♪ ♪ ♪ [applause] >> reporter: our thanks to kate snow and josé diaz lard for that report. that's all the time i have today and this weekend. i'm alicia menendez, be sure to follow this show across social media. our handle is at alicia on msnbc. i will see you at american voices, and for now i handed over to my colleague ayman wilkie dean. i hope you have a safe and happy holiday. hello, amen. and>> reporter: hello, alicia,y friend, it's good to see you as always. enjoy the rest of your evening. good evening to, you welcome to ayman tonight. the supreme court and its outsized influence on the 2024 election as we enter the most consequential presidential election of our lives. the conservative justices could

decide whether or not our democracy will survive. that's not hyperbolic. and the battle for the ballot, at least for a, now i will -- the colorado lawsuit. removing trump from the primary ballot in that state and the legal precedent it could set for other state challenges. and rushing to defend, why the republicans who are actually running against donald trump now defending him in the wake of the colorado ruling? i am ayman wilkie dean, let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ this week, something remarkable unfolded in our nation's capital. president biden publicly addressed a group of people who are set to have an extraordinary impact on the upcoming 2024 presidential elections. the nine justices who sit on the united states supreme court. on tuesday, president biden delivered a eulogy at the funeral of the first female

justice, sandra day o'connor, and in his remarks, the president hailed o'connor as an american pioneer, noting her commitment to the court in the rule of law. to her, the supreme court was bedrock. the bedrock of america. it was the vital, the vital line of defense for the valleys and the vision of our republic. >> reporter: biden's words at the washington national cathedral could not be any more timely. over the coming days, weeks, and months, the supreme court will be forced to deliver answers on several fundamental questis at are central to the future of our republic. take for exfriday, we learned the court will not immediately decide whetheor not donald trump has broad immunity for actions he took challenging the 2020 presidential election results. in a one sentence order -- special counsel jack smith's request to circumvent the normal appeals court process. that means the d.c. court of

appeals will be the first to review the -- of immunity. those arguments are scheduled for january the 9th. now, despite this delay, the ultimate decision on trump's immunity still very much lies with the supreme court. that's not the only major questions surrounding the 2024 election. that could soon land in the justices laps. on tuesday, just hours after biden's remarks, the colorado supreme court ruled at the ex president is ineligible to be on the ballot for the states of republican primary. by foot from 43, colorado's court found that trump and his actions leading up to january the 6th 2021 amounted to engaging in an active insurrection. there, for under section three of the 14th amendment is disqualified from holding public office. that means his name cannot appear on the republican primary ballot in that state. however, the judges also put the decision on hold until january 4th 2024. that's when colorado is supposed to submit the primary

ballot. in case the supreme court intervenes. in a new piece for the nation, legal expert in front of the show, ali mystal, says he believes it's almost certain that the justices will pick up this case. however, he also cautions that the conservative-controlled court will almost certainly rule that trump is allowed on the colorado ballot even if they have to tie themselves into a not to justify. quote, the colorado opinion is designed, at least, to make the supreme court look very ugly and partisan when it bends over backwards to save trump and preserve his ability to threaten the country. that is because the colorado opinion is grounded into things the republicans on the court claim to hold a, or textualism, and states rights. we should note here this is just missed stalls prediction at the moment, we still have no idea whether the court will take the colorado case up for what their ultimate decision will look like. however, there is one thing that is becoming clear, these

two cases have said double trump's 2024 campaign on a direct collision course with the united states supreme court. and with both these decisions, the high court could have, as i mentioned earlier, the opportunity not only to decide the fate of the disgraced ex president, what happens to him, but also the faith of our democracy at large. let's discuss this now with my panel, danielle,'s criminal defense attorney and msnbc legal analyst, chris b.o.l.o., -- contributor for the los angeles times. and only john faz, a special correspond for vanity fair and host of the fast politics podcast. all three are great friends of this show. denny, i will start with you. you are the lawyer here, your reaction to that one sentence order from the court denying smith's request to fast-track consideration of trump's immunity claim. were you surprised? i was not surprised. a one sentence order like that avoids the controversy that chief justice roberts and in the court generally as light

