my question to you is, do cracks in unity around the war, as sort of personified by ehud today, and hostage families now calling for a cease-fire creating space for an american president to maybe also have that kind of, you know, that kind of space for netanyahu as well. >> i mean, no one is asking, you know, president biden to completely, you know, take a different side right now. there's a way to support israel's legitimate defense. it is its right to protect its people in a way that's not, you know, obliterating gaza, as we have been saying. there is a case for president biden to pursue a policy that's different than this, that upholds america's relationship with israel, upholds the security of the people of israel. but that does not commit the atrocities that we are clearly seeing on the ground in gaza. and i think that is what the base of the party, and frankly, i think the majority of the democrat, democratic party

voters are asking for. >> all right, matt duss, thank you very much. that is all in for this week. alex wagner tonight starts right now with ali velshi in for alex. good evening, ali. >> important point there, this isn't an either or, all or nothing, don't support israel or do support israel. it's a measure of condition that goes along with the aid that we give ukraine or any other country that says we have to prosecute this war in a different way. >> in fact, it's interesting one of the things that we learned, right, during the early days of the war was very intense conditions placed on ukraine about attacks in russia, specifically because of fears of blow back, of escalation. and it was, this was an active conversation, very, ve clearly. >> very early, and they're constantly. i'm glad you brought that up. thank you, my friend. have aooweekend. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. i am ali velshi in for alex wagner. last month, the united states economy gained 216,000 jobs. unemployment kept steady at an

historic 3.7%. at anthat marks three consecute years of economic growth in biden's three years in office, and along with more jobs come consistently higher wages. there is no way to paint this as anything but good. so, let's see how they celebrate the good news over that, at fox. >> the job numbers are through the roof. >> jobs numbers are pretty gangbusters. >> jobs numbers smashed expectations. >> of course, the left is trying to figure out how to spend these great economic numbers. >> okay, i'm getting. that isn't how they celebrated it at fox. that was fox. but that was not today. those were fox personalities talking about positive job numbers during donald trump's presidency because in fox's world, the monthly job numbers were always fantastic when trump was in charge. but today, when fox, and even fox business, did talk about biden's positive job numbers, the bulk of it sounded like this. >> we've got another strong

jobs report. but it isn't what it appears. >> under the hood, it's a rather soft number. >> this is one of those numbers when a lower unemployment rate is bad news. >> now, what makes that negative reaction to today's jobs numbers so amazing is that biden's job numbers for last year were as good or better than trump's jobs numbers for every year he was in office. the economy added 2.7 million jobs last year. that matches the best here of trump's presidency. the years one fox was saying his numbers went through the roof, gangbusters, smashed all expectations. and it's not just job growth and wages. inflation is under control. the stock market, which trump bragged about ceaselessly, is at record levels. manufacturing is being rebuilt in america. you hear a lot of republicans these days saying they want the trump economy back. what part do they want back exactly? by most metrics we use to measure the health of the economy, it is measurably

better under biden than it was under trump. but reality doesn't actually matter. this was fox and friends this morning visiting a diner in dallas to talk to voters. >> raise your hand if you think we are heading down the right direction, from an economy standpoint, that the economy is on the right track? oh thinks we are on the wrong track, economy wise? that's pretty much the entire diner. >> all right, we talk a lot about how the republican party leaders seem to be living in an alternate reality with their own alternate facts. but lots and lots of republican voters are as well, and not just on issues on of the economy. that will be one thing. but on core issues like democracy. tomorrow marks the third anniversary of the january 6th attack on our capitol. nbc news has been interviewing republican voters in iowa ahead of the primaries there, to ask them what they learned from that day. and a lot of the answers we've gotten were unsettling. >> i knew it was a lie from the

