pause they think there's a way for democrats to spin this in their favor. >> we're seeing the white house, which has been largely hands off when it comes to legislative issues over recent months, being more involved here, including white house chief of staff jeff sainz heading to the hill in recent days. congressional reporter for "politico," ursula perano, thank you for joining us. thank you to all of you for getting up way too early on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts now. president biden released a new video with barack obama in which they remind people that obamacare is still available, but according to polls, people really want to know if obama is still available. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, december 18th. donald trump is using more fascist rhetoric on the campaign trail. we'll see you the latest disturbing comments from the former president. also ahead, we're going to go through the massive civil

ruling against rudy giuliani, a sum that will bankrupt the former mayor of new york city. >> his attorney said it is basically a death penalty for him, an economic death penalty. plus an update from capitol hill on foreign aid negotiations, the package which would provide critical funding for ukraine. it's been held up by republican demands for stricter immigration policies. >> but it looks like there's progress there. >> might be some. we'll get analysis on the biden administration's push to get israel to scale back its war in gaza, what's going on there. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. former state department official, elise jordan. "politics nation" reverend al sharpton. and presidential chair at

vanderbilt university, historian jon meacham is with us. so let's get to it. at a rally on saturday, donald trump again used the language of 20th century authoritarians while separately praising this country's strong men. he also spoke of the people who attacked the capitol on january 6th as immigrants, saying they're poisoning our country. >> it's like a rocket ship sent by kim jong-un, just like that, who is very nice, i will tell you. he's not fond of this administration, but he is fond of me. we had a very good relationship. vladimir putin of russia says that biden's -- and this is a quote, politically motivated persecution of his political rival is very good because it shows the rottenness

of the american political system. viktor orban of hungary said trump is the man who can save the western world. can you imagine president xi of china, powerful guy -- they hate when i say that. he controls 1.4 billion people rather ruthlessly, right? i will direct a completely overhaul doj to investigate every radical, out of control, fake, crooked prosecutor in america, for their illegal racist in reverse enforcement of the law. if you remember, in minnesota, minneapolis, where they took over the police station, they took it over and burned it down. by the way, what happened to those people? are those people in jail with the j-6 hostages? what happened to those people, come to think of it? they're not in jail with the j-6 hostages. i don't call them prisoners, i call them hostages. they're hostages. we have a lot of work to do. you know, when they let, i think the real number is 15, 16

million people into our country, when they do that, we have a lot of work to do. they're poisoning the blood of our country. the crime going to be tremendous. the terrorism is going to be -- terrorism is going to be -- we built a tremendous piece of the wall, and we're going to build more. >> all right. once again, i misspoke. it is the centuries strong men he was talking about. >> right. >> again, why do we show this? we always get that question, why do you give him attention? actually, this cannot be normalized. and he is the republican frontrunner. he is, so far, the republican's choice. >> yeah. well, it's getting more explicit. it's getting worse. i am still shocked by the clowns who claim to be media critics out there, just absolute clowns that attack the media for reporting this. it sounds like you just don't get it.

you don't understand his connection with the audience. you have to understand, you're actually helping him by focusing on, you know, saying he is fascist. jon meacham, this is very straightforward. i just -- writing it down, he calls the worst tyrant on the planet, the most cruel tyrant, kim jong-un, says he is very nice. that biden doesn't have a good relationship with him, but he does. most presidents would take great, great honor in not having a good relationship with that thug. then vladimir putin, and this is the one that really sticks with me, is donald trump is always talking about how horrible america is, how terrible america is, when he's not in office. he did it before. he is doing it after. he quotes vladimir putin approvingly to talk about how rotten american democracy is. he quotes president xi, says

that he's rather ruthless and praises him, points to the media and says, "they don't like it when i praise him." then goes on to praise him for being a guy that's got concentration camps with millions of people in it, says rather ruthless. talks about the january 6th hostages. we're talking about people who beat the hell out of cops. then, of course, goes back to echoes of adolph hitler, talking about poisoning the blood of this country. it's getting more explicit. and the fact that fools that are covering the horse race would somehow attack writers, journalists for recording this and putting it to the readers without an explanation, "oh, but he's also talking about economics they related to,"

seems to somehow -- talk about missing the much bigger point. we're in a fight for american democracy, and he's becoming more and more explicit on how he wants to take american democracy down. >> we will never be able to say we were not warned, right? >> right. >> we can move that off the table. there's no surprise attack here. this is explicit. it's clear. just listen. you're right, people who -- i never can remember the phrase, or i don't know if we're wetting beds or being hysterical or what it is, but words matter. rhetoric, the root of the word "rhetoric" is action. if you don't think this is serious, i don't think you're even remotely paying attention. i think one of the problems with the current era is that too many of us, and i've been one, too,

so this is a sinner, not a saint talking, just to say the least, is many of us have applied conventional rules of gravity, conventional rules of analysis, conventional rules of politics to what is an unconventional force. that is, it opportunity matter anymore whether joe biden had a good week or a bad week. it doesn't matter if the white house staff is arguing about x or y. than an analog way of envision ing our politics in what is an unfolding disaster. i don't think it's -- in fact, it's not simple, but to use your word, it is straightforward. my final view of this is, we're on trial here. the american people are on trial

here. to the 15%, 20% of republicans who do know better, i'm guessing, but who, for various reasons, cannot bring themselves to ending this, to voting against this fascistic force, i would just say, you're a lot richer today than you were seven days ago, and you know i'm right. you all have -- you know, we've made some money here. this is not a disastrous era. you know, there's not economic carnage in the streets for these elites, and, yet, these elites are making this possible. i think that insofar as those folks can be reached, please, please, please, listen to what your putative nominee is saying. >> yes. >> jonathan? >> this is a moment where, elise, we have donald trump quoting vladimir putin.

we have him praising xi, kim jong-un, orban. we have him referring to january 6th convicts as hostages. and we have him using language that evokes what adolph hitler used to say. those in the white house said to me, they've made a compelling case in recent months, the biden white house, that they feel americans are not paying attention right now. it's too early. people are not paying attention. next spring, after the republican primaries, which are not competitive are over, and americans start actually listening to donald trump as we move into the summer, move into next fall, and it's a general election between biden and trump, when americans start paying attention again, they will hear this from trump and reject it. they'll say, we can't go down that path again. we can't go down that path again. my question, though, is, as trump's poll numbers are only going up, both in the republican primary and now, general election survey after general election survey, he's ahead of biden in most surveys, and "the

wall street journal" just moments ago, said americans feel better about his policies than they do biden's, my question is, are we sure americans are going to care? >> i don't think so. i think you're going to have a week before the election, maybe 50 million low information voters voting on how they feel the economy is doing right then, that week in october, 2024. i think that you see the extremism of american politics right now. you see the radicalization of so many of donald trump's supporters who are fine with his most extreme statements. they're fine with imprisoning journalists they disagree with. they're fine with, you know -- they think that the political opposition is the enemy. so many americans believe that now on the left and on the right. when we become enemies and there's not any common ground worth finding with the other side whatsoever, how do you have a functioning democracy? >> i think that that is going to

be the real test of the democratic party, to really say to people, "is this who you are?" when he stands up there and explicitlybraces dictators and strong arm people and quotes them commenting on an american election, if you vote for that, then you're all right with that. that's what democrats have to say. when he talks about how people from non-white countries in central america and africa, he names them, says that they are poisoning the blood of the country, which is as racist as you could get, i mean, what does he have to do, put on a klan robe, then you'll think he's racist? that's what you think of yourself, that you're poisoning the blood of america, if you vote for him? it's not about biden. it's about who you are as a voter. are you co-signing this kind of

politics? joe and mika, i think this is what the real test for the democrats are, is to not make it about them. have everyone put a mirror in front of them and say, "is this who i am? am i a racist? am i one who believes in fascism?" >> yeah. jonathan lemire, let me ask you, though, you know, one year from now, it can be over. american democracy can be over. donald trump a year from now could win. he told us what he is going to do. when i say american democracy is going to be over, i haven't said this. donald trump said it. he's the one talking about executing generals that are not loyal to him, a guy talking about terminating the constitution if it gets in the way of his power. he's a guy talking about taking off news networks that he disagrees with. he is the guy that's talking about prosecuting and putting in jail people who disagree with him. he's the one saying that.

the american experiment at an end, one year from now. let me ask you, with that being the case and with joe biden's poll numbers getting worse, why is the white house going around singing, "don't worry, be happy"? that's basically what they're saying. why does joe biden still have his campaign people inside the white house? when are they going to go out and start working on the campaign, not of his lifetime, of our lifetime? when are they going to start acting like american democracy is on the line and stop telling everybody to not worry? >> yeah, i'll start by echoing what you just said. anyone who thinks donald trump can't win is kidding themselves. he absolutely can win. he has a one in two chance of winning. that's how close this is. i don't think we have enough evidence to suggest that his legal troubles next year will derail him. there's poll after poll -- >> they won't. >> really good work done over the weekend that suggests even a conviction in one of the case, likely the federal election

interference case, wouldn't do enough to dent his support. he could still win even if convicted. now, this is a -- the biden campaign has been slow, by design, in ramping up. they have spent the last few months raising a lot of money. the president, particularly in recent weeks, has gone from fundraiser after fundraiser, night after night. they think it'll be a billion dollar campaign, and they need the money. that's been their focus. they also don't really have any democratic primaries. yes, dean phillips, whatever. he is largely being unchallenged here. they think they have the luxury of time. that said, they already did respond to some pressure about a month or so ago, and they started ramping up the contrasts between trump and biden. they have done that. it's been a solid month that they've been on the offensive, including pouncing on trump's comments over the weekend, the hitler comparison. we had statements from the campaign and white house. but, you're right, the full-fledged campaign is still a month or two or more away. they're letting the republican process play out before they really ramp up. that's at least the plan for now. not to say it can't change, but

we're not going to see president biden aggressively be out on the campaign trail for some weeks ahead. there are democrats who echo your worries, who feel it might be getting too late. get out there now. >> maybe they'd want to move some of the people from the white house that actually run campaigns over to run a campaign when we are less than one year away from democracy possibly ending. >> we will talk about this in a moment. coming up in one minute, rudy giuliani is on the hook for almost $150 million that a federal jury has ordered him to pay to georgia election workers who he falsely accused of ballot fraud. we'll talk to chuck rosenberg about the verdict and much more. "morning joe" is back in 60 seconds. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. only pay for what you need. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses

move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. quality. movement. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. now, giuliani has already been found liable. this trial was to determine

damages, which ultimately came to $148 million. frankly, he didn't help himself by showing no contrition and actually repeating his claims outside court on monday. just watch as his spokesman tries to shut him down. >> i told the trout. truth. they were engaged in changing votes. >> there's no proof of that. >> you're damn right there is. stay tuned. >> rudy giuliani you see today is the same man who cleaned up the streets of new york, took down the mafia -- >> manipulation isn't proof. >> come on, we're going to our car. >> wow, there is so much there that is pathetic. that man is desperately trying to coast off the guy giuliani was 20 years ago. it is the rare attempt to "weekend at bernie" someone who is still alive. also, he bailed on the defense mid-sentence. yeah, i was going to get to 9/11, but this has been a disaster. just get in the car, rudy. >> former trump lawyer rudy

giuliani has been ordered to pay $148 million in damages for his role in defaming two 2020 election workers. an eight-person jury decided on the final amount after a four-day civil trial that saw ruby freeman and her daughter, shaye moss, testify that lies spread by giuliani after the election led to them receiving a wave of racist and violent threats. giuliani, along with the former president trump and others, repeatedly amplified false conspiracy theories that freeman and moss were trying to change ballots in georgia. during the course of the trial, giuliani admitted these claims were untrue. freeman spoke to reporters after the trial on friday. >> today is a good day. a jury stood witness to what rudy giuliani did to me and my daughter and held him accountable. for that, i'm thankful.

for now, i want people to understand this, money will never solve all of my problems. i can never move back into the house that i called home. i will always have to be careful about where i go and who i choose to share my name with. i miss my home. i miss my neighbors. i miss my name. >> my god. >> you know, it's unbelievable. giuliani had a statement. >> take it down. >> well, he says the amount is absurd. what's absurd is that soon after the election, after rudy giuliani spread that lie, people that i know from all over the country that supported donald trump were saying, "did you see

what happened in georgia? did you see what happened with the votes? did you see those two black women, what they did with the votes? they took the votes out of a box." like, that happened because of rudy giuliani, and that lie was spread -- >> and donald trump. >> -- was all over the country. and donald trump. it was all over the country. their lives as they knew it effectively ended that day. >> two election workers. think about it, the people serving the community. >> two election workers. >> let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg. chuck, when you look at this outcome, what are the implications for other cases for donald trump? and i think the question everybody asks is, will rudy giuliani ever have to pay a dime of anything to anybody, or how does he actually truly experience accountability here? >> yeah, you know, that's a great question, mika.

