maybe it fell off a truck? maybe they heard that xfinity customers can save hundreds when they buy one unlimted line and get one free. now i can buy that electric scooter! i'm starting a private-equity fund that specializes in midcap. you do you. visit xfinitymobile.com today. amid big questions over donald trump's ballot eligibility, is there really any question that he engaged in insurrection? and if the court did not hold him accountable in 2020, four will voters hold him accountable at the ballot box. we're going to talk about that with former obama campaign

manager, jim messina and former rnc spokesperson tim miller. plus, our friend andrew weissmann joins me to dig into what the former president could do with the justice department if he wins back the white house. also today, a one-on-one conversation with the u.s. surgeon general. doctor vivek murthy thieves here to discuss loneliness, social media, and mental health around the holidays. and later, the exit interview. congresswoman anna eshoo as she was leaving congress after more than three decades. i will ask her what she learned and what concerns are most about what comes next. so it is the holiday season, the time for reflection, the chance to take stock of the year that is coming to a close, into really put this moment into perspective, and one of the things i'm thinking about right now, roughly ten months out from what might be the most

consequential election of our lifetime is how every poll, and even every election, is really a reflection of a moment in time. let me explain what i mean by that. if voters were to head to the polls tomorrow to vote in the 2024 general election, then the issues that would be front and center would be things like a lack of enthusiasm among young voters for president biden, and fears among democrats that people won't show up to the polls. the domestic impact of the war raging between israel and hamas. the threat of a second trump term to abortion rights, to democracy, to the rule of law. the fact that most americans feel the economy is getting worse, even as it's actually getting better, and despite what the data tells them, or the teflon like nature of donald trump, who is yet to be scarred by any of the ones against him. like when the state supreme court through his ballot eligibility in the question, raising big constitutional questions that have never been asked or answered before, and yet his allies and rivals alike still

largely rushed to his defense. but voters will of course not head to the polls tomorrow, it is christmas. they will in ten months, and ten months is a long time from now. remember, back in the 2008 election, the iraq war international security dominate the headlines for months, then the stock market crashed, and the economy was far and away the most driving issue that fall. i mean, examples show that it dominated voters concerns at historic levels. and let me tell, you i was working on the obama campaign for the whole time. the prediction, that never would have been the prediction ten months in advance. for all of that in 2020, when covid 19 completely upended the presidential election. ten months out, they had yet to be a single diagnosed case in the united states. so previous elections have certainly taught us that there can be issues that we're not at all on the radar that became dominant on election day. issues the bubble up late and change the course of history. so as we have a brief pause now for the holidays, it is worth taking a moment to consider, what issues are people not talking about, or they haven't even happened yet? they could win the electorate as we look ahead to the next ten months? joining me

now are the perfect people to answer that exact question. jim marceno is the campaign manager for barack obama's 2012 election campaign, and tim miller is the editor at large for the bulwark and former communications director for jeb bush 2016 campaign. so jim, about you both down memory lane there little bit, but you have both a lot of presidential works in campaigns and i want to start with you. i, mean obama, you are the manager of obama's reelection campaign. what is on your mind right now that democrats are not talking about that they should be. let me start there. yeah, thanks jen. this is a nice psychological session to talk about all of those things. and they shouldn't be, but there things that really concern, me and the biggest thing is the possibility of a third party. these third-party ballots, jen, you know these numbers. we win arizona by 11,000 votes, we win

georgia by 10,000 votes in the midwest states, they were super close, and we just cannot peel off voters in these numbers. some of the numbers are really scary, and i think people flirting with third-party ballots don't understand that they are playing exactly into donald trump's hands here. that is one of the things that keeps me up at night. you know it doesn't keep me up at night, jen? the polls. if you are my mom or my mother-in-law calling me every day about the polls, you know, everyone need to take a deep breath and realize that joe biden has led or been tied in 15 recent national polls, including leading in ten of them. so you and i at the biggest believers that pulling this far out does not matter at all, it's let's worry about things that we can actually control like third party ballot access. >> yeah, that's a good

one, and predictions are so addictive, but it's all about a moment time. so tim, let me bring the same questions to you. what should people be talking about more that they aren't and what should they be freaking out about less? >> and we're not going to have a stock market crash or a pandemic going down the pike. >> i want a little dark there, but it's important to remember. >> think about the bad things that are going to happen! freaking out a little bit there. look, you mentioned some of the young voters. i think that this is over baked right now. i think there's plenty to worry about, particularly if you care deeply about the region, there's a lot of tragedy happened and israel and gaza right now, but the

