>> when are you going to call me? >> this week. >> okay. >> okay. >> okay, if you want to connect with me, you can always go to ari melber.com and put in your email address to sign up for my free newsletter. you go to our email burke to calm, and it will take you exactly to where i run my newsletter, and you can put in my email address, if you're into that sort of thing. i've always enjoyed keeping up with folks interested and what we do. again, we want to wish you a very happy holidays, a restful time, with loved ones and family and a good new year. i hope you have a great weekend. we'll be back at it, back at work next week, so keep in touch with us right here at msnbc. greetings everyone, it's 4:00 here in washington d.c.. i am symone sanders-townsend in for nicole wallace. and then there were two, two states where the disgraced twice impeached four times indicted ex president has been

kicked off the ballot, or at least kicked off the ball pending appeal. more proof that donald j trump is having a hard time shaking the i word, insurrection. and that the republican front runner is heading into the new year with section three of the 14th amendment nipping at his seals. first, there was colorado. now, its main saying that trump is disqualified from being on the ballot. let's not forget that more than a dozen other states, with the 14th amendment have cases pending. 14 amid cases. the new ruling by the secretary of state's as inspiring as it is somber. quote, i conclude, as did the colorado supreme court that the record establishes that mr. trump, over the course of several months and culminating on january 6th, 2021, used a false narrative of election fraud to blame his supporters and direct them to the capitol to prevent certification of the 2020 election, and the peaceful transfer of power. i likewise conclude that mr. trump was aware of the

likelihood for violence and an initially supported its use, given he both encouraged it with his incendiary rhetoric and took no timely action to stop it. the way of the evidence makes clear that mr. trump was aware of the tender, late by his multiple month effort to de-legitimate lies a democratic election and then chose to light a match. i do not reachthis conclusion lightly. democracy is secured, and the ice core of the state has repeatedly recognize that no right is more precious and a free country than that of having a voice in the election of those who make the laws under which, as good citizens, we must live. i am mindful that no secretary of state has ever deprived the presidential candidate a ballot access based on section two at the 14th amendment. i am also mindful, however, that no presidential candidate has ever before engaged in an insurrection. to nobody surprise, donald trump through a temper tranche from over maine's decision to

give him the boot, but he did not to stop there, folks. he went on his social media site, where he posted a link, directing's followers to the main secretary of state's official website, and website that lists her phone number and address. i wonder what donald trump possibly could have wanted to achieve by pushing the? we are going to draw your own conclusions, but if passes prologue, the main secretary of state could soon be on the receiving end of not just complaints from trump loyalists but threats, as we saw with the colorado supreme court justices, who received an onslaught of death threats, following their ruling. , now it is worth noting that the new ruling out of maine and the ruling out of colorado, that they are both in legal limbo. the corado republican party as already done trump a solid by appealing that states ruling to the supreme court. and, the former president has a vowed to appeal this ruling out of maine. meanwhile, donald trump did not

catch a win in the democratic stronghold of california, where the secretary of state ruled that donald trump can stay on california's gop primary ballot. there are a lot of moving parts. but this one thing is clear, folks. this new ruling out of maine proves that no matter how much the ex president wants to wish it all away, the 14th amendment is very much a clear and present danger to donald trump's efforts to return to power. and that is where we start with the aforementioned main secretary of state, shanna bellows. madam secretary, i want to thank you so much for being here. i actually want to start by asking about something that i just mentioned in our set up. are you and your team receiving any threats? just not in the wake of the ruling, but specifically in the wake of the ex president posting a link to the official website with their contact information? >> first, thank you for having me. i deeply appreciate it. i just want to share that my

decision is by the blue rule of law and constitution. that is my only consideration. this is part of the process here in the state of maine. and i hope everyone will be civil, will be respectful and will follow the process and law. >> madam secretary -- >> the events on january six -- yeah, go ahead. i'm sorry, go ahead. >> i just wanted to know, i watched you on our network and others last night in the aftermath of your ruling, and you very much so, as you laid out in your decision, you went through great lengths to explain your process. you used somber language in the decision and in your conversations last night and just now -- i am wondering, given all the links that you have gone through, i know you take this very seriously, what the former

president did yesterday, i can't infer what his reasoning was behind it, but did you feel like you are in any danger, and are you all receiving threats given the posts that he made? >> i am not comfortable discussing my own personal security and, indeed, my own security and safety is not a consideration in this matter. we are a country of laws. our oath that we swear is to support the constitution of the united states, and the laws of our country. as we engage in this process, what is important is the meaning of the constitution, the facts before us, and that interpretation. there can be no other consideration. and i think that is really important, that this process is a legal process. the in that state's constitution gives states the

authority to administer elections, and states, in turn, can pass laws that were getting into authority, which the main legislature as on to the secretary of state, and that is why mean voters have a right to bring a challenge to any candidates qualifications, and they did so. we held a hearing on december 15th, and i made a decision because i was obligated to buy the law and the oath i took to the constitution. and the next step is to the superior court. and then to the -- maine judicial court, and potentially the u.s. judicial court. that is our process, that is our rule of law, that is what we need to uphold and follow, no matter what. >> can we talk a little bit more about your decision. you suspended your decision until a court rules on any appeal, which means that trump's name stays on the ball for now. why did you build that into

your decision and eerily? >> given the compressed timeline, given the constitutional questions and the complexities, it's a ballot question, but it's important to follow the process. the supreme court has until january 15th to issue a ruling, should mr. trump appeal. that is why i suspended the effect of my decision, until the appeals at the superior court rules, or until the superior appeal expires. >> in this ruling, you also seem to preemptively take him at something that critics of yours are already seizing upon, that you are a democrat. you write, quote, my decision is based exclusively on the record before me, and it has a no weapon influenced by my political foolish affiliation or personal views about the events of january six. madam secretary, what do you say to those out there who are doggedly insisting that your

finding is politically motivated? >> i encourage everyone to read my decision, just as you have, and to assess those arguments. i made my decision exclusively based on the evidence at that hearing and the record in this proceeding, because that is my application. so my political affiliation, my personal views of the events of january six, 2021, have no bearing on the. they can. >> maine secretary of state bellows, thank you for joining us. with that, folks, i want to bring in our panel, law scholar and president at mount -- daniel khalife. plus former deputy assistant attorney general and former attorney general harry litman. with me at the table, former democratic congresswoman, donna edwards. danielle, let's dig into this, this ruling out of maine. we have just heard from the secretary of state there. i will, know it's different

than what we saw in colorado. because the main, coming from the secretary of state in colorado, this became -- this ruling came from the supreme court, the state supreme court. what happens now? and do you think that this changes the equation for the supreme court? are they more urgent now because maine has also weighed in? >> i think we are at a very different stage than maine. this is as you said, secretary bellows an initial decision. it has to wind its way first through the main court and then to the u.s. supreme court, if former president trump appeals. we're much earlier in the process. we know that the colorado supreme court decision has already teed this up for the u.s. supreme court, as a question, so, we are just much earlier in the process for maine, but if this is upheld in the main court, it will go indecent arson, i predict, which is an appeal to the u.s. supreme court. >> harry, what's your reaction

to the main ruling? is there anything that stood out particularly to you? >> first, i think it's a very methodical and comprehensive, and it's true. exactly as she says, it's the initial holding by the secretary of state, but it's at their very thorough. in particular, there's one issue, the definition of officer under section three of the 14th amendment, that i think is even more comprehensive and marshals a fair bit of historical evidence in support of the same conclusion as the colorado supreme court. the biggest point to me, simone, is just the fact of it. we now have two examples, and the president is right. maine is not right for the supreme court, but the supreme court now knows that there are different ways states can reach the same conclusion, and it means if they are worried about consistency across the country, they are going to have to deal with a comprehensive federal solution, not simply just review colorado's case.

