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and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. >> good morning, it's saturday, december 30th. and you're watching velshi on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, in from my friend ali velshi, and we have got a lot to talk about. we begin this hour with the very latest with the legal drama unfolding around the twice impeached, multiple indicted ex president donald trump, who also happens to be far and away at the front runner for the republican nomination for president once again. in addition to the 5 separate

trials hughes pacing in 2024, donald trump has now been removed from the primary ballots in 2 states. colorado, as well as maine. both on the grounds that he is ineligible to run for office because of his role in the january 6th insurrection. now, the trump campaign is calling both rulings election interference. and lawyers from both sides are asking the supreme court to weigh in. regardless of what happens next, these are monumental times we are living through. 2023 will go down in history as the year donald trump was criminally indicted. before this year, for as long as he dominated american politics, trump had escaped accountability, and in the new year, it's all coming to a head. in 2024, donald trump faces 5 separate trials, and verdicts in 2 separate civil cases that threaten his bank accounts as well as his businesses. all the while, he's also standing before the jury that is the american electorate. a busy 2024, indeed.

now, this is what donald trump's legal calendar looks like next year. on january 11th, closing arguments are expected in the new york civil fraud trial. on january 16th, eugene carroll's defamation trial begins. on march 4th, jack smith's election interference trial is set to begin, on march 25th, the new york hush money case is set to go to trial. on may 20th, we can expect the start of jack smith's classified documents trial, and august 5th is the proposed start date for the fulton county georgia election trial. you can say his card is pretty full. but even as the story continues to right itself in the annals of american history, we do not yet know where this will be the year that donald trump is finally held to account. joining me now is super lawyer jill wine banks, a former assistant what a great special prosecutor and msnbc analyst, and jennifer rubin, who's an

opinion writer for the washington post and also an msnbc political analyst. jen, i want to start with you. the case to remove donald trump from the ballot, it centers on the 14th amendment. and that argument is basically that this is one of the most important amendments in the constitution. do you think that failing to remove donald trump from the ballot a devalues the 14th amendment? >> it does, and it devalues the entire constitution. if you read the constitution, and take it literally and historically, and text really, you cannot escape the conclusion that he should be removed. the president is an officer of the united states, or alternatively, he holds an office. he did provide aid and comfort to those who were seeking to do violence to the constitution, and he therefore gets removed. there is no requirement in the 14th amendment that he must be convicted before that, nor is there any requirement that

congress pass some kind of action. people suh under the equal protection and due process provisions of the 14th amendment all the time. and therefore, direct action under section 3 is also possible. but will this supreme court honestly interpret and apply the constitution? i have my sincere doubts. and i think the best -- in washington d.c. is probably going to figure out how they're going to worm out of this or save donald trump. >> well, jill, jen is starting us off talking about her conclusions and what she believes where this is going. i get to take my glses off and talk to another lawyer. you have taed about the fact that even though colorado and maine reached the same conclusion, they both took very different pathways. can you explain for our audience the differences between how both of those states reached their decisions? >> absolutely. but first let me say happy new year to you, and to all of

alleys listeners. it's a great end of the, year and a challenging new year that we all have to work on. maine has a very different law than colorado. colorado has a law that allows a citizen, a voter, to bring a challenge and to take it to court. the court then has a hearing, they had a trial in which they had evidence about whether or not there was an insurrection, and whether or not the former president had engaged in that insurrection. concluded that he had, and that under the clear language, and i agree with everything that jen said except for conclusion about the supreme court. but i agree with her analysis of the 14th amendment being clear, and if we don't enforce that amendment, we are at devaluing the entire constitution and raising a serious risk. in maine, it is a very different system, and the secretary of state has the sole discretion about qualifying a

candidate. in colorado, it also is a very clear that only someone who is qualified to hold the office of president can be on the ballot. and that is a very important distinction between whether your qualified to be on the ballot, or whether your qualified to hold the office. and i think that it is a waste of time to have someone on the ballot who can't hold the office. and the colorado court concluded that he was not qualified, because of his conduct, to ever hold the office of president. so i think that it was the right decision. each state has very different laws, and that's why it's going to be a mass. but the 14th amendment is federal. and only the u.s. supreme court cannot decide for all of the country whether or not the 14th amendment makes sure that a person like donald trump who took an oath of office, and then violated it by engaging in

