rockefeller tree is still up. do you take it down a new? years to give it a week? two weeks? let me know on ari melber social media. on any social media use. we have x, instagram, facebook, tiktok, other will be farther to comment there. i guess you could comment on a video. but when do you think it is time to take a christmas tree down? you can contact connect with me, there are remembered of calm. i shared some memories of my dad's birthday and our visit to the biden white house. put in your email and you could become a free subscriber to my newsletter or just meet me back here tomorrow. the readout with charles coleman filling in is next. coleman filling in is next >> >> tonight, on the readout. >> i quite frankly i'm going to tell you that i think it was one of the most pathetic christmas greetings i have

heard when the former president united states, and wants to return, tells people on christmas day that they can rot in hell. >> just as congresswoman debbie dingell says, trump's rot in hell christmas mers it was, to say the least, unpresidential. special counsel jack smith is filing a new motion to block trump for making political arguments during his criminal trial. also tonight, michigan supreme court decides against removing trump from the 2024 ballot, unlike colorado's highest court and now extra security is needed for those justices. plus, the republicans all out assault on voting rights, which includes plans to ask the u.s. supreme court to preserve their undemocratically gerrymandered maps in wisconsin. good evening. and charles coleman, in for joy reid, and we have got a lot to talk about. we begin tonight with a new

year faster protesting, many looking head to 2024 and wondering what else could be in store. that certainly appears to be the case for former president donald trump, who we do not spread peace and joy but rather lashed out at a flood of social media posts focused on his perilous legal year ahead. and perhaps he is understanding that he might not be able to escape the consequences for his alleged criminal activities. while lashing out on social media is not something new for trump, this holiday temper tantrum involved a christmas day greeting for his perceived enemies that included, a statement may they rot in hell. what a grinch. this is also a special shout out that was directed toward special counsel jack smith, noting that smith should, quote, unquote, go to hell. because nothing says i'm getting into the holiday spirit like wishing eternal damnation on others. i've gotten a lot of christmas messages myself over the

holiday years, but nothing that extended into the afterlife. still, there's good reason for trump to feel the pressure and act out like a petulant child. while he has been focused on defending himself in the public arena, and trying to make this all about politics, smith and his team have been doing the diligent legwork to focus on the facts, the evidence, and a lot. me >> some depositions that have gone deep and i've talked to people who are participated in this investigation's lawyers, sometimes even as witnesses, and it is evident to me based on my conversations with sources that jack smith has a sprawling case against former president donald trump. >> it's important for us to remember that for as much as we know about the evidence that smith has presented publicly, there is likely a mountain of additional evidence that has not yet been shared. what does that mean? it means that as these trials develop, the situation for donald trump could get a whole lot worse.

trump is going to do what he has always done. he's going to claim it's all a set up by the president, by the democrats, by the left, by the bogeyman, by the deep state, and anyone else who disagrees with him. take a listen. >> since biden got in, he has been weaponizing government against his political opponents like a raging third world tyrant. >> it's no wonder could joe biden and the far left lunatics are trying to stop us by any means possible. they're weaponizing lie enforcement because we're beating them so badly in the polls. >> we've heard all of that, and the finger-pointing, and everything else. but it's really important to remember that by and large the evidence that we already know that has not come out, it has not been from the democrats or from the deep state or from president biden. it has been from fellow republicans and those who were

in the room or. those who were in trump's administration, some of which include, for example, his own former vice president. while trump's federal election interference case has been put on hold, as a federal appeals court, his immunity defense, none of that has stopped jack smith from continuing to prepare for trial. just this morning smith filed a motion to block trump from making political arguments and referring to conspiracy theories during a trial. saying, in part, quote, the court should not permit the defendant to turn the courtroom into a forum in which he propagates irrelevant disinformation, and should reject his attempt to inject politics into this proceeding. and quote. joining me now to discuss all of this, is glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor, msnbc legal analyst and host of the justice matters podcast, as well as david jolly, former republican congress men, my apologies, who is no longer affiliated with the party. and barbara mcquade, former

