searches and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. >> good morning, it's saturday, december 30th, and you're watching velshi on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, in for my friends and colleague ali velshi, and we have got a lot to talk about. now listen. no one likes a good story better than me, and with that, allow me to share the story of

donald trump, the gingerbread man. although the title may seem like a hilarious comedy, this is hardly a laughing matter. in fact, this is not inspired by real events, but rather based on actual occurrences and real facts. now, in 2023, donald trump, the former president of the united states, and the current front-runner for the republican nomination, was indicted 4 times. he was charged with 91 felony counts, he set for 2 trials, was hit with a multi million dollar civil verdict, and he took the mugshots scene around the world. he's now been removed from the primary ballot in 2 different states. it almost makes you wonder whether he's more busy now than he was when he was actually the commander in chief. with the new year, donald trump faces 5 separate trials and verdicts in 2 civil cases that threaten both his bank accounts and his businesses. all the while, he's also facing the jury that we haven't even talked about. the american electorate.

but for as long as donald j trump has dominated american politics, and even prior to that, he's been the proverbial gingerbread man and dodged accountability. now let's go back, way back, to 2017. now listen, i get it. this feels like an insurrection several impeachments ago. but please, bear with me. we're going somewhere. remember robert mueller's investigation into the russian interference case around the 2016 election? the mueller probe focused on possible coordination between trump associates and the kremlin, and also whether trump obstructed justice when he promptly fired fbi director james cool me. >> the president that i had had multiple conversations about my job, both before and after he took office. and he had repeatedly told me i was doing a great job, and he hoped i would stay. so it confused me when i saw on television the president saying that he actually fired me because of the russia investigation.

and learned again from the media that he was telling privately other parties that my firing had relieved great pressure on the russia investigation. >> russia, russia, russia. they found that the russian government did in fact meddle in the 2016 election. ultimately, however, he found no evidence that trump's campaign coordinated with russia, but even in doing that, he fell that he would exonerate the president. the report laid out multiple episodes in which trump directed others to influence or curtailed the russia investigation. in 2019, donald trump was hit with his first impeachment. it centered around a phone call with the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyy, in which trump pressured the new leader to announce investigations into trump's political rivals. at the same time, trump was withholding 400 million dollars and critical military aid to ukraine. we've heard a lot about trump's various phone calls, but this

was the first one for him to introduce the i did nothing wrong, it was a perfect call, it was a beautiful call. the mantra that has since become one of his staples. the house impeached trump for abuse of power, and obstruction of congress. hardly a ringing endorsement. but he was acquitted in the senate because, well, politics. and so he continued on in the white house. catch him if he can. he's the gingerbread man. now, what do you think happens to someone whose persona was already built on being untouchable, when they escape accountability? spoiler alert. their behavior usually doesn't get better. and in that way, donald trump decided to stick to the script. his next set of what the house would deem high crimes and misdemeanors occurred on and leading up to january 6th, 2021. lawmakers voted to charge trump with incitement of insurrection, just one week after a violent mob of pro trump loyalists stormed the u.s. capital. the house found that trump not

only encouraged the riot, but also failed to call it off. again, he was charged by the house, but not convicted by the senate, because, again, well, politics. and so, with just one week left in his presidency, donald trump became the first u.s. president to be impeached twice. now, we really could stop here. all of this by itself shudders the scale by any index, in terms of its significance and its absurdity. you, think about it. we've only had 4 times when a u.s. president has been impeached. and donald trump is half of them. but the house wasn't done with the trump insurrection just yet. the bipartisan house select committee to investigate january 6th would reveal far worse allegations against the president, and a group of co-conspirators. after weeks of scathing testimony by trump's principal advisers, white house employees, allies, and even his own daughter, the committee

concluded that trump and his co conspirators attempted to overturn the 2020 presidential election, and they concluded it in more ways than one. >> in our hearing tonight, you saw an american president faced with a start and unmistakable choice between right and wrong. there was no ambiguity, no nuance. donald trump made a purposeful choice to violate his oath of office. to ignore the ongoing violence against law enforcement. to threaten our constitutional order. there is no way to excuse that behavior. it was indefensible. >> the panel voted to refer donald j trump for criminal prosecution. that brings us to november of 2022, which acts mid was appointed as special counsel to oversee 2 distinct matters. the first, a criminal investigation by the justice department into efforts to overturn the election.

