whole point. look for people of greater virtue than you, and somebody three really aspire to as a person, and admire that. that will eat up the indy, and you will get happier in a heartbeat. >> maybe easier for us to do with their kids. have two teenagers who are born into the social media universe that you are talking about, which is frankly predicated on and the as you go through it. >> yeah, we get addicted to that in the, and that indeed will start to consume, us but it also keeps us addicted actually looking at the phone as part of the algorithm of social media. that is one of the reasons that social media consumption is one of the -- overconsumption of social media is one of the great interests of unhappiness in our culture today, and that is one of the things with young people that i end up talking about more than any other. thank >> that is for us this morning, we're back live on monday morning at 6 am eastern, have a great rest of your weekend. weekend. this is the katie phang

show, live from miami, florida. we've got lots of news to cover and lots of questions to answer, so, let's get started. supreme showdown. the united states supreme court is now set to decide whether the twice impeached, quadruple indicted, one term disgraced ex president has accused of engaged of interaction, can remain on the republican primary ballot in colorado. how this key ruling could entirely reshape the 2024 presidential election. and before criminal trials the president faces. >> with a democracy still americas sacred cause, it's the most urgent question of our time. it's what the 2024 election is all about. >> democracy on the ballot. in his strong -- strongest trump takedown yet, president biden remind americans what's at stake in one of the most critical presidential elections of our lifetimes. as the nation process to remember the violence at the u.s. capitol three years ago

today. and later, painting the pain away. the former u.s. capitol police officer returning to art to overcome the trauma from january six. all of that and more is coming up. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and a good saturday morning to you all, i'm katie phang. we begin today's show with breaking they was out of washington, d.c., with the united states supreme court agreeing to take up a challenge to donald trump's eligibility to run for president. late friday afternoon, the highest court in our land announces it will resolve the question of whether states have the power to disqualify trump from the republican primary ballot. specifically, the court will be reviewing a ruling by the colorado supreme court that disqualified trump, due to section three of the united states constitution's 14th amendment, which prohibits

those who engaged in insurrection from holding office. the eventual decision, though, will have national repercussions. several states across the country have begun to grapple with how to manage the questions surrounding trump's in eligibility. oral arguments before the court slated for february 8th, adding to what will already be a daunting legal year ahead for the former president. joining me now is glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor, msnbc legal analyst, and the host of the justice matters podcast. glenn, we were waiting for this news. it came in like yesterday. of course, friday afternoon, as things are. but let's talk about this. we're looking at the order that was entered as we noted, oral arguments are going to take place on february 8th. but there's a really expedited briefing scdu, with the original brief to be filed as early as january 18th. what are your thoughts about the fact that the supreme court has entered such a fast briefing schedule? >> i hate to look a gift horse

in the mouth, katie, i wish it was even quicker. i wish we were going to do this a week or two down the road. i understand the supreme court rarely moves at light speed. this, for them, is light speed. i'm glad they're taking it up within about a month now. i wish they would have told us more about what issues they might try to tackle in reviewing the colorado case. but i do think there are three big ones they're going to have to take on. one, the definition of insurrection, as that term is used in section three of the 14th amendment. two is the office of the presidency actually held by an officer of the united states? i think a third grader could dispatch with that question and say, of course it is. and three might be the biggest one. what process is due? for example, must congress be involved? must the courts be involved? either civil courts or criminal courts? can secretaries of state resolve this issue? when i say what processes are

due, i'm not talking about the due process clause of the fifth and 14th amendments. why? because the prohibition in the constitution involving two processes, you can't deprive somebody of life, liberty, or property without the due process of law. deciding whether somebody is qualified or not to be on an election ballot has nothing to do with the depriving them of life, liberty, or process. so, it comes to my basic definition, in the question, whether the 50 states, which are entitled to run their own elections, have rational processes in place that's all runs arbitrary and capricious to decide who is qualified and who is disqualified. let's hope this supreme court remembers that is usually quite concerned with the separation of federal power and states rights, because this is largely a states rights question. >> you know, glenn, something that is sticking in my crop right now, as we see this case

kind of barreling towards the finish line with the scotus, you and i as trial tried casess a trial court judge that listens to the evidence and listens to the facts. this was a five-day trial. i want all of our viewers to understand there was a five-day trial that took place in colorado. so, when we do talk about some due process, trump was afforded that due process when he had that participation in that five-day trial. but will the supreme court justices just ignore what the trial court found, or what the colorado supreme court upheld when it came to the factual findings by that judge? >> katie, i'm so glad you raised this, because you and i both know in and appellate context, there's a mantra. the mantra is that the appellate courts will differ. they give great deference to factual findings by the trial court, and they will only disregard them if they are clearly erroneous or without record support. in other words, the trial court judge just made it up.

