>> coming up on the second hour

of ayman, damning you evidence in the middle of the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. what this could mean for jack smith's investigation, and why the republican national committee could also be punished. then, the ex president triples down on his authoritarian rhetoric and draws eyebrow raising comparisons. and, what biden allies are doing right now to stop trump's revenge driven campaign should he win reelection. i am ayman, let's get started.

we start this hour, some new bombshell reporting revealing what we all assumed was the case that just like in georgia, donald trump pressured republican officials to overturn the 2020 election results. this time, and michig. just like in georgia, there are now tapes to prove it. th detroit news reports that then president donald trump, personally pressured to republican members of the wayne county board of canvassers, not to sign the certification of the counties 2020 presidential election results. according to recordings reviewed by the outlet. detroit news says that the recordings were made by someone present for the conversation but were obtained through an edia who was not present. nbc news has not heard or verify the recordings. on them, ump has been heard ing the two officials, monica palmer and william n, ty would look quote, terrible, if they signed the documes after the fit vote osition. , then, later in the same meeting, voted to approve

certification of the counties election results. trump added, quote, we've got to fight for our country, we cannot let the pple take our country away from us. but, trump was not alone in trying to pressure palmer and hartman. here's an interesting bit. the detroit news reports that he was joined by rnc chair woman, ronna mcdaniel, a michigan native who sit out at one point in the call, that if you can go home tonight, do not sign. we will get you attorneys. palmer and hartman left the canvassers meeting without signing the official statement of votes for wayne county, and the following day, unsuccessfully tried to rescind their votes in favor of certification. we have an all-star panel to break things down for, as jessica levinson, msnbc columnist and law school professor. former florida congressman and msnbc political analyst, carlos curbelo, and danielle moodie, host of the woke atf daily podcast. great to have all of you with us this hour. jessica, i'll start with you. your reaction to the startling

report from the detroit news. i mean, on one hand, not really surprising because we have had the georgia tapes, we knew about the broader effort across multiple states. but now, we have yet again, according to the detroit news, recordings of this pressure campaign. could donald trump and ronna mcdaniel be facing some serious legal troubles here? >> yes. as we know, former president trump already is, but what do we specifically mean? well, now, we are potentially looking at federal bribery charges. he said do this thing, do this official act, don't certify, and we will get you a thing of value. we will get you an attorney. we could also potentially be looking at federal services prod. the other things, we have to existing cases pending against the former president that deal with election interference. so, it is possible that you could amend the complaints in those particular cases. what are we talking about? the federal case that it's pending before judge chutkan,

and we are also talking about the georgia case, which mentions the pressure campaign and other states. so what we have here is evidence that the pressure campaign, the attempts at personal interference began way before georgia, which we already knew. and we have a recording that a verified could also go to trump's state of mind. so yes, this is not just bad politically, it also has potential legal repercussions here. >> danielle, this is not the first time, as i mentioned, but we have heard trump pressure election officials. we all remember that phone call to the georgia secretary of state. there is a pattern here. and i think that it is clear by now that maybe, maybe, even if it is three years later, we are still just learning more about this pressure campaign across multiple states. >> honestly, in, it is obscene. because again, if it were you and i, if it were anybody on this panel, if it was anybody else in america, we would be in

jail, right? the amount of cancel and griddle bread crumbs that are leading back to donald trump's wrongdoing, should have him in an oven. but it doesn't, because at the end of the day, he is donald trump. he is a very rich, wealthy, white, connected, cisgendered man who is connected to power. and that is why we still have these conversations about maybe, maybe, what if, maybe the judge will do something, but at the end of the day it is just, like how many times do we have to hear this same story over and over again? and still wait for donald trump to be convicted on a crime. still wait for his attorneys to stop feeling, right? the supreme court just the other day said, you know what? we will kick it back down. and wait more. so, i love the fact that we learn more after three years. but after three years i think that america is losing patience. >> that's a very important point as well. having this legal system here for everyone. congressman, it is one thing for trump to be on this call

but he also had to head to the rnc with ron mcdaniel helping him to try to pressure these officials. is that not a tacit endorsement from the republican party? does that not mean that her and her capacity as the chair of the rnc at the time implicating the organization? >> that is right, amen. this is the first evidence that the republican party itself, that the committee had any involvement in this effort by former president trump to steal, or to change the election results. ronna mcdaniel, who has been a fairly distant figure through this process, donald trump doesn't appear to be as close as he used to be. now she's going to be dragged back into trump world, and she's probably going to have to sit with some lot enforcement officials at some point to explain what she was doing and why and whether or not [inaudible]

