of appeals rejected thibodeau's request for a new trial. gary's lawyer petitioned the court to reconsider. gary thibodeau was awaiting the decision until august 12th 2018 when he died in prison. his decades old battle to clear his name had finally come to an end. now, all of these new years later, the two families, the thibodeaus and allens are left with the same questions. what did happen to heidi and will we ever find a shallow grave? >> i think eventually something is going to talk. >> someone's going to say something. >> i might not know, i might have to wait. but i will die trying and fighting for her. >> she went to work early on an easter sunday morning and was never seen again. ♪♪ this sunday, targeting biden.

>> the resolution is adopted. >> the house votes to formalize 0 an impeachment inquiry of president biden. >> i think the evidence is compelling. >> even though republican lawmakers have yet to present any evidence linking the president to a crime. >> we don't know what the crime is. >> while the president's son defies demands he testify before congress. >> my father was not financially involved in my business. >> plus border battle. republicans call for major changes to u.s. border security in exchange for sending more aid to ukraine. >> putin is banking on the united states failing to deliver for ukraine. we must prove him wrong. >> the border is an absolute catastrophe and this is because of the policies of this white house. >> how far is president biden willing to go to get a deal? and reluctant voters. some democratic voters in michigan say if 2024 is a biden-trump re-match they'll grudgingly support mr. biden. >> there's no way i'm going to vote republican, but

reluctantly, yes, i will vote biden. >> why reluctantly? >> while others tell us they're not sure who they will vote for on election day. >> why are you still undecided? >> because i want the candidate i vote for to earn my vote. >> republican senator lindsay graham of south carolina and democratic congressman debbie dingell of michigan. joining me for insight and analysis are national security and pentagon correspondent courtney kube. geoff bennett, "pbs newshour." and former white house press secretary jen psaki and republican strategist matt gorman. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." from nbc news in washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with kristen welker. good sunday morning, in just hours there will be more urgent talks on capitol hill between

republicans, democrats, and white house negotiators as all sides aim to reach a deal to ramp up security at the border as part of a larger package that would provide more aid to ukraine and israel. bipartisan talks have zeroed in on gop proposals including those that would make it more difficult to claim asylum, seek parole and return to a trump-era policy that could trigger mass expulsions at the border. on saturday the white house met with leaders of the congressional hispanic caucus who expressed concerns democrats are poised to cave to senate republicans. >> i want to speak quickly to the democrats in the senate and others who are considering supporting this proposal. if you do so, we will be surrendering to right-wing racism, and more than that, you will be enabling it. >> senate democrats and the

white house must not agree to these extreme demands. >> it's a sign of how far the issue of border security has shifted to the right and how politically fraught it's become for a president who on his first day in office proposed a bill overhauling the u.s. immigration system withing a path to citizenship. he opened a formal impeachment inquiry this week, citing a goal of investigating financial links between president biden and his son hunter who was recently indicted on tax charges. so far republicans have not provided any evidence of a crime. this marks the fourth impeachment proceeding in the last 25 years. house speaker mike johnson denies the move is political. >> we're following the constitution, and i've made this very clear, remember, my background is constitutional law. we have no choice but to fulfill our constitutional responsibility. we have to take the next step. we're not making a political decision. it's not. it's a legal decision. >> but four years ago as former

president biden was being impeached, he warned it would cause irreparable damage to the country. >> the founding fathers warned against impeachments. this is the first time in 243 years that a president has been treated in this manner when one party has followed in and pursued a pre-determined political outcome. >> this week one republican congressman was even clearer. >> representatives, what are you hoping to gain from an impeachment inquiry? >> all i can say is donald j. trump 2024. >> joining me now is republican lindsay graham of south carolina. senator graham, welcome back to "meet the press." >> happy holidays. >> happy holidays. thank you for being here. let's start with the border negotiations. >> sure. >> there is so much focus on that. you've been so focused on this. can you bring us up to speed?

