can pose a risk to engines on passenger planes, something that happened when another volcano erupted in iceland back in 2010, creating an ash cloud that grounded air travel in europe for more than a week. monday's eruption follows weeks of intense seismic activity that spurred thousands of earthquakes, prompting the closure of the country's iconic blue lagoon. now officials are stressing vigilance and caution as the region waits on mother nature to run its course. >> thank you to molly hunter for that. that does it for me today, everybody. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪ hi, everybody. it is 4:00 in new york. i'll ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. it does not take a fancy degree and legal procedure or any fluency in legalese to understand what's at the core of today's developments because usa it is is a simple question.

should donald trump be treated like the rest of us or does his position as idol of the maga movement preclude him from something so silly as the law? you can guess the answer his lawyers are hoping for today, requesting a hearing in front of the full united states court of appeals in washington, d.c. specifically they are asking the court to narrow or throw out the gag order imposed on trump in the criminal case having to do with his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, and they would like a hold on the order while an appeal is considered. you will remember trial judge tanya chutkan first imposed the restriction on trump in october, holding him to the same standards as any other criminal defendant, that he shouldn't publicly attack witnesses, specific prosecutors or court staff members. two weeks ago a three-judge panel upheld that basic idea, although it narrowed the order's scope allowing trump a bit more

latitude, particularly to talk about the special prosecutor himself, jack smith. the judges found, quote, some aspects of mr. trump's public statements pose a significant and imminent threat to the fair and orderly adjudication of the ongoing criminal proceeding, end quote. while they agreed that there was a, quote, strong public interest in trump's public comments by virtue of his position, they said, quote, mr. trump is also an indicted criminal defendant and he must stand trial in a courtroom under the same procedures that govern all other criminal defendants. that is what the rule of law means, end quote. this afternoon we are also on stand by waiting for another significant development. the as-yet unreleased, unredacted version of the gag order ruling. now, among the insights, it is expected to provide new detail on the full scope of the danger created by trump's words and actions. once we get that in our hands you will know about it immediately. but first, the central question. will trump be treated like any

other criminal defendant in this country? it is in the hands of the u.s. court of appeals in dc for now. after all, if the full appeals court declines the request for a hearing or even if they grant it and then subsequently rule against trump, the very next stop is going to be the nine justices on the supreme court of the united states. that is where we start this hour, with the former assistant director of counterintelligence at the fbi, frank figliuzzi, plus national investigative reporter for "the washington post" carol leonnig and co-host of "the sisters in law" broadcast, joyce vance. thank you for being with us. joyce, let me start with you because one could get the impression that these matters that we follow every afternoon in great detail are somewhat procedural in nature. to some degree that's true, but you have written it is actually substantially more important than that. the things that both jack smith and the trump team are looking

for will have deep and lasting influence on how these trials are conducted and what the outcomes could be. >> yeah, and that's absolutely right because what we're seeing now are the beginnings of shaping, for instance, the evidence that will be admitted at trial. but, of course, how those cases will look when they go to trial and what sort of behavior the former president will be able to exhibit towards prosecutors and witnesses. so none of these decisions are being made by courts or by the parties in a vacuum. all of this is looking ahead in the dc case to that march trial date, trying to determine whether it will hold and how that trial will proceed when we get to it. >> frank figliuzzi, the things that happen when trump talks, there is absolutely -- i think it is hard for those of us who are not lawyers to understand that there's a public interest in hearing what trump has to say. we've used that argument after

his rally this weekend, that he says some very, very unsavory things, particularly about immigrants, they're racist and some of them invoke hitler, but it is actually important for society to hear them. there's also a danger in what trump says. i want to quote from the decision of the three-judge panel for the u.s. courtf appeals. this is the december 8 ruling that we're waiting for the undacted version of. they talk about the threat of trump's words. it reads, before and after the district court's warning mr.rump repeatedly used his public platform to denigrate and attack those involved in the criminal case against him. the day after his initial court appearance, mr. trump posted on his social media account, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. the day after mr. trump's, if you go after me, i'm coming after you post, one of the supporters called the district court judge's chambers and said, hey, you stupid slave -- word -- if trump doesn't get elected in 2024 we are coming to kill you,

so tread lightly, b word, you will be targeted personally, publicly, your family, all of it. you know from your work at the fbi that influential people who say things can have real effects. >> indeed. now, the documentation is there. the data is there. no one can with a straight face any longer claim that there's no way for trump to predict how people are going to behave based on his rhetoric. we have case after case after case, many of them violent, some of them fatal, all stemming from his rhetoric and the rhetoric of those around him. so how is that going to play out in these court proceedings? first, i expect that when we get this -- the gag order or the government's response to the gag order or application for it and it is unredacted, we are probably going to see more cases than we even know about, ali. we will probably see cases involving the fbi and other agencies where people have acted out or threatened courthouse

personnel or staff or prosecutors or the judge. so stand by for that. and then also this whole concept of what lawyers claim or call prior restraint, the idea someone is going to tell you what you can or can't say before you say it, courts take this very seriously, restraining someone's speech, and certainly if someone is running for president and is leading his party as a presidential candidate, they're going to take it very carefully. but i think they're walking a nice line here already. they're saying, look, we're going to say that you don't have to make an imminent threat. you don't have to say that at 2:00 p.m. this afternoon i think everyone should go to jack smith's house and hurt him. we're not going to wait for that to happen anymore. we are going to say that you can't do this because we think it is going to lead to this. so i think they're allowing him to speak. he's free to attack doj, the biden administration. he can talk about the prosecutor

and call him whatever he calls jack smith these days, deranged, he can do that, but you can't mess and threaten with the judicial process, the court process, the rule of law. i think they're doing a fine job with that, and i think that's what we're going to hear the entire appellate court say about this. >> carol, many of these things have to do with delaying the trial, because while most people charged with something would like to take advantage of their constitutional protections to have a speedy trial, donald trump has a unique interest in none of these trials be speedy, which is why jack smith has gone right to the supreme court in the case of the immunity question to say, please, this is going to end up with you guys so please deal with it anyway. but when donald trump talks about the things that his lawyers want him to be able to do with these gag orders, whether it is in the federal case or whether it is in the new york civil case, it seems like something else is happening. it seems like donald trump is saying, notwithstanding the jeopardy i face in the legal system, i have an entirely different audience out there that's going to come out and

support me and believe that this is all fake prosecution and a witch hunt. >> i'm so glad you brought this up, ali, because usually the default position with donald trump, whether as a president, a presidential candor a businessman, the default belief is that every time he appeals something, no matter how flimsy or thin the legal argument that he presents or his lawyers present, the goal is presumed to be delay, delay, delay, delay. let's see if people get tired. let's see if people give up. let's see in the case of the immunity case -- forgive me, the immunity pleadings if basically this trial doesn't happen until the election, after the election when presumably donald trump thinks he is going to win and, therefore, this will be kind of a get-out-of-jail card if he were threatened with conviction and ultimately sentencing. however, you are so right to bring up the issue of the gag order because there is something

else going on here. according to our reporting and according to conversations with sources, donald trump is really feeling his oats about how he's able to communicate to his supporters, that he's persecuted, that bad people, people he will mis"describe as having evil, nefarious motives rather than being public servants working in the criminal justice system, that these folks need to be called out as his enemies, his archenemies, and the people who are trying to block the voters from getting what they want, which is a second term of donald trump in the oval office. that persecution narrative is essential to donald trump's poll numbers in many respects. people really respond when he says -- and this has been proven repeatedly over the last, i would say, 12 months since he announced his candidacy, people really respond when he says, "they're trying to go after me

because they're trying to hurt you, my supporters." that really is a charm, if you will, for him in his quest for reelection. >> joyce, persecution is not a charge. he's not suing anybody for that, but these court hearings, these cases, these appeals, judge chutkan, the three-panel dc appeals court panel, everybody's very, very, very cautious with their words. everybody quotes the constitution. everybody knows that this is going to be under a microscope. does the argument that this nonlegal term, witch hunt, or these are nonlegal terms persecutions of me, do the justices, the judges have to think about that stuff? is that relevant in any way to their deliberations that this guy keeps on making the argument that there's a witch hunt and people are out to get him and he need his freedom of speech, he needs to be able to say whatever he is going to say because something else is going on?