and secondly, a separate investigation into trump's possession of classified documents. both of jack smith's investigations have led to indictments. now, if you're wondering at home weather going 0-2 in terms of avoiding indictments after investigations is bad, i can te it ain't good. now, in june, a federal ground jury invited -- for illegally holding on to and for -- trump was subsequently hit with an additional 3 counts. then, 2 months later, in a a federal grand jury in the election interference case indicted trump on 4 counts, alleging he conspired to defraud the u.s. by seeking to illegally subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election. and if all this, everything that i've said already wasn't enough, and your fulton county d.a. fani willis and the sweeping r.i.c.o. case in fulton county, georgia. d.a. willis is also

investigating trump for election interference in her state. also in august, a grand jury indicted trump and heat 18 others on state charges related to a scheme to overturn the 2020 election. trump was hit with another 13 charges there. man, this is a lot. not to mention, trump has also been facing 2 cases in new york. one of them is a civil fraud trial against trump and his businesses. new york attorney general leticia james is suing trump for lying about his net worth in order to do blunders. the others, that's a hush money case, where manhattan district attorney alvin bragg and his office became the first law enforcement entity to criminally indict donald trump, charging him with 34 counts of falsifying business records in connection with hush money he paid to adult film actress stormy daniels back in 2016. do you guys keep a score at home? good. because we're still not done. this year, trump was found

liable for sexual abuse and defamation against writer dejean carroll. she was awarded 5 million dollars in damages, which trump is currently appealing. carol is suing trump again, for defamation about comments he made about her when he was still president and again after the 5 million-dollar verdict. now, i should mention, trump claims no wrongdoing in any of the cases i just mentioned. and, to be fair, given his elusive and invasive maneuvers with accountability so far, why would he? catch me if you can, it's the gingerbread man. a busy 2024 awaits donald trump indeed. but even as the story continues to right itself in the annals of america's history, will this be the year that donald trump is finally held accountable? joining me now to unpack all of this is my good friend super lawyer, msnbc legal analyst,

and criminal defense attorney danny cevallos, as well as micah woltman, president and ceo of the brennan center for justice. he's also the author of the book, the super majority, the year the supreme court divided america. and listen, the last time we were here, you were in studio and we talked. it was before a big game, you've got a couple of days before another big game, and i know that that's why you came to us, to get some good mojo. so we're going to start with you. i want to hear your prediction, danny. is 2020 for the actual year that donald trump gets his comeuppance, or is at least held accountable? >> i'm doing the thing in vegas, like it blackjack. where you always assume the next card is a 10. right? and so to that degree, what i'm doing is i'm just betting on it delay. so while 2024 may be the year of pretrial accountability, i think 2025 is more likely going to be a real year for

accountability, because there's a very real possibility that some of these trials don't even happen until 2025. i definitely think the fulton county case doesn't get to its first witnesses until 2025. in federal court, normally they move a lot quicker. so you've got 2 federal criminal cases. those might move a little quicker, on the criminal accountability. but of course, political accountability, unquestionably, you cannot continue or adjourn a election date the way you can adjourn a trial date. so in one sense, politically, we will find out if donald trump is accountable next year in 2024 for the election. but in terms of criminal and civil liability, at least criminal liability, we may be waiting until 2025. 2025 may be the year of criminal accountability. but at this point, i'm just doubling down on all my bets, charles. >> michael, let's talk supreme court for a moment. donald trump is going to more likely than not be facing 2 different cases that are going

to appear before the high court. one, dealing with this blanket claim of immunity and that being sort of his home run attempts or his knockout punch for everything that he's facing. and then the other, this 14th amendment question. when you look at the composition of the court, what does that tell you about where we are headed? >> well, the supreme court, as you know, has lurched far to the right with this super majority of highly conservative justices. but interestingly, up until now, they have not gone out of their way to bail donald trump out of all of his legal troubles. they have no choice though, but to address these 2 cases. and to address them at around the same time. the most important one, i think, in the short run, is this question of his claim that he's immune from prosecution because he was once president. even though the crime involves trying to claim illegally to the presidency. the trial is due to start on

