good morning.

it is saturday, january the 6th. i'm ali velshi. it's been three years since a mob attacked the united states capitol at the port of donald trump's desperate him to cling to power after losing the 2020 presidential election. that attack lasted only a few hours, but the long shadow of that fire insurrection continues to loom large over american democracy. especially now, as the 2024 race heats up. but both the twice impeached, multiply indicted former president, and the current, duly elected president, understand this. that's why january six is a central component of each other presidential campaigns, albeit in vastly different ways. president biden gave the first major speech of his reelection bid yesterday, and he used to as an opportunity to reflect on how the insurrection exposed trump's complete disregard for america's constitutional and democratic values, and emphasized that the former president remains a danger to democracy. >> it's the first national elections since january six

insurrection placed a dagger at the throat of american democracy. since that moment. we all know who donald trump is. the question we have to answer is, who are we? that's what's at stake. [applause] who are we? but you're ahead, as you talk to your family and friends, cast your ballots, the power is in your hands. after all we've been through on our history, from independents to civil war to two world war was to a pandemic to insurrection, i refused to believe, that in 2024, we americans will choose to walk away from what made us the greatest nation in the history of the world. >> in contrast, donald trump has gone to great lengths to try to rewrite the history of the insurrection. he said that january six was quote, a pew to full day. he calls the people who were in charged or convicted for storming the capitol martyrs and hostages. trump enters a 2024 race both at the undisputed front runner for the republican nomination

and as a criminal defendant facing a total of 91 charges in four different jurisdictions, including a number of charges related to his role on january the six. with recent polling coming a close race between trump and biden, there's a very real possibility that an insurrectionist could return to the white house, and use the powers of the presidency to exact retribution against his political enemies as, trump is openly and repeatedly vowed to do. it's a predicament that's given rise to a number of constitutional questions that are just a system has never had to consider, because an insurrectionist has never before run for president, now has a former president ever been charged with a crime. many of those questions remain unresolved, and they could fundamentally alter the dynamics of this year's elections, with the first in the nation iowa caucuses just nine days away. that tension was on full display last night, when the supreme court of the united states agreed to consider whether trump is ineligible for

colorado's republican primary ballot. last month, colorado state supreme court ruled that the former president should be barred from the ballot, because of his actions, leading up to and including on the day of the insurrection. the justices are scheduled to hear oral arguments in that case on february the 8th, which is lightening speed by supreme court standards. trump's eligibility to run for office has been challenged in 34 states. it's produced mixed results so far. a number of lawsuits have been dismissed. others have been pending in the court. the supreme court is not only going to decide if trump may appear on colorado's primary ballot, but it may determine his eligibility to run in the entire general election. maine is the only other state so far to rule that trump is constitutionally disqualified from appearing on the ballot. but due to the unprecedented nature of this entire situation, officials in both colorado and maine are operating a great restraint, and put their decisions on hold to allow higher courts to weigh in on

the matter. in her decision, maine's top election official, secretary of state shenna bellows, concluded that, quote mr. trump was aware of the likelihood for violence and at least an issue we supported its use, given peoples encouraged it with incendiary rhetoric and took no timely action to stop it. the weight of the evidence makes clear that mr. trump was aware of the tinder laid by his multi month effort to delegitimized a democratic election, and then chose to light a match. maine's secretary of state, shenna bellows, joins me now. secretary bellows, thank you for being with us this morning. we appreciate your time. >> good morning, ali. thank you for having me. >> i want to begin with your decision. the quote i just read about the conclusion you drew that donald trump engaged in insurrection. it's not dissimilar to what the colorado supreme court, and a very lengthy decision underscored. they looked at all the ways you could interpret rebellion an insurrection and determined

trump had engaged in one. you held a hearing before coming to the decision that you made. i want to understand, for our viewers, the process you used to come to the decision, to remove donald trump from the ballot, at least in, you know, if the supreme court supports that decision. >> thank you so much. it's important to understand the process, because in this country, what makes us great as we follow that rule of law. and in maine, because of course, under article one of the constitution, the constitution delegates to the states to the authority to administer the elections, and maine, once the secretary of state qualifies a candidate for the ballot, any registered maine voters may, within a week, file a challenge to the qualifications of a candidate. that is predicated on a main law that requires and delegates the authority to the secretary to ensure that any candidate seeking access to the primary