and supporting and aiding and abetting an insurrection, can ever hold office again. >> but jill, really quickly, you said that you disagree with agendas conclusion about where the supreme court is going to land. i tend to lean toward what john said. not necessarily because i think that's the right decision or because it's what i want, but remember, the supreme court is not always last because it's, right it's right because it's always last. give us some new years hope if that is the case, as to why you think this decision could come out with these decisions, coming out differently. >> i think that first of all, to the extent that the conservatives are textual, the text of the constitution, the historic enforcement of the 14th amendment, all lead to an inevitable conclusion that the 14th amendment applies to the president, and also that in this case, the evidence supports the conclusion that he engaged in the conduct that

bars it. and i don't think or cfo they could possibly get around that. i think that there are so many legal issues now, you have immunity, you have double jeopardy, you have this 14th amendment. i think really that the supreme court has no choice but to go with what the constitution says, and to enforce the constitution. and it seems very clear to me that the arguments -- if you read the colorado decision and the colorado dissents, i think that you are very convinced at the end of that that the majority is correct. and they completely reboot and eviscerate the arguments of the dissent. so i just see this as a very clear case of fact and law, coming together, with no possible conclusion other than that he is not eligible to be on the ballot. and he is not eligible to hold office. so you might say he could be on the primary ballot because that's not up to, it's up to

the states and the state political parties. but why put someone on the ballot who then could not be inaugurated, because he can't hold office? that would be much worse to me, then taking him off the ballot, so that the people can choose from people who are qualified. to me, it's no different than saying, well, someone is 34 years old. i mean, taylor swift is the person who keeps getting mentioned. she can't be president because she's not old enough. and other people have been disqualified, both based on the 14th amendment, january 6th, but also on not having enough voters to have signed petitions, based on other qualifications. no one would be questioning if someone said, wait a minute, this person is not a natural born citizen. they cannot hold the office of president. that is a clear part of the qualification set forth in the constitution, and so is not

having engaged in an insurrection. so it seems to me that if you can bar someone who's not old enough or who is not a natural born citizen, or who hasn't lived in the united states long enough as a u.s. citizen, natural born, then you can also bar someone who doesn't meet the 14th amendment, section 3, qualification requirements. >> jill has done a brilliant job of framing this upcoming year in terms of legally, what it means. but i want to talk to you about what does it mean for democracy? i think that it's easy to sort of get lost in the cut off any of noise that we've heard around donald trump for the past several years, but least of all this year, 2023. can you just put in perspective, hyperbole aside, how big of a year, outside of the courts, outside of the indictments and the trials and the actual election, how big of a year this is coming up for democracy itself?

>> well, one thing that is at stake is the legitimacy of the supreme court. because it is so clear that the law and the facts require his removal, that the supreme court should consider doing anything else i think will be the final nail in the coffin of a court that is already in a death spiral when it comes to legitimacy and credibility with the american people. so you lose the credibility of a highest court in the land. that's no small feat. secondly, should buy some chance donald trump not only get on the ballot, but get the nomination and get elected, we will have chaos. we have already seen what he is planning to do. he is planning to create a dictatorship. he wants to round people up and support them. he wants to use the military to suppress civil disobedience. he wants to use the justice department to wreak havoc and to get back at his enemies. he wants to recreate the federal government, stripping

out the civil service and putting in his own loyal cronies. this would be the end of american democracy. and if he refused to leave office once before in 2020, do we really think he would ever leave office voluntarily? we have an election, but it could be the last one. and i mean that with all sincerity. donald trump does not believe that the 4-year term of the presidency applies to him. his attitude is, i'm in power, i get to keep it. that is a complete anathema to our constitutional system. and i must say, it is quite a test for tens of millions of people who still consider themselves to be republicans, that they should even consider putting him in office. even if you think, well, there's some thing in this section of the 14th amendment, or perhaps there's this little technicality, why would you put somebody in office who on january 6th, set by in his