so the jurors' verdict, the $75 million in punitive damages sends a very clear signal to anybody inclined to do what mr. giuliani did not to do it. what he did was vile and egregiously wrong and dangerous. i don't know he has the money to pay. i think the odds of ms. freeman and ms. moss getting $148 million are about 148 million to 1. it is very unlikely to happen. they may get something. they certainly deserve it. their reputations -- >> but what's the impact on rudy giuliani's life moving forward? what's the impact on his life after this verdict? >> you know, he is a broken man, joe. i've never really enjoyed, you know, this whole thing of schadenfreude, taking delight in the misery of others. that's not my thing. so what happens to him? the implications of a civil verdict pale in comparison to

the implications of a criminal verdict against him. remember, he's still under indictment in georgia. there is still a chance he gets convicted and goes to jail. the implications for him there are much more severe and much more significant than they are here. does he ever have to pay money to these two good women? i hope so. will it be $148 million? not a chance. but the implications for him in other matters that he faces are incredibly significant. he could go to jail. >> reverend al, this is obviously a case you know a good bit about and followed it closely. what's your reaction to a verdict? again, this is not about schadenfreude. this is about a man who destroyed two women's lives because they wanted to serve their country. >> a man that -- >> still defaming them. >> and he ruined their lives, and he continues to defame them even today. >> he ruined their lives because he saw them as collateral damage

to his political ends. he saw them as worthless. i think what the verdict and the amount that the jury gave is to show they're not worthless. whether they ever get $148 million or not, the value of their lives has been affirmed by this jury. that's important. and we must remember, rudy giuliani and i never got along, antithetical, but i hate to see anyone who was the u.s. attorney of the most celebrated district in the country, and the mayor of the city of new york for eight years, became america's mayor, fall like this because it damages our perception of what those offices hold. so even though i dislike a lot of what rudy giuliani stood for and the like, it is not good for us to have people who reached that level to fall like this. the reason he was believed is

because of the positions he held. he took a stellar background and position and jumped on these innocent women that he felt was defenseless, just like we fought over issues like stop and frisk. he felt people didn't matter. this verdict says people do matter, and you can't use them as pawns for your political objectives. i think that's the significance of it, but i agree with chuck, i don't think we ought to celebrate the demise of rudy giuliani. we ought to celebrate that people worth has been underscored by this jury. no one is expendable. >> and i understand that. i certainly am not interested in celebrating anybody's demise. at the same time, when donald trump has this civil suit, when e.j. carroll sues him for defamation, and now these two women win a massive amount in a defamation ruling, the question

is, do people who are sued and lose in these civil suits actually experience any ramifications? are can they declare bankruptcy, skirt the law? i wonder, beyond the message that they have value and they were defamed, the guy continues to defame them, so i want to understand what the consequence is that actually stops the behavior, the abuse. >> bankruptcy won't protect rudy giuliani. i do want to say this, jon meacham, and then we'll circle back to chuck. jon, it seems like the longest time, he could say whatever he wanted to say in the world of trump, in trump's bubble, and it just didn't matter. you would have people go on tv every night lying through their

teeth, spreading vicious lies, attacking american democracy, saying american democracy was rigged. and we see with rudy giuliani 188 -- $148 million defamation verdict. we saw with fox news after their hosts lied about voting machines. $787 million verdict. we saw with alex jones lying about sandy hook parents, a $1 billion verdict. there is still another billion or two to be sorted out for fox news, again, moving forward. in the law, there's always been the verdict and the collection. there are lawyers up and down the east coast who will take that verdict and will spend the rest of rudy giuliani's days trying to recover that verdict

because they'll strike a deal or get a percentage of whatever is recovered for rudy giuliani. jon, as far as a fair and open debate, i think it is worth celebrating that words still do matter. for llies, for defamation, for attacking people, attacking american democracy, it still comes at a cost. >> i think a lot of it, don't you, and assess the validity of this statement as college exams say, i think a lot of this came out of the -- the phrase is not mine -- but the political entertainment media complex that has been so strong on the american right. there's this capacity, this willingness, has been this willingness to live in this world where everything was about

the cable hit, right? everything was about stirring up the base because the pace is what kept your ratings strong. i think this was a case where there was this almost pretend world and actually, now the folks who say this stuff realize that it's not pretend. this is quite real. there are people who are trying to count ballots. there are people who are trying to ensure free and fair elections. there are people, there are judges and judges clerks, right? there are prosecutors. there are the civil servants that the president and the governor of florida both promised to fir as quickly as they can. so there are these people who make american democracy work. is it perfect?

no. as a large, human enterprise, is it more perfect than we have a right to expect? yeah, i think so. so why aren't we lifting up the process? why aren't we reaffirming these guardrails, which is what the founders wanted, which is what conservatives, hello, are supposed to want, right? >> yeah. >> there is an entire judicial philosophy that is dominant on the supreme court for all sorts of political reasons that's about the original intent of a document that is about checking ambition. it's going to -- if it is going to take the civil courts, if it is going to take the criminal courts to do it, then let's pray and work for the legitimacy i of those institutions. will any of this change the 2024 election? i don't know. but i do know this, we're

certainly not going to do ourselves any favors if we shut up about it and say, oh, it's really about the economy. >> right. >> a presidential election is about whatever x hundred million people want it to be about. but it seems to me the obligation of folks who want the constitution to ensure is to defend that constitution. again, it's not simple. it's not simple, but it is straightforward. >> exactly. people who claim to be conservatives are the people who are supposed to conserve what is great, what is best. conserve the constitution of the united states. conserve what is best about this country. this weekend -- and not stay silent, as you say, jon, as people are attacking america. this weekend, you had the guy who is most likely going to be the nominee for the republican party, the so-called conservative party, and what did

he do, elise? he quoted vladimir putin in talking about how rotten america was. so-called conservatives constantly attacking and bashing the united states' military, our men and women in uniform who are stronger now than they've ever been. yet, you have republican senators that are saying they're weaker now than they've ever opinion, just because they don't like who is in office for three or four years. so you have one institution after another, you have so-called conservatives saying that they want to tear down the fbi, they want to tear down the justice department, they want to tear down education, they want to tear down the military, and, again, here we have donald trump praising dictators from north korea and communist china and russia. again, quoting a russian tyrant who says american democracy is, quote, rotten. and donald trump quotes that

person positively and channels adolph hitler. when lindsey graham is asked about it, he says he couldn't care less. how's that for conserving what's most precious about our constitutional republic? >> i mean, donald trump consistently demonstrates that he has no concern for american strength, american greatness, the american people outside of his own personal self-interest. that's why he is happy for any foreign dictator to do anything that might, by some extension, reflect poorly on biden's leadership. you're looking at how he is getting his radicalized supporters ready for this next round. it's not about specific policy issues as much as it is his grievances, and the grievances he is channelling through them and that he represents at this stage. the comments are so stark and so

disgusting, and just the historical parallel is so chilling that it is unbelievable that we still, at this phase, don't take it that seriously. we know history. we know what has happened before. >> i think the media has done a better job of talking about the stakes of the next election and not the race itself, and they couldn't be higher. chuck, as part of the conversation, earlier, i cited the conventional wisdom that one of the trials that could conclude before voters go to the polls is the january 6th trial, as it has been shorthanded. there's been interesting moves there in recent days. the trump team is suggesting he should have immunity from prosecution there. jack smith is looking to fast track this, move it to the supreme court maybe. give us your analysis as to where things stand with the legal machinations. >> like you, i always thought that that particular trial currently scheduled for march 4th of next year would be the one most likely to go and conclude before the next

election. i don't think that that date is doomed. i do think that date is endangered. it's for the reasons you say. mr. trump, as is his right, has appealed to the next highest court, the d.c. circuit court of appeals, arguing that he is immune as president from acts he takes while in office. i don't think he is right. i think he loses that. to your question, though, how long does it take for him to lose that? is that a question the supreme court will hear immediately and usually so before the appellate court, or will the supreme court let it go to the appellate court, which is typical, and then hear the case? if it is the second thing, jonathan, that could take months if not longer. if the supreme court is willing to hear that question now, and, again, i think it is resolved in favor of jack smith and the government, i don't think a president has immunity for criminal conduct while president. that is an absurd result. but the question remains, how long does it take us to get to

the right answer? and will we have an answer before the next election, and can we try that case, and perhaps others, before voters go to the polls? again, i don't think the march trial date is doomed, but it is certainly endangered. >> wow. chuck rosenberg, thank you very much for joining us on this monday morning. jon meacham, thank you, as well. good to see you both. coming up, anger with the israeli government is growing after the country's military admits to mistakenly killing hostages. it comes as there is new reporting on the money that funded the hamas terror attacks. israel apparently discovered the network years ago. >> netanyahu's government did nothing to stop it. >> no real effort. we'll go through that ahead on "morning joe." you can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken

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it's not that he thinks the guys have gotten better, there are just better opportunities led by purdy. curls out of trouble, downfield, wide open! mccaffery gets up to run with it for the touchdown. >> carr looking, now throws, end zone, touchdown, johnson. >> in motion, stafford off the play fake, looking long for cooper kupp. he's wide open. he's got it in stride. he's going to go in. >> mike evans with rachaad white. godwin has been fantastic. >> pass caught by moore. first down and more. moore exploing to the end zone! >> second and four, same look that began the drive. it is a screen to edwards-helaire. into the patriots territory, stays on his feet, stays in bounds, and takes it to the 15. >> began at their own 40. going deep, going deep, right

there! what a perfect pass and play for the touchdown to jaylen waddle. >> cook again. james cook through everyone, and he scores again. >> fields chased by garrett, flushed, looking, sets up, throwing deep. hail mary. end zone. deflected. >> oh! >> tipped and intercepted. >> oh, come on. come on, man. >> amazing. >> that is a guy who will never get a drink poured for him in chicago again. a look at some of the highlights from yesterday's nfl games, including 49ers clinching the nfc west with a win over the cardinals, a bounceback victory for the chiefs after last week's meltdown. and you saw it, the nail-biting final play in the browns/bears game. browns escaping with a victory after chicago nearly converted the game-winning hail mary

touchdown on the last second attempt. let's bring in the host of "pablo torre finds ou," espn's pablo torre. >> pablo. >> we saw a lot of great highlights. yay, go nfl. i can't wait to talk about how great the 49ers are. >> sure. >> i mean, how the bills just came out of nowhere and crushed -- >> yup. >> -- a rising dallas team. but, first, let's follow up on your thesis for the year. >> okay. >> i certainly agree with you. this is such a mediocre league. three, four years ago. >> thank you. >> you could watch game after game after game, sit there going, "well, that's why they play in the nfl. they're the best." now, i'm sitting there going, "oh, my god, you run your route that way? you can't even turn around and, like, block backs?" there is just genuinely horrific play. we're used to seeing that in college, right? we're used to seeing college

going, "well, they're college players." in the pros, you're right, brady is right, there's so much mediocrity in the nfl this year. >> it's okay to say it, you know. the nfl is the lone remaining monoculture. well, the nfl and taylor swift, which is not coincidental in a story we may or may not talk about. but the reality is, it's okay to point out we all watch this thing even if it's not that good. that's the reality of it. in fact, maybe the reason we're looking toward the sky box, toward taylor swift is because what's on the field is not quite as interesting lately. this is coming from a person who has been addicted to various forms of football, fantasy and otherwise, for two decades. >> right. >> this season is not that season. >> what is your operating theory here in. >> i think there's a lot of quarterbacks getting injured, joe. that's a part of it. we can talk about jake browning and joe flacco. these are guys piloting playoff teams right now in the bengals and the browns somehow, and then

it doesn't end there. john lemire is to my left, a patriots fan. also, there is the idea that the institutions we relied on, i think this might be something you talk about on your show, the institutions that this country has come to rely on are not quite so resilient anymore. bill belichick seems to be one of those, as well. it's from the top and the bottom of the league that's crumbling at this point. >> pablo, let's talk about the good now. we've talked about the ugly, the mediocre. let's talk about the good. it's so funny, we've gone in these phases. you know, the 49ers were the dominant team, then, you know, they crushed the cowboys. then they had their come ups in two or three games. >> yup. >> then you had the eagles who got beaten badly by the cowboys, so then it was the cowboys. all right. this is dak's year. man, last night, not a car accident, a train wreck of a game for dak and the cowboys. talk about it. >> yeah, being a dallas cowboys

fan is particularly a strange form of kink, i would say. i realize how early in the morning it is for me to say that word, but go with me. >> yes, it is. okay. >> joe, they know what it is like to feel pleasure. they were so good when i was growing up, the cowboys. everybody expects them to be just around the corner, perpetually, this is america's team. this is a shame in what always happening ritualistically now around this time of year, december, january, certainly february. >> you've thought through this. >> and they were punched in the face repeatedly. reverend al is to my right. reverend al has seen mike tyson do this to people, what the bills did to the dallas cowboys, just run the ball in their face over and over again. josh allen threw fewer than 100 yards, but the running back ran for almost 200. it did not stop. it was predictable and overwhelming. by the end, the buffalo bills looked to be a class ahead of the cowboys. in a league of immediate i don't care mediocrity, that's what we

should expect. >> also, as to why the play diminished, we had so many years where offense was king and the defense made adjustments. the league ran out of rules to change to help the offense, which could be helping, too. the tommy devito era crashed back to earth for the giants. the jets' faint playoff hopes and aaron rodgers' faint comeback seems to be gone. two teams are playing well. ravens win sunday night football, beat the jaguars, top seed in the afc. and the 49ers do look like the one good team. now, they're top heavy, there are injury concerns there. that could be a problem. right now, they look like they're super bowl bound. >> this is a team atop right now. the controversy is whether brock purdy is the mvp of the league. if you did not know, mr. irrelevant, was the last pick in the draft a year or so ago. he comes in throws four

touchdowns in this game, leads the league in every conceivable statistical passing category. the problem is brock purdy thinks the mvp of the nfl is christian mccaffery, his teammate, who is very fast and strong. utilized in the offensive scheme which is brilliant. that's the controversy. is brock purdy better than his own teammate and, therefore, the best player in the nfl? it is a rare thing to be spoiled by that many riches. >> yeah, the answer to that is, i love brock, i really do, but christian mccaffery, next level. >> yes. >> just next level. >> agree. >> deebo also, i mean, it's so fun watching him. >> never ends. >> it's amazing. let's talk about, for some bizarre reason, i've always loved following the browns, who are having a good year this year. you talk about joe flacco. they are they, 9-5 now?

