good avening and welcome to .

politicsnation. tonight's lead, trump in or out. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> there is just hours left in 2023 and if this last week is an indicator, the looming presidential primary season will be dominated by without republican front runner donald trump can legally seek the office again. three years after he fanned an insurrection. this week that states of maine and california said yes he could. the state of maine said no he couldn't. but there are just three out of

more than a dozen states weighing the issue. and trump head and especially venomous message for one michigan lawmaker who get to criticize his increasingly nasty campaign language over the christmas holiday, dragging her late husband into the war of words. that lawmaker, congresswoman debbie dingell joins me shortly with her reaction to that and to trump's enduring impact on her state ahead of 2024. and 2024 contender nikki haley has had an entire week to demonstrate that she knows the root cause of the civil war. the enslavement of black people. but the former south carolina governor still has yet to come clean about one of america's greatest stains. more on that tonight. plus filmmaker ava duvernay is

with us tonight, live. her new film has big questions about race, class, and injustice through a black woman's lens. we'll talk about the film and we are hollywood stands on diversity going into the new year. and a big box office win for the latest film a version of the color purple. later in the show. let's get going. joining me now is congresswoman debbie dingell, democrat of michigan. congresswoman, forrest, thank you for joining us and we are starting with michigan, tonight, and the states supreme court decision this week to allow donald trump to remain on the pellet for michigan's presidential primary in two months, despite legal challenges to his candidacy stemming from his conduct on january 6th. the decision affirms a lower court ruling that only

political parties can pick their candidate and michigan, not elected officials. and it comes the same with the state of maine remove trump from its primary ballot while california kept him on. and in just three of several states, that either have or are considering whether trump can constitutionally run for office, what do you make of these developments, congresswoman? >> first, reverend sharpton, it's great to see you tonight. the fact of the matter is the laws of presidential primaries are complicated and go state-by-state. they each have their own set of rules. each party makes their own set of rules, which very few people understand. i think the primary system is harder, more difficult. i think michigan's supreme court interpreted straight with what state law is and that's what you're going to have

different opinions and territories as well. so i think it's going to make it for a complicated as we move towards who the candidates are going to be at that she annual election. >> i hate that i have to even ask you about this, congresswoman, but what many of us were celebrating the holiday this week, donald trump was denigrating you and your late husband, congressman john dingell. lynch and. it was denigrating him on his truth social platform, calling you a, quote, loser and criticizing you as ungrateful for funerals honoring and giving honor that he grounded in 2019 as president --

>> you call for civility this week in response. do you still feel that way cannot? >> i feel even more stronger than i did when i stepped up. what was asked the question about what i thought was happening in this country, the increase in violence and hostility. and i'm worried about it. i think it is the threat to our democracy. i think christmas -- all the holiday spirit celebrated right now is a message of joy and hope. -- not an appropriate message for any here. and i'm not afraid to say it. i think we have got to stop or stand up. it's seeping into our everyday vocabulary, what's happening -- what's being said on social media. what's happening in some goals and shopping centers. they are not okay. and we have got to view civility against cruelty.

we can and must stand up to it. we can disagree or a great was that, not the right we're beginning to normalize it in this country. >> the new york times is reporting a republican from your state has expressed deep regret for acting as a false presidential electors on donald trump's behalf in 2020. he's one of 16 fouls trump electors to have been charged by that michigan attorney general for their participation. he's also the only one of them to cooperate with the investigation in exchange for charges against him. three states have brought charges against fake electoral schemes. several others are investigating. what do you hope to see come out of these probes ultimately? >> i think that everybody in this country is entitled to due process. nobody is above the law.

