democratic system represents and can be, and far more impatience and frustration with perceived corruption, of the political classes, the impunity for which they operate, and of, course the capacity that our societies and governments to deliver economically to them. >> guys, thanks very much. this is a conversation we could be having four hours that i fortunately we will have to have this conversation for hours over the course of this year. but i appreciate the remarkable coverage you are both giving this really, really important topic. i encourage my viewers to follow you and read your material. ramy is the editor and chief of foreign policy, and -- is a foreign affairs columnist at the washington post. i just want to issue a correction. while talking about elections in the country of chad, we showed you an image of the longtime leader of south sudan. that was just a technical error on our side, but we apologize for that mistake. still ahead, anti government protests across israel demanding the removal of prime minister benjamin netanyahu.

what comes next for israel? we're going to discuss with a former member of the knesset. the true story behind the ousting apartments first black president. spoiler alert, it wasn't about plagiarism. we will discuss the conservative effort to get claudine gay removed. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning >> it is sunday, january the 7th. it is orthodox christmas. i'm ali velshi. if you paid any attention at all to the u.s. jobs report at any point over the next three years, there's a good chance you heard the phrase, better than expected. you probably heard it again over the past few days, following the latest report for december. 216,000 net new jobs were created. much better than expected, per cnbc. in the old days, we'd say than 150,000 or more jobs created in one month was good. there are now one point 42 open

positions for every job seeker in america. while every available job is not matched to every available job seeker, mathematically, america has more jobs than it has available workers, and that's just a fact. december's 216,000 is not an anomaly either. that's largely been the trend for biden's presidency since he entered office in 2021. you can easily find similar headlines about better than expected numbers in june of 2021, in june of 2022, in january of 2022, in september of 2023. this has been one of the top achievements of biden's presidency. it shows that he's been able to sustain a strong economy throughout his first three years in office. unfortunately for him, the optimism that outside experts have about the economy is not broadly shared by the general public, and it's entirely and seemingly willfully ignored by republican voters. an nbc news poll from november found that only 39% of registered voters approve of biden's handling of the economy, compared to 59% who disapprove. in a separate poll of

registered voters, in six battleground states by the and siena college, the majority of respondents, 59%, so they trust donald trump to do a better job with the economy over biden. the disconnect between the public's perception of the health of the the economy versus how the economy is actually performing is deeply, deeply troubling, regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum. it's a sign of how well propaganda works. it doesn't help that biden's running against trump will take every opportunity to destroy the reality of the situation. so, i want to put that to a test for, you especially for those who think that they would prefer donald trump to preside over the economy versus joe biden. during his first run for president, donald trump set the bar very high, when he pledged that he will be, quote, the greatest jobs producer that god ever created. and jobs he did create. remember i told you that anything more than 150,000 a month is good? while trump added an average of 190,000 jobs in 2018. the strongest period during his

presidency. that still pales in comparison to biden's 2023, 225,000 jobs, and biden's 225,000 is stronger than anything else that trump did in his three years full, years as president. while trump has been claiming that everybody had jobs when he was president, it's actually better under biden. the unemployment rate, rather than the number of jobs created per month, has been another indication for the economy. people who have been watching me for a long time know that i've never liked this number very much, because it's a percentage, and the denominator changes every month. but trump loved it, so i'm adding it to the comparison. the average unemployment rate in the last two years has been better than any rate at any point during trump's long term as president. under biden, it's actually been below 4% for 25 straight months. again, let's take a 2021, because that was the height of covid. that's an anomaly. this is the longest streak of below 5% since the 1960s. in my youth, as an economics

reporter, it was widely understood that 5% is considered full employment. it doesn't get much better than that, except under biden, it does. every single month. there's a number of other indicators that bode well for president biden to, despite what uninformed or misinformed americans believe. last wednesday, the des moines register published an op-ed by nikki haley on the topic of the economy that was headlined, quote, ending reckless spending will boost our economy and stop inflation. now, that gives off the impression that the economy is still in a downturn, and that inflation rates continue to skyrocket among unprecedented levels. that's a lie. one which adds to the overall feeling that things seem worse than they actually are. here's how one trump supporter in iowa expressed that sent been to nbc news last week. >> our economy is really tanking the last four years. and everyone is hurting. the inflation numbers are, they say, single digits to like ten or so percent? but i see much greater numbers,