>> there is no more shocking fact about the nfl. take nothing away from this conversation. the browns being 9-5 does feel hallucinatory. >> yes. >> the idea here, joe, is the other joe, flacco, is back in the nfl. he wasn't playing at all last season. this is, of course, a former super bowl winner with the ravens, a bazillion years ago. here he is, here is joe flacco rolling out as if he is a young man again. look, part of the function of mediocrity is that you'll get a bunch of teams in the playoffs that aren't actually that good. i suspect the 9-5 browns are not going to be long for the postseason, but in the meantime, you have a game like this with an ending, by the way, an ending that i don't think we can give credit to the browns in any real way for this, but there's a hail mary at the end. justin fields winds up. you'll see it in a little bit, i presume. it's just the thing that happens is -- there it is. it is a metaphor for any election result you'd like to claim, right? it is in your hands.

you're on the ground. you almost possessed it, and there it goes in the hands of a waiting defensive back. yeah, that's the browns. >> pablo, you know what i love about sports commentators like you? you're like political commentators like me. >> not subtle enough? >> so sunday morning -- >> where is this going? >> well, you know, the thing is, oh, you hear, joe biden is going to lose. it's going to be the worst thing ever. there's going to be a red wave. he's the biggest idiot of all time. how could he be so stupid? you know, then the day after the election, no red wave. they're like, you know, joe biden is pretty smart. so i'm driving at 5:15 sunday morning to go get starbucks for mika, who pushes me out of bed at 5:00 and says, "i need my starbucks." >> tmi. >> what do i do? i turn on the radio.

i was listening to espn, maybe nfl network, so i turn it on and what do i hear? but, you know, we have to just come to terms with the fact that jared goff is playing the best football of his life. it's an extraordinary run for this young man. i've been hearing for three weeks, four weeks, jared goff, it's over. the lions need to trade him. they need to bring in a young quarterback. he's toast. but, man, saturday night, that guy lit it up. >> yeah. >> the lions, 10-4, how exciting. >> yeah, joe, you've been on this story in a way that makes you look, unfortunately, more prescient than a lot of the gas bags like myself who really didn't pay much attention to the jared goff experience in detroit when it started. you're right, he was a cast off, a former number one overall pick. of course, with the rams. wasn't good enough to be their super bowl winning quarterback. they got rid of him, sent him to detroit for matthew stafford.

here are the lions atop the nfc. at least ten wins for the first time since 2014 is what i'm reading off the bottom of the screen, for the first time, which is shocking to me. shocking to me. this is real. it's a real thing, what that back flip, forward flip, excuse me, is indicating about this. >> you know what's exciting about this team? again, last year, they started out 1-5. we were talking about how they were the best 1-5 team i ever saw. it's a great message to any team that's doing poorly. you know, just keep at it. >> yeah. >> can i ask you one other question about this? >> please. >> what is sean payton's deal with his quarterback? i'm dead serious. he's been a jerk to a guy who i think could be a future hall of famer. he's been a jerk to wilson since he first got there, a good guy. he's yelling at him after sean

payton didn't challenge two, count them, two touchdowns. >> you noticed that one. >> broncos had two touchdowns. he should have challenged them. they would have been called. what does he do after blowing it? he yells at his quarterback, russell wilson. >> yeah, i'm not sure if there is a platform on national television with more empathy for russell wilson than your desk, joe. you've been looking out for russell wilson. he has been underrated, to your point, another one of your favorites who has been overperforming the criticism. sean payton, post bounty gate, took a year off. there was a kevin james move movie about this, i believe, which must have been frustrating. but he has pent-up frustrations. he comes in having taken over russell wilson, where the broncos were an embarrassment, and sean payton is trying to prove, the difference maker is me. the guy who couldn't coach for a

year, i'm the genius. you are seeing the frustration of aspirational brilliance in a guy who wants to be on the field but, of course, has the headset instead. >> lemire, did you see the game? did you see how sean payton actually let two touchdowns go by -- >> it was good. >> -- without stopping the game? he cost his team seven points on two plays, and then he decides after it's over to go yell at russell wilson. here's my deal with russell wilson. first of all, a great guy. but you don't go from possibly being a future hall of famer to having one bad season in denver and suddenly being garbage. he is a really, really good player, and he has been. i just -- but, lemire, did you see that? >> yeah, i did. it's been a weird year for sean p peyton. his team gave up 70 points to the dolphins. that's on the head coach, not the quarterback. then they ripped off five straight wins at one point, back in the playoff picture.

then they were throttled saturday night. coach of the year, sean payton buzz, has vanished along with it. it seems like he inherited russell wilson and didn't want him there. russell wilson always a favorite of mine for the goal line interception he threw in the super bowl against the patriots. but he has had a good year. lousy last year, yeah, but doesn't seem like he is done. we're stuck with this strange dynamic now. >> want to talk about the patriots? >> we can briefly address this. >> address what happened there? >> it is a -- >> we are out of time. >> it is another humbling defeat. right now, we have the second pick in the draft. >> there it is. >> question is whether or not bill belichick will be the one to make that selection. >> yeah. this was funny. >> oh. >> this game was funny to me. i was thinking of john pretty much the whole time. >> thank you. >> just the misery. >> by the way, taylor swift, we mentioned her the top of this whole thing. we've talked a lot about how the taylor swift effect is changing the nfl. if you were to look at the video of taylor swift watching now her

kansas city chiefs, it's very clear the nfl has radicalized taylor swift. she was cursing. she was yelling. she was furious. as furious as patrick mahomes striking his helmet on the ground after he threw two pibs picks in this game. it was a home game for taylor swift, john, is what this felt like. i tried to stay away from it, but that was the story line of this game. you guys brought out jon bon jovi. no offense. >> overshadowed. >> the ap recap, i'll point it out for the record. there was a, quote, tepid reaction in comparison to taylor swift for mr. bon jovi, which feels unjust. i'm just reporting the facts. >> it's taylor swift. come on, what do you expect? >> espn's pablo torre. >> by the way -- >> no, we have to wrap it. >> mika, so sorry. >> pablo has admitted, i was responsible for bringing saban to alabama, and ahead of the curve on the lions.

>> fortunately true so far, yeah. >> espn's pablo torre, thank you so much. good to see you again. >> thank you, mika. still ahead, we'll get a new behind the scenes look at the mood inside biden headquarters as his campaign works to re-elect the president, despite terrible polls and panicked supporters. plus, florida governor ron desantis will join the conversation as he steps up his attacks against donald trump. "morning joe" will be right back. so now, do you have a driver's license? oh. what did you get us? [ chuckling ] with the click of a pen, you can a new volkswagen at the sign, then drive event. sign today and you're off in a new volkswagen during the sign, then drive event.

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we have a lot of work to do. you know, when they let, i think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country, when they do that, we got a lot of work to do. they're poisoning the blood of our country. >> the biden campaign has accused former president trump of, quote, parroting adolph hitler. what is your reaction? are the president's comments

representative of how you and other republicans feel? >> 76% of the american people, not donald trump, believe the border is broken. >> what about his language, senator, just that, poisoning the blood. >> i'm woried about an outcome. >> you've endorsed former president trump. are you comfortable with him using language like that? >> we're talking about language. i care less what language people use, as long as we get it right. >> well, you know what, lindsey, the language that he uses turns out to be what he does, so we're not getting it right. i mean, what's wrong with him, "i could care less"? that's republican senator lindsey graham. >> it's pretty shocking. elise jordan, i mean, you have a guy -- >> he's so scared. >> -- literally channelling hitler, talking about poisoning

the blood of america. again, i always go back to that iowa congressma the republicans kicked out for saying far less than this. this is -- we talk about hitler, okay. you can say david duke. it's what the klan always talked about. it's mainstream in the republican party. lindsey graham says he doesn't care, doesn't care that donald trump is talking about -- you know, he is using basically racist, fascist language. >> lindsey graham would rather win a primary in south carolina than actually stand for anything. what's so amazing is, you know, you watch him float from one figure in power, like john mccain, then donald trump, and you almost wonder if he could have gone to joe biden just as easily for a little bit, so is

his desire for power. but this is just everyone wants to win their primary, and they're too scared. too scared. >> you know, it's very hard to deal with the fact that donald trump is still saying these things, that it almost feels like much of the country is becoming desensitized to it. >> totally. >> it can't be normalized. it'll be a choice for americans at the voting booth. >> americans may be desensitized to it. he is saying, though, what he is going to do when he talks about going after generals that are insufficiently loyal. >> right. >> shutting down media outlets that are insufficiently loyal. jailing political opponents, prosecutors, attorneys who said negative things about him. you know, he knows exactly what

he's saying, and he is going to do it. lindsey graham is totally fine with that. >> he is spilling it out and doubling down. here's more of what donald trump said at that rally in new hampshire. >> we're like a rocket ship, like a rocket ship sent by kim jong-un. just like that. who is very nice, i will tell you. he's not so fond of this administration, but he is fond of me. we had a very good relationship. vladimir putin of russia says that biden's -- and this is a quote -- politically motivated persecution of his political rival is very good for russia because it shows the rottenness of the american political system. viktor orban, the highly represented prime minister of hungary, said, trump is the man who can save the western world. can you imagine president xi of china, powerful guy -- they hate when i say that, you're saying nice things. no, he controls 1.6 billion

people rather ruthlessly, right? can you imagine, he asks. i'd say, can you imagine a republican crowd? can you imagine republican primary voters, actually the party of reagan at one time, supporting a guy who is so in love, and he said it, with communist dictators across the globe, whether it's a communist dictator in north korea, in china, a former kgb guy in russia, whether it's viktor orban in hungary, a guy who brags about destroying western democracy. >> steals documents. >> i mean, of course, a guy that steals nuclear secrets, all in for them. again, the fact that the republican party, the rank and file support him, and also members in the senate, members

in the house don't speak out against it eight years later, still shocking. let's go to west palm beach. vaughn hillyard is there. he was at the rally in new hampshire on saturday. vaughn, i have to ask, you know, trump says things. he wants to provoke. he wants to get the reaction that he is getting. i'm curious, though, it seems to me when he is channelling adolph hitler, we really are getting to a new level that he's doing it so openly. he is praising putin so openly. he is calling america rotten openly. he is praising all of these tyrants and dictators. he is praising convicts that beat the hell out of cops. is it becoming even more radical based on you being inside the rally there? >> joe, i think to answer your question, number one, yes.

it's not like folks are looing around at one another when he begins quoting vladimir putin. inside the arena at new hampshire on saturday, there were more than 4,000 folks that were cheering as he celebrated the words of viktor orban and praised the likes of kim jong-un and xi jinping. last hour, you said, joe, we cannot ignore this. why? it's more than just ignoring donald trump, but it's the movement, and, if i way, the people. the movement and the people echo the words constantly of donald trump. i talked to or attempted to talk to throngs of supporters in the rally in new hampshire there. when i say attempt to talk, it is difficult. because it is not about even beginning to rationalize basic truths with his supporters at this point. it's not about tamping down one conspiracy or two conspiracies. at this point, the conspiracies are too entangled to the point that they cannot be unravelled. while that is one subsection of

america, there's the other subsection of america. many of them at that rally in new hampshire, and those are folks that may not know the conspiracy theories, but they trust family and friends who do. at the core, they trust donald trump. they echo the words that the man says on stage. last night, he had another rally in reno. i was on my way to come down here to florida and only tuned in remotely, but i tuned into this right-wing propaganda channel, right-wing broadcasting network. many trump supporters tune in, and that's how they watch trump rallies. the host was talking about the, quote, information war, and touting the likes of alex jones and tucker carlson, folks who parrot also the likes of vladimir putin and viktor orban. donald trump is not moderating as he heads toward the general election. he is moving farther to the right, praising murderous dictators and leaders of illiberal democracies. before the rally in new hampshire, i was talking with one of his senio advisors for

his campaign. i asked why they were allowing donald trump to run, really, this unrestrained campaign over the last year. that senior adviser responded to me, quote, what choice do i have? >> vaughn, sharpton here. one of the things i wanted to ask you as you observed the audiences at the trump rallies, these are not people that don't understand what he's saying. they seem to share what he's saying. they go along where these statements where he quotes fascists and says outright racist things. it's not like there's a debate in the audience or that there's something that they don't understand, who putin is, or they don't understand when you say non-excite -- non-white countries are sending people here to poison the blood of measuring. there are people here who believe that's right, but there

is a question why others are not condemning this openly, like a lindsey graham. >> reporter: absolutely. there is a dehumanization of immigrants, migrant population, that are coming to the country. as chris christie said yesterday, suggesting in an interview that it was a dog whistle to those who are feeling economic pain and feeling the price of gas prices and grocery prices. these are things that those voters, they do, in fact, tell me, but the same voters following those statements tell me that, you know, there was antifa that was the ones attacking the u.s. capitol. despite me telling them i was there on the west front of the lawn as that attack was taking place. when you look at the success of donald trump and expunging this republican party of those who cast doubt on his words from bob corker to tom rice to liz cheney to adam kissinger, those who have had success stay in line

with him. that's where kim reynolds in iowa, i think, will be a test. chris sununu in new hampshire. so what extent do folks in iowa and new hampshire listen to these long, respected, conservative leaders in their states? or do they continue to follow donald trump? i can tell you, rev, looking at new hampshire over the last 72 hours, thousands and thousands of folks standing over the course of more than an hour for donald trump, applauding his every word, compare that to ron desantis. i was at his event in concord, the capital of new hampshire. there were 30, 35 people inside of the room. his evening event, 40, 50 people. compare it to donald trump. there is a disparity between the rest of the republican party right now and that which donald trump is overseeing. >> nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. we appreciate it. let's bring in national correspondent for "new york"

magazine. gabe is out with a new feature, a cover feature for "new york" magazine this morning about his recent time inside the biden campai re-election headarrs. the piece is entitled, "the arng calm of the biden campaign." gabetes in part this, with less than a year before the 2024 vote, there is a glaring cognitive split at the top of the democratic party. while strategists are desperate to see a course correction. the every indication that the election is considered very much under control. for those outside this bubble of confidence, biden's positio looks as feeble as ever. his job approval rating is hovering below 40%, lower than any president in recent memory at this point in his first term.

many young voters appear to be revoting against him, reading his administration's support for israel as a lack of concern for the mounting civilian death toll in gaza. there are a slew of encouraging reports about the economy, but voters don't seem to be giving biden a credit. instead, they're just pissed off that everything costs a lot mor than it used to. his top advisors believe that the political media cplex is repeating all itsmistakes of 2019 in underestimating biden and misunderstanding just how low trump has sunk in ters' estimation. they're convinced biden will rebound in popularity as the election gets closer -- >> all right. >> -- and its stakes become apparent to the average voter. >> tell me, you look at polls over the weekend. joe biden's numbers are collapsing with young voters.

