i think that you have to judge that given what we've seen in politics recently as likely. weather probably benefits him more than any of the other candidates or hurts him less. >> jonathan allen, warm socks, warm boots on the way to iowa. senior nbc news national politics reporter, thank you so much for joining us. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ we have an economy that's incredible. we have an economy that's so fragile. the only reason it is running now is it is running off the fumes of what we did, what the trump administration -- it's just running off the fumes. and when there is a crash, i hope it is going to be during this next 12 months because i

don't want to be herbert hoover. >> oh, okay. donald trump hopes millions of americans lose their money from their 401(k)s and retirement savings within the next 12 months so he doesn't look bad. [ laughter ] we have a lot to get to this morning, including a key hearing today for trump's claim of presidential immunity in the federal election interference case. we're going to have expert legal analysis on that in just a moment. plus, the very latest on two major developments in the middle east. israel says it has killed a hezbollah commander in southern lebanon. it comes as the israeli military says it is shifting to a more targeted campaign inside gaza. retired four star navy admiral james stavridis will join us with more insight on both of those stories. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, january 9th. with us, we have former aide to

the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan. pulitzer prize winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson is with us here in washington. also here in washington, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay, who will be with us in just a moment. joe, you have to love the former president, again, so worried about his image. he is hoping people lose their retirements now rather than later. there were so many things wrong with what he said, so many. >> what you have to love is that he's, once again, exposed himself to show just how horrific of a public servant he would be. this is a guy that admitted on television, because he's so focused on himself, that he wants americans to hurry up and lose their jobs. he wants them to lose their savings. he wants them to lose their 401(k)s.

yes, he wants their retirement accounts to be shattered over the next 12 months. he's that desperate to be elected. now, if you talk to economists from left to right, they will tell you, this economy is stronger than it's been. it's more resilient than they ever expected it to be. this economy, you even had conservatives. you had gerard baker, no fan of joe biden, saying one of the big winners of 2023 last year was the united states economy. it is strong. gene robinson, i feel like i must go to you on this question, only because i just think you're going to be at the top of your game because your wolverines won their first national championship this century. this century. >> absolutely. >> must be very exciting. >> it is very exciting. >> very exciting. >> it is terrific. it was amazing. of course i stayed up to watch the game, and then i stayed up

to watch the presentation of the trophy. and i'm awake, right? >> okay. >> this does not happen every year, and it was a great team. it was a great game. you know, the better team won last night, so go blue. >> go blue. >> it was quite a run. katty kay, it's hard to imagine, again, people in britain, britain has its own problems, but people across the world used to look at the united states before donald trump as a really stable force. we now have in "the new york times" an article comparing brazil with the united states. actually, the brazilian people are condemning the riots at their capitol, katty. are you there? >> i am. >> yeah, she's been here the whole time. >> magic. >> that was me calling for

katty. so you have "the new york times" article comparing brazil with the united states. now, the united states used to come out on top on that comparison, but now they're talking about the reaction of the public to riots against the capitol. the brazilians have allpred predicty come out and said it's a bad thing, "we don't want our capitol overrun by rioters for a guy trying to steal the election." here we are shockingly enough, three years later, and you have a large chunk of donald trump's supporters actually supporting the riots, saying that they were -- you know, they weren't as bad as we're all saying they were, that many were peaceful protests, and that's just a lie. what are they willing to do for this guy who is hoping they lose their retirement accounts over the next 12 months and that the economy goes into a depression so he can get re-elected?

>> yeah, so he doesn't have to be hoover and it all goes into a recession or has an economy that crashes after he gets into office. that was a weird comment. >> there are so many. >> wishing economic catastrophe on the american people. could it happen just before i'm elected rather than just after i'm elected? you're right. i mean, bolsonaro kind of copied the trump playbook, and the brazilian people had a different reaction. there is a certain amount of revisionism around january 6th in the states at the moment, but not just amongst american voters. we were all there. i think every time we play it, we probably do the country a service where we remind people of what it looked like on that they and how shocked, by and large, this country was, and how shocked members of congress in the republican party were. i think that is the critical thing. it's not just the public that might be, you know -- and trump supporters that may be saying, actually, january 6th was a nice walk in the park and it was

fine. it is also those members of congress who came out the day afterwards and said this was a, you know, terrible event, as elise stefanik said, that should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. what a different tune they're singing today. >> and this past week, we saw some clips that came out of members of congress that were shouting, republicans shouting at the rioters trying to get in and kill people inside the capitol, saying they were ashamed of them. now what are they doing? now they're on the side of the rioters. they're on the side of the rioters. you know, there was a big debate, and you saw it across the papers, "washington post," "wall street journal," "new york times" this past weekend, over how should the media react to donald trump? well, the way the media should react to donald trump is to stop acting like, when he says things, it's a throwaway line. oh, it's normal.