judge sarah wallace did make it up. she heard from fact witnesses, expert witnesses, as you say, she conducted a full and fair trial, at which donald trump's lawyers represented donald trump's interest. so, he certainly enjoyed a healthy dose of the process. let's hope the supreme court recognizes that they owe great deference to the trial court's determination, and of course, the trial court determines donald trump engaged in insurrection and the colorado supreme court affirmed those factual findings. i would argue that the supreme court is stuck with those factual findings. it doesn't mean they won't find other ways around it, but you know, let's follow the rules of appellate practice that way we always have. lennox got >>, 30 seconds, maybe even less. i want to look into your crystal ball and tell me what you think the supreme court is going to do with this particular case. >> you know, i think they will be hard pressed not to accept the findings of fact that

donald trump engaged in insurrection. i think there only wiggle room was to come up with some kind of a process or procedure argument that will set out for the 50 states. okay, if y'all are going to exercise for states rights, that we recognize you have, here are some processes and procedures you are going to have to follow to do it. let's hope they just show faith and allegiance to the constitution and the text of the 14th amendment. >> who would've thought, len, since 2000, we would find ourselves looking at the supreme court for what happens in the presidential elections? one person or, we always pay attention to you because justice matters. thank you for being here. and still to come this morning on the katie phang show, three years later. my conversation with a former capitol hill police officer on his road to recovery after a violent mob of insurrectionists raided the united states capital and changed his life and our nation forever. plus, we've got george conway on why he and several other conservative republican lawyers

have united to take down trump's nonsensical presidential immunity defense, and to convince the scotus in the process. we've got a lot more to come this morning, so, keep it here on msnbc. on msnbc ♪ i'll be there... ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪ i could've waited to tell my doctor my heart was racing just making spaghetti... but i didn't wait. i could've delayed telling my doctor i was short of breath just reading a book... but i didn't wait. they told their doctors. and found out they had... atrial fibrillation. a condition which makes it about five times more likely to have a stroke. if you have one or more of these symptoms irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue or lightheadedness, contact your doctor. this is no time to wait.

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hill are only two weeks away from another government shut down that line, with an overwhelmingly full plate. they are to do list includes crafting a new spending deal, addressing the border crisis and approving more funds to ukraine. now, well responsible democratic lawmakers are focusing on avoiding big partial government shutdown, house republicans, on the other hand, are gearing up next wednesday to waste more time and money by holding their first of four impeachment hearings against homeland security sector, and they contra mayorkas. now, this comes as republicans accuse him of ignoring border security measures, of course, and as usual, there is no

evidence of any wrongdoing by secretary mayorkas. joining me now is nbc news correspondent julia chester, who is live from capitol hill. julia, good morning. look, house republicans are now threatening a government shutdown unless president joe biden and the democrats agree to tougher border lost. our democratic members responding? >> good morning, katie. you are exactly right. we have that january 19th deadline looming, which was supposed to be separate from these supplemental negotiations on the border and funding for israel and ukraine, but after a trip to the border this week, house republicans are threatening to shut down the border, concisely by congressman andy biggs. he said border security's national security, shut the border down, or we'll shut the government down. so, what lawmakers were optimistic that a shutdown could be avoided about a week ago, the two is changing a bit. but not everyone is as pessimistic. you have top democratic house

appropriations congresswoman, rosa delauro, and acknowledging that she believes republicans understand the weight that a shutdown could be on the country. but as you mentioned, there is this threat, and with republicans with such a slim majority in the house, even a few can hold the house hostage when it comes to border negotiations. now, this trip to the border, led by speaker mike johnson, did give democrats some insight into house republicans thinking. the speaker has not directly said that he wants to link the spending deadline of january 19th with the border negotiations, which again, are led by the senate. but he did say that both are really important to him, and so virtual negotiations are happening between senators this weekend. so, we should note more next week, with senator kyrsten

