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awards from rockefeller center. here is your host, al sharpton. >> good evening, and welcome to politicsnation's 14th annual revvie awards. it's where we celebrate the best and worst of politics in 2023, and give awards to those who deserve it. i'm honored to have been bringing you some of the most significant and memorable moments this past year, and what a year in his been. with that, let's bring in our esteemed panel this year. jen psaki. i'm so proud to have her with us, host of inside with jen psaki. right here, an msnbc. republican strategist and msnbc

political analyst, susan del percio, who i would say is my favorite republican. [laughter] and ali velshi, host of velshi, also here on msnbc weekends. and he's wearing his -- i thought it was a clergy caller at first. [laughter] >> people were accessing for some blessings, so. >> let's get right to our first revvie. of 2023.est political headline i'll share a few of my own nominees to get us started. my first top news story, the. trump indictments. americans have never seen a former president charged criminally before 2023. this year, they got to see it four times over. it often felt like trump's been spending as much time in courtrooms as he did on the

campaign trail. yet, none of these alleged crimes have prompted any punishment from republican voters. trump still commands a sizeable lead in the polls. my next nominee, republicans gone wild. republicans got the house back this year, but never seemed to be in full control. it took kevin mccarthy 15 rounds to be voted speaker back in january. and just ten months to be booted from the job after another 21 days of chaos, mike johnson took the gavel in late tober. only time will tell how long he can hold on to it. and my final headline, shutdowns and showdowns. when republicans weren't fighting amongst themselves, they were pushing our government to the brink. from the debt ceiling, to spending bills, hard-liners in the house gop made a dramatic

show of impeding progress on capitol hill. only to fold and kick the can down the road at the last minute of every deadline. we let's start with you, jen. >> first of all, it's hard to beat any of those. those are all related to, is the thing. i mean, the republican chaos as related to trump. the dysfunction in washington is related to trump. as they say, the fish ross ahead. we know who the fish is and where the head is. there's a good ones. can i add another one? >> please. >> i also want to add in, i know you're gonna talk about israel, because we've been covering that so amazingly. but also, abortion rights. we started this year a year ago. and we would've thought, i don't know, is it still gonna be on the minds of people? are they still gonna care? and what we saw over the last couple months as women care, medicare, independents care, democrats care, even republican women care. so that's, i think, a big

headline to from the year. >> i agree with that. when it comes to the trump indictments, i would say the second indictment, i think it was june 8th, we were celebrating nbc news here at the rockefeller center. and i remember, everyone was looking at their phones and indictment -- you started hearing. we >> -- >> exactly. it was crazy. and all of a sudden, lester holt gets up, and he's ready to speak, and he says, i've gotta go, because those breaking news. >> it was like something out of a movie. >> it was. the headlines screamed, but it was also a personal moment. when you saw it all happening around you. that was certainly a big moment. but the second one, i agree with jen, is abortion rights. especially in ohio this year. seeing that break the way it that, ohioans have a state we look at as purplish. it is a red state, and the fact that we saw that come out of ohio again we --

there's a lot to talk about their. but i think going into 2024, more than joe biden, more than donald trump, the two likely nominees, abortion will be the top of the ballot. more so than anybody else. >> and i want to take the same point farther. we've been talking for a long time about the erosion of democracy and whether americans take that seriously. i think we've seen them take it seriously. we're saying it's abortion. but i think it's rights. >> yeah. >> whether it's abortion, book banning, whatever the cases, americans are putting aside whether they self identify as, in some instances, as republicans and democrats when it comes to things that look like the rights are being taken away. and they're marching with their votes. they're doing things that we have watched for several years now. we watched it with the black lives matter protests. we watched it with other things, where americans are saying, we can debate where we stand on particular issues, but please

