today, it is down to 83. that is still a democracy, but it'sed with romania and its below argentina. and that may seem shocking, maybe to viewers, but when you have an effort by an incumbent president to overturn, violently overturn an election, when you have widespread efforts to restrict access to the ballot, and really importantly, when you have widespread, violent threats against election workers, against prosecutors, against judges, against election officials, you fall to a point where freedom house considers you less democratic than argentina. so, we're already there. argentina. >> and ironically, three years ago today, joe, and that's the conversation you and i were having. that we descended into a level of violence that we had not seen in a very long time since the times that you read your book about. and we are full circle. guys, thanks very, much it's an important conversation, we will keep happening.

it through enforcement, professor american history at yale university, and steven levitskiy is a professor of history at harvard university. two days before -- judge michael luttig got a phone call that may have changed the course of history for this nation. then, a capitol police officer who risked his life on january six is hoping to serve his country to different way, this time as an elected official. plus i will talk to california -- colorado secretary of state janet griswold on the heels of the decision to see whether trump is eligible to be on the stage primary ballot. another hour of velshi starts right now. good morning, it's saturday december the six. i'm ali velshi. it's been three years since that mob attacked the united states capitol as part of donald trump's desperate attempt to cling to power after losing the 2020 presidential election. that attack lasted only a few hours, but the long shadow of the violent insurrection continues to loom large over

american democracy, especially now as the 2024 race heats up. but the twice impeached multiple indicted former president and the current duly elected president understand this, which is why january six is a central component of each of their presidential campaigns, albeit in very different ways. president biden gave the first major speech of his reelection bid yesterday, and use it as an opportunity to reflect on how the insurrection expose trump's complete disregard for america's constitutional and democratic values and emphasize that the former president remains a danger to democracy. acy. >> today we gather in the new year, some 246 years later, just one day before january six. a day forever seared in our memory because it was on that day that we nearly lost america, lost it all. today, we are here to answer the most important questions. is democracy still americas

sacred cause? [applause] i mean it! this is not rhetorical, academic, or hypothetical. democracy still americas sacred causes the most urgent question of our time. that's what the 2024 election is all about. >> now in stark contrast, donald trump has gone to great lengths to try to rewrite the history of the insurrection. he said the january six was quote, a beautiful day. calls of people who've been charged or convicted for storming the capitol martyrs and hostages. he enters the 2024 race both as the undisputed front runner for the republican nomination and as a criminal defendant facing a total of 91 charges in four different jurisdictions including a number of charges related to his role on january the 6th. with recent polling showing a close race between trump and biden, there is a very real possibility that and insurrectionists could return

to the white house and use the powers of the presidency to exact retribution against his political enemies, as trump has openly and repeatedly vowed to do. it is a predicament that is given rise to a number of constitutional questions that are justice system has never had to consider, because an insurrectionist never had to run for president before, nor is the former president ever been charged with a crime. many of the questions remain unresolved, and they could fundamentally alter the dynamics of this year's elections that tension was on full display last night when the supreme court of the night nations re to consider whether trump is ineligible for colorado's republican primary ballot. last, month colorado state supreme court ruled that the former president should be barred from the ballot because of his actions leading up to the insurrection. the justices are scheduled to hear oral arguments in that case on february 8th, which is lightning speed by supreme court standards. trump's eligibility to run for office has been challenged in 34 states and has produced mixed results so far. the number of lawsuits have

been dismissed, others are pending in the courts. the supreme courts are not only going to decide whether trump will appear in colorado's primary ballot, but it will most likely determine his eligibility to run in the entire general election. that may not be the only trump related issue the supreme court will be asked to consider in the coming weeks and months. on tuesday, a federal appeals court will hear arguments regarding trump's claim that he is immune from criminal prosecution for things he did during his presidency. another matter that has few presidents and american history. a trump's eligibility to be on the ballot is the most pressing one right now. the election season begins in earnest with the iowa caucuses just nine days from today. maine is the only other states so far to roll that trump's constitutionally disqualified from bearing on the ballot. last hour, i spoke to the secretary of state from maine. but due to the unprecedented nature of this entire situation, officials in both colorado and maine are operating with great restraint and have put their decisions on hold to allow