what's the very latest? do you think there's going to be a deal before the new year? with border security provisions that did nothing to change policy. we've been talking to him since september. five days ago they finally sat at this table. senator lanksford is doing a good job. the bottom line here is we feel like we're being jammed. we're not anywhere close to a deal. it will go into next year and let me tell you why it's good border deal. what the congressman said was pretty offensive. according to the fbi director last week he's never seen more threats of the homeland than he does today. wherever hey looks he sees blinking lights. the border has been obliterated since january '21 until now. we've had 6 million people come to date. there are 3.6 million on schedule to come this year alone. the policy choices that the biden administration has made the border a dangerous place to come to. america is under threat according to the fbi director since october 7th.

jihadist groups want to attack us because we're helping israel. i've never been more worried about a 9/11 than i am right now, and our border has been obliterated, and we're not going to give in on some band-aid fix. >> i want to talk about the proposals that are under discussion, but just to be very clear you're not close to a deal, but it sounds like there has been some measured progress. >> definitely, definitely there's been some progress. >> how would you characterize that progress? >> we have to make them do things they don't want to do, but they're getting there. it was a choice by the biden administration to change policy that led to this debacle, but there is progress on asylum. there's a ways to go on parole. you tell me ukraine's important, i agree with you. to all of the national security experts when they say if we don't help ukraine, the world can fall into chaos and putin would keep going, i agree with you.

but if you're a national security expert, you should have the same energy and vigor to fix a broken border. >> there are a complex set of factors which have led to the migrants. >> i don't buy that. i don't buy that. can i just comment on that? you chose to undo trump policies. you gave in to people like mr. castro. you've created a nightmare. it's bitten you in the ass and you need to change policy. it's not unseen factors. it's a policy choice, and we're not going to take a band-aid approach as a solution. >> let me ask you because democrats are also saying that what you are proposing would effectively shut down the border to families who are seeking asylum, who are running for their lives, senator. what do you say to that criticism? >> i would say asylum is being gamed. remember the guy who said thank you, president biden, and went

to new york? he says i'm not here to leave oppression. i'm here to have a better life. under the biden administration the asylum system has become a joke. >> senator, very quickly, would these proposals effectively shut down the border to asylum seekers and people who are running for their lives? >> 90% of the people who claim asylum are denied. so they're coming here for economic opportunity and not fleeing oppression. under international law you're supposed to apply for asylum in the third safest country if you're in an unsafe country. 90% of people would be denied, but biden chooses to ignore the law. this is not people running for their lives. they're running because the border is wide open. they think if they get here and make an asylum claim, they'd never leave. >> the administration is saying they're having tougher protections at the border. >> it ain't working. it ain't working. 11

11,000 people friday. >> let me ask you about ukraine because you just mentioned ukraine as well. if you break through this logjam at the border, you get ukraine. the last time you were on the program here's what you said about the need to fund ukraine. >> to my house colleagues, if you strip out ukrainian aid, russia will keep going and there will be a war between nato and russia and there will be a green light to china to invade taiwan. >> senator, this week you said, quote, i'm more worried about our border than ukraine 100%. if you don't get a deal from the border, are you willing to walk away from aid to ukraine, or is that not still essential? >> i am willing to help ukraine. the package sent over by the president was pretty robust. the package to help israel i'm 100% for. the package sent over to help taiwan, count me in. the border provision sent over in september are a joke. october 7th is a game-changer. the fbi director said he's never seen more threats to the

homeland than right now. jihadist groups want to hit us to punish us to help israel. i will not hope ukraine, taiwan, or israel until we secure a border that's been obliterated. you've seen from mr. castro the attitude here. anyone who wants to secure the border is a racist? that's b.s. >> let me just get your sense on how critical ukraine is though. do you still see -- >> 100,000%. >> do you see it as a national security? >> let me tell you what will happen if we pull the plug on ukraine. putin will keep going. we'll be in a war with nato. it would go into taiwan. it would be a national security nightmare for europe. if you don't help israel destroy hamas -- if hamas is still standing when this is over, god help us all. i get everything. where are the same people that lectured me on the border? our border is a national security nightmare. they chose bad policies. we're not going to continue