>> this is so true. okay, donna, this is true. this is very true. there's a lot happening. we have not even talked about all of these other pending section three, 14th amendment cases across the country in different states, but the nation is watching to see what happens here. do you feel like this is pouring gasoline on the fire in some respect, because the reality is, the ongoing 14th amendment challenge is not just a conversation. there are legal proceedings that are happening. there are decisions and rulings being made, and it's intersecting right in the middle, right up into our political process. i mean, voters in iowa are going to the polls in less than two weeks. >> what you are hearing our ballots being printed. there's early voting in some of the states. look, i think we all can't weigh around to figure out what is going to happen with these court cases. core cases are going to proceed inevitably, the supreme court has to take a look at this.

he cannot have his varying interpretations of one constitutional provision in different states. so, we are not going to be able to wade that process out. voters will take to the polls, and i think that, politically, it really behooves all of us to beat donald trump, whether he's on the ballot or not. depending on how that happens. we can't like rely on the courts to do the job of the voters. >> do you think that these 14th amendment challenges are a distraction for democrats? >> i don't think so. i think democrats will stay focused on the main goal, getting the house and senate back, without keeping the senate. and, of course, keeping the presidency. i don't think there is anything to send it the way of. it frankly, there is nothing that democrats or republicans can do about a court process and win its way into the supreme court. i'll say, democrats stay focused, stay focused on what

the goal is and let the court process work its way. >> look, donald trump has civil and criminal cases. he's got these election cases. he will be all over the courts everywhere. democrats should just play their own game. >> literally all over the courts. lots of indictments. daniel, i want to read something for the main ruling, and i encourage everyone to read it, because i just think it was so well done, and i want to get your reaction to this. quote, mr. trump's occasional request that rioters be peaceful and support law enforcement, not immunize his actions. to abate a lot is not a risk over the course of months, culminating in a speech on the ellipse. daniel, she seems to be saying that trump eventually -- does not actually cut or absolve him. is that legally sound to you, madam president? >> i think there are several key questions under section three of the 14th amendment. first is, did you participate

in an insurrection? that is why the detailed analysis of what the former president did on january six is a very important. so, you had a question of, did he participate, engage an insurrection, as the law says, and the question of, is he an officer of the kind of intent intended under the section three of the 13th amendment. there are a lot of novel legal questions under section 13 of the 14th amendment. this is a difficult case for either side, as they are arguing eventually in front of the supreme court. >> harry, let's put the map up again. if the supreme court except the question of the 14th amendment, and we expect that it will, is there a legal magic bullet that was shut down all the other 14th amendment cases that are waiting in the wings, and what will you be watching for if and when the supreme court weighs in? >> i think that really is the

important question. some people are talking about, how do you define insurrection? they could narrow the definition, but then another state could say, thank you for that and pick up the narrow definition. they want this case like a rookie now, but there is probably going to be stuck with it. i think that there are two kinds of arguments in the offing that would be global for them. the first would-be to say, he's not an officer under that amendment. that was shut everything down. the second would be to say that the meaning of this provision, anyway, is that congress has to decide who is in and who is out. that would also apply across the board. those are the two global solutions that i think would be within their reach. >> all right, danielle, before i let you go, we talked about california, it seems counterintuitive to some people watching that a democratic stronghold like california has decided that donald trump can stay on the ballot, and that california secretary of state, shirley webber, who like the main secretary of state is a

democrat, she said that removing trump from the ballot under the 14th amendment, quote, it's not something that my office takes lightly, and is not as simple as a requirement that person be at least 35 years old to be president. so, she's harkening back to a number of the things that other individuals out there have set about requirements to be on the ballot while running for president. do you think that ruling in california could be used as fodder or ammunition by trump's legal team in their efforts to appeal to the colorado and maine rulings? >> i am sure that the president's former legal team will use california, minnesota, michigan, all the pieces that have gone in his favor, to try to argue that essentially, this is a political question and should be left to the voters. i think the problem with the argument is that section three of the 14th amendment exists, which means that, based on the rule of law and what we see in our democracy, courts need to answer this question, regardless of the fact that, as donna said, the process will move forward.

but the legal questions must be answered, and the constitutional questions at the bedrock of our democracy and our rule of law. >> indeed, daniel halle, thank you so much for spending time or thus. harry, will be back a little later. y'all, don't worry, donna is sticking around. when we come back, republicans are rushing to donald trump's defense, after they took him off the primary ballot, even some of his competitors for the nomination. plus, we'll take a look at a case that charge not just donald trump but 18 of his allies in a sweeping, racketeering indictment. what is next for fulton county d.a. fani willis and her election case? and later in the program, there is new reporting on just how far -- is willing to go to get the election results overturned in january six? how trump's lawyers turned to a senator and congressman to help them in the days before the insurrection. all of those stories and more, when that signed white house continues after this. don't go anywhere. anywhere.

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>> help --

>> they were peaceful people. these were great people. the crowd was unbelievable. did i mention they weren't love. the love in the air, i have never seen anything like it. >> it is worth for member just how dark that day was in american history. the sheer carnage unleashed by a mob with one purpose and one purpose only, to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. and as the january 6th select committee made abundantly clear, that mob was summoned and assembled but donald trump himself, who then a flame of a tack. and other words, donald trump, incited a veiled insurrection against united states of america. so it really does smack of deliberate dishonesty here his primary opponents say stuff like this. >> well the idea that one bureaucrat in an executive position could unilaterally

disqualify someone from office, that turns on its head every notion of constitutional due process, that this country has always abide by for over 200 years. it opens a pandora's box. >> rhonda santos went on to ask what they're a republican secretary of state ought to disqualify president biden from the ballot, because of the state of undocumented immigration in america. i think what he fails to recognize or if uses to recognize, rather, is a simple truth. things like border security are matters of policy, to be shaped by whomever the american people elected. but an insurrection, like the one that donald trump set into motion, it is right there in the constitution. he took an oath and then engaged in a failed coup. those are remarks from around desantis, they only accent a pattern that the rest of us have already observed. trump's primary opponents, who only stand to gain from such constitutional consequences, jumping to his defense over and over again. joining our conversation is