u.s. attorney, professor at the university of michigan law school and an msnbc legal analyst. thank you all for being here. i just want to get started. david, we've talked a number of times. your reaction to these go to hell christmas messages from donald trump. are we seeing someone who is just unhinged? or is this more about him feeling the pressure of what is coming and people may be telling him the truth about what he can expect to happen? >> charles, good to be with you. my takeaway is the old man is afraid of prison. when he gets it his back against the wall, we see him lash out. but much like he did on thanksgiving, he name checks prosecutors who in some ways are holding his freedom in jeopardy, in the balance here as they are presenting their case in front of the judges. he thanksgiving he went after laetitia james, who has donald trump's personal fortunes on the line. he's going after jack smith now. i think we're seeing trump and his back against the wall. is there danger in that?

sure. we can talk about the fact that our christmas he right go to hell, so maybe you truly has lost it. but it does give us cause for danger and concern. he is currently an economic with joe biden. some polls have him ahead. this is an indicator when he says that he is running for retribution that he will do what he says he's going to do. what would he do today if he was in office with the power to use the department of justice for his own means? i think we know where his frame of mind is. we know what his intent is. if -- mar-a-lago >>, your lawyer here. what are you gleaning from what jack smith is basically saying in this latest filing about the evidence he has? we know we're in discovery now. i want to read a quote from the filing. let me know if you think about it. the government anticipates calling witnesses was knowledge of information protected by certain privileges, including

the attorney client privilege and the speech or debate privilege. i don't know about you, but that last part, the speech and debate part, let me know that there are particular witnesses that are going to show up on that list that this applies to and that should worry donald trump. what do you read into that? >> same thing, charles. this clause only applies to one class of people, and that his members of congress and their staffs. and so to say that we want to preclude any argument that might confuse the jury involving the speech or debate clause says to me that jack smith is planning to call as witnesses either one or more members of congress or staffers. that is very interesting testimony because we haven't really thought about it before. we didn't see it before the january six committee. it may be that someone is cooperating though not necessarily. he could put someone on the witness list even though they are not cooperative or part of a plea deal.

it's just at least one member of congress on jack smith's witness list. >> even if that might be the case, just because you appear on a witness list does not mean that the government has to call you. it means they can. the preserving the right. but nonetheless this is pretty exclusive language we're seeing is part of this filing. glenn, talk to me about the balance between what it is, for example, with jeff smith's request that we don't want this to be littered with difficult political speech. when you're talking about, at its core, an offense in a fact pattern that inherently involves different degrees of politics. how is the court going to strike the appropriate balance in not necessarily making this a circus, and jack smith is trying, but also not infringing on what donald trump has is anyone else was a criminal defendant? >> a great question. this is an unusual trial, an

unusual set of facts and circumstances. motions, just a fancy way to say we're trying to limit to the other side as to what they can and cannot present by way of evidence, what they can and can't argue to the jury. motions in limine like this are pretty routine. ordinarily the parties kind of know what they can and can't argue what inbounds in what is out of bounds and that typically goes for prosecutors and defense attorneys. but it's pretty clear that jack smith wants to be the defense team to be our notice of a laundry list of categories that he believes are out of bounds and he wants judge chutkan to rule the day are out of bounds. you can't ask a jury to decide issues or to decide guilt or innocence based on passion, based on prejudice, based on politics. i'll give you a simple example. somebody can't put up a defense that says, well, i may have committed the crimes, couldn't

find convicted and sent to prison my children will become orphans. that will play on the sympathies of the jurors foot it is absolutely an inappropriate argument to make. jack smith is trying to cut off all inappropriate arguments based on politics, based on passion, based on immunity, based on selective prosecution. these are legal issues for the court to resolve. these are not the kind of things that jurors get to hear about. >> glenn, i want to follow up with you. 11,780. you've heard this over and over again. that number, that call to raffensperger, donald trump continues to push this notion of immunity. he is using even the evidence in the call itself to georgia state secretary raffensperger, i just need to find 11,780 votes, as evidence of, look, i did nothing wrong. is this immunity argument, and