he is doing poorly among black men. he is doing poorly among other people of color. if you look historically at the numbers, his votes support is slipping in the swing states. all the while, he is keeping all the people that ran his campaign in 2020 inside the white house. what does the biden team know that nobody else knows? >> well, you've asked a good question there. i think the central article of faith that i heard over and over for the last six months really, as i've been asking this question, what is the plan here, is voters aren't really paying attention in the way they're going to a year from now when it comes time to vote, or 11 months from now. the point i heard over and over again is once real americans, real people who are not thinking about politics at all, once they lock into the fact that this is going to be another election where donald trump is on the ballot, everything is going to change. that's going to change for young voters. it is going to change for voters of color. it'll change for really the biden coalition. i heard this over and over while

biden's numbers were tanking, to make a long story short and not to sugar coat it. the argument is if you look at polls, focus groups, real people who, you know, you are the people who vote in elections, it's not just that they're not paying attention yet, they don't understand that trump is going to come back in a year on the ballot and the major threat is there. that's why the biden campaign is keying in on trump more, talking about what a second term would look like. they also made the point, listen, while the republican party is going through its mess all over the country, but especially in palm beach where vaughn was giving the great report around trump, the biden campaign has been building up in wilmington. they have this big infrastructure in delaware, being built sort of so they can really hit the ground running in the new year. it's all based on the idea that people are going to start paying attention in a new way. we'll find out soon. >> biden campaign focused on fundraising at the moment.

gabe, in your piece, you talk to e senior biden aide who says if they do have regret, if things go poorly, the regret is they didn't go negative on trump sooner. this past summer, they were pushing bidenomics, a campaign to accentuate the president's positives rather than drawing the contract. we have seen that shift, but people democrats are talking to, do you think the shift came soon enough and hard enough? >> great question. some don't think it came soon enough at all and are already saying, well, again, like i said in the story, if it turns out biden loses, it's because they didn't go after trump soon enough. pollsters within the party found that, early on, biden's numbers do look better when you present it as a contrast, when you present this not just as do you approve of biden but do you approve of biden in relation to trump? in polls with the base voters,

you found very frequently, you know, biden's numbers go up there. we'll see if that turns out to be true. >> biden himself, elise, is fond of saying, don't compare me to the almighty but the alternative, which is donald trump. >> now they seem to be doing that a bit more, but by taking the focus away from biden's record, which bidenomics really went over like a lead balloon, but what was the debate, can you talk about the debate in the campaign over making it a campaign against trump versus what we did the last three years? >> they believed there was going to be a republican primary going on, and this is a lot of people around biden, that was going to be hitting trump more than it really is. they figured, let's up the president's approval ratings and talk about his record. within the biden campaign, they hate the idea, and the whole operation, that you have to choose one or the other here. biden himself always says, look at the results of the midterms. when, you know, people said to him, it's a distraction to talk about democracy.

it's a distraction to talk about trump. we should just be talking about the economy. and then he went out there and talked about democracy just before the elections, and democrats overperformed. their view is, we're going to push bidenomics, he'll be doing this stuff, but if you look at the ads, the communications to reporters, it's trump, trump, trump. there's really two different paths they're going down here. they believe there has to be. >> gabe, is there a sense among the biden campaign that they're just not going to pay attention to their base support? i understand they feel the voters are going to show up, that they're not paying attention. >> sure. >> but base voters are paying attention now and influencers of young people, of blacks, of latinos, of women. >> yeah. >> if they turn them off, those are the people that can really weigh in against them later because they're saying these people are not sincere. don't they risk that because they're going to need that core when they feel that people are starting to pay attention?

>> this is where i think things get really interesting. you've brought up a dynamic that they're very aware of, but it is not totally obvious, how to deal with it. the way they're thinking about this, there's a lot going on behind the scenes we're not seeing. i tried to report about this a little in the piece. they have an operation to work with a lot of the influencers and people who are big communicators in different communities that can reach people better than they can from wilmington. beyond that, they have starting these organizing pilots in arizona and wisconsin, hiring up there. those are focused on phoenix, madison, and milwaukee, specifically on latino voters, young voters, and black voters in milwaukee. the idea there is to really make sure they understand how to shore up the base first before they pivot over to the suburban white voters, for example, they ended up going for last time. the idea is, yeah, we're learning about this now. in the new year, that's going to expand, i believe, to the other five big swing states that they seem to be focusing on right now. >> national correspondent for

"new york" magazine, gabe, thank you very much for your reporting and insight this morning. >> thanks. still ahead on "morning joe," we're learning more about what was happening behind the scenes with the supreme court justices leading up to the decision to overturn roe. investigaive reporter for "the new york times," jodi kantor, joins us with that story. and later this morning, republican presidential candidate ron desantis will be our guest following his weekend in iowa, stepping up criticisms on donald trump. "morning joe" will be right back.

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miserable in new york city. in her latest piece for "the new york times," columnist maureen dowd writes about abortion rights and what he calls supreme contempt for women. she starts with the tragic death of an indian immigrant in ireld. the woman died in 2012 after being denied an abortion despite having aet with a fatal condition. the woman's story was vividly evoked prior to a 2018 referendum that overturned the vatican-approved eighth amendment of the irish constitution, which had made abortions illegal. she writes, quote, i remember as i reported on the vote having a flash of gratitude that i lived in america and not ireland. i thought to myself that i would hate living in such a benighted country shapd by religious fa

fanatics, but now i am. american women are punished, branded with scarlet letters, forced to flee to get health procedures. we have our own fraught case of a 31-year-old begging for a termination, kate cox, a married texas mother of two who was thrilled to be pregnant until she was told her fetus has an abnormality. continuing the procedure could also keep cox from getting pregnant again. it is outrageous that such an important right in america was stripped away by a handful of cloistered, rod zeot driven by no accountability. a "new york times" article revealed that jti samuel alito was even more underhanded than we knew as he plotted to engineer a titanic shift in the

law by vitiating roe. she wres, quote, conservative judges who assed the senate that roe was settled lawn their confirmation hearing could barely wait until -- >> all right. >> -- justice ruth bader ginsburg died to throw it in the constitutional rights rubbish bin. >> let's bring in jodi kantor, investigative reporter for "the new york times." you wrote this extraordinary piece along with adam. thank you so much for being with us. there were so many things that we learned for the first time yesterday in reading y'all's remarkable piece. one actually was that amy coney barrett was hesitant at first to take up dobbs. why? >> well, the reasons she gave initially, there was a timing debate early in the justices' discussions of whether to take the case. on the one hand, they had the votes to green light it. on the other hand, there were some conflict among the justices about when to do it.

justices alito, thomas, and gorsuch wanted to move in immediately and hear the case actually a year earlier than it was eventually heard. however, justice barrett spoke very strongly. remember, she was brand-new on the court at this time. she says to them, i have a timing issue. i have just gotten here. i've barely been here for three months. there is a change in composition on the court, and essentially, i'm not ready to hear it this term. if you do it this term, i'm going to change my vote from a grant, a yes, to a deny. so justice kavanaugh comes in with this plan to delay the announcement of them taking the case. they have the votes but don't tell the public they do. then a few months later, justice barrett indeed changed her vote to a no. one historic fact we now know about this decision is it was green lighted by four justices,

the minimum of the court, all male. >> what's remarkable is, jodi, you bring up her 2013 quote where she wrote a law review article that says the law changes because the composition of the court changes and the court loses credibility. did you get anymore insight? you talked about it a good bit, but did you get any more insight into the leak, where it may have come from? of course, people on the right always said, oh, it makes sense the people on the left were trying to do it. it made sense. i said it at the time here, somebody put it out because they wanted to lock down the votes. of course, even before that, "the wall street journal" editorial page leaked they had inside information, a right-wing news outlet, that they had information. any more insight into who may have leaked the dobbs decision?

>> i think what adam liptak, my partner, and i were able to say, is it was more the effect of the leak. there were competing theories about who did it, but the new information we were able to bring onto the table is that the efforts at compromise were a little -- were more involved and more strenuous than we knew. it was not only chief justice john roberts but also justice stephen breyer leaving the court. this is his final act. he is a liberal but a very strong believer in consensus and compromise and working things out. he even considered, just considered, we heard, joining chief justice roberts' 15-week position, essentially trying to craft this compromise that would have saved some abortion rights by limiting them. what we don't know is how real that possibility was. it is very hard to say, it was

always, i think, a hypothetical stage, but the leak happened right in the final weeks of those deliberations. so there is a finality to the leak, a feeling of cementing the votes. this is the way it's going to be. remember that the justices' votes stay secret during the process because justices do sometimes change their minds and need that maneuvering room. the leak really cut off those possibilities. >> then the justice neil gorsuch, your reporting shows, took ten minutes to make -- to sign it, ten minutes? >> well, apparently, there is reason to believe that this opinion was pre-circulated on the conservative side. meaning, when justice alito sent it around at 11:16 a.m. on february 10th, 2022, that he was showing the full court for the

first time. justice gorsuch wrote back within ten minutes, and people really noticed. it was a 98-page historic draft opinion. >> remarkable to get through 98 pages in ten minutes. jodi, talk a little more about the aftermath of this decision, what it's meant for the court, whether it is security measures to prevent future leaks, but also how the justices believe the perception of the court has changed in the aftermath of what happened two summers ago. >> two things. the leak investigation was very difficult for the court. as you know, it was notsuccessf not a concrete finding, but there was also mistrust within the organization. what we have found is that the justices were barely questioned. they were sort of in conversations with the marshal, but lower-level people, clerks

and staff at the court, were interrogated. they were asked to sign affidavits. we even published an internal form that the clerks were initially given that asked for a very intrusive amount of information. email addresses, passwords. we're not talking about work emails. we're talking about private emails. any references to words like "abortion" was going to be searched for. i think clerks pushed back and got legal counsel and we're not sure if anyone signed that form. the point is, this institution that's supposed to stand for fairness had a feeling of unfairness in that investigation. what i can tell you, the information that adam and i unearthed, and also publicly in the opinions, you can see this debate among the justices about how to talk about decisions that they don't agree with. and what adds to legitimacy and what detracts from it.

one of the things we found is that the tradition of oral dissents, in-person announcements, and also justices being able to read a summary of a dissent if they strongly disagree with a degree -- and, remember, that's a famous ruth bader ginsburg tradition -- it almost ended. the justices had some real disagreement about bringing that back after dobbs. >> jodi, justice roberts has a reputation as running a pretty tight ship. as you write, doing well with consensus among the court in previous decisions. how has his leadership role evolved? what did you learn through your reporting after this leak? >> you know, the biggest thing i learned, which i think we all have to keep in mind, is that the chief justice, despite the grandness of his title, just doesn't really control the other justices. he's not their boss. they're all independently nominated and confirmed.

so he tries to guide through the court. he has some administrative power. at the end of the day, these are nine individuals not really accountable to anyone in the traditional sense. >> all right. we'll leave it right there. investigative reporter for "the new york times", jodi kantor, thank you very much for your reporting. thanks for coming on this morning. >> thank you. coming up on "morning joe," after scoring a coveted endorsement, republican presidential candidate nikki haley is now gaining some ground on donald trump in a key early voting state. but she still seems unwilling to take on the former president more harshly. also ahead, transportation secretary pete buttigieg will join the conversation on the new penalty his department just levied against southwest airlines over last year's major flight disruptions. "morning joe" will be right back.

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i agree with a lot of trump's policies. i think he was the right president at the right time. but looking at the situation now, our country is in disarray. the world is on fire. chaos follows him. we can't have a country in chaos for four more years or we won't survive that. >> i hear you say that a lot, chaos follows him, but does it follow him or does he create the chaos? that sounds passive. >> rightly or wrongly, call it whatever you want to call it. when you feel it, it's chaos. when i tell these rooms that, they all nod their head. they get it. it's the chaos. americans are tired. they want government to work for them again, and they want to win. >> all right. she also said that the media is exhausting. you guys are exhausting. that was abc news chief washington correspondent jonathan karl pressing presidential candidate nikki haley on her messaging. as you heard there, haley

believes chaos follows the former president, quote, rightly or wrongly, but won't go further. jonathan karl joins us now. he is the author of the new book "tired of winning: donald trump and the end of thegrand old party." what i find exhausting, jonathan, is seeing republican senators like lindsey graham or republican presidential candidates like nikki haley failing to point out the threat of trump to the very people they either serve or want to serve. >> i mean, i had several different questions with her about this very point, and i asked her at one point about a statement she made shortly after january 6th where she was absolutely without any hesitation criticizing trump, condemning him for what had happened, and going so far as to say that we made a mistake in following him.

we must never let that happen again. and i asked, do you still believe that, and she said yes. but in the course of the answer, she also repeated what she has so often said, and you heard there, where she says, "he was the right president for the right time." wait a minute, he was president on january 6th. you know, she's really trying to walk this line. she's trying -- on one hand, she's got to obviously beat trump if she's going to get the nomination. he is far and away the frontrunner. she's clearly reluctant to say anything that would anger trump's base supporters, which she wants to ultimately be her base supporters. >> and the right president at the right time, i mean, for who? i guess for people who got tax cuts, but not for people who died of covid. tens of thousands of people who died of covid -- >> well -- >> -- and perhaps could have

been told a lot sooner about the danger. we could go on for four hours, jonathan, about his presidency. i don't know. how does nikki haley look the voters in the eye and say she is being honest when she says something like that? >> well, look, i think you can debate over and over again all the things you just mentioned about the trump presidency. >> yes. >> the reason why i wrote "tired of winning" is because i actually believe the evidence is there that whatever you thought of trump 1.0, 2.0 will be far more extreme. the policies that he is talking about implementing, that the people around him, that the whole basis of his campaign is actually on a different level than what we saw in 2016 and 2020. when i asked nikki haley about that, i asked about his central campaign theme, this idea of retribution. trump says, "i am your retribution." he talks about using the power of the government to destroy his enemies.