idea that this is going to be top of mind issue next november, i think is really quite unlikely, and i think that a lot of these young voters have not even really engage about what donald trump's policies look like. there i think i agree with jim. a third party candidate running on some anti-war platform directly appeals to young voters is more concerning to if there is a two-way. i will put my hat on as a former republican, the growth of people and thinking a lot about. i think they're a lot of conversations right now about whether nikki haley can make a surge in new hampshire, and whether republican primary can be up ended. i think that's not going to happen. the republican primary is over, but i do think that one thing that people aren't talking about is that i don't think there's any reason that nikki haley is going to do the right thing and a post on trump next year, but

some of the people to vote for them in this primary very well might, and what could democrats do, look at the biden campaign do to try to pull off maybe 20% of the people that pulled out from nikki haley in the next few months? those are gettable voters, and a lot of folks aren't thinking about that because they're thinking about them in the context of the republican primary right now. so maybe the halle vote, let me take what time just said right there, and for you jim messina, your big advocate for president biden being reelected for the campaign, but what is the one thing, this is all a game, not again, but a former therapy for you and not so much politics and what do you think they were doing in january? was it going after that haley vote? is it something else? >> it's going straight donald trump and driving the change, driving the message, driving the contrast between candidates. jim, you and i went through this in 2012. rock obama had to talk about his record and say, this is what i have done. that's exactly what joe biden is doing. we were behind in the polls the whole time until we drove a contrast with mitt romney. the minute that we drove that contrast, we started moving in the polls. and so my beginning of the year which is a straight contrast between donald trump and joe biden. tim is really right about one thing. joe biden is going to be the nominee, and voters haven't figure that out yet, but that oh, we want different candidates. we are where we are, and we're going to do straight biden versus trump ballot, and

the more the biden campaign can drive, that the better their poll numbers will be. >> so tim, you and i have talked before on the show, on your podcast, that your frustration the democrats don't seem to sing off of the same song sheet. jim messina and i can tell you that it's a big umbrella party, that's not always how it works. but is that the thing you wish democrats were doing more, and if so, what do you think as somebody who has worked in republican politics for so long. is the effective message that you would like to hear them to kind of win over some of those swing voters or moderate republicans who aren't going to support trump? >> i would like to see somebody out there banging the hammer. maybe messina can do it. i think that's not his nature. that's why we like joe biden, that is why he was elected, because he was going to unite the country. he could do somebody out there driving this contrast for him, that is one thing i'd like to see from the democrats next year. and i discussed the haley vote. i think that this is one, how can we bring some of these new ex republicans off the

sidelines. i'm kind of burned, here but can we win over mike pence may be to not vote, not vote for trump? or chris christie? who can be recruited to be a surrogate from that world. and i also think that reaching out to the blue collar obama trump voters, this gets lost a lot of time in the conversation. i think you can feel some of those pokes back on the abortion issue. whenever people talk about abortion, it's always about -- women and young voters. it could also work with some of these non-college men that are not ready to be dads, yet and i think that really trying to drive that message and trump's margin down there is another thing i like to see how democrats next year. >> and just peeling off of that, and again far away, but what would be the biggest driver to help president biden. do you still think it is abortion and abortion rights? as a democracy, is it a combination? is it something else? >> i think it's abortion, and the voters that time was just talking about, i

am obsessed with these obama trump voters, and when you look at how to peel them off, especially in the three midwestern states, it really is abortion. it really is for the first time in modern memory, the republican party is taking away a fundamental right from voters, in the palpable anger about that, i think people like gretchen whitmer have had amazing messages about this, tying the economy to this issue as well. it's not just about abortion. it is an economic choice, and i think driving that in the midwest would be the one thing that we have got to do, because i think if you look at both women in swing voters in these younger man, who i take it splitting, they both are movable on this issue. >> so tim, that is interesting, and gretchen whitmer also talks about it on a personal level, which i think is such a good lesson in the kate cox story as well. so tim, we just saw this ruling in colorado this week disqualifying trump in the ballot in the state. but