sinema telling us they really hope to be able to have something to show for themselves and present to members next week. katie? >> my thanks to nbc news correspondent, julia jester. it's always so good to see you, and thank you for being with us. joining me now for more on this conversation is congresswoman jasmine crockett, who's also a member of the house oversight committee. congresswoman, i want to talk about the border in a second, but i really want to start with a blockbuster report that came out from the house oversight committee dems this week. that report released showing donald trump financially benefited to the tune of about $8 million in payments from foreign governments, excuse me, during his time as president. and that's only during the first two years of his term. what stood out to u.s. the most egregious? >> the entire report? or the fact that we did not have information from all of the countries in which trump had businees at, nor to pre have information on all of his

businesses. we only get information on approximately four out of his over 500 businesses. the numbers, you can see where this goes, katie. and when we wonder why we see our democracy crumbling in front of her face, this gives us a little glimpse into maybe why we are struggling. and also, make give a glimpse into why we have allies that are engaged in wars right now. we don't know what trump gave in exchange for all of the emoluments he did receive, and for all of those who love their trump, to be clear when you love trump, and you say you love the constitution, i think the two are in conflict. and the constitution specifically says if you want to accept these emoluments, you must go to congress. he never came to congress. he never disclosed anything about the trademarks, which is another thing that was really alarming. these chinese trademarks that now are coming out on his reports, as he is running to become president again.

he received a number of chinese trademarks while sitting in office, the oval office, and we know we have currently, we currently have struggles with china and we have struggles with trying to before. >> congresswoman, actually, what house republicans took over, they basically shut down any capacity for you to be able to get any more information. isn't that right? >> absolutely. james comer, got to love him, right? he decided he wanted to be an obstructionist. these are the same people who are trying, that are touting truth and transparency as what it is they are seeking, as it relates to the president. but we know other tubing is playing political games. so, most people don't understand seven years ago, this investigation began under ranking member eli shortcomings, and that was because he could see the writing on the wall. once the investigation began, trump did what he does best. he wanted to tie things up in court. things were tied up until the end of 2022, about september of

2022. so, it was only documents received between september of 22, and january of 23. so, as soon as comer got there, he said there is no need to comply with this agreed order. don't give us any more information. and honestly, not only is trump someone who has a problem as it relates to our national security, but all of his enablers that are in congress, such as james comer. >> so, let's shift gears and talk about the border, because it's relevant. we are two weeks away from the first wave of government funding, expiring on january 19th. then again, the next deadline is a couple of weeks later on february 2nd. republicans have tied any sort of deal to border security with some even threatening a government shutdown if they're demands are not met. do you have any optimism, congresswoman, of reaching a deal with republicans before the first deadline? >> you know, i never have

optimism when it comes to common sense, and this republican majority, this very slim majority, i'm glad that was pointed out, we just learned yesterday that yet another republican is planning to leave the congress. so hopefully, he will leave early. i'm ready for as many of them to go as possible, so we can get speaker hakeem jeffries, and we can maybe have a successful second half of the 118th congress. but i don't ever get optimistic, and i will say that it is absolutely asinine for someone to say, you know what? shut the border down, we're gonna shut the government down. to be clear, you are definitely going to open the border a lot if you decide you are going to shut down the government, because the government is for one that actually looks after the border. and we know, in our conversations with border patrol, that they are understaffed.

you have the conversations with people who are saying, we just end up getting sent to the border because they need extra help, we have to leave our families, things like that, so, what the speaker says they don't want the $40 million? i've heard otherwise. i don't know what the conversations were that place when the speaker seemingly went down there, so we can have a cute little photo op. >> i will say, chip roy, normally a big fan of donald trump, called out donald trump and said in november, trump didn't build a wall, mexico didn't pay for a while, and trump didn't fix the border like he promised. congresswoman jasmine crockett, as always, bringing the fire. thank you so much for being here. i appreciate it. >> have a good one. >> and the northeastern united states bracing for its first significant storm of the season, with more than 30 million people under winter alerts from north carolina all the way up to maine. officials are warning torrential rains and gusty

winds could cause black ice, vehicle pileups, and power blackouts. joining me now from scranton, pennsylvania, is nbc news correspondent george soliz. george, a lot colder than what you and i are used to, so give us the latest. this big storm system heading where you are, actually, in pennsylvania. how are people in your area getting ready for this potential storm? >> yeah, this is a good opportunity, katie, for people to pick out the shovels, test out their snow blowers. in the scranton area, we're expecting 4 to 8 inches of snow. some pockets seeing up to a foot of snow, so, obviously, a lot of people on notice. that's a little bit closer to the coastline of new york, new jersey, unfortunately, they're not going to get that white, winter wonderland they were expecting. they might see a little bit of snow, but that's going to move over into some rain. still, though, obviously, good habits to make sure that your equipment is stopped, all your supplies or stop, because there's another storm moving towards the east coast, which might bring a little bit more snow to next week. so, it's good to be prepared.