donald trump reverse the result of the election in michigan. >> jessica, i want to point out something which was interesting and it is important to note this that this recording was not reportedly -- it was reportedly not among the materials handed over to jack smith by the michigan secretary of state office. what questions could this raise for jack smith's case in the election interference probe if he is learning about them now? first of all, i assume he's learning about them now and most of the rest of us, but what does it mean for his case? >> so, one, i think you are exactly right to say that we assume, but of course we do not know for sure. to, what does it do? it tells a very consistent story as we have been discussing. the election interference case, and jack smith's complaint talks about a broad based pressure campaign. and here we have another example of that. so, what could this offer to jack smith? it could offer him the possibility of amending, and

saying i want to add not just more facts, but more charges. we talked about potentially federal bribery charges, we talked about on his services charges, and of course, as we've already discussed, that case that federal election interference case is facing some questions before, eventually the supreme court. there is one of the questions, presidential immunity, which threatens to junk the entire case. i don't think the supreme court will say the former president is absolutely immune but that is a question pending. second, there is a question of two of the four counts in the indictment, which rely on that federal obstruction statute, which is being challenged as not being applicable to the activities on january six. so, potentially offers jack smith more in the way of facts and charging. >> congressman, what do you make of it in terms of an important element in a broader pattern for jack smith as he pursues this case? and whether or not now the implication of ronna mcdaniel

matters to the big picture? >> i think that this really helps prosecutors make the case that this was an organized effort. a lot of people say, well, this was just trump, he was being reckless, he didn't really know what he was doing or what he was saying. no, he was pretty clear that this was a strategic, stealthy effort to interfere with election results in a number of states. we have only heard now, or are aware of these reports from georgia and michigan. there were probably many other conversations. so i think like you said at the beginning of the segment, it is clear that there is a pattern here that there was an organized effort and that other people helped donald trump. that it wasn't just him acting alone. >> danielle, let me play for you what the admission secretary of state told my colleague chris hayes last night about how concerned she was over how wayne county could've been the first domino

to fall in trump's election subversion plot. >> we knew we were the first domino to fall if we failed to stop the domino from falling. that was a win for these election subversion attempts. who knows what could happen next? thankfully, it didn't fall. the people stood firm and as a result the elections were certified. >> for me, daniel, we came to a razor-thin moment, if you will, of losing our democracy because whether it is mike pence on january 6th, brad raffensperger and not finding him a vote, or these individuals and wayne county, i guess that it is not the law it is just people interpreting what they think they should be doing. that is how close we came to losing our democracy. >> that is what i want people to pay attention to as we turn the calendar year into 2024. the reality is the only reason why we still have a democracy is because of a handful of people who decided that the constitution was what they took

an oath to and not donald trump. in 2024, what we know is that those fences will have already been tested and those people who pledged their loyalty to the united states will no longer be there. people need to be very clear about where we are right now. and what donald trump could possibly do in 2024, which is a no holds bar presidency with a bunch of sikh offense which are doing his bidding. >> definitely a scary thought because as we know it is not the guardrails, it literally came down to a handful of people who interpreted these matters in their own ways. please stick around we have got a lot more to discuss. after the break donald trump's extreme rhetoric and the biden campaign speak response. biden campaign speak response. campaign speak response. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2.

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ending in discussion than the age bomb. yes, hitler, comparing someone to a not see dictator is almost a surefire way to lose both friends and arguments. this week, for some few words felt more appropriate than that h bomb. over the past month, we saw donald trump call his political opponents for him in, and state that immigrants were quote, poisoning the blood of our country. and just this week the disgraced ex president doubled and even tripled down in a speech in iowa, trump said that undocumented immigrants from africa, asia, and south america were, quote, destroying the blood of country. the language is eerily similar to a passage from mein kampf, when hitler describes the contamination of the blood when referring to what he sees as a threat to the purity of the aryan race. trump's rhetori is so extreme, so hateful, so dehumanizing, that his allies on capitol hill are scurrying away from

reporters. and it has the biden campaign apologetically attacking trump for what he is. a fascist to quote, spirited adolf hitler. as political reports, it was the fourth time in the past six weeks that the biden campaign has likened trump's remarks to hitler's in the written statements. michael tyler, the biden campaign's communication director told the outlet, quote, every time he says that we are going to call it out. and we are going to make sure that people understand just how serious that is every single time. that subtlety, of course subtlety i should know it is not the name of the game here. on wednesday, the biden campaign posted a graphic, all but explicitly likening trump to adolf hitler. you see it there. with images of the two men and their quotes, side by side. it followed an interview on this network where vice president kamala harris throw from that very same point. >> it is language that is meant

