getting to their destination on new year's day? >> let's start with the airline said. united, for example, upgraded its overhead storage space allowing for more luggage. and when it comes to the tsa they rely heavily on more technology. you'll notice they rotate shifts that way they can stay alert and focused. steven? >> all right, adrienne broadus, thank you. thanks so much for joining us. have a happy new year. simone townsend picks up for deadline white house right now. greetings, everyone. it's 4:00 here in washington, d.c. i'm simone sanders-townsend in for nicolle wallace. and then there were two -- two states where the disgraced twice impeached four times indicted ex-president has been kicked off the ballot or at least kicked off the ballot pending appeal. more proof that donald j. trump is having a hard time shaking the "i" word, insurrection.

and that the republican front-runner is heading into the new year with section 3 of the 14th amendment nipping at his heels. first it was colorado, now it's maine saying that trump is disqualified from being on the ballot. and let's not forget that more than a dozen other states with the 14th amendment have cases pending. 14th amendment cases. now the new ruling from the maine secretary of state is as fiery as it is somber. quote, i nclude as did the colorado supremeou that the record establishes that mr. trump over the course of several months and culminating on january 6, 2021, used a false narrative of election fraud to inflame his supporters and direct them to the capitol to prevent certificati o the 2020 election and the peaceful transfer of power. i likeise conclude mr. trump was aware of the likely hood for ce and at least initially supported its useiven he both encouraged it with incendiary rhetoric and took no timely action to stop it.

the weight of the evidence makes clear mr. trump was not of the tenr made by his multi-month effort to delegitimize a democratic election, and he then chose to light a match. i do not reachhis conclusion lightly. democracy is sacred, and the est court of this state has repeatedly recognized that no right is more precious in a free countr tn that than having a voice in an election of those who make the law under which we as good citizens must live. i am mindful no secretary of state has ever deprived a presidential candidate of ballot access based on section 3 of 2414th amendment. i'm also mindful, however, no presidential candidate has ever before engaged in an insurrection. to nobody's surprise donald trump threw a littl temper tantrum over an maine's decision to give him the boot, but he did not just stop there, folks. he went on his social media site where he posted a link directing

his followers to the maine secretary of state's official website, a website that lists her phone number and address. i wonder what trump possibly could have wanted to achieve by posting that? we're going to let you draw your own conclusions. but if past is prologue, the maine secretary of state could soon be on the receiving end of not just complaints from trump loyalists but threats as we saw from the supreme court who received death throats. it's worth noting this new ruling out of maine and colorado, that they are both still in legal limbo. the colorado republican party has already done trump a solid by appealing that state's ruling to the supreme court. and the former president has vowed to appeal this new ruling out of maine. meanwhile, donald trump did notch a win in the democratic strong hold of california where the secretary of state ruled that donald trump can stay on california's gop primary ballot. there are a lot of moving parts,

but this one thing is clear, folks. this new ruling out of maine, it proves that no matter how much the ex-president wants to wish it all away, the 14th amendment is very much a clear and present danger to donald trump's efforts to return to power. and that is where we start with the aforementioned maine secretary of state shena bellows. i want to start by asking you about something i just mentioned in our setup. are you and your team receiving any threats, and just not in the wake of your ruling but specifically in the wake of the ex-president posting a link to your official website with your contact information? >> first, thank you for having me. i deeply appreciate it. and i just want to share that my decision is about the rule of law and the constitution. that is my only consideration, and this is part of the process here in the state of maine.

and i hope everyone will be civil, will be respectful, and will follow the process and follow the law. >> madam secretary, i watched you -- >> the events of january 6 -- >> sorry. there was a delay. i just wanted to note i watched you on our network and others last night in the aftermath of your ruling, and you very much so this you laid out in your decision. you went through great lengths to just explain your process. it's -- you used somber language in the decision and in your conversations last night and just now with me. and i'm just wondering given all of the lengths you've gone through, i know you take this very seriously. what the former president did yesterday, i mean i can't infer what his reasoning was behind it, but do you feel like you were in any danger, and are you

all receiving any threats given the posts that he made? >> i'm not comfortable discussing my own personal security and indeed my own security and safety is not a consideration in this matter. we are a country of laws. and our oath that we swear is to support the constitution of the united states and the laws of our country. and so as we engage in this process, what is important is the meaning of the constitution, the facts before us, and that interpretation. and there can be no other consideration. and i think that's really important that this process is a legal process. the united states constitution gives states the authority to administer elections, and states in turn can pass laws delegating that authority which the maine legislature has done to the maine secretary of state and

that is why maine voters have the right to bring a challenge to any candidate's qualifications and they did so. and we held a hearing on december 15th and i made a decision because i was obligated to by the both i took to the constitution, and the next step is to the superior court. and then to the maine judicial court and then potentially the u.s. supreme judicial court. that is our process. that is the rule of law. that is what we need to uphold and follow no matter what. >> can wealk a little bit more about your decision? you suspended your decision until a court ruled on any appeal, which means that trump's name stays on the ballot for now. why did you build that into your decision and your ruling? >> given the compressed time line, given the novel constitutional questions and

given the complexities of ballot preparation, it's important to follow the process. so the superior court has a deadline of december 17th to issue a ruling should mr. trump appeal, and that's why i suspended the effect of my decision until the superior court rules or until that appeals period expires. >> in this ruling you also seem to preemptively take aim at something critics of yoursre already seizing upon, that you are a democrat. and you write, quote, my decision is based exclusively on the record before me, and it has in no way been influenced by my political affiliation or personal views about the events of january 6th. madam secretary, what do you say to those out there who are doggedly insisting that your finding is politically motivated? >> i encourage everyone to read my decision just as you have and to assess those arguments.

i made my decision exclusively based on the evidence at that hearing and the record in this proceeding because that's my obligation. so my political affiliation, my personal views of the events of january 6, 2021, have no bearing on that. they can't. >> maine secretary of state bellows, thank you so much for joining us. with that, folks, i want to bring in our panel. law scholar and president, danielle holly, harry litman, and with me at the table former u.s. congresswoman dona edwards. danielle, let's dig into this. this ruling out of maine you heard from the secretary of state there. i will note it's different than what we saw in colorado. in colorado the ruling came from the supreme court, the state supreme court. what happens now, and do you

think this changes the equation for the supreme court in any given form? are they more urgent now because maine has also weighed in? >> so i think we're at a very different stage in maine. this is as you said secretary bellows has made an initial decision. it has to wind its way first through the maine courts and then through the u.s. supreme court if former president trump appeals. so we're much earlier in the process. we know the colorado supreme court decision has already teed this up for the u.s. supreme court as a question, and so we're just much earlier in the process for maine. but if this is upheld in the maine court, it will go in the same direction, i predict, which is an appeal to the u.s. supreme court. >> harry, what's your reaction to the maine ruling? is there anything that stood out particularly to you? >> well, first, i think it's very sort of methodical and comprehensive. it's true and exactly as the president says, it's the initial