people we are speaking with, we getting a mixed bag of reactions. some people are eager to see a little bit of snowfall, since we didn't have a white christmas. others saying if this is the only snowfall we see all winter, they will be thankful for it. a lot of people not missing out on having to shovel that thick, wet, heavy snow. still, we have scrapers, we have hand warmer's, we're all bundled up. people have been out saying, taking those necessary precautions, if you're going to be out there in the extreme cold. emergency management operations, officials, state agencies, all at the ready for what the storm may bring. of course, we know it will bring some pretty torrential rain in some areas, and, also some of those slick roads and conditions on roadways. power outages also possible. so, ready and waiting for the storm to arrive here. we're expected to see some of those first flakes. again, a little bit later this evening into the early afternoon hours. and about 48 inches of snow, so, this backdrop is going to look significantly different here in a couple of hours, katie. >> george, stay warm.

open invite to you and others in the cold, come to miami. it's nice and warm and sunny. nbc news correspondent george soliz, i appreciate you as always. and we will be right back. right back. it's the only medication that can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks. treat and prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. relief is possible. talk to a doctor about nurtec odt.

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day in court next week, tuesday. defending why he should not be held criminally responsible for attempting to overturn the 2020 election, and for the insurrection that happened three years ago today. trump is banking on the long shot idea that being president at the time afforded him absolute immunity for his official actions. but 16 conservative republican lawyers are firing back, by filing a damning amicus brief rebuking trump's claims of immunity and holding him to account for his crimes. joining me now is attorney and board president for the society for the rule of law institute, george conway. george, it's always so good to see you. let's start with those oral arguments that are coming up this tuesday on january 9th.

look. this was an expedited process. the presidential immunity and double jeopardy defenses are at issue. what are your thoughts about what we're going to see on tuesday? >> well, i think you're gonna see some intense questioning from the panel. it's a very smart panel, very able panel. this is basically what many people consider to be the second most important scored in the country. and i think it's going to be, i mean, my way of judging how appellate arguments go, is who gets the most questions? who gets the most questions? there is a 60 or 70% chance that person is going to lose, or that their clients is going to lose. i'm pretty sure the questions are going to be coming fast and furious for the lawyer representing donald trump. i just don't see, for the reasons we set out in our brief, i just don't see how he could possibly prevail in this case. i wouldn't be surprised to see a quick decision, a decision i think the judges may well be already writing, because i

don't think this question is close. i think a decision within a matter of days will be in order. and the interesting question will be maybe the supreme court doesn't even have to weigh in, if the court of appeals opinion is sufficiently compelling. >> george, let's talk about the fact, though, that order was entered by that three judge panel of the d.c. circuit court of appeals, ordering both sides to be prepared to answer questions about issues that were raised in amicus briefs, including the one you and the other conservative lawyers filed. i thought it was particularly noteworthy, because amicus briefs attempted to be submitted all the time, but it's interesting to see an appellate court panel say, not only are we accepting these briefs, but we want people to be prepared to answer questions about them. >> yeah, i've seen that before. it's happened in that case in which, in cases which i've been involved and the courts actually go out and seek amicus briefs. but in this particular case, i think there is one brief, not ours, that is the focus of some

attention. and that is a brief filed by american oversight, and they argued the court of appeals doesn't even have appellate jurisdiction to hear this case. their argument is basically that you can only have appellate jurisdiction and a locker tory appellate jurisdiction, forget we were so aren't lawyers, that means jurisdiction to hear claims of ever that are committed, to correct those errors before this a final judgment of conviction. there are strict rules against interlocutory appeals in the federal accords, and the argument there is there isn't sufficiently clear statement in the statue or constitution that there is an immunity for the president that there should be no appellate jurisdiction. i don't think that's argument at the end of the day is going to prevail. i think at the end of the day, but either going to say they say there's no jurisdiction, the courts also going to say,