these stupid policies. we're going to change them. >> very quickly. do you think what is under discussion right now in the senate can get through the house wrl they're asking for some even tougher measures? >> if we make asylum really asylum and enforce the border policy and not do a blank it get-through, yes, it will get through. if you have real border security and i'm not asking for hr2. i've been doing this for 20 years. i know what works and what doesn't. they have made policy choices to obliterate the border. yes, the package can get through the house if it has real board are security. >> let's talk about israel which obviously is a piece of this, another week of devastating headlines out of the middle east including revelations that three hostages were killed by idf soldiers and jake sullivan was in the region. this week his message, the white house's message is israel needs

to do more to protect civilian lives. do you agree how the biden administration is handling this moment and this crisis? >> generally speaking, yes. the biden administration went to saudi arabia. normalizing relationships between saudi and israel is a big prize. i think the attack on october 7th was a march toward stopping organization. iran's biggest fear if the arabs reconciling with israelis. give israel the time and space to destroy hamas, and that's non-negotiable, but we need to think about the day after. >> is israel doing enough to limit civilian deaths, senator? >> i would hope they do more, but hamas schools are under. >> they're trying to revive the normalization efforts and they're right to do so, if you want to hurt iran long term don't help them to get away to reconcile between israel and saudi arabia? >> do you think that's possible? saudi arabia onboard with that? >> here's what's changed.

israel will demand security bumpers they've never demanded before because they can't afford another october 7th. and to my friends in israel, you do whatever you think is best for the state of israel, but i can tell you saudi arabia and other arab countries cannot normalize israel if they haven't been seen as throwing the we have two choices, continue the death spiral or use october 7th as a catalyst for change. i think the arabs are going to demand some form of two-state solution to recognize israel. i think israel is going to demand security buffers different than before, and they need to make those demands. i don't know how this ends, but i'll tell you this. if we don't go get this right this time, we're talking about another generation of tit-for-tat death. >> let's turn to the other big

story on capitol hill, the impeachment, of course -- the impeachment inquiry into president biden. chuck grassley said he does not see evidence, quote, that the president is guilty of everything. do you think there is evidence so far? >> i haven't paid that much attention to it. they have to prove that president biden shower financially benefitted from hunter biden's business dealings. we'll see. if there were a smoking gun, we'd be talking about it. the narrative that hunter biden present side falling a part. the idea that joe biden knew anything about the business dealings is falling apart. i'm not worried about impeaching the president. you know what i'm worried about? helping the president bring the mideast to a better spot, helping convince the arabs and israelis to not get iran off track and give israel a way to destroy hamas, secure a broken border before it's attacked and that's what i'm more worried about than anything. i've never been more woried about an attack on the homeland

than i am right now, and there's an opportunity in the mid east, in the middle of this carnage, rape, murder, torture, heartbreaking vigils. there is a chance to change things. that's what i'm working on. changing things for the better at home and abroad. >> before i let you go i want to get your reaction to something former president trump said and he was talking about the need to keep immigrants out of the country. i'll get your response. >> they're poisoning the blood of our country. they've poisoned mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in south america, not just the three or four countries that we think about, but all over the world they're coming into our country, from africa, from asia, all over the world. >> the biden campaign has accused former president trump of parroting adolf hitler. what is your reaction? are the president's comments representative of how you and other republicans feel? >> 76% of the american people, not donald trump, believe the border is broken.

they're worried about fentanyl coming over and killing their kids. >> but what about his language, senator, the poisoning the blood? >> i'm worried about an outcome. he is right -- he had the border secured, the lowest in four years in december 2020 to the biden administration, you're talking about donald trump's language that you sat on the sideline and allowed the country to be invaded and fentanyl is killing more people than -- >> just on the language. you have endorsed former president biden are you comfortable with him using words like that? >> you know, we're talking about language. i could care less what language people use as long as we get it right. i believe in legal immigration. i have no animosity to people trying to come to our country. i've had animosity against terrorists and drug dealers, but i understand why people want to come to america, but we have chaos and we need to create

order. if you think you're going to win the debate on illegal immigration by picking a line out of the trump speech, most americans understand that the game has to change, that we're under threat, that we're going to be attacked, that our border has been obliterated, and if you're talking about the language trump uses rather than trying to fix it, that's a losing strategy for the biden administration. >> do you think he would appeal to more people if he chose different words on that argument? >> think the president has a way of talking sometimes i disagree with, but he actually delivered on the border. people are looking for results. if the only thing you want to talk about immigration is the way donald trump talks, you're missing a lots. >> is the position of the republican that african-americans immigrants are poisoning the blood?