senior political reporter from pop news, tara palmieri. joining down at the table is a messy nbc political analyst, cornell belcher. tara, all of donald trump had to do was not incite an insurrection, and then, he would be perfectly fine, be eligible and the ball in colorado and maine. there would be no challenges with all the other states. can you explain the difference between taking off the ball over complaints at the border, as ron desantis described and what is happening to donald trump. >> i mean, i think his argument is very farfetched. i think it seems a little strange but not surprising, because none of the republican opponents to trump have been able to charge him directly. they think that his argument that he's a victim is actually strong argument for him, and they don't see anything to gain by attacking trump, when he is under legal scrutiny, even chris christie, who has

actually gone after trump directly, he refuses to take on trump, when these legal cases come out, and they show that trump could be disqualified from the election. they say they rather be in and about, but, again, they don't really go after him there either. i think it shows that the republican primary voters don't really care about these legal cases, and they calculated that trump can still win reelection with these court cases. perhaps, they may help him, as we saw, this poll numbers were low, and the indictment started happening. his opponent stood by him, and he kept rising up in the polls, to the point he is now. >> it's so strange to me, because, i worked a lot of campaigns. we have all covered campaigns, campaigns about competition, and there seems to be a lack of real competition within this republican presidential primary. and then to put a cherry on top of it, republicans writ large, especially in the house in the united states congress, are

trying to impeach president biden over the hunter biden story, despite zero proof that the president did anything wrong. frankly, misunderstanding the real definition of what is needed to bring an impeachment. do you expect a similar degree of retribution, if you will, over this? is this what ron desantis is trying to give voice to? >> i don't know, he has not really fully gone after president joe biden in the impeachment inquiry. they have really attacked him quite yet on that, i think it depends on what happens in this race. if ron desantis loses, if after iowa or new hampshire, he may be angling to join the trump cabinet or be a running mate or something like that, and he may be more aggressive and go and attack joe biden more ferociously. he may also try to defend trump legally. everybody is probably thinking about what the next step is. we're about a month away. they're pretty stagnant in the

polls. there is really not an aggressive risk going on, at least not in iowa, where he stands to possibly, if any of the states, to perform. so, i think, that eventually, they'll have to turn their fire away from donald trump into joe biden, but they are only going to have as much as the congress can show, whether an impeachment inquiry. so far, they have not had much to show, and they really only have until late spring, because that, that there will be two prime many primaries going. on the election will be in full swing, nobody will pay attention to it anymore. i don't think it will make it to the senate or trial. >> i want to read this reminder from the new york times. i want to quote them. mr. desantis had previously suggested that the ruling in colorado up in part to solidify the republican support of the primary. he also said that mr. trump's criminal indictment had second of the oxygen out of the race. cornell, is this a master plot by the democrats to get trump

off the ballot or, you know, is it an unconstitutional attempt? what is it? what is going on, or did donald trump engage in insurrection? >> i think he engaged in insurrection, and nobody is about the law, supposedly, in our country. i want to pay attention to the centers on this. to go back to your point, it's hard to see how desantis is actually running the beat donald trump. and, look, we're campaign people. you have gone to a couple of campaigns in your life as well. and campaign 101, in order to beat the person ahead of you, you actually had to make a heart contrasts, or at some point, hit them. what you have seen from this field, except for chris christie, is an unwillingness to ever take on donald trump -- i don't take rhonda said this is campaign searcy. he is not trying to run to beat donald trump. i don't know what he is running to do, but he's never going to beat donald trump if he does not actually strike a hard contrast and take donald trump on. he shot a little ability to do

that, and that is why he is following. >> nobody in this race sands chris christie has been willing to criticize donald trump directly and pick him head on. we talked yesterday on the show about chris christie and ran the ad he is playing in new hampshire about donald trump and the danger he poses to democracy. i want to play for you although what he said about the main ruling, let's play it right now. >> if it makes him a martyr. he's very good playing poor me, poor me. he's always complaining. the poor billionaire from new york, who is spending everyone else's money to pay his legal fees, for me. but when stuff like this happens, you know, they should be the cited by the voters that the united states. it should not be decided by courts. >> so, cornell, that is a bit of a different tone. do you agree and, furthermore, doesn't matter? should it matter? if that is what he will do? >> ultimately, i don't think it will matter, because republican voters were locked in.

i think a lot at this is baked in. i'll say this before and i'll say it again, actually donald trump said it, i could spend in time it's times square, should someone and not lose support. he'll get his support. right, they're locked in. the quest for me is not about whether he is on trial or he is disqualified, he is going to get his 46 47%. the question is, is the biden campaign going to be able to, once again, organize and mobilize the majority of voters around him in order to feed him on battleground states? >> what is the answer to that question? >> that, i think they have a pathway. look, i am and a bomber guy. you know i've been in a bubble guy. >> america knows, cornell. >> i work on his campaign. i think joe biden has a better story to tell for reelection than a bomb of it, and again, not taking anything away from obama, who is extraordinary. but look at the legislation. we went to reelection with aca. aca was underwater, and a lot

of your colleagues took an awful beating for the vote on aca. this president goes into reelection with stories about environment and manufacturing and legislation, transformative legislation, that, quite frankly, we are not going to win reelection with. i think he's got a great story to tell, but, god, i wish they would start telling it. >> on one hand, you have the 47%, right, and cornell knows the numbers better than anybody i know. but, donna, i am concerned about the fact that republicans seem just unwilling to upset what they believe as the majority of republican primary voters, donald trump's faced by criticizing them in any way, shape or form, for fear of, one, they're driving the bus. for fear that they are going to want retribution at the end of it. are you concerned about that? are you concerned about what would happen, let's say if donald trump was the nominee,

that's what it's tracking towards. let's say the supreme court weighs in, are you concerned about what this could mean for further polarization and what people would do to act on the polarization? >> i have been concerned since january six in the run up to the 2020, in the 2020 election, that we are facing a certain -- at this country, that we have not seen in generations, to challenge our democratic processes and institutions. so, it's a long term concern, but i do think the voters are motivated by this idea of preserving and protecting democracy. we actually saw that in 2018. we saw it again in 2020. joe biden has played to the. i think that is a strength because, especially for independent voters, that's an important component. only democrats could stand -- there is not a single

republican, maybe chris christie, that sent on the side of democracy, because they have all been in defense of donald trump, and donald trump's anti democratic behavior. i think that there will be few opportunities in these next several months to try to coalesce that vote that cornell talked about. but biden does have a story to tell. it is time to start telling. >> all right, we will leave it there, periplanarity, or about or and donna edwards, thank you all for spending time with us and making a plane. coming up for us, the fulton county election case gave us tearful confessions, drama in court and the first-ever presidential mugshot. we'll talk about what comes next for d.a. fani willis and her efforts to hold trump world accountable. e. but i like this. get a light scent that lasts with no heavy perfumes or dyes. ( ♪ ♪ )