do not take my rights away. please do not take the rights of my fellow americans away. we can discuss what we like and what we don't like. americans have decided to become the footsoldiers in defense of democracy. i was worried that sometimes, we didn't take seriously the threat to democracy. we're actually in the fight. and i think at is the biggest story for me this year. >> okay. now, when to the revvies four heroes and heels of 2023. my first hero's house speaker, house minority leader, i said speaker -- [laughter] we but, the leader, hakeem jeffries. through all the spending bills and speaker fights, leader jeffries kept democrats united while republicans were at each other's throats. in just his first session at the helm, jeffries has proven to be a worthy successor to nancy pelosi. our other hero, we kentucky

governor andy beshear. the democrat cruised to reelection in a deep red state. a deep red state of kentucky, emerging as one of the country's most popular governors. bashir was the face of a surprising successful off your cycle for democrats who also passed a measure of protecting abortion rights and ohio, which you mentioned, susan, and captured both chambers of the virginia assembly. i'll let you go first. hero and he'll. >> it connected. yusef salaam, and donald trump. many years ago, yusef salaam was one of the central park five. donald trump talk at an ad that suggested they could be executed, because he wasn't into trials and things like that these days. >> i would've thought of the protests. >> that's right. use of salaam gets elected to the city council. that was no surprise in the election, because he was uncontested after winning a

primary. but it's not just that he won an election. it's the little business of these acts of courage that people commit. if i was yusef salaam or anybody who had been wrongfully imprisoned, i'd be pitched off for the rest of my life. i don't know how productive i'd be. and this guy comes out, runs for office, and is now going to be a servant of the people in a place that put him in jail while donald trump is facing justice. that feels ironic and interesting to me. >> and interesting that he got to see donald trump going to be arraigned in the same building that he went on trial. >> susan? >> i think my hero is the young woman who showed up in the beshear abortion ads. >> oh, yeah. >> telling her story. and that she was -- even being unaware of it when

she was 12 years old. and the impact i think it had on that race, and showing how extreme the kentucky legislature were willing to go as far as not allowing abortions in rape, incest, and life of the mother -- really hit home. not only was that important for the race itself, but -- the heel, and i'm not gonna say this is the worst person, because donald trump obviously owns that 100 percent, but someone who really let down her state's governor hochul. and i say that when it comes to the migrant crisis. eric adams may be having his own political problems right now, but when it comes to the migrant crisis, kathy hochul said it's a new york city problem, not a new york state problem, and she really let him down, because it was at a time when the mayor of new york needed all the help he could get, and frankly, kathy let him hang there.

>> and when i go you first on the heels and heroes, jen, but let me say my heels of 2023. i want to highlight my favorite florida man, starting with congressman matt gaetz. few politicians, not naming trump, have dished out more self inflicted wounds on the republican party. congressman gaetz forced mccarthy to accept a historically weak speakership, and then exploited that vulnerability to replace him with this far more radical speaker less than a year later. only time will tell whether gaetz will cost his party the house majority in 2024. but my ultimate he'll wears them in his b sunshine state governor ron desantis, once in georgia, leg up another challenge is -- 2023 was the year of desantis stumbling in his race for the white house.

whether it was his off putting demeanor or his obsession with anti-wokeness, governor ron didn't exactly -- >> did you give ron desantis the heel because he wanted to say that joke? it was a very good joke. i'm gonna go against the grain of my 20 plus years and democratic politics and do a bunch of republicans. because i do think in washington post, it's much harder to go against the grain than it is to kind of follow the soccer ball. so i would say my heroes are liz cheney and mitt romney. i never would've thought that. that would've been -- and worked for obama when we ran against romney. liz cheney, obviously disagree with her on many policy issues. but what they both did was they stuck their neck out. -- standing up for the constitution. and aligning themselves with

people they had visceral policy disagreements with. that was not easy. it cost them both a lot. they're my heroes. my heel, i think he might be my heel again next year, i don't know, is mike johnston. that guy won, i mean, ambition is not a crime -- but that guy put aside -- and in liz cheney's book, she basically says he did what was wrong when he knew better. that's a paraphrase. that is not leadership. that is not admirable public service. and i think all of this -- last couple weeks have been a reminder of the role he played in january 6th and congress. she outlines it in her book. and for me, he is somebody who is allowing ambition and his pursuit of power to override what i think people who have been close to him for some time would say he doesn't necessarily agree with. >> all right. we're just getting started and. i --