holding by the secretary of state, but it's very thorough. and in particular there's one issue, the definition of officer under section 3 of the 14th amendment that i think is even more comprehensive and had marshals affair been historic evidence and had the same conlution as the colorado supreme court. the biggest conclusion is the fact of it. we now have two examples, and maine is not ripe for the supreme court, but the supreme court now knows there are different ways states can reach the same conclusion. and it means if they're worried about consistency across the country, they're going to have to deal with a comprehensive federal solution not simply just review colorado's case. >> this is so true. okay, dona, this is true. this is very true. there's a lot happening. i mean we haven't even talked about all of these other pending

section 3, 14th amendment cases across the country in different states. the nation is watching to see what happens here. do you feel like this is pouring gasoline on the fire in some respect because the reality is this ongoing 14th amendment challenge is not just a conversation, there are legal proceedings that are happening. there are decisions and rulings that are being made, and it is intersecting right in the middle -- running up into our political process. i mean voters in iowa are going to the polls in less than three weeks. >> well, and what you hear are ballots are being printed. there's early voting in some of these states. look, i think that we all can't wait around to figure out what's going to happen with these court cases. the court cases are going to proceed inevitably the supreme court has to take a look at this. you cannot have these varying interpretations of one constitution provisions in different states, and so we're not going to be able to wait

that process out. voters will take to the polls, and i think that politically it really behooves all of us to beat donald trump whether he's on the ballot or not depending on ow that happens. we can't, like, rely on the court to do the job of voters. >> do you think that these 14th amendment challenges are a distraction for democrats? >> i don't think so. i think democrats are going to be focused on the main goal, getting the house and senate back, and keeping the senate and of course keeping the presidency. and i don't think there's anything standing in the way of it. and there's frankly nothing democrats or republicans can do about a court process going to wind its way into the supreme court. i say democrats stay focused, stay focused on what the goal is and let the court process work its way. look, donald trump has got civil and criminal cases. he's got these election cases. i mean he's going to be all over the courts everywhere.

democrats should just play their own game. >> literally all over the courts. there's lots of indictments, over0 charges. danielle, i wanto read something from the maine ruling, and i encourage everyoneo read itecause i think it was so well-done. quote, mr. trump's occasional request rioters be peaceful and support law enforcement do not immunize his actions. a brief call to obey the law does not erase conduct over the course of months culminating a speech on the ellipse. danielle, she seems to be saying that trump eventually calling on the mob to go home doesn't actually cut it, it doesn't absolve him. is that legally sound to you, madam president? >> i think there are several key questions under section 3 of the 14th amendment. first is did you participate in an insurrection? so that's why this detailed analysis of what the former president did on january 6th is very important. so you have the question of did

he participate, engage in insurrection as the law says? and the kind intended under section 3 of the 14th amendment. there are a lot of knotty legal questions under section 3 of the 14th amendment, so this is a difficult case for either side as they are arguing eventually in front of the supreme court. >> harry, let's put that map up again, folks. so if the supreme court takes up the question ofth amendment, and we expect that it will, is there a legal magic bullet that would shutdown all the other 14th amendment cases that are waiting in the wings? and what will you be watching for if and when the supreme court weighs in? >> yeah, and i think that really is the important question. because some things people were talking about like how do you define ininsurrection? thaikz narrow the definition, but then another state could say thank you for that and take up the definition.

they want this case like a root canal, but they're probably going to be stuck with. i think there are two kinds of arguments in the offing that would be global for them. the first would be say to say he's not an officer under that amendment. that would shut everything down. the second would be to say the meaning of this provision, anyway, is that congress has to decide who's in and who's out. that also would apply across the board. those are the two sort of global solutions, i think, would be within their reach. >> all right, well, danielle, before i let you go, we mentioned it but let's talk about california. eems counter intuitive to some people that are watching that a democratic strong hold like california has decided donald trump can stay on the ballot and that the california secretary of state, shirley weber, who like the maine secretary of state is also a democrat, she said that removing trump from the ballot under the 14th amendment, quote, is not something my office takes lightly and is not as simple as a requirement a person be at

least 35 years old to be president. so she's harkening back to a number of things other individuals out there have said about requirements to be on the ballot and disqualifications for running for president. do you think that ruling in california could be used as fodder or ammunition by trump's legal team in their efforts to appeal to the colorado and the maine rulings? >> i'm sure that the former president's legal team will use california, minnesota, michigan, all of the places that have gone in his favor to try to argue that essentially this is a political question and should be left to the voters. i think the problem with that argument is that section 3 of the 14th amendment exists, which means that based on the rule of law and what we're seeing in our democracy courts need to answer this question regardless of the fact that as donna said the process must move forward but the legal questions mugs be answered, and the constitutional questions are the bedrock of our rule of democracy and rule of law. >> indeed.

thank you so much for spending some time with us. harry will be back a little later. and donna is sticking around. when we come back, republicans are rushing to trump's defense after maine took him off the primary ballot. plus we'll take a look at a case that charged not just donald trump but 18 of his allies in a sweeping racketeering indictment. what's next for fani willing and her election case? and there's new reporting just how far team trump was willing to go. how trump's lawyers turned today a senator and a congressman to help them in the days before the insurrection. all of those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. don't go anywhere. continues after this don't go anywhere.

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they were peaceful people. these were great people. the crowd was unbelievable.

and i mentioned the word love. the love in the air, i've never seen anything like it. >> it is worth remembering just how dark that day was in american history. the sheer carnage unleashed by a mob with one purpose and one purpose only -- to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. and as the january 6th-led committee made so abundantly clear that mob was summoned and assembled by donald trump himself who then lit the flame of attack. in other words, donald trump incited a failed insurrection against the united states of america. so it really does smack of deliberate dishonestly to hear his primary opponents say stuff like this. >> well, the idea that one bureaucrat in an executive position can simply unilaterally disqualify someone from office, that turns on its head every notion of constitutional due process that this country has always abided by for over 200

years. it opens up pandora's box. >> ron desantis went onto ask whether a secretary of state ought to disqualify president biden from the ballot because of the undocumented migrants in america. but an insurrection like the one donald trump set ipmotion, it is right there in the constitution. he took an oath and then he engaged in a failed coup. those remarks from ron desantis they only extend a pattern that the rest of us have already observed. trump's primary opponents who only stand to gain from such constitutional consequences jumping to his defense over and over again. joining our conversation is senior political reporter for puck news, terra palmieri and joining me at the table msnbc political analyst cornell

belcher. you know, all donald trump had to do was not incite an insurrection. and he'd be perfectly fine, on the ballot in colorado and maine. can you explain the difference the complaints being taken off the ballot and the border as what ron desantis described and what's happening with donald trump? >> i think his argument is very far-fetched, wouldn't stand up in court. it just seems a little strange but not surprising because none of these republican opponents to trump have really been willing to charge at him directly. they think his argument he's a victim is actually a strong argument for him, and they don't see anything to gain by attacking trump when he is under legal scrutiny. even chris christie who has actually gone after trump directly, he refuses to take on trump when these legal cases come out and they show that trump could be disqualified from the election. they'd say they'd rather beat