march 4th, but it has been put on hold until this legitimate constitutional question has been addressed. that's actually legally an easy case. he is not eligible for immunity from prosecution. the question is timing. that's where the colorado case intersects with that, because this ruling in colorado, and now the ruling by an official in maine, the only 2 states where this has happened, saying he can't be on the ballot, that's also got to be addressed by the supreme court soon, because they're printing ballots and getting ready for the election. >> michael, let's follow up about what you just mentioned, which is that decision in maine by the secretary of state there. do you think that we are likely to see additional states sort of fall in line with that, and what sort of confusion could that potentially create, as we are just weeks away from the beginning of primary season? >> there's a real urgent need for clarity nationwide, otherwise you do get a patchwork of rulings using

different laws and different standards, and most states, most recently california, have said no, trump gets to stay on the ballot. i think what's really important is that both the maine ruling, but the colorado court ruling too, made a very clear case that there wasn't an insurrection attempt, and that donald trump was engaged in it. we all saw it in the january 6th hearings. a real coup attempt, as kind of trial like as it was in many respects. an earnest attempt to overthrow the constitution. the challenge for people who are looking to kick trump off the ballot is that it really isn't clear if it is what lawyers calls self executing. in other words, do you need congress to pass a law or a court finding or something like that? those are the questions the court is going to address. and if they want to get rid of that case, they have many avenues to do it. the most important thing, though, is i sure hope they

don't use it as an opportunity to say, hey, trump didn't do anything wrong. i think it's unlikely that they will. i think the facts are really clear, there across the street in the supreme court, and these cases make a very strong factual case about what happened. >> you know, danny, michael brings up a very good point when we look at the different ways that this could be sort of litigated through and addressed by the supreme court. but, we have to realize, donald trump was indicted multiple times on multiple levels this year. this is stunning, this is historic, this is a really big deal. and there is in some sense a feeling of, my gosh. what's next? can you sort of really talk about legally, the significance of having a former president being in this space? because what we have talked about him being a defendant like anyone else, he's really not. and so can you, as a criminal

defense attorney, really explain just how big a deal this actually is? >> of course it's a big deal. we have never had a president twice impeached. never had a president charged with a crime. there is so many different first here. the main secretary of state acknowledges that she is the first secretary of state to do what she did through her administrative process. we are going through a number of first. in a sense, and michael might agree with me on, this in a sense because these are so many firsts that -- possibly to the benefit of donald trump. for example, even though the immunity question, i would agree, is ultimately having to go against trump, there is never a case where donald trump is broadly immune to what he does out of office. trump is not arguing absolute immunity under all circumstances. what he argued is that he is outside his presidential duties. it seems pretty clear he was

acting in regards to his campaign. because of all these historic and constitutional first, that is what is causing all of this delay. delay at every level which is why this will move snail like, glacier like, and ran right into that november election. and really the inauguration which, for me, is even more constitutionally complex if donald trump is convicted, possibly even sentenced, and then inaugurated. that is where we get into some novel constitutional questions. frankly, these new ballot access cases i think pose the biggest threat to donald trump's campaign. more so, arguably, than the indictments. the indictments have only had polls go up. if he can't be on the ballot, it doesn't matter where he's polling. >> we are going to need your sage wisdom in a moment. we are going to force you to make legal bats. both of you stay right there. we are going to continue this conversation after a quick break. i'm charles coleman junior.

you're watching velshi on msnbc. we'll be right back. ching velshi o msnbc. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. if you know... you know it's pantene. ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver.