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reaction when his cadre of advisers would say, we loss? >> it was like, well, they will say that, and then they would walk out. he would go, see, this is what i deal with all the time. >> if i knew then what i know now, i would have declined to represent donald trump in these post election challenges. i look back on this whole experience with deep remorse. >> those were just some of the absolute bombshells in recent months to come out at the sleeping charges in georgia. ever since she charged the ex

president and 18 codefendants in office of engaging in racketeering conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election, the a fani willis has secured a series of major winds, plea deals from board defendants, former trump allies, and as the atlanta journal of constitution points out, pretty big fish to begin with, as she works her way up. not to mention the first and only mugshot of a former u.s. president, all while holding her own against republican jim jordan's outrageous demands and political accusations. and it's not forget the failed attempt by five defendants, including trump's former chief of staff to bring these cases to federal court. we are back with harry litman. harry, quite the year for district attorney finally willis. i think there is so much to choose from. what stood out to you? >> first, she really has, as you say, held her own. i think it is the way that she started bag and has begun to make no doubt and be clear that at least trump and meadows and

giuliani are not getting deals. i think there might be three others. there are 15 total, but a lot of them are genuine small fry in georgia electors. i think we could see a whole castle of police, once the trial is imminent. right now, it's set for august. it's kind of a late date that she chose. even the judge has given some -- expressed some interest and moving it up. if she doesn't, given how long it will take, no way it finishes before november. >> so, i think that this is an interesting point, harry. there were lots of defendants who turned down plea deals, and you noted that you could see more people flipping, but whenever this case comes to fruition, i mean, in the current racketeering case that fani willis is trying in georgia, it took ten months to do jury selection their. do you foresee the same thing happening here? >> you know, ten months is a

long time. i don't see, that but if you take her four month estimate, and you at on jury selection, however long the defense case takes, they had to start by the spring to have any shot of finishing. i do think it will have simplified, because the big thing about this case, symone, is everybody has the same exposure. everyone charge has been part of the r.i.c.o.. the smaller actors are facing big exposures. i think when we are looking at the eve of trial, you'll see them plead in the same way that we saw the other four plead already. it's a sprawling trial, the jury selection is not going to be easy, and as of now, it does not look like it can finished before november. when everyone is starting to look at it, because the other big case that could, the january 6th case, may itself be delayed. that is the on deck case, as it were. >> i mean, fani willis, she has been at it before.

who knows what she has a perceived. if we talk about that report and testimony that out, what do you think that that tells us about what the defendants actually gave prosecutors, especially those folks, again, that flipped? >> yeah, the ones that pleaded, including chesebro, that we learned more about a city. meadows, in particular, but, really, all three of the top dogs here, trump, meadows and giuliani. it's almost hard to see how they escape of their then by jury nullification. remember, the jury pool here is a little bit more pro trump, based on voters, say, than other jury pools might be, but her evidence is really strong, and the way that she has charged it gives her maximum ability to marshal all kinds of evidence and proof starting at the election, moving all the way through. i don't think any of these defendants really are seeing a path to acquittal, i just can't see it.

they are looking to delay, maybe they're hoping for jury nullification, but she's got a case that is very hard to be. >> all right, we will be watching. harry litman, thank you for spending some time with us. >> thanks a lot. >> after the break, russia steps up its assault on ukraine, as the biden administration says what it could be the last batch of aid to congress. can't strike it to. can't strike it to

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it the largest assault since the war began. more than 100 missile and drone strikes across ukraine, hitting schools, hospitals and homes. the attack killed at least 30 people and injured 160 according to officials. ukraine received a partial aid package to cover their immediate taryeeds. this week, $2lionn weapons. and much a 61 billion doid package is currently being held up by republicans in congress. this afternoon, president biden urged congress to p th package to the new year, calling the latest attack a stark reminder ld t after nearly two years of this devastating war, pu subjective remains unchanged. he seeks to obline and subjugate its people. he must be stopped. unless congress takes urgent action in the new year, we will not be able to continue sending the weapons and vital air defense systems ukraine needs to protect its people. joining us now, retired four

star general and msnbc military analyst, barry mccaffrey. general mccaffrey, is it any quid incidents that russia ramps up its attacks, as funding is out set to run out from the united states? >> that is probably part of it. it's not just the second one billion dollar u.s. package that congress has failed to act on. the european union at a 58 billion dollar package held up by hungary's veto of the day. ukraine is in terrible trouble, without military, economic and, indeed, humanitarian aid, they can't possibly resist this criminal russian attack on their sovereignty. i might add, as you look at the situation, which was sparked by putin's rage, that he lost a another major combat ship, to the ukrainian air force, so the russians are doing very badly.

their economy is in trouble, but they have the support of north korea, iran and, for that matter, to some extent, china, and they are going to muscle ukraine by obliteration, if we don't support them. >> you know, general, i think a lot of folks here these numbers and say, 58 billion is a lot of money. 61 billion, a lot of money. why is this eight so necessary for ukraine? what kind of age are we talking about that they need to make it to the next year? >> to some extent, it's a small country, giant land area, small western european country. it sucks alliance with the european union with western values. but on its own, it can't fight a war against a larger russian military, never mind, 100 million more people. so, european union, for example,

was essentially paying the salaries of public service workers in ukraine, and, also, adding humanitarian aid, millions fled the fighting as refugees and their own country. most in the eastern donbas, many odom left as refugees. never mind the military problem. by the way, the military problem, has changed. this is not desert storm armor warfare, overwhelm u.s. air power. this is a war of drones, artillery mainz, it resembles to some extent, an 8000 kilometer front, it looks more like world war i, with advanced technology then armored blitzkrieg. so, it's really a tricky, complex and dangerous situation, where our u.s. national

security interests are at stake. >> do you think that the calculus for putin and the russian military changes as the in that estates heads into an election year? could donald trump returning be, returning as a presidential candidate, embolden putin in any way? >> i have never understood this whole relationship between mr. trump and putin. putin is eight out, a murderer. he's gotten the russian federation in terrible trouble economically and politically. he stamped out free speech, so, why mr. trump seems to be in lead with this desperado is hard to understand. yes, putin and, for that matter, other criminal enterprises, like the north koreans, are actively hoping to have mr. trump back in office, where in my personal opinion, he would

be devastatingly bad for u.s. national security. >> general barry mccaffrey, thank you for joining us. a quick break, folks, and we will be right back. be right back

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ultimately i believe this is about protecting human life. >> that was ohio's republican governor, mike dewine, expanding what he vetoed a bill that would have restricted transitioning care for minors and transgender girls participation on school sports team. the winds vito is one of those things that might make sense to you and me, but it is and unfortunately rare move from a republican governor, as bans on gender affirming care has swept ther the last few years. 22 states have laws on the books that impa not young people get the gender affirming care that they need. the ohio general assembly, controlled by a republican super majority, can override governor dewine's veto with a three fifths majority vote. we'll be dick keeping an eye on a high of four. you coming up next hour, at that time at the white house, trump attorney kenneth chesebro has flipped, and he's got a lot