is that at all legally relevant? >> you know, it surfaces in two ways. trump has actually filed a separate motion in front of judge chutkan arguing that the prosecution against him should be dismissed because he's the victim of selective or vindictive prosecution. that is what i think of as the witch hunt motion, and judge chutkan will rule on that. and if trump is convicted he will be able to appeal on those grounds directly after a conviction, if there is one. but where i think we are also seeing this surface is in the context of the immunity argument that's being made in the district of columbia, and perhaps the most precise statement about how judges view it actually came from chief judge in the 11th circuit, bill pryor, who wrote the opinion in mark meadows' removal case that was released yesterday. he draws a distinction in that opinion that we have seen judge

chutkan and others draw, and though it doesn't directly address witch hunt it tells us how judges react to these sorts of arguments. pryor says -- i'm paraphrasing, but in essence he says donald trump as president is entitled to a great deal of deference, but candidate trump isn't entitled, for instance, to presidential immunity and people who work with him like mark meadows don't get immunity when they're doing the work of a campaign. when it comes to a campaign donald trump is just like anyone else, and if he violates the law he gets held accountable for it. that i think is the court's low-key way of saying this is not a witch hunt. this is conduct that if anyone other than donald trump engaged in it, it would be fair game for prosecutors and it is fair game with trump, too. >> frank, this is something you study a great deal. there is effect when donald trump keeps on talking about this, and when you look at polls there's some speculation that if donald trump were actually convicted for any of these

things as it moves out of the abstract and into something real, there's a small percentage of people who are planning to support donald trump who may not do so. but generally speaking, donald trump could be a guy who faces conviction on a number of charges in which a number of his followers, possibly a majority of his followers, maybe an overwhelming majority of them, think that these are unfair prosecutions in one way or the other. how do you think about that because we do as a country need to think about that? >> it really makes the challenge of countering the threat of violence, the threat of domestic terrorism perhaps greater than we have seen in modern history because we have a candidate whose bread-and-butter approach is to attack institutions. i'm going to win the presidency, i already have, and how did i win that? because i'm not from washington. i don't buy into this deep state. i don't buy into all of these bureaucrats and career folks,

i'm going to break the mold. now, lo and behold, exhibit a, the very people i have been attacking and we don't trust anymore because i've told you not to trust them, they're going to put me in prison. and so if he gets held in contempt in jail, if he gets convicted it simply is going to put more wind in his sails and it is going to convince his hard-core followers that he was right, that the institutions are wrong and that we do need to break the mold. sadly, breaking the mold may be literally violence for some of those followers, and law enforcement's challenge is to get out ahead of this. it is almost impossible to do every single time. >> carol, worst case scenario is violence. best case scenario is the stuff he actually has said he is going to do, things like project 2025 and the reporting from "axios" about the people who could populate his cabinet, or the

article, the current issue of "the atlantic" which is about all of the things donald trump will do in a second term based on all of the things that donald trump has told us he will do in a second term. there's just no mystery to this. donald trump has said what frank has said. the mold needs to be broken, and he has shown us what the new mold looks like. >> yes, and it is interesting, ali, the two-headed element of this in my view. by the way i have to also credit one of the first stories that really broke this ground was by my colleagues at "the washington post" when they described how sources inside the trump campaign had told them of the plan to weaponize the department of justice to go after donald trump's enemies. >> yes, right. >> i just can't not mention that right off the bat. >> yeah. >> forgive me. i would also say what is interesting is as that raft of stories have started to come out one by one, what donald trump plans and what his allies like

steven miller and kash patel plan for the enemies of donald trump, and as donald trump himself gave an interview, kind of a heady interview in which he said, you know, it would be okay for me to go after a political enemy who didn't swear loyalty to me because now, you know, in his view president biden has done that to me. that's not really how this all unfolded but that's how donald trump is characterizing it. however, with each of these pieces, the trump campaign is starting to realize that him appearing to be a dictator in the first day or first months of his service in the second term were he to win, that that is not the best look. they've started to backpedal away from that. i don't think we can determine exactly what they will do, but i would just remind viewers we already know what donald trump did in 2020 with regard to interfering in the impartial,

objective, unpolitically motivated department of justice. he made sure through various tools that two of his most senior allies, michael flynn and roger stone, either their cases were dropped or their sentencing was weakened, though there were cases against them that were solid and true and factual. in fact, one in which michael flynn had pled guilty twice to lying to the fbi about his conversations with a russian ambassador. so we've already seen once, and the question is how much will you replicate that or a up what he's already done in the past. >> yeah, and it is important to note that while he only has stated that he like to be dictator for a day, there are lots of things he can do without being dictator at all. he can break a lot of norms and change a lot of things regardless of having dictatorial power.

carol, fantastic talking to you as always. thank you. joyce vance, you as well. thank you both for joining us. frank, i'm going to ask you to stick around for another block. the mystery of that white house binder with intelligence on russia that disappeared in the final days of the trump administration. it is another important reminder why the ex-president cannot be trusted with our secrets. plus, the governor of texas signing an extreme anti-immigrant bill into law. the new law is being challenged today, calling it a sweeping violation of the united states constitution. later in the show, a decision from the colorado supreme court on whether donald trump is eligible to be running for president in 2024 will be out later today. it is a case that could upend all of politics for next year, one that could tell us who is on the ballot in november. that story and much more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. don't go anywhere.

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in case anyone needed yet another reminder of donald trump's dangerous disregard for national security, new reporting last week about a binder containing highly classified information related to russian election interference that went missing in the waning days of the trump administration is causing intense anxiety in the intel community. the incident is a potent warning about the dangers of a second trump term according to our friend frank figliuzzi. he writens in a piece out this week, the case of the missing trump would likely do with what classified information if he's n access to secret material

again. he runs for the presidency for a third time, the report of the msing binder is a reminder that we must hold trump and his cohort accountable for jeopardizing america's secrets and treating classified data like it is their personal currency. eventually we will find some justice and maybe even the missing binder. not a week goes by when we aren't reminded of the risk posed by another trump term. we are back with frank figliuzzi. frank, here is the part that i don't understand, not being an intel person, that people, lots of people are involved in gathering intelligence in this country, and it sort of filters in theory depending on its importance up the channel, some to the president's inner circle and some to the president themselves. if people who are involved in the gathering and interpretation of that intelligence feel that it is something that the president could put at risk, what does that mean for us? >> it gets even worse, ali. you are right, and now let's

expand the universe of collectors and include our nato allies, the five i-countries that share everything with each other because the reporting from cnn on this is, indeed, that the binder, the documents assembled for the president at his insistence included allied intelligence. so imagine going to the five i-countries, our nato allies and saying, look, we appreciate what you are giving us but we don't know where it went, we're not sure where it is now. it is a problem. it is a problem in intelligence sharing and collecting, and certainly can constrain what the briefers are allowed to tell a president that they can no longer trust with classified information. so there's three takeaways that i see, and i detail them in my column from this binder incident, which is, number one, completely irresponsible, cavalier attitude at the trump white house about storing, handling and using highly