>> will change your heel. because under donald trump's plan, his 2025 plan, when he becomes president, he's gonna hire all these people who are loyal not capable, matt gaetz is gonna be the attorney general of the united states of america, and you called him a heel, and you're gonna have to move with me to canada. we -- >> were just getting started. coming up, my panel and i will debate the debaters and crown hit this year's podium master. and, as we do go to break, a look back at some of the funniest late night jokes of 2023. watch this. [applause] >> i'm a scientist. >> now, you george santos, and you've been all over the news lying about every part of your life. >> maybe. >> well, you lied about going to and why you will. >> yes. yes yes d my skin is so much more moisturized.

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rockefeller center in new york city. and the 13th annual revvie awards. here again is your host, reverend al sharpton. >> welcome back to all of you at home. i'm here with our panel, jen psaki, susan del percio, and ali velshi. time, now, to hand out our

revvies to the best debaters of 2023. this year's republican debates may have been the political equivalent of the kids table at thanksgiving, but some candidates did display proficiency at the podium. my rookie of the year was vivek ramaswamy, the brash and abrasive newcomer didn't make many friends, but certainly generated a lot of heat with his debut at the debates. take a listen. >> so first, let me just address the question that is on everybody's mind at home tonight. who the heck is this skinny guy with a funny last name, and what the heck is he doing in the middle of this debate stage? let's be honest about republicans. i'm the only person on the state who isn't bought an bag for, so i can say this. >> whoa, whoa. >> climate change is a hoax. >> -- joining tiktok while her own daughter was actually using the app for a long time, so you might want to take care of your family first.

>> leave my dog out of your voice. >> another standout performer was nikki haley. the former south carolina governor showed herself to be well-rounded as a debater. just as comfortable delivering an inspirational personal story or a savage burn on one of her opponents. >> as that front like to say, they're five inch heels, and i don't wear them unless you can run in them. >> we've got to have you on stage. >> the second thing i will say is i wear heels, they're not for fashions dayton, therefore ammunition. >> every time i hear you, i feel a little dumber for what you say. >> but my pick for a debater of the year managed to win without even setting a foot on stage. and that's former president trump, who wagered his supporters wouldn't care if he didn't jump in the ring with

the likes of dog bergheim, or a saw hutchinson. and so far, that bet has been proven to be correct. jen, debate away. >> i mean, trump is the winner, as you said, in the sense that he is still very far ahead. if you just looking at performance, though, as we're talking about here, i think nikki haley's foreign away the best debater, and i actually think it helped her move ahead in the polls. because these debates were marched by a diminishing numbers, but still by many, many people, and she came across, whether you agree with her or not, i don't agree with her on a lot of things, as like, smart, confident, and also able to throw a punch that came across as sort of in the moment. you know, one of the worst things when you watch debates is when people spit out a phrase or a prepared line, and you're like, that was a prepared line. so i thought she was the best debater even through the last

debate. >> i agree with jen. i think it was nikki haley. another skill you have to bring to the table is what's given to you on the stage at the time. and she, i think, really i was a lot to ramaswamy, because she used him as the perfect foil. she swatted him around -- when she swatted him around like a fly, people paid attention. they looked at her, she said she can go on the attack. she showed how completely -- >> when she didn't know what attack was coming. >> that's it. she has the skills. i think i heard you say that recently about her, rev. she has skills. but ramaswamy, i could argue, has led her to coming into second place, because he was always there and fell into it every single time. >> he's the foil every time. that line about every time you say something, i feel a little dumber -- i don't know who's gonna top that line in january.