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individuals to keep -- and got them the call themselves electors, create a phony significance, associated with the fake electors and then transmitted the certificates to washington and to the congress to be counted during the joint session of congress on january six. none of this work. but according to federal district judge david carter,

former president trump and others likely violated multiple federal laws by engaging in this scheme, including conspiracy to defraud the in that estates. >> hi again, everyone, it is 5:00 in washington d.c., and i am symone sanders-townsend, in for nicole wallace. the fake elector scheme was an illegal attempt for dominick to cling to power. an effort across several states to get then vice president mike 's pants and alternate a crook slate of electors to -- ultimately, they did not interfere in the electoral college certification, but from the work at the 16 select committee and various other reporting, we know how deep this plan when. now, a new report from cnn reves en more how far these trump allies went in pursuit of the scheme. nbc news has not matched the reporting. it finds that when there was concern that the fake elector certificates from two critical

battleground states were stuck in the mail on their way to the capitol, quote, trump campaign operative scrambled to find copies of the phony certes from michigan and wisconsin to the nation's capital, relying on a haphazard chain of carriers, as well as help from two republicans in congress, to try to get the documents to then vice president mike pence, while he presided over the electoral college certification. these details come mostly from the architect of the fake elector plot himself, kenneth chesebro. who pleaded guilty in october 2020, felony conspiracy charge in georgia and as also met with prosecutors in michigan, nevada and wisconsin, for investigating the fake electors and their own states. here ischebro describing the prosecutors in michigan, the panic among the trump campaign staffers days before january six. >> while he wasecking the tracking, these are tracking, yeah. what'sen more alarming is ol point of the archivists getting to, is that

one is reserved for the president of the senate case, the problem with the mail. it h gotten to the archivists either, so the logical asot available. so yeah, so the general counsel campaignalmed and was chartering. n'have to chartera jet, but they did not commerci >> well it says that on the email -- >> i forget, i forget, i forget they chartered, buts, this is a high-level decision to get thechan and wisconsin votes there. and they had to enlist a u.s. senator to try and expedite it to try and get it to pence and time. >> the senator he is referring to, republican senator ron johnson of wisconsin, who when asked for comment by cnn irritated his previous comments would set my involvement into attempted to spanned a couple of seconds. in the end, those electors were not delivered. this new reporting providing a

window into the last-ditch anti-democratic attempts by trump allies to keep the former president in power, despite the election debate, one that special counsel jack smith emphasizes in his indictment, where he charged trump with conspiracy to defraud the country and obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. and that is where we start this hour with former congressman from florida, msnbc and political analysts, jaded jolly. former federal prosecutor and msnbc news legal analyst, paul butler. say that five times, paul. and former fbi counter intelligence agent, peter strzok. and also, the president of the national action network and host of politicsnation here on msnbc, the great reverend al sharpton. david, talk about the length, i mean, this reporting from cnn's suggests stunning. the blanks that the trump campaign went to, the trump allies, in order to have the fake elector certificates at the capitol on january six.

>> yeah, simone, first, something that we don't focus on, how dirty is ron johnson and all of this? he does all of these interviews, kind of place up this whole, i was protecting election integrity, but he was very much involved in this. ron johnson kind of sitting in the u.s. senate as one of the chief conspirators is something that i think we often overlook, but i also think that all of the information from the phone calls that were made to the election -- in michigan, to this effort of how we shuttle a slate of alternate electors to the u.s. senate, it all actually goes to defeat a fundamental claim of defense of donald trump. recall donald trump's immunity claim, the one that he lost in the d.c. circuit, that jack smith once heard and the supreme court and ultimately will be. it is that somehow donald trump was engaged in activities related to the author perimeter of the presidency. that is not this. you can picture a world in

which the president is interested in fair and free elections. an administration free and fair elections. but in that case, a president would do what we saw kind of with bush and gore. before they were presidents. they would have james baker or ward christopher to ensure that the proper administration of elections happen. that is not. this this is the direct influence of a president trying to rig elections in georgia and michigan and wisconsin and other states to get himself more votes. i think all of this information and details ultimately serve to defeat the fundamental defense of donald trump, which is somehow, he was engaged in the presidents plan and therefore immune. no, he wasn't. all of this of mission suggest it's not. >> it's just so undemocratic, p, we know that chef kenneth chesebro's unindicted coconspirator number five. is there anything we know about the federal investigators?

this testimony to michigan legislatures -- army, to michigan officials, is quite astonishing. >> it's certainly interesting, simone, given the detail that came out with these recordings. one of the interesting things included in that report is a statement from, chesebro's attorney's, saying that they had approached jack smith several months ago, asked to come in and speak to them. and they have received a response. what is interesting, for a couple of reasons, we know that chesebro has been charge in fulton county. in your reporting, as you indicated, he spoke to folks in nevada, wisconsin and michigan. he's not shying away from prosecutors. he's not shying away from sitting down and giving sworn testimony. but it is curious that jack smith, whose team has been chasing rudy giuliani, has not been pursuing chesebro. on the one hand, that speaks to just the huge amount of alleged crime, the vast complexity across state after state after state that jack smith has to look at. it could be that investigators,

prosecutors want to get as much information as they can before they take chesebro up on his offer. i would certainly expect at some point, don't take him up on that offer, even if it does not result in anything, simply to see and hear what it is he has to say. >> paul, this point that p is making i think is important because the fake electors plot is a very big part of jack smith's indictment. one, can you speak to why and, to, why do you think that jack smith and his team have yet to speak to the architect of the fake elector plot, ken chesebro? >> ken jonesboro has some back itch. he is snatching now like a sworn man. he's mad because trump's top campaign guys like matt morgan and michael -- are trying to distance themselves with the big lie. to conduct after the election, rudy giuliani and kenneth chesebro were running

everything. but chesebro's -- he's, like if i am going down, i am taking everybody else with me. that's why we are getting all of these juicy details. jack smith already knows all of this. he really needs this trial to have a full election day. that's why his federal election interference case where he was most accountable, former president trump. that's why he -- chesebro is an unindicted coconspirator in the federal election interference case. he could be charged later, that's why he's attorneys right now are reaching out trying make it do. >> you know, reverend sharpton, i want you to sten to more of what chesebro has to say. he is talking to prosecutors ag michigan. >> he finds representative

perry or whoever it w, a pennsylvania, who gets a affer degree and mia said 2:45 pm. i don't know why, why we did that. mikerown -- the wisconsin stuff, mike we walked the longworthtuff ofuildg. euy with perry or whatever his name was and some other fellow. they were like, staff of the house. to walk them over to the senate, and give it to a senate staffer. i guess a senate staffer for johnson. i don't know why, logistically, they took it directly to johnson. that's how they did it. >> rev, how alarmed are you that at least one member of the house and one senator were also involved in this very illegal scheme? >> extremely alarming because we are seeing people actively try to undermine the decision

that was made by voters. i think it is also interesting that we see these reports come out, as the supreme court now is having to deal with what is happening in terms of maine taking trump off the ball. and colorado, so, don't forget all of these people were corresponding with the january six to stop the certification. the more that this comes out, i think, the more the supreme court has to look at this was an active attempt to create a false set of electors to undermine and, in many ways, they denied the american public of an election, a due process selection, which is an insurrection. in the face of all of this, it becomes more difficult at the supreme court to come back and say, we don't know if there was