you just talked about appropriate arguments, is this immunity argument going anywhere? >> no. the immunity argument is going precisely nowhere. judge chutkan ruled that a president is not absolutely immune from being prosecuted for crimes he commits while in office. i anticipate that the d.c. federal circuit of appeals will roll the same way. i think the most interesting question is, will the supreme court that claim by donald trump when there really is no legal support for it? there is no statute, there's no precedent, and there's no constitutional provision that says a president can commit any and all crimes he wants with impunity. frankly, if the supreme court buys into that, then the president could commit any number of crimes against the supreme court while in office to sort of marginalized their power. i don't see any of that happening. >> david, let's talk social

media. donald trump has basically been a nightmare. we already know this. there was a daily mail poll that recently asked 1000 likely voters what word they would use to describe donald trump. and -- was astonishing. you had things like power, revenge, dictator, dictatorship, success, america, corruption. what do you make of this in terms of the larger narrative, as we are just now inside one month from the iowa caucuses? >> i think are political community, if you will, is kind of running on a parallel track with our cultural and civic community and they are about to run into each other by november. what i mean by that is i don't know that we are ready for a national defining moment we are

about to, face the cultural moment we are about to face. we have discussed thus far tonight donald trump's ethos, but he's also the front runner for the republican party. there doesn't appear to be a political penalty for that type of behavior. if anything, there is a reward within republican politics. those hard legal conversations were having, suppose he's convicted in the jack smith case ahead of the november election and either wins or loses and refuses to accept defeat. or suppose i agree with glenn and i'm sure marked as as well, the immunity claim could not possibly be upheld. but suppose the supreme court, the 63 majority finds a way to uphold some type of crazy claim by the president throughout this process. there is a world in which this country just fractures and breaks. the terms that appear in that heat map you just mentioned suggests toxicity not within our politics but within our culture. we are resilient, we can get through this. but only if we try very hard to do so. >> it certainly appears a lot

of folks who were polled with respect to their opinions truly understand exactly who donald trump is. our distinguished panel staying with us. stay tuned because right up next after the break, the michigan supreme court rules trump will remain on the ballot in that state, despite his role in the events surrounding january 6th. i'm charles coleman junior and the readout continues right after this.

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reidout. i'm charles coleman junior in for joy reid tonight. there was another major development today that could affect the 2024 republican presidential primaries. michigan's supreme court rejected a case brought by voters to block donald trump from the primary ballot. the michigan justices did not rule on whether trump engaged in insurrection. the case was rejected on procedural grounds. arguing, quote, we are not persuaded that the questions presented should be reviewed by this court, end quote. and the ruling comes in michigan just a brief period after the colorado supreme court made the opposite decision. that court barred trump from colorado's primary ballot for engaging in insurrection by inciting the january 6th attack. since then, the fbi has begun existing denver police and investigating violent threats to the justices who made that ruling. right, now trump faces losses

to keep him off the ballot in at least a dozen states beyond colorado and michigan. let's just say he's got his hands full. michigan's highest court voted the voters suing their could renew their case for the general election if donald trump becomes the republican nominee. and for now, the colorado ruling blocking him from the state's ballot is on hold until january 4th. trump's campaign is expected to appeal the ruling to the united states supreme court. back with me is my panel. attorney glenn kirschner, former congressman david jolly, and my friend superlawyer barbara mcquade. barbara, i want to talk to you. can you -- even though i said it in the lead, up some people might be confused. what is the difference between the michigan case was decided in the way that it was and why the colorado case was decided in the way that it was? >> primarily, charles, it is a function of state law. every state has different rules about how they administer their own elections. and so what the court said here

is in michigan it is not an eligibility question for courts to decide if a primary state of an election. it is for parties to decide who they want to place their ballot. procedurally, and they said this question is just not right for the courts to adjudicate. and that's why they rejected this claim. i think one thing this really illustrates is why we might need the supreme court to weigh in here about how this case ought to proceed, so we can get a definitive answer. but because we have different state laws in different states, it may be difficult to find one uniform answer for all of it. >> given what you have just said, barbara, the fact that there are these different state laws, at what point do we get to any sort of reconciliation before election day? couldn't we be looking at a situation, potentially, where because of these differences trump is on the ballot in some states and in other states he is not? >> i think that is right, charles. you could see some states blocking him from being even on the primary ballot. you could see other states