>> and that just propelled her further and further ahead. even though, really, none of the folks up on the debate stage had much to say. >> i agree. i'm going outside the box on this one. gavin newsom, who early in december had a 95 minute debate with ron desantis that was 95 minutes longer than it needed to be. i'm not entirely sure why he did it, but it was worth it. there's a guy who's not in the race, he's not running for president, so far as we can tell, and he got in there just sort of say to ron desantis, you speak so much nonsense that i'm gonna engage in an hour and a half long debate with you just a diffuser nonsense. and it was tough, because ron desantis can bring more things than you think he can bring. you had a poop map of san francisco. so i'm giving it to gavin newsom for getting involved in a debate he didn't want to get involved in. >> who would've ever put ali velshi still outside the box? still ahead, politics are not a spectator sport.

we'll look back at top moments when the people took the power for themselves. we have more of the revvies coming up. for you, and your friends. fellows, family members, during this holiday season, and more lighthearted moments from the year are still ahead. >> mr. ramaswamy, if elected, what would you do on your first day in office? >> i'd like to begin by not answering your question and instead use this platform to say, her daughter's on tiktok. >> keep my daughter's name out of your voice. what is — wow! sinex. breathe. ahhhhhh!

here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. >> how did i lose?

this is chaos. some of us are here to actually serve the american people. all i want to do is get congress back to work so i can shut it down again. >> we are back to politicsnation's 13th annual revvies. i'm here with our panel to hand it this year's power to the people honors. going to this year's most impactful grassroots efforts. my first nomination goes to reproductive rights advocates in ohio, who managed to protect abortion access, winning two ballot initiatives. abortion opponents tried every ick in the book to complicate

the process,but ohio voters never seemed confused. my second nominee, america's labor union. especially the writers guild. -- united audio workers. during the so-called hot labor summer. workers stand upfothe rights, and end up negotiating new deals with better pay and more benefits. the high-profile strikes we could ultimately have an impact far beyond detroit in hollywood. finally, i must recognize the activists some organizations involved in this year's march on washington. in my capacity as head of national action network, i helped organize the event, which i call a continuation, not a commemoration, of the 60th anniversary of the regional much. but i have countless volunteers and benefactors to think for making the event a big success.

panel, your thoughts? ali, let's start with you this time. >> i really like the labor union won. but you took, it so i can't use it. we >> -- this is a woman who is fed up with this so-called grassroots movement to ban books. the group that -- book bans's running to contain the school board -- she organized candidates to run, and all five of her candidates won, and they are now the majority of the bucks county school board. and i think that's the kind of small acts of courage that will go on around the country in the next year that are gonna see the preservation of democracy. this is someone who was -- he was an activist, but she wasn't called to do this, and she decided to take it on and say, i'm gonna fight. i can't fight everything going

on in the world. there's lots of bad stuff going on in the world. is lots of bad stuff going on in politics nationally. but i can fight in my district, in my county, and my school board. she fought and she won. >> susan? >> i'm gonna go with the voters of virginia. more specifically, the grassroots effort of the democratic party in virginia. because there was an effort by glenn youngkin, who is being hailed as the one who will save america, for all i know, and perhaps enter the presidential race, because he bet it all on taking control, republican control, of the state legislature. anyone out there with an abortion ban platform. and district by district, and this is what's hard, they didn't fight back on a statewide platform. they went in seat by seat, and not only did glenn youngkin's pack where they spent millions upon millions of dollars fail, they lost seats. so i think it shows the importance of grassroots efforts whether republican or

democratic, to get in there and recognize the importance of legislative races, whether it's the lower house or the senate. and that's where change happens. and i say that especially when we look at abortion rights and the bigger picture. because it's all happening at the state level. >> that's so true. as a virginia resident, grassroots activism, i'm gonna say the young gun rights advocates. gun violence advocates, i will say. because a lot of these young people, they're in their twenties, have survived gun violence at the schools were just in circumstances they lived through. i'm thinking of maxwell frost, he's one of the youngest members of congress. he came in, he wasn't intimidated, he's been outspoken over and over and over again. david hogg who started a new organization to lift up young people running for office. they are relentless, their tireless, and they raise these