him in a ballot, but then they don't go after him either. i think it shows the republican primary voters don't care about these legal cases and they calculated that. trump could still win re-election with these court cases. and perhaps they may even help him as we saw. his poll numbers were low and then indictment started happening. his opponents stood by him, and he rising up in the in the polls to the point where he is now. >> it is so strange to me because i've worked a lot of campaigns, we've all covered campaigns. campaign is about competition, and there seems to be a real lack of competition within this republican presidential brimaer. and to put a cherry on top of it, republicans writ large especially in the house and united states congress are trying to impeach president biden over the hunter biden story despite zero proof the president did anything wrong and frankly i think misunderstanding the real definition of what is

needed to bring an impeachment. do you expect a similar degree of retribution, if you will, over this? is this what ron desantis is trying to give voice to? >> i don't know. i mean he hasn't really fully gone after president joe biden in the impeachment inquiry. they haven't really attacked him quite yet on that. i think it depends on what happens in this race. if ron desantis loses after iowa or new hampshire, he may be angling to join the trump cabinet or be a running mate or something like that, and then he may be more aggressive and go and attack joe biden more ferociously, and he may also try to defend trump legally. i mean everybody is probably thinking about what the next step is. we're about a month away. they're pretty stagnant in the polls. there's really not a very aggressive race going on at least not in iowa where he stands to possibly i mean of any of the states to perform. so, yeah, i think eventually

they'll have to turn their fire away from donald trump and onto joe biden, but they're only going to have as much as the congress can show for their impeachment inquiry, and so far they haven't had much to show, and they really only have until spring, because after that there's going to be too many primaries going on and the election will be in full swing and no one is going to pay attention to it anymore, and i don't think it'll make it to a senate for a trial. >> you need edee for an imacent inquiry. rnl, i want to read this reminder from "the new york times." mr. desantis had previously suggested that the ruling in colorado had been part of a plot to solidify republican support behind mr. trump in the primary. he'd also set mr. trump's criminal indictments had suckedload the oxygen out of the race. cornell, is this a master plot by the democrats to get trump off the ballot, or is it an unconstitutional attempt? what is it what's going on?

or did donald trump inengage in insurrection? >> i think he's engaged in insurrection, and no one is above the law supposedly in our country. i want to pay attention to desantis on this. because going back to your point, it's hard to see how desantis is actually running to beat donald trump. and look, we're campaign people and you've gone through a couple of campaigns in your life as well. and campaign 101 in order to beat the person ahead of you is you actually have to make a hard contrast or at some point hit them. and what you've seen from this field except for chris christie is an unwillingness to ever take on donald trump and show hard contrast. so i don't take ron desantis' campaign seriously. he's not trying to actually run to beat donald trump. i don't know what he's running to do, but he's never going to beat donald trump if he doesn't actually strike a hard contrast and take donald trump on, and he's shown little ability to do that, and that's why he's floundering. >> no one in this race sans chris christie has been willing to criticize donald trump directly and take him head on.

we talked directly on this show about chris christie and the ad he's playing in new hampshire about donald trump and the danger he poses to democracy. i want to play for you mr., though, what he said about the maine ruling. let's play it right now. >> it makes him a martyr. you know, he's very good at playing poor me, poor me. he's always complaining. the poor billionaire from new york who's spending everybody else's money to pay his legal fees, poor me. but when stuff like this happens, you know, this should be decided by the voters of the united states. it should not be decided by courts. >> so cornell, that's a bit of a different tone. do you agree, but furthermore does it matter? did it matter that that's what he's going to do? >> ultimately i don't think it's going to matter because republican voters locked in. i think a lot of this is baked in. i've said this before and i'll say it again and actually donald trump said it, i can stand in

times square and shoot someone and not lose any support. they're locked in. the question really to me is not about whether he's on trial or he's disqualified. he's going to get his 46, 47%. the question is the biden campaign going to be able to once again organize and mobilize that majority of voters around him in order to defeat him in the battleground states. >> what is the answer to that question? >> i think they have a pathway. you know i'm an obama guy. >> america knows. >> i'm going to tell the truth. i think joe biden has a better story to tell for relelection than obama did. look at the legislation. we went into election with aca. aca was under water and a lot of your colleagues took an awful beating with aca. this goes into environment and manufacturing and in a way --

and legislation -- transform ffb legislation that quite frankly we did not go into a re-election with. i think he's got a great storty to tell, and my god, i wish they'd start telling it. >> you know, on one hand you have the 47%, right, and cornell knows the numbers better than anybody that i know. but i just -- donna, i am concerned about the fact that republicans seem just unwilling to upset what they believe as the majority of republican primary voters, donald trump's base by criticizing them in any way, shape, or form for fear of, one, that they're driving the bus, for fear they're going to want retribution at the end of it. are you concerned about that? are you concerned about what is going to happen, let's say donald trump is the nominee, that's where it's tracking towards. let's say the supreme court weighs in. are you concerned just about what this could mean for further polarization and what people would do to act on that

polarization? >> well, i've been concerned since january 6th and the run up to the 2020 -- in the 2020 election that we are facing a circumstance in this country that we haven't seen in a really -- you know, generations to challenge our democratic processes and institutions. and so it's a long-term concern. but i do think that voters are motivated by this idea of preserving and protecting democracy. we actually saw that in 2018. we saw it again in 2020. joe biden has played to that. i think that that's a strength because especially for independent voters, that's an important -- that's an important component. and only democrats can stand -- there's not a single republican maybe sans chris christie who can stand on the side of democracy because they've all been in defense of donald trump and donald trump's anti-democratic behavior.

so i think there's going to be few -- there will be few opportunities in these next several months to try to coalesce that vote that cornell talked about. but biden does have a story to tell. it is time to start telling it. >> all right, we will leave it there. terra palmieri, cornell belcher, and donna edwards, thank you for spending time with us and making it plain. >> coming up for us the fulton county election case gave us tearful confessions, drama in court, and the first ever presidential mug shot. we'll talk about what comes next for d.a. fani willis and her effort to hold trump world accountable. her effort to hold trump world accountable. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain! diabetes can serve up a lot of questions, like, "what is your glucose?" and "can you have more carbs?" before you decide... with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence.

