saturday the december the 23rd i'm ali velshi. the start of a crucial presidential election season is right around the corner. a few key constitutional questions remain unresolved, which could dramatically up and the 2024 race. with the iowa caucus is just 23 days away, some of those issues are finally reaching the supreme court purview, setting up the pivotal role of the nine justices will play in the months ahead. yesterday, the supreme court denied special counsel jack smith's request to fast-track an appeal regarding donald trump's claim of presidential immunity. some background here. trump's lawyers had argued that trump's role in questioning the results of the 2020 election was within the, quote, outer perimeter of his official presidential duties. that would provide him with immunity from federal criminal charges. ordinarily the appellate court would consider the matter since the trial judge, tanya chutkan, had ruled against donald trump on the manner. only after that with the question be put to the supreme

court. jack smith requested that the supreme court circumvent the normal appellate process to quickly decide the process -- and presidential immunity. it is an important question about the powers of the presidency that the courts have really considered before. it could determine whether the criminal election interference cases against trump in washington d.c. and in fulton county georgia can move forward on schedule, or at all. this decision from the supreme court does not mean that the case against trump is dead. far from. in the d.c. court of appeals has agreed to expedite this case. a hearing is already scheduled for january 9th. the supreme court could still weigh in on the matter at a later date. however, this decision does threaten to delay the march 4th start date for trump's federal election interference trial, since judge tanya chutkan was, as a matter of normal procedure, compelled to pause proceedings on her case until the appeal is resolved. however, simultaneously, and

even more urgent issue emerged this week that is certain to reach the supreme court in a matter of days. the colorado supreme court issued a groundbreaking ruling that trump, the undisputed front another for the republican nomination, is ineligible to appear on colorado's primary ballot because he didn't qualify to be president. it is the first core in the country that made the ruling against trump based on section three of the 14th amendment of the u.s. constitution. the disqualification clause which reads, quote, no person shall hold any office, civil or military, under the united states who having previously taken an oath as an officer of the united states to support the constitution of the united states, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof, and quote. a lower court had previously ruled the disqualification clause did not apply to the presidency because the president is not an officer of

the united states. one of the main points argued by trump's lawyers. the colorado supreme court struck that down writing, quote, president trump asked us to hold that section three disqualifies every other oath breaking insurrectionist, except the most powerful one. and then it barr's oath breakers from virtually every office, both state and federal, except the highest one in the land? both results are inconsistent with the plain language in history of section three. however, due to the extraordinary and unprecedented circumstances of this case, the judges noted that if trump appeals, which he is certain to do, the order has stayed until the u.s. supreme court resolve the issue. the u.s. can still have trump on the primary ballots, a state is supposed to begin printing the mountaineer a fifth ahead of its primary on super tuesday, march 5th. perhaps the most notable part of color alyssa's supreme court decision is it affirmed the lower court ruling that the

attack on the capitol on january 6th was, indeed, an insurrection, or rebellion. trump engaged in it. those are some of the key questions that the nine justices of the supreme court will have to confront when this case reaches him in the days ahead. this case could have consequences with similar lawsuits pending in similar states. i'm joined now by noah bookbinder, executive director of citizens with responsibility in ethics in washington. the organization that helped to file this lawsuit on behalf of the group of republicans, the non-affiliated voters in colorado. also with his former united states attorney barbara mcquade. in msnbc legal analyst and co-host of the amazing sisters in law podcast. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. noah you and i both spoke moments before the colorado supreme court issued its decision. you were actually quite confident it was going to weigh the way that it went. since then, what are you

thinking happens next? how does this move? how does it proceed now? i assume the trump team appeals this and then what? >> obviously we are in a little bit of uncharted territory right now. we don't quite know what's going to happen. donald trump's team has indicated that they are going to appeal. i think, we assume, that they will in fact do that. but they will do it soon. if that happens, if they do appeal to the u.s. supreme court, then there are a couple of ways it can go from there. the supreme court may decide that they don't think this issue is ready yet for them. they will see what other states do. if that happens, this ruling will stand. donald trump will be printed on the ballot in colorado. there certainly seems to be some likely heard the u.s. supreme court will take it up. if they do, we think it is really important that they move