classified intelligence, even from our allies. of course, we all know this already from the mar-a-lago case, but now we are hearing this reporting about this particular use of information about how russia interfered or attempted to aid trump during the presidential election. number two, it is a reminder of the incredible delays in getting any kind of accountability or consequences for trump has already done. in the pending documents case at mar-a-lago, many legal experts say that it is at least four months behind where it should be and, quite frankly, there's no sign that judge cannon down in florida is going to move any faster than she has been moving. in fact, this notion that in march she's going to decide, you know, what to do with hearings and scheduling, the fact that she is holding that decision out till march is, in fact, yet another delay. and then, lastly, what the binder incident tells us is what you referenced before. what we can predict about what trump will do with classified if he is allowed to gain access to

it again, namely, he will use it not only irresponsibly but he will treat it as his own currency. >> right. >> he will use it for his own benefit. what was the binder thing all about? it was about trying to expose to the public that the russia case was all bologna, should never have been opened, and that people were out to get him and to attack the actual investigators. that's what he's going to do if he is allowed access again. >> that's the issue with mar-a-lago because it is the case in some cases that gets the least energy out of conversations with people because they're like, all right, what's this about? they moved boxes from one place to another, it is not in the right place. it is the concept of currency, right? it is the concept that if you are an intelligence gathering way up the food chain in this country or even low down the food chain or, as you said, an alliance partner, you now have to add another layer of your thinking. in the intelligence community it was also believed it doesn't matter the party that the president belongs to, there's a chain up with this information goes, and if you can't trust

that chain, if you feel like sending information that you have that is super secret, that is classified, that is top secret could be compromised by the president of the united states there's crucial intelligence that just may not get to the people who have to make decisions about it. that could result in all sorts of horrible things happening in the world including terrorism and wars. >> you know, there were accounts coming out on multiple outlets right after the trump administration that his briefers, that folks at the cia literally cringed at the idea of presenting anything related to russia or for that matter anything he didn't want to hear to him. they literally reported that they would pull stuff out of his briefings for fear of him yelling, screaming and dismissing the briefer. and then, you know, imagine you are the guy or gal on the street trying to recruit somebody to report to you so you can give it to team america, get it into the u.s. intelligence community, and

they look at you and say, i'm about to betray my country, can you guarantee this is not going to leak and get out? and you tell them, i don't know, i don't know if this gets to the white house if it is going to stay there, that's a problem. it is a national security challenge. >> frank, thanks for your article on this. it is important that we all understand the seriousness of it. frank figure lucy is a former assistant director of counterintelligence for the fbi. up next, the governor of texas has new expanded powers to stop, arrest and jail migrants, and the calls are growing today for the justice department to step in. we will tell you about that story next. hmmm... kind of needs to be more, squiggly? perfect! so now, do you have a driver's license? oh. what did you get us? [ chuckling ]

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with sb-4, the consequences of it are so extreme that the people being smuggled by the cartels, they will not want to be coming into the state of texas. >> once again, i appears that the cruelty is, in fact, the point. that was the texas governor, greg abbott, on the immigration bill that he signed into law yesterday. it would permit texas law enforcement to arrest anyone who enters from a foreign country without authorization. courts have ruled again and again that only the federal government can enforce immigration laws, but this appears to be more about abbott's continuing efforts to use asylum seers to score political points than an attempt to actually legislate anything. nbc news reporting abbott previously ordered the installation of a 1,000-foot

floating barrier near eagle pass, texas, and the placement of razor wire near the rio grande to stop migrants if entering the state from mexico. both efforts were rejected in court and it remains to be seen if the courts will allow this law to stand. one city in texas, el paso, sued to stop the law. yesterday congressional democrats sent a letter to doj asking them to intervene. i want to bring in democratic member of the texas house of representatives, victoria naeve creadio. representative, let me start with you on this law. what is the issue that you have weather and traffic and what would you like to see done instead? >> thank you so much for having me. the fact is that this bill is so extreme and unconstitutional, violating the preemption clause and many other components of our constitution, it essentially

allows police to question even american citizens about our citizenship. with respect to immigration law, that is something that falls within the purview of the federal government. what texas and republicans are trying to do is test the arizona versus united states case given the new makeup of the supreme court. we saw the supreme court overturn roe v. wade and now they're wanting to see the arizona case overturned. it is testing how far a state can go to enforce immigration law. it is extreme. it pits neighbor against neighbor, and it is going to result in mass incarceration and racial profiling all across our state. >> emma, i was going to ask that question about the arizona versus the united states because we've seen this kind of thing in arizona. what's the legal question at hand here? what is the important thing we need to be thinking about? >> well, you know, texas here is claiming that it has power to operate in not just one but two

areas that our constitution and the supreme court say are clearly the sole responsibility of the federal government, that is immigration enforcement and foreign affairs. in the u.s. supreme court in a decision named after arizona said very clearly that immigration enforcement cannot be handled by the states, it must be handled by the federal government. absolutely the representative is right that it is clear that governor abbott is going after arizona, but i think it is important to remember a couple of things. yes, there have been changes in the makeup of the supreme court but not in the text of our constitution. there are good reasons why these areas are left solely to the federal government, and that the arizona decision is not -- is not a one-off and it is not a stand-alone decision. it is built on many supreme court cases, making it clear that these areas are solely the responsibility of the federal government. again, not just immigration but

foreign affairs which are directly implemented by immigration law. i think they are really illustrated in this particular statute. >> representative, one of the difficulties with this conversation is because there's been a conflation of our immigration needs, requirements and policies in the united states with sort of a donald trump-fuelled conversation about the southern border. as a texas state representative i think we can all acknowledge there are improvements that can be made on the border, but what do they look like in a way in which cruelty is not the point, in a way in which american citizens are not subject to potentially unlawful search and inquiry, in a way that doesn't seem to be pitting, as you said, neighbor after neighbor? what does success look to you because i think everybody in texas realizes some things have to change? >> right. and i chair the mexican-american legislative caulkes, we're the

largest and oldest latino caucus in the country, and our members have put forth numerous solutions to address the issues on the border from looking at transportation infrastructure, from looking at technology solutions that can be -- looking at funding that can be given to the humanitarian organizations that have significant needs on the border. there are other solutions. this goes far beyond -- we have already seen, for example, also pregnant moms being trapped in barbed wire, having a miscarriage. we have seen children being pushed in the river. these are not the types of policy a state should be able to implement. so that's why, you know, we have been fighting tooth and nail against these attacks by governor abbott. >> and, emma, may i ask, you said there are -- speaking the arizona case where it was adjudicated and you said it wasn't just arizona specific, it relied on law in which there are good reasons why immigration enforcement in america is the domain of the federal government. without this being a ph.d. law

class, can you help us understand what some of those basic underpinnings of those good reasons are? >> sure. i'm going to begin with the foreign affairs angle here because one of the things that is remarkable about this law in addition to the fact all of the harm that is representative just outlined is that it mandates the texas magistrate judges order everyone convicted of this law deported, order that they leave the united states. but mexico, just like the united states, gets to decide who comes into its country. mexico has already voiced its opposition to the law, already expressed that they may challenge it. so what you have here is potential showdown between texas authorities and mexican authorities at ports of entry. here we have governor abbott interfering with an important, complicated, international relationship, right. mexico negotiates with our federal government, not individual states, and this sort of law abbott is looking to blow

up that essential -- that central relationship. then on the immigration angle, right, there are aspects of this law that ask now texas authorities, texas rangers, police officers to make complicated immigration determinations, right, whether someone is lawfully present -- that's part of the statute -- is a complicated question. whether or not someone is a citizen is a complicated question. someone might be born abroad and have automatically gotten citizenship through their parents, you know. even the federal government occasionally wrongfully deports u.s. citizens. so, you know, it is frightening to think about what a local texas police officer might be able to do. these are issues for which the government is trained and is really the only institution suited to handle. >> i have to say i was very worried as a nonlawyer that i would not understand that, and you made that very, very clear.

