now, i'm going to deal with the elephant in the room. part of what fueled the response to freeman and ross was textbook nationalism. it's important to distinguish white nationalism from supremacy because white nationalism, as in this case, is rooted in the idea that america's processes and systems are chiefly reserved for white people. the people like mohsen freemen, who are not, white should not have access, or be able to participate, or ensure the function of the same processes and systems. the same reason why trump and his attacks on new york state attorney general, letitia, james and manhattan district attorney alvin bragg, rod and fulton county district attorney, fani willis, have just a little more fight than some of the things he says about everyone else. giuliani's appeal to white

nationalism has now become quite costly. let's bring back david henderson and matthew doubt. david, i want to start. give me a reaction to this verdict, 100 and $48 million is a very, very costly verdict. >> it's a costly verdict, charles, and to be, honest this isn't just a win, this is one of the biggest winds i've ever heard of. when we're picking, juries one of the questions we always have to ask, is who here did not award money for the harm that i cannot show your receipt for. i cannot show you over a seat for pain. i cannot show you a receipt for suffering. people always raise their hands and say, look, if you can show me a, receipt i can give you money for it. not only did they give money, here they give 100 and $48 million. that is an epic victory. the only thing you have to acknowledge, and this goes to your point about nationalism, it does not make up for what these two women went through. rudy giuliani's and such a downward spiral.

they're not likely to see a dime of that money, and, the real issue here, you've got a preview from the way that the jury in georgia is going to receive them. giuliani, former president trump, and anyone in their circle, should be very nervous about this outcome. >> i think that's a great point about the fact that this is a verdict that once the judgment is actually entered by the judge, ultimately may not leave either freeman or smalls of much of what they were awarded. i think that that is unfortunate when they're talking about what justice looks like, even as they cannot be made whole. matthew, i want to ask you a big picture question. i think that there has been a lot of conversation about the notion of protecting democracy, democracy under attack. democratic institutions don't have -- can you talk about the notion that in this instance, these two women, these two black women ended up being the face of what happens when democracy

is actually attacked. the significance of that, as opposed to these baseless notions of institutions, and the idea of what democracy is? >> i'm glad you asked that. i've been trying to tie this together also with the weather i think you're appropriate comments about white nationalism in america today. so democracy is dependent on people like ruby, sheamus, because there are the people that actually conduct the elections and local after local. there are thousands and thousands of them, many of them who are volunteers, they're the ones that sit in the polls, take the, ballots and that's how democracy functions. without these people, democracy couldn't function. democracy is not just a blank, as you. say it's not about institutions serving while. is dependent on people, like ruby freeman and shaye moss, in order for them to function in this. what we have seen over and over is that it's not surprising

that cases like this is occurring at atlanta. largely, a majority, minority paul -- this is more of rudy giuliani has gone. look at a jurisdictional to jurisdiction. where they have created these conspiracies until these lies. is it places like atlanta, detroit, flint, places like philadelphia. it's in places like houston, dallas. what do they all have in common? every single one of them are majority minority populations in those cases. so it's not as if they're going to pick kansas, trying to discover election fraud, or des moines, iowa. they're going to all the places with large minority populations to try to discourage people from serving as poll workers, and as voting. for voting. >> i think that that's really well said. i think it's important to point it out, where this is occurring, and what the common thread is.

anyone who is doubting the notion that white nationalism is fueling these types of attacks, and this narrative, these are irrefutable results and evidence. david, i want to turn to you. good old rudy giuliani. he did not is case. on monday, after the last day of the trial, he doubled down on his claims against freeman and moss. do you think that this hurt his case? do you think that it made any difference? i would imagine, and i know a lot of people know, this trial, attorneys most people who are on the jury may not have access to that information. and any event, you think it made a difference? >> it's tough to, say at your point as well take. and the jury should not have had access to that information. at the same, time you have to think about this in context, in combination with what you've already been talked about in regards to white nationalism. this is not a trial the way we typically think that a case

goes to trial. they did not have to determine whether rudy giuliani defamed those two women. it was determined before the trial even began, yes. you to feign them. what is it going to cost you? he acknowledged he defamed them. he acknowledged he defamed them. then he had this press conference in the middle of the trial saying, no, i'm innocent, i should be here in the first place. these two ladies are wrong. okay, what time of my supposed to believe? you the time when you acknowledge she defamed them, or what you're saying now? it's a reflection about the limitation of agency that people have. now, as i say, that, again a should've impacted what the jury obviously did, but the other features are to look at here is that he chose not to take the stance. so what that means a, says his lawyers had a conversation and said, look, the only thing you can do is make this worse. so we're not even going to bring you up there. when that in mind, the jury returns the virtue of 100 $48 million. doesn't matter what he did?