very quickly. both in order to have a decision while that could affect who was on the ballot for colorado's primary, and to give some certainty around the country so other states know what to do, and americans know what to do with the law. we think it is clear. we think the supreme court was right. obviously it is really important for most people a new issue. clarity is, indeed, very important. >> barbara, the colorado supreme court is now the third core in the country to weigh in and rule that january six was, in fact, and insurrection. this is a key point in this case. according to new mexico, reaching the same conclusion last year as these two colorado courts have. how significant is that? there is now this growing record of legal opinions affirming that what happened on january 6th wasn't insurrection. the supreme court, ultimately,

i think, is going to have to, at some point or another, address that particular question. >> i think one of the things that was important about the litigation was there was a trial. there was an actual fact finding mission. there heard testimony from members of congress who were there, as well as experts, who reached that decision. i think it is very important for both history and for this case. there are those containing that donald trump has been denied due process in some way. i think they're conflating a finding of a criminal and finding of insurrection. it is a crime to engage in insurrection. you have due process threats like the right to confront york users. the right to testify. the right to cross examine witnesses. that is when liberty is at stake. this is a civil case. due process in this case is the kind of trial we saw with fact-finding. i think that is what makes this all. and when the supreme court reviews, it they do not have to

do their own fact-finding. they can rely on the fact finding that was done in colorado. >> this is a very interesting point. and when i would discuss it a little bit with you, noah. not only is donald trump celebrity not at stake, this isn't a penalty, this is meeting the needs of a qualification to run for president. it's the equivalent of saying, if you are this tall you can't go on the ride. >>. . ,, that's absolutely, right the constitution set so requirements for being president. you have to be 35 years old, he had to be a natural born citizen, you can't have already served two terms. like if barack obama decided he roll on into run for president the constitution dictates that he already served twice, he cannot run again. similarly, if you engaged in insurrection, then you are disqualified. obviously the fact finding is the more complicated than

someone's age or whether not they've already served a couple of terms. that is why, as barber went through, the court in colorado held this really exhaustive process where as actually donald trump's lawyers did have the chance to cross examine witnesses. donald trump put up his own witnesses. a good number of them. there was this extensive fact finding. it is really important that this is separate from a criminal proceeding. since the 1816, there have been eight cases in which a court has found someone not qualified under the 14th amendment. nonot any one of them were any f those people charged with or convicted of criminal insurrection. this is not a criminal penalty. this is a separate inquiry to see whether someone is qualified under the constitution. >> barbara, can we try to understand that little bit more

for us non lawyers? if it were a criminal -- if it affected his liberty, donald trump would be entitled to different things, as you said. certain due process, the ability to confront his accusers, whatever the case is. because this is a qualification discussion, there was actual fact finding. it was a 68-page decision. it was actually quite detailed. they went through the various ways in which they could consider what a rebellion was and how to determine donald trump's involvement. quite legally thorough actually. >> that is right and that is where the fact-finding occurs in the trial court. court to bury differential to the fact finding done in a trial court because the trial court is in the best position to witness the witnesses, observe their body language, make findings of credibility. the district court findings of engaging in insurrection, we saw the supreme court affirmed that finding. any additional review of this

by the u.s. supreme court will rely on those seam facts found below. as you say, this was not just a slapdash assumption that he engaged in insurrection. this was an analysis of the facts and analysis that occurred on an after january 6th. as noah said, this is all about whether or not someone is qualified to serve and be on the ballot. not whether someone is going to spend time in prison as a result of insurrection. as he said, we could not or like brooke obama to another term, nor could we elect taylor swift, who was only 34 years old. nor could be elect prince harry, is that anti-democratic? maybe. but that is what the constitution requires. >> i can't believe you went there with taylor swift. the backlash on that is gonna be wild. taylor swift cannot be elected president? that is gonna be earth shattering. hang on a second, i want to take a quick break, pay the, bills come back and talk more about this. including, barbara, stuff we

just learned about in michigan as it relates to the 2020 election. we will be right back. right back. esto is the #1 heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. heart failure can change the structure of your heart, so it may not work as well. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. and with a healthier heart, you can keep on doing what you love. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto for heart failure. back with me now, executive entrust you heart to entresto.