beginning. i mean, that police or provoking, i think there was fbi plans. >> i just did not like the way it went last time. i feel we got cheated. i think the media distorted it. >> i think the media gave us the wrong impression of what really happened. >> the whole thing was covered up. >> i know it was infiltrated from the first day. i watched the rally it was all planned. it was planned by pelosi and the rest of the crew. >> planned by pelosi and the rest of the crooks. now as out there as these voters in iowa were, they're not that much of an anomaly. just this week, the university of maryland and the washington post released new polling showing that 25% of americans say it is probably or definitely true that january 6th was an inside job instigated by the fbi. now, i can't believe i have to say this. but just in case some fox viewer got stuck on msnbc while trying to change channels and

the remote just ran out of batteries, january 6th wasn't an inside job instigated by the fbi. now, you can change your channel. there is the real evidence of that. 25% of america believes that anyway, 34% of republicans, if you want to look at it that way, 34%, more than a third of republicans believe it was an fbi inside the top. what makes this all the more daunting is that sentiments like these are getting more popular. in 2021, 27% of republicans blamed donald trump for the events of january 6th. now, after the house january 6th hearings, after trump has been indicted multiple times for crimes he allegedly committed that day and leading up to it, now, about half of that number, only 14% of republicans, blame donald trump for january 6th. and trump himself has embraced january 6th. he's retained that narrative as his own. he kicked off the first rally of his 2024 campaign last year with this, a song he recorded with a group of inmates in

prison because of their actions on january 6th. that's some weird stuff. he has pledged that he will pardon all the january 6th conduct, if he's reelected. these are the people that committed a violent insurrection and attempted to keep trump, who had lost the election, in power. and rather than distancing himself from them, he embraces them. he is rewriting history and a growing number of americans are believing his rewritten version. tonight in iowa, trump again repeated the lie, telling a crowd of supporters at a campaign event that there was antifa. there was fbi. there were a lot of people there too leading the charge, his words. and that comes just hours after the supreme court announced today that it will be taking up the issue of whether or not donald trump can be disqualified from the ballots in colorado because of the role he played in the insurrection. we're gonna have some expert help on unpacking that whole thing in just a second. but what cognitive dissonance this is! what a gap between trump's narrative and reality!

tonight, president biden gets the first major address of his 2024 campaign on the eve of the three year anniversary of the january 6th attack on our capitol. biden spoke just miles away from valley forge, where george washington immobilized troops nearly three centuries ago in the revolutionary war. the president framed this election as just as much as a fight for our nation's democracy as washington's was back then. to biden, this election is a fight between truth and lies, and that stakes in that fight are as high as they can be. to biden, this is about the future of our democracy itself. >> when the attack on january 6th happened, there was no doubt about the truth. at the time, even republican members of congress, and fox news commentators, publicly and privately condemned the attack. as one republican senator said, trump's behavior was

embarrassing and humiliating for the country. but now, that same senator, and those same people have changed their tune. as time has gone on, politics, fear, money, have all intervened. and all these maga voices who know the truth about trump and january 6th have abandoned that truth and abandoned democracy. they made the choice. now, the rest of us, democrats, independents, mainstream republicans, need to make our choice. i know mine. and i believe i know america's. >> joining me now is tim snyder, history professor, author of on 20: 20 lessons from the 20th century. professor snyder, good to see you. you help us understand in the early days after this january 6th insurrection, this concept of the big lie, the idea that regardless of whether we have evidence, and we can see it in

2023, much better than you could in the 1930s, 1940s, regardless of that, if someone lies enough about something, about how the election went, or what happened on january 6th, people can come to believe it. history shows us that. and what we have watched in the last two years is exactly what you warned us what would happen. >> yes, i mean, the important thing is the scale of the lie. you tell a lie that's so big that people can live inside it. you tell a lie that's so big that people won't believe that you would deceive them on that scale. there has to be a certain you have to be a certain kind of person to do that with a certain kind of motivation. unfortunately, we did not have a politician like that in the form of mr. trump. we are now living, a lot of americans now are living inside this lie. and it means, you know, mr. biden has made a couple of important points. one is that you can't really do democracy without truth. and the other is that you can't really do democracy without a sense of responsibility. >> i've lost count of how many times you and i have talked in