office and allowed his supporters to ransack the capital, to threaten the life of the vice president, and in fact, egged them on to do so? there is a group of people, in fact, a very large group of americans, who still stick with him. it's a deeply distressing, and it should be to the rest of us. and if we allow that mentality, which is anti truth, anti constitutional, anti rule of law, to prevail, we will not have the america that we have known. and i don't say that with any hyperbole or exaggeration. i don't see how the conclusion could be anything other than that. so, we have a number of options here. the republicans could find their soul and their mind and reject him, the courts could do their business and he could very well be convicted, not only in the d.c. case, but in the new york case, which we haven't talked much about, which is a real case of election interference,

interference in the 2016 election, but ultimately this could be up to the american people. are they going to vote for this character, and essentially choose donald trump's tyranny over american democracy? that's what we are going to find out next year. and i cannot imagine the stakes would be any higher. >> big questions and joe wine bags and jennifer rubin with bigger answers. thanks for getting us started on the 2nd hour of velshi. coming up, the first of its kind. studies show evidence that links structural racism with poor health outcomes. i'll talk to the senior author of this groundbreaking study about what she found and about what we can do about it. plus, ali is off this weekend for the holiday, but he is here in spirit. and even better, he left us all a gift for kwanzaa. one of his favorite meetings of the velshi banned book club from the past year, his conversation with the great doctor -- about my angela's classic, i

know why the caged bird sings. i'm charles coleman junior, and that's all coming up a little bit later on velshi.

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msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, filling in for my friend ali velshi. it's now day 85 in the war between israel and hamas. according to the gaza health ministry, more than 21,000 people have been killed in gaza since october 7th, and 187 palestinian's were killed in just the last 24 hours. the audio has expanded friday into central gaza, even -- to the south. an estimated 100,000 palestinian's have streamed into the southern city of rafa in recent days, staying in makeshift tents and surviving on the small amount of humanitarian aid coming into the region.

the united nations estimates half of gaza's post -- it would -- have been displaced. meanwhile, yesterday, the united states made another deal to furtheraid israel with military equipment. the biden administration bypassed congressional approval to sell 147.5 million dollars worth of equipment to israel. this is the 2nd time that the white house has sized up congress to sell arms to israel since the war began. and it is separate from the ongoing ukraine israel southern border aid package the white house is seeking. for more on this, i'm joined by nova terrible ski, she's an and dependent journalist in jerusalem with 2 decades of experience covering the israeli palestinian conflict. good to talk to you, as always. i want to begin with you, with the piece that you wrote in new york magazine on thursday, where you titles it, what israel lost before october 7th. in it, you call 2023 the worst

year in israel's history. can you talk a little bit more about how you reached that conclusion? >> yes, absolutely. and i want to give a little credit to my editor, who chose a good headline, and 2 former prime minister -- who i interviewed for this piece, and who himself gave us that line. saying it's been the worst year in israeli history. you know, yesterday's real marked one year since benjamin netinho who returned to power. and i have to say that one year later, israelis don't recognize their country. if one thing unites israelis right now, it is a sort of loathing of their prime minister, also they're united by fear. it's important to remind everyone, i think, that half of israel right now is uninhabitable. a war zone, in the south of israel, and in the north of israel. israel has so much more

infrastructure and so many more resources, that the damage -- the humanitarian crisis can't be compared to the tragedy of gaza, but i do think it's important to nonetheless state that life in israel is absolutely unrecognizable, and people feel shattered in this country. >> you know, this morning, the new york times released a sprawling new investigation into the defensive failures that went into october 7th. they found that troops were disorganized, and they were out of position. and that there waso battle plan for a massive hamas invasion. the attack on israel on october 7th, it was traumatic for israelis on a number of levels, what does this information -- how does that affect the way we look back on october 7th, and what we learned on that day? >> it's an amazing investigation, for which the new york times deserves a lot of credit. and what it describes is a

catastrophe by every single parameter that you can measure. military preparedness, military operation already, and this is in what is considered one of the best prepared and best armed military forces in the world. certainly, the strongest in the middle east by far. so what it shows us is a culture of hubris, of a kind of institutions, of a kind of resting on laurels, and also here and there we can see in that article, how a political vision, a democratic vision, brought by mr. netinho who, who it's important to remember, also has been prime minister for 16 years now. this vision that hamas, a