director for citizens for responsibility ethics in washington, but when a great former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst. i want to stay with his question about what an insurrection is and whether donald trump took part in one. noah, it is a talking point, certainly, for donald trump supporters that this is a witch hunt. it hasn't been proved, he has been tried. from the decision, the colorado decision, it says that although we acknowledge that these definitions vary, some are arguably broader than others, for purposes of deciding this case we need not adopt a single all-encompassing definition of the word insurrection. rather, it suffices for us to conclude that any definition of insurrection for purposes of section three would encompass a

concerted and public use of fourth or threat to force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the u.s. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country. that was their shore for saying, we are satisfied that this was an insurrection. >> that's right. that is really significant. one of the things that was important to us was that we not tried to go forward in this case and have the loosest possible definition of insurrection. we really wanted to not have to encompass everything that could possibly be an insurrection. we tried, in many ways, to do the opposite. to come up with a really exacting approached insurrection. it would not bring in all kinds of conduct that some people might be concerned about being labeled an insurrection. it was about setting a high bar. this is something that has happened very infrequently in

our country. it shouldn't ever happen. we don't want to capture a lot of conduct. we just want to capture the conduct that truly threatens this democracy. the court essentially says you can define it in different ways. no matter how you define it, while the strictest definitions, what happened after the 2020 election, particularly on january 6th 2021, clearly qualifies as an insurrection. it had an attempt to halt, not just government processes but government processes that were being dated in the constitution. about the peaceful transfer of power. it included violence. this was, by any way of looking at it, an insurrection. >> i've been wanting to talk to you since thursday, barbara. in addition everything that happened this week, the detroit news reported that donald trump and the rnc chair woman, rhonda mcdaniels, were recorded pressing to michigan canvas officials on the way in county

board of electors not to certify the 2020 election results. it is a wild story. we know much of it from the allegations we have seen in both jack smith and diamond and the georgia indictment. we now know that it was like the georgia phone call to brad raffensperger. they really told them, don't agree to this. don't worry, go home. we will get you lawyers. donald trump himself, i have not heard the tape, donald trump is reported to us said, we will take care that for you. your thoughts? >> at the very least this provides additional evidence for jack smith in the election interference case. it complements the evidence he is going to have with that recorder of brad raffensperger. prosecutors get to piece of evidence that basically due to things it tends to cross corroborate the other. rather than being able to to smith the call as a one-off, or out of context, now you have another one. it becomes part of the plot,

the conspiracy, the pressuring of the state officials. the other thing that is a possibility here is a stand-alone crime. if michigan prosecutors want to pursue it there is the possibility that this is a crime. a misdemeanor crime in the state of michigan for four ushering officials to violate their duties. that could be a crime here. there is the crime of bribery for offering a thing of value, the hiring of a lawyer, for the exchange of an official act not signed in these documents. there's also the official crime signing affidavits that said they reason they initially voted in favor was they were pressured to do so. so that is submission of false documents. great pressure here for pushing ron and mcdaniel. and using it as leverage to encourage their testimony in the larger case. >> i appreciate this. i don't want to hear, as i said, from you on this for a few days. that gives me a little more clarity. thank you to both of. you fantastic to have you. we are posting this conversation. we are gonna headed out the

part where barbara said taylor swift can't be president. noah bookbinder is president of the responsibility of -- at the top of the next hour, i will be speaking to judge michael luttig, who along with the constitutional scholar, lawrence tribe, was one of the first to popularize and promote the idea that section three of the 14th amendment disqualifies donald trump from being on the ballot. still ahead, the death toll in gaza has now surpassed 20,000 according to the got the health ministry. nbc news cannot verify those numbers. you know what? we can virtually never verify death counts in a war. we do have reason to believe those numbers are pretty accurate. we will explain why, in great yield, after the break. and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. honey... honey... nyquil severe honey. powerful cold and flu relief with a dreamy honey taste.

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according to the palestinian ministry of health in gaza, and according to israel's prime minister's office, 1200 people have died in israel since october 7th, with most of the casualties happening on that first day. israel says about 470 soldiers have been killed since october 7th. hamas took about 250 people hostage on that day, around 129 remain in gaza. israel says 22 hostages have been killed with hamas holding their bodies. the israeli military said it accidentally killed three israeli hostages last week. it is a challenge in any mass casualty situation, whether be a war, natural disaster, or mass shooting, to accurately count the number of people killed. when you factor inconsistent bombing, ground fighting, crumbling infrastructure, depleted resources, hospitals caught in the crossfire, to governing factions that are not 100% forthcoming with information, that challenge is