higher courts to weigh in on the matter. by law, color secretary of state janet griswold had to certify the primary ballots yesterday, which she did, including putting trump's name on that list for now per the colorado supreme court's order. but the matter is far from settled, and a lot can still change depending on what the supreme court has to say and the next several weeks. joining me now is janet griswold, secretary of state of colorado, the chair of the democratic association of secretaries of state. and i have to say, secretary griswold, you and i have talked for a long time. you have been a great friend of the show. i wasn't guessing that you're going to become the most famous and central secretary of state in the entire country, but here you are, you are in the middle of the biggest constitutional question that we are facing on the state as regards the next election. you made a decision last night to put donald trump's name on the ballot because your ballots have to be printed, your primaries on march the 5th.

explain that decision to us. >> good morning ali, and always a pleasure to see you. i do think that the colorado supreme court got it right. donald trump incited an insurrection, the u.s. constitution prohibits candidates who engaged in insurrection from being on the ballot, and so he is disqualified. however, the colorado supreme court said that if an appeal was filed by the january 4th, trump would be presumed on the ballot into the u.s. supreme court acted, and that is exactly what happened. and so i did certify trump to the ballot. ballots for overseas and military voters will actually go out this month, and so it is really urgent that the supreme court acts swiftly so that coloradans and frankly all americans know whether someone who engaged in insurrection can run for the highest office in this country again. >> and i guess i want to ask

you, because you and i have talked very regularly in the past few months about this particular issue, and one thing that you have known since day one, so this idea of section three of the 14th amendment, which many of us have never paid much attention to, u.s. secretary of state would have understood it. you have said from the beginning, in the end, while you are the secretary of state, ron administer the elections, in colorado, you knew that lots of other people would have to weigh in, i.e. other courts. so you know that the microscope is on, you and you are now trying to do everything you can do despite knowing what you know about donald trump in the insurrection. you're trying to do everything that you can't to foresee everything that can go wrong and everybody who will challenge you for your decisions. will >>r youre you fo that's right. this is such a big case. donald trump obviously is the most popular republican candidate in the republican primary, and how he acts is trying to grab on to power by any means.

so i think it was evident from the beginning that any challenge to his candidacy would be litigated. you know, i do think it is important to say that no matter what happens, whether he is on the ballot or disqualified from the ballot, that is not the end of this saga. democracy will not die because some court decision. americans have all of the power giving the world at the ballot box next year, and i'm so confident in the american voter. i'm sure that we will hold on to democracy past the next election. >> but you are of the view and sort of opposition to a number of political pundits who have been on to say that there are people who have said, this is the wrong way to do it, that getting rid of donald trump should be done at the ballot box as a political process. you showed the view of most legal minds, including judge luttig, who i will speak to a few moments that the law is the law, the constitution of the constitution. the way that you run elections

in terms of qualification is what it is, in the same way that i cannot run to be the president of the united states because i am a naturalized citizen, it is not a penalty, it is just a rule and in your estimation donald trump does not meet the qualifications to run for president of the united states. >> as secretary of state, it is my duty to uphold the law in the constitution, and that comes first before any type of political strategy. so to tell you the political strategy that's not even weigh in to decision-making. a lot in the constitution does. and i think it is very evident that donald trump did engage an insurrection. only two courts in this nation have grappled with that question. both determined that he did, and on top of, that we also saw what happened on january six 2021. we saw it with their own eyes, we don't need experts to tell us whether it was in insurrection or not. and on top of, that ali, i just