to divide us and language that people have rightly found similar to the language of hitler. >> for the record, donald trump dismissed the comparison and defended himself saying quote, i've never read mine comfy where the biden spokesperson replied, probably the audio book then. we will bring back carlos curbelo, i will start with you this round, what do you make of the comparisons between trump and hitler. do you think it is pointing out a parallel that is valid for the american people to recognize? >> it is pretty clear that donald trump is trying to divide the country on racial and ethnic bonds for his own personal gain. it is a strategy that many have used over many decades and centuries. he knows what he is doing, he is sending a message to the

u.s. population to try to divide that population to sow resentment that might help provide him back to the presidency. that is his goal to obtain power, and to keep power, to remain in power, donald trump expressed admiration for dictators, including the dictatorship in cuba for being able to stay in power so long. so, donald trump's behavior is there for everyone to see, and if it happens to look like the behavior of other bad actors in history, there is a good reason for it. >> what do you make, danielle, of the biden administration here in the way that they are responding to what they invoked hitler, trump, obviously being compared to hitler, they invoked him four times over the past six weeks. how do you feel that the biden administration should handle the language that is coming out from donald trump as they go

into 2024? >> look, eamonn. i think the american people need to handle it with this seriousness. when donald trump tells you who he is, when he invokes certain thoughts, we should believe him. and i am wondering when this is going to be elevated from being racially pinged, from echoing hitler, to actually being authoritarian and to actually being fascist language. because language actually matters right now. and what we are saying is that this echoes of hitler, which we are saying is that something seems racially changed, it may be antisemitic. no, donald trump is referring to his political opponents as women. he is telling you that if he becomes president of the united states again, he is going to be your force of retribution. he is telling you that he is going to weaponize our agencies on his behalf, and that you have his people telling you exactly what it is not they plan to do. imagine stephen miller as the

head of the department of justice? imagine tucker carlson or steve bannon as cabinet members? this is what these people want. and you have the heritage foundation which has 100-day plan. they are ready to go on day one. and the thing that i keep saying every single time that i had the opportunity is that the american people need to be ready to go on election day. because what donald trump is saying is that he will do, if the jokes are over. >> do you think that the american public recognizes the severity and the gravity of the language that donald trump is using? it's not just media types, politicians, but the average voter to daniel's point, who should be ready to vote on 2024 like this is the most consequential election in our nation's history? do they get the rhetoric? do they get the severity of the moment? >> eamonn, not all americans deal. but i believe that enough americans do.

why has donald trump lost three general elections in a row? 2018, 2020, 2022. swing voters in swing states all over the country, and in 2018 and 2022, they rejected donald trump and the candidates that were aligned with his movement. why? because they understand how dangerous trump's lies are. they understand how dangerous trump's rhetoric is. they understand how toxic trump's style is. yes, i believe that they are taking a coalition of voters in america that understand that this is bad for our country. and we've seen the coalition show up in three consecutive general elections. >> all right, carlos, danielle, please stay with me. we have a lot more to discuss after the break. we will discuss the effort to stop donald trump's retribution agenda. stay with us. with us

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year's election, not only will he be more adept to the ends and outs of his executive powers but he will also be coming in to a more compliant congress. trump will enjoy vigorous backing from the vast majority of gop leaders and ranking file republicans. his biggest critics, such as senator mitt romney and former congresswoman liz cheney will be long gone. the republicans would think that congress would be more willing to do its bidding, including the current speaker of the house, mike johnson who reportedly holds regular talks with donald trump. we also know that trump's 2025 plants including purging federal government workers and replacing them -- trump has similar plans for stalking his cabinet with loyalists. meanwhile, the biden administration, lawmakers, and advocacy groups are trying to fight back. according to msnbc news there

are efforts to -- which which trump government workers of their protections and make it easier to fire them. i will start with you. as i just mentioned advocates and lawmakers are trying to work on regulating and legislating efforts to stop the schedule moving forward. nbc news thinks that these efforts are not seen as a substantial solution or even a real threat by their opponents. give me what the law says here. legally speaking, what other options are available to stop a president from coming in and having a loyalty tests and says if you are a maga idealogue, you have to have state employees and technocrats removed from their positions. >> i think what we saw last time around is that the trump presidency was really a stress test on a rule of law and system of government.