amplified. that is what we are seeing in gaza and israel right now. as a news organization there are certain mechanisms we used to verify death tolls. there is a formula behind how we decide what information is reportable. i want to walk you through some of that process. this is an active war. neither nbc staff nor consort him of journalist can physically be on the ground counting and identifying bodies. like any of conflict, including in ukraine, we rely on information provided by government. which means in this case relying on information provided by the hamas-run gaza health ministry, and by the israeli defense forces. let's start with the figures coming out of gaza. the nbc news standards and practices team considers to gaza's health ministry figures on death to be reliable for a few reasons. the united nations world health organization and other trusted human international rights groups rely on the numbers. these groups have said they have no reason not to believe the health ministries figures. these organizations have found

that gazis numbers have been accurate in past conflicts. historically past conflicts stack up to the figures released by the gaza health ministry after the last two major conflicts in 2009 and 2014, you can see the numbers provided by the idf are actually very similar to those provided to the gaza health ministry. they are not exactly the same but they tend to be quite similar. additionally, the gaza health administration counts have largely been consistent with the u.n.'s personal tallies in those prior conflicts. whatever we think of hamas, history suggests that they do not exaggerate the number of casualties that result from their conflicts from israel. our standards team also considers the scale of the destruction. based on the footage of the destruction in gaza it is clear that the death toll would need to be on par with what the gaza health ministry has reported. let's talk about how the health ministry counts the casualties. according to the bbc, the gaza health ministry says the

figures are recorded by medical professionals at hospitals. this is a very important point. health care workers say that once a body was discovered, the body needs to be taken to a hospital in order to be recorded. so, if there are bodies trapped under the rubble, which there certainly are, or someone died at the scene of a blast and buried shortly thereafter, which is relatively common practice in both the muslim and jewish worlds, both face prefer the bodies are buried before night passes, those people are not accounted for in the gaza health ministries casualty figures. this means the death toll, which has now surpassed 20,000 in gaza, it is almost certainly higher, not lower, than that. according to the world health organization, only nine out of gaza's 36 health facilities are operation at the moment. which means the process of counting the dead has been compromised even further. the limited health facilities available are being dedicated exclusively to saving the living. the gaza health ministry does not provide the cause of death

but described the dead as victims of, quote, israeli aggression. it's figures do not distinguish between military and civilian deaths. gaza's casualty count has been publicly scrutinized by israel. israeli officials say many people killed by the idf were, in fact, hamas combatants. are the start of this month senior daily officials suggested that israel had killed two palestinian civilians for everyone hamas fighter. nbc news cannot verify the ratio of civilian combatants killed in gaza. though that ratio is at the high-end of what has been published. however, an idf spokesperson reiterated that if you go to cnn. saying that it was, quote, a tremendously positive ratio. taking the idf at its word, with two civilians killed for everyone hamas fighter, using the total of 20,000 dead, that means that more than 13,000 dead civilians, ten times the

number of civilians killed in israel on october 7th. when it comes to the death toll in israel, israeli officials recently revised to their own figures down by about 200. the idf had originally reported 1400 israeli deaths from the hamas attacks on october 7th. if you will now says that number is down to 1200. they have offered no clear reason for the downward revision. a spokesperson saying the original number was, quote, a original projection. the numbers may continue to fluctuate as remains continue to be identified. nbc news is continuing to ask idf for clarification about the number of people considered missing but not yet been confirmed as those taken hostage or among the dead. in mid october they declined to answer that question. the bbc also recently asked netanyahu's office however courts the number of israelis killed on october 7th. again, his office declined

answer that question. we, as a news organization, try our best to bring you the most accurate information we can. it's true that we cannot verify the exact numbers ourselves. that is simply a reflection of the brutality of war. we try to be as transparent as we can. we hope that this explanation helps. the point is this, we believe from israeli officials at 1200 people were killed in israel on october 7th. we believe that about 20,000 people, and counting, have been killed in gaza since then. well what happened? well, when you opened up the chewy box, you went a bit... ...bonkers. that's one word for it. i guess i blacked out.