fundamentally disagree that there should be some carve out in the constitution for the president. donald trump should not be above the law, above the constitution. a president should not have that type of power. it would set an extremely dangerous precedent to say that a president can break whatever law reconstitution prison that they want to as president. that is what would really lead us to a downward spiral and a degrading of democracy like we've never seen before in this country. >> in the last hour, i spoke with a colleague from maine, secretary of state janet pelosi concluded that section three and four of the 14th amendment is self executing, meaning that a criminal prosecution is not necessary in this case to determine whether donald trump is disqualified. however, as you just pointed out, there was not a criminal prosecution in this case, but there was a process, a very robust process, in colorado and in maine that determined that donald trump engaged in insurrection. so we are not guessing about this. it's not even based on sort of

the video that we watched, that we've all seen. there was a real process, and as i asked her, i will ask you. tell me, what is the short version so that you can explain to people that you are not freelancing on this. you engage in a rigorous process. >> yes, no freelancing on these decisions. a case was filed in colorado on september 6th of last year. it led to a five-day trial. donald trump was able to call every single witness he wanted. he was able to present evidence. the judge bent over backwards to make sure that he could present evidence. and i think it is northward of a, ali, because some people were saying that there wasn't enough due process. there was enough to process, this was a real trial, and donald trump did everything he could to invade evade showing up. he refused to show up, he refused to take depositions, and now he wants to argue to

the united states supreme court, well, the process was unfair. that is not how it works! just because you choose not to engage does not mean it wasn't fair. and it's just the characteristic of trump. he wants all of the rules to bend towards him and his whatever is the best outcome for him, he wants to manipulate the situation. that is not how courts work. so it was a robust process at the trial level, and then there was an appeal to the colorado supreme court, and of course last word will be had by the united states supreme court oral arguments on february 8th. >> and we will talk again. thank you as always as being such a good friend to our show and making things so clear to our viewers. jena griswold is the secretary of state for colorado. still ahead this hour, the judge michael luttig had preserve democracy on january six. he did it from a standing room table. judge luttig is going to join me next with his remarkable story. maybe i can get him to do it from the dining room table like you did back then? three years later, american

democracy is not in the clear, however, far from. it i will speak with two scholars on what we should all be paying attention to. you're watching velshi on msnbc. ching velshi on msnbc. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) now we're even smarter and ready for what's next. (vo) achieve enterprise intelligence. it's your vision, it's your verizon. as the world keeps moving, help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too.

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january six, 2020, one we have gained some birds eye view clarity about what got us to that fever pitch moment and the implications it had and almost had on our nation. just like how close we were to a very different outcome, and how fragile our democratic systems our. but with some distance, it is easy to look at some of the details from that day. the failure of that plan to subvert the election, the success of our fragile democratic system of transferring power, it all came down to a few laws that were in place a few courts that did their jobs, and a small handful of people who acted in good faith to stop president trump and his following. one of those people is the

judge michael luttig. around here on my team, the story of luttig's tweets that save democracy has become a well-known piece of history. judge michael luttig, a former federal appeals court judge, conservative, longley considered one of the most conserve judges in the nation, was at his home in colorado and january 4th, 21, when he was eating dinner with his wife. he got a call from an old friend who was serving as outside counsel to then vice president mike pence. he told judge luttig that attorney john eastman was insisting to president trump that pence had the constitutional authority to block the certification of electors and overturn the election in favor of trump. luttig can hardly believe what he was hearing. he was respected eastman as a constitutional scholar, but he told his phone on the phone, look, you can tell the vice president that i said he has no such authority at all. by early the next morning, the situation had escalated. luttig received another urgent call from the outside counsel, who this time, ask not just for advice, but to intervene. he said quote, judge, can you help the vice president? we need you to say something

publicly. we need to get your voice out to the country. luttig was willing to help, but he didn't quite know how. he was retired, he couldn't think -- he didn't think he had much of a platform. how would he get his message to the message? you remember thinking, i don't even have a fax machine. then he remembered that he opened an account on social media website called twitter a few months before, but he barely use the site, didn't really know how to work it. so with urgency, judge luttig typed out his statement. he looked up how to make a tweet thread, and on january 5th, he tweeted out a seventh tweet thread statement reading in part, quote, the only responsibility and power of the vice president under the constitution is to faithfully count the electoral college votes as they have been cast. the constitution does not empower the vice president to alter in any way the votes that have been cast, either by rejecting certain of them or otherwise, end quote. and that was apparently what mike pence needed to do the right thing, the lawful thing. we know what happens next. on january six, then vp pence bumps donald trump and certify