trying to avoid. what was interesting about this one line denial is really the defenses approach. we don't know if the court bought into the defenses argument, but the defenses argument, one of many was that, look, this may be an important issue, and it's the most important criminal law issue not just of our generation, maybe an american history, but this important issue doesn't essentially mean that it should be decided quickly. and never before in legal arguments has there been so thinly veiled a true argument. because what they really want to say is, supreme court, all we need to do is delay this until the possibility that our guy is elected and integrated. and these federal cases go away. either he appoints the attorney general to dismiss the cases, or he tries to pardon himself. but he can't literally say that in their moving papers. so instead they have to make the argument that, whoa, this is so important that we need to

slow it down and have a go through the normal channels, through the appellate courts and then the supreme court, for the very reason that it is just so important. it's not a bad legal argument, it's just so obvious that their true argument was we need the delay because unlike any other criminal defendant in american history, if we delay, we can literally make this thing disappear. >> reporter: to that point, kurt, as danny outlined and part of the motivation i would argue that jack smith took this straight to the supreme court is to render a quick decision so that the main trial can get underway and be concluded before donald trump can get into office potentially pardon himself or put in an attorney general to throw the cases out, is this by definition a win for the ex president that he was able to delay it, and as a result, likely push the trial well into -- late into 2024, possibly even a verdict in 2025?

n yeah, i mean, listen, any effort that this delay is this before the 2024 election as a de facto win for donald trump. as you said, if you were to succeed and reclaiming the presidency, he will either pardon himself or he will point an attorney general who will dismiss all of this. i mean, listen, this is really the central thesis of the donald trump presidency. it has nothing to do with the american people, it has nothing to do with the policy agenda that conservatives could like, it's literally, elect me president, and keep me out of jail. this is a president -- a presidential campaign that's gonna be conducted from courtroom to courtroom, to courtroom, to courtroom in this country. and every time he, does he's going to be talking about re-litigating the 2024 election, and making the case that the only way he can overcome what he would call a rigged system aimed against him is to be elected president so that he can dismiss everything. >> reporter: molly, we're running out of time as 2024 gets underway in earnest, just in a couple of weeks, with the

various primaries. how harmful could the smallest delay before donald trump? i think for him the delays are good. he -- it helps him, it helps him kick the can. but it hurts the other candidates because it makes it -- the base likes this. the base, trump says this is not about me, it is of course about him. so he relitigates this in the court of public opinion for the base and the base likes it. so it ends up drowning out the noise of the other candidates which i think is a problem for the other candidates. but yeah, trump is going to kick the can, his people are going to work as hard as they can to try to push this. and you know, time is his goal. delay, delay, delay. this is what he always does. but i think he's really managed to suck up a lot of oxygen and i think that he is really kind of taken that away from the --

the possible anti trump candidate. >> reporter: the other big news this week, guys, and molly, was the colorado news. mark quickly approaching, danny, the states primary dead line ballot bryan names have to be put on the ballot. when can we expect to hear from the supreme court here? could the supreme court gather all of the arguments that it needs, hold the oral arguments, make a decision before the deadline of printing ballots? likely not, but the january 4th deadline imposed by the colorado supreme court really isn't as significant as everyone is making it out to be. here is why. the court is just stayed taking trump off the ballot. it's put the pause button on removing trump off the ballot until that day. but as long as the trump court appeals, it will continue that. state which means trump still remains on the ballot, literally until the court hears otherwise from another court. and of course the trump team is

going to appeal so trump is going to be on the ballot probably for the foreseeable future in colorado. until something happens at another court. and elie mystal wrote a terrific piece in the nation that we talked about at the top of the hour, but i also independently think, agree with him and think that there are so many different ways, if you think of this colorado supreme court opinion as a line of dominoes, you need all of them to remain straight-up for the opinion to survive, but any one of them falls, and the rest of the opinion could likely fall. and just to give you an example, the colorado district court, the lower court, concluded after hearing and evidence that donald trump was an insurrectionist. but then they concluded that because he was not an officer with an section three of the 14th amendment, that even the fact that he committed insurrection did not disqualify him. there are a number of other legal arguments that elie talks about, but for example, it may not be something that the court