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bombardment of the gaza strip, new aid for civilians should soon be underway. after saturday's of delays, on friday the united nations security council approved a resolution calling for an increase in aid for the people of gaza. the situation in gaza's death right now. the entire strip is facing food insecurity and survey shun. the world food programme

reports that 90% of the population is eating less than one meal a day. coing to the gaza health ministry, as we justdiscussed, 20,000 people have been killed there since october 7th. 70% of those are said to be women and children. however, the final human resolution left of the provision calling for an urgent suspension of hostilities. which has prompted criticism from the international community which overwhelmingly does support a cease-fire. the final vote was 13 to 0 with the u.s. and russia abstaining. following the vote, u.n. chief antonio gutierrez stress the need for a cease-fire first aid to be distributed effectively. he stressed the argument that while israel is conducting this offensive, it is creating massive octave olds for the spreading of agents that are. gaza -- hamas stresses there will be no more hostage negotiations unless israel holds its military campaign inside gaza.

>> -- 240 palestinian prisoners, currently about 130 people remain held by hamas in gaza. separately, the press does not have the freedom to move around in gaza. in fact, the committee to protect journalist says that border reporters have been killed in the first ten weeks of the israel gaza war than have ever been killed in a single country in an entire year. in order to get the full scope of what is happening on the ground in the occupied palestinian territories, including gaza, we must rely on groups who are underground documenting it all. one of those groups is that cell of, a prominent israeli human rights organization. the group called for an immediate cease-fire, accusing both hamas and israel of human rights violations. in a letter, the organization said, quote, it is israel's obligation to protect its citizens from hamas, which continues to launch rockets into israel and promises more attacks to follow october 7th. however, the right to self

defense does not confer the right to employ unlimited indiscriminate violence. the international community must step in to protect the civilians on both sides, and quote. been solemn has been documenting abuses by israeli soldiers and settlers for almost three decades, shedding light on the harsh realities of israel's military occupation. been salem, it means in his image and hebrew in 1989 by a day vacated group of israeli lawyers doctors academics and book of genesis in the bible which states and godde man in his image we organization was named by one of its founders to late, yoshi sata. member of israelis parliament. you can see him here shaking hands with yasser arafat, the first president of the palestinian authority. it reflects the universal and jewish moral imperative to uphold human rights of all individuals. b'tselem's work has been

crucial, being a source of information for local and international press, exposing what life is life under military occupation. for more on this i'm joined by the organization's international advocacy league, sorry my kylie. i first met siri in 2019. she drove me to gaza while ours enough time and for nbc news, reporting on what life is like in the blockaded strip. it is good to see you again, yet under these terrible circumstances. thank you for being with us. >> thank you, ali. it is a privilege to be with you. >> your organization is calling for a bilateral cease-fire. israel argues that a cease-fire is going to allow hamas to regroup. hamas has threatened it will do more october sevens. how do you see this unfolding? obviously, b'tselem is a group that wants peace. you are not looking for more carnage and more killing. what is your sense and your organization sense of how this could unfold? >> the sense, currently, is that any continuation of what we are seeing right now on the

ground, which is a combination of an intense campaign of israeli bombing, of civilian areas of gaza, including areas that are highly packed with more and more civilians, together with the humanitarian catastrophe that is not even unfolding. we are seeing. it's not something to be expected, it is something that is on the ground right now. you described it yourself. it can only lead to more and more human rights violations. and to more damage. possibly irreversible damage and really making the gaza strip uninhabitable. for a very, very, long time to come. this is simply unacceptable. israel and hamas both have shown flagrant disregard for the rules of international humanitarian law, the rules of war. they have both conducted these hostilities while violating iah al and perpetrating war crimes.

what can be definitely described as war crimes. it is, therefore, simply impossible to say that we can continue in any way with this conflict in a way that isn't what we are seeing right now. there is no other conflict other than what israel and hamas are doing to each other right now. therefore, they must -- international intervention in order to stop. this i think the failure of the international community even or reach and agreed decision on a cease-fire reflects one of the biggest problems. certainly, the purview of the united states to change -- the way is rio, international civil society has had to be so strong and come out with its call. it is not a usual thing for us. >> that is not a usual thing. we've been following this rover aware. we have a role to play in this

far-right government. on the international stage there has been a growing rift between the united states and israel after joe biden came out and really strongly supported israel's right to support itself on october 7th. i have been talking to aaron david miller a little later on in the show. his point is that if the u.s. wants israel to prosecute this war differently, it actually has real leverage. it is not just a matter of him or the biden administration, antony blinken or lloyd austin saying so. i want to read something that you commented on. and israel will not shift its mitary strategy and tactics as long as the president of the united states in congress refuses to use the many practical tools that the united states has to demand this. tell me what you mean by this? >> absolutely. i think it has become very clear that when international leaders, certainly president biden but also other leaders from the european union and other allies of israel, have been --