terror group, was basically kind of a ragtag gang. and didn't actually pose a threat to israel. this was not based on military intelligence that was saying the contrary. this was a vision netinho who adopted because it served him politically, so as to keep the palestinian's in his view, divided. and so us to make the possibility of a palestinian state impossible. this vision seeped clearly into the idea. so that even one intelligence officers and simple soldiers on the border reported back that hamas is planning something huge, and this was reported, the commanders and the chiefs and the political echelon ignored it, because they were so deep into this mistaken concept. i think that article is a devastating indictment. >> no get on a pole ski, independent journalist from jerusalem, thank you as always.

>> thank you. >> coming up. if you are a black person or a brown person living in america, you're surely suspect of what i'm about to tell you. nonetheless, there is a brown breaking new study out that has evidence that if you are subject to structural racism, it can be bad for your health. coming up after the break, i will talk to one of the doctors who actually wrote the study. i'm charles coleman junior, and you're watching velshi, only on msnbc. msnbc.

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for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. >> welcome back to velshi on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, in for ali today. now, there is a groundbreaking new studich just found a strong lin between racism and chronic poor health conditions for black and brown communities in america. a team of researchers conducted the first of its kind study in dorm county, north carolina. and what it found was a

correlation between markers of structural racism, such as income, education levels, and locations of housing, and a higher prevalence of illnesses like chronic kidney disease, diabetes, and hypertension in the community. in simpler terms, factors like high unemployment and subpar educational levels actually play a role in health outcomes. historically, black and brown individuals already suffer from disproportionately higher rates of these conditions, compared to other ethnic groups. this compounds the issue. the goal of the research is to avenge really develop and -- that can convince community health. for more on this, i'm joined by doctor ebony -- the senior author of that study, which was published this week in the journal of american medical associations access platform. and also with us is dr. -- founder and ceo of advancing health equity. dr. blacks stuck also has a book coming out next month called legacy, a black

physician reckons with racism in medicine. thank you both for being here. this is a super imrtant study. i have long since said that racism in manyspects is a public health crisis, and now we have the data to actually support that. what is the impetus that led you and other researchers to tackle this topic, and why did you choose north carolina as your testing ground? >> charles, thank you so much for having me. and before i get to answering your questions, i just want to give a quick shout out to my collaborators at the institute for health research, doctor davenport at duke university, and many others i do, as well as at nc state university. north will health, and wake forest university school of medicine. we did seek out to understand the relationship between structural racism and health, because we know that ethnic and racial minorities have had much

worth health than others in the united states. including higher rates of chronic conditions, acute conditions, and earlier death rates. so what we did was study over 260,000 north carolina eons, who lived in 150 neighborhoods in durham county, north carolina. and what we did was measure structural racism in their neighborhoods, and better their health. we defined structural racism as factors which work together to create discriminatory conditions in neighborhoods that disadvantaged ethnic and racial minorities. we looked at 16 factors, which included the neighborhood racial composition, education and employment rates of a community, income and poverty rates in the community, criminal justice, housing, voter participation, and even the amount of green space and tree cover in the neighborhood. and what we found in short was that if there was more structural racism in a

neighborhood, the health of the neighborhood was worse. so if you had higher structural racism, you and your neighbors are more likely to have higher rates of kidney disease, diabetes, and high blood pressure. these are 3 major conditions that we are fighting against in the united states, and major conditions that we know that ethnic and racial minorities suffer worse outcomes from. we's -- sorry. you asked me about why we chose durham, and i just wanted to say, durham north carolina has a huge range of living conditions. all the way from severe poverty to extreme wealth. and so it provided an opportunity for us to look at this for the first time and to take several different types of data that were available, and from the community, public records on income and poverty, criminal justice, but also compare those 2 health records that had been made publicly available by the county of melt -- so that we can look at neighborhood health. >> dr. black stuck, this study, it defines structural racism as the means by which societies