i see my own life, probably a 30% increase in inflation, and it's just really tough. >> a study inflation pretty closely, and that woman's mouth isn't mathing. but in case she or anyone else is watching this, i've got some good news for her and for nikki haley as well. ever since inflation hit a peak of 9.1% in june of 2022, the biden era, it has cooled down considerably. it's actually been on a downward trend since then, and is now under control. inflation rates are now currently at 3.1%, which will higher than the feds target rate, is a number that most global economist say makes sense for an economy like americas over the long term. presidents have little control over gas prices, but that often adds to voters feelings about the economy, and in that regard, there's good news to, because gas prices are also down. it's gone from a peak of four 93 a gallon in june of 2022, to $3.13 last month. the lowest they've been for two and a half years. even the stock markets, which trump love to brag about on a

near daily basis during his presidency, and i tend to prefer not to talk about all that often, has been doing that hunter biden. the dow has reached record highs in recent weeks, and the s&p is between close to the same. the disconnect between how people feel about the economy and what the numbers and data actually show is a head-scratcher. it's willful ignorance on the part of voters who actually earn money, have retirement accounts, by gas and food, to continue to believe that this economy is doing badly, even when -- i can't say the words on television, but the initials for that are bs. the economy is doing well, the economy is doing much better than expected, and those are just the facts. joining me now, eugene scott, senior political reporter for axios, also with us is jonathan allen, national political reporter for nbc news and the author of how lucky, how joe biden won the presidency. guys, good to see you. thanks for being with us. jonathan, one of the things that is intriguing here is

polls versus things that are not polls, like the michigan consumer sentiment, which actually does not -- it shows something very tougher than what the polls are showing. people are feeling much more confident about the economy, and then what people actually do when they get to the ballot box. those are different things. i mean, watching a poll, these polls don't match the reality. >> yeah, not necessarily. sometimes people's perception isn't reality, as you point, out are very different. however, it's very difficult for politicians to argue with voters about what they are feeling in their own lives. about their perceptions being wrong. it's a trap for politicians to avert their perception of how much their daily life costs, their perception of politics is wrong. >> i agree with you, which is why i'm doing it. because it sort of impossible to say, hey, lady in iowa, you're not facing a 30% inflation rate. it's just not true. >> i would also say, we measure

inflation through month to month, and you have reduced rate of inflation. we look at that and say, wow, the economy is doing better, we're a little healthier than we were a year or two ago. and at the same time, for the consumer that is going to the grocery store, they are feeling the cumulative effects of that inflation, or at least there is the sticker shocked piece of that, where it's not just how much more expensive it was than last month, but how much more expensive it was than three years, ago because they remember when they bought milk at the grocery store three years ago, or even more acutely, i think people are feeling it at restaurants right now. >> and all of that would be a slam dunk for those who are critical of it, except for the fact that there is this other thing that's been going on, eugene, and that's wages. it's been going on for a long time, we just go up at a rate higher than inflation. biden tries to say that, but people, i don't know. what's going on? >> it's true, but with the axios swing voter project, one

thing i've talked to individuals about, who voted for trump in 2016, before pivoting to biden, what's also gone up that they've noticed is the cost of housing. reince, as well as the price to actually get into the homeownership market, especially for millennials, has been a real challenge. despite some of these individuals getting pay increases. and so while there have been decreases in other areas, including some areas that some voters perhaps don't feel directly impacted by, for example, gas prices going down, you are someone who lives in a walkable urban and vibrant and that's not a big issue for you. what is an issue for you is that you are paying more in rent then, to johns point, you remember paying a few years ago. >> tom, for democrats who seem to be leaning into the idea that this economy, this election is mostly going to be about democracy and dangerous democracy and reproductive rights and peoples rights in general, it's going to work for a lot of people. it may not be enough to fully win an election, so the economy

it is always a go-to. it's gotta be a go-to for presidential candidates, no matter what. can they handle this discussion better? because you are right. president biden can't go up to people and tell them, i'm sorry your feeling this way about the economy, here's the actual statistics. and then are correct. people feel what they feel. >> i certainly think they could be doing a better job, and that's not a criticism, it's just an observation that biden has told americans how terrible donald trump is and how good joe biden is for the last three years, if you look at polling, the two of them are running relatively even after all of that. so is there room for biden to improve? i think there's absolutely room for him to improve. one thing that i generally sort of hold as a constant in elections is the voters say please much more than they say thank you. what we are not hearing from the administration, we are not hearing from the biden campaign, is what they're going to promise voters. instead they're saying you