an instruction here? the 14th amendment and third section or fourth section does not apply. what is an elaborate scheme, it really went all the way up to donald trump done to january six march and rally. this was because that was all to be combined with what we are hearing now to stop mike pence from having the election on the certification on that day. this all comes together. we have to make sure we understand we are not talking about an isolated incident. >> reverend sharpton makes such an important point. none of this is happening in a vacuum. pete, the danger to our democracy and the peaceful transfer of power is literally coming, coming not just from inside the white house, the house and the senate, how concerned are you about lawmakers having been caught up in this pot as well, active participants? >> it is certainly concerning to the extent that, one, not

just the involvement but, to, what extent there is any pre-planning. we know that there was a congressman to the white house in december 2020 timeframe, and so the question that i am sure investigators are looking at is not just the sort of spontaneous political activities, something that might be covered by speech or debate protections of the house or senate or the house. but, whether or not certain members of congress are actively engaged with the trump campaign in advance of january six. knowing that what they were doing was improper, knowing that what they were doing was potentially illegal, and that is what investigators will focus on. we know that several congressional communications that were argued to be protected, speech and debate, that that was overcome. jack smith has seen some of the text messages, emails and other things. there is sufficient indication that there might be illegal activity there, but anytime you see a second branch of government cooperating with the president, trying to legally maintain power, it is

tremendously concerning. >> to say the least, i mean, i don't think i need to remind anyone here that we're almost in 2024, it's a presidential election year. paul, will those involved in the scheme speed to accompany for voters go to the polls? i think that is a question that relates to the ex president. i think it speaks to a number of his lieutenants. are we going to see any accountability here? >> simone, that's up to the d.c. court of appeals and then the supreme court. the federal election interference trial is really the only one of the four prosecutions against the former president that has any hope of proceeding before election day. jack smith is making proactive motions after the court of appeals and d.c. decides the image of the issue, and the supreme court indicates what it

wants to do about that, either take the case or not. jack smith wants to hit the ground running. it's a very possible that the supreme court allows for the federal election interference trial to happen way before election day. >> rev, it feels like with every new report, every new development, there is an urgency to protect our democracy, and the urgency just becomes stronger and clear, as we barrel closer and closer to november 2024. >> you could not stress more strongly a sense of urgency as you hear how elaborate and how involved other officials were in denying the american people who the duly elected. and now, with many of them, including former president trump, facing jail, they are going to be even more desperate, which is why we need these

trials to happen before the election. and, which is why, the supreme court needs to, in my opinion, protect the whole precedent of how we will not have election interference and insurrection is deciding our president. this is as bad as it can get. i think that, rather than i will play into the narrative of two old men running against each other, we're talking about whether the democracy that this country has a purported will survive if people can steam like this and get away with it. you've got coconspirators saying this is what we do and we're going to go on election, talking about how old somebody is when we're getting ready to see people that undermined and intentionally sought to undermine the last election. now to be able to try to do it again. imagine if they get in what they will do. we will not know this country within a year or two after

donald trump will get back in the white house and they're blatantly telling us that that is what they intended to do. we are going to allow that to happen? not on my watch. >> there is more to discuss. lucky for us, no one here is going anywhere. when we return, why law enforcement concerns about threats to election workers are only getting stronger. new reporting on the specter of violence but facing in those on the front lines of democracy as we head into election year. that is next. also ahead, texas congressman colin allred was running for senate against ted cruz. he'll be our guest later in the hour. and a special encore presentation of nichols interview with former january six committee vice chair liz cheney. deadline continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. anywhere. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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iowa caucuses, the beginning of election year in urns -- and state after state across the country in the making the preparations. specifically, they are preparing for what could be an unprecedented number of threats to our democratic process. both foreign and domestic. we mentioned earlier, part of that danger comes from donald trump himself. the latest is his social media post in which he shared contact information for maine's secretary of state in the aftermath of the 14th amendment has been there. what can happen to people trump targets is already will cataloged, but it is bigger than that. the associated press today with impressive new reporting on the vast number of challenges for which election officials are preparing. quote, many of the concerns from four years ago persist -- the potential for cyberattacks are getting voter registration systems or websites that report on official results and equipment problems, or human

errors, being amplified by those seeking to undermine confidence in the outcome. add to that the fresh risks that have developed since the 2020 election and the false claims of widespread fraud being spread by former president donald trump and his republican allies. death threats elected at election workers and breaches of voting equipment inside election offices have raised questions about safety and security. we are back with david, paul, pete, and reverend sharpton. david jolly, a lot of these concerns, they go back to the big lie. there is a direct line. this nonexistent voter fraud. so, how do you put the toothpaste back in the tube? can he even put it back in the tube? >> i don't know that we do, simone. you know well that the oath of a federal official says that he will protect the nation against threats for domestic, and i think in 2016 we talked about the foreign threats. the interference of international adversaries who

wanted to tamper with the integrity of our elections. in 2020 we saw a domestic threat. the effort on january six to prevent the peaceful transfer of power and i think in 2024 we should presume that we will see both. we will see foreign and domestic threats to our own elections. it sounds like hyperbole at some points, but it really is not. we know that there are nation-state actors overseas that want to undermine our belief and the integrity of our system. but we also know, through donald trump's own words, the words that come out of his mouth, are threats of violence and intimidation and his followers and act on them like we saw on january 6th. we are entering the chaotic, but also very difficult and testing 2024 election. as a nation we are resilient enough to overcome it, but only if we are dedicated to do so. i don't know that we are today. this is going to be very tough

2024. the threats are real, we have government agencies that can protect up against what they can protect against, but at some point the voters also have to stand up and say, we also are going to stand for free and fair elections in the united states. >> we peters dark, on the topic of the threats, especially to officials, you don't have to go back to 2020. just this month the az central reports that a man, quote, is accused of threatening fbi agents, a judge, and elected officials while he was living in arizona and colorado. according to court records he made threats in an online forum called patriots dot when. the comments included derogatory remarks about current and former federal officials who, and thomas said, should be tortured and killed, according to a redacted copy of the indictment. the defendant also expressed his desire to rape a female member of congress. the indictment states. peter, how clued in is law enforcement to stop stuff like this, especially ahead of an

election? is there a new unit, potentially, that is being stood up just to deal with us? >> well, there is. one of the most chilling things that i have heard the fbi director wray say recently that the fbi has created an entire unit, essentially, detracts to fbi personnel. but one of them, an extra additional chilling things, is this indictment of tamassee, he knows that at the very beginning of the indictment of the investigation was the result of a tip by a nonprofit organization that was looking for threats online. i started out in the fbi looking at domestic terrorism and there are severe limitations for first amendment reasons about what the fbi could do to track and protect what was considered protected speech. those limitations are still there today. but when you look at the things that he said, it was not just rape, it was the words that he used. he wouldn't want to write this congresswoman for sexual gratification, he wanted to put her through it so that she could experience the horror of the violent right. he talked about posting a video

that what he called is, let's go brandon dance, which is him dancing with a two fire arms. i can't even repeat on air the things he said about wanting to do the fbi agents. but the fact of the matter is that we are talking, it seems so often, about the violence that could happen. we need to stop. the violence is happening right now. it is ongoing right now. as best i can tell, when you look at the people who are engaging in it, by far and away they are people based on their own statements who are aligned with donald trump and, in my mind, are absolutely taking their cues from his statements, from his posts on social media, and pursuing violent action as a result. >> paul butler, i want to play something from the january 6th committee hearings. this is michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson. it's her experience after the 2020 election. >> stop the steal! stop the steal! stop the steal! you are a threat to democracy.