so i appreciate the very clean explanation on that one. thanks to both of you. this is an important issue. we will be following it very closely in combination with the conversations that are going on in the united states congress about immigration changes that are coming. the texas state representative, victoria naeve criado and emma winger, we appreciate you both spending time with us. we have looked at the future of the republican movement. consensus was reached on everything being an inside job to why feminism has no place in this country, that conversation is just ahead. is just ahead. (caroler) ♪ very much so. just trade in that old phone. ♪ ♪ for a free 5g phone, plus netflix and max ♪ (wife) you really just should have done that. (caroler) ♪ this didn't land, she didn't like that. ♪ (husband) honey! i immediately get it! (avo) this holiday turn any samsung phone, in any condition, into a galaxy s23+ on us. and now add netflix and max to your plan for just $10 a month. save big this holiday. only on verizon. i'll be home

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hamas oppresses the people of gaza, uses civilians as human shields, and steals their basic supplies to use them in a war of terror. even when given the chance at peace, hamas broke the truce. our community needs to stand against hamas and stand with palestinians and israelis for basic human rights. focus on the truth.

feminism is one of the biggest anti-women movements on the entire planet and it is also one of the biggest lies. it is empowering women to be super independent and, you know, do these certain things when in reality we need to bring them back to the kitchen. let's be honest, they're happiest at the home. >> um, that's just a sampling of some of the patriotic ideas of young conservatives at the america fest conference put on by turning point usa in scottsdale, arizona, over the weekend. this is the group headed by this guy, charlie kirk, who has risen through the ranks of the gop. flashback to their early years, turning point usa was focused on colleges, speaking at campus

events, provoking progressives on campus and online, running a professor watch list that claimed to expose leftist educators and helping conservatives win student leadership positions. that was then. now the group has turned into a movement which has gained considerable influence in today's gop and has been emboldened to spew rhetoric in xenophobia and the big lie. there are no better to talk about this than the two who followed the rise. tim miller, political analyst, and i want to know the story about this weekend's event at arizona. vaughn hillier, here at the table. thanks for being here. you hung out at turning point usa and you did that and what did you learn? >> somebody has to go, ali.

>> i guess. >> a lot of the national media weren't there. this is the power center of the republican party. there was the woke tears water and a lot of silliness there, but the reality is that these grassroots activists that show up to this event and the types of politicians that go there like gaetz and ramaswamy, et cetera, they took out a speaker this year. they're about to nominate donald trump for the third straight time next year. that's not what the establishment republicans in dc want. it is not what fox wants. okay. it is what the folks at this event want. so, you know, i go there for the bulwark to cover, to hear what their messages are, to hear what they're arguing, to hear on is on the come up. you know, it is not too bad to spend a little bit of time in vaughn's home state in december if you have to go somewhere in december. >> that i agree with. vaughn made the point as you just made, tim, that as much as we can play their clips and listen to their stuff and sort of illustrate that they are

weird and out there, vaughn, you said they have -- they have considerable sway over the republican party in your state. arizona, a state that has a long and proud history of real conservatism and republicanism, is now being pulled -- i don't even if you want to call it to the right but it is being pulled somewhere by groups like turning point. >> i appreciate tim standing in for the weekend. one of the founding members of the house freedom caucus, i was talking with matt salmon earlier this year about turning point and he was like turning point and the arizona republican part today, they're tied at the hip. they're all but running the arizona republican party. they boosted kari lake, they boosted mark finch and those election deniers. >> some came really close to winning. >> they came close. it was not the margin of 17-point victory doug ducey had in 2018. >> right. >> they turned their attention to rusty bowers, the arizona house speaker who they were

upset with because he didn't overturn arizona's election results. they went and were successfully able to primary him in the state. what you see with this group is an investment of money into young people, folks like tim, they're a different breed of conservative operatives, right. the staffers that you find in so many campaigns today, especially in arizona, they come through the turning point pipeline. they are prodigies of charlie kirk, somebody who has suggested there's a war on white people, has called the democratic party the party of perverts. that is the guy that they look up to, and those are now the operatives of today's generation, those 20 year olds that are coming through the republican ranks to run campaigns today. >> tim, what did the conversation feel like to you? were you having reasoned conversations with people about stuff? did they know sort of who you are and what your belief system is or were you there -- did they believe you were a reporter covering their convention? >> some folks know me because i have a snapchat show teens watch because for some reason steve

bannon really loves msnbc so he likes to put our clips on the war room. some people knew me from that too or from twitter. i would hear from people. look, again, i think they're very extreme views but i was able to have reasoned conversation with people. i talked to a lot of the operatives, the strategists of tp usa as well as the people who run their campus operations. the main thing i learned is it is a different breed, as vaughn said, to put a finer point on that. the one question i always asked them was what are the main issues that animate you. if you have gone to a college republican event 20 years ago that would have been tax cuts, regulation cuts, abortion, strong military might have been the things you heard. what i hear time and again, immigration, strong again, no foreign wars, no foreign eng tanglements, we shouldn't be supporting ukraine and opposition to woke stuff on campus. gender identity, critical race theory, affirmative action, racial grievance issues.

those are their issues. i think to vaughn's point, it's important to understand because these are the people working for republican campaigns that are going to be powerful for politicians. and that's their issues. it's the national issue for immigration, america first, protectionism, and really white grievance. >> so being isolationist and being a conservative and being libertarian about wars and stuff like that, it's not weird. it's debatable stuff. a lot of our viewers may not share that view, but it's stuff you can debate between liberals and conservatives for decades. what about the weird stuff? what about that stuff that we just heard about women and their place being in the kitchen and the white supremacy, things that you talk about. what's the overlap in turning point between people who are young, eager conservatives and those who have massagistic

views. >> i don't think we can paint a big brush over everybody that is in that hall there this weekend or everybody that's working in republican politics today, but you see the way that this is packaged. it's shining lights. it's bright. they pay well. they welcome you in. it's a community. it's a religion of sorts. the patriotism that they convince folks that they are a part of, it's a movement. when you talk about these pieces here, you have the likes of prominent figures, presidential candidates, don jr., that are there. they see themselves as defiant and defenders of the democracy in their view today. who else was there? the qanon shammen was there. this is an odd group of humans, though one that is only growing in size. >> thank you to you both. nice to see you. thank you for doing that. you're right. folks have to cover these things. we appreciate you. a quick break for us.