ballot meets the qualifications of the office they seek. once registered maine voters file a challenge, in this case, there were five voters who did so, i am required, under the law, to hold an administrative hearing within five days. then, within a week, of the hearing proceedings, to issue a decision. and that initiates the process, whereby than any of the parties, the challenger, the candidate, can appeal to superior court, and the maine supreme court, and the u.s. supreme court. just one more thing. in that hearing, both parties are entitled, and in fact were, to be represented by counsel. they had attorneys. they could present evidence, witnesses, engage in cross-examination and legal argument. that's our process here in maine. >> tell me one of the things that nbc talk to you about in the past after this discussion about the section three of the

14th amendment started to flow, was all of you secretaries of state who run elections across the country were conscious of the fact that any decision you take will be challenged in other courts. in your state supreme courts, and the supreme court of the united states. how did that influence your decision making, understanding this was not a routine decision for you, this is possibly one of the most consequential decisions you and other secretaries of state will ever make in the history of this country? >> this is the process. this is the rule of law, under the oath that i swore to uphold the constitution. so, on the last patient decision, i voluntarily suspended the fact of my decision, pending appeal to the superior court. and indeed, welcoming u.s. supreme court engaging, because our job as election officials isn't to make that loss. our job is to follow the law. no matter where the law takes us, and to do us the courts

direct. that is what we will do under the law and the constitution, which is the only consideration we could have. >> and i notice you said this a few times. that's where you have decided what you're going to be driven by. there are differing opinions in the united states, even in your own state, it's elicited a mix of reactions, even among the democratic representatives. congressman gerry goldman said, i have voted to impeach donald trump for his role in the january six insurrection. i do not believe he should be reelected as president of the united states. however, we are in an age of loss, therefore, until he's actually found guilty of the crime of insurrection, he should be allowed on the ballot. now, congressman chile pedigree also raised that quote, the text of the 14th amendment is clear. no person who engaged in an insurrection against the government can ever again serve in election office. our constitution is the very bedrock of america and our laws and it appears trump's actions

are prohibited by the constitution. the crux of the debate, i want to ask you about, is two parts. one is do you think that donald trump has sufficiently been litigated, that he was involved in an insurrection? and number two, do you believe this was ultimately a political decision, or a legal decision? >> my decision is a legal decision under the constitution. that i swore to uphold. and i think that is really important. and you know, in my decision, it's 34 pages, people can read on the secretary of state's website, and make it very clear that the decision would have been clearer, should there have been a conviction or, guilty or not guilty verdict in a criminal court of law. but that's not what section three of the 14th amendment says. it's as engaged in an insurrection. and the events of january six were tragic, unprecedented, they were an attack not only on the capital, but also on members of congress, on the former vice president, and

resulted in seven deaths. but it was also an attack on the peaceful transfer of power, and on the rule of law. and the weight of that evidence demonstrated that mr. trump, these events happened at the behest of the outgoing president. and with the knowledge in support of the outgoing president. and the u.s. constitution does not tolerate an assault on the peaceful transfer of power. and furthermore, my job as secretary of state of maine was delegated to me by the maine legislature, to ensure all of the qualifications. so, i cannot place any -- an 18 year old on the ballot, a non citizen running for president on the ballot, or someone who has violated the 22nd amendment. i couldn't place barack obama or george w. bush on the ballot. i must ensure all candidates meet the qualifications of the

ballot, and the qualifications of the constitution are not a menu. they are the requirements under our founding document. >> they are not a menu. important note that it is a disqualification, it's not a penalty. i'm a canadian who has become an american citizen, so you couldn't put me on the ballot. that wouldn't mean, i don't meet the qualifications. >> i cannot. with all due respect, ali, i cannot place you on the main ballot. >> it's all good. shanna bellows is the secretary of state for maine. thank you for being with us this morning. >> thank you so much. >> in our next hour, i'm gonna talk to colorado secretary of state, janet griswold, on the heels of the supreme court's decision to hear arguments over whether donald trump is ineligible to be colorado's republican primary candidate. still ahead, the images of the january 6th riot or some of the most recognizable in our nation's history, sadly. we've all seen the deeply unsettling videos of trump supporters attacking the capitol. three years later, believe it or not, we're still getting new