that period. but there is one composition that sticks out to me. it was the end of the conversation where i said, did, you can have the conversation you can have, write the books, go on tv. and i can do what i can do. what can most people do to inoculate themselves? and you gave me a litany of things, including, you know, voting, running for your city council, supporting, subscribing to your local news. what can people do to inoculate those around them, as we are finding more and more americans are believing this lie, rather than fewer of them despite more evidence coming out? what can those of us who believe democracy is at stake do for others? how do we have that conversation? >> you and i have the great luxury that we can have this conversation in front of lots of people. but what we all have to be having is this smaller conversation. you know, over the holidays, i've had some smaller conversations. you have to have small conversations. you have to play this small game. you have to treat this as a kind of, for the next ten, 11 months, you have to treat this as a struggle where every every little bit matters, where every editor, every conversation,

every subscription, every support of the good reporter, all these things are going to matter. every phone bank, every little thing is going to matter. we have to treat this, i think president biden was right, it's a sacred cause. but the sacred cause doesn't defend itself. it gets defended by 1 million people doing 1 million little things. >> and when you look back at the last election, the 2020 election, it was closer than most people think, 70 plus million people voted for trump, 70 plus million people, 80 plus million people voted for joe biden. but actually, more people did not vote then voted for either of them. so, are the third of republicans who believe all this nonsense, are they movable, and where the attention should be? or should we be concentrating on something else? >> i mean, i think that is interesting because i think what mr. biden is doing, in terms of strategy, is actually running on the economy. i mean, i think the idea is that the economy is doing very well, and it's going to show itself. and they are going to run in principle on democracy. i think it's that principle stand, if they can hold it

above policy, which reaches the people who may disagree with him about policy, right? i think that's probably the right thing to do. you know, there's probably a 25% of americans who are not movable. but there is a meaningful, if shrinking pool of people who care about the system, but who disagree with the policies. and i think those people can be reached, if not vote for biden, at least not vote for trump. at the same time, one of the things i like about biden's speech was that he emphasized that democracy is a good thing, right? it can just be pitched as we're gonna lose this status quo. it has to be pitched as democracy is much better than the alternative. and we can make it still better in the future. >> but when you think back to a place like germany in 1933, there were some people who were fleeing. they were understanding that this was gonna get very bad. and it may be hard for people to remember how big and important a country and an economy germany was in the 1930s. there was a real fundamental belief that this can't really fail.

and there are people in america who feel the same thing. there are people in america who say, donald trump didn't really break anything. i mean, it's all survived despite his efforts. what do you say in response to that? >> i really appreciate this, because this is the kind of thing where historians, you know, we understand that we try to teach that a lot of things are possible, that don't seem possible. the 20th century really should've been germany's century. but some people made some mistakes at a critical time, and it wasn't. instead, what is germany remembered for? it's remembered for the nazis. the 21st century, structurally, for lots of reasons, really should be americas century. but we can still choose to blow it. a few people can do a few big bad things. a lot of people cannot care enough about the execution. and we can blow it too. we can lose the century. the future is open, unfortunately, both in a good sense and in a bad sense. >> tim snyder, always a pleasure to talk to you. appreciate your wisdom, and thank you for making us all smarter about this. tim snyder, history professor

at yale university. coming up, i'm gonna speak to pulitzer prize-winning journalist and creator of the 16 19 project, nikole hannah-jones, about some newly-reported double standards showing those who clamor for the resignation of harvard university president, claudine gay. plus, the supreme court announced late today that it will take up the issue of whether trump's actions on january 6th can disqualify him from the ballot in colorado. andrew weissmann is standing by to discuss this big legal development. that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - food fight!! - food fight!! ♪♪ cold water, on those stains? welp, only one way to find out... tide cleans better in cold than the leading bargain detergent in warm. ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is- busted! i always wanted to say that! turn to cold, with tide. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone.