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here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. welcome back to velshi. drizly.

i'm charles coleman junior, in for ali today. back with me to continue our conversation. we have danny sebelius, and msnbc legal analyst as well as michael walton, who is the president and ceo of the -- center for justice at nyu law. michael, you mentioned in the last segment a little bit about the fact that the supreme court has a number of different ways that they might execute in terms of reversing the lower courts decisions around the 14th amendment. can you talk about that? talked about the notion of automatic triggering, are there any other reasons that the supreme court could find to take things in a different direction? >> there are many different ways that they could find an

exit ramp. you could say donald trump could take advantage of, i don't know, they're technicalities, everything from the question of, is it self executing? maine has one set of laws, colorado has another. it is hard to challenge some of these eligibility's for the ballot. you could find different outcomes in different states, even with the same set of facts. all of that is the reason i think the supreme court, whatever the ruling, is needs to act quickly. i do want to say that i don't want to let them off the hook. i'm critical of the supreme court. they can act fact if they want to. there is plenty of precedent in the nixon tapes case, 1974, it took just a few weeks for the case being brought to the court to the arguments, to the ruling, to nixon being out of office. and bush versus gore in the year 2000, they decided the

presidential election and didn't basically in three days. the presidency here is at stake as well. i think that all eyes should stay focused on these criminal cases. charging the former president, federal court, trying to overthrow the constitution and overthrow the peaceful transfer of power. that trial, i don't think we're going to see him even be convicted. i don't think he will be all done with appeals and everything like that before long. but that trial could -- if your supreme court slow walks it. we hope they don't do that. we hope -- we think that would be an atrocity. >> with all deliberate speed, danny, i want to give you the last word. trump's most important case might not necessarily be the case that he is most worried about or might be.

but from your perspective, what is his most important case? and what is the case you should be most worried about? >> i will start with the least important case. the least important cases new york criminal case. that case is the weakest of all the criminal cases against him. again, just playing the odds, as a criminal defense attorney any federal criminal case is not a great place to be. the federal government has well over a 90% conviction rate. that is the tiny fraction of cases that go to trial in federal court. i know i sound like a broken record. i talk about this all the time. but if you talk about criminal defense attorneys, they would much rather be in state court than in federal court. and then of course i still think that the eatest threat is this ballot access issue that is now just seemingly coming to bear against trump. just to give you an example. you know, you look at the colorado case. you look at the main case. you say well, if the supreme court could take that up and beside these narrow issues of weather, for example, donald

trump is in office or under section three of the 14th amendment. just like michael said, there is so many issues. even maine and colorado are not that much alike. for example, the main issue has only been decided so far administratively. it will go to the court within maine, but doesn't it have to go through that process at its own pace? and then, out in colorado, that was decided by a court. what if the supreme court decides that this is an issue that, as they say, is not just a simple? something the courts cannot even decide in the first place. in that case, maine was decided directly in colorado wasn't. so really, i'm not even certain what supreme court review of all of these different cases, whatever procedural status they are in at the time, will even look like. maybe they can just consolidate it and say look, we're going to look at these discreet issues and kind of combine them. i'm not so sure that this is a gimme. this is getting more complex by the day. as each state joins. >> danny, michael, you guys got me off to a great start on this

saturday. i gotta take my glasses off and talk to some reporters. thank, you both. >> coming up, for anyone who was still wondering whether republicans really mentored when they said they wanted a smaller government? we will partially calculate the vast expansion of government control in post roe america. plus, the next election will not be a normal election. that is really not an understatement. this republican primary, with a front runner facing -- dozens of felony charges is not a normal primary. but there is a whole slate of other republican candidates who are technically also running for president. this week, one of them might have actually learned a little something about history. >> i think the cause of the civil war was basically how government was going to run. the freedoms and what people could and couldn't do. >> if someone asked me what the cause of the civil war was

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that's why dawn is trusted to save wildlife affected by oil. dawn platinum cleans to the squeak. welcome back to velshi. i'm charles coleman junior. in from velshi, today. leave it to the party -- individual premium or small government to create a nightmare example of the opposite. as we say goodbye to the first full year of post-roe policy making in america, let's take a look at republicans and what

they have done with the opportunity to criminalize health care, and to crinalize the bodies of roughly half of our population. an ohio woman was charged after of his carriage. the texas woman who saw her states attorney general personally intervene to block her doctor recommended medical care. and then the texas woman who sa she was forced to o potentially sepsis before her doctors provided her with fe abortion care. the other 19om who also saved their lives were endangered by texas's abortion ban and are joining suing the state. not to mention the several women in idaho, tennessee, and oklahoma telling similar stories and also suing. and then, the patients, foedo leave their state abortion care in order to continue lifesaving treatment. meanwhile, tug rational