>> no, we've lost control of the border, terrorists are coming and there's never been a higher threat to the united states from a terrorist attack from a broken border, but immigrants and people coming to america, we are many people coming to be one. we've lost control of our border. there are people coming here selling drugs, and there are people coming here raping and murdering, and there are people coming here trying to have a better life. the terrorists are coming here to kill us. after october 7th how easy is it to get our country to kill a bunch of us? to my democratic colleagues, you're not going to get away with keeping this border broken. if you can't commit to securing our border, we're not going to have a deal. >> all right. well, we're going to watch those negotiations closely. we hope you'll come back to update us in the new year. senator lindsay graham, happy holidays to you. we appreciate it. when we come back, president biden is trailing donald trump. congresswoman debbie dingell of michigan is warning the

president needs do more to turn things around. she joins me next. things around. she joins me next.

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welcome back. joining me now is democratic congresswoman debbie dingell who has warned fellow d emocrats welcome back. joining me now is democratic congresswoman debbie dingell who has warned fellow democrats president biden's blue wall could be in trouble. congresswoman dingell, welcome back to "meet the press." >> kristen, it is great to be with you. >> we do appreciate it. i do want to start with what's happening in michigan. we'll get to that in a moment. let's talk about the other big news on capitol hill. i was just talking to senator graham about it, which is the decision by house republicans to open an impeachment inquiry into president biden. do you now see a full impeachment as inevitable? >> no, i don't because you need to have facts. in order to for the house to

pass impeachment, there's got to be facts. there's no there there. they can't find anything. there were a lot of arms broken. i've talked to those members whose arms were broken about even voting for this on the house floor, and i think it would be much harder to get the number they would require to have an impeachment if they don't find something, and they've been looking for something for a year and have not found it. the headlines are republicans, not democrats republicans and house members saying there isn't anything there and we can't find it. >> let me ask you about something that did get some attention this week. president biden has repeatedly said that he's never spoken to his son about his overseas business dealings, but hunter biden, who held a surprise news conference outside of the

capitol, had this to say this week. >> let me state as clearly as i can, my father was not financially involved in my business. >> the chairman of the house judiciary committee jim jordan seized on that moment. he said the language suggests that president biden has been involved in his son's business dealings, but just not financially. what do you make of that? how do you respond to that? >> i'll make it very clear. i don't care who you are a republican and democrat, no matter who you are, no one is above the law. there have been constant investigations since joe biden was president and vice president. i think he should be the hearings and they should be transparent and open, which hunter biden said he would go, and the donald trump court hearing should be open and transparent because i don't want -- excuse me for saying each people like you, kristen -- american people should see all of this straight up and see what's there and not there and

not have all of us commenting. >> hunter biden did defy a subpoena request. he said he would testify openly and not privately. do you think he should have defied that subpoena request? >> be transparent. make it open because i think too many people are coming out of this and implying things that are not true, and i think all of us have a right to know what the truth is. >> big picture, congresswoman, are you comfortable with a politician's family member profiting off of their last name in any way? >> look, i had my own career my whole life. i was married to congressman john dingell i was working before i ever married john dingell, and i had to work ten times harder than any other person just to show i could do the job. you have to be careful. we have to be open. you have to be transparent and

you have to work hard and you have to prove you can do the job. so if you have a last name that people know, does that mean you can't work? so you have to be open and transparent and i think that's the most important thing and you have to deliver for those you're working for. >> obviously, republicans proposing some tough, new measures at the border that would limit asylum and would limit parole and things that progressives say just are too extreme. would you vote for legislation that included some of those tough new measures? >> i'm not going to tell you what i'm going to vote for until i see exactly what's there. we have comprehensive immigration reform for decades and because it's so hard and emotionally charged we never get it done. we never get it done with republican presidents and we never get it done under democrat presidents and i will remind my dear friend lindsay graham, 9/11 happened under george bush. people came into the country. our national security is something we need to worry about everyplace every single day, and i share lynzee graham's worry about our national security.