issues, and they show up for people, which i think is so important. they show up for communities, for highschoolers, for college kids who are also experiencing tragedy. so i would say -- >> you did a great interview with both of them. >> they're both great. >> you're right. they shot for the people. because i see a lot of people in the work i do but never show up for the victims. and once they go from headlines, you never hear anything from them again. and they also work with other things. when i pick the march on washington, when i was involved with martin luther king the fed, they went out. they spoke on that platform. so they're not into this, i'm on my side, leave me alone. i think they've been very, very effective, and a lot of times, you meet young activists letter just on their thing. they've been able to be very much air. i've been very impressed with the gun rights activists. you're right. stay with us. we still have plenty to come to

cover, including our favorite. the blueberry pie award. >> the new speaker of the house is mike johnson. and if that name sounds familiar, it's because it's on every fake i.d.. hi, i'm mike johnson. [laughter] just two for packs of mike's hard lemonade. >> the 13th annual revvie awards we'll be right back. awards we'll be right back awards we'll be right back ah you are, because it's a big deal, when you get a big deal. wayfair deals so big that you might get a big head. because with savings so real - you can get your dream sofa for half the price. wayfair. it's always a big deal. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ my skin has been so much smoother so much more hydrated. it's olay! with olay hyaluronic body wash 95% of women had visibly-better skin.

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for our politics favorite. the alfred she sharpton blueberry pie lifetime achievement award. every year, you look around and ask, who has the most blueberry pie on their face? my first nominee is former new york representative george santos. we'll have to send him his slice in the mail, since he's no longer welcome on capitol hill. santos was expelled from congress after an investigation found he spent campaign cash on botox and onlyfans. nowhe threatening to tell all about his ex colleagues. unfortunately, santos is not exactly a narrator. my other two picks are returning champions. starting with elon musk, the

tycoon who has pry on his face again this year. not only are advertisers fleeing his platform because it contains more not see content than, quote, producers. elon also capped off a year by going full anchorman on his sponsors, telling them to go take a hike. >> this had been set online, this all the criticism, there was advertisers, we even thought -- >> i hope they stop. don't advertise. >> you don't want them to advertise? >> no. >> what do you mean? >> if somebody's gonna try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money? go bleep yourself. >> but -- >> go bleep yourself. is that clear? i hope it is. hey, bob. >> but the biggest, stickiest

blueberry pie slice of all goes to kevin mccarthy. the california congressman sold his soul first speakership shorter than britney spears's latest marriage. in 2023, mccarthy went from third in line to the presidency to pushing matches in the congressional hallways, and as this year and's, mccarthy has announced he'll be leaving congress for good. it was truly a fall from grace. and one for the ages. susan, anyone else you see where the blueberry pie on their face? >> i'm doubling down on george santos. he doesn't have it on his face, he took a huge dive into a vat of blueberry filling. -- what he has put this congress there, if you think about it, in many ways, just having the

votes, having the small margin when it comes to basically kevin mccarthy not doing the right thing when it came to george santos and seeking his -- he has just brought so much disgrace upon the congress and the country, and he does it all while now making more money than when he was a sitting member of congress. he's doing cameo appearances. so let me urge everyone, don't pay this guy a nickel. stop. >> oh, i mean, i'm just gonna nominate clarence thomas and the supreme court as supporting actors here. because what was exposed this year is something we all probably suspected or new for some time, which is that they have no code of ethics that they have to follow. members of congress, if you're in the federal government, you literally can't accept more than a mug. still, they have a weak, toothless code that they have all put out --