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what was president trump's reaction when this cadre of advisers would say you lost. well, they'd say that and he'd walk out and say this is what i'd deal with all the time. >> if i knew then what i know now, i would have declined to represent donald trump in these post election challenges. i look back on this whole experience with deep remorse. >> those were just some of the absolute bombshells in recent months to come out of the sweeping charges in georgia. ever since she charged the ex-president and 18 codefendants in august of engaging in a racketeering conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election, d.a. fani willis has secured a series of major wins -- plea deals from

if you defendants, former trump allies. and as the atlanta journal constitution points out, pretty big fish to begin with as she works her way up. not to mention the first and only mug shot of a former u.s. president all while holding her own against republican jim jordan's outrageous demands and political accusations. and let's not forget the failed attempts by five defendants including trump's former chief of staff to move their cases to federal court. we're back with harry litman. harry, quite the year for district attorney fani willis. i think there's so much to choose from. what stood out to you? >> well, first, she really has as you say held her own. and i think it's the way she started big and begun to whittle it down, make it very clear at least trump, meadows, and giuliani are not getting deals. and i think there may be three others. there are 15 total, but a lot of them are genuine small-fry georgia electors. and i think we could see a whole

tassel of pleas once the trial is imminent. right now it's set for august. it's kind of a late date that she chose, and even the judge has expressed some interest in moving it up. because if it doesn't given how long she says it's going to take, no way it finishes before november. >> so i think this is an interesting point, harry. you know, there were lots of defendants who turned down plea deals, and you just noted that you could see more people flipping, but when -- whenever this case comes to fruition, i mean in the -- in the current racketeering case that fani willis is trying in georgia, it took 10 months to do jury selection there. do you foresee the same thing happening here? >> ten months is a long time. i don't see that. but if you take her four-month estimate and add on jury selection and however long a defense case takes, they've got to start by the spring to have

any shot of finishing. i do think it would have simplified, because the big thing about this case, simone, is everybody has the same exposure, everyone is charges adbeing part of the rico, so the smaller actors are really facing very big exposures. i think when we're looking at the eve of trial, you'll see them plead in the same way we saw the other four plead already. but it's a sprawling trial. this jury selection is not going to be easy, and as of now, it doesn't look like it can finish before november, but everyone's starting to look at it because the other big case that could, the january 6th case, may itself be delayed. so that's really the sort of on deck case as it were. >> i mean fani willis, she heb doubted before, who knows what she has up her sleeve. if we talk about that recorder testimony that got out, what do you think that tells us about what the defendants actually gave prosecutors especially

those folks, again, that flipped? >> yeah, the ones who have pleaded including, by the way, chesebro we learned about yesterday. meadows in particular but really all three of the top dogs here -- meadows, trump, and giuliani -- it's almost hard to see how they escape other than by jury nullification. remember the jury pool here is a little bit more pro-trump based on voters might say than others might be. her evidence is really strong and the way she's charged it gives her the maximum ability to marshal all kinds of evidence and moving through. i don't think any of these defendants really are itseeing a path to acquittal. i just can't see it. they're looking to delay, maybe they're hoping for jury nullification, but she's got a case that is very, very hard to beat. >> all right, we'll be watching. harry litman, thank you for spending some time with us.

after the break, russia steps up its assault on ukraine as the biden administration sends what could be the last batch of aid if congress can't strike a deal. f congress can't strike a deal.

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the attack killed at least 30 people and injured 160 according to officials. ukraine received a partial aid package to cover their immediate military needs this week. $250 million in weapons. and much bigger $61 billion aid package is currently beingeld up by republicans in ngress. this afternoon president biden urged congress to take up the package in t new year, calling the latest attack a stark reminder to the world that after nearly two years of this devastating war putin's objective remains unchanged. he seeks to obliterate ukraine and subjugate its people. he must be stopped. unless congress takes urgent action in the new year, we'll not be able to continue sending the weapons and vital air defense systems ukraine needs to protect its people. joining us now retired four-star general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey. general mccaffrey, is it any coincidence russia ramps up

their attacks as funding is now set to run out from the united states? >> well, it probably is part of it, and it's not just a $61 billion u.s. package congress has failed to act on, but the european union had a $58 billion package that was held up by hungary's veto of the aid. so ukraine is in terrible trouble without military, economic, and indeed humanitarian aid, they can't possibly resist this criminal russian attack on their sovereignty. and i might add, you know, as you look at the situation, some of it was just sparked by putin's rage that he lost another major combat ship to the ukrainian air force. so the russians are doing very badly. their economy is in trouble, but they have the support of north korea, iran, and for that matter to some extent china. and they're going to muscle

ukraine into obliteration if we don't support them. >> you know, general, i think a lot of folks hear these numbers and they say, oh, $58 billion is a lot of money, $61 billion a lot of money. why is this aid so necessary for ukraine, and what kind of aid are we talking about that they need to make it through the next year? >> well, of course, to some extent it's a small country, giant land area. it's an important western european country. it seeks alliance with the european union and western values. but on its own it can't fight a war against an immensely larger russian military never mind 100 million more people. and so the european union, for example, was essentially paying the salaries of public service workers in ukraine and also

adding humanitarian aid. millions fled the fighting and refugees in their own country, most of crimea, the eastern donbas, plane of them they're left as refugees. never mind the military problem. by the way, the military problem has changed. this is not desert store armored warfare, overwhelming u.s. air power. this is a war of drones, artillery, mines. it resembles to some extent on a 1,000-kilometer front it looks more like world war i with advanced technology than armored blitzkrieg. so it's really a tricky, complex, and dangerous situation where our u.s. national security interests are at stake. >> do you think that the calculus for putin and the russian military changes as the united states heads into an

election year? i mean could donald trump returning be -- returning as a presidential candidate embolden putin in any way? >> i have never understood this whole relationship between mr. trump and putin. putin is a thug, a murderer. he's got the russian federation into terrible trouble economically, politically. he's stamped out free speech, so why mr. trump seems tuesday be in league with this desperado is hard to understand. yes, putin and for that matter, other criminal enterprises like the north koreans are actively hoping to have mr. trump back in office where in my personal opinion he would be devastatingly bad for u.s. national security. >> general barry mccaffrey, thank you for joining us. a quick break, folks.

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for those children too face gender dysphoria and for their families, the consequences of this bill could not be more profound. ultimately, i believe this is about protecting human life. >> that was ohio's republican

governor mike dewine explaining why he vetoed a bill that would have restricted transition care for minors and transgender girl's participation on sports teams. dewine's street so one of those things that might just make sense to you and me, but it is an unfortunately rare move from a republican governor as bans on gender affirming care have swept theountry over the last few 22 states have laws on the books that impact whether or not young people get the gender affirming care that they need. the ohio general assembly, which is controlled by a republican super majority, can override governor dewine's veto with a three-fifths majority vote. we'll make sure to keep an eye on ohio for you. coming up in the next hour of "deadline white house" trump attorney ken chesebro has flipped, and he has got a lot to say about donald trump's efforts to overturn the election. the latest revelations involving a senator, a congressman, and a mail delay.

that story right after a quick break.