i think we have had a lot of people who do not understand everything yet, that happened, and relation to the last presidential election. how people tried to change what the people's will and peoples votes were. and these cases you are seeing are trying to bring the truth. i ask everybody who's watching tonight, pay attention to the cases. people need to be transparent in these cases and really understand what was happening in different states around the country. and people trying to subvert what the real election outcome was. >> we are list and 36 hours from 2024. what would you say our or should be, as democrats top priorities in 2024? >> we have a lot of them to glory. about keep the government running. we've got to stop the stopgap

measures. i'm very afraid we are going to shut the government down in january. and that's my first and foremost -- with cook to continue to support the president on bring inflation down. people are still worried about increasing health care costs. we have got to worry about our national security and what's happening around the world. you know? what there are a lot of very important critical problems that impact every single day we need to be working on together. republicans and democrats. instead of all this drama and all this incivility towards each other. >> thank you for being with us this evening, congresswoman debbie dingell of michigan. joining me now is my political panel, democratic strategist michael hardaway and republican strategist susan del percio. let me go right to it. earlier this week, and my capacity as a founding president of national action network, i condemned comments made by presidential candidate

and former south governor nikki haley, in which she declined to say the civil war was fought over slavery. she later clarified comments, but the fact that she did not mention slavery at all, and a very long answer, i might add, about what caused civil war is pretty astonishing. i want to remind my viewers that this summer i took my daughters to the former plantation south carolina where my great-grandfather, coleman, was a slave. we stepped into the hood where he and an untold number of other slaves were held against their will. he worked that land and eventually separated when coleman was sent to florida to pay off a date for his slave owners. he received his freedom because the union won the civil war.

yet, we are here more than 150 years later, still fighting for his memory as well as the countless black americans who never lived in freedom and that struggle will continue until we understand our history. so it can guide us to be a more just nation. michael, what are your thoughts on this issue, specifically the political context as we enter this 2024 race for a candidate to just amid slavery from a long answer of what caused slavery? >> two very brief thoughts. forest, from a political perspective. it says a lot about nikki haley. it says that while she's intelligent enough to understand how horrific slavery was, and the context of this country and it connection to the civil war, she is playing into the radical right-wing fascist sect of her party that

donald trump's group of people who support him and all his radical policies. that's one thing. second thing is, i think in this country there is a fundamental understanding of how horrific slavery was in this country. that's what i politicians like her and others who just as much. at that reality is, right, of your ancestors and might run on it stolen from her land and forced to work with that period involved regular state sanction beatings and rape and all these other things people had to endure. so i think with better education in terms of how horrific the period was, we can stop having to go through these time periods were politicians just sort of -- our dismissive and disrespectful of that history and the people who were descended from. it >> i notice you said her and other candidates. because let's not forget. this isn't the context of another candidate, governor ron desantis banning parts of black

history from the schools in his state of florida. i mean, it seems to be a whole strategy on the rights. but susan, i want to hear your thoughts on this, in terms of the good old political maneuver, say something for your base and then apologize and hope that some don't hear the apology. what's your take? >> right, i think it was a little more calculating than that. if you look at after she heard the question, she walked away, she looked down, she paused. i can't tell you how many dozens of candidates i've given those tips to to say, if you need a minute to think, do those kinds of things. she calculated what would be the best answer and should i mention slavery? during the primary campaign? politically, not mentioning it, especially in new hampshire, is just political stupidity. and that way she tried to clean it up didn't help or any. and the other thing i'm

wondering about with nikki haley, specifically on this, is will it hurt some of her big donors that have come to her side after, you know, try and desantis and a few others? >> michael, we mentioned the fact there are lawsuits pending in more than a dozen states, debating whether or not to allow donald trump to be on the primary ballot. based on his conduct on january 6th. so far, he was kicked off the ballots in colorado and now maine. but remains in california and michigan. but all of those cases are pending the appeals process. and will probably land at the supreme court. what is your take on all of this, michael? >> you know, it's very interesting that many people on the right who supports the second amendment and other parts of the constitution all of a sudden have amnesia in terms of how important it is we adhere to it. so the constitution clearly