there's going to be of course a lot of focus on what the courts will do, but just on the politics, you are not a lawyer that i am tracking. but how do you think this affects trump in the long run? they are already trying to with this up. what do you think the best kind of argument is for the biden campaign, for their efforts to with this up on the trump side. >> the everything lights trump narrative, i think in the short-term, it clearly does help him in the primary. this rallying around the orange man defense that happens among the republican base, but the primary is already over in my estimation, and side of that matters that much. but what about the swing herbs that we've been talking about? how can democrats and how can never trumpers and how can we reach these voters and make the case

to them that, okay, whatever you think about a ruling in the colorado supreme court, do we really want india to be president's been indicted in four different or stations that might be disqualified because he attempted insurrection? i mean we talked about january six, we talk about the stuff every day here. a lot of the swing voters haven't been thinking about january six this much, and so i think that trying to peel off an additional percentage, a lot of these folks already moved, but it in additional percent of the college educated swing vote by talking about this issue is meaningful. >> jim messina, tim miller, u. s. given up a lot to think about, jamal over during the holiday season. maybe some direction for next year. i think you both so much for joining me this afternoon. and coming up next, new concerns about trump's plan if he takes back the white house. andrew weissmann joins me to talk about what he could do with the justice department specifically. trump that is. we are back after a quick break. long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. now when i have people over, hiv pills aren't on my mind. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or if you're taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva.

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pretty familiar with the numerous critical cases facing donald trump, and we will continue following all of them. but what is also important to follow is what donald trump plans to do if he takes back the white house. trump has

vowed to use the justice department to quote, go after joe biden, and basically anyone else who he perceives as a political enemy. and it's not just rhetoric. there are plans being made right now to carry out trump's wishes. project 2025 is a group of right-wing think tanks that have gathered together to draft executive orders that trump would sign immediately after taking office. among them, invoking the insurrection act, which would authorize him to deploy the military to essentially serve as long parliament and put down any protest against him. it's pretty chilling stuff. when you consider a trump doj would essentially be used to enforce the dictatorial rhetoric we're hearing from him more and more on the campaign trail. joining me now is andrew weissmann, he's the former general counsel of the fbi and a senior member of special counsel robert mueller's team. you are also special. andrew, thank you so much for joining

me. [laughter] i think it is so important for people to think about how this would actually work, because you hear so much rhetoric, but you worked in the department of justice. you're very familiar with what can happen there. so when we envision trump being back in the white house, which i know it's hard to put our minds there, but for a moment, how exactly could he direct the doj to go after people he perceives to be his enemies. >> this is such an important topic for people to really focus on what is going to happen, not what could happen, but what is going to happen. and the way that i look at it is let's look at what he did when he was the president. so first, if you are thinking that they are going to be investigations into corruption within his administration, that is a nonstarter. why? because he is not going to be appointing anyone like special counsel mueller. he's not going to have investigations into his own administration, and as we know from what he did when he was president, he is not going to cooperate with any congressional investigation. he's just going to strong-arm those and not comply with subpoenas. so that is one thing that is sort of off the table.

and there is the question of how he is going to weaponize doj to go after enemies, and i think a really good thing to look at if you would like to see a data point for what he's going to do, look at john durham. john durham brought two separate critical cases where he managed to get 24 jurors to unanimously agree that he did not prove his case. there was not a single holdout. but what did that mean? those people were subjected to that criminal prosecution and had to go through the investigation, and all of that hardship, to vindicate their names. that can happen over and over again. if you think john durham was a real injustice, that is really the tip of the iceberg of what we can expect under a new department of justice headed up by donald trump and in attorney general according to him. >> now you mentioned in attorney general. typically, as i think most people know, and attorney general would be nominated, would have to be confirmed by the senate, but one of the things that liz cheney talks

about her book, and has talked about sense, is this possibility or plan that he could nominate people he knows aren't going to be confirmed and then appoint them as acting, which means that they can't serve as long, but what would that potentially mean. you have an acting attorney general who is a political appointee of trump's. what could they do? >> so it is important to remember that we don't know what the senate will look like either. so there could actually be people like jeff clark or sidney powell or rudy giuliani who are confirmed. but if you have somebody who is there as