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and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. tonight, in a widely

expected but important decision that could shape this year's presidential election, the supreme court announced that it will review the unprecedented ruling from colorado's supreme court last month and that deemed the former president donald trump ineligible to run for office and that state. colorado's highest court ruled that trump was ineligible to appear on the states primary ballot because his actions leading up to the january 6th attack on the united states capitol meant the constitutional definition of insurrection, among other things in their decision. now, in a one page order this evening, the supreme announced it will hold oral arguments on the case next month, on february 8th, which to be clear, in supreme court time, it's light speed. following the announcement, corroded aquatic secretary of state confirmed that as a result of the supreme court agreeing to hear the case, she has now certified trump's name

on the colorado primary ballot. so, what happens now? how will the supreme court proceed? w will the elections proceed? joining me now, i'm really grateful for this, andrew weissmann, former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel that investigated russian interference in the 2016 election, and co-host of incredible msnbc podcast, prosecuting donald trump. i feel like i will just, i like to interview yourself for this. because this is a confusing issue. let's just go through this bit by bit. colorado supreme court says trump is ineligible. they put out a pretty important and well studied decision on this. but immediately, they stayed the decision until today, until january 5th, because this is the day the ballots have to be printed for colorado. the day thnow, what happens? >> they actually did more than that. for everyone who was criticizing colorado, they were showing great restraint because as you said, they did find that he should be disqualified, but they immediately stayed the

decision, and they stayed it with the two different triggers. they said that it is stayed until today unless the supreme court takes it, we're gonna hear the case, in which case it stayed until the decision comes out. so, they basically were saying that, you know, if the supreme court wants to hear that, we are stepping aside because obviously, we are subordinate to the supreme court. there was a stay in place. they, the supreme court took the case. there is still a stay in the case which means that a ballot in colorado will have trump's name on it, for the moment. and then, obviously -- >> and it's not a political decision by the secretary of state, as a result of the supreme court taking this case, the colorado decision is on hold. >> exactly. and the secretary of state is following the law, which is that she was told that, you know, this is what you have to do, and that the decision is on hold. so, she has to follow the

current law. and then, obviously, will decide on february 8th. we will have the oral argument. i would expect a decision very soon. >> the primary is on march 5th. >> and there are other primaries even before that. there is overseas voting. there's the bouts that go out. this will be quite complicated, assuming that colorado's decision is affirmed and it will be very complicated to figure out not just in colorado but in the other states how to deal with the various challenges. >> colorado's decision is affirmed, donald trump is ineligible to be on the ballot on the basis of section three of article 14th, 14th amendment of the constitution. what happens then? >> right. there's a challenge in maine, presumably unless there's some other issue that arises. that's in very good shape. he can be off the ballot there. we are hearing that other challenges, and plus the supreme court will where to say, depending on how they say it, that this is a viable theory,

and it works. you can imagine other lawsuits being brought, for instance, in michigan, there was a case that said, you know what? this may be right but it's not right at this stage. it may be right later. you can see a proliferation of these cases, depending on how this supreme court rules and what grounds they choose to affirm it. >> and supreme court, it's not always binary. sometimes it's in the middle. we don't really outgunned ago. let's say they largely come down on donald trump's side, that he is not disqualified. what then happens? >> as we were chatting about it, just to be clear, donald trump has many, many arguments because it only takes one for him to win. so there's a lot of off-ramps for the supreme court if they want to rule in his favor. assuming that they were to say that colorado supreme court got it wrong, and assuming it's not just a sort of a state procedural rule that they will rule on. but they said for instance that the office of the president is

not covered by this amendment, in which case these are all gone. this whole theory is dead at -- >> at that point, nobody keeps suing on this, because the supreme court is no longer -- >> the highest court, that's what the rule of law means. we are a rule of law country. we are still a rule of law country. and regardless of, you know, who is running for office and the support for them, the conversation just a moment ago with tim snyder, but we will follow that ruling. >> there is an argument that trump is making in this particular instance that some political commentators are making, most legal people are not making this argument, and that it is unsound for the courts to make a decision about who the president of the u.s. should be. so, michael luttig, they tried, and you, and other people have, that the law is the law. the supreme court needs to interpret it. the law says, if he's an eligible to run, that's what it is. the argument that you should just let him run so that people can decide is not a strong legal argument. >> the problem with that