the election for the rightful winner, joseph r. biden. pence released a statement citing luttig's legal analysis. the next, a judge luttig was sitting in a car outside of a u.p.s. -- he was vice president mike pence calling to think. when he did know how many votes for a set of tweets was going to be, but judge michael luttig gave mike pence a legal covert to -- and refused to overturn the election. this action alone contributed to the saving of democracy in america, and since, then a lot has developed. for one, judge luttig has mastered twitter, now known as x, it continues to tweet out important and influential opinions that we are all better for. judge luttig has also been a central voice and supporting the legal arguments around disqualifying donald trump based off the insurrection clause in the 14th amendment. and judge luttig, a great friend of the show, joins me after a quick break. k break. it's the only medication that can treat a migraine when it strikes

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told you about a tweet thread that may have preserved at least one facet of democracy on january six. the tweet was posted by judge michael luttig, a former federal judge at the u.s. court of appeals for the fourth circuit. he joins me now. judge luttig, so much has happened since then. i thank you again for your service to the country, but it has evolved, right? back then you are talking about what the constitution allows the vice president to do as it related to the transition of power. now, you have recently since i think august 19th taken at the cause of section three of the 14th amendment of the nine states constitution about whether or not donald trump is eligible to run for the presidency of the united states, and then a couple of weeks and see what i have last talked, so much has happened. you may have just heard my conversation with the colorado secretary of state. the supreme court's on february 8th going to take up this matter. i would love your thoughts on that.

>> thank, you ali. this issue is always destined for the supreme court of united states, and of the court itself understands the momentous importance of the colorado case for the country. this will be one of the most consequential supreme court decisions for both american democracy and for american politics since the founding of the nation. ali, the genius of the constitution is that it belongs to the people of the united states. it belongs to the american people. the constitution is the great charter of our self government, and it majestically guns, we the people of the united states. in order to form a more perfect union do ordain and establish this constitution. this is one of the rarest moments in constitutional history where literally millions upon millions of

americans are interested in and riveted in the meaning of the constitution. every american can read the single sentence of the disqualification clause of the 14th amendment and understand that the former president violated the constitution when he attempted to remain in power after his four year term have lapsed, preventing the peaceful transfer of power to his successor for the first time in american history. very often, ali, the meaning of the constitution is pointing to the people if not more so then it is to the supreme court of the night states. this is one of those times. the framers of the 14th amendment envisioned precisely this moment when they wrote the disqualification clause of the 14th amendment.

the moment when, despite losing a presidential election, a president of the united states would attempt to remain and the presidency beyond his four-year term and prevent the peaceful transfer of power to his successor who had been elected by the american people. it is this violation of the constitution that constitutes an insurrection or rebellion against the constitution of the united states within the meaning of the 14th amendment. the disqualification clause is perhaps the most democratic provision in the constitution, highly. by the same token, it is the disqualification clause of the constitution that tells us that an insurrection or rebellion against the constitution is perhaps the most anti

democratic conduct possible in our democracy. justice robert jackson said once that the constitution is not a suicide pact, it is the disqualification clause in the 14th amendment that proves this axiom true. >> you know, you when i talk before christmas. you warned of a argument that was bubbling up in political circles, which by the way now the president united states actually used in the appeal to the colorado supreme court decision that he's going to use at the supreme court of the nine states, and that is that this should be settled on a political level, not on the basis of the constitution. now you and other legal experts are of one mind on this, that, i'm going to paraphrase, that is a dumb argument. >> ali, i wouldn't phrase it that way.