as we discussed, airlift to israel following the her figure. tax the horrific events of october 7th. calling on israel to conduct these hostilities in a way that minimizes civilian casualties. there have been many statements by the leaders of the united states, and other countries, calling on israel to take mall measures. treating it as if it was some kind of hypothetical discussion. in actual fact what we see is this will not change any of this. israel has been conducting very similar military trade operations since the -- beginning of this campaign. there is a certain moment where friends and allies of israel, certainly the united states, they need to understand that this is not going to fundamentally change. in fact, what we are seeing is a aggression as the people in the population of gaza, 3.8

million people, as i, said it is basically just shoved into a smaller and smaller parameter. bombed, starved, lacking water. lacking electricity. almost any contact with the international community, with the outside world. the passage of time is not helping. us there is a certain moment the united states needs to begin to use actual leverage. there are so many parts of the bilateral relationship, certainly, there has been a discussion -- of conditioning aid. of demanding israel changes these policies. we have not seen significant action on behalf [inaudible] where i have seen some change is at the beginning of the discussion on israeli settler violence. the united states has raised various possibilities of individual sanctions against violent settlers. other than that, when it comes

to the leaders, the military and political leaders, there is just diplomacy, just these requests. clearly, this is not happening. this is not working! >> thank you for joining us for that. you are right, the topic of settler violence in the west bank is yet another one we will have to have. i think you and i will have to have that on another occasion we have a few more minutes. thank you for joining us. we appreciate it. the international advocacy lead for b'tselem joining us from israel. up next, i'll bring you one of my favorite velshi banned book club features of the year how the garcia girls lost their accent by julia alvarez, don't go anywhere. go anywhere. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid before it begins. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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books this year on the velshi banned book club. i want to go into the holidays by revisiting when my favorites of the year. how the garcia girls last their accents by julia alvarez. there's a family that lives right here in new york city. two parents, four daughters. the father is a doctor in the first they lived in the dominican republic surrounded by aunts, uncles, and cousins in a community with, tall safe walls. variable to trace their lynyrd lineage back to the country stores of spain, and then after their father joins a failed attempt to oust the dominican dictator raphael travilah, they must escape to the united states. unlike their community in the dominican republic, in new york, the four daughters only had each other. they faced police who taught them about their identity with roads they don't even understand.

soon though, they assimilate, the grasp american independents both for better and for worst, and they remain between dominican and american and trying to figure out how a fractured identity can become hole. what i just described is many immigrants who came to the city, and this particular plot is fiction, and this object about how they lost their axons by julia alvarez. the book is written in reverse chronological order from 1989 backward to 1956. it is composed of 15 interconnected toward stories. here, alvarez has created no true linear plot. masterfully memory the garcia girls own instability and permanence throughout the book. each of the stories focuses on one of the four daughters or the garcia family as a whole, yolanda, the third god or, is ultimately the central focus and she is the pagonis. alvarez policy weaves together the fraught tensions between american teenager and her

parents with a complex tensions between the dominican american teenager entered a minute to parents. how the garcia girls last their accent explores themes of identity, assimilation, family, and memory memory. it is an immigrant story. it also has to deal with both women's sexual awakening and sexual assault with a gentle nuance and frank realism,two themes that have led to numerous calls for the books removal senses publication in the early 1990s. right after a quick break, i will bring you my fantastic conversation with the book's author, julie alvarez, don't go anywhere. anywhere

okay, without further ado, this is my conversation with the author julie alvarez about how the garcia grows last accent. i began the conversation by asking her about the beginning of her book when one of the congress -- characters approach by two men and she begins to speak english, immediately telling her that she's american.