argument is let's just take it out of this context of that insurrection and rebellion, and we had somebody who as a teenager, running for office. >> he was very popular. people really liked him -- >> wonderful, exactly. but that is part of our democracy, which is the constitution. i don't understand the argument of it's somehow not democratic. the constitution was part of a democratic process and it took a supermajority to have the constitution. that's what we follow unless it's changed. -- the courts that decide ultimately what the constitution says. and regardless of which way the supreme court comes out, if every eight argument, they will have determined how we are supposed to interpret this provision which has not yet, to be fair, has not yet been the subject of litigation at this supreme court level because we

have not been in a situation, fortunately, for this country. we have not been in a situation where you have a viable candidate for the presidency where the issue is, just a step back, because of the legal point, we have somebody who's running for office, who is more than a viable candidate who has been found to engage an insurrection or rebellion. >> i've been sweating this all evening knowing that you are gonna be here, it made it a lot easier. i appreciate it, my friend, andrew weissmann, thank you for your insights tonight. andrew weissmann, by the way, a former member of the robert mueller's special counsel and he is a co-host of the msnbc podcast, prosecuting donald trump. we got a lot more ahead, including the pulitzer prize-winning journalist and creator of the 1619 project nikole hannah-jones, who joins me live in studio all the latest developments underscoring the hypocrisy surrounding the former harvard president claudine gay's ouster from the institution. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain

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here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi

and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. today, in a continuation of the ledger some story that we've been following, we saw an apology. it was sincere, and it's one from which we can learn something. it reads in part, quote, there are four paragraphs in my 230 page ph.d. dissertation where i admitted the quotation marks for certain work that i used. for each of the four paragraphs

in question, i properly credited the origin sources, authors with references at the end of each subjects paragraph and and a detailed a bibliography in the end pages that the dissertation. in these four paragraphs, however, i did not place the subject language in quotation marks, which would be the proper approach for crediting the work. i regret and apologize for these errors, and quote. facing a wave of plagiarism allegations, a senior and accomplished academic has apologized, again, reviewing her work and proactively launched the process of seeking correction. the academic in question here is mary oxygen, an architect and artist was also a tenured professor at the institute of technology from 2017 until 2021. the apology came after the business insider at the magazine uncovered multiple sections of her 2010 dissertation, or she lifted entire chunks of writing from other scholars without proper quotation or retribution.

now, i know what you are thinking. who is neri oxman, and why should i care? what neri oxman date happens more often than you might think in academia, especially if the academic uses technical language. she has apologized, as she should have. she is fixing it, as she should, so what is the big deal? the big deal is that neri oxman is not an obscure academic. she is the wife of bill ackerman, a billionaire hedge fund manager and harvard dorner who joined forces with anti lid crusader -- oust claudine gay over literally the exact same thing. last month, when harvard decided against removing gay as president, after pressure under at least stefanik, that -- a coalition of mostly conservative men held by ruffo and ate it heavily by ackman and has millions of followers on ex, launched a public campaign against gay. they reportedly accused her of

plagiarism, repeatedly. like oxman did, gay ask at the university to adjust her work. then she apologized and saw corrections, and when they were not satisfied, her detractors, including, bill ackman, she resigned as president. but that is not enough for ruffo or ackman. for some reason, gay is different from neri oxman. in a post on x, ackman get not questioned his wife's body of work, he made -- immediately came to her defense, writing, quote, part of what makes mary human is that she makes mistakes, owns them and apologizes when appropriate, and quote. for oxman, her apologies and ownership of her mistakes maker human. for claudine gay, the former black president of harvard, such accommodation and empathy are not available, because also today, ruffo began questioning the data that gay used in her work. and ackman repeated calls for