i and other scholars, including professor laurence tribe, are of one mind that the constitution disqualifies the former president from further high office. m furthe that is a separate and distinct point from the one that is being made by the former president and others that are this would be settled through the political process, that is that the former president would submit himself to the voters of america and the voters themselves would decide whether he should be the president of the united states again. our point, rather, is that the constitution of the united states for bids the former president from assuming the presidency again.

so, in other words, because this argument is getting more -- with each passing day to say would be less satisfying to the american public to see it done this way. as opposed to seeing donald trump defeated on the ballot. that would be the same as saying, it's okay to let somebody run for president who wouldn't be 35 at the time of their inauguration. or hasn't been the country for certain maritime. or is a naturalized citizen. these are qualifications. they're not penalties. >> that's exactly right, ali. what the american public is going to come to understand is that the constitution of the united states is what will forbid the former president from running. from holding the office of the presidency again. if that's the decision of the supreme court of the united

states. this is not a question, if you will, that's open to the american people. the constitution of the united states has settled on this issue. beginning with the ratification of section three of the 14th amendment in 1868. provided that that's what the supreme court of the united states holtz. >> let me ask you about how you think the supreme court is going to interpret this. there is your and laurence tribe and others interpretation of the 14th amendment. when you describe as being self executing. but there is the supreme court. and they have other concerns, they should only have traditional concerns. they're gonna have other concerns, including the politics of this and how it's gonna play out. donald trump and his people have been sending coded messages via cable television

about supreme court justices who owe him because he put them on the supreme court. how do all these pressures come to bear on how the supreme court is going to decide this? >> well, as you know, ali, i never speak about politics. and i will not today speak about the politics of this decision. at the supreme court of the united states. i will say this, the supreme court does not want to decide this case. and it will likely look for every legitimate way possible, legitimate way possible, to avoid deciding whether the former president is disqualified from the presidency. having studied the disqualification clause myself for three years now, there are very, very few, if any, off-ramps that would allow the supreme court to avoid a decision in this case.

indeed, i believe there are none. section three of the 14th amendment simply could not be any clearer. that the former president is disqualified from the presidency as the colorado supreme court held. >> judge luttig, as you know, we have great respect for you here on the show, and our viewers are grateful to you for your actions before january 6th and your continued articulation of what the law and the constitution says. we thank you again, sir, thank you for being with us. >> thank you, ali. >> judge jay michael luttig is a former federal judge of the united states court of appeals for the fourth circuit. still ahead, the story of the retired police officer harry dunn who defended the capitol four years ago today. he hopes to continue -- defending democracy at the capitol. but in an entirely different capacity. that's next. at's next. like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat

could be something more serious called attr-cm, a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist, and ask about attr-cm. i've made the preservation of american democracy calthe central issuest, of my presidency. i believe in free and fair elections and the right to vote fairly and have your vote counted. there's something dangerous happening in america. there's an extremist movement that does not share

the basic beliefs in our democracy. all of us are being asked right now: what will we do to maintain our democracy? history is watching. the world is watching. and most important our children and grandchildren will hold us responsible. the vice president and i have supported voting rights since day one of this administration, and i ask every american to join me in this cause. america is still a place of possibilities where the power resides with we, the people. that's our soul. we are the united states of america. there is nothing beyond our capacity when we act together. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. at bombas, we're obsessed with socks. tees. and underwear. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. on january 6th, 2021, when

insurrectionists broke into the capitol with a mission to stop democracy in its tracks, americas elected lawmakers, members of the house and the senate, were inside. they came out, physically unscathed that day, thanks, in part, to the law enforcement heroes who defended the capitol. the capital police and other nearby police departments ran into the danger that day. they faced violence and hatred and chaos. they lost colleagues. and after the insurrection, those officers returned to the halls of congress, forced to revisit those horrifying memories. you came to know several of those officers in their stories. when they testified before the house january 6th committee, recalling the worst of what they endured that day. one of those officers was sergeant harry dunn. he delivered powerful testimony about his experience. allowing the nation to see the insurrection through his eyes. >> i sat down on a bench in the rotunda with a friend of mine, he was also a black capitol