i've had family members that have died from fentanyl. the president has been trying to get more custom and border patrol and law enforcement orders. we need to do something on immigration, but we need to do it in a right way that keeps compassion there, but protects our national security. so let me see what comes out of this and then i'll tell you what i'm going to vote on. >> what is your response when he says the border is broken under president biden? >> the border was broken under donald trump as well. we needed comprehensive reform for decades. small business is clamoring for people. we have care giving, which is in desperate shape, and some of these people need to be immigrants, but we don't want illegals and we don't want other people coming in. we don't want drugs coming across our border. we need a balanced, comprehensive immigration policy. >> would you support whatever the white house agrees to if they strike a deal? >> i don't ever say i will support something categorically until i see what it is. >> fair enough. this week i did have a chance to talk to some michigan democratic voters who supported president biden in 2020. now, two out of the five voters

i talked to say they're not so sure. they cite the economy and say, hey, we see the inflation is coming down, but we don't feel that in our pocketbooks. what do you say to those michigan voters? why should they vote for president biden when they're struggling to buy groceries? >> i know they're struggling because when i'm home and i'm at about at the farmers markets and the grocery stores and people are having a hard time. gas prices are coming down and food prices are coming down. there are a lot of things we'll have to do. first of all, people know that michigan is a purple state. i can't always convince people of that. this year these polls are saying, hey, debbie's right this time. and i was right in 2015 and 2016250. donald trump, we have to look at not words, but actions. when he was president he gave the rich tax cuts and increased prices too.

we have to talk about the economy and the jobs created and the investments that are going in and show what's been done. we have to show and remind them of the actions and not the words. >> one of the big issues for voters in michigan is the issue of how president biden is handling the war in the middle east with some calling to, quote, abandon biden over his handling of the israel/hamas war. michigan has one of the largest populations in the country. is there anything president biden can do to win back those voters? >> i lived in dearborn for 40 years with a man that i loved, and i moved last year because of redistricting. i know this community. they are hurting. all of us in this country need to understand what's happening in gaza right now. you can fight about how many thousands have been kill, but 6,000 to 8,000 children have

been killed. 85% of the people in gaza have had to leave their homes. they are living in shelters and disease is going up. there's one toilet for 220 people. one shower for 4,500 people. they don't have food. they don't have medicine. they don't have utilities. and i can't tell you the number of families that i've spoken to who have lost entire families, entire families. we have to show some empathy and compassion. a jewish baby and a palestinian baby are babies. i don't want to see any babies die. we have to have a cease-fire, and this has to stop, and i agree with lindsey. and if anything good comes out of this crisis, we need everybody to come together and get a strong two-state solution. >> congresswoman debbie dingell, thank you so much for your time this morning. i really appreciate it. so good to be with you. thank you. and when we come back, steve kornacki is here with a look at

key counties to watch in 2024. plus my conversation with those michigan democratic voters. rs

welcome back. this morning something we are so excited about. we are rolling out the deciders. it's a new county-level initiative featuring in-depth on-the-ground reporting from a team of nearly 20 journalists focused on the 2024 presidential race in seven key counties all around the country. i am joined by our national political correspondent steve kornacki who has more. hi, steve. what do you have? >> hi, kristen. love this, too, because there are more than 3,100 counties across the united states, but we've got serve and you see them on the screen here. as you say, we will drill down now through election 2024. i think they're going to help us tell a story, and we'll put a pin on them because on election

night next year, they are all going to loom large for different reasons. let's take you through this morning as a preview and a taste. let's take you through three of them and why they're on this list and what we're looking for. let's start in the northwest corner of pennsylvania. erie county here. it is close to cleveland or buffalo as it is to pittsburgh and it is the ultimate blue collar swing county. just give you a sense here of how erie county has moved. go back here to 2008 when barack obama first won and won -- run and won. look at this. landslide for obama in erie county. 2020's obama re-election and landslide and donald trump shows up in 2016. look at the shift. one of those obama/obama/trump counties.