when i asked her about that is when she said, "you guys are exhausting. you media, you're exhausting. you only want to talk about trump." >> right. >> but this is an important point because, yes, we've gone over -- you know, we talked endlessly about what happened during the trump presidency, for good reason, but there's actually, i think, been not enough attention paid to what a second trump presidency would be and how, in many ways, it goes far beyond what we saw the first time around. >> yeah. >> jonathan, as you talk to ms. haley, governor haley and others running, do you think that, watching your interview, that she's trying to cautiously deal with trump and not really attack some of the real venom that he's expressed and that he is using to rally his base to vote for him, such as when he praises dictators and rulers, or

makes outright racist statements, she kind of never attacks that? it's that, you know, it always follows him, some kind of confusion and whatever term she uses follows him, but the core of his message is very fascist and bigoted. i don't hear her or his opponents attacking that. >> i mean, with the exception of chris christie, who has done that. >> right. >> but yes. in the course of the interview, to be fair, she was quite harshly critical of him for praising dictators. on the larger question of his use of blatant and racist imagery, the idea of, you know, poisoning the bloodstream, the idea of rooting out the vermin, describing his political opponents as vermin, you know, none of them want to go there. none of them want to touch it. again, i think what it is, there are two things, and you're hinting at one, which is, his

retribution, his personal retribution, the way he'll go out to destroy people who take him on, and, also, she looks out and she sees the hold that trump has on the base of the republican party and says, "i need to get those people if i'm going to win. i need to get those people. i can't get those people if i am seen as going too far against donald trump." but, i mean, clearly, the idea of holding back has not worked. >> jonathan, we heard from governor desantis in recent days suggest if trump were to lose in iowa or new hampshire or anywhere else, he wouldn't accept that. we can all say, yeah, we know. that's how this has been set up all along. he hinted at it in 2016 and did it in 2020. for those you talk to, both in trump's orbit and outside of it among other republicans, are they taking any steps to prepare for that eventuality, or,

conversely, what is it going to look like next november when we get a trump/biden rematch, trump loses again? what recourse do we have to prevent him? i mean, he's not president anymore but he'll stir up his followers, and who knows what will happen. >> the point you made there, that he is not president anymore, is incredibly important, obviously. as president, he was able to use the power of that office to attempt to overturn the election. fortunately, he failed because many of the people who worked for him refused to do what he directly ordered. i mean, he wanted to use the power of the justice department to pressure the states to overturn their election results. he wanted the department of homeland security, also doj, but the department of homeland security, as i reported, he wanted chad wolf, the acting secretary, to use the department of homeland security to seize voting machines after the doj refused to go along with his

orders. he was infuriated when the leaders of the army, the chief of staff of the army and the secretary of the army put out a statement in december of 2020 saying that the military has no role in determining the outcome of a presidential election. in other words, the u.s. military won't take part in a coup. it infuriated him, and the two leaders were threatened with losing their jobs if they repeated it. so he doesn't have any of that anymore. if he did get elected again, i think that the assumption you have to make is that the people that stopped him the first time around would not be in a second trump administration. they wouldn't be there to resist what he was demanding. they would be there to follow orders. that's the significant difference. look, jonathan, if he refuses to accept the results this time around, the fear would be, will there be violence in the country? that's a real fear, but he won't

have the power of the presidency. >> jonathan karl, thank you. it's always great to have you on the show. jonathan's new book is entitled "tired of winning: donald trump and the end of the grand old party." thanks very much for coming on this morning. coming up, the french finance minister is in new york city this morning trying to convince wall street firms to invest in paris. he joins us with his pitch straight ahead on "morning joe." visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first purchase. bombas. give the good. the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico,

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this as some believe the current laws create obstacles for the financial sector. joining us now, french finance

minister bruno le maire. he is in new york this week meeting with wall street firms. it is great to have you drop by the site of "morning joe." i'm curious, sir, what is different now that would be enough to entice, i don't know, morgan stanley, goldman and others to place their bets on paris? >> yes, the idea is to have as many financial jobs coming from the u.s. as possible in paris. we have become with president macron the most attractive country for foreign investments in europe, and we want to carry on. we took very strong decisions to cut red tape, to reduce the level of taxation, to put in place financial incentives for banks, for financial industry, and for private companies. once again, we want to further them. we are clearly at the turning

point in the world economy. there is a need of huge investment in climate transition, in defense, in innovation, in disruptive technologies. that's why we need the american investors, and i'm here in new york to say to the american investors, you've done a lot and we are very grateful for that, but, please, do a little bit more, one step further because we need you to face the huge challenges of the future. >> so, mr. minister, talk to us a little bit about how maybe your job is made easier or your pitch for these financial institutions to come to paris made that much more effective because of what has happened to london with brexit, with london no longer in the eu where paris has the ability to step up. >> i think that many american investors now understanding what the brexit means for the uk and for the finance in london. but i think that's not my first

argument. my first argument for the american investors is statistic. over the last seven years with president macron we have stuck to the same policy, reducing the level of taxation, investing in green industry, investing in innovation, in scientific skills so that we have become once again the most attractive country for foreign investment, and we will stick to the same path, to the same policy. this stability for financial investors is absolutely key. >> mr. minister, the pension reform was very contentious, and some of these changes by president macron to make the french economy more dynamic, how has he told the public on these changes or not? how is the french public adjusting to some of these fundamental changes to how france operates? >> well, first of all, we did it. we did the pension reform and,

of course, when you are introducing very strong reforms like the pension reform or the labor market reform, you can expect some we actions from the public opinion and from the french population. but the results are here. we have created more than 2 million jobs over the last seven years. we have created 100,000 jobs in the industry that some think are completely new in france. it is quite difficult to introduce necessary reforms, but it is a necessity to make the economy stronger and more successful. i think that people are now understanding that they can take a benefit from those reforms. as far as jobs are concerned, job creations, opening of new industrial plants for evs, for electric car batteries, we are

on the right direction and we are getting the positive results of those difficult reforms. >> french finance minister bruno le maire. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. thank you for stopping by. >> thank you so much. >> all right. coming up, donald trump ramped up his fascist rhetoric at a campaign rally in new hampshire over the weekend. we are going to go over the disturbing remarks from the former president. plus, nbc's richard engel joins us live from israel as the country continues its offensive in gaza amid mounting criticism over its bombing campaign. we are back in two minutes.

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yesterday president biden released a new video with barack obama in which they remind people obamacare is still available, but according to polls people really want to know if obama is still available. >> good morning and welcome to

"morning joe." it is monday, december 18th. donald trump is using more fascist rhetoric on the campaign trail. we will show you the latest disturbing comments from the former president. also ahead, we will go through the massive civil ruling against rudy giuliani, a sum that will bankrupt the former mayor of new york city. >> his attorney said it is basically a death penalty for, economic death penalty. an update from capitol hill on the foreign aid negotiations. the package which would provide critical funding for ukraine is being held up by republican demand for stricting immigration policies, is their hope. >> looks like there's progress there. >> might be some. we will get an analysis on the biden administration's push to get israel to scale back its war in gaza. what is going on there? with us we have the host of "way too early" white house chief at "politico" jonathan lemire. former aid to george w. bush and

state departments, elise jordan. the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation" reverend al sharpson joins us. and historian jon meacham is with us this morning. let's get to it. at a rally in new hampshire on saturday, donald trump once again used the language of 20th century authoritarians while separately praising this country's strong men. he also repeatedly referred to the people convicted of attacking the capitol on january 6th as hostages. again, said immigrants are, quote, poisoning the blood of our country. take a listen. >> we are like a rocket ship, is like a rocket ship sent by kim jong-un, just like that. who is very nice, i will tell you. he is not so fond of this administration, but he's fond of me and we had a very good

relationship. vladimir putin of russia says that bidens -- and this is a quote -- politically motivated persecution of his political rival is good for russia because it shows the rottenness of the political system. viktor orban said trump is the man that can save the western word. can you imagine the president of china, powerful guy -- they hate when i say that. say nice things. he controls 1.4 billion people rather ruthlessly, correct? >> i will direct a completely overhauled doj to investigate every radical, out-of-control fake, crooked prosecutor in america for their illegal racist and reverse enforcement of the law. >> if you remember, in minnesota, minneapolis where they took over the police station. they took it over and they burned it down. by the way, what happened to those people? are those people in jail with

the j6 hostage? what happened to those people come to think of it. they're not in jail with the j6 -- i don't call them prisoners, they're hostages, hostages. >> we have a lot of work to do. when they let, i think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country, when they do that we have a lot of work to do. they're poisoning the blood of our country. >> the crime is going to be tremendous. the terrorism is going to be, and we built a tremendous piece of the wall and then we're going to build more. >> all right. once again i misspoke. it is the century's strong man he was talking about. >> right. >> but, again, why do we show this? we always get that question, why do you give him attention. actually, this cannot be normalized and he is the republican front-runner. he is so far the republican's choice. >> yeah. well, not only -- it is getting more explicit. it is getting worse.

i am still shocked by the clowns who claim to be media critics out there. just absolute clowns that attack the media for reporting this. some say, you just don't get it, you don't understand his connection with the audience. you just have to understand that you're actually helping him by focusing on, you know, saying he's fascist. jon meacham, this is very straightforward. writing it down, he calls the worst tyrant on the planet, the most cruel tyrant, kim jong-un, he says he is very nice, that biden doesn't have a good relationship with him but he does. most presidents would take great, great honor in not having a good relationship with that thug. then vladimir putin, and this is the one that really sticks with me as donald trump is always talking about how horrible

america is, how terrible america is when he's not in office. he did it before, he's doing it after. he quotes vladimir putin approvingly to talk about how rotten american democracy is. he quotes president xi, says that he's rather ruthless and praises him and points to the media and says, they don't like it when i praise him and he goes on and praises him for being a guy that's got concentration camps with millions of people in it, says rather ruthless. talks about the january 6th hostages. we are talking about people who beat the hell out of cops. then, of course, goes back to echos of adolf hitler talking about the poisoning of the blood of this country. it is getting more explicit, and the fact that fools that are covering the horse race would

somehow attack writers, journalists for recording this and putting it to the readers without an explanation, oh, but he also is talking about economics that they related to. it seems to somehow -- talk about -- miss the much bigger point that we're in a fight for american democracy and he is becoming more and more explicit on how he wants to take american democracy down. >> we will never be able to say we were not warned, right? >> right. >> so we can move that off the table. there was not -- there's no surprise attack here. this is explicit. it is clear. just listen. and you are right, people who -- i don't know. i never can remember the phrase or i don't know wetting beds or being hysterical or what it is, but words matter, rhetoric -- the root of the word rhetoric is

action. and if you don't think this is serious, i don't think you are even remotely paying attention. i think one of the problems with the current era is that too many of us -- and i have been one, too, so this is a sinner, not a saint talking to say the least. is many of us have applied conventional rules of gravity, conventional rules of analysis, conventional rules of politics to what is an unconventional force. that is that it doesn't matter anymore where joe biden had a good week or a bad week. it doesn't matter if the white house staff is arguing about x or y. that's an analog way of envisioning and understanding our politics in what is an unfolding disaster.

i don't think it is -- in fact, it is not simple, but to use your word it is straightforward. my final view of this is we are on trial here, the american people are on trial here. and to the 15%, 20% of republicans who do know better i'm guessing but who for various reasons cannot bring themselves to ending this -- to voting against this fascistic force, i would just say you are a lot richer today than you were seven days ago, and you know i'm right. you all have -- you know, we have made some money here. this is not a disastrous era. there's not, you know, economic carnage in the streets for these elites and yet these elites are making this possible. and i think that insofar as

those folks can be reached, please, please, please listen to what your putative nominee is saying. >> yes. >> this is a moment, elise, where we have donald trump quoting vladimir putin, we have him praising xi, kim jong-un, we have him referring to january 6th convicts as hostages, and we have him using language that evokes what adolf hitler used to say. those in the white house have said to me, they made a compelling case in recent months, the biden white house, that they feel like americans aren't paying attention right now. it is too early, we are almost a year from the election. that next spring after the republican primaries, which are not competitive, are over and americans start actually listening to donald trump, as we move into the summer and next fall, it is a general election between biden and trump. when americans start paying attention again they will hear this from trump and reject it, they will say, we can't go down

that path again, we can't go down that path again. my question is, trump's poll numbers are only going up, in general survey after general survey is ahead of biden. moments ago the "wall street journal" said americans feel better about his policies than they do biden's. my question, are we sure americans are going to care? >> i don't think so. i think that you are going to have a week before the election 50 million low-information voters voting on how they feel the economy is doing right then that week in october 2024. i think that you see the extremism of american politics right now and you see the radicalization of so many of donald trump's supporters who are fine with his most extreme statements, they're fine with imprisoning journalists they disagree with, they're fine with, you know, they think that the political opposition is the enemy. so many americans believe that now, on the left and on the

right. when we become enemies and there's not any common ground worth finding with the other side whatsoever, how do you have a functioning democracy? >> i think that that is going to be the real test of the democratic party, to really say to people, "is this who you are." when he stands up there and explicitly embraces dictators and strong-arm people and has them commenting -- he quote it them commenting on an american election, if you vote for that then you are all right with that. i think that's what the democrats have to say. when he talks about how people from nonwhite countries in central america and africa, he names them, says that they are poisoning the blood of the country, which is as racist as you could get, i mean what does he have to do? put on a klan robe for someone

to say that's racist? you talk about young blacks, you'll vote for that? that's awe think of that, that you are poisoning the blood of america? i think it is not about biden. it is about who you are as a voter. are you co-signing this kind of politics. joe and mika, i think that this is what the real test for the democrats are, is to not make it about them. have everyone put a mirror in front of them and say is this who i am? am i a racist? am i one that believes in fascism? >> jonathan lemire, let me ask you though. one year from now it could be over. american democracy could be over. donald trump one year from now could win. he's told us what he is going to do. when i say american democracy is going to be over. i haven't said this, donald trump is the guy who said it. he is the one talking about executing generals who are not loyal enough to him, a guy talking about terminating the constitution if it gets in the

way of his power. he's the guy talking about taking off news networks he disagrees with. he is the one talking about prosecuting and putting in jail those who disagree with him. so it all could be over. the american experiment at an end one year from now. with that being the case and with joe biden's poll numbers getting worse, why is the white house going around singing "don't worry, be happy"? because that's what they're saying. why does joe biden have his campaign people in the white house? when are they going to start working on the campaign not of his lifetime, of our lifetime? when are they going to start acting like american democracy is on the line and stop telling everybody to not worry? >> yeah, i will start by echoing what you just said. anyone who thinks donald trump can't win can't win is kidding themselves. he absolutely can win. he has a 1 in 2 chance of winning, that's how close it is. i don't think we have enough

evidence to suggest his legal troubles will derail him. >> they won't. >> there's really good work over the weekend that suggests even a conviction in one of the cases, likely the federal interference case, wouldn't do enough to dent his support, that he could win even if convicted. this is the biden campaign that has been slow by design in ramping up. they've spent the last few months raising a lot of money. the president particularly in recent weeks went from fundraiser to fundraiser night after night. they think it will be a billion dollar campaign and they need the money and that's been their focus. they don't have any democratic primaries. yes, dean phillips, whatever, he is largely unchallenged here. they think they have the luxury of time. that said, they did respond to some pressure about a month or so ago and started ramping up the contrasts between trump and biden. they have done that. it has been a solid month they've been on the offensive, including pouncing on trump's comment over the weekend, the

hitler comparison. we had statements from the exam pain and the white house. you are right, the full-fledged campaign is a month or two away. they are letting the republican process play out before they ramp you have. that's the plan for now. not to say it can't change. we won't see president biden aggressively on the campaign trail for some weeks ahead and some democrats echo your worries, who feel like it might be getting too late, get out there now. coming up, will israel take president biden's advice to scale down the war in gaza? we'll get more coming up on "morning joe." ing up on "morning joe." e my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people