you know, there's nothing, elise, normal about yesterday, us playing the clip. there is nothing normal about donald trump saying that abraham lincoln blew it. that abraham lincoln should have negotiated with slaveholders and associated slavery away so he could have avoided the civil war. we talked about nikki haley for a week or two when nikki haley said what nikki haley said. notice, you look through the papers, he attacked abraham lincoln. he said abraham lincoln was a warmonger. i see nothing in the newspapers about that because it's normalized. there is nothing normal about it. the bulwark wrote a column that i hope proves to be true, and i think it just may be, that donald trump is at his high water mark right now. he is waltzing through a

primary, a coronation. he won't even debate. when he gets out in the heat of the campaign, every time he opens his mouth, he says things like this, "i hope the economy crashes. i hope wall street crashes. i hope people lose their 401(k)s. i hope the economy is destroyed so i can get elected president and it doesn't happen on my watch." reporter for "the national review," a columnist, a baseball crank said a couple years ago, when americans are talking about joe biden, republicans win. when americans are talking about donald trump, democrats win. as donald trump goes into this election and he says crazier things every day, and they're getting crazier, donald trump's numbers likely will go down again. >> joe, you would hope so. you would hope that insane

rantings that sound like someone should not be in power, rather, they should be in a straitjacket and given some kind of injection, you would hope that that would not just be dismissed by a lot of voters. but, unfortunately, as we've seen, there are plenty of republican voters who are willing to look away and dismiss it just as theater, just as performance, because they are so -- again, the polarization is so strong and they're so against the other side. all that matters is defeating the other side. you look at how the electorate in this country has become so radicalized, where 2 out of 10 americans see the other side as the enemy, not just political opposition but the enemy. i worry that donald trump is winning when attention is on him, no matter how insane or inane his comments are at a

given moment. >> okay. mika scarborough, what's in the news today? >> who? >> what's he doing? okay, you can do that. by the way, when you were talking to katty, she was listening to you from another studio, sprinted in here, jumped in her seat, and answered perfectly. i thought it was acrobatic. very good. >> i think it's what we do. >> yes. >> she's the hall of fame. >> she got it. >> it's what people call brzezinski and kay. >> exactly. >> podcast, we need that podcast, "brzezinski and kay." i like that. >> i like it. >> yeah. all right. oral arguments -- >> scarski and hutch. >> great show. >> exactly. >> president trump's hearing on presidential immunity. trump is expected to attend as a three-judge appeals court panel decides if he can be charged

with election interference. there will be no camera in the courtroom, but audio of the hearing will be broadcast. the special counsel has charged trump with illegally attempting to overturn the 2020 election, culminating in the january 6th insurrection at the capitol. trump's lawyers argue any actions he took are protected by presidential immunity. they also claim any prosecution would be a form of double jeopardy, since he was already impeached and acquitted by the senate. trump's legal team is arguing the 13-count indictment against him in the fulton county georgia election interference rico could should also be dismissed, because trump apparently didn't know overturning an election was illegal. the lawyers make that -- >> wait a second. >> i know. i just -- >> gene robinson, hold on a second. >> yeah. >> hold on. >> yeah. >> this is one of those times where we don't just let you know

what fly against the wall. >> yeah. >> when donald trump says, "i did not know that calling the secretary of state of georgia and telling him to throw out 11,000 however many votes" -- or why don't we play this? this is where donald trump is demanding that the secretary of state of georgia steal the election for him. listen to this. this guy is claiming -- this guy who wants you to lose your retirement savings and your 401(k) and wants the economy to crash so he can get elected president of the united states, because he is that desperate to be elected president of the united states, that's the same guy who is so desperate to remain as president of the united states, that's the guy you're about to hear here. he calls the secretary of state of georgia and said, "steal this election for me." take a listen. >> right. >> i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break.

so look. all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated. >> there's nothing wrong, donald trump says, with lying through your teeth. finding 11,780 votes. listen, you know, i don't like to admit this, gene, but i'm a simple country lawyer, all right? just a simple country lawyer. >> well. >> come on. >> i fell off a turnip truck and landed in front of congress. i served in congress for a few years. let me tell you, even as a simple country lawyer, me and the thousands and thousands of people who are elected every two years to serve in congress, it seems like thousands, everybody there would know, that's stealing an election.