police officer. and told him about the racial slurs i endured. i became very emotional. and begin yelling. how the blank could something like this happen. is this america? so disheartening and disappointing that we live in a country with people like that. that attack you because of the color of your skin. just to hurt you. those words are weapons. my blood is red. i'm an american citizen. i'm a police officer. i'm a peace officer. i'm here to defend this country. >> harry dunn participated in several congressional hearings, he testified and observed in some of the 1265 cases against january 6th defendants. he testified during the oath keepers seditious conspiracy trial in 2022. he also wrote a book, pushing for accountability in an era of

intensifying political extremism. his commitment did not go unnoticed. along with other officers who protected the capitol during the attack, don was awarded the congressional gold medal in 2022. and then on the second anniversary of january 6th last year, dunn received the presidential citizens medal from president biden, the second highest civilian award in the united states. harry dunn served a capitol police force from 2008 until december 17th, 2023. just three weeks ago. when he retired. dunn has spent his career physically protecting democracy. and even putting his life on the line for it. well he may have retired from his career as a police officer, he might still have a future on capitol hill. >> i'm here to announce my candidacy to fight back and be able to push back against the people in congress right now that i spent the last 15 years of my life protecting. i want to serve as they're equal. as their colleague.

i want to voice at the table. >> harry dunn told my colleagues on morning joe yesterday, he's running for office to replace the retiring democratic congressman john sarbanes of maryland. not gonna be an easy win. he'll first have to defeat at least ten other democratic candidates, including at least one state legislature -- legislator, and any other potential candidates who may jump into the race. well done has lifted issues like infrastructure, mental health, and crime as important to his campaign, he says, quote, my platform is democracy. democracy

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at st. jude, the mission is just something that everyone can truly get behind. look at our little st. jude pin there on the fridge! we're just regular people donating. yeah. and i think it's cool to be able to make a difference in someone's lives in a way that is meaningful. as the world keeps moving, help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too. democratic scholars, and

scholars of democracy, not democratic party scholars, have an important message for all of. us if you are not yet alarmed about the future of american democracy, you're simply not paying enough attention. the same scholars say that part of the blame rests with us, us meaning the media. for years, some of my colleagues in the press have minimized in trivialized the democratic threat posed by donald trump and his followers. dismissing it as hyperbole, as entertainment, as antics. and while he is a very large threat, he's not close to being the only threat. our democracy has been under assault for sometime. from judicial overreach, and routine book bans, to attacks on civil liberties, diversity programs and abortion rights. mega assault is striking antidemocratic foundations at every level. local, state, federal, on top of, that we're not seeing an uptick and political violence

and threats of violence. which are hallmarks of fascist authoritarian regimes. in 2016, the capitol police reported fewer than 900 threats against members of congress. by 2022, the first full term of the joe biden administration, the numbers had surged eight fold, to a whopping 7500. even republan lawmakers could face threats if they don't tow the maga line. prompting many toall in line behind trump. -- outlines the danger, writing, quote, trump's most fanatica followers of created a situation where challenging him carries not only political risks but also personal ones. elected officials who dared defy the former president face serious threats to their well-being, into that -- he's raising the cost of taking an already difficult stand. as a result, the threat of violence is now part of the american political system. to the point where republican hopefuls, are by their own admissions, changing the way they behave because they fear him.