her to be fired altogether. this way of doing business still hasn't and. this story is not over. tonight, new information here. business insider is reporting what it says are more examples of plagiarism in neri oxman's work, including a passage of her dissertation that appears lifted directly from a capito. so, what is bill ackman's response tonight? he is saying, we're coming from you. we're coming for all of you. in another post on x, he wrote, quote, this experience has expired me to save all news organizations from the trouble of doing plagiarism reviews. we'll begin with their view of the work of all current and what the faculty members, president corn bluff, other officers at the core portion, and its board members for pleasure zoom and quote. we will share our findings and the public domain as they are completed and the sake of transparency. that is where we are right now,

weaponizing accusations of plagiarism against academics who don't like. not your wife, but the other. once if you like claudine gay, think defending the sensibilities of people like bill ackman, if he finds your appointment offensive, he will come for you. groups of people like rufo, like ackman, will target you, they'll find and exaggerate mistakes that you have made, and they will weaponize them. you will not get their empathy and not get their sympathy for your humanity if you make mistakes. we've seen the story before. we've seen it recently. the pulitzer prize-winning journalist nikole hannah jones has experienced it firsthand. she joins me next. she joins me next. plaque psoriasis... for the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding that outfit psoriasis tried to hide from you. or finding your swimsuit is ready for primetime. dad! once-daily sotyktu is proven to get more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu;

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jones was going to make history. two years after launching the 1619 project at the new york times, where she placed the contribution of black americans at the center of this country's history, and one year after she won the pulitzer prize for her work, the university of north carolina and chapel hill announced that it was hiring nikole hannah-jones. she was going to be the first black scholar appointed to be the so-called night chair. historically, deposition comes with tenure, but not for hannah-jones. right wing opponents and a top donor at the university demanded that you and see school of journalism is named after, objected to hannah jones

's appointment. her tenure was blocked. it took mass protest for the university to decide to grant her tenure. but by that time, she had chosen instead to join the faculty of howard university, one of the country's top historically black colleges and universities. this week, hannah-jones is reminding people of what happened to her, because it looks a lot to what happened to former harvard president claudine gay. joining me now is nikole hannah-jones, pulitzer prize-winning reporter at the new york times magazine, creator of the 16 19 project and the night share in race and journalism at howard university. as you point out, nikole, we never me on good occasions. >> that's right. >> but this one is important for people to understand, because a lot of americans have been hot. they think that claudine gay is our because she said something antisemitic, which she did not. they think that claudine gay is out because she plagiarize. she had some inconsistencies in her citations, which she

reviewed and acts corrections to, and harvard determined that that was not the proper step to take. she's out because they came for her. she's out because a very organized group of people, similar to the people that came for you, came for her. >> yes, absolutely, one, let me say, my heart is really with dr. gay. this is a woman who has had a stellar academic career, and has had her reputation sullied, strictly for political reasons. i know exactly what that is like. this is not about plagiarism. this is not about antisemitism. this is about, as he said, extremely well organized propaganda campaign from the right to make anyone, black and in a high position of power, to see a diversity i, are unqualified convention higher, another part of the anti critical race theory campaign, that led to banning books, and

that is now trying to target people of color, do a great deal of damage to the racial progress that has to be made. >> in fact, it's the same people, the same guy, chris rufo, who popularized crtc, incorrectly, who also had donald trump right what it should be. the same people who wanted to get 16 19 out at the vernacular, and started the hashtag 1776. it's the same thing. it's a diss movement that says some of you have come too far, and we're taking it back then. >> absolutely, just look at the language being used. one, as we were discussing, chris rufo it's not even trying to camouflage -- >> correct. >> he lays the playbook out, says this is what we will do, and he does it. what is disheartening is how he's able to lay out the playbook and be so successful. what happened with claudine gay? anyone who has ever were in a long form paper that goes