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more than 3,000 people in a nearby fishing town from their homes after observing seismic activity. the lava flow is moving out of the way of up critical infrastructure including a power plant it is believed that the eruption is the not going to disrupt air travel across the north atlantic like the one that happened in 2010. scientists say they have no idea how long this eruption is going to last and warn that air pollution may reach the island's capital late tonight or tomorrow morning. we're going to keep a close eye on this for you. up next if us, we're wait ing for a decision out of the supreme court in colorado on donald trump's eligibility to run in 2024. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts right after this. e house" starts right after this

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do you see any one of these cases as being the one that gets to the supreme court? >> the professor and i have followed and monitored the various state and federal court proceedings. i'm satisfied that colorado is one of those states whose case when it eventually make it is to the supreme court of the united states would be what we lawyers call a perfect case for the supreme court to grant on and to decide the question. 12k3w4r hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. any moment now, we are expecting a ruling in that colorado supreme court case on whether

donald trump can be on the ballot. it's a highly anticipated ruling with a deadlines certifying candidates on the primary ballot in that state less than a month away. the ruling is going to kick off another chapter in this legal battle this last the district court judge rejected the argument made by a group of republican and independent voters that the 14th amendment disqualifies trump from being president because of his role in the january 6th insurrection. the judge argued that trump was not technically an officer of united states but remarkably the judge did conclude that trump engaged in insurrection by whipping up a mob to storm the capital. she wrote, such incendiary rhetoric issued by a speaker who embraced violence and infled the anger of supporters leading to the certifition was likely to incite eminent lawlessness and disorder. the group that filed the lawsuit seeking to strip trump from the ballot appealed to the supreme court and trump did as well.

he's seeking to reverse the ruling that he engaged in insurrection. the justices were skeptical of her finding the trump engaged in insurrection with one justice remarking, quote, i guess i'm expressing a concern about the definiion of insurrection that the district court adopted. it strikes me as somewhat or potentially over broad, end quote. no matter ha what the ruling is here today, as the judge said, right here on this program, this case remains likely to be appealed and to be the case that reaches the supreme court. that is where we start this hour with the president of the citizens for responsibility and ethics. he's here with me. with me at the table is lisa reuben and political reporter tara palmary. noah, this is very high stakes. we maybe an hour away from a ruling regardless of what

happens, something is going to end up at the supreme court, but where are we now and what are the consequences of the ruling we are expecting? >> yeah, so the colorado supreme court has said they will have a ruling after 6:00 eastern. we think that they took this case very seriously. the argument they expressed skepticism about every piece that i they looked a at. they really pushed both sides very hard. we think that the ruling that donald trump engaged in insurrection is going to be a lot of definite rans because that was made by the trial court after listening to a large number of witnesses pouring through thousands of pages of documents. the legal questions like whether the president is an officer of the united states, this colorado supreme court is going to be looking at a new new ruling that doesn't hold up ushd law.

this is a new issue in the context of a presidential candidate. it's an issue that most courts haven't dealt with in 150 years. this court had a hard job before it. we think they took it very seriously. we're expecting a serious opinion. >> by the way, regardless of what happens, is it your view this will end up at the supreme court? >> i think it's really going to depend on what this ruling looks like. i think if the colorado supreme court, as we hope they will, rules that donald trump is disqualified from the ballot, there's no question that that will be awe peeled up to the supreme court. if they don't, it's going to depend on whether they decide on state law or federal law and what the posture is. we'll have to read the decision. and make a determination as to whether to appeal. >> some chance they get come out with this earlier, don't go too far. let's talk about this. a lot of this hinges on another

piece of the constitution that most of us have never paid much attention to before. the 14th amendment section 3, there are a couple things in there that if you read it, you wouldn't know how much complexity would come out of the it. what is an officer? the oath that is sworn. can you please put president and vice president everything that we're clear, but that's the stuff that's up for interrogation. some of the like minded in this country, have come to the conclusion that the 14th amendment section 3 does disqualify donald trump from running for any office again, not just president. but the road to that conclusion is very slow through the courts. >> it is very slow through the courts. on the other hand, this case moved expeditiously through colorado. it was filed in september by his organization working with a

constellation of plaintiffs. we're now in december, and it has to be decided because colorado secretary of state has a certification deadline of january 5th for the colorado presidential primary. that means in order to qualify for the ballot, she has to know who should be included by january 5th. so actually that time period between september and now, that's a really fast journey through a state court system is. at the same time, to the extent this is going to be appealed to the supreme court, can we expect it to move on a similar fast track. i don't think any of us can count on that. >> and we at nbc spoke to every single secretary of state in the country. and they all said we're not going to be the final arbiters on this. i have to ask you. these questions about whether or not there was actually an insurrection. the question about whether or not donald trump swore an oath to the constitution or something

else. there are political implications to all of these things. there's a possibility that donald trump could be disqualified for running from president because of these things or at least in some states. how does this play in congress? does anybody pay attention to this stuff? >> i don't think it has much of an impact. it's crazy to think if he's not on the ballot, he can't wip the electoral college votes. if this is successful, you can expect a number of other states to do the same. but will he still have the support of the members in colorado and the senate? of course, he will. he owns the republican party. this doesn't really change anything. if anything, it furthers his argument that he's under siege. that "morning joe"'s justice department is coming after him, even though it was republicans and independents who picked up this lawsuit. the party is going to follow suit because they fear retribution. this is how it goes. >> and yet when you look at the january 6th indictment is and you look at the georgia indictment, in many cases, the

reason donald trump didn't succeed was because of republican officials in michigan, in arizona, in other places who said, hold on, my feelty and our feelty is to the constitution. and this becomes a very important part of this discussion as it relates to the oath and what donald trump actually said. a lot of republicans in this country who wanted donald trump to win, who maybe would like him to be president next time are very clear on oaths to the constitution versus loyalty to a president. >> that's absolutely right. the constitution sets out the rules for our democracy. and just like the constitution says that you can't be 23 and be elected president, similarly, it says that you can't swear an oath to support the constitution and then engage in insurrection against the constitution. those are the rules of our democracy. they are in there to protect our republic from those who attack

it. i think that for people who care about the constitution, that's going to carry a great deal of weight. it's the opposite of antidemocratic. it's there to protect the democracy. >> to the earlier point that the zx secretaries of state said, when they had said this can be done, this is this can be done. which would have um policed the secretaries of state. not a single one of them have said i have the authority to do this without it being adjudicated by the courts. >> i think without a court adjudication on the criminal conduct, the secretaries of state are particularly loathe to weigh in. >> they would have to say you're not on the ballot because you took part in an insurrection. that's right. and on top of that, the view that the judge and professor tribe have a that this is

self-executing and all that theeds to happen is the secretary of state stay itting you don't get to be on the ballot. that's not a universally held view. shortly after former president trump was impeached after president biden was inaugurated, there was an effort in the house to have implementing legislation on section 3. why? because there was some democrats in the house who felt that section 3 was not self-executing but required an act of congress to universally and uniformly remove a particular prn from the ballot. >> which by the way, ain't going to happen. even if this court finds donald trump was involved in an insurrection or finds that as such is he's not qualified to run, the idea that they could get an assist from congress on legislation to deal with that in this congress, not a possibility. >> even with only two vote advantage in the congress. i think some democrats would

probably be worried about going near this as well. secretaries of states are elected officials. it gets more political. you'll see a number of states try the same thing it's like the filibuster. you don't want to blow it up. >> it's like impeachment these days. everybody use it is for everything. so this becomes really, really important because it's never been done before. it's never been tried before. regardless of the outcome here, message should be pretty clear. if you have ever sworn an oath to the constitution in this country and you engage in something like insurrection, you can't hold office gep. it doesn't say you go to jail. it doesn't say if you never swore an oath to the constitution, you're suggest to it. i'm a naturalized citizen, so i did swear an oath to the constitution, so i suppose i would qualify as somebody who can't have an insurrection. how do we make sure this is clearer the next time around?