perspectives. this dramatic new video, released as trial evidence, shows what it was like from a rioters vantage point. you're looking at the republican representative, troy nehls. you will see him in a second. i'm going to wait until we see him. okay, we don't really see him. you could see him in a second. he's trying to reason with a dangerous mob through the broken window of the main house chamber door, as a police officer standby with his guns drawn. dr awn. i'm gonna -- >> who is this! >> of -- >> talk a little louder. >> that's because -- have seen corruption just like we have [inaudible] ! i'm saying that i congresspeople don't even stand up for it! [inaudible] [bleep] [bleep] >> what? >> i need backup. >> freedom is at hand! >> go find another [inaudible] >> don't you see we're fighting for you? >> put the guns down. you're not going to do anything.

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your glasses on for this, because i'm gonna show you some photographs, but they're going to be so small that you're going to want to look at them. a new lawsuit in pennsylvania is a need to ban the republican congressman scott perry from appearing on the states primary ballot, using the same insurrection clause of the 14th amendment, that's been used against the former president, donald trump. the seven-page lawsuit asks the pennsylvania court to declare that perry is ineligible to run for office, because of his efforts to keep donald trump in power. the filing states, quote, the effort to utilize the fake elector certificates to overturn the certification process and invalidate a constitutional process to was an effort to subvert the constitution for insurrection purposes. and whether one participated directly in the insurrection's efforts, or if one supports the insurrections efforts, the 14th

amendment section three disqualification provision applies. in this case, it applies to scott perry, end quote. now, here's a refresher on how congressman scott perry of pennsylvania got wrapped up in all of this. it was revealed during the january six house committee hearings that perry tried to use the department of justice to help trump install a potential acting attorney general who would be more receptive to trump's false election fraud claims in order to stall the certification of the election. and while donald trump may be the main character of the story of january six, congressman's got perry may is a reminder that trump did not work alone in his attempts to topple democracy. he had an army of supporters physically tearing apart our nation's capital, but inside the capitol and after the smoke cleared, a group of republicans, this is where your glasses come in, all but justify the actions of the rioters and played their own role in blocking the peaceful transfer of power. and here they are. these are the 147 republicans

in the house and the senate who voted to overturn donald trump's election loss. at eight pm on january the six, after the mob had been cleared, congress reconvened to officially certify the results of the election. the very process, the insurrections is trying to stop. and these 147 republicans voted against the certification. because of the baseless voter fraud claims, spread by donald trump and his minions, including scott perry. almost every single one of her 127 people are still serving in congress. and no matter what happens in the 24 presidential election, just remember, these lawmakers who try to overturn democracy will still be running our government. one of the lawmakers who have worked to protect democracy, since january six, is the representative stacey plaskett. the day after the insurrection, she released a statement saying quote, in this country, government the people and

formed in an objection to territory, there is no place for the autocratic tendencies we have witnessed. and quote. three years later, that statement is true or than ever. we'll speak with representative stacey plaskett, after the break.

amid the violence amid the violence and chaos that -- and washington d.c. he did the call of duty to protect united states capitol and the lawmakers inside from a dangerous pro trump mob. one of the individuals who risked his life and rose to the occasion that day is eugene goodman. the 15-year veteran of the capitol police force and iraq war veteran arrived at capitol hill at 5:00 in the morning on january the six. you had been assigned to the capital rotunda to guard the path that senators and members of the house would follow as they moved through the building to certify the results of the 2020 election.

by the time he got to work, pro trump protesters were already en masse near the capital, in anticipation of what would become an infamous speech by donald trump at the ellipse. later, things took a turn. violence began to unfold, and goodman took after one of the first arrests of the day to a police transport vehicle. after that, he returned to the west side of the capitol, where he called what he called a medieval battle was taking place between protesters and an overwhelmed police force. eugene goodman didn't hesitate. he joined his comrades. goodman was then hit in the face with bear spray, and inadvertently got caught in a cloud of tear gas, deployed by law enforcement, causing him to run inside the capitol to throw up. when he returned outside, he saw a crowd of what looked like thousands climbing the scaffolding and scaling the capital exterior. then, he overheard that the senate side of the head had been breached. goodman ran back inside to protect who he could. one of the people he protected, you could see the video here