and quote. joining me now is the aforementioned zach beach, i'm senior correspondent at vox, also with us jason stanley, professor of philosophy at yale university. good morning to both of. you thank you for being with us. zach, an hour ago, i spoke with joanne freeman and stephen -- stephen levitsky made a point, the freedom house evaluation of american freedom has dropped from 92 to 83 or something like that. one of the things he cites, and it's -- his special specialty as well. is violence. the threat of violence in our political system. this is real. this is not something that has been associated with american politics, except for key points in our history like the civil war, the civil rights movement. generally, speaking that's not part of how we think about our politics. >> look, that's right. look, the united states is self understood as the world's -- oldest democracy. the longest continuous constitution, candid continuous history of democratic rule. you can quibble that with this definition, one really important part of democracy, as

we understand, it is that you don't have a violent transitions of power. and you don't have violence as a routine way in which political power is decided, determined, and allocated. and what we're seeing here, the united states, actually spoke to joanne from this article. she told me that it's unprecedented, since and this is very ominous parallel. the run up to the civil war. where there was this significant amount of internal conflict in violence in american politics. it's just the way in which, when i spoke to lawmakers, i spoke to experts, they worried about the effect on democracy from, not even just the actual acts of violence like we saw three years ago, but the threat of such acts repeating. i mean, there's been nothing like it in my lifetime. >> jason i'm not so proud of a lot of things in life. i'm proud of the fact that for the last three years, the show is leaned very, very heavily into the threats of democracy. i agree with her criticism of

some of the media. you believe that the press is largely dropped the ball on this. speaking to -- you recently, said the time has come to recognize that trump is an incredibly compelling and magnetic figure. he's a cult leader and a master of crowds, right out of the history books, in his ability to use propaganda. to actually say that trump is a buffoon makes you the person saying it the real buffoon. >> yes. central to democracy, democratic institutions. what are democratic institutions? the press, schools and universities, the courts in the political, politicians. what we're seeing is a phenomenon that has that historians describe, use the term -- coordination. to describe not see germany in the 1930s. what we're seeing is the use of fear to make sure that teachers and professors, journalists, and judges, are too afraid to

speak the truth. the goal here is to erase history. so, if you want to erase history, you want to make the people whose job it is to speak the facts, the tell you the history, either the recent history as in january 6th, or the far history, as in the causes of the civil war. you want to make them afraid to speak the truth. that's what we're witnessing here. we are witnessing a concerted collective attack on democratic institutions. and it's making the press afraid to call it like it. is they're fearful of being called out as partisan. where being partisan in this context means speaking the truth. >> so, there's two questions then, zak. there's the people who are afraid, whom he wrote about. including republicans. but anybody really. because the trump administration or people in the trump administration who were there, who are going to be there again go on tv all the time and say we're gonna come after the press. we're gonna come after trump

loyalists. there is the real afraid. and then there's the people who say this is just an overreaction. that it's not really that serious. it's not actually about democracy at risk. it's not actually about breaking our institutions. what a response to that? >> well, i think the second is willfully naive. i think that there is a deep sense, of a lot of americans, that we are, as i mentioned earlier, the oldest democracy in the world. and we want to stay that way. i mean, you, know there's a lot of reason to think. that early systematically, there has been. technically, democracies, according to political scientists, or older. tennis revive longer. they tend to last longer. in perpetuity. itself repatriating cycle. but what we've been seeing in the past 20 odd years, i would say, maybe 15, is a change to that long understanding of the way that democracy operates. and the way that it perpetuates itself. you're starting to see democratic breakdown in

countries that have long histories of democracy. perhaps not as long as the united states, but india's been a democracy for decades. so too has been israel. hungary was considered one the most stable post communist dates. all of these countries are experiencing, to varying degrees, hungry is gone altogether into authoritarian camp, breakdowns of democracy. so, what's happening in the united states, it feels impossible to a lot of people. that's where you get those attitudes that it's not that big a deal. this can't possibly happen here. except it is happening. it's the same set of patterns. to a lesser degree, it's not as bad as it is in some other countries. but the way that trump is talking about a second term? it means that -- it could get that bad. very quickly. and we need to be really vigilant about the kind of policies that he. -- >> interesting, point where i would take a quick break, we'll take a -- interesting point when you bring up israel, india, and hungry. all of them have the vote. having the vote doesn't mean that you can not become

authoritarian or dictatorial place. we seem to associate, as olivia of the vote, you're safe. that's not entirely true. let's come back just a moment. zach beecher, jason stanley. we'll continue just a second. ust a second it's the only medication that can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks. treat and prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. relief is possible. talk to a doctor about nurtec odt.