>> you're right that this is not a case of political gamesmanship. this is about somebody inciting an insurrection to try to keep themselves in power after losing an election. which is as serious as it comes. getting caught up will there be tit for tat on this misses the point of what a unique moment of threat to the democracy we're in. we think this case is going to be really important because it actually did include real process. it was not an arbitrary decision by anybody. and i think we're going to have to see what the court says before we think about whether there are additional steps that have to be done in the future because we think going through the courts is the iegt way to do it and we'll see if the courts degree. >> talk to me about -- i joked that before the last election, i probably couldn't have named one secretary of state in this

country. they are lovely people. and in most states, they run the elections. it's not a universal across all states. they are under a lot of pressure to do the right or wrong thing. they are elected. what is the clearst thing that can happen for their purposes of the of this or the subsequent examination of this? >> it's the clearest thing that can happen because no colorado state court even its highest court is going to make a determination here that would be binding on other states much less politically persuasive depending on what state we're talking about. i will say that there's one other interesting feature here, which is in order to save himself in all of these cases, and you know in addition to colorado, there's been a number of other places where people have tried to disqualify trump. in order to argue he's not a federal officer for 14th

amendment purposes, that meant that trump really couldn't argue with the the straight face that he is a federal officer for purposes of removal. that's why in fulton county, trump is going to be stuck in all likelihood in this same trial that fani willis will have. if there's one good thing to come out of this, it's that trump will not be alone in federal court or the entire case won't be moved to federal court, but if fani willis has her day in court, it will be televised and donald trump will be there. >> let me ask. are you surprised when the issue became whether or not there was an insurrection? because the case that was brought was that having been determined to have be involved in an insurrection, donald trump isn't qualified to run. are you concerned at all that we're litigating that now in colorado courts? >> i think that that's really important that that was

litigated in the courts because a decision that is based on a detailed examination of evidence or testimony from police officers, members of congress, other government officials and experts, it's going to carry a lot more weight than a decision that took that as a given. we think it's appropriate for a court ajud dating this to look at the facts and look at the law and to find that this is an insurrection and donald trump engaged in it. that's the right way to do it. and we hope that the colorado supreme court will agree with that. >> we will stay in close touch on this one as always. thank you. when we return, donald trump's extensive legal woes are coming up against the election. how they are going to dwoin the next year. plus republicans are meeting trump's shocking comment that

immigrants are poioning the blood of our country with either a litany of excuses or some shameful silence. ha that says about the staut heading into 2024. later in the program, where is alexy navalny. he's been missing for two weeks. we continue of a quick break. don't go anywhere. weeks. we continue of a quick break don't go anywhere. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief

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what does it look like when a party's likely pick is facing down 91 criminal counts, a civil fraud trial and a is second

trial filed by a woman he's already been found lienl of assaultly abusing? all while juggling a bid for the presidency? i want to look at just the next month of the four times indicted ex-president. for those who feel like your holiday calendars are jam packed, be happy it doesn't look like this. let's come over here and start with the federal indictment on election interference. the former president has fought this a at every turn. now he's appealing a ruling he cannot get rid of the charges simply because he was president at the time. special counsel jack smith took the remarkable step of going directly to the supreme court and asking them to rule directory on this question of presidential immunity. the court has given donald trump until tomorrow, december 20th, to explain why he a opposed this view. meanwhile, unless the supreme court does take the case, the same appeal is going through the d.c. circuit court as well, and on the 23rd, donald trump's pelt

lat brief is due to that court. one week later, we have another update in the other jack smith case. the classified documents where on the 2th of december, donald trump must disclose whether he will use the advice of counsel defense. that's on the 29th of december. the day after that, on the 30th, back in d.c., smith has his opposition to trump's immunity appeal due. are you tired yet? because we're not even in the new year. on january 2, donald trump's reply to the immunity decision is due to the d.c. circuit court. if we are still waiting to hear from the supreme court. that's january 2nd. january 5th, brings us to the new york civil fraud trial where post trial briefs are due from both the defense and the new york attorney general's office. that's january 5th, just days after that on 9th, we have oral

arguments before the d.c. circuit on amumty appeal. two days after that, we see closing arguments in the civil fraud trial in new york, which is already found trump and his business liable for fraud. we're going to find out how much he's got to pay. over in florida on january 12th, the counsel must disclose had which expert witnesses they plan on using at that trial. don't forget, we're now in a presidential election year by january. january 15th, look at what we have there. the first ballots in the 2024 election are going to be cast at next year's iowa caucuses. littest nbc poll shows donald trump with more than a 30-point lead over the second place candidate there. lastly, we have one more thing in january. one day after the iowa caucuses, the second case brought by e. jean carroll against the ex-president will go to trial. this time for defamation over comments that he made in 2019.

all of this is just over the next month. the question before the country now, how do we reckon with an ex-president indicted for an arare of alleged crimes who sees returning to the whouts as his way out of his legal troubles. listen to how a former trump ally now views the ex-president's legal view. i by the time we get to the general election will have been convicted in washington, d.c. it's become a certainty with the testimony. i want you all to picture in your mind the selection. you will be heading to the polls to vote. that's something that donald trump will not be able to do. he will be convicted of feloies before then and right to vote will be taken away. >> it doesn't matter what he says, how he's bragging and going on and on about hm not being afraid, he goes to bed every night thinking about the sound of that jail cell door closing behind him.

>> joining the table, host of the podcast mollys fast, lisa and tara are both back. let's pick up exactly where chris christie left off. when you talk to people who know donald trump, you talk to michael cohen, they say the same thing. he's actually worried about this, and that's why in the new york civil fraud trial, he was so worked up. he walked out at one point. he's getting into it with the judge. this stuff is closing in on him. it's starting to actually worry him. >> yeah, this is his family business, the business that he stole from his siblings. so he has really -- this is everything to hum. is and this is the legacy to his kids. and there's so much stuff about the kids taking over the business, it's named after him. he could be forced, he could no longer be able to do business in new york. he thinks of himself as sort of

a king of new york real estate. so i think it gets him both financially and also sort of in -- it's hard to imagine that the man has a soul, but in his self, in his very self, i think it's very hard for him. and you see that because he can't control himself. but again, he's always trying to do these cases in the court of public opinion. he thinks if he can get back into the white house, then nothing will happen to him. and to some extent, he could be right. >> he could be right about that. but his actual personal liberty is at stake. so while the creation myth of donald trump revolves around this civil trial, these other trials could actually affect his personal liberty. they are all going to be playing out. >> it could affect his personal liberty, but that is the reason he is likely running for president again. i want to be contrarian. i think the reason he's so worry

ed worked up about the fraud trial is it's the one thing he can't campaign his way out of. there is no exit strategy on civil liability, particularly for a former president. and so that cannot be undone by being restored to the white house. pausing a criminal case in georgia, dismissing the federals cases because of existing office of legal counsel at the department of justice policy that essentially says you can't prosecute a sit the president, that can all be accomplished. this new york civil fraud trial that has the potential of dismantling and lick quit dating his empire, there's nothing somebody can do about this case from 1600 pennsylvania avenue. >> i have seen all sorts of polls about this. that a whole lot of people seem unmoved by the whole thing. they are convinced by donald trump's argument that this is a witch hunt. those who will support him, it seems many people will. but some polling indicates if it he's actually convicted in some of these cases, we move from the

abstract into the practical and there's a small percentage of people who say, maybe i need to go somewhere else. what does that look like to you? does somewhere else look like nikki haley? does somewhere else look like joe biden? >> if there was going to be another nominee for the republican party, this would have to happen before their convention in july. i don't think there's going to be a con conviction before july. and that would be the moment when the party could get together and pick somebody else. there are no real laws or rules in these party conventions. but then again, if somebody else is selected as the nominee, he's going to stage a write-in campaign. he's going to try to destroy the other candidate and bring the whole party down with him. he will be desperate. he may have an ankle bracelet or may not be able to move, but he will incite rage against the

party, which is has always been an issue. that's about 30% of the republican party. they have let that fester and grow. the republican party is him. the people running the party right now, they are not looking to -- i they think he's electable. and right now, the polls show he is. so we'll see what happens. i think that these court cases, and i think everything really they turbo charge his narrative that he's a victim. he's going to stand out and campaign from outside the courthouse or at rallies. that's going to be it. >> he has said that he's been indicted more times than the great al capone. that's after talking about kim jong-un, the great xi jinping, the great vladimir putin, his language, his behavior in recent

days has gone even further than normally does for donald trump. what do you make of that? because we're not even in january yet and he's bringing out the hit quotes. >> that was something. the hitler quotes, as a jew, i never feel like that's a good sign. i would say i think that trump and these indictments could really depress turnout. his base will always have his back, but if you're a swing voter in pennsylvania and you're a socer mom, maybe you say i don't know about this guy. i think it's been hard to sort of hold your nose and vote for this guy for the tax cuts. i think that gets harder if he gets indicted. he's going to go down swinging and that's what we see with his aud autocrat talk. >> he's pulling out all the stuff. it's not january yet.