will, senator mitt romney. as you can see here, goodman, in this now famous video, told romney to run the other way. just as the mob broke through. rioters kept coming. now, the mob was inside the building. goodman recalled and later testimony that rioters antagonized him. here he is, antagonized him. questions like, where the f art that members at? before a man jabbed him with a confederate flag. at this point, goodman was on his own. said the capital police radio system was working poorly. he had a riot mob of rioters demanded he moved, because they wanted to pay a visit to the senate. in this video, shall be eager bhavik of the huffington post, he tries to get the mob undeterred, they foursome up the stairs. at the same time, goodman is actively luring them away from the senate chamber. he knows that's where they want to go, and he knows there are lawmakers in their. as the mob reaches the next floor, more capital police officers are there, waiting for them to help round them up.

eugene goodman stayed at the capitol past midnight that day, sweeping the building for rioters who were still hiding. he helped clean it up. for his heroics, he earned a congressional gold medal, on january six of last year. president biden presented officer goodman with the nation second highest civilian honor. for mary americans, the attack on the capitol on january 6th was first, unthinkable. then, it became a shocking spectacle. and now, overblown, according to those who helped perpetuate it. but for people like eugene goodman, it was a real, visceral threat of lasting consequences. a black police officer who served his country over thieves, who worked at the very center of american government, had to fight off a mob stop by hatred intent on spurring that democratic will of the american people, being poked with a confederate flag. battles over democracy can seem abstract and philosophical, and even detached from the real world. but the truth is that when people attacked democracy,

someone has to defend it. and those very real people on the frontlines risk everything. their safety, and their well-being, and their lives, and their privacy. because it is worth just that much. joining me that was another person who was at the capitol on january six and fought to protect our democracy and nation from that very real threat. congresswoman stacey plaskett of the u.s. virgin islands, a member of the house judiciary committee. she served on the house select committee on the weaponization of the federal government. she also served as a house manager, helped prosecute the case against donald trump in his second impeachment trial. representative plaskett, it's good to see you again. you and i have talked many, many times, back and forth these days, but one of them, one of the rules you play it as an impeachment manager was to walk us through what we just told our viewers. walk us through exactly what happened that day, from every angle. you've seen every shot of this. you've seen every video camera. and eugene goodman tells a lot

of the story here. there was a mob that was destined to attack the capital, and invoke violence on people. this man fought it in the moment. and i just mean symbolically, it is important for us to remember on this third anniversary, there are lots of people in america in different roles who did what this man did. but he put his life on the line. >> yes. thank you so much, and happy new year to you and to all your viewers. it is, you know, a very moving day, january six. very close college classmate sent a picture of me at nine years ago, on january six, i was sworn into congress. thanking congress was going to be a place where individuals from both sides of the aisle to work together, may not always agree philosophically on issues, but working towards the betterment of the people of the united states, for the unit that instance and, i stand as a beacon for the people of the world. and how far have we fallen in three years? or even before that, with the

culmination of hatred and division in the election, of donald trump? and then, him calling those individuals through their frustrations and bigotry, their racism, their hatred, to descend on the capitol and try to overthrow our democracy. good once it and as a symbol of those who put their lives on the line. i also, ali, think about the other video that i showed during that time of the staffers, who were huddled. young people, huddled into a room as people were banging on the door, trying to get in. these are 20 year olds, 30-year-olds, who give up lucrative jobs in other places. government doesn't pay that much. and do what they can, because they believe in this country. and to have their lives threatened or other members, i think about my colleagues who are up in the gallery. some of them still have real mental issues, emotional issues, from that day. as they were left up there,

because there was no easy access. no secret access to get them out of their. they had to wait and wait through people that the capitol police were holding down at gunpoint, so that they could get through and get to safety. those are the things that happened on january six. and what is absolutely infuriating, ali, is those individuals who say it was not what it was, was the attempted overthrow of this country. the attempted throwing off of all of our rules and our norms where are here to protect us. how many people from the civil rights movement followed the law and fought peacefully through the courts, through other systems, through demonstrations for what they want? and for those individuals to think they can do whatever they want, because they don't like the outcome of decisions, is absolutely untenable in this republic that we live in. >> you know, one of the points you've made, as somebody who we relied upon to see all these