states here that anyone who's taken an oath to uphold the office and that has gone against the state subsequent to that is not fit to hold office again. it's very clear. and it applies directly to donald trump as it relates to january 6th. so in terms of how this plays out, i think, you know, i'm a little pessimistic in terms of what the supreme court would do when it comes to them. but the constitution is clear in terms of what could happen. here donald trump is not qualified to be president again. >> susan, you published an op-ed on msnbc website urging isa hutchinson to drop out of the gop primary before the iowa caucuses. hinting that chris christie should do the same. saying that they gave it a good shot, spoke out against trump, and stay true to their values. but they both have only two weeks to do it. explain. >> sure, rev. i was surprised tonight asa

hudson was still campaigning in new hampshire. it was only because of the political article at mentioned in the column even had a clue. so i was trying to think, what's the purpose there? and it seems to me that isa hutchinson, like chris christie, are trying to stay relevant. instead of not focusing all of their effort on defeating donald trump. even in a general election. and that's where they really have to stand up. it's time for them both to make an announcement, stepping down, let it come between nikki haley and ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy in iowa and new hampshire. and i know it's hard for christie, but i'll tell you something. there is nothing senator than seeing a politician trying to be relevant. and there are gonna be illusions as a result of. it >> sends this is the last time i have you both on the show in the year of 2023, please give me your prediction

of the winner of the iowa caucus and possibly it will be the gop nominee eventually. susan, you go first, then michael. >> i think that donald trump will win it and become the nominee. however, i think that nikki haley has a very good chance of leapfrogging into that number two position above ron desantis because his campaign is just going down and flames. >> michael? >> i agree with susan. it's donald trump all the way. everybody else is playing for a distant second. it really just boils down to which of those people are willing to subvert their own beliefs to become his vice president. >> michael hardaway and susan del percio, thank you both for being with us this evening. coming up, but look back at 2023 and a special thank you to the ones i like the most. that's right after the break. start your day with nature made.

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to acknowledge a most important part of the politicsnation community. and that's you, the viewer. because of your loyalty, this program celebrated its 12th here on the air in 2023. and on proud to say we had the highest concentration of black viewers of any show on cable news.

we strive to bring you a unique perspective on politics. and this year alone, we were joined on this program by 40 members of congress, ten u.s. senators, four governors, including possibly the next speaker of the house, hakeem jeffries, just to name a few. vice president kamala harris gave me an exclusive tour of her inside office at the white house. we set in the white house west wing for a far ranging interview, exclusively. and i hope to see her again in 2024. and we heard from a few people you might not expect, like trump lawyer joe tacopina or republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy. we also committed to bringing you the latest on social justice. this year, we covered the 60th anniversary of the march on

washington, which i helped to organize in my capacity as head of the national action network along with martin luther king the third and andrea. we also cover the tragic stories of tyre nichols, jordan, neely aj owens, dexter wade, and others. we remember their names and spot leather cases, for all of us. so real justice can be served. and we always serve the news with a little bit of color. some of my favorite celebrities joined the show, including rapper chuck d, actress sheryl lee ralph, and comedian kagan thomason. as a travel the country in the world, it's always a pleasure to run into random people who watch the show. i'm always struck by two things. the first is how well informed, thoughtful, and passionate you are. the second is you come from

every walk of life. this audience is made up of people of every race, religion, age, class, or gender. we don't all agree on everything and yet, somehow, we managed to come together for a selfie and a few hours every weekend. that gives me hope for the future. thanks again for watching and get ready for all the stories and that news that will cover for you on this show in 2024. we'll be right back. when you smell the amazing scent of gain flings... time stops. (♪♪)