saying he can be on the primary, but blocking him from the general election. i could even imagine a scenario where they say this just means he can't be inaugurated as president. there's nothing about it that says he is ineligible to run. i would hope the boards would step in before that because that would result in a utter chaos if we had someone elected who proceeded as president. the question is up in the air which is why i think it is so important that we do get the supreme court to weigh in on this question isner's boss. >> so david, the hill is reporting that trump has now demanded the recusal of the main secretary of state and determining whether he should be on the ballot because of a 14th amendment challenge, they're calling the secretary of state a biased democrat. it's important to note that in maine, challengers can appeal and the secretary of state can weigh in before the appeal is decided. are we in a space where, politically speaking, anyone now can zero in on the

secretary of state in any jurisdiction and charge that this is not a free and fair election, even before an election has taken place? >> i think that is part of what donald trump introduced to our country four or six years ago, if things are not going your way, you target the individual responsible. in this case, the administration of elections. as barb was saying, in each state, the power for these decisions is tested differently. in some states, the secretary of state may have discretion. we've seen them be cautious and using that discretion, and ultimately i think barb is right. this will require hopefully the supreme court to give a declaration on this 14th amendment question. but what you are seeing from donald trump, and will continue to see, i think, from republicans is this ramping up of intensity around this question. republicans see this through a very resentful lens, how dare you try to do this to donald trump. democrats and critics of donald trump say he needs to be held accountable for an insurrection.

what i keep harkening back to, though, because i'm skeptical of the strategy to get him off the ballot, what i keep parking back to is when barack obama said don't boo, vote. don't count on the 14th amendment to stop donald trump, let's hope it does, but work to get out there and vote and get your neighbors to vote as well. >> i think that is a very important point, i'm glad you made it. strategically, we are not talking about what are our contingency plans, how do we intend to use the checks and balances that exist within the constitution to our advantage, in the event that the outcome of the presidential election does not turn out how we might want. i'm glad you made that point. glenn, let's go from maine to michigan. donald trump reportedly has called a wayne county canvassers and basically told them they needed to fight for the country. he is getting into so much different trouble. it is important people understand, this is actually a different criminal matter than the other criminal matters that

he has facing him. what do you think is the likelihood that he may be looking at an indictment here? or do you imagine that this potentially could be used as evidence in his other election interference cases? her election inte>> it could certainly be usd in other cases as part of his m.o., his method of operating to show a common plan or scheme. donald trump seems to believe he can bully himself into any office. he can bully himself out of any situation. you know what, i think we need to remember it didn't work in 2020. and more importantly, what i don't think donald trump appreciates, the more we listen to him dispute nonsense into the public square day after day it is most of this nonsense will never see the inside of a courtroom. because criminal trials are governed by the rules of procedure, and the rules of evidence. donald trump and his lawyers are going to be so limited in

what they can present to the jury, whereas jack smith's prosecutors will be able to present every word donald trump uttered that they believe has evidentiary valley, that is incriminating based on the rules of evidence, the statement of a party opponent. once the rules of evidence are applied to donald trump and his legal team, they are not going to know what hit them. it's going to be a very powerful presentation in a court of law. >> barbara, one last question for you. if you are the prosecutor on, this if you are jack smith, how excited are you that donald trump continues to run his mouth about this immunity claim, or at this point are you not even moved? >> i think everything donald trump says, whether he says it at a rally or in an interview or on a truth social post, all of it is fair game. i imagine somebody on his team is continuing to collect all have his statements, because as glenside, a can be used against him in court. things that suggest his

knowledge of the election outcome can be useful at the trial. i think he will keep talking and jack smith will keep collecting. >> thank you to my panel of experts. glenn kirschner, david jolly, and my friend barbara mcquade, you all were excellent. after the break, republican lawmakers in wisconsin are signaling a new push to defend rigged voting math apps that have delivered huge majorities for years. after, that the state supreme court ruled that the maps are unconstitutional. there will be more on the reidout right after this.