an acting one, there are beholden to the president. that is why i think you saw so many acting positions under donald trump when he was president, and they can do exactly what a official confirmed person can do. there is no difference in terms of their powers, but it does allow essentially a circumvention of those senate confirmation process for a time period, but you can just keep cycling through these people. and also remember that donald trump has talked about getting rid of the civil service so that the so-called deep state, his view is that those people should -- who are adhering to their oaths of office should simply be eradicated. >> this is very obvious, but i never thought how he could just cycle people through, even if they're a time limit of serving runs up. the other piece, i know you've talked about this, i've talked about, this is part in

power. there are certain historic traditions, but they're not legal limitations that people might think that there are in the law. how concerned are you about trump using pardon power to reward people who might help him, might break the law to help him. there aren't the checks in the system needed as we think about it. >> well the pardon power is one where you really see a flaw on the way that the constitution was written, because i think they didn't imagine an executive who would use that power to essentially encourage crimes and say, if you do this coming for me, i will then pardon you. it really is the monopoly, get out of jail free card, and trump has talked about using that. he is already, at the end of his administration, given pardons that make these, what happened to bill clinton at the end of his administration, pale in comparison because of the close connections in terms of his own criminal liability, that is donald trump's criminal liability, and using it to thwart people who might cooperate and give up information about him. >> would

it mean to scare people on christmas eve, but we do think it's so important for people to understand all of these pieces. thank you for all the hours you spent this year answering all of our questions on this show and so many other shows. we know that there's a nice holiday as well, and something tells me we will have a lot more to talk about in 2024. thank you again, andrew. and congresswoman -- exit interviews coming up. i will ask about her career, her regrets, and a former speaker is one of her close friends and we will be back after a quick break.

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as the year of the woman. erekat number of women won

seats about the house and the senate. here's what the washington post wrote right after that election. they took their inspiration from anita hill, saw their opportunity in an electorate hungry for change, and cast themselves as outsiders in the year when outsiders could be fashionable. and it worked. fast forward to today in nearly 30% of congress is made up of women, which is the highest percentage in u.s. history, but a number of the

women who are currently serving in congress have announced that they are retiring in the coming year, including congresswoman anna eshoo of california. she has been in congress since the year of a woman, and during her more than three decades of washington, she has introduced more than 60 bills that have become law. joining me now for her exit interview is congresswoman anna eshoo of california. congresswoman, it's great to be talking with you, and congratulations on your incredible career to date. so i want to have a moment of light because it is so dark in our politics right now. you have shattered so many glass feelings yourself, and now, as i mentioned, they're more women in congress than ever before. that is a good thing. other other things in congress that a

change for the better since you have been in washington? >> i think that with a small d, it is far more democratic. when i entered the congress, you knew that you were to be rather quiet and pay attention to the elders. there were a lot more -- i think to the caucus. it is more freewheeling now on the democratic side. a lot more opportunity, a lot more minorities and women in the caucus. so it has changed, and i think it has changed for the better. >> that is a good note of light in a dark time. >> it is. >> it is, we have to have those two, right? >> california 16th district, which you represent, is the birthplace of silicon valley. you have not been afraid to push for accountability for big tech, which i think is really impressive given what you represent. he recently told the washington post that congress did not see the perils of the internet 30 years ago, and quote, how especially social media would be used for misinformation, disinformation, and what young children are exposed to. what do you wish could be done either to put the

toothpaste back in the two, which maybe is impossible, but when it comes to big tech and the impact that it has had on the country and the world really. >> i think we made a mistake many, many years ago. i understand what we were thinking and why we did what we did at the time because the internet was really nascent then. and so we granted the companies and what is known as section 230 at the telecommunications act that they were not going to be liable for anything, and that was a mistake. that was a mistake. and as you said, it is very difficult. you can't get the genie back in the bottle. it is a struggle to change that now. but there really needs to be accountability. and we have seen that with many american industries. american automobile industry is an industry that we are also proud of. but there is had to be accountability in terms of safety measures and others with them. that needs to be brought to the technology industry, and i don't think that it's going to slow them down in terms of their innovation. i really don't. i think they are here to stay, and i'm proud of all of the positives that the industry has brought about, but there are areas that are harmful. they should be and they can be addressed. >> i think a lot of people would agree with you on both sides of the aisle, which is sort of an interesting development of the past couple of years. the washington post, also asked recently what your biggest tech regret was, and you had a really interesting answer. he talked about the failure to strike an agreement on comprehensive immigration reform. why is that something,