should be thankful and grateful for what we've done already, and you should keep biden in the presidency because he's been doing a great job. i think that maybe like an older model of politics, i'm doing fine, don't switch horses. i think in modern politics you've gotta have an agenda. you've gotta tell people what it is you're going to do for them, and then you use what you've done in the past to give some credibility to that. but right now, what we are hearing from biden is what we've been hearing for the last few years from him about him, and from him about trump. >> so, if you are a swing voter, in this country, what's the compelling argument? where is that too much of a generalization? in other words, right now, there seem to be too central arguments for biden. one is democracy, and the other one is we are not in a recession. we spent a lot of time last year predicting there would be a recession last year at this year, it looks like that's largely off the table. what's the thing that's going to move the swing voter? either both, or neither? >> we've spoken to swing voters in georgia, wisconsin, north

carolina, arizona, and the overwhelming majority of them have no interest in swinging back to trump. they just aren't there yet that they're going to vote for biden. one swing voter group that we need to focus on more is a swing voter who swings from voting to not voting at all. and so what biden is going to have to do is find a way not only to communicate his message to these individuals, but use new individuals. obviously, the lawmakers who turned to their districts can use talking points when the white house, assuming they're getting some. but i think it's important that we realize that many americans have just largely too much doubt for politicians altogether. but i think could be very effective for the biden white house is to -- get them to the democrats that they're open to this point. >> guys, i appreciate your time, as always, and your analysis. always look forward to seeing you both. eugene scott is a senior politics reporter, -- at nbc news and the author of lucky, how joe biden barely won the presidency. still ahead, claudine gay was ousted as harvard's president

in a deliberate and coordinated takedown, and she won't be the last person to come up against this particular conservative agenda. plus, thousands of protesters took to the speaks israel yesterday with a message for prime minister benjamin netanyahu. they want an end to the war, they want him out of office. up, next i'll talk to an israeli politician who voluntarily left netanyahu's administration last year. you're watching velshi. you're watching velshi. cid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. anti government protests in

israel have swept the country for the second week in a row. tens of thousands protested on saturday night demanding their or move all of prime minister benjamin netanyahu, the release of israeli captives in gaza, and an end to the war. according to the gaza health ministry, at least 22,800 people have been killed in the enclave, including 9600 children. as the war in gaza threatens to

spill over into the broader middle east, secretary of state antony blinken is in jordan today meeting with that country's leaders who are insisting that the united states push israel to agree to a cease-fire. tension between israel's military and netanyahu's administration spilled out into the open on thursday after the country's top general her soul halevi informed the security cabinet that the military would be launching a probe into the intelligence failures behind the deadly october 7th attack. the announcements brought heated criticism from netanyahu's allies who have insisted that any such inquiries have to wait until the conclusion of the gaza war. the military's announcement marked a significant shift for the israeli defense forces which up until this week had aligned with the leadership position. despite public apologies from israel's top security officials for failures which potentially led to the october 7th attack, netanyahu has resisted acknowledging responsibility, a stance feud by some analysts as a tactic to eventually place blame on the country's military and intelligence chiefs. with no end in sight to the war

in gaza, mountain voices from within the country and abroad are urging netanyahu to step down, something he insists he will not do. joining me here in studio after a quick greatness of samir, israel's former consul general in new york who voluntarily left the administration last year. we will be right back. istration last year we will be right back. we will be right back. have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease

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developments in the war between israel and hamas is ossoff's mere, israel's former consul general in new york and a former member of the knesset. he's israel's former minister of tourism. it's good to see you. thank you for being with us. i appreciate it. you and i, there are million things we could talk about here. there is the war, the possibility of a regional war. they are all connected, how this war ends and what happens with the hostages are all connected. what is your sense of where we are right now. the pressure on israel is

continuing to grow to move to something that looks like the end of this stage. >> i don't think we are close to the end of the war, sadly. hamas does not want the war to end. they have said it, the day after will only come when they annihilate israel. we can't let that happen. now that they have said that allow, it's like a moment of truth. it's the same thing with antisemitism all over the united states. i'm going to m.i.t. tomorrow to speak about rising antisemitism. it's all connected. i think we are about to see a warming up of the situation in the north. i want to -- >> with lebanon? >> we have nothing with the lebanese people or lebanese government, just hezbollah, which every one of you viewers, i hope, agrees is a terror organization. we don't have conflict of land with them. it is pure hate.