can even hear it, maybe not double. maybe something only congress can handle. and elie pointed out it could be too soon to decide, maybe it's too far along, to close to the election to decide it. so there's so many ways, so many hooks to hang that supreme court hat upon that if you're just playing the odds, no matter what team you are on, the odds are, this gets overturned at the supreme court. >> reporter: to that point, court, the court of public opinion, there is been a lot of talk about this ruling that it takes the decision out of the hands of voters. but there is actually a new poll that finds 54% of americans agreed with taking trump off of the ballot. give me your thoughts on that. is this issue as divisive as some would like us to believe or is it more clear cut? should perhaps colorado wait till donald trump is actually convicted of an insurrection to

make the legal argument that he is definitely an insurrectionist even though we all know that he was responsible for january the 6th? i mean, it's interesting hearing republicans talk about, wow, this needs to be in the hands of the voters, not justices. and i don't remember them making that case when the supreme court decided the presidential election in 2000, i'm sure al gore would love to hear republicans taking on justices should not be determining the outcomes of presidential elections. from all this talk of republicans about the bulls vote, the people did decide. they decided that donald trump lost and the republicans did not accept that, and now they fermented an insurrection attempt to overthrow the government. you cannot say no the people should decide when you try to overthrow the will of the people on the floor of the united states house of representatives the eve of january six where 150 republicans voted to throw out the results of a free and fair election. you can't keep having it both ways. which one is it, folks? by the, way i love how also they're saying now, well,

listen, we should have states rights decide everything when it comes to things like abortion, but when a state like colorado exercises state sovereignty, they want to overrule it. >> reporter: the hypocrisy is not surprising no matter how many times they keep flip-flopping on some of these issues. molly, in the 24 hours following that colorado supreme court decision, social media outlets reflected with threats against the justices ruled in the case. that's actually according to some of our own reporting obtained by nbc. obviously, not a surprise, but also a familiar pattern, if you will, trump faces a legal setback, his acolytes and others go after the officials who make these decisions. why do we risk as a nation if this becomes the new normal that every time sever one renders a decision against trump world, the maga world threatens those officials? rl threatens those officials? i feel like this is business as usual for trump world.

this is what they do, they fill your in box with death threats. i wanna talk for minute about this senate and how they were really complicit in all of this. because they had an opportunity to convict trump. had they done, that we would not be here, right? they did not convict trump but there were ten votes short, probably because they don't want to get death threats like these colorado judges are getting. and i think that's a really important point. because we got here because republicans continually tech -- kicked the can. because there were cowardly, and they were scared. and they decided they would just do what was easiest for them and they would hope that trump won away. this is how we are here. so i think there's a lot of culpability there and we could have -- this could've been over months ago, or years ago. >> reporter: to your point, this is something that romney has echoed as well in that book that can't mount. some of the decisions that senators were making exactly what you said, molly, they just

wanted to take the easiest road and not have to deal with threats against them and their families. panel, please take around. we have a lot more to discuss throughout this hour. up next, a deeper look at that colorado ruling and why it is different from attempts and other states to remove trump from the ballot. stay with us. from the ballot. stay with us

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all make the court make that decision. that means a supported an insurrection, there's no question about it. none, zero. >> reporter: that was president biden reacting to the supreme court's ruling. at least 16 other states have opened legal challenges to trump's eligibility to office. some are on appeal, others were dismissed. as msnbc legal analyst lisa reuben noted, these are not like the colorado case, these were decided on procedural grounds are not whether or not trump engage in an insurrection, like in florida where a judge ruled earlier this year that a lawyer and other voters who challenged trump's candidacy didn't have standing to bring the litigation. but not making any decisions on the merits of whether trump is eligible to run for office under the 14th amendment. in minnesota where the state supreme court ruled that there is no law barring trump from serving on the primary ballot, but challengers could bring a case against trump again if he makes it to the general election.

joining me now is donald sherman, and senior vice president and chief counsel of crew, that's a nonprofit rauch dog that filed the colorado case. donald, it's good to have you on the show. thank you for making time for us. so a lot of discussion this week about this case, and i wanted to start by getting your thoughts on the argument that my colleague lisa reuben laid out here. how is the colorado case different than those that have been dismissed and other states and what made yours successful? thanks for having me on. so i think the thing -- the thing that's most different about colorado's colorado law. as you noted, most of the cases that have failed have failed on procedural grounds because either they were filed in the wrong corridor by the wrong person. or state law did not afford the suing party an opportunity to bring a case like this.