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now, giuliani has already been found liable. this trial was to determine

damages which ultimately came to $148 million. he frankly didn't help himself by showing no contrition and repeating his claims outside court on monday. watch as his spokesman tries to shut him down. >> i told the truth. they -- they were engaged in changing votes. >> there's no proof of that. >> oh, you're right there. is stay tuned. >> rudy giuliani you see today is the same man who cleaned up the streets of new york, took down the mafia -- >> isn't proof. >> let's go. >> wow, there is so much there that is pathetic. that money is desperately trying to coast off the guy giuliani was 20 years ago. is the rare attempt to "weekend at bernie's" someone who is still alive. he bailed on the sentence. you're always going to get to 9/11. just get in the [ bleep ] car, rudy. >> former trump lawyer rudy giuliani has been ordered to pay

$148 million in damages for his role in defaming two 2020 election workers. an eight-person jury decided on the final amount after a four-day civil trial that saw ruby freeman and her daughter, shea moss, testify that lies spread by giuliani after the election led to them receiving a wave of racist and violent threats. giuliani, along with the former president trump and others, repeatedly amplified false conspiracy theories freeman and moss were trying to change ballots in georgia. during the course of the trial giuliani admitted these claims were untrue. freeman spoke to reporters after the trial on friday. >> today's a good day. a jury stood witness to what rudy giuliani did to me and my daughter and held him accountable, and for that i'm

thankful. for now i want people to understand this. money will never solve all of my problems. i can never move back into the house that i called home. i will always have to be careful about where i go and who i choose to share my name with. i miss my home. i miss my neighbors, and i miss my name. >> i'm going to say something. >> my god. >> you know, it is unbelievable. giuliani made a statement. >> take it down. >> well, what -- he says the amount is absurd. what is absurd -- >> no, it is not. >> -- is that soon after the election, after rudy giuliani spread that lie, people that i know from all over the country that supported donald trump were saying, did you see what happened in georgia?

did you see what happened with the votes? do you see those two black women, what they did with the votes? they took the votes out of a box. like that happened because of rudy giuliani and that lie was spread -- >> and donald trump. >> -- all over the country, and donald trump. all over the country, and their lives as they knew it effectively ended that day. >> two election workers. think about the people serving the community. >> two election workers. let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg. chuck, when you look at this outcome, what are the implications for other cases for donald trump and i think the question everybody asks is will rudy giuliani ever have to pay a dime of anything to anybody or how does he actually truly experience accountability here? >> yeah, you know, that's a great question, mika. so the jurors' verdict, right,

the $75 million in punitive damages sends a very clear signal to anybody inclined to do what mr. giuliani did not to do it. i mean what he did was vile. what he did was egregiously wrong and dangerous. i don't know that he has the money to pay. i think the odds of ms. freeman and ms. moss getting $148 million are about 148 million to one. it is very unlikely to happen. they may get something. they certainly deserve it, and their reputations were harmed. >> what's the impact on rudy giuliani's life moving forward? what's the impact on his life after this verdict? >> you know, he's a broken man, joe. i have never really enjoyed, you know, this whole thing, you know, taking delight in the misery of others. that's not my thing. so what happens to him? the implications of a civil verdict pale in comparison to the implications of a criminal

verdict against him. remember, he's still under indictment in georgia. there's still a chance that he gets convicted and goes to jail. the implications for him there are much more severe and much more significant than they are here. does he ever have to pay money to these two good women? i hope so. will it be $148 million? not a chance. but the implications for him in other matters that he faces are incredibly significant. he could go to jail. >> now, reverend al, this is obviously a case you know a good bit about and followed it closely. what is your reaction to a verdict? again, this is not about shaud and freud. this is about a man who destroyed two good women's lives because they wanted to serve their country. >> a man -- >> and defamed them. >> he ruined their lives and he continues to defame them even today. >> he ruined their lives because he saw them as collateral damage

to his political ends and he saw them as worthless. i think with the verdict and the amount the jury gave is to show they're not worthless, whether they ever get $148 million or not the value of their lives has been affirmed by this jury and that's important. we must remember, rudy giuliani and i fought and never got along, were antithetical all of his mayorship. i hate to see someone who was the mayor of new york for eight years, became america's mayor, fall like this because it damages our perception of what those offices hold. even though i dislike a lot of what rudy giuliani stood for and the like, it is not good for us to have people that had reached that level to fall like this. the reason he was believed is because of the positions he

held. he took a stellar background and position and dumped on these innocent women that he felt was defenseless just like we fought over issues like stop and frisk. he felt people didn't matter. this verdict said people do matter and you can't use them as pawns for your political objective. so i think that's the significance of it. i agree with chuck. i don't think we ought to celebrate the demise of rudy giuliani. we ought to celebrate that people's worth has been underscored by this jury. no one is expendable. >> yeah. and i understand that. i am certainly not interested in celebrating anybody's demise. at the same time when donald trump has this civil suit, when e. jean carroll sues him for defamation and now these two women win a massive, massive amount in a defamation ruling, the question is do people who

are sued and lose in these civil suits actually experience any ramifications or can they declare bankruptcy, can they kind of skirt the law? i wonder beyond the message that they have value and that they were defamed, the guy continues to defame them. so i want to understand what the consequence is that actually stops the behavior. >> look, it is an intentional -- >> the abuse. >> bankruptcy won't protect rudy giuliani. i do want to say this, jon meacham, and then we will circle back to chuck. jon, it seemed for the longest time he could say whatever he wanted to say in the world of trump and in trump's bubble, and it just didn't matter. you would have people go on tv every night just lying through their teeth, spreading vicious

lies, attacking american democracy, saying american democracy was rigged, and we see with rudy giuliani $148 million defamation verdict. we saw with fox news after their hosts lied about voting machines $787 million verdict many we saw with alex jones lying about sandy hook parents a $1 billion verdict. there is still another billion or two to be sorted out for fox news again moving forward. there's always been in the law, there's always been the verdict and then the collection, and the collection process, trust me, mika, there are lawyers up and down the east coast who will take that verdict and will spend the rest of their -- of rudy giuliani's days trying to

recover that verdict because they'll strike a deal where they will get a percentage of whatever is recovered from rudy giuliani. but, jon, as far as a fair and open debate, i think it is worth celebrating that words still do matter. there's still for lies, for defamation, for attacking people, attacking american democracy, it still comes at a cost. >> i think a lot of it, don't you, tell me, assess the validity of this statement as college exams say, i think a lot of this came out of the -- the phrase is not mine, but the political entertainment media complex that was -- has been so strong on the american right. there's this capacity, this willingness, has been this willingness to live in this world where everything was about

the cable hit, right? everything was about kiron, everything was about stirring up the base because the base kept your ratings strong. there was a pretend world where the folks that say this stuff realize it is not pretend, that this is quite real, that there are people trying to count ballots, there are people trying to ensure free and fair elections, there are people, there are judges and judges' clerks, right, there are prosecutors, there are the civil servants that the president and the governor of florida have both promised to fire as quickly as they can. so there are these people who make -- to bring this back around to where we were, who make american democracy work. is it perfect?

no. as a large human enterprise, is it more perfect than we have a right to expect? yeah, i think so. so why aren't we lifting up -- >> right. >> -- the process? why aren't we reaffirming these guardrails? which is what the founders wanted, which is what conservatives, hello, are supposed to want, right? >> yeah. >> there's an entire judicial philosophy that is dominant on the supreme court for all sorts of political reasons that's about the original intent of a document that is about checking ambition. if it is going to take the civil courts, if it is going to take the criminal courts to do it, then let's pray and work for the legitimacy of those institutions. will any of this change the 2024 election? i don't know. but i do know this. we are certainly not going to do

ourselves any favors if we shut up about it. if we say, oh, it is really about the economy -- >> right. >> -- a presidential election is about whatever x hundred million people want it to be about. but it seems to me the obligation of folks who want the constitution to endure is to defend that constitution. coming up, republican presidential candidate governor ron desantis is standing by. he joins us for an extended live interview, straight ahead on "morning joe." comfy & confident protection that feel just like normal. with so many styles and colors to choose from, switching is easy at knix.com

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it is not that he thinks guys have gotten better. he just thinks there have been better opportunities led by purdy. curls out of trouble. down field! wide open.

mccaffrey gets up to run with it for the touchdown. >> looking. now throws! end zone, touchdown, jawan johnson. >> looking long for cooper kupp. he's wide open. he's got it in stride! he's going to go in. >> chris goblin has been fantastic. >> third and four. that pass is caught by moore. first down and moore. david moore exploding to the end zone! >> on second and four, same look that began the drive. it is a screen to edwards who has a convoy, into patriots' territory. stays on his feet. stays in bounds and takes it all the way to the 15. >> dolphins begin at their own 40. going deep. going deep! right there! what a perfect pass and play, and the touchdown to jalen

waddle. >> cook again, wide on. james cook through every one. he scores gem. fields. chased by garrett. sets up, throwing deep. hail mary. end zone. deflected. oh. tipped and intercepted! >> what? >> oh, come on. come on, man. >> that's amazing. >> that is a guy who will never get a drink poured for him in chicago again. a look at some of the highlights from yesterday's nfl games including the 49ers clinching the nfc west with a win over the cardinals, a bounceback victory for the chiefs after last week's meltdown. you just saw the nail-biting final play in the browns/bears game. browns escaping a victory over the bears after chicago nearly converted the game-winning hail mary. touchdown on the last second attempt. >> look at that. let's bring in the host, pablo torey. >> pablo. >> we saw a lot of great

highlights. yay, go of nfl. i can't wait to talk to you about how great the 49ers are. >> sure. >> how the bills came out of nowhere and crushed a rising dallas team. >> yeah. >> first, let's follow up on your thesis for the year, and i certainly agree with you. this is such a mediocre league. >> thank you. >> three or four years ago you could watch game after game after game and sit there going, well, there's a reason -- that's why they played -- they're the best. now i'm sitting there going, oh, my god, you run your route that way? oh, my god, you can't even turn around and like block back side? there's just genuinely horrific play. we're used to seeing that in college, right? we are used to seeing college, go, well, they're college players. but in the pros, you're right, brady's right. there's so much mediocrity in the nfl this year.

>> yeah, and it is okay to say it, you know. the nfl is our lone remaining mono culture, well, the nfl and taylor swift which is not coincidental, of course, how they've come together in a story we may or may not talk about. the reality is it is okay to point out we all watch this thing even if it is not that good. that's the reality of it. in fact, maybe the reason we are looking towards the sky box, towards taylor swift is because what is on the field is not quite as interesting lately. this is coming from a person who has been addicted to various forms of football, fantasy and otherwise, for two decades. >> right. what's your operating theory here? >> my operating theory, well, i think there's a lot of quarterbacks getting injured, joe. i think that's a big part of it. we can talk about jake blouning browning and joe flacco, guys piloting in the bengals and the browns and it doesn't end there. jonathan lemire is to my left and he's a patriots fans.

the institutions that this country has come to rely on are not quite so resilient anymore and bill belichick seems to be one of those. it is the top and bottom of the league crumbling at this point rnlt coming up, can congress find a path forward on ukraine, israel and so much more? we will go live to capitol hill where the senate will be back at work today even as the house is out of town. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪ the tides i tried to swim against ♪ ♪ pulled me down upon my knees ♪ ♪ oh, i beg, i beg and plead singing ♪ ♪ come out of things unsaid ♪ ♪ shoot an apple ♪ ♪ shoot an apple ♪

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♪ ♪ 48 past the hour. as we gear up for the heavy holiday travel season, one airline is paying for its

mistakes last year. this morning the department of transportation announced a $140 million fine against southwest airlines for its meltdown during last year's holiday rush. remember that? it is the largest consumer protection violation penalty in department history. more than 2 million southwest customers were left stranded a year ago after the airline cancelled almost 17,000 flights. joining us now, u.s. transportation secretary pete buttigieg. mr. secretary -- i want to call you mayor pete -- tell us about this new precedent. what type of deterrence are you hoping that it will create in the travel industry and what do we have to look ahead to for the christmas holiday? >> well, that's exactly the idea, mika. this is not just about holding southwest accountable for the holidays and plans that were destroyed a year ago, but also

about setting a new precedent. this is a multiple, depending on how you do the math, about 30 times the biggest penalty we have ever assessed because we really need to send a message to the entire airline industry that you have to take care of passengers, do the right thing, run your operations well, or there will be a consequence, and our department will hold you accountable. what is happening in this case is $140 million penalty. now, about $35 million of that is a cash fine, but we wanted to make sure the majority of it doesn't go to the u.s. treasury but rather goes to customers. so as part of this settlement southwest will have to pay $75 vouchers going forward to any other passengers over the next three years who are stranded, have a delay of more than three hours or a cancellation that southwest is responsible for. it is really forward looking as well as dealing with what happened just about a year ago. now, i will say this.

airlines have performed much better so far in 2023 than they did in 2022. you remember, a year and a half ago even on days when the weather was good airlines were having major problems getting passengers to where they needed to go. this year in the summer holidays and thanksgiving we saw extraordinarily high volume. in fact, the sunday after thanksgiving we had the most airline passengers ever in u.s. history and cancellations were less than one-half of 1%. we've seen real improvements. my hope and expectation is that will continue. if it doesn't, we are here to protect passengers and hold the airlines responsible. >> right. you've definitely set that precedent and sent that message. looking ahead to christmas, any trouble spots you are concerned about? ncerned about?