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politicsnation. a current jury and oh set to decide whether a woman who missed carried a nonviable consequences after beingal charged with a felony for abuse

of a corpse. brittany watts, who is black, miss carried into her toilet, according to a criminal complaint. her attorney has stated that the miscarriage endangered her life. now legal and medical groups are calling for charges against watts to be dropped. it is just one of the few cases right now that put abortion front and center as a political topic ahead of the 2024 campaign. joining me now is alexis mcgill johnson, that president and ceo all of planned parenthood. what thank you alexis, for joining me today. so this case in ohio is an example of how easily pregnant people can find themselves in trouble with legal enforcement ever since the overturning of roe. how are you concerned about the precedent this case would sit if watts was to be convicted of

this? >> absolutely, arrive. and thank you so much for covering this story. brittany watts, i thought about her all of this holiday season. the fact she is now sitting facing a jury around loss of her pregnancy, right? we are in a world now where we often talk about 21 states have abortion bans. but what we are not really saying is abortion bans actually made criminalization of pregnancy loss. it remains the fact that someone like brittany watts, who is a young black woman in ohio, who is based -- facing pregnancy loss. that's normal, it happens in many pregnancies, unfortunately. it's not been criminalized. and no one that a young black woman. we're always worried about these abortion bans,

criminalization's, abortion access would impact young brown and black woman motors proportionately. we are seeing that play out in real life. and we know this is a heartbreaker of things to come. >> this is not the first time we've heard of story similar to this audio case. for instance, in texas last year, a woman reportedly charged with murder after miss carrying. prosecutors ended up dropping the charges in that case. but what do you think can be done at a state level and federal level to protect women in any state, conservative or liberal, from charges like this? >> let's talk about the implications of what it means to criminalize pregnancy loss. we're talking about patients who are worried about disclosing anything that has happened to your close family and friends because they don't want to trap them in any kind

of potential aiding and abetting. it means providers are afraid to treat these losses. so you have many abortion providers who are worried about their own, you know, personal liability and implications. and you have an entire criminal justice system that really doesn't understand, right, public defenders all the way up to prosecutors and d.a.s who don't understand what it means to criminalizing somebody's preconceived loss. these are private medical decisions. so from a state level, you know, they have many alternatives. to ensure they actually focus on -- what is happening now to patients like brittany watts, to focus on ensuring they're given the biggest care they need and sending them to the right emergency help they can. not standing them out of state

like a -- had to travel out of state and texas, to ensure they are getting the best public defense, to ensure they are getting all of the care they need. instead what so many of these horrible state regimes right now are doing is focusing on criminalizing what unfortunately happens and is common in many practices. >> earlier this month, the supreme court agreed to take up a dispute over medication, a pill used and the most common method of abortion. it's the first abortion case since it overturned roe last year. the justices will hear appeals asking the high court to reverse a ruling that would cut off access to the drug through manual, among other restrictions. even in states where abortion remains legal. are you hopeful this will be the first by this court given its current makeup? >> first of all, i just want to

say, it remains legal. there are people in need of the pill and the next few months, i want to ensure that while this case is being considered for the supreme court, they're able to get the care they need, but let's be real. why are we even here? it's unprecedented. the courts are now once again taking up bodily autonomy, rights to reproductive freedom, challenging the fda's approval of a drug that has been used over 20 years for a 5 million patients in 60 countries that have used mifepristone to safely terminate pregnancies as needed. and here we are, given these decisions over to courts and politicians when people and their medical providers need to be able to make decisions of their own. so once again, abortion will be front and center in 2024. it will be, in fact, in front of the supreme court in june

and we will be looking to see where they are focused. because we know there are so many stories like britney,'s kate cox, and so many others you mentioned that will be now very common among american voters. we'll be curious about how to access and ensure their vote matters. >> as you stated, the decision is likely to be made latejune. which is right in the middle of the 2024 presidential and congressionalcampaigns. and florida, a group of abortion rights groups say are close to collecting enough signatures to put a constitutional amendment that would protect abortion on that ballot next year. while conservatives have been fighting to keep it off the ballot. how do you see the abortion issue impacting the 2024 elections, and in fact in many things, voting rights and immigration rights and other things that have tried to bait,