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you can save. welcome back to the reidout. i am charles coleman junior in for joy reid tonight. riday, the wisconsin supreme court delivered a major victory for fair representation when rder the republican-controlled state legislature to draw new legislative eshead of the lectn. according to the court, the current republican maps are unconstitutional beof the districts boundaries are not contiguous. that is to say they include areas not connected to each other, which the wisconsin state constitution requires. take for example the 47th assembly district near madison. before i go any further, i want to make sure everyone understands what gerrymandering

is and why it is problematic. yes, we are going to take a trip back to seventh grade civics class. every ten years, we have a census. that census allows us to redraw legislative boundaries that, hopefully, reflect the population and don't violate laws like the voting rights act. down the way the constitutional framework intended it, that would mean districts would be drawing to be basically inexact portrait of a miniature of the people as a whole. but that doesn't appeal to everyone. and thare gerrymandering comes into play. if politicians manipulate the maps to reflect their own political ambitions, wisconn has been the poster child for gerrymandering since 2010, when will the conservatives helped republicans take control of the states government, implementing the nation's most aggressively biased redistricting. that diluted democratic voices in the state. wisconsin is a 50/50 state, where the two parties start out

basically with roughl same amount of voters statewide. but somehow, the state assembly, republicans consistently outperformed in elections. republicans in wisconsin have vowed to appeal this decision all the way up to the supreme court, which is part of a broader republican strategy to maintain control. now, the key to gerrymandering is the republican party's quest to kill the voting right act, something the supreme court has all too happy to indulge. republican disdain for the voting rights act has been so brazen that we' seen novel and unrelenting assaults on it. a civil rights attorney, i know. in arkansas, the eighth circuit court of appeals upheld a decision that a state does not have the right to redraw skewed maps. republicans used a radical new idea that the voting rights act cases can only be appealed by the attorney general of the

united states, and not by private citizens or the people who are affected. you may be wondering, where did this come from? i have an answer, or at least a suggestion. the idea seems to stem from the supreme court and from justices neil gorsuch and clarence thomas in a recent dissent. republicans in louisiana saw that eighth circuit decision as their opportunity to try to avoid redrawing their map. the gambit, however, did not work. they have until the end of january to draw and passed new congressional boundaries. joining me to discuss this is sophia, the director of the aclu's voting rights project. sophia, thank you so much for being here. we are all over the map in terms of literally, part in the terrible plan there. what is happening with so many of these voting rights cases? can you give me your reaction to what is happening, specifically in arkansas? >> thank you so much for having

me on tonight. yes arkansas it is quite the wild west. it's a decision that is completely beyond the pale. one that is contrary to decades of precedent and practice, including from the u.s. supreme court, including from the eighth circuit itself. it would completely eviscerate the promise of the voting rights act, the enforcement of which was completely driven by private plaintiffs, individual voters who have been the subject of race racial discrimination. it would completely bring those enforcement actions do a trickle. the attorney general can only bring so many cases at any given time. >> i'm sorry, go right ahead. >> i was going to say, as you said, it's part of a largerand very relentless assault on voting rights act that ha on for quite some time. >> so let's go down to texas.

there is a headline from the houston chronicle that talks about a case where the judges say galveston county violated the u.s. voting rights act, but another test is coming. there were can set conservatives on the galveston supreme court basically who, you know, allowed the maps. even though these maps were found by two other courts to be illegal. what do you make of where this fight is headed there and in other places across the country? >> unfortunately, again, and there is a relentless attack and there's been, and fortunately, some embrace of attacks that at once were considered beyond the pale. these hail mary's are not really hail mary's anymore. we are living in a time where arguments, theories you would consider once upon a time fantasies, are being accepted as possible realities.