they have launched, i think, about 100 rockets in the last few days from lebanon to israel. there will be a point where we won't be able to keep quiet and sit down. i am hoping the world will understand that and support us. i am sure they will. there are 130,000 misplaced israelis right now, most of them around gaza and the northern border. they can't come home as long as this aggression stands. when you ask hezbollah, you get the same answers that you get from us. these are not people looking for a peace agreement, a two state solution, peace among the nations, and for everyone to live fine with each other. this is all a regional conflict. >> you make an interesting point. with hezbollah, there is no land dispute, but there actually is with the palestinians. >> yeah. >> regardless of hamas and its position, there is a larger issue. you and i have talked about in the past. there's a larger issue about how palestinians get their self determination. the world is asking that

question of israel. when you say hamas doesn't want the or to end, it appears to the world that neither spent your money on yahoo. we have parties involved in the conversation who are getting exclusive to the end. i agree with you. the hostages need to come out. that needs to be settled. we do have to discuss, they are tied, right? hamas loses all of its leverage in that moment. what's the future of the palestinian people at that point? >> there's a lot of question so that is really slick we are asking themselves. what do the majority of palestinians support right now? every academic research showed over 70% of support for the october 7th massacre. if there were elections, it's common knowledge hamas would be reelected. they would also be elected in the west bank. >> which we've known for a long time. >> the messages say there is no room for israel next to us. if this land dispute went back to the partition, went back to 67, and we honestly felt that there was a partner saying, let's try to figure this out, we would. >> you have that partner.

you had the partner in the palestinian authority. they have accepted the idea of a two-state aleutian for a long time. the government you resigned from marginalized them. >> the palestinian authority are the entity that received the control over gaza. when we left gaza and disengaged, even though it was a controversial thing, they lost that control to hamas, meaning they are not strong enough to be the partner you talk about. the second thing is abu mazen has not condemned october 7th. i believe he is too weak to be an alternative. there needs to be someone. they are not going anywhere. we're not going anywhere. i understand the. i have a brother in law in gaza right now. he goes home after home to khan younis and he says every home there is harboring weapons, has hamas posters, has a shoot inside to underground. every house i entered, there were people that were part of

october 7th, rooting for october 7th, sympathizing with october 7th. it's very hard to convince israeli today that there is a formidable partner in the palestinian territories which could be given control and would do it in a way that would not risk our security. >> lots of israelis like you also know that hamas was empowered by the man who's the prime minister of israel right now because it was meant to marginalize the palestinian authority so the palestinian authority would not be a strong partner, right? it is a vicious circle. >> it is official circle. i think israel has proven many times that, even though they are in a vicious circle, went out and the circle if there is goodwill on the other side. that's why we disengaged from gaza. it was very controversial. ariel sure on it was very controversial at that time. we had to take people out of their homes and leave gaza. >> there was also a problem -- >> there was -- >> 2 million people are not going to be part of the problem

in israel. >> if they used the 17 years to build the gazan a singapore, there would not be a problem. >> i want to be honest about why israel disengage from gaza. it was to get rid of a demographic problem. it was a smallest amount of land you can give away with the biggest number of people who you don't have to worry about. >> is that a good thing or a bad thing? >> i'm just saying -- >> they do support it or not? do you know the other side of israelis are saying to people like me? look, we listened to you and we got october 7th. when we were inside, when people lived there, when we had the army inside, we will be strong enough to defend ourselves. i said this last time i was here. every entity in the world who wanted peace with israel, we made peace. the palestinians are the most complex conflict to solve. we have the means to solve it if there was goodwill on the other side. there really isn't. you have not found one person since the beginning of the war and gaza who sits here like me and says, you know what? at the end of, this we want to live side by side.

>> i've interviewed people on the show. you can get communications into gaza. there are 2 million people there. as your brother says, your brother is a soldier. he's going into houses. your brother is going into houses where they're looking for things. there are 2 million people there. they put their pants on the way you and i do. they want pace. we have to be able to find them. >> they don't want peace right now if you look at any poll. hey don't want peacei agree witd be our goal to deradicalize that area and generate a population. >> how does that happen? >> you tell me. october 7th didn't help that much. it has to happen through hamas leaving. it can't be hamas. it can't be deradicalized by people saying, all we want is to eliminate israel. >> you agree palestinians have to find their own leaders? >> of course. >> that's the complexity. >> honestly, if you look at palestine, they've never chosen good leaders. they've never chosen a leader who said, you know what? i am willing to make concessions in the name of

palestinians. let's go to a new future together. we've had good part ministers. i want to remind you of one more thing. the war is being run by a joint cabinet. >> definitely saying that this has to be a diplomatic solution. >> i agree. we did not want this to start. we don't want people -- my brother-in-law's fighting inside. we could win this war without him inside. we could send over a ton of bombs. he would need to go in. that would maximize the number of civilian casualties. we are doing the opposite. israeli reserve soldiers are dying daily to make sure there's a minimum number of palestinians who are involved or -- >> you would argue that hasn't been overly successful? >> i argue -- >> that hardens everything. >> i argue that the world is seeing a test now of what is lucrative. is it lucrative to his people as human shields?