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the assembled groups of individuals in key battleground stops and got them to call themselves electors, created phony certificates, and then transmitted these certificates to washington and to congress to be counted during the joint session of congress on january 6th. none of this worked. but according to federal district judge david carter, former president trump and others likely violated multiple federal laws by engaging in this

scheme including conspiracy to defraud the united states. >> hi, again, everyone. it is 5:00 in washington, d.c. and i'm simone sanders-townsend in for nicolle wallace. the fake electors scheme was an illegal attempt for donald trump to cling to power. an effort to cross several states to give then vice president mike pence an alternate incorrect slate of electors to certify on january 6th. former vice president ultimately did not interfere in the electoral college certification, but from the work of the select committee and various other reporting, we know how deep this plan went. now a new report by cnn reveals even more how far trump allies went in their pusuit of this scheme. nbc news has not matched the reporting. it finds when there was concern the fake elect certificates from two critical battleground states were stuck in the mail on their way to the capitol, quote, trump

campaign operatives scrambled to fly copies of the phony certificates from michigan to wisconsin to the nation's capitol relying on a haphazard chain of couriers as well as help from two republicans in congress to try to get the documents to then-vice president mike pence while he presided over the electoral college certification. these details come mostly from the architect of the fake elector plot himself, kenneth chesebro, who pleaded guilty in october to a felony conspiracy charge in georgia and has also met with prosecutors in michigan, nevada, and wisconsin who are investigating the fake electors in their own states. here's chesebro describing the prosecutors in michigan. the panic among trump campaign staffers just days before the 6th. >> oh, he was checking the tracking. these are tracking -- and the thing even more alarming is the whole point the archive is one is reserved in for the

presen of the senate in case there's a problem with the mail. so the general house of the campaign was alarmed and was chartering -- they didn't have to charter j but they did commercial. >> well, it says that on the e-mail. >> i forget if they charterered, but, yes this is a high level decision to get the michigan and wisconsin votes there. and they had to enlist a -- you know, a u.s. senator to try to expedite it to get it to -- get it to pence in time. >> the senator he's referring to, republican senator ron johnson of wisconsin, who when asked for comment by cnn reiterated his previous comments which said my involvement in that attempt to deliver span the course of a couple seconds and that in the end those electors were not delivered. this new reporting providing a window into the last ditch anti-democratic eattempts by

trump allies to keep the former president in power despite his election defeat, ones that special counsel jack smith emphasizes in his indictment where he charged trump with conspiracy to defraud the country and obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. and that is where we start this hour with former congressman from florida, msnbc political analyst david jolly, former federal prosecutor and nbc news legal analyst, paul butler. say that five times, paul. and former fbi counter intelligence agent peter struck. and also the president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" here on msnbc, the great reverend al sharpton. david, talk about the lengths -- i mean this reporting from cnn is just stunning. the lengths that the trump campaign went to, the trump allies in order to have these fake elector certificates at the capitol on january 6th. >> yeah, simone, first, you know, something i don't think we've ever really focused on, how dirty is ron johnson in all

of tis, right? he does all these interviews, he kinds of plays up his whole i was protecting the election integrity, but he was very much involved in this. ron johnson kind of sitting in the u.s. senate as one of the chief conspirators is something i think we often overlook. but i also think all this information from the phone calls that were made to the election canvassers in michigan to this effort how we shuttle a slate of alternate electors to the u.s. senate, it all actually goes to defeat the fundamental claim and defense of donald trump. recall donald trump's immunity claim, the one that he lost in the d.c. circuit, that jack smith wants heard in the supreme court and ultimately will be. it is that somehow donald trump was engaged in activities relate today the outer perimeter of the presidency. that's not this. it is -- you could picture a world in which the president is interested in fair and free elections, in the administration of free elections.

but in that case a president would do what we saw kind of with bush and gore, though they weren't presidents. they would have their james baker, their warren christopher ensuring the proper administrations of elections happened. that's not this. this is the direct influence of a president trying to rig elections in georgia and michigan and wisconsin and other states to get himself more votes. and i think all of this information, all these details ultimately serve to defeat the fundamental defense of donald trump, which somehow he was engaged in a presidential act and therefore immune, no, he wasn't. all of this information suggests this stopped. >> it's just so undemocratic. pete, we know that kenneth chesebro, that he is unindicted coconspiratorter number 5. is there anything else we know about potential cooperation by him with federal investigators? this testimony to michigan legislators -- pardon, to

michigan officials is just quite astonishing. >> well, it's certainly interesting, simone. and given the detail that came out through these recordings, one of the very interesting things that was included in that reporting was a statement i think from chesebro's attorneys saying they had approached jack smith several months ago and offered to come in and speak to them and they hadn't received a response. why that's interesting for a couple of reasons. we know chesebro has been charged in fulton county, georgia, and reporting as you indicated he's spoken with folks in wisconsin and michigan. he isn't sitting down in proper sessions and sworn testimony, but it is curious jack smith whose team, for instance, has given rudy giuliani a proper session has not yet pursued chesebro. now, on the one hand that speaks to just the huge amount of alleged crime here. the vast complexity of just across state after state after state that jack smith has to look at, now it could be that investigators and prosecutors want to get as much information as they can before they take

chesebro up on his offer, but i would certainly expect that at some point, they would take him up on that offer even if it doesn't result on anything simply to see and hear what it is he has to say. >> you know, paul, this point that pete is making i think is really important because the fake electors plot is a very big part of jack smith's indictment. one, can you speak to why? but, two, why do you think jack smith and his team have yet to speak to the architect of the fake electors plot, kenneth chesebro? >> so kenneth chesebro has some baggage. he's mad because trump's top campaign guys like matt roman and mike morgan applied to distance themselves from the big lie. they claim that after the election rudy giuliani and kenneth chesebro were running everything. but chesebro, he's like, well, if i'm going down, i'm taking

everybody else with me. so that's why we're getting all these juicy details. jack smith already knows all of this. he really needs this trial to happen before election day. that's why his federal election interference case focused on the person who is most culpable, former president trump. that's why there's only one defendant and only four counts. but chesebro is an unindicted coconspiratorter in the federal election interference case. he could be charged later. that's why his attorneys are right now reaching out trying to make a deal. >> you know, reverd sharpton, i want you to listen to more of what chesebro has to say. he is talking to prosecuto again in michigan. >> he finds representative perry who gets a staffer to greet and meet us at like 3:45 p.m., and

so -- and i don't know why w did that. so mike bro -- i had the wisconsin stuff. mike brown had the michigan stuff. and the guy with perry and whatever his name is and some other fellow they were like staff members of the house, took them and said we're going to walk them over to the senate and give it to a senate staffer, who i guess is senate staffer from johnson. and that's how i don't know why logistically we didn't take it directly to johnson but that's how we did it. >> rev, how alarmed are you that at least one member of the house and one senator were also involved in this very illegal scheme. >> it is extremely alarming because we're seeing people that actively try to undermine the due decision that was made by

voters. i think it is also interesting that we see these reports come out as the supreme court now is having to deal with what has happened in terms of maine taking trump off the ballot and colorado. so don't forget all these schemes were corresponding with january 6th to stop the certification. the more this comes out, i think the more the supreme court has to look at this was an active attempt to create a false set of electors to undermine and in many ways therefore deny the american public of an election or due process election, which was an insurrection. how in the face of all of this it becomes more and more difficult for the supreme court to come back and say we don't know if there was an insurrection and the 14th