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senior correspondent, fox chase and staley, professor of philosophy at yale university. jason, let's pick up on the point that zach was making. i said earlier in the show, literally countries that have a population of four billion people, half the planets population in 60 different countries, will vote in national elections this year. including india. the world's largest democracy, if we can still call it that. in the world is tilting otherwise. joe biden likes to say that democracies winning, no disrespect to him, he's actually wrong. authoritarianism is ascendant in the world. >> that's right.

and i think it's really important to note that we're not the world's oldest democracy. we're a very young democracy. we went to democracy until the voting rights act. black americans were not allowed to vote in much of the country. so, we weren't at all a democracy. that's important. why is that important? because when authoritarianism threatens the practices of the past return. and that's what we're seeing. with the attacks on schools and the attacks on universities, we're seeing a push to erase history. to replace actual history with a narrative of the dominant group. we're seeing attacks on voting rights, a return of jim crow, similar return of jim crow type practices. people returning to the authoritarian practices of the past, and that's what we're seeing in the united states. we're seeing a return to mccarthyism. we're seeing a very clear return to mccarthyism. we're seeing, for essentially calls for a house of un-american activities.

committee. we are going back to these moments in our authoritarian passed before we moved closer to the democratic ideals that the united states represents. and that's the threat here. it's very important that we bear in mind that we are a young democracy. >> but this concept of the erosion of democracy, as opposed to the overthrow of democracy is really important. as echoes right back to the point or talking about whether it's india, hungary, which i struggle with this for a long time. israel, america. it's not that it's all of a sudden going to be a revolution despite the words that donald trump uses, he can do what he wants to do. even within the constructs of our current democratic institutions. sure, will change some things, and you break more norms. in fact, democracy exists because we agree it exists, jointly. >> that's right. and its rules also are a lot more fragile, a lot more easy to manipulate that one might

think. there's a great freeze that -- a professor at princeton who studies hungry uses. which is authoritarian legal -ism. which means that the law is being used, not as a tool of the rule of law, or a tool of democracy, for even ensuring quality, but twisted in a very subtle and almost imperceptible ways. to change the functioning of democracy itself. so, when you look at some of the detailed stuff that you've seen coming out for trump's second term, if he does in fact when, things like replacing large chunks of the federal bureaucracy. to a lot of, people that doesn't resonate. oh, chasing staff. who cares. but actually that matters a great deal. because those people determine, in very little ways, what the law means. they're the ones implementing it. so if trump is changing over a huge chunk of the department of justice staff, replacing long term salaried professionals with political cronies, all of a sudden, the law can be abused as a tool of going after's

opponents. essentially, what he accuses the government of happening right now, if the government doing right now against him. even though that's much more neutral application of the law. we can see, and he's basically promising this in his rhetoric, to ape the tactics. the politicization of different forms of government. of turning democracy into an anti-democratic enterprise from the inside, without calling it something. different that really at the heart of what's motivating the trump movement right now. >> work is ahead of us. it's january. we've got a number of months to work on this and fix this. and if you look at the off-year election, the midterm elections, it does seem that americans are taking these matters seriously. i appreciate the warnings that you are both sending. however seriously you take in this, it means you taken yet more seriously than. that exact meacham, senior correspondent for vox. jason stanley, professor of philosophy at yale university. that does it for me for today, thank you for watching, catch me back here tomorrow morning from 10 am to noon eastern.

don't forget, velshi is available as a podcast. in which i wear that vest. follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. stay where you are, my friend alex witt picks up our coverage right after this. right after this a very good day to all of you from the -- center here in los angeles. welcome, everyone, to alex witt reports. we begin with a major development, the supreme court said it will decide whether former president trump can be kept off the 2024 presidential ballot after colorado banned him. arguments will be heard in five weeks, and trump had this to say last night in iowa. >> the supreme court is taking the case from colorado. all i want is fair. i fought really hto