that is illegal. >> yeah. you know, i grew up in a town where there were turnip trucks where i grew up, too. >> yeah. >> still, and still, anybody, the driver of the turnip truck, you know, the people who loaded the turnips and unloaded them, they all knew that stealing an election was illegal. everybody knows that. what a ridiculous claim. what a ridiculous filing. again, in a series, in a blizzard ridiculous, frivolous legalilings that the former president has made within a hailstorm of ridiculous, offensive, and just crazy comments that he's making. and you are right that we cannot become inured to any of this.

it is not normal and it is completely out of bounds with the way our democracy or any democracy ought to work. >> yeah. let's bring in right now former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg, a man who, trust me, did not just fall off a turnip truck yesterday and wind up inside the studios of 30 rock like me. chuck, we're lafrlaughing abouts defense, and i think for valid reasons, but why don't you take us through it legally. any chance that donald trump is going to prevail on that point or any of these points that mika read? >> you know, joe, you're laughing about it because it is laughable. i mean, defense attorneys can write what they want. they can file what they want. it doesn't really matter because, at the end of the day, assuming this case goes to trial in georgia, there's going to be 12 men and women in the jury box who are going to decide what they think of this defense. now, you know, there's -- it's clear ignorance of the law is not a defense, but more than

that, he tried to steal an election. he did it in a number of ways, by submitting slates of fake electors, by putting pressure on local officials, by trying to get vice president pence on that awful day in january to halt the vote and to substitute his lectors for the genuine electors. a jury will see that. a jury will hear that. they'll see the evidence. they'll hear from the witnesses. it's laughable. we can laugh about it. at the end of the day, in a serious place, in a court of law, a jury will decide, and they're not going to buy it. as you and eugene have talked about, they didn't just fall off a turnip truck. >> this seems straightforward. today, donald trump is going to go in and he's probably not going to get an outcome that is to his liking or his defense attorneys. do you think that's probably going to happen, or what do you think is the best-case scenario for donald trump today? >> i think that's right, elise.

that's a different case. this is an oral argument in the d.c. circuit court of appeals. mr. trump filed a motion to dismiss the indictment against him because he claimed two things. one, that he is immune from prosecution as the former president. the answer to that legally is, no, nonsense. you're not. the second claim that he brought is that double jeopardy precludes him being charged with these crimes. again, the answer is no, wrong. double jeopardy -- that's not double jeopardy, and that's not going to work to his favor. maybe i'm bias, elise, maybe i come at this from a different vantage point because i was a former federal prosecutor, but i think these arguments that advanced in the d.c. circuit to dismiss the indictment are frivolous. i think he loses unanimously and quickly. >> chuck, if he loses the double jeopardy argument, he loses the "sorry, i didn't know it was a

crime" argument, is the biggest potential impact that it delays that march start date of the d.c. trial? >> right. that's a great question, katty. the trial we're talking about, the federal case in washington, d.c., is slated for trial on march 4th. i think that that trial date is endangered. i'm not sure it is doomed. let me explain that. if the court of appeals can quickly decide this case, finding that he is indeed not immune from prosecution, finding indeed that double jeopardy does not preclude this prosecution, the issue, the ruling is mandated quickly. the supreme court refuses to hear the case? they don't have to, of course. there is a chance it gets back on track in the district court, the trial court in the district of columbia. will it be march 4th? can it be that quickly? i don't know. i hope so.

but if things break the way i think they're going to break, katty, i believe this case can be tried before the election. in fact, way before the election. >> wait, chuck, there is more. a federal appeals court has denied donald trump's request to consider his presidential immunity claim in the defamation lawsuit filed by e. jean carroll. carroll alleges the former president sexually abused her in a department store in the '90s. trump denies the allegation. but in may, a jury deemed him liable and awarded carroll $5 million in damages. it's important to point out the judge actually considered it rape. now, a second trial is pending in which jurors will decide whether carroll should be awarded more money for the comments trump made after that verdict, when he continued to defame her, as well as the statements he made shortly after she came forward with her allegation in 2019, when trump was allegedly president.

a judge already ruled trump is liable for defamation. the former president's lawyers have been arguing he has legal protection from lawsuits pertaining to his actions while he was in office. an appeals court initially rejected that claim last month, and now so has the second u.s. circuit court of appeals. trump has the option to take the case to the supreme court. the defamation trial is scheduled to begin on january 16th. so, chuck, what are the options here? again, e. jean carroll had no choice but he defamed her again to sue again. >> that's right. she was right to sue the first thing, and she was right to sue the second time. they were right to award her the damages, mika. what mr. trump's lawyers are arguing, in essence, is he should be immune from civil liability for defaming ms. carroll.