that unfortunately means the voters are suffering. the promise of the voting rights act is to ensure racial language minorities can vote free from racial discrimination. what's happening in texas, the idea that coalitions of minority voters who are able to vote together to elect candidates of their choosing are not able to do that. that somehow is beyond the scope of a federal law and designed to protect minority voters. that is another attack on the voting rights act and an attempt to get the u.s. supreme court to once again constrain and limit the ability of racial minorities in this country to get a fair shake, to have equal opportunities in the political process in our country. >> sophia, there was a story that recently appeared in the washington post that talked about these election integrity units, and the notion that basically there's all this

commotion about these units, when they ultimately and disproportionately target black and brown and minority voters at a much higher level for a problem that has not been found to exist. it seems to me that, as someone described this, i thought it was beautiful, this is like a nail that is looking for a hammer. to hear the right talk about the notion of election integrity, you would believe that these instances are occurring at a much higher rate. can you explain the fact that this is truly not in fact the issue that people are trying to make it out to be? >> unfortunately, the myth of voter fraud has been around with us for sometime. the truth of the matter is it's never been, there has never been a problem with voter fraud. the fact that you, see these integrity units, so-called election integrity units designed to try to essentially find cases to support the idea

that there is this problem with voter fraud is, i think, demonstrates the fact that this is yet again fantasy and not reality. ultimately, if the report is very interesting in that it shows that these fraud prosecution units are targeting minorities. and that is a huge concern because, at the worst-case scenario, which i think is really true, even if they do not result in prosecutions, the fact that you are targeting minorities, subjecting them to investigation, that is extraordinarily terrifying and can result in despair amongst those communities, a desire not to participate, and fear. >> we sophia lin lakin, thank you so much for your insights in this very important conversation. coming up after the break, republican candidates prepare for a final push with just three weeks to go until the

iowa caucuses. donald trump is already accusing his rivals of trying to rig the contest. i am charles coleman junior and we will be right back with more of the reidout.

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readout. i'm charles coleman junior in for joy reid tonight. one member when the 2024 presidential election cycle

felt like a next year issue? that is about two and really, really fast. the iowa caucuses kick off the 2024 presidential election season in less than three weeks. the first contest in a republican nominating process is then followed by the january 20th or new hampshire primary. last, night donald trump appeared on truth social and accused his republican primary rivals of trying to rig the iowa caucuses. saying, quote, if the other side does cheat. this is further expanding his lies over election interference, lie itself is set to go on big trial. and there is still a yawning gap between trump and his many republican challengers. he leads by more than 50 points in the real clear politics national average. but if you look at other polls, that gap closes, especially when you start zeroing in on iowa. trump still leads, but the numbers are slightly higher for

ron desantis and nikki hey. and then when you turn and look at new hampshire, haley is polling second there. she trails trump by 20 points. new hampshire happens to be led by vocal trump critic governor kristen, who endorsed the former u.n. ambassador earlier this month. and now, sununu has appeared in a new ad for his presidential candidate of choice. he doesn't mention trump by name, but he did have this to say about his disruptive legacy. take a listen. >> we a new generation of conservative leadership who leave behind the chaos and drama of past. >> joining me now is democratic pollster and strategist cornell belcher, and kirk bardella, democratic strategist and contributor for the los angeles times. i have got an all-star panel with me. thank you guys for being here. happy holidays to you both. what do you make of the fact that we are in a space, cornell,

where donald trump is now accusing his rivals on the right of rigging the election, or is this sort of not a surprise at all and should be expected? >> well, it should be expected because he traffics in grievance, right? he traffics in grievance, he lives in grievance. grievance is his political capital. i will say, when you look at the polling data here, i don't usually care about the margins of difference between candidates. you are down ten points, 15, points i don't care as a pollster, because i've worked for candidates who have overcome double digit margins. when you look at the polling in early states, trump is either at a majority support or close to a majority support. and so, i don't care where you are. what i care about is how close you are to a majority. if you look at the polling right now, he is awfully close to majority in the two first states, which are the problem

for the field of candidates. particularly problematic for haley if she in fact wants to continue this so-called surge. she has pulled back over the last couple days and some reporting now she's playing it smart. you are not going to overcome an incumbent sitting in front of you with a lead by playing it smart. she's going to have to contrast and contrast with him hard. >> cornell, to follow up with you on that. is there any thought that by performing better in iowa and or new hampshire, that that might invigorates a new sort of life to either desantis or haley in their campaign? or is that going to make it harder for them to raise money and continue to fight the fight against the presumptive nominee? >> that is a really good question. it's all about the money. what you've seen is desantis pulling back. some of the other candidates pulling back. i think if haley does, well i