videos and talk to these witnesses, and as we talked about the january six committee. one of the points you've made is that we don't need more video. we don't report witnesses. we all have two lives. we have seen everything we need to see, you said we need more senators with spines, not more witnesses. and that still stands. we need more elected politicians who will take the right decisions. not, we have all the evidence in the world. if 25% of americans still don't believe what happened on january six, or don't believe donald trump was, or whatever the numbers are, we can't help them. what we can do is have our decision makers like you and your colleagues, the elected decision-makers in this country, make the right decisions. >> yes. i mean, during the trial, i was the only person in the impeachment team and one of the few democrats who actually served in a republican administration. who wasn't one point a regular republican because before i

turn to looked around and saw the republican party had left me, and i was no longer a member of the party in terms of where that going to the right. and i remember, you, know it's a strange feeling, ali, if you've been a courtroom lawyer, to actually talk to witnesses, to talk to the jurors, while you are presenting your case. but that's what we did. electrical coming over to republican senators, some of whom i actually worked for, on the house side as a staffer. in many years before, and saying, what do you think? and they're like, you've made your case. and saying, so, you're going to go with us? and they're like no, i can't do that. i can't do that. so, to think ali, we would not be where we are today if they had done that. my plead to them was, vote to convict him. we need two thirds to convict him, but we only need a majority after that conviction to disqualify him from ever being able to run again. and we could do that. we will do that, if you give us the votes to convict.

but they were unwilling and afraid of the base, afraid of donald trump, to do that. and we are where we are now. >> and they continue to be. congressman, you have never been, congresswoman, thank you for the work that you have done. thanks, always, for being a friend of our show. congressman stacey plaskett. >> can i say to all virgin islands right now, ali, today we are celebrating houchin christian festival, and you are missing out of my office right now, the parade is coming down the road. a dress, everything, and i am about to hit the road right now and have fun. >> i love. that >> despite all of the bad things that are going on, there's still good in our community. >> yes. we have to celebrate. i told you one day, you and i will do an interview in the u.s. virgin islands. >> come on down! >> and congratulations, by the way, on your ninth anniversary as a member of congress. representative stacey plaskett of the united states virgin islands. all right, still ahead, we repeatedly said that democracy is on the line in this upcoming election. many parts of our democracy have already been eroded.

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continue our coverage of the third january 6th insurrection in just a moment. first, i want to tell you some exciting news, starting next week, there will be a new weekend lineup here on msnbc. starting next saturday, you can kick off your weekend with a brand new warning show. symone sanders-townsend, michael steele, and alicia menendez are teaming up to bring you the weekend, which premiers next saturday at 8 am, eastern. you can continue to get healthy at our normal time slot, 10 am to noon eastern, after, that the katie phang show moves to a new time slot at noon eastern on saturday's, followed by alex with and then the best of the beat, with already wilbur, politics nation with reverend al interrupted, that, jonathan capehart and the evening rounds out with a man. who is like, prince, he just

has one name. on sundays, it's different. inside with jen psaki joins the lineup right after velshi at noon, again, the new lineup gets started next saturday. you're watching velshi right now, always on 10 am to noon eastern on saturday and sunday. we'll be right back. 'll be right back.

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a constant refrain has been that democracy is on the line in the next election. the truth is democracy has already been suffered blows in recent years, with the gradual erosion of democratic norms that's been normalized by the far right. the mac assad is striking in our democratic foundations from all angles. local and federal, from judicial overreach and constant book bans, to attacks on civil liberties, diversity programs, and abortion rights. according to the good blocker institute, abortion is not what actually banned in 14 states, while the future of abortion remains uncertain in a handful of others. access to abortion clinics is cut off across much of the south and the midwest. meanwhile, book bans are escalating in school to public libraries throughout the united states, resulting in a 20% increase in book challenges in 2023, compared to the previous year, according to the american library association. from 2021 through august of 2023, conservatives lodged and