in my opinion, shifted backwards and splintering some allies that have been together through a lot of these -- had to use safe is playing at with abortion rights and other rights under a threat and a supreme court that is leaning towards that right with three appointed by donald trump? >> look, i think that's exactly the right question, reverend sharpton. here in florida, you have floridians protecting freedom. they were able to secure at 1.4 million petition in order to get on that ballot in florida. that is huge. and 200,000 of those came from republicans. so what we're already seeing, we know this, it's been proven in 2022, 23, and will status and 20. for every time abortion rights are on the ballot, freedom winds. and i think that is actually

also a harbinger of what's to come for all the other issues. we're seeing so much division. people trying to make cases, disinformation, misinformation around voting rights, protecting basic rights for bodily autonomy. what we read in our history books, what we understand to be true and real freedoms, and we see all of this opposition forces trying to divide us. and what we know is, florida is going to be one major appellate and i should if that's going to then again demonstrate to us freedom is on the ballot and you can go and vote for that and it's going to be so important because florida is one of the most critical point in the south for us to act. as we have another number of bell and issued. have another number of issues that will be fought on the state level that are going to draw people out and ensure that not only abortion rights are going to be front and center in

the 2024 election, but all of our freedoms, as we align a very strong group of american citizens, who are deeply concerned about belonging, about our sense of freedom, and our rights are going to show up and be powerful. >> alexis mcgill, ceo of planned parenthood, thank you for being with us this evening. >> in a moment, emmy award winning director ava duvernay brings us isabel wilkerson's caste to the big screen. her latest project. i'm excited to talk to her in person, night tonight, next. t tonight, next.

i'm happy to close this year in politicsnation with a visit from not just one of my favorite filmmakers of all-time but one of the most prominent filmmakers of the last decade. a black woman who has dramatized our joy and pain on that big and small screens. and director ava duvernay's latest project, origin, adopt a best selling book on race and class. to connect the dots and the differences between the black freedom struggle and the injustices faced but minorities worldwide. joining me now is film and

television director ava duvernay. ms. duvernay, thank you for joining me tonight. we love that you are our final politicsnation guest for 2023. before we get to your film, origin, which i watched last night and took a lot away from, all it using it in sermons, but don't tell anyone. i want to get your reaction to comments made this week by republican presidential candidate and former south carolina governor nikki haley who refused to identify slavery as the primary cause of the civil war. and failing to do so even given the chance to clarify her remarks. what were your thoughts on that tonight? >> hello reverend al, i'm happy to be with you whenever i get the chance to see you. good evening and thanks for having me. i think there are two pretty

challenging issues when you think about that nikki haley debacle we're all experiencing. either she didn't know that slavery was the reason for that civil war beginning, or she doesn't want to say. and wants to kind of continue the lies of that mission that have become the hallmark of her party. you know, a party that is thriving off of the idea that you can take knowledge out of the public sphere and defend things that are unconscionable. and so it is not surprising but certainly part of an ongoing litany of real warnings that i think we should all he'd. they're basically saying what they want to do and what they will do and what they've already done. and so, i heard that and wasn't

shocked by it. but feel like my hope is it's a wake up call to dangerous and deranged idea that history doesn't matter anymore. and that's one of the big reasons why i wanted to make this film. >> i want to get your film. this latest film, origin, which is brilliant, ambitious, and inspired by the book caste. the origins of discontent. by author isabel wilkerson. to me, the film is a long list of questions reflecting that book. it's a quest for answers about race, class, and social mobility. here is a sample. >> on this day, he folded his arms rather than salute a regime that deemed that love illegal. on this day, he was brave.