through multiple revisions knows that you can make citation errors. you've really are in the seams and stall times. eventually, the quotations falloff, or, sometimes, you don't cite it in the right place. >> it happens commonly? >> it happens all the time. we've seen other people who have made the accusations or related to some of the people that made the accusations to doctor gay. we're in a landscape now, because this is about politics and not concerns about plagiarism, that you cannot make mistakes. you can't make an error, especially as a black woman. >> that's the bigger issue. because there are black women who enjoyed positions of authority in this country in a way that has not been done historically, because we as a society realized that was an important thing to do, who are now the targets. every black woman in a position of authority in this country, they are going to wonder, did you really get that job properly, or were you a deficit the high, or did you get a leg up because you are black?

>> this is what i say. this is how it's impossible for black women to win in this moment that we're in, because if you're not successful, then you say they say you were lazy and did not work hard enough. if you are successful, they say that he did not deserve the. they will put you under a level of scrutiny that, frankly, none of us will be able to withstand. i know what that feels like. if you go through every single word, if you parse every single, where is the camera, where are the quotation marks, i don't think anyone is working with that level of scrutiny. we're also there to give grace and say, okay, you made an error, this is how you correct at the error. >> this is how the university has a system for that. you asked for a review, you get a review. this is interesting. this happens now to bill ackman's wife. bill ackman has been on a campaign. it's actually more egregious than anything that claudine gay was accused of doing. then he says, she's a human,

she makes mistake. i think that is a reasonable answer, and i think we should give bill ackman's wife at the grace that she made a mistake as a human. because she -- he's got money, so he is going to fund a review of every academic at m.i.t.'s research. this did not happen before there were women and people of color in power. people could get away with whatever they could play with. we were not really in a meritocracy, because a whole lot of people were left out of that discussion. >> absolutely, what we are seeing is what we have known to always been the case. white men get the benefit of the doubt. they get the presumption that they are qualified, that they are the most qualified. the person of color, particularly a woman of color, particularly a black woman, the presumption is she is not. and she is deserving at the extra scrutiny, because she should not be in the position. let me tell you, in the 380 years that harvard has visited, claudine gay it's not the first

black woman because she is the first black woman qualified. she's the first black woman who had an equal chance to actually be put into the position. and, now, she has the shortest tenure of any woman in that position. that is not about claudine gay and her qualifications. that is about a society that are not prepared to see a black woman at the citadel of american academic power. >> we've been talking about this all week. the reason i want to talk to you is i always admired your personal courage. you've come under attack on social media, from the public, from the president of the u.s., from chris rufo, from the same powers, and you are not giving up. you don't stop. you create a new reality for yourself. what's your inspirational message right now? for a lot of people in america, they are scared. that the ackman and the rufo of the world will come for them to. >> i have a few things to say. i have an institution that supported me no matter what the attacks were, and that means a lot. originally, harvard supported

claudine gay, and then they did not. institutions will have to show some courage in these moments, because what you do when you fold in the face of this is then you only encourage more of it to happen. >> yes. >> they are going to say, as they did, -- >> one down, two down, that is what they are tweeting. >> institutions like harvard, you have, power use their power, don't sell out this woman or sell out others, we know that these are political tax. the other thing i'll say is, we come from folks who have always had to fight. i understand that being in the positions that i am in, it's a tremendous privilege, i am going to keep fighting. and all of us, if we ban together against this, we will win because we are right. we have ethics, morals, scruples, humanity. so, we just cannot give up in this moment, and we can't be weak. >> thank you for everything that you have done, nikole, good to see you as always. >> thank you, always. >> nikole hannah-jones is the night chair in race and

journalism at howard university. right, when we come back, voters across voter came out in greater than needed numbers to protect access to abortion on this november ballot, looking to get over the next hurdle. governor ron desantis is handpicked supreme court. that is next. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, healthcare provider.