all out war on critical race theory, crtc, passing nearly 750 anti crt measures, according to ucla school of law. attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion, the, i continue to have their impact on higher education and other institutions across the country. anti dei and issued's have passed in at least six states, with faculty reporting a chilling effect on teaching and recruitment. these represent just a few assault on our liberal institutions and fundamental rights. all of these efforts reflect the republican party that has learned to effectively harness its face to push for these draconian measures. in contrast, we democratic party has struggled to harness its own constituency and develop a coherent strategy to confront these challenges. and concerns persist that democrats are not effectively countering these assault on democracy. despite donald trump facing 91

criminal counts across four indictments, biden could very well lose to trump. biden this seeing considerable decline in support among young and minority voters, most national polling shows biden in a dead heat with trump. these numbers surface a clear indication that democrats do need to step up their efforts, or risk handing the presidency to donald trump, who has vowed to unleash revenge and retribution. his words. if reelected. all of this comes at a time when in 2024 stands up to be the biggest global election year in history. more than 60 countries, roughly four billion people, half the world's population, heading to the polls for national elections this year. experts warn there is a real risk that many of those elections will choose leadership's with anti democratic leanings. despite biden's constant refrain that democracy is winning worldwide, he is wrong. that's categorically untrue.

authoritarianism is ascendant globally, and some of the world's top democracies are now also at risk of being toppled, or turned into autocracies. a second trump presidency could be the catalyst that ushers most of the world into an era of autocracy. after a quick break, i will die fan to this with two of the foremost thinkers on democracy, joe and freeman and stephen lipinski. couldn't go anywhere. o anywhere sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day.

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esteemed a store into could speak to this historic moment of on certainty for american democracy. two and three minutes a professor of american history and american studies at yale university. just got out of the field of blood, violence and congress on the road to the civil war. also with us is steven lipinski, professor emeritus at harvard university and director of the center for latin american studies at harvard. he's the co-author of the book, tyranny of the minority, why american democracy reached the breaking point. welcome to both of you. joe, and you and i were on tv three years ago when this all happened. talking about how it unfolded. i had a really interesting conversation with your colleague tim, snyder, last night. in which he was drawing a parallel to germany in the 1930s, and we were talking about how big and important country germany was, and tim made the point. he said the 20th century would have been germany's century, but for the fact that they did bad things and the railed their entire future.

and the entire future to be america's entry, but we may be real that to. and in doing so, we make the real that for the whole world. >> it's totally possible. i, mean it's one of the things that we should be thinking about, regarding january six, and that is we don't know what comes next and, that is particularly true in an election year. we don't know what's coming down the pipe. we don't know how democracy will fare, and i know it's easy for people to point to that statement and say it's hyperbole, you're exaggerating. but as you pointed out just before the break, it's not exaggerating. it's very true. so, what happens this year could have a major impact on that united states, and it debunked, so have a major impact on the world and the status, i suppose, the rival of democracy around the world. >> one of the things we do in this business, is perhaps not the best thing. we focus on the leaders in the politicians and we get a lot of airtime.

but you wrote in the new york times, quote, the greatest start toemoccy comes not from demagogues like mr. trump or even from extremist followers like those who stormed the capitol on january six, but rather, from the ordinary politicians, many of them inside the capitol that day, who protect and enable him. earlier in the show, i put up a picture of the 147 members of congress in the senate, who voted not to certify the election on that day. all, i, think remaining congress. and they're still doing the same stuff. they didn't come around. they didn't say well, that's really bad. more on the brink of losing democracy, let's change our approach. >> look, there are three cardinal rules of democracy. three really basic rules that any political party or politician has to follow, if you want to keep a democracy. one is you've got to accept the results of elections or to lose, to, you have to unambiguously and always renounce political violence. and three, you've got to break

ties, cut off ties completely, with openly anti-democratic forces. and unfortunately, the republican party really, top to bottom, has failed to do those three things since 2020. since the 2020 election. now, even more so than 2020, virtually every major republican who is still in politics is going to back a candidate who openly tried to overturn an election. you cannot preserve democracy if one of two major parties doesn't play by democratic rules. >> joanne, after mitt romney lost the election to barack obama, michael steele was, i think, the head of the republican party at the time. they had a postmortem, and they said, you know what? if we could on the fringes alienate fewer people and fewer groups in america, we could actually win this national election. is it weird to you that the republican party of today's

practicing none of those things? they have gone in a completely different direction. they've got themselves an audience, a captive audience. they've got loyalists. but they are giving up the idea of broad swath of american public, which democrats are trying to do. they've just decided, this actually works for us. leaning into people with remarkably deep grievance is very successful. >> well, the partly responding to demographics. right? the fact of the matter is that that largely democratic and small d democratic perspective is the majority. so, if you know the numbers are working against you, democracy is not going to be your friend. right? the majority is not your friend, and free and fair elections, in which the majority wins, that's not gonna be your friend, either. so, what we're seeing now is partially a response to demographics. i also want to add something to those wonderful, that list that we just heard of things that are essential for a democracy.