they're sort of tethering that to a 1982 supreme court case, nixon versus fitzgerald. that case stands for the proposition that a president, if he is acting in his official capacity -- really important distinction -- is immune from civil lawsuits. clearly, defaming ms. carroll and all the other awful things he did to ms. carroll cannot possibly be within the definition of official conduct. presidents don't get to do -- anyone else, for that matter, doesn't get to behave that way and hide behind immunity. it's simply that, mika. it's not official conduct, therefore, he is not immune from liability. therefore, she can proceed against him and win her judgment and hopefully collect on it. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you so much for coming in this morning. we appreciate it. there's so much going on. we will see you again soon. still ahead on "morning joe," secretary of state antony blinken is in israel this morning in his latest diplomatic

push to prevent a wider conflict in the middle east. we'll have an update on the war against hamas, as the israeli military announces a shift to a new, more targeted approach in gaza. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ )

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♪♪ 26 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." a beautiful shot of the capitol on this, what is it, tuesday morning? >> tuesday. >> it's totally tuesday. >> okay. israel is taking responsibility for a strike that killed a hezbollah commander. the country's foreign minister took credit for the attack in southern lebanon yesterday in a televised interview. the commander was a member of hezbollah's governing board and was related by marriage to the militant's leader. his death is the latest sign of

unting tensions between israel and hezbollah. yesterday, israeli officials warned they're prepared to escalate military operations in lebanon in order to contain the threat from across the border. the commander's death comes a week after a suspected israeli air strike killed a senior hamas official in beirut. hezbollah has vowed to retaliate for that attack. meanwhile, the secretary of state, antony blinken, is now in israel meeting with officials about the war in gaza and efforts to prevent a wider conflict. his visit comes just a day after the israeli military announced it is shifting to a new phase of combat. the idf says it is moving away from a large-scale ground and air campaign to a more targeted approach that includes fewer troops in gaza. this is something the biden administration has been pushing for. u.s. officials say they expect the israeli military to rely on

smaller groups of elite forces who will focus on eliminating hamas leaders and rescuing hostages. the idf says it has already begun this new phase in northern gaza. officials tell the u.s., while they hope to complete the transition by the end of the month, that could change if they discover new threats or encounter a stiffer hamas resistance. joe? >> let's bring in former supreme allied commander of nato, four star navy admiral james stavridis. honor to have you with us. we look at the headlines about the hezbollah senior commander who has been killed. also the lead story here in "the new york times." we'll get back to the other lead story in "the new york times" in a second about the new phase of the israel war, but not to be too crude about this, but we seem to be, over the last week or so, at a phase where the hunters have become the hunted.

you have the hamas leader killed. you have a hezbollah leader killed. you have isis going after leaders in iran. you have houthis that are subject to more attacks. now, i understand and i hear from, i guess they would be called neocons in the past, i'm not sure, but i hear criticism of biden. that we should support the ukrainians marching straight to moscow. we should support the absolute annihilation of every country in the middle east. i exaggerate only slightly. but biden has taken a measured approach. most people not on the far right would say he's done an extraordinary job of this. there's no doubt, there is now -- we're finally starting to see in a more targeted way the ramifications of what hamas did,

and they're starting to feel real pressure. >> indeed. i think, joe, this all can be kind of confusing, hamas and hezbollah and houthis. what we need to remember is there's kind of a one-word summary, and that word would be "iran." all of these groups are trained, organized, equipped, directed from tehran. so it is a good thing to watch the israelis. i think in a relatively measured way. you know, they could have started dropping huge bombs on beirut. this was a very targeted para strike up north. took out one hamas leader, one hezbollah leader. it's measured. in terms of the houthis, these are the iranian pirates you and i have talked about in the red sea, i think the biden administration is working their way up the ladder of escalation.

in a way, it is sending a signal through the houthi pirates to tehran. that's what has to continue here is a measured approach. >> well, admiral, what you just said about that measured approach, sort of an increase of intensity of attacks, it's the same thing joe biden did in ukraine, what he continues to do in ukraine. you know, you have people on the sidelines saying, "why doesn't he give them this? why doesn't he give them that?" he has. he has. it's measured, though. it is step by step by step. because, again, i'm sorry, when you're dealing with a country like russia that has more nuclear weapons than anybody else, no sudden movements when you're dealing with what we're dealing with in the middle east and iran and the possibility of a massive regional war.

no sudden movements. >> yeah. >> talk about how joe biden has -- and, criticize him. if we want to criticize him, we'll talk about afghanistan. but it seems to me, in these cases, he's done what's required, what a conservative with a small "c" would be calling for. >> indeed. here's the way to think about it: life is never, almost never, an on and off switch. life, so often, is a dimmer on the wall in your dining room. you have to dial it in. so i think in ukraine, for example, they started with stingers and javelins. they kind of upped the ante to patriot air defenses. they moved up that ladder with the atacms, missiles. they're dialing. that is the process they're undertaking in the middle east.