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wireless that works for you. back in november, ohio it's not just possible, it's happening. voters amended their states constitution to guarantee the right to an abortion, but it was not an easy road. a few months earlier, in august, ohio republicans knowing that more than half the population supported preserving abortion rights called a special election to try to raise the threshold for part passing any future ballot measures from a simple majority up to 60%. despite that, reproductive rights prevailed, as they have in each and every statewide ballot measure since the fall of roe v. wade. now, this coming november in florida, reproductive rights

activists are hoping for the same outcome. today, organizers announced that they have got the signatures of more than 1 million registered voters to put a similar question on their states ballot. if it passes, the measure with effectively undo florida's current abortion ban. but antiabortion forces are not giving up. the florida supreme court says it will take up a challenge launched by the attorney general over the amendments and language, and if that initiative survives that challenge, florida will, unlike ohio, need at least 60% of the voters to enshrine the right to abortion into law. joining us now is the executive director of florida's win in freedom coalition, it campaign organizers for the ball initiative in that state. anna, thank you for joining us. look, right off the top, you've got a higher threshold than they had in ohio. the good news is on his side. every statewide initiative so far has succeeded in protecting reproductive rights, but you're

up against something unique in florida. the culture war around this is more centered around florida. >> what is most interesting about florida is despite the fact that we live in an extremely tense political environment, floridians of every political persuasion, support access to abortion. we have hundreds of thousands of republicans, hundreds of thousands of no party affiliation voters, who submitted petitions to get this on the ballot. we're confident when we make the ballot in 2024, we will win. >> you are using examples, obviously, because there have been remarkable successes in red states, in blue states, no matter who brings the question, whether it's anti-abortion forces, or it's abortion rights forces, voters in america, it does not matter whether they like abortion or not, they simply don't want the state taking rights away. but you have been to live in a state like texas, where your governor asked taken remarkable pride and taking peoples rights away.

>> we live in a state where it's possible for citizens to amend the constitution for a popular referendum. we've done in florida time and time again. frequently, we voted in over 60% levels on fairly oppressive policies, like a 15 dollar minimum wage, restoring voting rights to felons. we do it over and over again in florida. we'll do it again, and abortion will be protected in the state. >> what should we in the rest of the country being looking at for milestones in terms of now and november. what are the things that are most important that have been in the near and term future for this effort? >> our immediate hurdle, the last hurdle on the ballot, is the florida supreme court needs to sign off on our ballot language. we need to determine that it's a neutral subject and clear and unambiguous. it means that on a single subject issue, which is clear and unambiguous, and or make about. then we'll have a statewide campaign, and it will be a

vigorous one. we're in a presidential election cycle, but we have an army of volunteers, absolute heroes, almost 10,000 volunteers working with more than 200,000 grassroots organizations across the state, having been working with us together the petitions that they generated a historic number of volunteer petitions, over a quarter million. and they are primed and ready to work on the campaign abortion on this ballot initiative. we're excited to get started. >> in the off-year elections that we saw, and in the mid term, we saw something interesting, that across the country, whether it's abortion or these other issues about book banning, another big topic in florida, it's actually driving voters out. there are places where people might otherwise vote republican, who are coming out and voting for these types of measures. do you think that this will be a motivating thing for people who will otherwise sit on their hands or not necessarily vote in the upcoming election? >> listen, i am not a political

pundit. i am a mom. i got three daughters, and i am out on the streets working on this every day. here is what i know. people from every political persuasion, republicans, democrats and no party affiliation, believe that women should have access to safe, legal abortions. it's been decided, 75% of floridians reject the six-week abortion ban passed by the legislature and signed by the governor. over september scent of florida and support the language in the constitutional amendment, and it does not matter what social economic back on people come from, what religious ethnic background that come from, they all want women and girls to be safe and to have their dignity protected, and that is sailed by a government seeking its nose frankly where it does not belong. >> we will file closely with you, thank you for being with us tonight. anna hochkammer is the executive director of the florida freedom coalition. we appreciate time tonight. that is our show for tonight. you can catch me back here ten 8 am eastern's other weekend. time now for the last word with jonathan capehart