you are a threat to free and honest elections. >> we love our rights and our freedoms! [inaudible] you're a tyrant, you're a felon, and you must turn yourself into the authorities immediately. >> the uncertainties that was what was the fear. like, are they coming with guns? are they going to attack my house? i'm in here with my kid, you know, i'm trying to put him to bed. so that was the scariest moment. just not knowing what was going to happen. >> paul, the fear in her voice as she described it is a palpable. you watched that clip of folks yelling, you are a tyrant, you are a felon, you must turn yourself in immediately. this is not just normal peaceful protest. how do you go about prosecuting people intent on intimidating officials like that or, perhaps,

even worse? >> simone, for a long time i was a federal prosecutor and there has always been issues with denying the vote people of color, but the integrity of our election system has been the crown jewel of our democracy. there was a section called election crimes that people actually didn't want to work in because there was so little work. all of that has changed. why? because when they pass laws that try to eliminate same-day registration and, by they, i mean republicans, because those are the people who are trying to pass the laws, they have to tell -- about how corrupt our voting system is. that resulted in threats like the one that we just saw, and threats to people like ruby freeman and shaye moss. the irony is that, by sowing disinformation and fear, these homegrown threats are playing

directly into the hands of china and russia. >> reverend sharpton, paul just to put the finer point on it because it is not just elected officials who are facing such threats, it is election officials who are volunteers. i mean, citizens who are helping our democracy run smoothly. ruby freeman and shaye moss or targeted by donald trump and his allies and we have also seen a wave of retirements in the aftermath of 2020 and 2022 of folks who are unwilling to volunteer again, their time and talents, to make sure that our democracy runs smoothly. what is your level of worry there as we head into another consequential election? >> my worry has increased because now you are looking at people who cared nothing about electors like those two black women in fulton county. people around the country were

collateral damage to them for their objectives. but now they are not only facing the objectives because they want power, they're facing it to try to stay out of jail. many of them feel that the only way not to be in prison is for donald trump to be back in the white house and pardon himself and others. so their desperation has increased and our being cautious to alarm, -- to be in even higher gear because they will stop at nothing with us. this is why i have said that those of us who look through the lens of the civil rights movement, we face death to get to write the vote. let's remember, now, in my lifetime, i have seen people killed. -- was it killed for voter registration in mississippi. to use and a black man or mowed down, buried with her eyes open. so you need some people that

are not afraid of people that would interfere with our right to vote, who come from the bloodline of give us the right to vote in the first place. so, this is a battle for people who think they can hide behind memos, we are ready to stand up in 2024 because no one gave us the right to vote and we're not going to let them take it back without real fight. >> rally the troops, reverend sharpton. david, julie, paul butler, peter strzok, rev, thank you all for spending time with us. folks, make sure that you watch politicsnation this evening at five pm eastern. director eva duvernay is the guest on saturday. then on sunday the 13th annual ravi awards, a baltic nation special where rev and his panel celebrates the best and worst of politics in 2023 and give awards to those who deserve it. you won't want to miss it. when we return we will be joined by texas congressman colin allred. his thoughts on the decision to

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holding her own against a relentless fight by republicans in her state to force her out once again. congresswoman lucy mcbath of a prominent black lawmaker and gun safety activists says the states new congressional maps

drawn by the gop led legislature, quote, blatantly target her. the new lines approved by a federal judge yesterday create a new majority black distri after the judge found the state's previous lines diluted to the power of black voters. but the new map also dismantles mcbath's district. political points out that it's a coalition district, where, blackout you, know and asian voters currently make up for majority. therefore, imperiling mcbath's chances, forcing her to switch districts for the second election cycle in a row. for her part, mcbath says, quote, i am not going anywhere. i refused to allow an extremist view to decide when my work and congress is complete. let's bring in democratic congressman from texas, it colin allred. he's also running against ted cruz for senate next year. congressman you are a lot of hats, you are also a civil rights attorney. so what is your reaction to this move by georgia republicans in a key 2024 state making congresswoman mcbath's

district more favorable for a republican candidate? she said she is being blatantly targeted. >> thank, you simone, for having me on. i agree with lucy. i think she is being targeted. i want to go back to something that the rev said in your last segment, which is that we fought for the right to vote. we fought to pass legislation that enshrines and protected are right devote. now it is time for us to fight it and things like a partisan gerrymandering. that is what i've been trying to do with my time in congress. we passed the freedom to vote act in the last congress, we had 50 votes in the senate, we couldn't get it passed the filibuster. that would end partisan gerrymandering, as well as establish to national standards for early voting and vote by mail, how votes are counted, which we're also talking about on your last segment. were empowered by the 15th amendment to do that, which gave congress the power to enforce the article by appropriate legislation. so, listen, this time for us to stop relying on the courts to protect our values. we know the courts aren't going to --

they're not gonna be the guarantee years, the guarantors of our civil rights. now it's time to do it affirmatively through legislation. let's beat ted cruz, put me in the senate, and passing this important legislation. >> congressman, you make a point about the courts. you know, this map particularly in georgia, it was drawn after the judge ordered that to another black majority district be added. it is one of many section two cases that have been litigated across the country after that supreme court case in alabama. what is the strategy here or from democrats? is there a case for folks to say that this shouldn't give republicans the right to shuffle around other districts because this is happening in georgia? there are similar cases in louisiana. there's a similar case in florida. there is potential for some cases in texas. i mean, this is a very real issue that is actively being played out all across the country. >> yeah, you are right, symone.

we are certainly experiencing it in texas. we have some of the worst gerrymandered legislative districts in the country. we are seeing it across the south, really not just in the south, the. across the country where we have single party control. let me be clear, there are some democratic-controlled states that gerrymander as well, and i don't want them to do it either because, to me, partisan gerrymandering and the ability to gerrymander or roads folks faith in our democracy. it makes them think that their vote doesn't matter. it also process the vote, because when you have fewer competitive elections and people don't know who their member of congress is, anyway, you see lower turnout in some of these really gerrymander districts and it produces the most extreme politicians that we have, that is driving some of those functions that we have. i know that some of our former colleagues who are litigating some of these cases, and i believe in them. i think they're making the right arguments and they will make the best arguments. i don't always believe in the courts that they're in front of, and that is why i think that we

have to move to the legislative front. >> i do want to get you to weigh in. we have been talking a lot about on the ballots. there it is all these 14 amendment cases happening. you yourself are on the ballot. i believe that you have a march 5th a primary in texas. what is your reaction to these 14th amendment cases and the fact that a lot of donald trump's primary opponents, all of them actually, even chris christie. they have rushed to defend him. what does this say about the republican party writ large? >> well, simone, i think that you know that i was on the floor on january 6th, the house floor when the mob tried to break in. i am the only nfl line backer on the house floor when folks are coming in, people are looking to do to protect them. i saw my to my wife a text a goodbye text, which never thought would have to do.