perpetually id discrimination to interconnected systems, including housing, education, and unemployment. can you clarify for our audience of about how the prevalence of certain factors like housing, schools, and the quality of medical facilities, they are all in a case of structural racism which can then negatively affect these actual health outcomes? >> yeah, thank you so much for having me, and honor to be on. thank you for this study, it's important to inform what policy makers need to do. i think so often we think about health as individual choices that patients make. and instead, we really need to understand how practices and policies, the legacy of slavery, the legacy of gym crow, current day systemic racism, impacts the health of our communities. so when we have people with housing insecurity who live in food deserts, who live in communities where there is not

enough green space for them to walk around or to work out, where they're not able to find meaningful employment, with are not able to have quality education, we know that racism is a key driver of what we call the social determinants of health. and what we see in terms of health inequities and health disparities are the downstream outcomes of those. so i think it's so important for us to connect the dots, the dots that need to be connected are that individuals are only responsible for about 20% of what makes them healthy. the other 80% are these systemic factors that the doctor and her colleagues studied in this very, very important research that needs to inform how communities and resources are given. so for example, we have seen a chronic disinvestment in black communities, and communities of color. which have led to these poor health outcomes. so the results that dr. -- study showed really needs to inform policies, policies that

impact health on a more hellenistic level, so it's not just about what medications a physician prescribes or a health professional prescribes, it's about what is the prescription for making a community healthier. what will allow it to have the higher quality education, better job opportunities, more green space? all of that is critically, critically important. and i'm so glad that we are now discussing those factors, instead of what happens inside of an exam room or a clinic room. because we know what happens at the community level has the highest and most significant impact on the health of our communities, and our communities deserve that. because of the housing policies and other racist practices, we are seeing what we are seeing now in terms of these high burdens of chronic disease in our communities, diabetes, high blood pressure, chronic kidney disease, essentially, it's killing us. so i think there's an obligation for policy makers at the local, state, and federal

levels to partner with community organizations. i also think with health care institutions, there's an obligation for them as well to really look at what strategies we need to employ to mitigate how the impact of the legacy of systemic racism, past and present, and what's happening even current day in our communities. >> i want to pull up with you about your book, because it is both a family member, and it's really an unflinching critique of the american health care system. it looks at the widespread health disparities that are faced by black americans. your mother was a doctor, and so is your twin sister. what has changed over the years, and what hasn't, in terms of how the medical field plays a role in reinforcing structural racism? >> yes, i mean, it's so rare for me to be able to say that i'm a 2nd generation black women physician. saying that, i'm proud of that. but i'm also the consequence of systemic racism. that's why i can say that. but also, what i will say is

that a lot of the inequities that were present when my mother was still alive have worsened today. the black maternal mortality rates are even higher now than when my mother gave birth to me. so that is a problem. that is a significant problem. we are seeing how the impact of systemic racism is, and we need our health care institutions and our health care systems to be active participants in addressing that. that they cannot be passive about that. we need to have -- it's not just trainings on unconscious bias and how to be anti racist. this is about putting practices and policies within our health care institutions so that we don't perpetuate the systemic racism that black people and other people of color face outside, just living their daily lives. so we need health care systems really to step up and provide culturally responsive -- quality care, to black people, and other people of color in our communities. >> this is such a critically important conversation, and

something that i could talk to you both about for a lot more. but unfortunately, we are out of time. doctor anthony, and dr. jay blacks talk, thank you to you both for this important discussion on policy, health, and structural racism. coming up, all evil she might not be here this holiday weekend, but he did leave us a little something behind. we will be bringing you one of his favorite velshi banned book club conversations from 2023, a discussion about the great maja angelou's magnum opus, i know why the caged bird sings. you will not want to miss it. i'm charles coleman junior, and we will be right back with more velshi, only on msnbc. velshi, only on msnbc. mop and bucket clean in half the time. ♪♪ mop smarter with the swiffer powermop. love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot.

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discussion about the great maya andrus magnum opus, i know why the caged bird sings. you won't want to miss this. i'm charles coleman junior, and we will be right back. we will be right back. buy one ng in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. [music playing] mother 1: who is that? that's my doggie. charlie: cancer, it's different in a child because your child is still growing. i had 14 rounds of chemo. there's thousands and thousands of kids all over the world who need help. child: it is my first time having cancer, and it's the very worst.