the next time around, if there is a next time around, it would be even more so. in terms of what the law says, civil servants currently have protection, because we want to be a political actors to keep the government running. we don't want them, in the same way that we want federal judges to be part of politics. we do not want them to be pledging loyalty oaths to whoever is in power. now, could that change? absolutely. the president tried to change that, as we said, with a short-lived schedule at the end of his term. that would make it easier to fire these civil servants. easier to fill those jobs with loyalists. now, what can you do to try to stop it? legislation is the best answer but in this particular climate, with a historically unproductive congress, that is not likely. good try to implement

regulations, but one thing we learned is that regulations can be unlearned by the next administration. i don't mean to pour cold water on people who are watching, but presidents have an enormous amount of power. that is one of the things that we saw in that we could see again. it is going to be very hard to put up as many guardrails as we might want to. >> it has been one of the critiques in the last four years that this current administration with a democratically controlled congress for the first two years could try to pass some of these during the democracy. including things like the filibuster. let me get your thoughts on this, you have a few critics left, but they are all really heading out of congress. the republican party is effectively the party of donald trump. it is a maggot driven ideological party. we've talked about this for years, you know, that they've become one of the same. there is no longer the opposition within the republican party to maga.

>> i think a big question is where is mitch mcconnell in 2025 of donald trump does make it back to the white house? because mcconnell, even though he doesn't have a perfect record according to many in this regard, he has shown himself to be an institutionalist, he hasn't talked to donald trump in years. mitch mcconnell might be done in 2025 in the senate is led by suddenly more than what we've seen from some republican leadership. there are some real concerns in terms of what can happen in a second trump term. and certainly there's fewer republicans in congress who would be willing to stand up to donald trump along those republicans lost the reelection efforts in primaries, or they simply retire from congress by everything that has happened in the country. there's certainly more risk in

trump to then trump one. >> you mentioned some names in a potential cabinet. trump is planning on stacking the government with loyalists who would show him no restraints. what do you fear we will see in a second trump term which we didn't see in the first if you do have a stephen miller as an attorney general heading up the attorney -- tucker carlson as a vice president, i can go on and on, kash patel, director of the cia. >> we will not be on this network because they said that they were going to shut it down. so there will not be the fourth state which is about journalism and about providing the people with the truth. in a trump second term, which i want people to understand, we already live through the past four years of donald trump. the reason why we are in the space of anxiety and fear and the more division is because of maga supremacy.

so, the idea that there would be a second trump term and we think that after that we have 2028, we don't. it would be the last united states president that we know because as he said, multiple times on the campaign stump that maybe i will negotiate once i become president again to see if i am not bode another four years. negotiators if he's going to hold america hostage the way he did he try to do on january 6th, 2021? our folks opposed to wake up to this very clear reality that donald trump is a 50/50 chance in 2024 that america can't take because we have already been stressed tested and we almost broke. and the next time around the absolutely will. >> i want to get your thoughts about the legal process here. we know that trump had the supreme court with conservative justices not to mention the federal circuit judges as well throughout the country. the supreme court is going to

be facing the very important decisions, as i have been saying over the past hour or so, that could potentially alter how our democracy functions and whether or not the president even has immunity for any crimes that he allegedly has committed while in office, or after office in the name of his office. what do you make of whether or not the supreme court will meet the moment, just your general thoughts on the concerns we have about the supreme court in this moment in our history? >> so, one thing that i think that people should take some heart in is when it came to the 2020 election, and when it came to all of those unsuccessful challenges that trump, and team trump did bring in federal court, they were all batted away by the supreme court. the supreme court didn't reach in and say you know what? we really want to help him out. in my read of the supreme court it is that it is historically conservative. the most conservative court that we have had an 80, maybe 95 years. but that does not mean that they want donald trump back.

i think what it means is what we've seen it means that they wanted to overturn roe v. wade. they did. they wanted to get rid of affirmative action. they did. they wanted to likely widow away the administrative state as we've been talking about. they likelyig chevron difference cases pending before it. but does that mean that it will help donald trump? i think it is a distinction and we have to wait to see what happens in the big colorado case. what happens in the case and presidential immunity. what happens with the federal obstruction statute. if the court says that there's presidential immunity to criminal prosecution than i think that we know we are at least the majority of the court is going. because the president clearly tells us that that immunity does not exist for criminal prosecutions. so i know that we hate waiting but we have to wait, not if it is conservative but if it is

deeply pro trump. >> we will hope that we do the right thing. thank you, i really appreciate your time. as i said earlier to our guests, i know it is a holiday weekend so i appreciate every quality that you spend with us. thank you. just ahead we will switch gears and look at the united states role in what is happening in gaza. stay with us. ening in gaza stay with us stay with us