we found out later that mike pence is a circuit service detail was done in the same sort of messages to their family. there is certainly an extraction led by folks like donald trump, but also folks like a ted cruz who is one of the chief architects of the plan to overturn the election. and, to me, this is actually, our system working as it should, which some courts, like the colorado supreme court may make a decision and some secretaries of state, like in maine, they make the decision and mr. trump has the right to feel it. it's the united states supreme court. it is actually a functioning democracy working in a federalist system. but it is ultimately going to be up to the voters, up to our democracy itself to purge this kind of idea that we're not going to accept elections. we're going to move away from democracy itself. we're going to try to overthrow elections. for the first time in our history we can have a peaceful transfer of power. voters have to reject that again in this next election and i'm confident that they will with folks like ted cruz and across the country. >> i happen to still believe that, in america, the people

still have the power. congressman colin allred, thank you so much for joining us today. when we return, folks, we will finish out the year with something special. part of nichols in-depth interview with january six committee vice chair, liz cheney. that is coming up after a short break. break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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white house of 2023 and, as a special way to bring in the new

year, we will be bringing you nichols a full interview with former congresswoman liz cheney from earlier this month on monday. they cover a lot of aground from jane's experience on january 6th tours of the current role as a key member on the house committee, to what her future roles with the twice impeached, four times indicted ex president running again. this time, somehow, angrier than ever and even bigger threat that democracy than before. here is a little piece of their can't miss conversation on the threat that is donald trump. >> just with your vast knowledge of threats that are fostered and furthered by permission structure for extremism, adjacent to the acceptance of a political violence, adjacent to conspiracies and lies, what is the threat? what is your warning? >> you know, the threat is exactly what you've laid out. the threat is that this is a

man that we don't have to guess what he would do. in some ways the extreme nature of the claim that he is making, of the lies that he's telling, of the calling for a general milley to be executed, those things are so extreme that, what happens sometimes in our body politic, as people ignore it. people say, well, that is just him and i think that the challenge that we're facing now is very clearly understanding and recognizing that he means what he says, the people who invaded the capital, frankly, on january 6th, you can look at the scores of those defendants who have since had, specifically, he came before because he told us to come. he told us to do this. he knows that people will follow his instructions and, if he is elected again, those guardrails, those individuals, for example, who stopped, and won't be there. think about what it means to have a president who won't enforce the ruling of the courts. >> it's insane. >> it will be the unraveling of

our constitutional system and, every time people hear my former republican colleagues talking about the weaponization of the justice department i really urge them to stop and think about what that is. it is republicans attempting to do donald trump's bidding and attacking one of the most foundational and important aspects of our republic. the judiciary has been almost without exception in this absolutely is stellar in terms of understanding the importance of this threat. i think that is something that we should be very proud of as americans, that with an exception or two, it doesn't matter if these charges were appointed by democrats or republicans, same with the justices, they understand this threat and they are conducting themselves in the fair and impartial administration of justice that the country requires they have to be protected against the kind of attacks that you are seeing

from donald trump and republicans. >> i was going to ask you, to your point, the 61 cases they brought he lost all 60 because inside the court of law facts still mattered. and we still have this unprecedented threat from trump. he steams to have found water, and ability to work around those legal defeats. what do we do about the rest of it? >> i think that there are several things. one, all of us have to make the kind of commitment that will require putting partisanship aside. not just with respect to him, but certainly with respect to trump, republicans who suggest that somehow there would be ruling to support him if you are the nominee have to be held accountable. >> that is every republican running in the primary, except for chris christie. will you endorsed anyone the primary? >> i haven't decided yet and i'm very conscious of not hurting someone by endorsing them. but, you know, the idea that you would support a convicted felon if he is in fact

convicted, which is some of them have suggested. >> everyone has suggested, except for chris christie. have you talked to chris christie about endorsing him? >> i want to keep our discussions private, but, again, i'm not endorsing someone and i don't want to do that in a way that could potentially help trump. >> if the republican nominee is trump or someone who would pardon him or excuse him, would you vote for joe biden? >> i'm going to do whatever i have to do to defeat him. >> trump? >> to defeat trump. we don't know yet who the candidates are going to be and so i think that that is the kind of thing that will become clearer certainly in the next couple of months, but i certainly would never vote for donald trump again and i'll do it ever i takes to defeat him. >> you're campaigning for some of the democrats who you served with. the services committee was wildly successful. you are a powerful voice, you

are more than a political player, you are this clarion call for doing the right thing. i know there is some reporting that he would consider running yourself on a third party ticket. is that something that you will consider even if it has the impact of defeating trump? >> no, i would not do anything that is going to help him. and we're at this really unprecedented moment where our system for so long has meant that we have got a republican candidate, a democratic candidate, and contemplating any kind of third-party run that most of us would never do. i think this is a different moment, but i'm not going to take any steps, certainly, that will help him. i do think that it is really important, though, that, again, in a bipartisan, nonpartisan fashion, we work to defeat donald trump and we also work to defeat election deniers. the threat of electing people who have the ability to determine whether elections are

certified, for example, and you y that they will only honor elections that they agree with the outcome, you know, that also undmines our democracy. >> i don't know about you, but i need to see this entire interview again. we can all watch it, a coal's entire interview with liz cheney, this monday, new year's day, four pm eastern. a great way to start the year. a quick break for us and we will be right back. will be right back ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. why choose between a longer life or quality of life? you deserve both. and with kisqali, a treatment for people with metastatic breast cancer, you can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken

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forward to in 2024, hopefully, the woman affectionately known as the grandmother of juneteenth is finally getting back the land where home once stood in fort worth, texas, almost 85 years after it was all burned down by a racist mob all while police suited by. and, trinity habitat for humanity has gone one step further. a house is being built for le and expected to be completed sometime in the coming year. miss opal egan attention back in 2016 when she asked then president obama to make juneteenth a federal holiday. , well that finally paid off in 2021 when president biden made it official. she was even nominated for a nobel peace prize just last year. it is a long awaited happy ending and start towards justice. another break for us. we'll be right back. 'll be right back.

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for spending this friday afternoon with us. we hope all of you have a happy new year. you can catch special evenings at four pm eastern, right here on msnbc. and new episodes on mondays. and starting on january 13th, join me and two of my best days on saturday and sunday mornings 8 am eastern. on our new show, the weekend. >> good evening. i'm jonathan capehart in for lawrence o'donnell. for a special holiday edition of the last word. a new legal war is brewing over the republican front runners eligibility to be on the 2024 presidential primary ballot, it's intensifying just weeks before the first votes are cast and what is shaping up to be a pivotal campaign year. two states, maine and