>> all of the system were clobbered by a major winter storm. the difference is other airlines bounced back quickly, southwest did not and failed their customers in a number of ways which is why they're experiencing this penalty. was we look to the days ahead, we are seeing some indications of weather. this system is going to be tested, but there are dramatically more passenger protections than there were a year and a half ago. so if an airline fails to take care of passengers in any way that's under their control, you can expect and demand a level of support in terms of things like rebooking, things like having your hotel and meal costs covered. that just wasn't the case a couple of years ago. and for anybody planning to travel, strongly encourage you to spend a couple of minutes on our website, flightrights.gov to become familiar what to expect from your specific airline in the event there's a problem. i want to turn your to a

different topic. "the new york times" had a report out about drug problems and others talked about the number of close calls and suggested those could increase if things don't dramatically change. give us your response and what can be done to alleviate concerns. >> we never take the aviation safety record of this country for granted. it is one of the marvels of our time that the safest way to travel, of anyway to travel is to fly through the air. 16 million flights a year arrive safely and it is because of a system with a lot of checks and balances, redundancy, and the heart of that entire system is our air traffic controllers. our air traffic controllers are overworked. any awe you count it we do not have the workforce we should in terms of the numbers for a decade or more. the number of air traffic controllers has gone down and

down and down. that's finally changed. on our watch we have the number going up, we are hiring at a faster rate than the rate of attrition but we have to pick up the pace on that. our budget proposals for next year do exactly that, increase the pace of hiring air traffic controllers so you have fewer of the schedules that can put a drain on controllers, less likelihood there will be unreasonable levels of overtime. all of that can happen and will happen if we get the right funding. i have to say it is one of about a million different reasons why we should not be coming back from the holidays in january next year and immediately looking at the prospect of a shutdown. if a shutdown were to happen that would stop us in our tracks, and some of the house gop budget proposals also would be at the expense of air traffic control. we need to be doing the exact opposite. we need to be growing, doubling down, adding to the workforce, improving the technology. yes, that takes funding but that funding is an investment in the safety and stability of our aviation system, the safest and

most complex in the world. >> secretary, we're talking so much about air travel because americans are so dependent on it. e so dependent on it >> we are funding the bright line west project that is aiming by olympics if they meet their marks in 2028 to have passengers going from las vegas to california. we are funding california high speed that runs north/south. we never claimed it is going to produce nationwide network. o produce nationwide network

>> it will take a little while to get that industry fully up and running on american soil but i think in the long run it can create a lot of high-paying jobs we are excited about. >> all right. u.s. secretary of transportation, pete buttigieg. >> coming up, we will get a live report from richard engel in jerusalem. we will talk about -- about -

welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." look at los angeles, where the sun has yet to come up. it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. jonathan lemire and elise jordan are still with us as we launch the fourth hour. our top story this hour, the united kingdom and germany are now joining the growing calls for a ceasefire as israel ramps up attacks in gaza. israel has come under increased scrutiny over protecting civilian lives after soldiers mistakenly shot and killed three hostages on friday. richard engel has the latest. >> reporter: the three israeli hostages in gaza made white flags to warn their own army not to shoot, smearing "sos" in old food and writing in hebrew

"help, three hostages." the israeli troops mistakenly shot them. they say the hostages took off their shirts so no one would think they have an explosive device and held a white cloth on a pole to identify themselves. they came speaking hebrew, calling for help, he said, telling the troops never to shoot anyone with their hands up. the families of hostages still in gaza are outraged, calling daily for prime minister benjamin netanyahu to resume negotiations with hamas and bring their loved ones home. >> i am angry that the government let this situation get so far. i am angry at the world that it's not forcing a deal right now, because this is the only way to bring them back home.

>> reporter: under u.s. plesh pressure, this weekend israel opened a second crossing into gaza for humanitarian supplies, but it's still far too little. a 12-year-old displaced from her home in northern gaza says she waits in line for hours to get food for her family. every day i wake up at 8:00 and leave for the food bank. sometimes we spend the day without eating anything, she says. human rights watch accused israel of using starvation as a war crime. the israeli military continues to make its case for the offensive, releasing video of what it calls the largest tunnel it's found underneath the gaza strip and showing the man identified as a brother of a top hamas leader driving through it. nbc news has not been able to

identify the footage. >> richard, how is israel responding to the pressure from the families of the hostages? >> reporter: well, officially the israeli government has issued many statements of condolences, many statements of regret. the chief of the army has said this was avoidable. prime minister netanyahu said he bows his head in respect and mourns with the country. they have said officially that they will continue to put pressure militarily on hamas and continue the war. but what we are seeing now is also a resumption of ceasefire talks and those talks are under way now nbc news can confirm with the director of the cia and the mossad and senior qatari officials. the talks are back trying to secure some sort of hostage deal, but the parameters are not

totally clear, i'm told by people directly involved in these conversations that so far the israelis only want to talk about tactical issues, they only want to talk about the hostages, how many could be freed, under what terms, how many palestinian prisoners might be freed and that hamas wants to talk about a longer term solution. hamas has made it clear what its term is, if there is to be another ceasefire, it wants it to be a permanent ceasefire, not just another week and then israel resumes again. still very difficult negotiations ahead, but they are happening now. >> richard, i want to ask you about this latest update about israeli officials learning how hamas was financing operations back in 2018 and apparently did nothing about it, this according to the "new york times," which reviewed documents pilfered from

the computer of a senior hamas official. the leer listed asss were hundreds of millions of dollars, including skyscrapers in the uae and a real estate firm listed on the turkish stock exchange. the times writes, this was a potential road map for choking off hamas's money and thwarting the documents were shared with washington but the times reports none of the companies faced sanctions from the u.s. or israel for years. they were also never publicly called out or pressured by turkey to shut down. instead, officials were focused on putting financial pressure on iran. now, according to the times, tens of millions of dolrs flowed from the companies to hamas at the exact moment that it wasg new weapons. israeli and americanfficials nowdmit that money laid the

groundwork for the october 7th attacks. >> on top of that, we of course, got the report that doha just a month before the attacks asked netanyahu's government, do you want us to continue funding hamas's government? and netanyahu's people said yes. what's the reaction in israel? >> the question is how is it that hamas got so rich under the watch of israeli prime minister netanyahu? the answer that many israelis have and have had for a long time is having hamas in power in gaza benefitted prime minister netanyahu because he had an obvious enemy. he had an extremist in power on the palestinian side in gaza at least who he did not have to negotiate with. therefore, it was very easy. you close off gaza. you leave hamas in power.

then you can say to the world there is no other solution, there is no partner to deal with, as opposed to having a more moderate reasonable government that you want to talk to on the palestinian side, because if you talked to a moderate reasonable government on the palestinian side, then you have to cut a deal, you have to have a two-state solution, and this government has made it clear it does not want to have a two-state solution. if that's your basic arguele point, then it helps you if you have someone on the other side who doesn't want a two-state solution either. >> richard engel, live in jerusalem, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. >> jonathan lemire, what is the latest from the white house? they're continuing strained relations with netanyahu, of course, especially when you're finding out that israeli hostages are coming out with a white flag up, their shirts off to show they have no explosives

and still getting shot dead? >> yeah, an extraordinary tragedy there. defense secretary lloyd austin in the region would be the latest high-level biden emissary to press to change how they're conducting this war. this comes at a moment where we're seeing a sharp uptick in international pressure on israel to agree to some sort of more substantial ceasefire. a number of european countries signed onto that over the weekend. the united states has issued increasingly stern warnings from washington about trying to limit civilian casualties in gaza. at this point, israeli officials are simply not listening. within a week or two of this war breaking out, president biden and his team have really soured on netanyahu's leadership and they do think at a certain point netanyahu will be made to move on in the israeli government,

but they don't know when that is. therefore, he's the person they have to deal with. he's the ally they have been given. at this point they're not willing to put conditions on aid, the at least if aid is ever sent that way because congress has not done so. the rhetoric has changed, but at least to this point, the actions haven't. >> we heard in richard's report that israel opened a second crossing into gaza for humanitarian supplies over the weekend. joining us now, commissioner general of the united nation. sir, i guess, first of all, what is the concern at this point that any relief is getting to the people who need it? we're hearing that people could be close to dying of hunger. what do you hope israel will do in all of this? are you looking for a pause? >> it is true that we are

calling for a ceasefire, because we also believe that very soon people will start to die not just because of the bombardment, but because of the impact of the siege. it will be a combination of weakened immunity, of hunger and also the winter when you ever an increased number of diseases. so we have no doubt about this. today we are so struggling to reach the people. we have called and we will continue to call for a ceasefire. >> there are many gazans who are at risk of dying of starvation, not just because of the war. what has to be done to get food to people dying of starvation right now? >> you have to lift the siege. you have to bring meaningful

support. you need also the private sector. what we need now is a crossing at scale of trucking for the weeks to come. it is true we never ever spoke about hunger in gaza, and now, as we saw just before, you have families that will have to skip food or meals for one day, sometimes two days. many of them were telling me finding food is a daily struggle. >> can you give us an update on fuel in gaza? for many weeks the israeli army was not letting any fuel at all to go in. now there has been some. can you give us your estimate as

to whether it's nearly enough for what is needed? >> today the situation has improved compared to few weeks ago. it is true that we can provide fuel to a certain number of the hospitals, to the bakery. but for the broader population, the quantity of fuel coming in together, which is about 180,000 liters a day, is far from enough. >> commissioner general of the u.n. agency for palestinian refugees, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. senators are returning to the capitol this morning as negotiators work toward reaching a deal on immigration reform and border security in exchange for additional aid for ukraine and israel. for the latest, let's bring in

julie. >> reporter: having covered these meetings, it doesn't look likely. we knew this was an ambitious timeline heading into the weekend. hispanic lawmakers expressed frustration at the white house for going too far in compromising the republicans. on the flip side, you have republicans who say they want time to read what a framework could look like. they want time to understand a deal. leader mcconnell said we're not going to vote this week. nonetheless, negotiaors will meet later this afternoon, but the differences remain large. >> thank you very much. now this, donald trump is vowing to cut taxes for his,

quote, rich as hel supporters if he returns to the white house. at a private fundraiser in mar-a-lago, trump called on attendees to donate to the campaign of a north carolina gubernatorial candidate telling them, quote, you are all people who have a lot of money. then moments later he promised to give those people tax cuts in a possible second term. >> you've got to help them financially, because you're all people that have a lot of money. i know you're rich as hell. >> amen, amen. >> we're going to close the border. we're going to give you tax cuts. we're going to pay off our debt. we're going to do all of the things we have to do. >> the quiet part out loud, he's going to give tax cuts to people who are rich as hell, and he attacks immigrants, he attacks the poorest.

how about this for your evangelical world view? you support a guy that promises to cut taxes for people who were, quote, rich as hell after they were already given the largest tax cuts, billionaires and multinational corporations in 2017. and then just for the hell of it, he kicks around immigrants. doesn't exactly sound like a story out of the gospels. >> it's so striking, the dynamic where no political figure has ever lied as much as donald trump. he could be remarkably honest at times and he's clearly telling us the truth as to what he's going to do. he's going to give his rich friends tax cuts. he did the same in the white house where he told a group of donors, i just made all of you richer because of the tax cuts

for the super rich. then that's twinned with this idea of the anti-immigrant rhetoric, which has taken off in some of the republican party. we saw over the weekend from that speech in new hampshire, a darker, uglier, scarier donald trump than we've ever heard before. >> the language he uses when he talks about immigration is just absolutely abhorrent. there is a crisis on the border. americans see the chaos down there. now immigration is the number two concern after the economy in a recent poll. talking about it this way is not a solution. donald trump didn't get the wall built, so that's something that his republican competitors could hit him up a little bit more on. i think biden actually built 20 miles. trump built 50. >> elise, you bring up a great

point. donald trump, four of his five children, have mothers who immigrated to the united states, first-generation immigrants. wasn't his mother an immigrant as well to the united states? lemire, you've written all the books about him. >> from scotland, yes. >> again, his mother, an immigrant to the united states and two of his wives are immigrants to the united states, four of his five children are the childrenfirst-generation immigrants. it's just so laughable. >> it's so predictable.