no, but it was so bad to begin with, it may not have even made a difference in the grand scheme of things. >> david henderson in matthew dowd, thank you to you both for such an important conversation. coming up, we'll continue the discussion with the resident secretary of state, jocelyn benson. on that. new revelations about the trump campaign involving the 20 25th election campaign as well. you're watching a man on msnbc. we'll be right back, after a short break. stay tuned. break. stay tuned in, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. (♪♪) alice loves the scent of gain so much, and nutrients she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain! my mental health was much better. but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by

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solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. welcome back to ayman on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, and for ayman tonight. top michigan republicans have made a direct link between the elector scheme, which was designed to overturn the 2020 election, and donald trump's campaign. this revelation came this we from former michigan gop

communications director, anthony examine, in a priminary trial against a group of 15 republicans. now that group is facing felony forgery charges for serving as pro trump fake electors. they testified that it was a lawyer for trump's campaign in michigan, that dabbled in the fake elector meeting in the basement of the state party headquarters. that meeting took place on december 14th, 2020, this, group including former and currenparty officials, along with the party activists, and officeholders, including a wnip clerk. wow. all of the defendants have pled not guilty, but one. james runner. james runner had all of the charges dropped in october while after he reached a cooperation deal with the states. not good news for the other 14, i can tell you that, as a former prosecutor. trump campaign lawyers sean flynn has not yet publicly commented on the claim.

joining me now to discuss all of this is michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson. thank you so much for being here. secretary, i'd like to start. what is your reaction to this new alleged tie between the trump campaign and this fake electors plot? >> i'm not surprised. thank you, charles, for having me. it's great to be on here with you. you're doing a great job as the host, i'm really thrilled to see you here. i wasn't surprised at all. look, we love this. it was three years ago, but we saw this unfold firsthand as we, people showed up in front of our state capital, we got a call from the national archives that these fake electors certificate has been received. is never been a doubt to me that there is a direct line connecting trump and his campaign to the scheme in michigan, and these other states. it's gratifying to see this now be revealed, i guess you could say, and a court of law. so that we can get one step closer to true accountability for those who tried to support other people.

>> never in the history of american politics has secretaries of state been as popular as they are now. congratulations and with respect to everyone watching would everyone does. particularly in swing states. i want to ask, you theoretically speaking, now that we have reached this point, swore people know, specifically, and a states, this is another place where i can disrupt the process. we've seen challenges with respect to automatic recounts being triggered, but never before has a been we're going to try to disrupt things at the places where people are doing it now. have we reached a point where the notion of accepting the results of an election as being free and fair is just out of the question? >> well it has to be if our democracy is going to be surviving. we do have to get back to a place where facts rule the day. look, i welcome the greater scrutiny and spotlight on our work in michigan and on

battleground states around the country. election officials are professionals. we are bipartisan, by the book, and we make sure that their vote counts. the more transparency on the process, the more questions that are asked, the more work. this is how we stand up and do our job. come see for yourself a sucker the processes. i hope is that greater scrutiny will yield to a place where we can get back to. if somebody loses an election, they accept the result because they know truth is truth and facts are facts. the unfortunate facts is that alongside all of this increased scrutiny is that you have candidates refusing to accept the truth, and bill data on lies that lead to threats against us, the professionals, doing our jobs. then perhaps some accountability for that even as we've seen play out in georgia this week. >> given the swirl of misinformation that exists in the sphere now, just in terms of peoples access to this information, and how quickly it can spread, how much more difficult does it make your job in terms of getting the public to actually accept those

results when you do, with integrity and transparency, host an election? but there is minformation campaign that is actively trying to get pele to question, or have mistrust, and the system? >> in 2020, when we were planning for the election, we meticulously planned for every potential contingency, except the weeks and months of working to defend the accurate election results after the polls had closed, and the process of played itself out. we have now built in an entire segment of our preparation and planning for every election that takes into consideration the postelection challenges. it causes more resources to be devoted to fighting misinformation, and more resources to be devoted to building out plans to counter misinformation, counter the fake lawsuits, with the truth. it's taken a lot more work on that fronts. every step we take to fight misinformation is one step we take away from being able to do our jobs, which is making sure elections run smoothly.