and people assume that this analysis breaks down with red states and blue states. it really doesn't. you have to look at the individual states and individual laws. we found six brave plaintiffs in colorado, republicans and unaffiliated voters who are willing to sue in colorado law, for voters to bring a battle challenge like this, which was obviously confirmed by the colorado supreme court this week. >> reporter: does it matter that donald trump has not yet been convicted in a court of law as an insurrectionist or responsible for january the 6th? would that -- i'd make your case as it goes to the supreme potentially of donald trump does appeal which a lot of people obviously think he will, what to make the case stronger if he would've waited for conviction? so, it's important to remember that this is a qualification for office.

donald trump's life or liberty is not in jeopardy. you don't need a criminal conviction in order to be disqualified from office. this is a qualification for office just like any other, being 35 years old, having served -- or been elected president twice, in most states, they allow these decisions to happen without going to court at all. in colorado, you have to bring the case, as we did, and proved by preponderance of evidence that the person is not disqualified. judge wallace and the colorado supreme court believe that we proved our case by clear and convincing evidence. and a higher standard. if you look back at the precedents, there've been eight individuals disqualified, none of them have been convicted of the crime of insurrection including the new mexico official who -- disqualified last year.

>> reporter: i wanted to read a pa of the msnbc.com piece that you wrote along with noah bookbinder. u wrote in part that without a clear decision on this constitutional issue, millions of americans could see their votes wasted on a candidate who's not constitutionally allowed to serve. a, can you expand on that for us, and b, are you aware that some of our leaguer experts were saying earlier, this might not be resolved by the time that voters in your state, colorado, will actually have to make a decision on the primary ballots? sure, so our clients, our six republican and unaffiliated voters in colorado who don't want their votes to be looted or wasted in a primary that involves a disqualified candidate. they want -- what they want is to have a

primary with only qualified candidates. and for this question to be resolved, before the primaries held on march 5th, we certainly have seen donald trump's efforts. in our case and others, to delay proceedings. as much as possible. our team scratch and claw to get this case to a trial. we had a five-day trial. where trump had an opportunity to call witnesses and cross examine our witnesses. he had plenty of due process but also we wanted to move this proceeding quickly. so that colorado voters had clarity on who is qualified and who was not. certainly, the supreme court reaches the merits of this case, the entire nation will have clarity on that question. >> reporter: let me swit gears a little bit if i, can it's important, butt' tangential to this. i want to ask you about new reporting from propublica that reveals justice clarence thomas was worried about his finances early on in his career and

tried to push for other ways to make money including removing a ban on paid speaking, engagements for the supreme court. your organization has filed criminal and civil complaints against clarence thomas, i want you, if you, can to expand on the argument that you're making. but on this issue of the colorado, voting if it makes its way to the supreme court, should somebody like justice thomas recuse himself from hearing based on comments on him and his wife have been making regarding the 2020 election? so, first, the companies that were brought last year against justice thomas were based on his failure to report certain gifts that he received over a period of time from an individual who befriended him after he became justice on the supreme court. and had business before the court. so we will see how those complaints proceed. i think with respect to our

case, there is a pretty significant bar for when a justice should recuse. i think it's a question for justice thomas. unlike in some of the other cases that were at issue, we push for justice thomas's recusal, his spouse is not a witness, or was not a witness in our case. certainly you can argue she was a witness to some of the -- that related to january 6th. but specifically was not relevant to our case at the lower court. so i think the rules apply differently here than in some of the other cases. all right, mr. donald chairmen,, sir happy holidays. i appreciate you spending time with us this weekend. thank you so much. >> reporter: take care, sir. coming, up we will turn to the political side of the colorado ballot question and how republicans, including those who could stand to benefit from the court's decision, are still rushing to trump's defense.