if you were to guess given the timeline of all of these cases, are any of these criminal cases going to be settled before the election, in your opinion? >> that's such a hard question. i feel like we're going to replay this again and again. >> i won't play it back. >> i think there likely could be one, not more than one. i couldn't tell you which one it is, but i will tell you the two candidates are obviously depending on what the supreme court decides to do in the next several days. and if it does nothing, how expeditiously the circuit rules. if there's a vacuum in the calendar left by the sloth of the judge in florida who is scheduled to hold the classified documents trial in may, fani willis gave an interview where she said i would be happy to fill that spot. and her lawyers have told them all we need is 30 days.

if we have 30 days notice, we can be ready to try this case. so look to fani willis to try to backtrack on that proposed april trial date, if there's some sort of vacuum in the caendar that can be filled. >> fani willis is like those ups planes rady to go when there's a slot available. and the judge canon is like me followeding laundry. it doesn't have to be done today or tomorrow. thank you all. a quick break. when we come back, republicans are tying themselves into knots. that immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country. e ping the blood of our country a mystery! jessie loves playing detective. but the real mystery was her irritated skin. so, we switched to tide pods free & gentle. it cleans better, and doesn't leave behind irritating residues. and it's gentle on her skin. tide free & gentle is epa safer choice certified.

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the problem obvious to viewers of this program and all of us earth one is that when you rally behind someone so clearly unhinged and dangerous, he will become emboldened to drop the act, to publicly spread and campaign on hate. we're talking about donald trump praising authoritarian leaders over the weekend. echoing hitler saying immigrants are poisoning the blood of america. we are all left with a choice. to speak out against the dangers of a second term with the dictator for a day ex-president or not. to no one's surprise, much of the republican party has remained silent about trump's comments and two republicans stand out for their particularly appalling and over the top performtive efforts to standby him apparently no matter what.

during an interview, the republican congresswoman insisted that trump's comments, clear as day for most of us, weren't actually about immigrants because he didn't specifically use the word immigrants. at least the number four house republican called for a reckoning last week and now she's biting her tongue refusing requests for comment. she insisted and posted this picture from her meeting with trump at mar-a-lago calling for patriots to unite behind him. joining us is ben rhodes, molly is back with us. we have this in. nbc news caught up with jd vance from ohio who say what is he was talking about when he said poisoning the blood of the country is true to anyone who looking at the statistics. it's about fentanyl overdoses.

it's clear that the blood of americans is being poisoned by a drug epidemic. i mean, one doesn't need to be alingist to know he wasn't talking about the drug epidemic. if you were talking about the drug epidemic, you could have just said that. that's not what he said. >> the thing that's happening here is trump is i saying who he is out loud and everybody knows that. and this isn't like a slip up here or he happened to echo hitler here or staal over here. we heard about the need to get rid of vermin. there's a huge body of commentary from donald trump that is touching the deepest chords of fascism, which is us vs. them, otherwising of people that are black and brown, of anybody that is not basically donald trump's idea of a the real american. basically someone who supports donald trump.

and so those republicans contorting themselves, i think by the time we get to the election, we are not doing that anymore. he's going to run a campaign on this message. that's what his movement is. we have to confront that over the course of the next 11 months. >> there was a remarkable thing that rachel did last night, where she talked about the normalization of this. two things. fascists around the world have used this because it works. and number two, if you do it enough and we don't talk about it, or our viewers who don't sometimes want to watch donald trump clips or see him on tv don't hear about it, we forget that this becomes liezed behavior. what do you do? we have to let people know. people say maybe they will vote for donald trump. he's telling you what he's going to do. >> i think history is our greatest teacher here. we know what happens when

someone runs as an autocrat. trump was able to win these non-voters by touching the fourth rail of republican politics, being an over racist. none of the winks and nods, just pure racism, which i think was sort of a throwback to george wallace. he did that and got his base excited. and he knows now that he can only rely on that base. and that he needs those very occasional voters to come out. so i think his rhetoric is getting even more white nationalist. this is not normal stuff. really in america, we haven't seen this kind of thing since the '50s. >> you spent a the lot of time thinking about issues around the world. so the one thing that's important to raeltz realize, this isn't uniquely donald

trump. nor is it unique around the world. it's being used in all sorts of countries. putin uses it about the ukrainians. how do you get away from it this? how do you campaign against it? most thinking democrats in this country don't want to get involved in this discussion. they don't want to talk about how immigrants not poioning the blood of the country pause we don't thinkst that's true. but what do you do when he put it is right out there and you've got to confront him? >> i think you have to engage -- you're right. this is a trend that is gleebl. tl an autocratic trend getting elected and trying to transfer democracies. and to put this into perspective, it's not like trump was a perfect guy. when he won in 2016, i was in the white house. when his transition team came in the next day, you say what's your plan. they had no plan.

they had no staff. they had no ideas. they didn't think they were going to win. they then fired those people and put a new team together. the point is they have a plan. they know who they are going to hire. they know how they are going to break things and weaponize the justice department to go after people. this is not necessarily all the issues that people care about, but the point that you have to make to people is if the democracy goes away, it becomes a corrupt oligarchy. you have to be able to connect the outcomes that people are going to feel in their lives to what happens when democracy goes away. because it just becomes a corrupt club. >> a lot of people in america are reognizing that the democracy point, but for those who are not, your democracy may not feel like it's in danger. there's something else in danger. thanks to both of you. stick around.

after the break, the question that democracy activists all over the world are asking? where is alex navalny. asking where is alex navalny. vo: illegal immigrants rush our border in record numbers. more get away than are detained. leaders of “sanctuary cities” spend billions on migrants - creating a magnet for more illegal immigration and fueling the crisis. all while americans struggle to pay for food and housing. and what is the biden administration doing? closing more immigration detention facilities. tell your member of congress: biden's closing of immigration facilities makes this crisis even worse. right now across the u.s., people are trying to ban books from public schools and public libraries. yes, libraries. we all have a first amendment right to read and learn different viewpoints. that's why every book belongs on the shelf.

yet book banning in the u.s. is worse than i've ever seen. it's people in power who want to control everything. well, i say no to censorship. and i say yes to freedom of speech and expression. if you do too, please join us in supporting the american civil liberties union today. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for your rights and mine. including the right to read all manner of books. so please call or go online to myaclu.org. for just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. you can become a guardian of liberty and help protect all the rights promised to us by the u.s. constitution. make no mistake, this move to ban books is a coordinated attack on students right to learn. this is a clear violation of free speech. that's why the aclu is working to fight

against censorship in all its forms. it is so important now more than ever. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty, for just $19 a month. use your credit card and you'll get this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're helping to protect the rights of all people. the aclu is in all 50 states, d.c. and puerto rico defending our first amendment right of free speech and all of your constitutional rights. because we the people, means all of us. so please, call or, go online to myaclu.org today.