amendment and the third section or fourth section doesn't apply. when there's an elaborate scheme. it clearly went all the way up to donald trump who led the january 6th march and rally and said be over there. and this is all because that was to be combined with what we're hearing now, to stop mike pence from having the election or the certification on that date. this all comes together. we have to make sure we understand we're not talking about isolated incidents here. >> reverend sharpton makes such an important point. none of this is happening in a vacuum, right? i mean, pete, the danger to our democracy and the peaceful transfer of power is literally coming -- it was coming not just from inside the white house, the house and the senate, how concerned are you about lawmakers having been caught up in this plot as well, active participants? >> well, it's certainly concerning to the extent that, one, not just their involvement but, two, any extent there's

preplanning. we know various member of congress went to the white house in the mid-december 2020 time frame. so the question i'm sure investigators are looking at is not just was this sort of spontaneous political activity, something covered by speech or debate protections on the house or the senate or the house, but whether or not certain members of congress were actively engaged with the trump campaign in advance of january 6th knowing that what they were doing is improper, knowing what they were doing is potentially illegal. and that's what investigate rrz going to focus on. we know that several congressional communications that were argued to be protected, speech and debate, that that was overcome and jack smith has seen some of these text messages and e-mails and other things. so there is sufficient indication there might be illegal activity there. but anytime you see a second branch of government cooperating with a president, trying to illegally maintain power, that's tremendously concerning. >> to say the least. i mean i don't think i need to

remind anyone here that we're almost to 2024. it's a presidential election year. paul, will those involved in these schemes be held to account before voters go to the polls? i think that's a question that relates to the ex-president. i think it speaks to a number of his lieutenants. are we going to see any accountability there? >> simone, that's up to the d.c. court of appeals and then the supreme court. the federal election interference trial is really the only one of the four prosecutions against the former president that has any hope of proceeding before election day. jack smith is making proactive motions. after the court of appeals in d.c. decides the immunity issue and the supreme court indicates what it wants to do about that, either take the case or not,

jack smith wants to hit the ground running. it's very possible if the supreme court allows it or the federal election interference trial to happen way before election day. >> rev, it just feels like with every new report, every new development, there's an urgency to protect our democracy and that urgency just becomes stronger and clearer as we barrel closer and closer to november 2024. >> you could not stress more strongly the sense of urgency as you hear our elaborate and how involved other officials were in denying the american people who they duly elected. and now with many of them including former president trump facing jail, they're going to be even more desperate, which is why we need these trials to happen before the election. and which is why the supreme

court needs to, in my opinion, protect the whole precedent of how we will not have election interference and insurrections decide our president. this is as bad it can get. and i think that rather our play into the narrative of old men running against each other, we're talking about whether the democracy that this country has purported will survive. if people can steam light this and get away with it, and you've got their coconspiratorteres saying this is what we do, and we're going to go an election talking about how old somebody is when we're getting ready to see people that undermined and intentionally sought to undermine the last election now be able to try and do it again. imagine if they get in, what they will do. we will not know this country within a year or two after donald trump would get back in the white house. and they're blatantly telling us that that is what they intended

to do. we're going to allow that to happen? not on my watch. >> you know there is more to discuss. and lucky for us no one here is going anywhere. when we return, why law enforcement concerns about threats to election workers are only getting stronger. new reporting on the specter of violence facing those on the front lines of democracy as we head into an election year. that's next. also ahead, texas congressman collin allred who's running for senate against ted cruz he'll be our guest later in the hour, and a special encore presentation of nicole's interview with former vice chair liz cheney. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. house" contins after a quick break. don't go anywhere. that always puts you first. (we did it) start today at godaddy.com

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with only 17 days to the iowa caucuses, the beginning of an election year in earnest, officials in state after state across the country, they are making their preparations. and specifically they're preparing for what could be an unprecedented number of threats to our democratic process, both foreign and domestic. we mentioned earlier part of that danger comes from donald trump himself. the latest is his social media post in which he shared contact information for maine's secretary of state in the aftermath of the 14th amendment decision there. what can happen t people trump targets is already well-cataloged. but it's bigger than that. the "associatees" today with impressive new repti on the vast number of challenges for which election officials preparing. quote, many of the concerns from

four years ago persists. the potential for cyber attacks targeting voter registration systems or websites that report unofficial rul and equipment problems or human errors being amplified by those seeking to undein confidence in the outcome. add to that the precrisks that have developed since the 2020 election and the false claims of widespread fraud being spread by former president donald trump and his republican allies. death threats directed at election workers and breaches of voting equipment inside election offices have raised questions about safety and security. we are back with david, paul, pete, and reverend sharpton. david jolly, just a lot of these concerns, they go back to the big lie. there's a direct line. and this nonexistent voter fraud, right? so how do you put the toothpaste back in the tube? can you even put it back in the tube? >> i don't know that we do, simone. you know well the oath of a

federal official says you'll protect the nation against threats forsqun domestic. i think in 2016 we talked about the foreign threats, the interference of international adversaries who wanted to tamper with the integrity of our elections. in 2020 we saw a domestic threat. the effort on january 6th to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. and i think in 2024 we should presume that we will see both. we will see foreign and domestic threats to our own elections. and it sounds like hyperbole at some points, but it really is not. we know that there are nation state anthers overseas that want to undermine our belief and the integrity of our systems, but we also know through donald trump's own words. the words that come out of his mouth are threats of violence and intimidation, and his followers then act on them like we saw on january 6th. we are entering a chaotic and also a very difficult and testing 2024 election.

as a nation we are resilient enough to overcome it, but only if we are dedicated to do so, but and i'm not sure we are today. this is going to be a very tough 2024. the threats are real. we have government agencies that can protect against what they can protect against, but at some point the voters also have to stand up and say we also are going to stand for free and fair elections in the united states. >> peter struck, on the topic of threats specifically to officials, you don't have to go back to 2020. just this month the az central ports that a man, quote,s accused of threatening fbi agents, a judge, and elected ofcis while he was living in arizona and colorado. accordingo court records, he made threats in annline forum called patriots.win. the comments included dogatory remarks about current and former federal officials who tomasi said should be tortured and

killed and he also expressed his desire to rape a female member of congress, the indictment states. peter, how clued in is law enforcement to stuff like this especially head of an election? is there a new unit potentially that is being stood up just to deal with this? >> well, there is. one of the most chilling things that i've heard fbi director wray say recently is the fbi has created an entire unit essentially to track threats to fbi personnel. but one of the extra additionally chilling things is this indictment of tomasi, the individual notes at the very beginning of the indictment this investigation was the result of a tip by a non-profit organization that was looking at threats online. i started out in the fbi working domestic terrorism, and there was severe limitations for first amendment reasons what the fbi could do tracking and protect -- what was considered protected speech. when you look at what he said it wasn't just rape, it was the words he used, that he wouldn't