we've got to do a lot more in the same amount of time, but we've stepped up every step of the way. we're meeting the moment. we're rejecting our democracy will counter misinformation, and hopefully seeking accountability for the lawyers in the court system. >> this is not necessarily the first impression case. it is a preliminary hearing that we're talking about, but we have some level of precedent over what's going on in nevada, as well as in wisconsin. do you have any faith that what happened, what is happened there could bode well for the future in terms of michigan and what is being looked into around this fake elector scheme here? >> yes. i'm really grateful for the attorney general, dana nessel, who from day one took this seriously. the minute we refer these fake elector certificates to her office, it has been meticulous that seeking justice. it's important to note that and every one of the states, the national conspiracy, as it were, to try to overturn the election results, would not have been fully possible if he didn't have a coconspirator in michigan, nevada, wisconsin,

and elsewhere. the fact that we now see these coconspirators either pleading, guilty or been part of a judicial process, legal process, puts us one step closer to ensuring that this doesn't happen again. that in 2020, four we've got more people in line with accepting the results of the election regardless of what they may be, as opposed to trying to challenge them, even though the evidence points to their accuracy. >> secretary benson, this is been an amazing conversation. i've got about 30 seconds left. i've got to ask, u.s. someone who oversees elections, what is your reaction to the verdict yesterday against rudy giuliani for attacking election poll workers, to the tune of 100 and $48 million. i keep saying this because that number needs to be emphasized. >> it's extraordinary. now that 148 millions million reasons why no one else should try to lie about attack, election workers in the field. i got choked up because i know giuliani well over the course

of this challenging time. they are tremendously professional people, and i'm really proud that they saw this through. it sends a strong message to anyone who would try to interfere with our elections, or track our election workers. if you do, so you may find yourself in court and facing bankruptcy and significant penalties. grateful for the process for plane out the way that here. >> a strong message indeed. michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson. thank you for being here on amin tonight. coming, up after the break, a big win for new york democrats ahead of the 2024 election. we'll get to that, and a lot more. stay tuned, you're watching eamon's nbc. i'm charles coleman junior, we will be right back. will be right back for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. rsv is out there. for those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy.

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msnbc. and charles coleman, junior and for a man. this week, moats took a major step towards retaking the house in 2024 with the new york appeals court they ordered the rejoin of the states congressional boundaries. e 43 opinion, the court ordered the states inpeent companion to submit a new map by the end of february, and, if the commission failed to agree on a proposal, the democratic -controlled state giator would take over this, process your democrats have been here before. last, year after the decision was deloed on the

restructuring plan, the legislature submitted a gerrymandered map that heavily favor democrats. at that point, the appeals court rejected the pros, and instead, ordered more district lines. >> as a result, new york republicans were going to give up house seats in the midterms. this is a bright spot on a mostly disappointing night, but, democrats may receive a better ruling this time, in part, because a moderate court member was replaced by a judge. see, kids, everything works together. let the party is expected to push for new map that could connect them between two and six house seats. the gop has held districts that are more likely to be affected in the suburbs of new york city. districts that strategists already considered vulnerable before tuesday's ruling since joe biden carry several of them by double digits in 2020. now, it's important to understand, this is

implications far beyond new york. new york's redrawn maps could offset gop gains in north carolina, where that state supreme court -- the could not republicans at least three seats. t three seats. see the dstudents...ith olay. students of any age, from anywhere. using our technology to power different ways of learning. so when minds grow, opportunities follow.

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live from miami, florida. we have lots of news to cover and lots of questions to answer. let's get started. and game -- after 40 witnesses and