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on wednesday, president joe biden reacted to the staggering life of loss like this. >> your reaction to 20,000 dead in gaza? >> it was tragic. >> although biden reportedly struck a slightly more critical tone towards israel in recent weeks warning prime minister benjamin netanyahu that indiscriminate bombing of gaza was beginning to alienate the nation's allies, that altered tone has not been accompanied by any substantive change in policy from this administration. the president has yet to impose any conditions on military aid to israel. and with an aid package stalled in congress, biden state department took the extraordinary step of bypassing lawmakers to approve this sale of nearly 14,000 tank shells were thrown flee 100 and $6 million from the united states to israel. that move from the biden administration comes amid reports that civilians in the region have been killed with

american made weapons. last week, the washington post reported that the israi military used u. supplied white phosphorus in strikes it carried out in southern lebanon that killed nine civilians. an amnesty international reported the military used to u.s. guided missile equipment in airstrikes that left 43 civilians dead in a gaza city south of the evacuation line that israel had previously declared a safe zone. now, this kind of support from the united states to israel is not anything new. the united states has a long-standing strategic and military alliance with israel. since its founding 75 yrsgo, united states has contributed 130 billion dollars to israel's defense. as part of an agreement reached, the obama administration, israel received 3.8 billio dollars annually from american taxpayers. that makes israel the largest recipient of u.s. fore military financing. most of that asstae comes

in the form of weapons. according to an axios analysis between 1950 and 2022, the u.s. provided the israeli military with over 70,000 aircrafts. ground vehicles, missiles, bombs. you name it. but the u.s. support of israe does not just come in the form of money or weapons, it also comes in the form words. in some ways, the diplomatic support that ame has shown for israel is priceless. just look at what happened this week. the united nations security council's vote on an effort to bolster humanitarian access and aid delivery igaza was pushed back multiple times at the request of the united states. that is what a u.s. official familiar with negotiations told nbc news. on friday the long delay and sperately needed resolution that we are providing aid was filly approved. however, at the insistence of the united states, the final version of that measu did not demand an immediate truce,

omitting earlier language that would help insisted on the quote, urgent suspension of hostilities. although the united states helped craft that resolution, guess what? it's still abstained from the final vote. that public vote comes amid new reporting that the biden adnistration is working behind the scenes to block a bid for accountability in the region. huffpost is now reporting vested apartment officials are eparing to pressure switzerland to reject global calls for a conference on the va conventions violations in the israel war on gaza. according to state department documents seen by the outlet u.s. diplomats are finalizing a diplomatic initiative to their swiss counterparts that washington hopes will cause them to abandon plans for a meeting to discuss violations of international humanitarian law by both israel and hamas. now, experts say of such a conference were held, it would amount to a major international

signal about the gravity of what is actually occurri israel and gaza. so why would the united states reportedly blocks such a move? why object to that? an israeli international human rightsawyer who has been a guest on this show told us that has israel's chief foreign ally, the united states coso now come under scrutiny at that very same conference. quote, because america is supporting the israeli campaign, it will be affected by anything that charges israel with crimes or demands that israel adhere to something. so, it is clear, there is a cost that comes along with the united states seemingly unflinching military and diplomatic support for israel. and of course, we saw how that vote played out of the united states. the united states is planning a role in perpetuating a conflict that has consumed the region for decades. in a recent letter to president biden, senator bernie sanders

not only call out the administration over that sold support, but took things a step further. accusing the united states of aiding in what he calls the mass atrocity unfolding in gaza. writing the violence, quote, is being done with bombs and equipment produced and provided by the united states and heavily subsidized by american taxpayers. the senator pointedly remarked by saying quote, tragically, we are complicit in this carnage. this isn't just a feeling held by some at, home abroad, america's role is coming under question. here is a warning from robinson, former president of ireland and the former u.n. high commissioner for human rights. >> sometimes you have to speak truth to power and the truth is the united states is losing respect. losing credibility basically, as a powerful nation, even. it is looking weak.

we called for those with a power of restraining to the conditionality on the military aid to do it. that would be the united states in the united kingdom in particular. and, president biden actually bypassed congress to provide more military aid, there for the united states is increasing the complicit. >> when this war does come to an end, history will no doubt take a critical look at the united states involvement. and history will judge the united states accordingly. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. a force to be reckon with. no, not you saquon. hm? you! your business bank account with quickbooks money, now earns 5% apy. 5% apy? that's new! yup, that's how you business differently.