>> rules don't apply to donald trump. he just doesn't have to -- everyone else can do as he says, but he's just not constrained by anything. it's been intriguing to watch how these trials play out, because is he ever going to face an ounce of accountability? >> he's certainly not constrained by the truth. coming up on "morning joe," republican presidential candidate ron desantis spent the weekend campaigning in iowa. we'll be sticking around this week for events alongside several of his national endorsers. the florida governor joins us live from des moines straight ahead on "morning joe." live from des moines straight ahead on "morning joe. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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the iowa caucuses. joining us now from des moines is republican presidential candidate florida governor ron desantis. good to have you with us this morning. >> governor, thank you so much for being with us. we got some polls over the past weekend. despite what we've been hearing from the trump campaign and others, this race may not be over quite yet. nikki is moving in new hampshire. you're in second place in iowa right now. what's your pathway to victory in iowa? >> let me say there's a lot of disappointed college football fans in north florida, because your alabama crimson tide -- >> oh my god! >> the undefeated florida state seminoles to get into the college playoff. we haven't had the love in college football in florida for a long time as a state. you all go almost every year. i had to tell my young kids, who are all florida state fans, why they were undefeated and didn't

make the playoffs. here in iowa, this is all about showing up and lining up people to caucus for you. we've been to all 99 counties. we get people to sign the cards to say we're going to come. we're going to have the biggest organization and support going into a caucus. i think people in iowa and new hampshire expect you to come and answer your questions, ask for their vote. i think what donald trump will do. he'll parachute in for 45 minutes, an hour, give a speech and then just leave. we've actually listened to folks, answered their questions and taken in a lot of their advice about what they want to see about the country. i think you're going to see that on caucus night. historically these polls in the caucus are tough because it's tough to identify who's going to go there for three hours and

caucus and also what happens in the caucus sites. we've got the best organization for that, all the counties and precincts organized. we're excited about what we've been able to do. we have the governor kim reynolds' endorsement. the people on the ground here they kind of shake their head at some of the polls, because they know the areas where there was rapid trump support, say, in 2016 and 2020. they say things have changed on the ground. i think that's true for both iowa and new hampshire. >> evangelical leaders, some are just saying flat out they don't think the polls are going to reflect the outcome. even if you do end up winning in iowa, will donald trump admit it? he didn't admit it when ted cruz beat him in 2016? >> no, of course not. that's baked in the cake.

we win iowa and he'll say something. people aren't going to buy that, especially here in iowa. they take pride in having the first caucus. ultimately the great thing about the way this is done with the smaller constituencies going first is that, once people start voting, that changes all the punditry and changes everything. clearly there's been a concerted effort to say that trump -- why even bother having people vote? that is not the way people feel on the ground in iowa. people have said from the beginning about how there were so many candidates running. the field has narrowed already before iowa. i think you're going to continue to see that after the first few primaries. >> good morning. it's jonathan lemire. i want to talk about a crisis you may inherit if you become commander in chief. that's the situation in israel and the war against hamas. your campaign has made it clear,

saying you have the clearest, most consistent pro-israel policy in the race. i want to ask you as to your assessment of israel's military tactics with a number of civilian casualties growing by the week. a lot of outside groups are warning about what israel is doing. do you feel israel is conducting this war appropriately? >> i think israel takes great strides to minimize collateral damage, because they have such a microscope internationally coming down on them. when these attacks happen on october 7th i said we stand with israel. everyone was saying that. as we get in weeks and months of this, a lot of the scrutiny is going to be on israel. i think they do take great pains to focus on hamas terrorists. at the end of the day, hamas is

what put us in this situation. i'd like to see more people calling on hamas to unconditionally surrender and release more hostages. most of the opposition is directed at israel, but they're in a situation where they have a terrorist group on their border that wants to annihilate their entire country and drive every jew into the sea. i don't think that's an option for them right now. >> the funding for israel in the united states is being linked to this border security package for israel and ukraine. that deal is being negotiated in the senate. would you approve of that measure? what do you make oh of the border security negotiations that have been discussed at this point? >> i can tell you this. one of the most frequent questions i get is, why is it that they're sending money

overseas when they're not willing to take care of problems at home such as our border. it is a national security issue. i think republicans should absolutely -- it's not just money. it's really changing the law and the policy so things like parole can't be abused. there's no question that open border has made us more vulnerable. i think they need to put their foot down. what they shouldn't do is negotiate some type of deal where there's a mirage of border security and nothing changes. that's just lucy with the football, charlie brown whiffing again. >> governor, there's a lot of concern about this presidential election in terms of concerns about our democracy as we know it. the atlantic devoted an entire issue to the threat of a second trump term. so my question to you is, do you

think donald trump is a threat to democracy? >> look, i think donald trump, when he was president, i think that he really didn't take some of the action that he could have constitutionally taken. i understand there's a narrative saying he's going to be much different this next term. i look back, what didn't he do? he didn't move forcefully to build the border wall. he didn't fire people like anthony fauci from the covid-19 task force when many conservatives were saying they needed to go a different direction. even gave fauci an award his last day in office. a lot of the people he appointed, he's since trashed after leaving office, but he could have fired them. he didn't really take any action to reform the bureaucracy or curb the administrative state. he deferred a lot of his

presidency to some of these people that he now criticizes. >> right. and with respect even just over the weekend he was talking about the january 6th insurrectionists, those who were tried and convicted as hostages and he was talking about dictators around the world and how much he loves them and he's such good friends with them. you don't have any concern about the comments that he is making? >> it's interesting on the january 6th protest. he called that rally knowing that was going to be in d.c. where things could get potentially out of hand. he's now saying he would do clemency for, i guess, the nonviolent. he could have done that when he was president. he taken responsibility. he could have said that the people -- not the violent people. obviously that's a bird of a different feather. but on the people that were there just as protesters and

kind of got caught up in it, he could have granted clemency to them and chose not to, because i think he was told if he did that, he could have risked being convicted at a senate impeachment trial. he could have done that before he left office. >> do you think there were people that were railroaded that took part in the january 6th riots? >> i think there were people that came because he said to protest the election. i don't think that they intended to do -- some of the people that were convicted of things like trespassing, you see videos where you'll have police officers actually motioning for people to go in. you'll see where they were just taking pictures in statuary hall. obviously they would not have been there but for the trump rally, and those were his people. so the question is, somebody that was there, nonviolent, probably didn't intend to do

anything when they showed up that day, he could have done things to potentially alleviate burdens on them and he didn't. now he says he's going to do it, but he didn't when he was president. >> you're, of course, separating nonviolent from violent. >> of course, absolutely. >> with a much broader brush. say, even people that beat the hell out of cops with american flags, he's praising. let me ask you something. you're younger than i am and i'm not exactly sure when you became a republican, why you became a republican. ronald reagan was my inspiration. a big part of it is our family are cold warriors from way back. that's why i'm confused when i hear donald trump praising communist dictators across the world. i know, like most republican candidates, you don't want to have to answer for donald trump all the time. i guess that.

you want to talk about yourself. i am confused, though. i'm hoping that you may be able to help me out here on this one. when he's praising the leader of communist china, when he raises kim jong-un, one of the most tyrannical communists on the globe, when he praises vladimir putin and says, hey, putin said that america's rotten, all of this other stuff, i don't have to say that if ronald reagan heard it, he'd be rolling in his grave, because you and i both know he would. can you give me any insight from what you know about donald trump, why he seems to always praise these communist thugs? >> well, the thing about you point out with xi, he ran in

2016 with a very strong policy against china. he talked about china ripping us off and getting away with building up military. that was a key thing. yet when it came time to be president, he didn't take the forceful action that he did. in fact, when covid hit, which was really the time he could have marshalled a lot of support, he was praising xi about how well he did with the virus early on. you and i both know, china covered up what was going on. >> not only that. not only did he praise him, he said on behalf of the american people we thank president xi and china for their openness when you had people in his own administration like matthew pottinger desperately trying to get information out of china because he knew they were lying to him. >> yeah. and i think that part of what

also was motivating was he wanted the trade deal. he had done the phase one. that obviously has since broken down. but he really wanted the phase two. i think it was striking a deal above all else. but the reality was we were in a situation there where we absolutely should have taken more forceful action. no one's ever done anything to hold china accountable for their role in that. didn't do very much either to hold china accountable for their role in the fentanyl. there is a different in the rhetoric of the 2016 campaign vis-a-vis klein and how he actually dealt with xi jinping. he does frequently say it's really impressive xi is able to rule over a billion people with an iron fist, i think he says. >> you said something the other day in your cnn town forum that i agree with, that donald trump put us on the path to these

inflationary times. how would your economic policy differ from donald trump, and would you extend the trump tax cuts? >> well, i also would point out i think the first three years the economy was largely good under donald trump. i think his regulatory policy was good. i think his energy policy was good. i think his tax policy was largely good too. clearly i wouldn't want to see individual tax rates go up. so we would want to extend those. there's kind of a narrative that's developed in conservative media that somehow like all four years were so great. 2020 was a bad year for this country. it started in march of 2020 with how they responded to covid. he was criticizing nations like sweden who took a more modest approach, kept everything going, reduced the panic. in reality, that is the approach he should have taken here. so that covid panic really lead to not just the 2 trillion in

the cares act but the 2.2 trillion in december of 2020. we'd never spent that much money. people were saying at the time that somehow there wasn't going to be impacts, and you didn't see inflation right away, but you don't get inflation for 18 to 24 months after you see those types of events. i think it was a combination of both democrats and republicans in congress, obviously the trump administration, and then biden came in and did at $1.9 million in march of 2023. both parties have their fingerprints on it. we've got to start spending money more in line with sustainability. we should not have locked in the levels of spending we have since covid. i don't think it's sustainable. we've obviously added debt at a record number. >> to that point, plenty of conservatives supported adding to that debt at the tiemtime.

how would you have approached a bailout and spending? because every republican who seems to get in power, they still spend away. >> it's interesting. in iowa we had congressman tom massey from kentucky came up. he objected to the cares act being voted. he took a lot of heat for that. he predicted a lot of the inflation. he tells the story. i was the only elected official that called him and told him i think you're right on this, i think you're going to take a lot of heat. but i think a year or two down the line people are going to look back and say those were mistakes. how do you do that? if you look back historically we've had probably in the last 40 years we've had three times

republicans pushed against spending. president reagan did push against domestic spending. he would veto bills from congress. they would override them a few times. then in 1994 congress pushed clinton to a balanced budget. then we have the tea party pushed obama a few times. i think the only times republicans have been in, they haven't spent much different than democrats have. >> it's been a nightmare, actually. you're right. we balanced the budget four years in a row in the late '90s and early 2000s. the deficit doubled under bush and kept going up under barack obama. even under donald trump, the first three years there were record breaking deficit, debt, budgets, out of control spending. would things be any different if you were president?

>> yeah, they would. >> if you're republican president, would you be the first republican president this century that doesn't double the debt? >> yeah, we will. we'll lean in, use the veto pen, exercise leadership and get people on the same page. i remember president trump telling me, look, no one's ever lost an election because of the deficit or spending too much money. that actually may be true, but i think that's not where we have the luxury of being at this point. just the sheer amount of increase in the debt, turn of thest century our debt was $5 trillion. now we're at 33 trillion. this has been a unique failure in just the last 25 years. >> it was 5 trillion turn of the century.

it went to 19 trillion when obama was out of office. trump took it from 19 to over 30. >> it's crazy. >> florida governor ron desantis, thank you very much. thanks for coming on the show. >> thank you. coming up, our next guest says the iconic peanuts holiday special, "a charlie brown christmas" is more jewish in spirit than you may think. >> by the way, this is a great article in the times yesterday. we're going to talk about this when we return. e return

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bring you tidings of great joy to all people, for unto you is born this day in the city of david a savior, christ the lord. you shall find a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes lying in a manger. glory to god in the highest and on earth peace and good will toward men. >> in the 1965 tv special "a charlie brown christmas" linus quotes from the gospel of luke to explain the meaning of christmas to charlie brown. chief tv critic for the "new york times" has a new piece for the paper entitled "my jewish charlie brown christmas" in which he wondered why the holiday classic speaks to him so deeply. jim joins us now. it's linus, isn't it, jim?

>> yes. >> thank you so much. this is great on so many fronts. also your personal story, your mother, a jewish immigrant, your father, a christian, your mom making your dad take you to church and drag you to church at times and all the parallels here. but this special was so subversive for 1965. it's subversive because it attacked crass commercialism. you said that even charles schulz's producers were panicked. >> they tried to talk him out of including the new testament verse in it.

this wasn't something you really did on commercial television. people are a lot more comfortable with rudolph and the jingle bells and all that. you know, he treated -- he stuck to his guns. to me, as somebody with a complex background who is jewish, i admire that. i admire the directness of it. the just sort of honesty. this is what christmas is. it's what it's about.it, the honesty. this is what christmas is. it's what it's about. it's not proselytizing. it's not trying to convert anybody. but it's very earnest and heartfelt. >> i love you going through and

saying as a jewish kid how you related to it. why don't we start with linus. >> linus, i will say, has always been one of my favorite peanuts characters. he's somebody who, just speaking for myself, codes to me a little jewish in the sense of the pop culture archetype of the brain any, jewishfriend. he talks charl brown through his depressions and newer row cease. every halloween he sits in a pumpkin patch and awaits the messiah. he's sort of an overthinker which is something that i personally identify with and very, very earnest. linus clearly is not jewish, but is he jew-ish in spirit?

i definitely think he reads that way to me. >> james, loif going back and watching charlie brown's christmas with my little girl. we also took a dive into frosty the snowman and the classic rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. what other holiday classics are your favorites this time of year? >> oh, gosh, really the peanuts special, it's head and shoulders above everything for me. i love the stephen colbert christmas special he did several years ago. i don't know if you've seen that. that's much more adult, but all of the other reindeer is a very nice one. not too many hanukkah specials out there unfortunately.

rug rats did one at one point. >> can you talk generally about charles schulz? i think you will be comfortable doing this, because i will sigh, growing up as a kid, i think you and i are a lot alike. this was for me a peanuts special and a new book of charles schulz cartoon, peanuts cartoons. that was just the best for me. the older i got, it was really these cartoons, the older i got, the more i appreciated just the beauty and genius of charles schulz. >> yeah, they're beautiful. they're funny. special the stuff in the '50s, '60s, it's philosophical it's written for kids but very

adult in that a lot of the themes, not just charlie brown, but about uncertainty and questions that don't have answers, and why do bad things happen to good people? charlie brown is basically an embodiment of that question. i think it's very without being preachy or full of itself, rich in these themes in addition to being super entertaining. i also addictively collected peanuts collection books. but i think that's a reason that it just ages well over the generations. and i can go back to it as an adult and shap it in the same way. >> chief tv critic for "the new york times," james poniewozik, thank you. >> thank you. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." much more "morning joe."

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." time for final thoughts. let's go first to new england patriots fan jonathan we're. >> i'm not going to speak about bill belichick. it makes me entirely too sad. on a far more serious matter, i think we should end the show where we began it, the dangerous rhetoric of donald trump and elise jordan. >> mika, also had candidate ron desantis say he actually doesn't -- he's not going to call trump a threat to democracy.

he thinks trump has even more constitutional powers while he was in office to do what he wants. that was heartwarming. >> i think she's being sarcastic. >> that does it this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. >> have a great day everyone. right now on "ana cabrera reports," breaking news out of the middle east. u.s. secretary of defense lloyd austin about to speak in israel. we are awaiting those remarks, and we'll bring them to you live. he's bringing a new warning for netanyahu as the u.s. pushes for israel to kale back this war. as we learn more about the death of three hostages killed by israeli forces. former president trump claims immigrants are poisoning the blood of america. a response from other candidates and voters. later, heavy rain,