>> hamas is not letting them leave their house. we tell everyone that we are bombing here. we want to let you know. you have until tomorrow to go to another area. >> there's nowhere for people to go. people go to shelters and get hit. >> people don't go because hamas isn't letting them go. we are the only army that lets people know before we are coming. >> that's not true. there have been that has been happening since world war i. >> you didn't do it in mosul. you didn't do in afghanistan. >> i didn't support those worse. >> just like john kirby said -- >> john kirby has a lot of misinformation. >> i'm not sure this is happening in the united states. >> i don't remember the army that is trying, but if you honestly look, we didn't start the war. we still have hostages over there. with they did not give them back. >> you don't think there's a better way to get the hostages out at this point? you don't think that it's worth doing everything you can to get the hostages out and figure out a diplomatic solution?

>> i think it's worth everything to get the hostages out. i wear this dog tag as we were. it says my heart is in gaza. . . . . there's an 85-year-old man in gaza. we can't wait for them to come home. there isn't ten month old kid in gaza. these are war crimes. let's talk about the palestinians. if we end this war without victory because hamas has successfully used its own people as human shields, i want to remind you they have gotten millions over the years. they haven't built bombs shelters. they have not been preparing to protect people. all they have built is terror infrastructure. they don't care about the people. they are happy that they die. it's good for optics on the palestinian side. that's why they are using them as human shields. they could have told him to leave. they didn't let them leave. it's all well-documented. >> prevent there -- i know, but -- >> they initiated.

they put them in harm's way. they did it to begin with. what do you think will happen to the world if we go out of this dramatic war with a notion that if you use people as human shields we can't get to you? you will see it being done here. you will see it being done -- >> we have to discuss -- >> it will come -- >> we have to discuss the self determination of the palestinian people which we seem to be ignoring. >> maybe netanyahu, and i'm not one of his fans, he said in 2009, i understand there needs to be another palestinian entity. >> now he is not. >> it's now that he is not, -- >> he says there's no want to negotiate. >> i'm not his spokesman. he says something all israelis feel which is that none of them want to deal with us and none of them are willing to make a peaceful peace. if they were, i am telling you -- >> i think you and i agree that that is not true. bibi netanyahu is not telling

the truth about that. there are palestinians who want peaceful peace. >> i have a question. why are there 70% of people in the academic research just a month ago that support hamas? >> why are there so many people in israel who support not having a cease-fire? people support their country or in a war. the russian support the russians in the ukrainian war. that happens. america, in iraq and afghanistan, everyone supported the president. you know that happens. that doesn't mean it is the reasonable position. it just means it happens. >> all i can tell you is what my brother in law. you know what? i feel like you. we've been piece operatives all of our lives. i come from the center left of israel. i believe in the self determination rights of the palestinian people. by the way, i think we are two groups of people disputed by land. i am sure archaeologically, sociologically speaking, we were there before. it doesn't matter. there are indigenous palestinian peoples in there as well. they should have a right to self determination. we have a primary right because jews are not just a religion, they are also a people.

everyone that treats us in peace gets peace back. everyone the treatise with aggression get aggression back. we did not initiate this war. we agreed for the partition agreement in 1948. we have offered 98% of the land through a hood barack. >> the settlements in the west wing did not stop. >> you are right. >> israel has the right to come back. >> i did not agree with him. is is a vibrant democracy. it has amazing people, crazy people. i agree with some and not with others. in that tug of transparency and opposition coalition, free press and everything, people have done things that i think are wrong, okay? they are not the majority of israelis and they are not the chosen leadership of israel forever and forever. palestine is a terror organization that we have to deal with. people keep talking about our potential war crimes. they don't abide by any --

>> that's not true. my point is that the palestinian authority was undermined by this current israeli administration which empowered hamas and i have a problem. it's what we did to the mujahideen in afghanistan. we did the same thing. >> before what you said happened, we did the oslo accords. but came out of them? >> benjamin netanyahu won an election. he became the prime minister of israel for the first time in opposition to the oslow accords. >> after he was elected, he said he was going to abide -- >> i'm not sitting here making arguments in favor of hamas or terrorists. it's hard for you to make arguments in favor of netanyahu because you know what he really is. you know that he's not a guy who wants peace. >> i've opposed netanyahu all of my life. i think he's done bad things for israelis and israel. i am represented by two other cabinet members who take making decisions -- they are united. as long as benjamin netanyahu is commanding this war, which i believe is a just war, we have