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position in the republican presidential primary is so dominant that immediately after the colorado supreme court's ruling, the ex presidents primary rivals actually leapt to his defense. ron desantis, nikki haley, chris christie, vivek ramaswamy, all slammed the ruling as an anti-democratic abuse of power. none of the other candidates noted that trump did try to thro a free and fair election or that he did incite an insurrection. in fact, ramaswamy went a step further pledging to withdraw from the colorado gop primary calling other candidates to do the same. let's bring back kurt and molly jong-fast into the conversation. kurt, i need to get your reaction on this stunt ramaswamy trying to pull. here literally saying, if trump can beat me, i don't even want to run for president.

is that a fair characterization? well it's easy to withdraw from something you have no chance of actually winning. which is the case with ramaswamy. and i think you hit the nail on the head there. it's just a stunt. it's a publicity sund. because that's what this guy is. he's just a walking publicity stone trying to get little tidbits on tiktok and social media. but there's no substance there. there is no there there. that's like saying, hey, if i've got a lot to do x, i'm not going to show up at the nba all-star game this. here will guess, but i'm not gonna be in the all-star game, so it doesn't really matter, does it? >> reporter: i was going to, say where you're not invited and decided not to go, or did you say i'm not going -- i should be invited. let me just say that right now, nba. >> reporter: molly, how do you explain this behavior. is this adjusts that the candidates won a job in the administration or is this knee-jerk behavior to just always immediately defend trump

no matter what. because on one had i still feel that nikki haley's and the vivek ramaswamy's are addition in four positions on the trump world so they still have to show that they're loyal and pay their role to donald, trump but then -- as a potential number two or number three pick. yes, it's really strange. they've never offered anything but sort of loose diluted kind of mimeograph donald trump, right? they never said i'm not donald trump, and here's why i'm actually a much better candidate. there is no one, even trump's people, know that trump is not a good candidate. he's facing 91 counts of criminal counts. this is not a great candidate. but it doesn't matter because these republicans have decided they've seen the polling and they think for whatever reason that they can offer something that is and trumpism. so they're offering this lay

trumpism, and anytime trump comes up against any problem, they are just jumping all over each other to defend him in a really, truly embarrassing way. again, maybe they're running for vice president. who's even to know what is happening in their hearts of minds? but it is appalling. and every time they do that, they're degrading the rule of law, right? and they're sort of missing on these institutions which are really the fundamental bedrock of our democracy. >> reporter: i thought you were going to say they're degrading themselves. you are totally read that they're degrading the rule of law, but they're basing and degrading themselves by embarrassing themselves by going to slow. kurt, as all of trump's primary opponents, as we said, there defending him here. he's out on tuesday -- i think he put out a statement raining, the rhonda sanctimonious team -- to go on to greener pastures. it's been a terrible experience for them as they have watched their candidate fall violently

from the sky like a wounded bird. it seems to me there is no mutual affection here between donald trump in any of these people. he's with them so hard that i think if any of them were to dare to speak out, he would just absolutely annihilate them and i think that scares them. this is the absurdity of this entire field. they're supposed to be grown-ups. there is supposed to be adults wanting to have the highest office in the land. yet, they are so petrified of this guy calling them names that they fall in line, get in line, and are reticent to criticize him at any point in the way which is like, how are you supposed to defeat somebody in a popularity contest when you're unwilling to criticize that person, you're giving the voters no rationale for why they should pick you over that person. since 2016, i've been waiting for republicans to figure it out. figure out the fact that donald

trump is basically a living, breathing, walking, w w e caricature and that's how he conducts himself every single time he goes on the stage, it's like sir john cena hits the ring in doing a promo, that's donald trump. the only way to beat that, the only way to overcome that is to reply in kind. not retreat, not back down, not hide, not grovel. you have to step up and, rhetorically speaking, hit the guy in the head but the steel chair. >> reporter: i don't think you're gonna get that for many of these folks, they don't have the spine front, they don't have the charisma for it. and they certainly don't have the willingness for, which is the most important part. curt, molly, don't go anywhere. we have a lot more to discuss. we're gonna squeeze in a quick break. afterwards, we will discuss donald trump's jam-packed 2024 legal calendar. guess what? it all begins on january the 2nd. 2nd. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills

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him with a title that is actually a first for our program. a criminal defendant of the year award. ♪ ♪ ♪ and just a five month span, trump was indicted for, times faces 91 criminal charges starting with the probe into the hush money payments for adult film star stormy daniels, the mar-a-lago documents case, and the two election interference case about that state and federal levels. regarding the letter, we know the supreme court just yesterday declined a fast-tracking decision on whether the ex president is immune from prosecution. that means there is still some deadlines to read out the year. trump's team had to submit a brief explaining his immunity deal to the d.c. circuit by today. jack smith will then have to file his briefing opposing the appeal by the 29th. trump's team must respond to that by january the 2nd, and oral arguments are set for the 9th of january. there is no holiday downtime for four times criminally