we saw them across the country, and they're the reason trump won in 2016. large white population, very blue collar. lower college degree percentage than you see statewide and trump really capitalized in '16 and in 2020 when joe biden won pennsylvania in the presidency, he carried erie county, barely, and it is only one of two counties in the state of pennsylvania that joe biden flipped and it was a big reason why biden was able to win the election and how erie goes in pennsylvania in 2024 could well tell you how the state of pennsylvania is going and let's go south now and take a look at miami-dade county, florida. this is a massive county. nearly 3 million people, nearly 70% hispanic and we say we're looking for the latino vote. the latino vote. we've talked about it since the 2020 election. trump made big inroads and none bigger than in miami-dade. in 2016 he won by more than 30 points to hillary clinton, in to 20, you can see it right here, joe biden only won miami-dade by seven. and in 2022, ron desantis running for re-election as governor of florida, he won miami-dade by more than 11

points. and statewide in florida, we are asking the question in 2024. those gains republicans have made with hispanic voters, have they locked them in? are they expanding on them? miami-dade is one of the first in the county and we'll get results from and we'll get an answer to the question very early in '24, and we'll lay in wisconsin. look, the swingiest of swing states and biden won this by 20,000 in 2020 and trump won it by a small margin in 2016. where did biden's win come from. a few places here, but one that stands out is dane county. you see the biggie here in the middle of the state. college dedicated. university of wisconsin is hire, and what you see at dane county, it's long been a democratic county. activation, motivation, it's absolutely sky high with this demographic, college-educated, democratic-leaning voters in the 2020 election. the turnout in dane county was nearly 90, 9-0 percent. joe biden won this overwhelmingly.

it used to be that milwaukee was the one they looked at for big margins. now they look at dane county. every election, the enthusiasm and the turnout of their base is so much in this trump era. we'll be looking here for clues not just to see how wisconsin goes, but there are a lot of counties across the country. are democrats getting the sky-high turnout from the core base of college-educated voters and just a few things we're looking for in this exciting project, kristen. >> it is exciting. those counties will keep our correspondents and us so busy. steve kornacki, so great. thank you so much for joining us. and this morning as we just heard from congresswoman debbie dingell, there are startling warning signs from president biden in battleground states such as michigan. we went to mccomb county and spoke to a group of women who supported mr. biden in the last election, but are now reluctant

to commit to supporting him again. the question is not trump versus biden is will they show up or stay home? >> a show of hands, who has decided on who they'll vote for in 2024? >> okay. so three out of five of you. why are you still undecided? >> because i want the candidate that i vote for to earn my vote. >> i will probably agonize again once i'm in the ballot box about what to do, how do i do this? >> i'm not going to vote for a republican. i'm trans. i feel like that's almost, like -- it's almost like a death sentence, but when it comes to democrats, i just don't really see anyone who really feels like they'll be a strong pick who is running. >> so are you saying that you at this point are planning to vote for president biden, but reluctantly? >> very reluctantly? >> are you going to votes for

president biden again? >> yes. >> why? >> i may not be as enthusiastic as him as a candidate, but i am as to some of the things he's done, reducing insulin to $39, and repairing the infrastructure, the american care acted. there's a lot of things he's done. >> there's no way that i'm going to vote republican, but reluctantly, yes, i will vote biden. >> why reluctantly? >> i don't -- i really don't agree with his dealings with the middle east right now. also his age. >> jessie, what about you? would you support a third-party candidate or consider supporting a third-party candidate? >> it would depend on who that candidate is. however, i don't think a two-party system is working for america anymore. >> and, terri, would you consider voting for a third-party candidate?