no other alternative. i support him even though it's hard for me internally politically. that's right about the majority of israelis. we feel for the first time in many years honestly, truly in danger. you know as i know that if palestinians just live their life in gaza they don't feel danger. it's not that we wake people up and kidnap people all at once. as long as it is quiet, there is economic growth. there are 16,000 palestinians who come out of gaza every day. >> [inaudible] >> who is to blame for that? >> [inau dible] >> who is to blame for tthe blo. i want to say something about the blockade. the blockade is a protective blockade. it was proven in october 7th that if we lift that blockade they are all coming in. >> it's not a vibrant economy. that's all i'm saying. >> it would have been if they decided inside to let down their guns, use international money to build education

infrastructure. >> i've got it. >> it's one of the most -- >> they have schools. we found guns inside of them. >> they are schools. they are universities. people have real it agrees. you've met them. you've talked to gazans who have degrees. >> there are countries in the world that have that and it's amazing. there are countries in the world to how that at a low level. they could have had a high-level if they have dealt with that. >> you and i are never going to stop talking. we're going to continue this conversation every opportunity we get. i always appreciate it and i'm smarter for talking to you. asaf zamir is the former consulate general of israel in new york. we will keep having this conversation until there is no conversation to have on this. we will be right back. ersation to have on this we will be right back. we will be right back. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. talk to your doctor about nurtec today. ♪♪ we come from a long line of cowboys. ♪♪ when i see all of us out here on this ranch,

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headlines did not have the complete context of the story, you might have been left with the impression that claudine gay, harvard university's first black president, resigned from america's oldest institution of higher education after having been found to have plagiarized. that's neither the full story nor the real one. the real story of how claudine gay was ousted from harvard involves race, gender, money, politics, and a deliberate, very public right-wing campaign to topple her career and descend a clear message in doing so. that campaign was led by this guy, christopher ruffo, a prominent and influential

conservative activist. for years, there is explicit goal has been to eradicate critical race theory which he deliberately confuses with dei or a diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives from, quote, every institution in america, and quote. he is not shy about showing his true colors. he's telegraphed every step of his master plan along the way and his strategy has worked. in 2021, his anti crt campaign drummed up enough conservative pressure against nikole hannah-jones, the cofounder of the 16 19 project, that the university of north carolina denied her tenure. jones, by the way, had a pulitzer prize, a mcarthur genius grant, and support from the school's chancellor and faculty. no one who would held the position to which she was hired had ever before been denied tenure. that history and her accomplishments were no match for the conservative pressure cooker. hannah-jones moved on. she is now chairing the night chair of race and journalism at howard university.

christopher ruffo does not do it alone. he acknowledges the highly coordinated campaign to force claudine gay to resign from harvard was a three pronged attack. that's what he told politico's ian ward last week. quote, this was a team effort which involved three primary points of leverage. first, was the narrative leverage. it was done primarily by me, christopher burnett, and erin saberi and. secondly is the financial leverage, led by bill ackman and other harvard owners. finally, there was the political leverage, led by congresswoman elise stefanik's masterful performance with claudine gay at her hearings. when you put those three elements together, narrative, financial, and political pressure, and you squeeze hard enough, you see the results that we got today, the resignation of america's most powerful academic leader, and quote. there it is, clear as day, christopher ruffo's own words. this crew of strange bedfellows help to bring down the president of harvard not because of who she was or what she did but to advance their

own particular causes. i want to go through those causes with you. there was a target on the back of claudine gay since the war of israel and hamas triggered protests on college campuses along with a surge in anti-arab and anti-semitic violence. while these tensions exist on many university campuses, three presidents in particular, claudine gay, elizabeth mitchell of the university of pennsylvania, and sally kornbluth of m.i.t. were singled out for the response to the october 7th attack, specifically an israel palestinian tensions on campus more broadly. in december, they testify before the house of representatives in hearings which were supposed to illuminate antisemitism on campus, but in reality, those hearings where a trial. that's what republican congresswoman elise stefanik comes in. she asked gay whether, quote, calling for the genocide of jews violated harvard's rules of bullying and harassment, end quote. all three presidents said in one way or another that it would depend on the context.

this answer was widely condemned, deemed by experts to be legally correct but lacking in empathy. elizabeth mcgill resigned not long after the hearing. sally coren both of m.i.t. is still at her post. claudine gay live to fight another day at harvard, that is, this until christopher rufo dispatched the next prong in his plan. put a pin in that. i want to point out the irony of elise stefanik's political theater during that hearing. stefanik is an ardent supporter of donald trump, a man with a long history of using antisemitic tropes. he invited the antisemite kanye west and the holocaust denier nick fuentes to dine with him. he said that, among the protesters, you chanted jews will not replace us through charlottesville. there were some, quote, very fine people. he has been echoing hitler in his campaign speeches. no matter how many times you say the word antisemitism, you are the company you keep. okay, let's go back to christopher rufo. with the help of two conservative reporters, christopher burnett and anthony