i'm going to add a fourth one, or a fifth one, i can't remember how many he offered. but an important one, and that is that democracy is fragile and to have a democracy, it has to be upheld. it has to be defended. people have to be aware of the fact that it isn't inevitable, and active and engaged citizenry is essential. >> and stephen, one of the ways i like to describe it is that it's not the most fragile thing in the world, but it's like a cactus, right? you can't give it no attention. it needs a little something, and we could do that. it is actually within the realm of possibility, what the last federal election, last presidential election, stephen was relatively close, former people didn't vote that voted for donald trump, either donald trump or joe biden. it's well within our realm to recapture democracy properly in america. >> sure, and the signs were doing it. young people have been voting that still not enough, but

voting at a much higher rate in the last few elections. i think if we survive this difficult period, we will look back and we'll think younger generations, millennials and gen z, for saving a democracy that had been almost nothing for them. so, we owe them a lot. we owe them a lot for their political voice. what >> do you think? that you're around, both of you are, but you're on campuses. you're around young people. that is identified as one of the issues for democrats. young people who are either disenchanted with or disillusioned by politics or by biden or the democrats, who are gonna sit on their hands. this is a bad election for people to sit on their hands, even if they think the biden administration hasn't done everything they would like them to do on whatever their topic is that is of most importance. >> what i sense among my students is two sided. so on the one hand, yes. i can see that they're disillusioned. i can see they're frustrated. i can see that they're very

aware of what's happening around them. but i can also see that they are energized, and they're hopeful. because i think they truly believe, as they should and we all should, that if you give your energy to this moment, if you work in this moment, just as you just said, and i'm gonna take away democracy as a cactus with me. i'll leave it, because i really like that member metaphor. but if you give yourself to this moment, and if you work in this moment, we surely can save democracy. we just have to act and we have to be willing to believe that's despite the fact that we're in a really sort of tense, fraught moment, we can come out of this with an engaged citizenry, and my students are engaged. >> and i guess, to that point, stephen, there are people who say why y'all carry on like your hair is on fire. you're gonna be fine. how do you expect reasonably, using his historical precedent or whatever you use, that it's not if you don't do something

about. it could actually go pretty badly. it could end up fine. we could be talking here in november, december, and say it all worked out. we've seen this in midterm elections. we've seen in the off-year election this year, that people do get fed up with these abortion bans. people do get fed up with these book bans. but this is going to take some work, and people have to be more engaged. they don't have to be as engaged as professors and cable news anchor stupid, they do have to be more engaged than maybe they are right now. >> look, ali. as you noted earlier, it's already happening. this is not a matter of concern, speculation, like it was when daniel sibila and i wrote how democracies die five years ago. american democracy is already eroding. if you look at major democracy indices over organizations that measure democracy across the world, for one, freedom house, freedom house has a score that it gives to every country every year from zero, all of zero, north korea, to 100. united states, a decade ago, had a score of 92, which put it basically on par with japan and the uk and germany and canada.

today, it is down to 83. that is still a democracy, but it'sed with romania and its below argentina. and that may seem shocking, maybe to viewers, but when you have an effort by an incumbent president to overturn, violently overturn an election, when you have widespread efforts to restrict access to the ballot, and really importantly, when you have widespread, violent threats against election workers, against prosecutors, against judges, against election officials, you fall to a point where freedom house considers you less democratic than argentina. so, we're already there. argentina. >> and ironically, three years ago today, joe, and that's the conversation you and i were having. that we descended into a level of violence that we had not seen in a very long time since the times that you read your book about. and we are full circle. guys, thanks very, much it's an important conversation, we will keep happeni