i think that is something that is on the minds of so many people in this country, so many people in the democratic party, but more broadly, i was that your answer to the question? >> first of all, we would not be the nation that we are without being a immigrant nation, and immigrants play a very important role in the technology industry. so many come to the united states to be educated here. we have the finest colleges and universities. certainly stanford university, which is the geographic center of my district, but once they're educated, if they can't get a green card, they have to leave, and so immigration is really part of the threshold, the entrance to the industry. the

industry depends on immigration as well. so that, i think they were surprised when interviewed me, and that that was my answer. >> i was, too. i just thought it was such an interesting answer, it was very thought-provoking. before i let you go, i want to ask you, nancy pelosi is one of your closest friends and congress. we have had the pleasure of having her on the show a couple of times. what is the one thing that people do not know about her? >> oh, how very sweet she is. how very sweet, and that she has the best giggle in the world. a great sense of humor. >> that is a good one. very sweet, and seeing how tough she has, i think that will warm up peoples hearts. congresswoman anna eshoo, thank you for your service, thank you for breaking all the barriers you did. it was a pleasure talking to you this afternoon. >> thank you jen very much, and to you as well, very proud of you. >> coming up next, the loneliness

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>> > when we think of the holiday season, we think of time with family, we think of themes like joy, gratitude, and reflection, love for so many americans this time of the year can also trigger feelings of depression, sadness, or grief. it can ultimately be a very lonely time. in fact, in recent survey, 61% of respondents say they expected to experience feelings of loneliness or sadness this holiday season. these feelings are generally a hard thing for a lot of people to open up about and talk about, but this year we have seen a shift in the conversation around loneliness. more prominent voices are speaking out about the so-called epidemic of loneliness we are seeing across the country. one of them is u. s. surgeon general dr. vivek murthy, who has spent much of the year sounding the alarm on this exact issue. and his advisory this, year he deemed it an urgent public health issue that can increase the risk of premature death. he laid out a

national strategy to tackle it. joining me now to talk more about this is the u. s. surgeon general dr. vivek murthy. my friend, it's very good to see you here, and i would just say that when i first read this op-ed, and many people, friends and family, i want to talk to you so much about this. it really sparked something in so many people, and i just re-read, it and i want to add to point out a part of it that really stuck out to me. you said, quote, i largely neglected my friendships during my tenure, convincing myself, this was my term during the obama administration, committing myself that i had to focus on work and i could do both. after my job ended, i felt ashamed to reach out to friends that i have ignored. i found myself increasingly lonely and isolated, they felt as if i was the only one who felt that way. loneliness like depression can of course, with which you can be associated, can chip away at yourself a steam and a your sense of who you are. that's what happened to me. i will show the op-ed so people can see it on social channels, but that struck me so much because i think people relate to that. i certainly did, and don't talk about it. you wrote that back in the spring, but how is that changed you? >> well jen, i'm so glad we're talking about this, because i

think that the experience of loneliness is an incredibly common one. so many people of all ages experience loneliness, but we don't talk about it because we feel a sense of shame. somehow we feel if we are lonely, that means that we are not likable, we are not lovable, something is wrong with us inside. that is how i felt as a kid when i first struggled with loneliness years ago, and i never told my parents, even i knew that they love me dearly, but i experienced it as an adult to. talking about this openly has allowed me to do, digging into it and understanding the issue from a scientific perspective is helping me understand that a lot of us feel this way. one into adults in america struggle with loneliness, and the numbers are even higher among young people. it also helps us realize that, to really address, it we have to make building social connection a priority in our lives and in society more broadly. right now we live work centered live. i think we have to do is shift to people-centered lives, be healthy, and fulfilled. >> you're giving people thanks to strive for in the new year. holidays can be especially in isolating time, and i think that this pressure not to talk about loneliness is really reflected for so many people during the holiday season. you

launched the five for five connection challenge, which basically calls on americans to take five actions to build more connections in their lives. it feels so simple, which is why it stuck out to me. tell us a little bit about what is a simple step. people watching right now who are one of the great percentage of people feeling lonely, they're worried about the holiday season, what did they do? >> this is the good news. simple steps can make a big difference in how connected we feel. so here are some things you can consider doing after the holidays and building into your life in the new year. the number one is just to recognize, if you are feeling lonely and isolated, i want you to know that you are not the only one. there are many people who are struggling with us. the second thing is to recognize that just spending 15 minutes today reaching out to people we care