>> i was thinking about the ways in which sheeran immigrant, you are this hybrid person, and your american-ness in your usa american-ness, because we're all americans in this atmosphere, gives you a certain amount of protection and other countries or so yolanda thinks. so when she is terrified of being a woman, being alone, because that is another theme in the book, its immigration and life in a female body, she runs to that defense. she figures that if she pretends that she doesn't speak spanish and she's only her american self, she will be safe. it shows the nuance and what it means to be an immigrant. there is not a clear cut line, there is not a right way in a wrong way. it is a constant fluctuating and complex situation that you

find yourself. >> it's not even complex between different people between different people and family. it's complex within one individual on an ongoing basis. something you capture well in the book. i came away from it thinking about this concept of being sheltered. the garcia girls are literally sheltered in the dominican republic by the walls of the compound by which they live. the amanda family but they live surrounding them. the confines of the island, in the new york city, that all goes away. let's talk about the dichotomy between their upbringing in the making more public and their life. >> they come to united states, is the night states of the 60s. civil rights movement is getting started, and they had first want to go back -- you up in the cage in the whole bird has stayed there so long that it does know what to do. it doesn't want to come out. but once they feel this freedom to explore that complexity that we've been talking about, they

just lie, and this is a situation often with first generation, second generation immigrant families, that the parents are still part of the old world. there is a way in which they don't assimilate, and yet the new generations become part of the culture, and that causes all kinds of divisions in the family and within the garcia girls, because they feel both poles. and so one of the capture -- the american dream, everything goes fine, because that is not true, you know? reading these books, immigrant kids -- kids that have been here all their lives, to understand that complexity is important so they understand that there is not a right and wrong way to be and that it is a process. >> it's a process, it's complex and once you work it all out, it evolved into whatever your identity is, and ultimately,

how the garcia girls that their accent is a story about identity. this is illustrating the many nicknames that she goes by. -- and when she says, quote i would never find somebody who understand my particular mix of catholicism and agnosticism, hispanic and american styles, and quote, tell us about this. again, it's part and parcel of what you are trying to do, but yolanda and one character is multiple identities. nda and one character is multiple i think that's truel of us. we carry many selves around. if you say that this is a novel about identity then identity is not a done deal. here i am, and i'm reinventing myself as an elder. what is my identity, what is my work in the world. so it is an ongoing process. and you know what i do when i need help negotiating it? i go to books. i read novels with all of the

protectionist. i want to see films, i want to understand this landscape so that i can find my way through it, and this is why books are so important to us, and especially to our young people who are doing that in a way consciously for the first time as adolescents, finding themselves and trying to figure out who they are. >> this is amazing, because that is something that so many of our authors who members of the banned book club say to us, that there are people, the greatest reward for one of these authors is not making a bestsellers list, or the money that actually doesn't typically come from being an author, but it is the idea that someone wrote to them and said, i saw myself in your book or saw something about myself, or ice all the way articulating the struggle through which i am navigating in your book. that tends to be the thing most authors tell me is the most important and gratifying. >> it's interesting you say, that because i pull this out right after coming on just this

january, and they get a two-page type letter and i'm not going to say the name, because i don't have their permission, but from a student and she is in middle school and she read garcia girls and she said basically that my family has shared a lot of the issues with the garcia family including struggle with domestic violence. the way that you wrote spark memories that i haven't thought about a long time. it felt too familiar, my heart pounding, my throat catching anxiety or maybe quiet it. as i read and we read it, i was painfully reminded of the long conversations with my mom after conflicts when my father. however, i came to the realization that the reason -- and the book acted the way they did was out of insecurity. and this is a 13 14 year old girl, you know, and you can go to therapy for a lifetime to get this kind of reading at

home, you know? and i'm sure she's read other books in which there were conflicts with the father but because she was latina and she saw it play out, she made a leap, and it lit up her world. she understood, and that, i don't want to sound like i don't appreciate all kinds of readers and all kinds of affirmations, but that it's truly home, and that is me under age, but i didn't have -- >> that's exactly what so many of our authors say, that they almost write it for the, younger own cells. i want to read a sllart of a new york times review from back in 2018, quote, i must have read hundre of books, but i never counted any character like me. minican, nerdy, an immigrant whose first language was spanish. by the time i found alvarez's debut novel, how the garcia girls laughter accidents, i

already resigned myself teasing books as windows rather than mirrors, and quote. i think that's really powerful. decades after publishing this book in 1991, your writing still to some people it's the first representation that they will find of themselves, mirror, not window. not window i have to still, that yep, window, i'm here, are not a window, and that is so heartening. and you, know i wish -- but you are doing the job of keeping those books up there. and so there will be those books available, and not pull off the shelves because people are afraid of anything that is going to be disturbing for other than what they want in a bubble. -- if you go back to the dictatorship. >> you want democracy? you want freedom? you want plurality? and pluralism in this is what you get you e-books.