want to rape this congresswoman for the sexual gratification. he wanted to put her through it so she experienced the horror of a violent rape. he talks about it and posted a video that he called his let's go brandon dance, which is him dancing with two firearms. i can't even repeat on-air the things he said he want today do to fbi agents. the fact of the matter is we're talking so much about the violence that could happen. we need to stop. the violence is happening right now. it is ongoing right now. and as best i can tell when you look at the people who are engaging in it, by far and away they are people based on their own statements who are in line with donald trump and absolutely taking their cues from his statements and from his posts on social media and pursuing violent action as a result. >> paul butler, i want to play something from the january 6th committee hearings. this is michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson's, this is her experience after the 2020

election. >> stop the steal! stop the steal! you're a threat to democracy! you're a threat to free and honest elections! >> we love america! we love our freedoms! >> you're a felon and you must turn yourself in! >> the uncertainty of that was what was the fear. are they coming with guns? are they going to attack my house? i'm in here with my kid. i'm trying to put him to bed. and so it was -- that was the scariest moment just not knowing what was going to happen. >> paul, the fear in her voice as she describes it is palpable, and you watch that clip folks yelling you are a tyrant, you are a felon, you must turn

yourself in immediately. this is not just -- this is not just normal peaceful protests. how do you go about prosecuting people intent on intimidating officials like that or perhaps even worse? >> you know, simone, for a long time i was a federal public corruption prosecutor. and there have always been issues with denying the vote to people of color. but the integrity of our election system has been the crown jewel of our democracy. there was a section called election crimes that people actually didn't want to work in because there was so little work. all of that has changed. why? because when they passed laws that try to eliminate same-day registration, and by they i mean republicans because those the people trying to pass those laws, they have to tell these lies about how corrupt our voting system is. and then that results in threats like the ones we just saw and

threats to people like ruby freeman and shaye moss. the irony is that by sowing disinformation and fear, these homegrown threats are playing directly into the hands of russia and china. >> reverend sharpton, paul just put the finer point on it because it is not just elected officials who are facing such threats. it's election officials who are volunteers. i mean, citizens who are are helping our democracy run smoothly. ruby freeman and shaye moss were targeted by donald trump and his allies. and we have also seen a wave of retirements in the aftermath of 2020 and 2022 of folks who are just unwilling to volunteer again their time and talents to make sure our democracy runs smoothly. what is your level of worry there as we head into another consequential election? >> it is -- my worry has

increased because now you're looking at people who care nothing about electors like those two black women in fulton county or people around the country who are collateral damage to them for their objective. but now they're not only facing the objective because they want power, they're facing it to try to stay out of jail. many of them feel the only way not to be imprisoned is for donald trump to be back in the white house and part themselves and others. their desperation has increased and cautious to alarmed now needs to be in even higher gear because they'll stop at nothing with this. this is why i've said those of us that look through the lens of the civil rights movement, we face death to get the right to vote. let's remember now in my lifetime i've seen people

killed. two jews were mowed down and killed, buried with their eyes opened. so you need some people that are not afraid of people that would interfere with our right to vote who come from the bloodline of people that died to get us the right to vote in the first place. so this is no battle for people that think they can hide behind memos. we are ready to stand up in '24 because nobody gave us the right to vote, and we're not going to let them take it back without a realight. >> rally the troops, reverend sharpton. david jolly, paul butler, peter struck, thank you all for joining us and your clarion call. sunday the 13th annual revvie awards where rev and his panel celebrates the best and worst of

politics in 2023 and they give awards to those who deserve it, you won't want to miss it. when we return, we'll be joined by texas congressman collin allred. his thoughts on the decision to knock donald trump off the ballot in maine plus his direction on a critical ruling in a key swing state. that's next. critical ruling in a key swing state that's next. plans start at $25 per line guaranteed for 3 years. only on verizon. hi, i'm michael, i've lost 62 pounds on golo and i have kept it off. most of the weight that i gained was strictly in my belly which is a sign of insulin resistance. but since golo, that weight has completely gone away, as you can tell. thanks to golo and release, i've got my life and my health back.

in georgia, a democrat is holding her own against a

relentless fight by republicans in her state to force her out once again. -crosswoman lucy mcbath, a prominent black lawmaker and gun safety activist, says the state's new congressional maps drawn by the gop led legislature, quote, blatantly target her. the new lines approved by a federal judge yesterday create a new majority black district after the judge found the state's previous lines diluted the power of black voters. but the new map also dismantles mcbath's district. black, latino and asian voters make up a majority, and therefore imperilling mcbath's's chances. for her part she says, quote, i'm not going anywhere, i refuse to allow an extremist view to decide when my work in congress is complete. let's bring in democratic congressman from texas, collin allred, also running against ted cruz for senate next year.

congressman, you wear a lot of hats. you are also a civil rights attorney. so what is your reaction to this move by georgia republicans in a key 2024 state making congresswoman mcbath's current district more favorable for a republican candidate? she says she's being blatantly targeted. >> thank you, simone, for having me on. i agree with lucy. i think she is being targeted. i want to go back something the rev said in your last segment which is that we fought for the right to vote. we fought to pass legislation that enshrined and protected our right to vote. now it's time to fight to end things like partisan gerrymandering. that's what i've tried to do in my time in congress. we passed the freedom to vote act in the last congress and we had the 50 votes in the senate, we couldn't get it past the filibuster. that would end partisan gerrymandering as well as establish national standards for early voting and vote by mail, which we were also talking about in your last segment. we're empowered by the 15th amendment to do that, which gave

congress the power to enforce articles by appropriate legislation. this is time for us, i think, to stop relying on the courts to protect our values. we know the courts are not going to be our back stop. they're not going to be the garnteres of our civil rights. now it's time for us to do it affirmatively through legislation, let's pass some of this important legislation. >> congressman, you make a point about the courts and this map particularly in georgia that was drawn after the judge ordered another black majority district be added. it is one of many section 2 cases that have been litigated across the country after that supreme court case in alabama v. milligen. what is the strategy here from democrats? is there a case for folks to say this shouldn't give republicans the right to shuffle around other districts because this is happening in georgia? there are similar cases in louisiana. there's a similar case in

florida. there is potential for some cases in texas. i mean this is a very real issue that is actively being played out all across the country. >> yeah. well, you're right, simone. we're certainly experiencing it in texas. we have some of the worst i think gerrymandered legislative districts across the country. we're see itting in the south -- not just the south, though. across the country where we have single party control. and let me be clear, there are some democratic controlled states gerrymandered as well. to me the ability to gerrymander erodes folks faith in our democracy. it also suppresses the vote. because when you have fewer competitive elections and people don't know who their member of congress is in any way, then you see some of these lower turnouts in some of these gerrymandered districts and produces some of the most extreme politicians that are producing some of the