the alternative, there is no claim. and i think at the end of the day, the questions emerge. i mean, there really is no presidential criminal immunity of the sort donald trump is seeking here, and as a result, you can argue there also is no right to appeal. >> i think clyde is agreeing with you as you speak to us right now. george, let's shift gears and talk about a case that actually leapfrog, leapt frogged? leap frogged this particular the c 106 case for donald trump, and that is that colorado supreme court decision that is now been granted by the supreme court to be heard. you've been very vocal about that case, and about section three of the 14th amendment. i want to focus on one particular nuance for our viewers today, because george, i think this is a really important part of what's going on. i think factually, he is the person to the united states at the time, he being donald trump. factually, i think the office of the president is the office of the united states for purposes of this amendment. let's talk about whether or not

it is not meeting and enforcement mechanism. we see a lot of the language in this briefs. i want my viewers to understand better what we're talking about when we talk about whether or not section 3 of the 14th amendment requires congress to pass a law to actually say who is going to enforce that section, and how it's going to be enforced. >> yeah, section 14 of, sorry. the 14th amendment of the constitution of the united states is actually a relatively short provision. it consists of five parts. the first one is the part that says that states cannot deny people equal protection of the loss, which is referring really, to race discrimination and other forms of discrimination. section three is one that hasn't been thought about in a very, very long time, because it involves over, what we're talking about here. whether or not people can assume office if they frivolously broken their oath to the united states, or to the united states constitution, by engaging an insurrection. the argument here is that it is based upon section five of the

14th amendment, that says congress, by appropriate legislation, can enforce the other provisions of section 14. and that's one of the bases that has been used for the civil rights act of 1964, and all the other civil rights acts that were passed during reconstruction of virtually any civil rights act against a racial or other forms of discrimination. congress has invoked section five of the 14th amendment. what trump and his allies are arguing here is that, for section three, you must have, must-have, congressional authorization, congressional enforcement of legislation, and that is in order to enforce section three. but the argument is bogus, because section 3 doesn't say that. section one doesn't say that. and if it were true that section five required a statute to make section three enforceable, the same would be true of section one, because they're completely parallel

provisions, and nothing in section one, either, that's us that. which would mean if congress, tomorrow, for whatever reason, repealed all the civil rights laws ever enacted, you could engage in racial discrimination tomorrow. states could do. that and that's just not true. that's one of many reasons why this argument does not fly, and another reason is that the supreme court has made clear that provisions of section, of the 14th amendment, are self executing, and they don't need congressional enactments. also, one more reason is that section three says that congress can relieve a person of the disability of having engaged in insurrection and being disqualified from office by a two thirds vote. well, if congress, if the framers of the 14th amendment provided that, that that means, that certainly means somebody else could be in posting this ability, not congress. >> yet, george, very quickly, i just want to make sure that this is a way i understand it, you've got a supreme court that

currently is comprised of justices that, a majority of whom are strict constructionists, right? they are textualists. they're going to read the language of these amendments in the united states constitution, as they should be strictly construed. so, if what you're saying is the take case when it comes to section three, one and five, of the 14th amendment, we should see a supreme court ruling or decision attest donald trump is disqualified from the ballot, right? >> to channel my inner justice cullowhee, are not strict constructionist. were loose constructionists. we read the text of the statues, we read the text of the constitution, and we try to interpret the boards as they were understood when those words were written. and that's the problem with donald trump has here, is that the words are very simple and very clear. and in fact, they are clear than other provisions of the 14th amendment. i mean, words equal protection of the loss. that is a come pacious,

capacious phrase. and it's very difficult, just reading, that to interpret it. section three is rather narrow. it's not hard to know what an insurrection is. it's not hard to find an insurrection, and that many people engaged in insurrection. so, it's really not a difficult, difficult provision to understand or in force. >> george conway, next time the katie phang show, being a pet friendly show, demands the release of clyde and bonnie, if bonnie is there, so that's clyde -- >> they are there. they are about 30 feet away, locked up. >> well, next time, let them roam free, george conway. george conway, thank you for meeting me, my friend. no, it's. fine thanks for being here. still to come, defending democracy. today marks three years since a mob of violent insurrectionists attacked our nation's capital. my next guest, a former capitol hill police officer, on whether we're doing enough to safeguard our nation from future threats from within. you're watching the katie phang

show, only on msnbc. ly on msnbc.