>> i don't know. i feel compelled to, but i really feel as though my vote will be just wasted and my vote counts. >> shelly, what about you? >> the power. yeah, that's the problem. >> how do you see a third party? >> as a dream, but not a reality. i mean, in my ideal world i see it as -- as a party that is truly for the people, by the people, and i don't see people having that power and that respect. >> let me follow up with you on that, jackie. are you concerned that people are going to stay at home and not vote in 2024? what are you hearing from the community around you? >> pretty much what i said. they're not enthusiastic about either candidate, but they don't want or the other to get in. so they'll vote against someone more so than voting for someone.

>> shelly, what are you concerned about -- >> i am concerned people will stay home. >> there are a lot of people that i know that are completely checked out of the game. it feels like it's already lost and it doesn't feel like we're getting the progressive change that we were all sort of promised. >> where does the economy fit into how you are viewing 2024? how do you feel about the economy? >> i mean i don't feel great. i was today even more shocked because sometimes i think i put my head in the sand with the economy -- i don't like my car. maybe i'll get a new car, and i saw the car rates and i thought, okay, i'm not getting a new car. >> our economy is better than what it has been. is everything affordable? no. everything is going up quicker than our checks are. >> right. >> if you could come up with one word to describe president biden what would it be? i'll start with you. >> tired.

>> one word, he just seems out of it, honestly. >> status quo. >> caring. >> honestly, it doesn't have to do with politics, family. he cares a lot about his family. >> our thanks to them for that revealing conversation. you can see more of my conversation with michigan voters at meetthepress.com. when we come back, the house has only voted to impeach a president four times in history. what are the political lessons of what was once the most rare form of punishment for a sitting president?

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welcome back. this week house republicans welcome back. this week house republicans voted to formally open an impeachment inquiry into president biden, though, they have not yet produced any evidence showing the president profited off of his son's business dealings. this is the fourth impeachment proceeding in the last 25 years, raising the question how is all of this impacting the country? in 1998 president clinton was impeached on charges of perjury and obstruction. he was acquitted in the senate, but many saw a process that deepened america's polarization. republican congressman henry hyde was the chief impeachment manager for clinton's senate trial. >> mr. chairman, what's all this done to our politics?

>> i think our politics has suffered, i hope not a mortal blow, but certainly a serious blow. the name-calling, the negativity, the throwing of mud, the institution of the white house, the presidency and congress itself, people are looking at this in horror. we have got to conduct ourselves appropriately with some dignity, with some purpose, and that's my aim. i am not trying to stretch this out. i'm not trying to take political advantage of it. this helps nobody. and when we come back, the panel is next. panel is next.

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welcome back. the panel is here. welcome back. the panel is here. nbc news national security and pentagon correspondent, courtney kube. geoff bennett, co-anchor of "pbs newshour." matt goreman, former

communications adviser for tim scott for america and jen psaki host of "inside with jen psaki" and former white house press secretary. thank you all of you for being here. jeff, let me have you kick it off. you heard from those voters in michigan. two of them are undecided. >> yeah. >> how concerned should the biden campaign be? how concerned are they? >> there is legitimate reason for concern. it hinges on his ability to resurrect the electability from 2020. that coalition is softening and in some cases splintering. i think you could make the argument that the biggest hurdle this president faces is that democratic base voters in battleground states give him little marks for his handling of the economy and that's a conundrum, even as the economy gets stronger, historically low unemployment and high consumer confidence and inflation in the country is easing faster than other part of the world, there are other parts of the electorate that don't feel that and not seeing it. so president biden has to find a way to sell his agenda, to

soften the discontent and the disillusionment, and the questions about his age. and, bottom line, campaign officials believe that if it's a choice between donald trump and joe biden, voters will break for joe biden because of donald trump's authoritarian impulses, the gop's position on abortion. that might not show up in the polls, but it's been borne out in previous elections. >> what about that? you heart congresswoman dingell say hey, i sounded the alarm bells in 2015 and 2016, and i'm sounding them again. >> i think if you're in the biden campaign right now you need voters to feel a couple things. you need to be scared of trump being re-elected. it's good for them in these polls in some ways to instill fear in democrats and wake them up and you also need people to be energized and what they saw in the fascinating focus group you just did in michigan is that people are scared. and i'm thinking of the trans woman who is talking about the impact of trump being reee lectsed and they're not