submarine, he started floating accusations that she plagiarized academic work. those went from rufo's blog to the pages of conservative publications to mainstream publications like the new york times. harvard itself never accused gay of plagiarism but it did investigate the allegations and found that they are, at worst, instances of inadequate citation. they are not what the word plagiarism might make you think. claudine gay was not stealing anyone's ideas nor where she presenting other people's ideas as her own. harvard didn't conclude that any issues in her academic citations amounted to misconduct. that would normally be the end of it. here is possibly the ugliest part of this whole chapter. at americas universities, academics and speech and learning are not primary, money is. bill ackman is an academic billionaire hedge fund manager at a harvard alum. administrated calling for claudine gay's resignation and threatening to pull his donations from the university over her response to the october 7th attack.

he called on the university to release the names of students who signed a pro palestinian a statement in order to get them blacklisted from future jobs, stating not of the companies which he controls will hire a student who had signed the statement and nor should others. ackman is active on x, formerly twitter. according to the guardian, in the past month alone, he's tweeted about gay, harvard, or both more than 100 times to his 1.3 million followers. on december 7th, atlanta just a doctor gay was a diversity higher. he said in part, quote, i learn from someone with first person knowledge of the harvard president searched at the committee would not consider a candidate who didn't meet the dei office criteria. he added, shrinking the pool of candidates based on required race, gender, and or sexual orientation criteria is not the right approach to identifying the best leaders for our most prestigious universities. it's also not good for those who find themselves in a role which they would likely not have obtained were it not for a

fat finger on the scale. r ackman brought stefanik and rufo's allegations, and he says amid-ism, and ever city together in another 400 word scream on acts in which he takes aim at harvard steve movement, saying it is, quote, the root cause of antisemitism at harvard, and quote. there you have it. diversity is antisemitism. efforts to achieve diversity are antisemitism. here are some more greatest hits from akins rambling. dei is racist because reverse racism is racism even if it is against racism. having a darker skin color, a less common sexual identity, and or being a woman does not make someone necessarily abreast or disadvantaged. claudine gay should not remain as faculty at harvard because of her, quote, serious plagiarism issues. as another academic, mary oxen in, a tenured professor m.i.t. accused of plagiarism this week, business insider published two investigations in which talks meant reportedly plagiarized

parts of her 2010 doctoral dissertation m.i.t.. the allegations range from passages missing quotations for a proper citation similar to the accusations against claudine to oxman allegedly lifting full paragraph from wikipedia, which, if true, seems to be much worse than what gay is accused of doing. after business insiders first report, oxman apologize for the air since it you would ask m.i.t. to make any necessary corrections. why do we care about oxman? mary oxman is the wife of ackman who insisted that claudine gay resign over similar interactions. to his wife's infractions, bill ackman said, quote, part of what makes mary humanist ashli makes mistakes, owns up to them, and apologizes when appropriate. bill ackerman's wife had imperfect citations in her ivy league dissertation and that was a mistake. harvard's first black president who must have been i diversity higher and had some standard

had imperfect citations in her ivy league dissertation and she is now gone from the job. if you are an m.i.t. professor, watch your back. bill ackman says he's going to use his brilliance to review the work of all current m.i.t. faculty. it's not clear yet. the story of a resignation is about a lot of things, nor was it ever really about antisemitism. in a new york times op-ed, claudia gay gave a warning to america, quote, the campaign against me was about more than one university and one leader. this was merely a single skirmish in a broader war to unravel public faith in pillars of american society. she adds, it is not lost on me that i make for an ideal canvas for projecting every identity about the generational and demographic changes unfolding on american campuses, a black woman elected to lead a storied institution. institution. institution. like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat

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you about the right wing's insidious and coordinated campaign to oust harvard's first black president, claudine gay. for more on this, i'm joined by two distinct individuals who are important in this conversation, both academics ivy league universities. eddie claude jr. is the chair of the african american studies department princeton university. jelani cobb is a stafford at the new yorker but the dean of the columbia journalism school. both are msnbc political analysts. it's an important conversation. i appreciate the time you have taken.