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the grounds of one of the most sacred institutions in our nation, on the largest domestic threats to democracy left a dark stain on our country that will last forever. a violent mob of nearly 10,000 people attacked the u.s. capitol in washington, d.c., responding to a call to arms by their leader, then that quadruple indicted, twice impeached, one term ex president, peddling the big lie. for several hours, trump's maga supporters viciously clashed with capitol police officers, who were trying to disrupt the building and the people inside. at least 2000 writers -- the capital. trump's indicted after his allies claimed without any evidence or proof that the election was stolen. trump also refused, for hours, to call off the

incredibly, and inexplicably, and despite years of the truth being shared far and wide, nearly three in ten republican voters still believe the fbi instigated the attack on the capital. trump even calling january six rioters, who are now serving jail time, quote, hostages. meanwhile, president joe biden highlighted the capitol officers who fought valiantly on the frontline that day to save our democracy. >> there was a lot of love on january the six. but rest affiliation, including law enforcement, saw a lot of hate and violence. on capitol police officer called it a medieval battle. that same officer called, vile, racist names. he said he was more afraid of the capital of the united states of america and the

chambers then when he was fighting as a soldier in the war in iraq. >> officers who variety attacked other harrowing stories as they continue to heal to the state. my next guest is one of many. joining me now, i have the honor of having winston pasha, former u.s. capitol police officer and an artist. winston, i want to thank you for joining us this morning. i also want to thank you first, and foremost, for your service. i know you are retired. but i know part of the reason why you're as hired as because of january six. it is the third anniversary today as you join us. what are your thoughts this morning? >> yes, katie. thank you for having me, and great to see you. it's been a difficult three years, and i am in a lot of ways, disbelieve that it's been three years because a feels like just yesterday, i was on the west front of the capital with my riot squad, defending the building and our congress from this violent mob as they began to swarm and attack us as

they entered into the building. >> you know, winston, one of the things you have is an incredible talent, and you made self portraits that were, on inauguration day, in 2021. only two weeks later, you were attacked defending the capitol on january six. what do the photos of yourself mean to you now? >> my art has always been there for me, it's been a way that i've always been able to express myself creatively, using a different voice than i have instead of realizing my emotion. so, you know, to paint myself standing on the west front, two weeks after having been attacked on january six, i think a lot of my work inspired by my service to the department and that they in particular, our very heavy and half that's sort of tragic and darkness as a theme. because that's what the reality

of january six was. but i hope my work, particularly that self portraits in my ceremonial uniform on inauguration day, it does show some hope and some positivity for the future. >> winston, i mentioned in the lead up to your interview about how three in ten republican voters think the fbi instigated january six. what does that make you think or feel, considering the fact that you are one of several hundred law enforcement officers on that day that we're battling it out in ways that would worsen actually being at war? >> it is really upsetting and i don't even know how that's happened. for me, it's been important to continue to speak out about the facts of that day, which is why i testified in the colorado lawsuit you were just discussing. and why i'm talking to you here today.

it's not easy for me to talk about this, because it was such a difficult and traumatic experience for me, fighting for my life on the steps of the capital. but it's important, because every american needs to know that january six was not some conspiracy, and it was not some hugs and kissing. not some peaceful tourist visit, like the former president and some current members of congress continue saying a second year to whitewash and minimize the violent and brutal attack on our capitol and on our democracy. >> talk about how important your art has been to help you heal. we often shy away from what we think is a stigmatized conversation about mental health, especially when it comes to people like you who served in law enforcement and had to go through the trauma of january six. >> [muted] you talk about it

and share in my art with other officers out there who may be struggling, or anybody out there who is gone through a traumatic experience, and is looking for that way too understand that experience, work through it, and express themselves to ultimately move on from it. so, i'm very fortunate that i've received a lot of positive feedback about my artwork. of course, i've received negative feedback about it, to, threats of violence from the maga trump supporters, and all sorts of neck steve things. ultimately, i'm not deterred by that. i have used january six as inspiration for my artwork, and they may continue to do so until i feel that we have received justice for that day, and that i've said and shared myself creatively. as much as i sort of feel that need to heal in that way. >> winston pingeon, i want to