dysfunction we have. i have some of my former colleagues and i believe in them. i think they're making the right arguments and they will make the best arguments. i don't always believe in the courts they're in front of, and i think that's why we have to move to the legislative front. >> i do want to get you to weigh in. i mean, we've been talking a lot about on the ballots there's all these 14th amendment cases happening. you yourself are on the ballot. i believe you have a march 5th primary in tex. what is your reaction to these 14th amendment cases, and the fact that a lot of donald trump's primary opponents, all of them actually, even chris christie, they have rushed to defend him. what does this say about the republican party writ large? >> yeah. simone, i think you know that i was on the floor on january 6th, the house floor when that mob tried to break in. and when you're the only former nfl backer who's on the house floor and there's a mob trying to come through, folks look to

you to protect them. and i actually sent a wife a text saying good-bye basically, that i never thought i'd have to send on this job. we found out later mike pence and the secret service detail were sending the same sort of messages to their families. it was certainly an insurrection led by folks like donald trump but also ted cruz who was one of the chief architects who planned to overturn the election. and to me this is actually our system working as it should, which is that some courts like the colorado supreme court may make a decision, some secretaries of state like in maine may make a decision. and now mr. trump has the right to appeal it to the united states supreme court. that's actually a functioning democracy working with a federalist system, but i think it's going to be ultimately up to the voters, up to our democracy itself to purge this kind of idea that we're not going to accept elections, that we're going to move away from democracy itself, that we're going to try to overthrow elections and for the first time in our history we're going to

have a peaceful transfer of power. voters are going oo have to rejet this in the next election and i'm confident they will with folks like ted cruz across the country. >> i happen to believe that in america the people still have power. congressman allred, thank you for joining us today. when we return, folk, we'll finish out the year with something special. part of nicolle's in depth interview with january 6th vice chair liz cheney. that is coming up after a short break. z cheney that is coming up after a short break.

it's the last "deadline white house" of 2023, and as a special way to bring in the new year, we'll be bringing you nicolle's full interview with former congresswoman liz cheney from earlier this month on monday. they cover a lot of ground from cheney's experience on january 6th to her subsequent role as a key member on the house select committee to what the future holds for the twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president running again. this time somehow angrier than ever and even bigger threat to democracy than ever before. here's just a little piece of their can't-miss conversation on the threat that is donald trump. >> just with your vast knowledge of threats that are fostered and furthered by permission structure for extreme, adjacent

to the acceptance of political violence, adjacent to conspearies and lies, what is the threat, what is your warning? >> you know, the threat is exactly what you've just laid out. the threat is that this is a man that we -- we don't have to guess what he would do. in some ways the extreme nature of the claims that he's making, of the lies he's telling, of the calling for general milley, to be executed, those things are so extreme that what happens sometimes in our body politic people ignore it. people say, well, that's just him. and i think that the challenge we're facing now is very clearly understanding and recognizing he means what he says. the people who invaded the capitol, frankly, on january 6th, you know, you can look at scores of those defendants who have said specifically we came because he told us to come, where he told us to do this. he knows that people will follow his instructions, and if he's elected again, those guardrails,

those individuals, for example, who stopped him won't be there. and think about what it means to have a president who won't enforce the rulings of the courts. >> it's insane. >> it will be the unraveling of our constitutional system, and i -- every time people hear my former republican colleagues talking about the weaponization of the justice department, i really urge them to stop and think about what that is. that's republicans attempting to do donald trump's bidding, attacking one of the most foundational and important aspects of our republic. and the judiciary has been almost without exception in this absolutely stellar in terms of understanding the importance of this threat. and i think that's been something we should be very proud of as americans that with an exception or two, it doesn't matter if these judges were appointed by democrats or republicans, same with the justices. they understand this threat, and they are conducting themselves

in -- in a fair and impartial administration of justice that the country requires. and they have to be protected against the kind of attacks that you're seeing from donald trump and republicans. >> and then to your point, i mean the 61 cases they brought, he lost all 60 because in the court of law facts to this point still mattered, and we still have this unprecedented threat from trump. he seems to have found like water an ability to work around those legal defeats. what do we do about the rest of it? >> i think there's several things. one is all of us have to make the kind of commitment that will require us to put partisanship aside. we have to say not just with respect to him but certainly with respect to trump, republicans who suggest that somehow they would be willing to support him if he were the nominee, have to be held accountable. >> that's every republican running in the primary except for chris christy. will you endorse anyone in the

primary? >> have i haven't decided yet, and i'm very conscious of not hurting someone by endorsing them. again, the idea you would say you're going to support a convicted felon if he in fact is convicted, which some of them has suggested. >> every one of them has suggested except for chris christy. have you talked to chris christie about endorsing him? >> i want to keep our discussions private. but, again, i'm not endorsing someone, and i don't want to do that in a way that could potentially help trump. >> would trump or someone who will pardon him or excuse him, would you vote for joe biden? >> i'm going to do whatever i have to do to defeat him. >> trump? >> to defeat trump. and we don't know yet exactly who the candidates are going to be. and so i think that that's the kind of thing that will become clearer certainly in the next couple of months. but i certainly would never vote for donald trump again. and i'll do whatever it takes to

defeat him. >> you're campaigning for some of the democrats who you served with in the armed services committee, wildly successful. you are a powerful voice. you are more than a political player. you're sort of this clarion call for doing the right thing. i know there's some reporting that you'd consider running yourself on the third party ticket. is that something that you will consider even if it has the impact of aiding trump? >> no. i would not do anything that's going to help him. and i think we're at this unprecedented moment where our system for so long has meant that we've got a republican candidate and democratic candidate and contemplating any kind of a third-party run was something most of us would never do. i think this is a different moment. but i'm not going to take any steps, certainly, that will help him. i do think it's really important, though, that again in a bipartisan, nonpartisan

fashion, we work to defeat donald trump, we also work to defeat election deniers. the threat of electing people who have the ability to determine whether elections are certified, for example, who say they'll only honor elections that they agree with the outcome, that also undermines our democracy. >> i don't know about you, but i need to see this entire interview again. we can all watch it. nicole's entire interview with liz chainny this monday, new year's day, 4:00 p.m. eastern. great way to start the year. a quick break for us, and we will be right back. plus odor protection. try for under $5!

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as we close out the year, here i something to look forward to in 2024. opal lee, the woman affectionately known as the grandmother of juneteenth, is finally getting back the land where her home once stood in fort worth, texas, almost 85 years after it was all burned down by a racist mob, all while police stood by. trinity habitat for humanity has gone one step further. a house is being built for lee and expected to be completed sometime in the coming year. miss opal lee garnered attention in 2016 when she asked then president obama to make juneteenth a federal holiday. that finally paid off in 2021, when president biden made it official. she was even nominated for a know bell peace prize last year. it is a long-awaited happy ending and a start towards justice.

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thank you so much for spending this friday afternoon with us. we hope all of you have a very happy new year. you can catch my sw weekends at 4:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc and new original episodes on mondays on peacock. and starting on january 13th, join me and two of my besties on saturday and sunday mornings, 8:00 a.m. eastern, on "the weekend." "the beat with ari melber" starts right now.