think the alternative money, the alternative to trump money begins to rally around her, which is important. iowa is important, but most of us forget that iowa doesn't necessarily decide who wins, especially in the primaries. i remember rick santorum won iowa, and most people have forgotten about that. but if she does well in the first two states, i think she becomes the alternative choice for trump and a lot of the money goes there. >> kirk, my friend, speaking of people pulling back, let's talk about everyone's favorite underdog. in like a lion and seemingly out like a lamb, we have the victim of, me who's now decided he's not going to spend any more money on television ads, but yet today alone he hosted eight town halls in iowa. i do not know how you do a town halls in a, day but apparently he does. what is this in terms of a sign? have we seen the last of ramaswamy's campaign?

is it on its last legs? or does he know something that we don't? >> i think it has been very clear from his posture, tone, and tenor that this guy is going to stay in the race as long as he keeps getting attention. he loves the stage. this guy is about as egotistical and arrogant and narcissistic as you are going to find. he loves the attention, he loves the spectacle of it. all he's not going to spend any money anymore on that because it is just good money. he is smart enough to know. that it still means he wants to be in that field, in the position. frankly, i think part of his game is to stay in there so he can take shots at the other candidates and donald trump's dirty work for him. he is almost the donald trump surrogate on stage during these debates a lot of the times. he carries all the water for trump and does a lot of nasty attacking against candidates like nikki haley. we've seen him in more recent debates. his endgame is to try to score enough points with trump by staying in, it fighting in a way that trump really endorses and likes to see, and hopefully

find himself in the trump cabinet, if that were to come to pass. >> kirk, staying with, you speaking of finding nikki haley, we've seen the identity politics ramped up around the different attacks on nikki haley. donald trump referring to her in a very sexist way, calling her bird brain. vivek ramaswamy of all people noting that her gender card shtick is pathetic. in a space where we know the notion of identity politics on the right is somewhat of a radioactive term. is this a narrative that nikki haley has to be concerned about as she continues to try and climb in the polls? >> i, mean i think when you are trying to be the standard bearer of the party that is built upon white nationalism, sexism, misogyny, it shouldn't shock you when you become the target of that type of rhetoric and attack lines. that is your party. those are the voters you are actively trying to court to get the vote for you. these are the same voters who

believe it is okay to take women's right to choose away, that it's okay for old white men to make decisions about your health care for you. it is the same type of thing we saw going after hillary clinton and the misogyny and sexism she was -- why nikki haley thinks she is exam from that, you should expect, this this is what's going to happen. especially when you're running against people like donald trump, the ringleader of this type of attack and that nasty nastiness and ugliness. the way that it is for the republican party and replaced a party that talk more about conservatism in policy, it has been completely run over by this personality, cult of personality. that's par for the course and that's the party are trying to run, nikki haley. good luck with that. >> cornell, last question to you. donald trump is about to go on trial at some point during next year. if that campaign is heating up on both sides. president biden right now is not polling well. the minute these caucuses start, it seems like, donald trump

will go on trial and presumably the entire news cycle, the air will be sucked out. does that hurt biden more in terms of his ability to breakthrough and do something about his poll numbers? or does it hurt donald trump in the sense that he is the presumptive nominee and he's also facing criminal indictments out the roy? >> i have 30 seconds dancer. one, i want to say that was a really good answer by my counterpart, my friend on the other side. great answer. and no, it does not hurt biden for his opponent to be constantly on television under trial and a threat is going to prison. that does not hurt him. >> two of the biggest brains i knew, and i knew we could get it done on this segment. thank you both, cornell belcher and kurt bardella. we will be right back with more of the reidout.

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be sure to check out msnbc's toplitical moments of the year, as chosen by joy reid and many of your other favorite msnbc hosts. the video is now live on our youtube channel. you can check it out at msnbc.com slash 2023. and that's it for tonight's reidout. all in starts right now. i'm tires charles coleman junior, and we will see you soon. colema >> good evening from los angeles.