thank you again for your service. i want to thank you for your courage and willingness to continue to speak out. as you said, it's not easy, but these conversations need to be had, because people always need to know the truth about what happened on january six. thank you for being here. >> thank you, katie. >> and still ahead, disturbing documents, new details revealed in the latest jeffrey epstein records released, including how epstein learned under age girls into his home. and attorney for several of epstein's victims joins us next. next and a gangster's out of style. i got back to my roots. we come from a long line of cowboys. my grandfather, my great-grandfather, my aunt even rode horses. when i see all of us out here on this ranch i see how far our legacy can go. now on sale at ancestry. we're travelling all across america, talking to people about their hearts. wh-who wants to talk about their heart!

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first look at nearly 200 documents and thousands of pages related to convicted sex offender jeffrey epstein. since wednesday, a federal judge has released four batches of documents featuring interviews with women who claimed epstein sexually abused them when they were under age and force them to have sex with his high-profile friends. the documents are a part of a civil defamation lawsuit that was settled in 2015 against longtime epstein confidant, ghislaine maxwell. by one of his victims. joining me now is spencer covid, chief legal officer at gold law and anthony for several of the epstein victims. spencer, thank you so much for joining us today. i wanted to actually point out to our viewers that you represented the very first victim of jeffrey epstein who came forward years ago. to the police, in palm beach, to get the investigation started.

then, subsequently, you've represented several other epstein victims. what have you heard from your clients about this release of these documents? >> thank you for having me, katie. undoubtedly, this is an amazing case that has lasted over 17 years now. when that first victim walked into my office about 17 years ago, she told an incredible story about a wealthy man who was giving money to young girls for sexual explicit massages. that has now turned into an international sexual pyramid scheme. my clients are extremely happy that this information is now finally coming out, because it justifies what they have been saying for the last 17 years about not just jeffrey epstein, but ghislaine maxwell as well as many other very wealthy, powerful individuals in this country. >> spencer, let's talk about recourse statue of limitations as a expired, i believe, for

claims could be brought. so, what was the purpose behind making sure that these documents, these previously redacted documents, excuse me, were unsealed unredacted. >> the federal judge in new york found the information contained in these documents, frankly, was already out in the general public. information about key individuals. people, you know, such as prince andrew and other major politicians who were identified in these documents, it was already discussed in the general public. so, this information was out there already. it shouldn't be kept secret. the world should really get a better understanding of the background, the information that is contained within them, and the details, especially, about what actually happens, and what people testified to under oath about what occurred in epstein's circle of power. >> talk about how daunting this journey has been for not only you as counsel for the victims of jeffrey epstein, but for

your clients themselves to be able to be facing the amount of money, wealth, and power and influence that was on the other side of this legal battle. >> well, thank you. and you know, that usually gets forgotten in this story. people are so quick to want to talk about the famous people that might be disclosed or in the list, but the reality is, you're talking about a bunch of young girls at the time. these were under age, 14, 15, 16-year-old girls, and over the years, they have been brutally traumatized. not just by epstein, but by epstein's investigators, by his lawyers, in depositions, by the discovery process, in general, and now, some of these women are in their twenties and 30s and having to still live this story, about an awful period of their life. having said that, though, there is a certain amount of satisfaction, seeing this now has come to some type of openness, where the public and the world can actually see

these people for who they are. >> spencer kuvin, as a fellow tribal lawyer, i want to thank you for your dog's determination to represent these young women, as they did battle to make sure that transparency was met and the world knew what happened with jeffrey epstein. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> and before we go, a special programming note. next saturday, january 13th, the katie phang show will air at a new time slot, beginning at noon eastern. so remember to tune in next saturday at noon eastern to catch the katie phang show, rit here on msnbc. and thanks to all of you for joining me this morning. i'll be back here tomorrow, the, last sunday morning at eight again. or i'm gonna welcome former republican congressman, denver riggleman, who will weigh in on the widening conflict in the middle east. remember, you can always follow us at katie phang show on instagram, tiktok, and ex. stay tuned, the saturday show with my friend, jonathan capehart, he's back, too. and he's coming up next. ing up next. e, nurtec odt may help.

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you can save. this was the scene three years ago today when a mob, a violent mob, instigated by the president who lost the 2020 election, stormed the steps of the capital and desecrated its hallowed halls.