solve the problem. and they're still the most important judges in the land. so we learned a lot about -- that's certainly the most jarring and alarming. but if i'm understanding the pie analogy best, i think what we've learned here is they all have pie on their face for their ethical -- >> when they came with their -- >> toothless -- >> they still had the pie on their face. >> i'm staying in the legal arena. after the george indictments came down, there were so many people involved in that but some of them decided they were going to take please. one that i found the most interesting was general alice. a woman nobody used to know. she would show up next to rudy giuliani when all those press conferences, including the four seasons landscaping company, and she would just talk, and talk endlessly about stuff that was entirely nonsense. when she took her plea and she made a statement, she said, you know, i knew what i knew then,

i would've defended donald trump. come on, man, you just need to -- watching that with something. it was notable, that's exactly right. >> you've got anyone else you got with blueberry pie on their face? >> like i, said george fandos gets all the pies this year. but george santos and kevin mccarthy where my two top ones. watching 15 rounds of kevin mccarthy become speaker all for it to end this way within a year's -- >> fastest blueberry pie. >> cream on top, something? you've got to make it special for him. stay with us. coming up, my panel looks into their crystal balls to predict what will happen in 2024. don't go anywhere. >> after a judge issued a gag order against president trump, trump told reporters that the judge said, basically, i don't have the right to speak. then he added, she's like, literally killing me. then he yelled, you're not even

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laughed. [laughter] >> okay, we are wrapping things up here at the revvies. ending with a look at our judges great expectations. their predictions for 2024. now remember, which you say is on tape. [laughter] and will be served again -- against you next year. so, in fact, take a look at last year's predictions by susan and ali. >> this time next year, donald trump will not be a candidate for president. >> oh? >> really? >> not until the end of the year, so. >> hopefully it's before every required the revvies for 2023. so we'll talk about that. >> well? >> -- i was hopeful. >> you are hopeful? >> i was hopeful. and yes, i have a horrible record on the show for making predictions. but i'm gonna keep that streak properly, but maybe not.

maybe this will be a good one. if the abortion issue can be in the florida constitution, so the florida constitution, if they can get it on the ballot for 2024, which the working for, but they need an awful lot of help from national groups, with abortion on the ballot in florida, biden only lost by less than three points. i predict that florida could be in play for joe biden in 2024. and along with those -- >> that biden could win. >> all right. that's a bold prediction. >> with abortion rights being on the ballot, that's the crux of it all. if it's not, i don't see it happening. if that voter turnout can change -- or on desantis only one 30% of the. nobody showed up when -- he won by less than 1% with 63% of the people turning out. with abortion on the ballot in 2024, i think you're gonna have

a huge turnout. and if we see it, biden can win it. but the folks in florida need a lot of help to get it on the ballot. >> we're not playing any of my bad predictions, are we? -- same guy as last year. >> i will say, you guys talk about gun rights activism. you mentioned maxwell frost. if you think about this last, year you got maxwell frost, you've got justin j. pearson, justin jones in tennessee, you've got a bunch of these really young people, whom i would've thought, given the last seven or eight years in politics, might be disillusioned, might sit it out, we're not just good, but they thinkers. today our strategic. levelheaded. those to check. even when -- legislature, unite talked about it. that was strategy to it. someone said to me one-time, they're just doing it for the media.

and we've said, yeah, actually, they are. >> they were activists -- >> you can go beyond that. you can talk to these young men and women across the country. in the 2030's. and imagine that they could be president of the united states of america, or governor of their state, or a senator. so while we agitate over all these people who -- running for national office, they sometimes talk about the general age of it, i'm seeing a group of people who are gonna come into the limelight in 2024 and away we haven't seen before and reinvigorate voters because they're gonna say, i see the future of america running. and that's what's gonna make me turn out to vote. >> so inspiring. i'm glad you mentioned the justin's. because i feel like watching them speak was so inspiring. and then meeting them in person, as i know we all have -- equally so. and they're coming out of their -- >> i spent some time with just