eddie, this is a complicated issue. there are many things which are complicated about it. i just had a great conversation with asaf zamir about antisemitism which is a real issue which has to be discussed on american campuses. that's not actually what this was. this was something else. >> absolutely. let me just say i stepped down as chair. tara hunter is now the new chair of african american studies. i want to give her props. >> thank you. >> i would like to say this, though. i think you're absolutely right. the assault on claudine gay and on elizabeth mcgill and -- it's a part of this overall description of ordinary colleges and universities but more specifically only in overseas as these bastions of liberalism, these places where left-wing orchid oxy's are corrupting the minds of our children. it's at the heart of that claim that wokeism, ali, is the source of the critique of the state of israel. israel gets ran as a settler

colonial society engaged in oppression of palestinians because the students have been indoctrinated by left-wing professors who believe in wokeism. i want to suggest to you that that is simply a translation of an old argument. we have been dealing with this kind of characterization of universities and colleges since the 80s. even since the vietnam war, right? they are just changing the names, giving us a new vocabulary. this is much bigger than just claudine gay's presidency. this is much bigger than cornell. it's about a hole attack on colleges and universities across the country. >> jelani, what's your take? not only do you deal with this as -- by the way, columbia is a hotbed of this discussion about israel palestine and illiberalism. you are actually a journalism team. you have to think about not just what it is but how we actually portray it and tell the story. >> sure. i think there are a few things

going on here. there is a complication. that forum in congress was not meant to explore the nuances and complexities of free speech on campus around standards and values and those sorts of things. it was a show trial meant to humiliate and ultimately remove the three women who were called to be in that conversation. there is a complicated conversation to be had about how you balance values with academic freedom and free speech. that is not what was happening there. moreover, i think eddie can relate to this. he went to morehouse when i was at howard. we both have matriculated through our careers around the same time. we have seen time and again and our mentors, to people who prepared us to work in this arena, so time and again the way that african americans credentials and qualifications

are questioned. it doesn't matter how distinguished you are. it doesn't matter what you have achieved or what your laurels may be. the presumption is that you don't belong in this arena. we are operating in an arena where the primary criteria is your intellectual ability. we are members of a community that has been a denigrated, allegedly, stereotypically for the lack thereof. that is the problem. that's what we saw happen with claudine gay. it's the same thing that we saw happen with barack obama when they demanded his birth certificate. that's effectively what we saw happen with claudine gay over the course of these last months. >> eddie, let's talk about that. i had a great conversation with nicole jones the other night. one of the things which happens in long dissertations, mistakes happen, citation mistakes happen. universities are specific about the difference between citation

errors and plagiarism. they have a range of things that happened. harvard did investigate. harvard is an important institution. harvard said, that's not what you said. she did not take anyone's ideas as her own. the main person said he did not think that was plagiarism. bill ackman as a different problem on his hands. his wife is alleged to have done the same thing. he offered great grace to his wife. she makes mistakes. she's only human. claudine gay was not entitled to that. >> right. whatever bill hackman may say, we can pass judgment. i think it's really important for us to understand that when scholars are engaged in a research, particularly at the level of writing a book or books, we are dealing with 200, 300, sometimes 400 sources. jelani can tell you this. you make mistakes. it's part of what it means to be a human being in this regard. particularly, those of us who

work through -- before we had the software which will allow us to do the work, imagine those of us who were working on first jen apple computers or simply word processors or typewriters before that. we did not imagine how ts elliott would survive. a bad poet imitates and the great poet steals. elliott has to be thrown out. we have to understand our space and understand what is if we understand what is motivating these folks, we see it as part and parcel of this wholesale attack on this diverse nation, on the value of diversity, right? if we -- let me put it this way really quickly. all too often, we attribute good faith to these claims. when we do, we find ourselves tricked. in fact, it is bad faith which is motivating it from the beginning. >> jelani cobb, as you

mentioned, those hearings were not what they were advertised to be. there is an important conversation to discuss how universities keep people physically safe and intellectually not so safe, right? that's where we should be. there's a valid discussion to be had. as i heard any say some weeks ago on tv, we have, some people have deliberately confuse that discussion. they have confused the discussion of diversity and see our team, which most people who talk about don't know what it is, with freedom of expression and ideas. how do we on model this? >> well, i think that andy's point about good faith and bad faith is important here. for the people who rufo mentioned, their agenda was to remove claudine gay. there's no on modeling that until -- there's one other thing that i think is important to include which i have seen a few people,

brett stevens and a number of other people, make the claim about claudine gay, saying that her intellectual output was thin. she had been published in all of the top journals in her field. these definitions for what intellectual output and standards are very wily from discipline to discipline. some disciplines like economics are focused on papers where it's fine to have multiple authors and multiple people collaborating on something. other places, like history, it's more frowned upon. people are more inclined toward books over papers. it varies across fields. when you compare her within her field to people who are top scholars in her field, she stands equitably. the reason that this argument could even be made was that we are seeing the same delegitimization that we saw colin back to barack obama. that we sit goes back to everye peer that i could talk to who