about can be sending a message to an old friend, they could be calling your mother or your sibling. these can make a huge difference and how connected you feel overtime, but the thing is to realize that when we help other people, turns up that helps us feel more connected. service is into though to loneliness, and service could be helping a coworker who is struggling on a rough day. it could be checking and on a friend who just lost a loved one. it could be checking on a neighbor who you know is struggling by themself. these small things can make a big difference. if we pull them into our day today lives, they can help us rebuild the social fabric of our lives. >> and what about, there are moments in between those 15 minutes. even if you do the 15 minutes twice a day, what are the things that you would encourage people from your own life, or just your experience as a doctor, that you would encourage people to do? >> this is something actually i recently encourage colleagues to do on a national college campus career that i did, and it was an eye-opening to our, by the way. one of the universe and i went to -- university with tens of thousands of students said that they surveyed their students before we came and that 80% of them said that they were in need of

more social connection in their life. another university said that more than 90% of the students who are going to the mental health clinics were saying that loneliness and isolation or key reasons why they were coming in. so one of the things that we asked people to do was our five for five challenge, and this was a very simple thing where we said, for the next five days, we want you to make one active connection a day, and i could be expressing gratitude to someone. it could be extending support to someone, or could be asking for help yourself, and this could just take 30 seconds to 60 seconds to do. in fact, we do it in the room with students right there, but it could be a powerful way in between our day to feel connected. this morning, for example, i got up and i had a few minutes before my kids woke up and i just sat there for a couple of minutes and i thought about some people in my life that i was grateful for, and it was just a reminder to me that sometimes we are more connected than we think. those moments of gratitude can remind us that there are people who love us and our life, and that we are deserving of that love, and that can make us feel less

lonely. >> that is such an important reminder, it doesn't have to be hours of a day. it can be something that can change the course of how you are feeling. so the flip side of this is sort of what people should avoid, and you and i when we were serving together, you put out a report on the threats of social media, and so that might be the answer, but what should people avoid if they are feeling lonely in this holiday season, they are worried about anxiety, about grief, kind of taking over for them? >> and i sympathize with this. just the other day actually got a call from a dear friend who was my best friend and middle school whose mother suddenly passed away, and she's deeply worried that she's going to feel especially isolated and alone over the holidays. so i know that this is a worry for many people, but here is what i would encourage you to think if those feelings of loneliness creep in. i would encourage you to remember that when you feel lonely sometimes you almost feel like withdrawing further from people. resist that instinct and just remember, in

instinct and just remember, in that moment, asking for help from a friend, from a family member is okay to do, and in fact, when we reach out to other people, we don't just tell them that we need help, but we often may open the door for conversation that they really need as well, recognizing that so many of our friends are also struggling with a sense of loneliness and isolation and lastly, i just want people to know that prioritizing relationships in this way and making time for people each and every day is not just a nice to have, but it is necessary for your health and well-being. we have found, the recent visor issued unholiness, that when people struggled with this feeling of being lonely and disconnected, that overtime, it takes a toll on their health, raising the risk of depression and anxiety, but also raising the risk of heart disease and premature death and dementia. so it is important for all of us to stay connected to one another, and it's not a luxury, is something that we should be investing are timon, and it's something that we should also be building in

our schools and workplaces around, because as a soft society level, when we lack connection with one another, kids don't learn as well. people don't perform as well in the workplace. folks are more prone to polarization and division and society, and so our connections matter as individuals and as a society. >> > such an important, remember it's such an important thing to remember in terms of how we are getting in teaching our children. >> it is. >> so thank you for joining, me and we are going to share your op-ed and all of these incredible pieces of guidance that you are offering out there. >> i so appreciate, that jen. one more quick thing is just, when it comes to technology, this is a double edged sword for us sometimes, and i would just encourage people to also recognize that time on social media doesn't always mean that we are fostering greater connection to others. in fact, often, our time on social media can substitute for what should be in person time. it can dilute the quality of our connections with one another. and so if you can often take a few minutes away from technology and instead spend

that in person with someone, or pick up the phone and call a friend to check on them, just five minutes that each day will make a big difference and how you feel. >> such an important and don, dr. vivek murphy, thank you so much, and we will be right back.