indicted ex president it seems. trump's legal calendar is also packed on the civil front as well. that is course involves his closing arguments and the new york civil courts trial that affects at the -- eugene carroll's second defamation case on january the 16, and that is just from now until the end of january. when trump isn't campaigning for a second term as a, quote, law and order candidate, he'll be spending almost all of 2024 in and out of civil and criminal court. he could probably write a book about it at some point, that is if he doesn't plagiarize. it has bring back my panel to discuss this. molly, i will start with you. do you agree with our pick for trump as a criminal defendant of the year? and i apologize because quite honestly,, look george santos gave him a run for his money. he was snapped, some people may feel like george santos deserves the not here, but he came close second in our office poll.

we are going to, me right? >> reporter: yeah, molly. oh, yeah. yes. george santos really did give him a run for the money but i do think ultimately trump has much more legal exposure and he's got all these civil cases. you know, i just would want to point out that the people who are paying for all these lawyers are his donors. these are small dollar donors who are paying for it. these are millions, and millions of dollars of legal fees. they are being paid for by people who really have been sold the bill of goods by him that he is somehow fighting for them when he's technically just like fighting because he cheated on his taxes, right. and fighting because he defamed e. jean carroll. so these are hardworking americans who are giving him their money because they think he's somehow giving them retribution which is ultimately like a very sort of sad moment in a certain way again you

could have your criticisms of his supporters but they are being sold a bill of goods that are really -- isn't really true. >> reporter: the grift continues for trump world at the expense of small donor hardworking americans. day, what do you make of his putt legal calendar? what we just outlined was basically just until now and january alone. what stands out to you especially when it comes to these trials, both criminally and civil? trump was always the pages. he is no stranger to the courtroom or the courthouse but look, my answer is going to be a little boring in that it's the four communal cases. those take priority. ,, -- those are a distance second. all four criminal cases are tied for first. and in that order, of course, you're just playing the odds. the federal cases are the most

important on his calendar. simply because you've always got a better shot in state court than you do in federal court. federal prosecutors and as you've just seen from the efficiency with which jacks mitt and his team operate, when they make a case, it generally stays made. the odds for criminal defense attorneys like me in federal court are very grim and the odds are no different for someone like donald trump who faces a number of counts. so those are his -- the biggest most extant threats to his liberty, to everything, else to his candidacy. it's those two federal cases. that's why he needs to delay. if he delays beyond the election, beyond inauguration, those federal cases, poof, into the wind. we >> reporter: heard, there is also the multiple trial that he's facing in january, the hush money, case the georgia probe, the classified documents case, what do you think will be the most damaging trial for him next year, both not just

criminally speaking as denny was laying out, but actually politically speaking if any of these play out? speaking if any >> reporter: yot my eye on the georgia case, only because that's one of the ones that could very well end up being televised. i think that when you look at the trump republican party, so many of those people get their news, we'll call it filtered propaganda, they don't hear the other side of the story. the only here that trump's aggrieved side of the story. and if this thing is televised, that will be a court event unlike anything we've seen, probably since oj simpson in terms of how many americans who just tune in to watch donald trump on trial, and so many of the trump supporters, so many of those working class americans, cutting out the small dollar donor checks, they're gonna see for the first time the other side of the story. the evidence that is going to be presented, it's stuff that doesn't make it on to fox news.

i think that could be politically interesting in terms of what impact it could have. people who for the first time will actually be told the facts and the truth about what is going on. >> reporter: molly, look into your crystal ball for me here, 2023, a bad year for donald trump with these indictments. 2024, do you think it will be worse? i mean, this is the scariest question, right? i hope that he's held accountable. look, again and again, people are scared to hold him accountable. republican politicians, even some democratic politicians. i mean the rule of law, i hope that he gets held accountable. that they say i get the 14th amendment can't be put in place because he's not in office. the word, the legal word play here is kind of nuts. so i do hope he gets held accountable for an insurrection and all that pressuring of the state legislatures, because