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everyone knows the name my angelou. poet, activists, educator, singer, dancer, one of hollywood's first black female directors.

the list goes on. everything she touched brimmed with her unparalleled creativity and brilliance as a writer and a creator. angela delivered poems before presidents, she was awarded the national medal of arts by president bill clinton in 2000. later, the presidential medal of freedom by president barack obama in 2010. she was awarded more than 50 honorary degrees. she learned 6 languages before her death in 2014. but, do you know her story? today on the velshi banned book club, we're going to examine the first of angeles 7 autobiographies. her magnum opus, i know why the caged bird sings. this autobiography is one of those rare works that you cannot summarize. the books lyrical language, the vivid imagery, the last carefully interwoven themes are better read than explained, but this is my job, so i'm going to try. first published in 1969 and never once taken out of print, i know why the caged bird sings

depicts angela's quote -- from 3-16 in the american south, and later in california. sent by their mother to live with their beloved and principled grandmother in rural stamps, arkansas, maya and her brother bailey are plagued by feelings of abandonment and subject to appalling incidents of racism. back with her mother in st. louis, maya is attacked and raped by an adult man at just 8 years old. that insane francisco, maya becomes pregnant at the age of 16. and then there is a break in the clouds. she learns self love, to trust in the kindness of others, and she learns the power of great literature. if you're in search of an easy, light read, go somewhere else. i know why the caged bird sings grapples with serious and demanding themes. racism, resistance, community, rape, identity, and freedom, but for each moment of pain and abuse and searing injustice, the reader is treated to a moment of beauty.

a lavender taffeta dress, the black national anthem led by a skinny 8 great boy. the joy in hearing a poem read out loud for the very first time. ultimately, this autobiography is an exploration of angela's growth, from self loving to still love. if you didn't know and really was a poet before opening the book, you will by the end of it. and lou masterfully mixes that vivid descriptions with the language of a pot -- in a way that was unheard of for autobiographies at the time that the book was published. even now. this book is a master class in coupling compelling use of similarly and metaphor, with a direct and informal voice. the genius though, does not play in angelou's use of words. the literary critic pierre a walker focused on the books structure in his 1995 review, noting that the book is written

in thematic, not chronological order. each short story presents a moment in introduce life resisting racism and oppression, a lesson. i know why the caged bird sings is simply put, a classic. this booker grounds the reader in the brutal realities of racism in america, it pays homage to the tradition of autobiography, and it realistically depicts the lifelong struggle with sexual assault and rape. to even consider banning a book of this magnitude is simply outrageous, and yet it happens again and again. we must keep space on our shelves for this book. and keep time to explore it with our students, regardless of their backgrounds. this is real life. this is maya angelou's remarkable real life. joining me now is an esteemed member of the velshi banned book club, the dr. amani perry. she's a professor of african american studies at harvard

university and the author of the national book award winner of south to america, journey below the mason dixon to understand the soul of a nation. dr. perry, it is good to see you. thank you for being with us yet again. you've been a frequent guest of ours here, because when we cannot introduce an interview some of these great authors because there are no longer with us, you are our best choice. you have studied these people, you have honored them. so thank you for joining us to discuss the enduring relevance of this book, i know why the caged bird sings, and my angela's enormous legacy. welcome back. >> thank you for having me. what a gorgeous introduction. >> you know, most of us know maya angelou as this great success, in her life. does reading i know why the caged bird sings through that lens affect the book? because when she wrote this book, she wasn't who we know her to be today. >> correct. and i think part of the magic

of the book is that you understand how she got -- not standing all of this incredible trauma and adversity she experienced at a very young age, you actually understand how she could become my angelo. when you read the book, because there are these moments of beauty, there is an extraordinary love of community, her relationship with her brother, her grandmother, the command that is like a fortress against the violence of the gym crow order, and that combined with the love and language of literacy, the path which she travels becomes clear. and i think the book, part of the reason it inspires so much, is that any person who is experienced adversity can actually find a residence with the power of finding connection with other human beings, and a way out, threw beauty.