investigation shows the nation's largest pharmacy chains are sharing medical data with the police even though they have not been provided warrants. individual preet's, that small, limited, an interest in government, sounds just tiny enough to fit between the pages of an original addition of the actual handmaid's tale. with me now to talk about this terrible landscape for reproductive rights and the fight to win them back, it is the president and ceo of reproductive freedom for all which is a -- reproductive freedom and the state and national levels. good morning, many. thank you for being here. i just talked a minute ago about how the post-roe landscape is not a good place for us. we've heard a lot in the immediate aftermath of dobbs for how there would be exceptions, and all these diagnosis is, what we have seen

out here and how this has played out has been very different. can you just kind of comment. is this something you saw coming in the wake of dobbs? what do we do about it? >> thank you for asking, and thanks for having me. we did see this coming. we have known for decades that roe was not enough, quite frankly. i've heard you -- row is the floor, not the ceiling. i've started my career in the home state of texas doing this work. we face significant hurdles to getting access to abortion care even when roe was the law of the land because of what are called trap laws or targeted restrictions against abortion providers. things like the 72 hour waiting period. mandatory ultrasounds. laws that were created to really impact the ability for folks to get abortion care, even when abortion care was constitutionally mandated. so what we knew coming into the dobbs decision was that a, we already had a landscape that

was patchwork. mississippi only had one abortion clinic, that was the one in the case of dobbs. we also knew that medical exceptions to abortion bans don't work. they are designed not to work by extremists who don't want americans to have access to this care. we saw this so plainly revealed indicate cox case in texas where she had to petition the court. the a.g. tried to stop. at the texas supreme court stopped it. they designed medical exception with the intent to never enforce it. right now we are seeing close to 21 states with bans in restrictions. many of which have exceptions that are not enforceable and we are seeing in a rise in -- key states like ohio, kansas, even virginia. pushing back and fighting back against these restrictions. >> one thing we know from a policy and legislative place is that these policies are actually not popular at all. and voters have continued to show that at the ballot box. nevertheless, there has been a relentless push to try to have

these national and widespread abortion bans, even as voters continue to let people know that regardless of their actual stance on abortion itself, they believe that the choice should be left up to -- are you more encouraged by how voters continue to use their vote? or concern about the pushback that even in the wake of what voters are telling people that there is still this consistent effort to try to control women's bodies? >> both. and you know? the answer is both. we are encouraged by the fact that when you take the vote to the american people, like these ballot initiatives, these referendum campaigns, you, know voters have unfettered access to the polls. i know you've been covering this. these voting, writes they are not gerrymandered states like texas, they're able to fight back and win their rights. we know that that is not the case in all 50 states. it is also deeply discouraging that republicans are not hearing at the right message. they think that their job is to

change the vocabulary or the messaging around abortion as opposed to changing the policy. they are not changing their spent -- their abortion access, they are changing how they talk about it or not talk about. if they are trying to obstruct further access to the ballot and they are trying to use disinformation and misinformation to mitigate the harms they are doing to countless americans. >> mini timmaraju, we appreciate the time and perspective. coming up, we are headed for one of the most consequential presidential elections of modern times. first, we have to get through one of the most bizarre primaries that is about to start. when we come back, we will talk about the state of the republican race for president. a race where almost no one is actually running against the foreign runner. and that is not even the weirdest thing about this political season. stay tuned. we've got more velshi on the other side of this break. t more velshi on the other side of this break

welcome back. you're watching velshi on msnbc. charles coleman junior in for ali today. the most consequential election year in modern history gets underway in less than 48 hours. forget all of that next year. top that's right, kids. the primary season is upon us. the iowa caucuses will kick off on january 15th. quickly followed by the new hampshire primary on the 23rd. but this is anything but an ordinary primary season. typically we would be covering a race on a number of different candidates, ups, downs, highs, lows. candidates actually debating each other. front runner status, moves and counter moves. but this year it is almost like we are watching a split screen. there is a primary that is going on, but the front runner, the clear and solid favorite, who is actually in the race is not really participating in the primary at all. for months the disgraced ex

president and the republican front runner has been running for president essentially outside of the primary. in normal times, the front runner would be the number one focus for its closest competitors. and in normal times, even one felony charges against a lead candidate for president would be unheard of. but multiple charges? that would be a very late holiday gift wrap. these are not normal times. donald trump is facing 91 felony charges. he has skipped every debate. he has favored his signature name-calling over political ads. -- pretty much every major poll. everything i've told, you all the materials in the remainder of the republican primary field, they are still not slinging anything back his way.