there's one person who couldn't be with us here tonight. alexei navalny, the leader of the russian opposition, who remains in solitary confinement for when when he calls, i want to make sure we get his words exactly right, vladimir putin's

unjust war of aggression in ukraine. alexei, the world has not forgotten your message to us all. we must not be afraid to oppose dictators and authoritarianism wherever it rears its head. >> my husband is in prison just for defending democracy. alexei, i am dreaming of the day when you will be free and our country will be free. stay strong, my love. >> that was alexei navalny's wife and the film makers behind the documentary taking home and explaining why navalny is more than just a russian opposition leader. it's a democracy superhero standing up to putin and issuing a call to action to oppose authoritarianism wherever it rears its head. in 2017 he was attacked with a green dye with acid in it. in 2020 he survived an

assassination attempt, a poisoning and then at personal ri,e returned to russia knowing that he will likely be arrested and jailed on bogus charges. and he was. in august, russian courts sentenced navalny to an additional 19 years in prison in a colony on top of existing sentences of more than 11 years all in cases widely viewed as trumped up for political retribution. he's been in the hash issuest prison where prisoners are held in cells with the lights constantly on. they are barred from speak, no family visits, no letters. alexei navalny is miing. the timeline of when navalny went missing is fuzzy, but here's what we know. the last time his lurs heard from him was december 5th. on december 6th, one of his lawyers waited for seven hours outside the penal colony where he was being kept but w not allowed to see him. on december 7th he failed to appear by video link at a

scheduled court hearing in the days after his disappearance, his allies grew more alarmed as letters sent to him went undelivered. on december 11th, officials had in the prison colony that had been holding navalny told lawyers that he was no longer listed among its inmates, end quote. joining us now is the former united states ambassador to russia michael mcfall. ben is back with us as well. ambassador mcfall, let me ask you what you know about this. i know you keep in close touch with a number of people in russia. the answer from the prison was very unusual. he's no longer listed among the prisoners. they department say he's on his way somewhere else. there's some expectation they are sending him to a harsher prison colony, but what do you know about this? sglu don't think i know anymore than you do. i have talked to lots of people. his family doesn't know where he is. there's lots of theories. maybe he's sick in a hospital,

maybe he's been moved to a worse prison farther away from moscow to make contact with him even harder, but right now as of today, nobody knows for sure where he is. >> there's an interesting coincidence that his disappearance coincides with vladimir putin announcing that he's running for election again. if he were to win that election, he will then be president until 2030. >> putin has transformed this system in russia into essentially a one man, one rule system. not even like an ideological system, it's just about him and his power. the point with alexei navalny is this is what happens to anybody who opposes me. both to silence and potentially tragically does appear alexei navalny. but it's a message to snib who may think of doing anything, stepping out in the street to

protest, having material that is critical of vladimir putin in their home, this is a total police state. since the war in ukraine, that escalated significantly. there is no room for dissent, civil society. that's the message he wants to send. i remember talking to alexei navalny for the book that i wrote recently. mike actually put us in touch. and i remember him saying, i said aren't you afraid? he said you are afraid when you go in the prison cell and the door clings behind you, you know they can do anything to you. those words haunt me. the message of vladimir putin to every single russian is the same. i can do anything to you. >> he did it again, ambassador mcfaul. he did it to a man on with me one day in april in 2020 and with rachel the next day and then in jail the third day. he had just gotten back from london to moscow. he said i need to be with my people, you know, can't fight -- you can't fight putin without

doing that. and now he is in jail for a very long time as well. i don't understand it. vladimir putin, i mean, in theory there are trials, but a conviction rate in russia is, i don't know, 97% or something. if you are arrested and go to trial, you are going jail. he is just jailing everyone who could possibly provide opposition to him. >> tragically, that's true. the list is getting longer. lots of people we don't know. those people prominent people because they have been connected to us, we know. just the other day he just said he wants to arrest garry kasparov and the novelist. here is the paradox. on the one hand, putin wants you to believe and his supporters in the west, by the way, want you to believe he is very popular, he is a strong leader, everybody loves him. on the other hand, he is actually has to arrest anybody that says just the slightest critical thing of him.

and i think that suggests that maybe he is not as strong leader inside as we wants us to believe because why do you need to arrest navalny and all these men and chase people around the world if everybody at home loves you? maybe they don't all love him. >> you could win aban election. this is important because what, in addition to these guys who are arrested, these fighters for democracy who are in jail in russia, donald trump yet again invokes vladimir putin as a strong leader and someone likes him very much and someone who he knows how to deal with. so it's not even -- donald trump can't even be appalled about the fact that democratic leaders are jailed in russia and put away and disappeared. >> no. and it's interesting. the last conversation we had was about trump embracing this fascist rhetoric about vermin and immigrants poisoning the blood. that's putin style rhetoric. and we're not anywhere near on the spectrum of authoritarianism where russia is, but can look at

russia and see where these things go because putin has been a model for other leaders. like in hungary, for instance. a model how you crack down on sufl society, change the election laws, rewrite the constitution, take the wiring of democracy and undo it. wrapped up in this hateful nationalism. so if we what to know where the rhetoric donald trump is using goes, to alexei navalny disappeared in a penal colony. that's where autocracy goes always. >> you can't pick it light. mcmcfaul, ben just brought up orbin. another guy donald trump talked about this weekend in heroic terms, another person who runs a democratic country, hungary, becoming less democratic by the day ostensibly because of ties that he may have to vladimir putin's russia. it's all connected. all the folks that donald trump likes are doing these kinds of things. >> that's right. they are connected.

they are united. they have the similar ideologies. they are all the same. and i think it's well worth american studying what happened in hungary, russia. read ben's book. which is to say, when these folks came into power, russia's the case i know the best, he is not that threatening, he is not that bad, and you know what he did? he cut their taxes. he said, oh, i'm going to abgood conservative leader. and all of the elites said he is not that bad really. and over the course of decades he became worse and worse and worse and it was a slow boil and now almost all of those people -- i know all these people from the early 2000s who said he is not going to do this stuff. he did do this stuff. then he started invading other countries, killing hundreds of thousands of russians for nothing. i think that a should be a wake-up call for anybody that says mr. trump is not serious. we need to look at these other

leaders and what happened. it didn't happen overnight. it happened over years. and we should learn from these other cases. >> gentlemen, thank you for your insights. of i appreciate it. ambassador mcfaul and big ten rhodes. are a quick break. we'll be right back. e a quick b. we'll be right back.

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this is an issue that, yes, i do believe will be resolved. in november of next year, because i do know that the american people fight for freedom and belief in the women's trite to make decisions about her own body. understand every day until then there are women suffering in our country in horrible ways. and, look, let me tell you, there is going to be a split-screen on this, too, in november of 2024, to your point about the election. there is going to be -- of all the issues we discussed none of them are binary. this is. november '24, binary. on the one hand you are going to have the folks who are standing

such as president joe biden and me saying we trust women to be able to make a decision about what is in their best interest and women can trust us to protect their fundamental freedoms. on the other hand, you are going to have folks who want a national ban and have the gall to tell women who are even survivors of rape or incest that they don't have the right to make decisions about what happens to their body next. so, i think there is going to be a clear choice on this issue, and so many others next year in november. >> that message from kamala harris is one that the administration is going to be takes directly to voters. harris' first stop on a tour across the country fighting for abortion rights in wisconsin on january 22. what would have been the 51st anniversary of roe v. wade. more from the vice president on the last word with lawrence tonight at 10:00 p.m. thanks for spending time with