through possibility. >> one of the persistent themes in the book is self acceptance. maya angelou hearreingly introduces this starting in the prologue. quote, would they be surprised when one day i woke out of my black ugly dream, and my real hair, which was long and blond, would take the place of the kinky mass that mama would let me straighten? throughout the book, maya angelou comes to terms with her identity, and begins to accept herself as she is. but what a remarkable theme throughout the course of the book. >> it's extraordinary. she was a tall woman with a deep voice, dark skin, short hair, not fitting the ideal, not just in a larger society, but in her own community. and that theme carries through the subsequent autobiographies as well. and so again, you see this entry point for identification for readers from all sorts of walks of life. how do you love yourself when you are receiving messages that

you are inadequate? and so the vulnerability and sharing that i think is really powerful, and incredibly important for young people to have access to. >> there are many visceral and infuriating moments in these book, one that stay with me since i first read this book many years ago was the dentist scene in chapter 24. 's maya angelou develops a toothpick. her grandmother takes her to a local white dentistry woes for money and a favor. the dentist refuses to tweet her, saying quote, my policy is i'd rather stick my hand in a dog's mouth, then he ends it with a racial slur. tell me a bit about this. >> i mean, this is the kind of everyday violence that characterized the segregated south. this sort of persistence of insults and degradation. and so when you see in the text how she moves from that to these moments of greatest, of

celebration of oneself, a grooming, of a commitment to elegances, you actually understand that is a sight of resistance. so it's not simply the case that people endure, but people actually built themselves up. but that's history. that's truth. i think it's really important for us to understand how persistent and how ugly those types of behaviors were. ants that was not long ago. that was my mother's lifetime. >> you've written about maya angelou quite a bit and her memoir, in your book, may we forever stand, you recounted an emotional moment in i know why the caged bird sings when -- threatens to derail the celen of maya angelou's 8th grade graduation. it is ultimately safe by the young valedictorian, beautiful speech, and the black national anthem. which you write, quote, the negrón national anthem was a tool of transcendence. it was a tool for community

building. it was remembered by angelou as reflecting the very spirit of black resilience. i would love if you can elaborate on that. >> sure. i mean, the anthem was sung ritually, and so when she concludes the moment, when they sing the anthem as a way to, in many ways, restore the beauty and the celebration of the graduation after insult, she actually captures in the most powerful way why lift every voice and sing was so important. it was a song that allowed them to tell the story of their lives, and of their people. and this epic, gorgeous terms, as opposed to as they were depicted, as a people without history. and so she puts place in this scene, but the meaning is so great. because it encapsulates this spirit of resistance that was so pervasive in the segregated

south and black communities. it's a really beautiful moment. >> dr. perry, it is a pleasure as always to talk to you. it's a real honor that you view us, because you are a celebrated author on to yourself. but to have you be able to help us with these authors who are no longer with us is something we really appreciate. dr. amani perry is a historian and professor of african american studies at harvard university. she's also the author of the very important book south to america, a journey below the mason dixon to understand the so of a nation. it's a must read. >> that does it for me this morning. thanks for watching. velshi airs every weekend morning from 10 am to 12 eastern. i'll be back again tomorrow, sitting in for my boy ali velshi. but be sure to catch a lead tomorrow evening at 5 pm eastern, when he joins the ever and russell -- for the 13th and review awards. and a quick programming note, a new morning show is coming to msnbc weekends. my friends and colleagues ne sanders townsend,

michael steele, and alicia menendez are teaming up for a brand-new political morning show. the weekend, which premiers on saturday, january 13th, at 8 am eastern. that's just 2 weeks away, and we couldn't all be any more excited about it. in the meantime, stay right where you are. alex witt picks up the coverage after a quick break. a better plan is verizon. it starts at 25 dollars a line. (dad) did you say 25 dollars a line? (sister) and save big on things we love, like netflix and max! (dad) oh, that's awesome (mom) spaghetti night -- dinner in 30 (dad) oh, happy day! (vo) a better plan to save is verizon. it starts at $25 per line guaranteed for 3 years and get both netflix and max for just $10/mo. only on verizon.

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