his long shot opponents seen largely willing to run against him in any meaningful manner. in music, you don't mess with the beehive or the swifties, but apparently in the gop maga nation is off limits. trump's opponents and name are so fearful of alienating his maga base. they all appear to be hoping that someone else will beat donald trump for them. sun, you have to throw the ball. that is how it works. so far, not even 91 felony charges have had what has taken, or what needs to happen, to beat donald trump politically. when we come back, i will talk about this bizarre primary season. what some people have done, for many years, for a living. i am joined by former republican congressman, david jolly, the veteran republican operative, tim miller, who worked for jeb bush, john

mccain, john huntsman and the rnc itself among others. i'm charles coleman junior. you're watching velshi on msnbc. junior you're watching velshi o msnbc. msnbc. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. if you know... you know it's pantene. welcome back to velshi on

msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior in for ali today. we are back to talk about the very strange republican primary season we are about to enter.

this is one where the front runner is facing dozens of felony charges, pretty much no one else is running against him who is actually supposed to be running against him. joining me now is david jolly, my friend and former congressman for the state of florida. david, as a republican in the house, in 2018 you left the party and also -- . tim miller, both of them are msnbc political analysts. they, but let's start with you. this week, the main,, the first state to actually bar trump from the ballot. and then trump's republican rivals lined up in his defense. both rhonda santos and vivek ramaswamy, haven't heard that name in a while, have criticize removing trump from the ballot over his role in january six. from this only went so far to say that he would withdraw himself from the base and pretty much challenge the rest of the field that is the same. how should we think about these statements? are they principled?

other strategy? or is this just vivek being vivek? >> i think devoid of all principle. as joe biden said. we saw an insurrection in front of her eyes. they are political and they reflect the strategy of every candidate except for chris christie. when they decided to get into this race, they would run a traditional maga republican campaign in hopes that, -- maybe the guy decided not to run. none of that has happened. the story is the party she has stuck with donald trump and there is no options for nikki haley, for ron desantis, or others. the intriguing thing here is this, we are looking for the take on donald trump directly. they are not doing. matt how should we at least expect them to draw a contract with donald trump? they're not doing that. consider on the issues. i mean, we sort of anticipated that they didn't need to go there. they could each represents some sort of war on migrants.

a war on the lgbt community. the anti-trans platform in the humiliation of trans families and their medical care. we knew all of that. what we didn't anticipate was ron desantis saying that slavery contributed good things to african americans and nikki haley not able to say that the civil war was not about slavery. i mean, the easiest contract -- recognition of facts and equity in the united states and the two front runners, haley and desantis, have not even been able to do that. this is a mega field, of course, there's no reason anybody could overtake donald trump in the maga field. >> you know, tim. i probably was not going to mention nikki haley. but since david brought it up, we want you to listen to this and let me know what you think. >> what was the cause of the united states civil war? >> don't come with an easy question. i think the cause of the civil war was basically how government was going to run.

the freedoms and what people could and couldn't do. >> you answer that question without mentioning the word slavery. >> what do you want me to say about slavery? >> of course the civil war was about slavery. we know that, that is unquestioned, always the case, we know the civil war was about slavery. it was also more than that. if it required clarification of saying yes the civil war was about slavery i'm happy to do that. but, look i know it very well. i'm a southern governor. >> nikki haley has had some problems with basic american history. she is asked a simple question and responded with an in comprehensible word salad. i think this shows that this is not a candidate that is ready for primetime. >> if someone asked me what the cause of the civil war was [laughter]