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cease-fire. that was president joe biden speaking earlier today about his call with the israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu. once again, saying clearly that he's not calling for a cease-fire. let's look at the u.s. role now in israel's assault on gaza with david, come next for the daily beast and host for the deep state podcast. he's also the author of american resistance, the inside story of how the deep state saved the nation. david, great to have you back on the show. let me start with your response to those comments that we heard just from the president earlier in this afternoon, why is president biden still not asking for a cease-fire, even as more members of his political party here are doing

so, political pressure in the united states is suggesting that he should, demanding that he should internationally, the international community, some of our closest allies is calling for, it france, the uk, how much more do you think that the u.s. can continue to resist calls for a cease-fire? >> you know, i don't know how much longer that they can resist it. we are nearing a breaking point in the relationship. the approach to president biden has been taking, that is team's been taking is since october 7th to show loyalty and support for israel. but to try to use that close relationship as a way to leverage the israelis into, perhaps positions different from what they would take, whether it was on humanitarian aid, or limiting the scope of the conflict, or with regard to what was going to happen after the conflict. unfortunately, on every single one of those u.s. initiatives,

israel has actively contradicted what the u.s. has wanted as actively undermining it, and often ignoring it. so, i think, you know, tension is growing in the relationship. the calculus is if we at least on the surface appear loyal, we will have more leverage than if we break with them. and i think at a certain point, you have to realize, that's not working. and it is time to put conditionality on the table, to draw aine, and to say no, no further. >> a few days ago you wrote a very interesting piece and the daily beast arguing that the biden administration's relationship with netanyahu's government, the prime minister of israel, has turned toxic. explain to us why their relationship has nearly reached that breaking point. >> it goes back to the prior

point i was making. the united states has from the beginning said that humanitarian issues are a priority. you have to avoid civilian casualty is. let's limit the scope of this conflict. and each one of those things has clearly been ignored. sometimes egregiously by the israeli government. the united states has said that we need israel not to be in charge of gaza when this is over. people from the government said no, we will be in charge. they've said when this is over we need the palestinian authority to be in charge. and people from israel have said no. now, there have been contradictory messages since then. but in each one of these cases, you've had the israeli government not acting like an ally, and because of the egregiousness of the behavior, shining a bad light on the united states, effectively penalizing the united states

for being an ally. >> does that surprise us? given the fact that before october 6th, what prime minister benjamin netanyahu was doing in israel had alarm bowl -- -- -- -- that the administration will even meet with him at the white house. but there was deep concern about the direction that israel was going in with his judicial reforms. that government has not fundamentally changed. why would the u.s. suddenly interest the same people that they were worried about taking israel off of a cliff before october 6th the democratically and changing the nature of that country's democracy to suddenly interesting them with making decisions about war and peace? >> i'm not sure anybody is suddenly interesting anybody. i think what happened this october 7th was a trauma unlike any israel has known. it was huge her if it day and the natural first response finalized to be supportive there. i, at the time, wrote that we

couldn't give israeli blank check. that conditionality had to be at the center of this thing and i think that the administration has been over backwards in that regard. and i think that it has gotten way out of hand. the damage the israelis have done in gaza is horrific. passing 20,000 as you say. 70% of them, women and children, 100,000 buildings destroyed, were damaged. effectively, the entire population of gaza, dislocated. and a humanitarian crisis turning into very likely a humanitarian catastrophe, with failing hospitals, hunger, and disease. and i think that even, now it is the time for a change in u.s. policy, and to send a clear message that we can't go on with the netanyahu administration, they are definitely a part of the problem. >> we have about 30 seconds

left, i'm sorry to be short, what do you think happens in the next few months in the u.s., israel relationship? and he fundamental changes? >> i think it might be a fundamental change of his real does not show a change of course, i think the united states is going to make conditionality at the center of it. i think you'll see a lot more pressure from political change within israel. it is unsustainable, as it is right now. >> all right david, thank you so much for joining us, greatly appreciate your time and we will definitely have you back on to continue this conversation. happy holidays to you, sir. >> happy holidays to you. >> thank you for tuning in tonight. i am a man in new york, happy holidays, have a great night. holidays, have a great night.

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