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>> > you may know him from the show queer eye, bobby it's berk one of the fab five that helped change the lives of people across the country. in november, he announced he would be leaving the show after an upcoming a season. and a new book out is one that explores home design, organization, and even mental health. i have the opportunity they sit down with him recently to talk about the new book, his upbringing, and why he sees our homes as such an important part of how we live. >> so you have this amazing book. i have read the entire thing, and what i learned from here is a lot about your childhood and how you really got started. so your first realization is that it was only five or six years old? >> five or six years old, it was my bedroom that my mom had decorated allred, and i could not articulate that he gave me anxiety, but there is something

about red curtain, red rugs, red pillows, red fire trucks, that was a thing. fire engine red. it just didn't -- >> pretty common for a five-year-old. >> five-year-old, boy and missouri, and it was not zen. it's not relaxed me, and so i saved up all of my little birthday checks, 20 dollar checks for my aunts and uncles and grandparents, and i went out and i talked my mom into letting me buy a new bedspread and curtains and drug, and it was all in shades of blue. and so even as a child, i did not understand the power of it, but subconsciously, i understood, i did not know why i was doing, it but understood the changing my space made me feel better, and changing the colors that surrounded me for me, somebody struggles with anxiety, made me feel better, and so this book i think has kind of been a lifetime coming. >> as a, teenager you talk about your book too, you slept in your car and you spent a period of time where you didn't exactly have a home that you went home to every day.

>> yeah, yeah. >> how did that impact your future and your life and career as a designer? >> you know, i think as a designer, it really impacted the way that i feel about hope. i don't think of home as someplace that needs to be pretty. home it's someplace that makes me feel safe, because for a while, i did not have that feeling of safety, and so there was a couple pages in the book, it was a workbook, and it literally has a little blink for you to fill in, and one of them is the last time i felt safe was, or the last thing that made me feel safe was something that really cultivates a sense of safety, because i really want you to start thinking about the way your space makes you feel and not just the way that it looks. >> it really struck, me to that point, he talked about how everyone's home should be their own mental wellness gif and i love that phrase. what do you mean by that exactly? >> so your home should be something that really recharges you. if you want to think of it as your phone charger, if you

don't plug your phone in that night, forget to plug it in, or if that court has a short emmitt, your phone doesn't make it through the day. it goes good but. >> that is stressful. >> yeah, it is stressful, but at the same for you, and your humble needs to be a place that fills up your cut, that really charges your battery, and the way to do that is not making it look like some magazine or making it look like the way i should tell you. that is the whole point of this book is democratizing design and helping you realize that it's not about what anybody else tells you, it's about the way your home makes you feel and only you know those feelings. >> a theme in this book, which might surprise people unless they read it, there's a mental health. happiness, cluttering and the impact of that. why did you think that talking about mental health in terms of design was so important? >> i think that mental health has obviously been stigmatized for years. if you have a physical ailment, -- if it's a mental illness for some reason, that could be seen as a weakness. so often it is just

not talked about. so this phrase, it starts at home. it really does start at home, and it starts at home with the way your home looks, the way your home feels, and the organization of the matter, and even mental health wise with sleeping, there's a whole chapter on air about prepping your room in your space and your home for better sleep if you're having problems with sleeping. so it was really important to me to help people think about the correlation between mental health and design. >> we are sitting here in washington d. c., we can literally see the capitol where it is a city addicted to busy, which many cities are. it is not the only one, and a lot of people would say, i don't have time for this, and i'm so stressed out, and they have so many things on my plate, and so what is the argument for five minutes of decluttering or organizing? what is the right amount of time? >> i feel like in a city like this, where you are always on the go, and you are almost chastised for taking time for yourself, i feel like those

spots and moments are even more important. take those few moments to make sure that your home is a mental health sanctuary. >> even if you are a member of congress, working on a political campaign, supreme court justices, you all have time. >> not that everybody's mental health as an important, isn't important, but especially people who have severely mentally taxing jobs like that that really need to be able to focus on the problems at hand. they need to think about these things more than anyone i would say. >> bobby berk, it is always a pleasure. >> such a thoughtful conversation with bobby berk. i'm grateful for his time. his new book is right at home, how good design is good for the mind. i will be right back after a quick break.

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wish everyone a happy holiday season with friends and family. for now, stay where you are, there's much more news coming up on msnbc. up on msnbc. tonight, on the many has ontario. our most memorable moment of 2023. this hour, we're look back on the start of the israel-hamas war, and donald trump's unprecedented for indictments, and the words of the late great truth teller, daniel