it's easy. it's slavery. >> i guess i'm still stuck on rhonda scientists talking about history in any context. but tim, i want to ask, what does it say about the fact that nikki haley has had this misstep that has followed her? this is a continuation of a conversation she had in 2010 when running for governor. it doesn't seem to have hurt her very much within the republican party in terms of its base. >> i think they hit the nail on the head on why she's giving such an incomprehensible answer. it is because she's from south carolina. she knows there is a lot of members and people in the republican base that are still spells like the lost cause nonsense. you know, the war of northern aggression, all of that other ridiculousness that you hear from a certain segments of the

right, particularly in the south. because she is afraid to offend that part of the maga base, you know, she instead provides the broken clock is right twice a day. he described it as word salad. she gave the word salad because shouldn't want to offend people that she didn't -- then think that the civil war was about slavery. i think it is a summary for her whole campaign. who has her campaign for? it's not really for anybody. it's for republicans that don't like donald trump that much but aren't willing to admit it out loud because they don't want to give any aid and comfort to the left. that's a pretty small group. it's a significant group to get a, nine, 10%. that's not enough to win a primary. my big takeaway when i watch the whole clip reel is it reminds me of when i was in high school, i was in model u.n., i don't know about you, but all of this feels like model u.n.. it's like fake. they're not even having a campaign. the real campaign is not about

slavery and the civil war, disputes between nikki haley and ron desantis, the real debate is about donald trump winning by 50 points. i don't know what these guys are talking about. they're playing pretend. >> tim, i was emotional congress across the call, not model. u.n. by applaud you for those efforts. david, my friend, since you are bringing it up, nikki haley, let's stay there. yesterday in new hampshire she actually did talk about donald trump. i want you to listen to what she said and no give me your reaction on the other side. >> you've got president trump, he's showing me at some attention, isn't that nice? it's nice because i know what that means. he is seeing what we are seeing. you know, you look at president trump, he went on a temper tantrum about me today. and every bit of it was a lie. so i'm thinking, if these fellas have to lie to win, they don't deserve to win.

>> this is the most direct talk we've have heard from anyone else about donald trump in the primary field other than chris christie. does this sound strong enough to actually register in terms of fighting back against donald trump? what do you make of it? >> no. she is responding to a mean tweet. that is not a strategic campaign against a front runner who has been charged, essentially, with insurrection. although that's not the official charge by jack smith. and so what you're seeing is this tampa this and timidity. tim would agree with this. he's been in the war rooms. i think we are approaching that a couple of weeks where the big question for strategist, crinkly, and i think candidates, is this actually going to turn it to be the primary that number was? is donald trump 30-point lead really as solid as it is? or does he just coast through the states and is this over early much? it might be. one of the wildcards? rhonda santas has worked very hard in iowa, the ted cruz strategy, he did everything

right. he may overperform, he may underperform. we will see. he has to rely on momentum through new hampshire in south carolina. in florida, that frankly won't happen. nikki haley, does she pull out a win in new hampshire? overperform in new hampshire? is there any dynamic shift in the next 10 to 12 weeks? that is -- so far the data says that there's not enough to derail donald trump. this may be the primary that never was. >> congressman david jolly and ted miller, both msnbc political analyst. thank you guys for helping us see what is ahead. speaking of what is ahead, on the other side of this break, donald trump does not enjoy the divine right of kings, and that is according to the judge in one of the four ongoing criminal pursuits against him. this is the man who was so successfully avoiding accountability over the years that he once bragged infamously that he could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot someone without losing any voters. can he really have lost his

magic touch? after a very short break, i will present the evidence to political minds that i know. and for, that you and i will both be a lot smarter. plus, ali velshi is making a special appearance today. we are bringing it one of the most important velshi banned book club's from 2023. a conversation with a legendary maya angelo about her i know why the caged bird sings, with the incredible imani perry. i will also be having a treat of ali joining us with the reverend al sharpton tomorrow at five pm. this will be on msnbc's -- for the 13th annual ravi awards. i'm charles coleman junior. another hour of velshi begins right after a quick break. begin right after a quick break. right after a quick break. zon! (vo) that's right! plans start at $25 per line guaranteed for 3 years. only on verizon.

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