this is what -- you know, these are the fundamentals. if we don't have this, we don't have anything. again, this is the do you want to have more elections election. >> reporter: so, danny, i want to close out on you on this point, and it's not to be alarmist and scare anyone, but when i look at the different cases that could potentially play, out i see them all ending up in some case with very important legal questions that have not been resolved by this country. if for example right now with the colorado case, if that plays out, can the president be immune -- excuse, made the federal case road jack smith -- they said we will go back to the appeals, cardiff place, we haven't even gotten to the central question, can a president be immune for sex in office? if the -- if trump wins the presidency, can the state compel a sitting president to face the penalty for his crimes? i feel like an any scenario

that we try to play out legally over the course of the next, year there is some fundamental legal questions that have not been resolved. and that scares me. it makes me think we're heading to a constitutional crisis in some ways. i'm not ready to say constitutional crisis. i think the difference is that these are constitutionally unanswered questions. i don't think it's necessarily a crisis. in fact, it can be argued that from a academic constitutional perspective, the presidency has fleshed out constitutional questions that you we could never imagined we get. two it started with the elements clause, now we're on to the contras of presidential immunity from criminal prosecution. and now we are going to deal with things like ballot access. by the, way the colorado supreme court case has about seven distinct issues within it that are of constitutional importance. so i don't think it's being alarmist, but it's going to be hectic. i think we can safely say that.

hectic is not a latin or constitutional term, but it's going to be like that from now until november. and really beyond because i've said it many times, i've said it on your show, i've said save the tape, although i never mean it. but cases like the georgia case, they're not going to trial until 2025. so november and beyond, it's significant. because even after november, the question becomes, if convicted and the odds are astronomically high, will he be convicted on something, what do you do, how do you imprison a president like trump? >> reporter: those questions, look, i have to say i like your optimism, that's where we're gonna end with that optimism. but i also don't have the same faith that you do in this sitting supreme court to do the right thing. so i will leave that as the asterisks. and we will save the tape and hopefully we'll come back -- one of us will be right, one of us will be wrong. we will see. i want to say special thank you to all think three of. you i know it's a holiday weekend, i so appreciate you spending time with. us danny cevallos, can you are

della, when, thank you, great panel. happy holidays all of you. all the latest, the war in gaza and its brutal impact on children. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ that's my babyyy! -ow! get mucinex instasoothe. it's comeback season.

there's something going around the gordon home. good thing gertrude found delsym. now what's going around is 12-hour cough relief. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. >> reporter: since october 7th, more than 20,000 people have been killed in gaza according to the territories health authority. it's a historic and staggering loss of life that doesn't even include those who remain buried

under the rubble of bombed buildings. among the dead approximately 8000 children. nbc's holly gorani has more for us on what the children of gaza are now facing. >> reporter: in rafah on this december day, a man runs down an alleyway carrying an injured toddler. the girl's name is rakim, she is unconscious. the man claims into an ambulance with her. the rubble of the little girl was pulled from has become a familiar scene and gaza. air, collapsed buildings, chaos. the war here has killed and wounded nearly 15,000 children in a little over two months according to usf. the u.n.'s tom white has remained in gaza throughout. children, after children, after children who lie in the hospital corridors with horrific injuries. lots of them serious blast

injuries. they've lost limbs. >> reporter: it's not just the injured, it's the disabled and homeless. this u.n. run school in southern gaza has become a refuge for orphans and kids with complex medical needs. some several times displaced, like 90% of the strip. sometimes, it's the adult who cries as the children stay silent, or watch in four as building's collapse around them. leaving children covered in debris and dust. there aren't enough emergency vehicles, so any mode of transport will have to do in gaza. horse drawn courts, pick up trucks, motor taxes, the stream of casualties seems angeles. when i have to deal with a child, or a baby, without their family, without their father and mother, i feel heavy hearted and grief stricken. >> reporter: back at the kuwait specialty hospital in rough, a

little really handle to the medical team. the doctors check, does she have a pulse? rain all bonded, we are told, doesn't make it. nearby hospitals, parents hug their kids lifeless bodies, wrapped in shrouds. a last embrace before letting go for good. for them, it's too late. but for hundreds of thousands of others, the future remains unknown. my wishes for the war to end and go back to my house, this little girl says. for these children, perhaps, there is still might be a chance. >> reporter: our thanks to nbc's holly gorani for that. there's another hour of ayman, don't go anywhere. arp. try new neuriva ultra. think bigger. from pep in their step to shine in their coats, when people switch their dog's food to the farmer's dog,

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