energized, and this fear of people staying home is something i hear from democrats over and over and over again. of young people staying home and base voters staying home and people not being energized. so yes, the economy they need to run into a draw and that's what the biden campaign needs to do and they need to get people energized around issues like abortion, around a threat of a trump second term and a range of things that will get people off of their couches and out to the polls. >> and, matt, what are you hearing around republican circles because some people i speak to say inflation is coming down. there's a real chance that by election day that divide that the voters are talking about where they don't feel that the economy is getting better could start to turn a little bit of a corner. >> it's certainly possible, but for right now, the chasm is big, and the lady talking about trying to buy a car. all of those markets, it's so hard to finance those things. you see it every day, and so republicans are going to press that advantage as much as possible because in their mind we go from bill clinton's "i

feel your pain" to joe biden saying your pain isn't rule, and with immigration. coming up with tim scott, that is such a huge issue not just in border states and debbie dingell touched on fentanyl and this touches so many different counties in america and by biden taking a deal if one is offered that's a huge general election help for him. it really means a lot. >> i agree with matt. this is something that the base voters and the democratic party will hate and will be outraged by and there will be a lot of people in the white house who will not love details of this, but in the general election electorate, there is a fear of chaos at the border, border security. it's a real issue. it doesn't mean it's entirely valid, but it's a perception challenge. >> kourts, let's talk about this potential deal because ukraine is a piece of it, and president zelenskyy was here trying to make the case. how desperately do they need? give us a reality check and what came of that? >> they need it. they cannot win the war without this continued aid.

there have been some small tactical gains, even just this week actually. we saw the iranians were able to push into an area east of the dnipro river and that gave them the ability to bring supplies and throughout the winter, small, hard-fought, costly tactical gains, but it will take many of those before we see any kind of breakthrough here, and the realts is the u.s. has been giving them $44 billion in aid and equipment since the invasion and we're still seeing a war of inches at this point, and it's been a very difficult realization, but we're even starting to see some wavering support among senior military officials and publicly, absolutely not. they're still all in for ukraine. privately, we're starting to talk about the fact that this is a stalemated war, and even with this extensive amount of support that the u.s. has been giving them, they still are not seeing

any major breakthroughs. >> such a significant revelation. jeff bennett, there is this impeachment inquiry that has been opened up. could president biden use this moment to try to galvanize his base around him and could it backfire against republicans? what are the politics of this? >> it certainly could. the risk of politics is never before in the history of this country has a presidential inquiry moved forward in the absence of credible evidence, and that's what house republicans are doing. typically they do the investigate of work on the front end and find evidence of wrongdoing and move on from there. that's not what happened here. the risk for republicans is that come election day they are seeing focusing on the wrong things and not focusing so much on the economy and immigration and on what could be potentially be a meritless impeachment, and the thing for the white house is it could become a distraction. >> you had this surprise press conference by hunter biden. did it help or did it hurt? >> please, hunter biden, we know your dad loves you, please stop talking in public. this is not helpful at the same

time, the president loves his son and that is appealing. he loves his son, he loves his family, and he's worried his mental health, but the white house would like him to go away right now. >> they need to continue to emphasize this is not articles of impeachment and the biggest difference between now and '98 with henry hyde, to your appointed, job is not using this to rally democrats around him, and that's a very different thing. >> not yet. >> we'll see. court, the world is watching. here we are, two foreign wars. how do allies and enemies to the united states watch the divisions play out here? >> you know, the u.s. has been increasingly more isolated on the world stage in the wake of what's been happening in israel. october 7th, the entire world rallied behind israel, but as we've seen this continuing

humanitarian suffering, lack of food and water in gaza, continuing strikes and ground offensive by the israelis, even this week we heard about three hostages who were killed by idf soldiers, and israelis will investigate that, of course, but that is putting growing and mounting pressure on the u.s. and we saw that with jake sullivan's visit and saw it with secretary austin. >> we sure will. happy holidays. great conversation. that is all for today. thank you for watching. we will be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." the