in from nashville, levelheaded, mature. and because you made a lot of the young activists, it's just -- and i like that. >> and not disenchanted. okay, i'm gonna -- speaker of that house and a year. and i'm gonna give myself two caveats as to why. i actually think, as you said earlier, that hakeem jeffries has done a remarkable job as the democratic leader. and i will say because i live in washington and talk to all these people, has surpassed the expectations of most democrats who live there. not because he wasn't well liked and well respected, but because you're jumping into a role that speaker pelosi had been in -- it's almost impossible. and he's done it in a way that's so strategic and smart. he didn't punch people when you shouldn't punch people. he punched them when they needed to be punched. part that, but also -- abortion issue in the suburbs and places where there are vulnerable races, and where

republicans are -- democratic candidates, and third, -- matt gaetz is gonna be like, wait, i need some attention. that's the whole thing. it's not about governing. it's about attention. so if he's functioning along, they're gonna be like, oh, we're tired of this. and he won't be speaker. >> that's the gift that keeps on giving. if we didn't have a might gates, we have to create one. he can't help himself. and always helps the other side. always. i was at a congressional hearing, and he jumped on me -- listed the stuff was fabricated. and all i could sit there and think about was mohammed ali when i was a kid. just lay on the ropes and let him punch himself out. and he makes a full out of himself. but he likes doing it. >> every time. >> he's very consistent. >> yeah. >> i will say one thing about hakeem jeffries that's really interesting is in a world where

everybody politicizes everything and a very partisan way, he has not. in the mess that's been going on in congress, when asked, given every opportunity, because reporters ask him every saying -- what does he think about it, he seems to be strategic about it to. he seems to be saying, if they need our help, we'll get involved, if we see an opportunity where we can help our republican friends, will get involved. he doesn't take the bait to say something weirdly inflammatory and that's. which is what you've come to expect in congress. what crazy partisan thing could you possibly say that will play on tv? he doesn't deliver on that front. >> it's a much better way of saying what i was trying to say, which is it's much easier to be a flame thrower. it feels better, people give you more high fives, you raise more money, it's better on twitter. and he has moments where he's done it. but he doesn't do it all the time. he strategic about it, which i think is so smart. >> which is why he's taken

seriously. i don't know about in 20 years -- he's always been like that. very strategic, always looking at what is the end goal. i've got to get you on the record here. he was gonna be the president elect in 2024? >> well, it's gonna be joe biden or i'm gonna be -- >> doing irma. we're gonna come live with ali and canada. >> i'm gonna stay in my optimistic ways, and say joe biden. i think the -- country will wake up. when you see how much donald trump hates america, i think people will once again say he cannot be the president. i don't think it'll be because joe biden is gonna be loved and brought in and people are hailing him a hero. but i do believe that they will know what donald trump really is and -- >> i think definitely, joe biden. because we've seen time and

time again, an underestimation, sometimes in the polls, but also in commentary, of kind of what the american people will stand up for. ali mentioned democracy earlier, we've been talking about abortion. i love joe biden personally, but people don't have to love him personally. they can recognize that the choice between them is standing up for democracy and my rights or the alternative. and that, we've seen, time and time again, actually motivates people to go out. >> yeah. this business about needing to love him, or wanting to go out for a beer with him, all this nonsense, this is not the air for that. >> not at all. it's all at stake this year. well that does it for us. had a lot of fun. thanks, really, a lot of gratitude. and even jen, of course you, susan, and ali, thank you again. remember, politicsnation is live each saturday and sunday at five pm eastern, right here on msnbc. have a wonderful 2024. rful 2024. rful 2024. i was born with idiopathic infantile scoliosis.

i've had 17 surgeries. i was born missing my lower right foot. i was born ten weeks early without my left arm. i have osteogenesis imperfecta. i've broken over 70 bones in my lifetime. with my polio i have tough days

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