he couldn't have been the only one who felt something tragic was happening. so what was he the only one among that meant to not go along that day? perhaps we can reflect on what it would mean to bait him today. i'll leave you with that. >> i, mean that was one of the compelling seems to me. as the adopter of a book has wilkerson found the answers to the big question she engages in a review? >> you know, i think one of the things that really attracted me to the book and one of the reasons what i want to make the film is i think the book and hopefully the film itself becomes a place for engagement around questions. i like the idea that at the end of the book, after reading it even three times, i had more

questions. and feel that agreement is not the goal. engagement is the goal. we want to be able to talk to each other about what is failing us. and so often we don't do that. we are in solace, we're in our own corners. i like the fact that the book asks more questions than answers. and hopefully the film does that as well. >> you know, the killing of trayvon martin underpins this film from its original scene. i was very involved in the trayvon martin movement. it hit me hard because, i'll never forget when attorney ben crump came to meet with the details of that tragedy and brought the parents of trayvon, which occurred less than a year after this show launched. i put them on the show to help stir out the march as we did and make it national. you've been dramatizing our

pain for a decade now, gone back to your 2014 film selma. and of course your tv series, went they see us, a few years ago, which prompted you to open this film with trayvon's story. what the book was, is that what prompted you to start the film, the drive on story? >> i feel like, reverend al, i don't know if i feel i'm dramatizing our pain, i feel that i'm dramatizing our triumph over continuous efforts -- adversity. and all of the stories, in order to show at we made it over. we had to shut what we are making it over. and even talking with miss fulton, triathlons mother, shea in the same way of mamie till, the great tradition of black mothers who want to talk about this. to share, to show, to make sure

that these instances, these murders, miss injustice is not forgotten on the road to justice. and so, in the film, and in adapting that book, caste, isabel wilkerson told me that trayvon martin, that case, was one of the early and foundational cases that helped her start to think about the thesis that she would ultimately undertake proving. that that was a real impetus for her. so i want to make sure on that and opened the film with. that >> going back to your 2014 film selma, you collaborated with oprah winfrey, who also leads and the iconic 1985 film version of the color purple. i remember have accomplished patient with you and oprah and south africa when all of us were there to be part of the

ceremony, i keep a picture in my office, all of you and oprah and me backstage. we were both doing different things celebrating the 100th anniversary of nelson mandela. she's a producer on this latest film, the color purple, which just became the second highest grossing film to premier on christmas day since 2009. coming off historic strikes and hollywood and we heard on this show from black creatives worried that film studios will be adverse to taking perceived risks on black voices going forward. as an industry veteran, do you think the box office successes of your films and the color purple will push studios to keep taking those perceived risks? >> no. no, not at all. that's why i made origin independently. this is not a film study it would make. hey, i want to make a film

about caste. i want to make a film that addresses the unfolding of a mystery that affects us all. something that we don't even talk about. the hidden arcs of history and power and injustice. that's not getting greenlit quickly. and stories along these lines, you know, from people of all colors that actually are talking about history, talk about contemporary, social issues, our really difficult to get made. so for us, we did not do that. weight raised that money independently, through philanthropic organizations and like-minded individuals who believe in justice and dignity for all. i wanted to make the film -- campbell eastwood, antigen ski, people, chris paul, people who got together and said, we need to talk about these things in our movies. and since the studios won't do it, we will. to your question, i think there are some beautiful treasurers

that make their way through like the color purple. beautiful film, gorgeously done, and having a lot of success. but overall, we need to find new ways to tell the stories we want and need to tell. >> you have told it well over and over again. honored to end this year on this program with you, that one and only ava duvernay. thank you and good luck with that movie, i recommend. it >> thank you, reverend al, we it opens generate 19th, happy new year. >> happy new year. up next, my final thought, stay with us. with us. zero heartburn. what is cirkul? cirkul is the fuel you need to take flight. cirkul is the

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tonight, i want to wish you all, all our loyal viewers, a happy new year. and a treat for you on our last show in 2023 is tomorrow on politicsnation, the 13th aua revvie awards. it will celebrate the best and worst of politics in 2023 and give awards to those who deserve it. that's tomorrow, sunday at five pm eastern, right here on msnbc. after that braces -- break, american voices with guest host julián castro. n castro right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes.

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