dial it up, encourage the israelis to use less brute force, more specific, targeted special forces. think of it as a restat. now, we can argue back and forth as to whether they should have spun the dial faster and gotten f-16s to ukraine, but those are tactical decisions. the strategic way in which the administration has approached both ukraine and the middle east is balanced and sensible. >> and it continues putting pressure. you know, i love reading these stories about how russia is so powerful and russia has weathered the storm and russia is this, because the end of the year, there are a lot of end of the year stories. russia was, oh, they've handled the sanctions wonderfully. their economy is doing better than ever. they're this, they're that. you know, some of us that are older remember stories from '85,

'86, '87 about the powerful soviet empire. we remember a book. it's one of my favorite books. i don't mean to be critical, but "the rise and fall of the great empires," paul kennedy talking -- >> kennedy. >> yeah, kennedy talking about the rise and fall of the united states. they were overextended. he missed the fact that the soviet union would collapse in two, three years. when i hear this now about russia, i said, i'm going, "i've heard this before, and it didn't end well for the russians." let's go to the lead story in "the new york times," admiral. it talks about israel entering a new phase of the war. finally doing what the biden administration, what our secretary of state, antony blinken, and so many others, what jake sullivan, so many other members of the biden administration have been pushing israel to do. that is to take a more targeted approach to their campaign and

their hunting down of hamas terrorists and israeli and american hostages. >> it's a good moment as follows. they've had -- the israelis have had significant success in the north. now, they are ramping down from the big, blockbuster bombs. they are using their special forces, and they are using their engineers, joe, to go after that tunnel complex. that's the center of gravity in the north. that's a good phase in the campaign for the israelis. in the south, different campaign. they're still fighting very hard, street to street, going after the leadership of hamas. in both areas, they are desperately searching for the hostages, hoping against hope they can conduct some kind of a rescue operation. the good news, such as it is, is that that two-pronged campaign in the north and the south plays

into the strengths of the israelis. they're very good at special forces. very good at the ability to do those kind of fine engineering tasks, to take out that center of gravity, that tunnel complex in the north. i think you're going to see them conversely slowing down, it'll appear to the outside world, but maeve moving effectively inside gaza. >> clearly, there was so much going on in the world, and there's no break over the holidays, so to speak. but the news of general loyal austin, or secretary austin just being out of touch, how dangerous do you think that was for america's national security readiness? >> well, let's start by simply saying, i've known lloyd austin for decades. he's roughly a contemorary of mine, a couple years older perhaps, west point graduate. i won't hold that against him.

but a fine person. we all ought to be hoping for his quick recovery and back into the saddle. as joe and i talked about a moment ago, he's been a very steady pair of hands for the department. in terms of that episode, you know, elise, on a scale that kind of runs from, you know, we ought to be looking for his resignation, my view, absolutely not, but at the other end, it's no big deal, you know, the deputy took over, this one is kind of in the middle. i spent two years as the senior military assistant, effectively the military chief of staff to secretary of defense don rumsfeld. i just can't imagine a moment, let alone days, in which the white house didn't know where the secretary of defense was. as i was walking in here, elise, the pentagon announced a 30-day review of what happened. that needs to occur. i'll close with this.

lloyd austin has been very forthright, saying, "i take responsibility for this." frankly, i'm looking at his senior staff, what happened there? look, he had this procedure. he was in a great deal of pain. it's the job of his team to make sure the continuity exists. kind of worrisome. let's see what comes out of this study. >> admiral, i want to take you back to israel-gaza for a second. and ask you, when and how do you see some relief for civilians in gaza? it's effectively been a couple million people who have been pushed kind of south of khan yunis, all the way to rafah in appalling conditions. still under fire. when and how do you see that situation being relieved? >> not in days, not in weeks,

but i think we can measure it in months. that is an entirely unsatisfactory answer. the israelis need to understand that their responsibilities under the laws of war are quite clear here, to protect these civilian populations. i think their campaign has been insufficiently attentive to that. gene, i think it is going to be at least two more months of hard combat in the south. at that point, we hit the discussion of what comes next. that could be some combination of the palestinian authority, the arab league, local groups, the israelis themselves, entirely unclear. as the old saw goes, it is easy to get into a war, it's hard to get out of one. >> all right. retired four star admiral james stavridis, thank you very much for your insight this morning. up next on "morning joe,"

former first lady michelle obama says she is terrified about the potential outcome of the 2024 election. we'll play for you her new remarks, and we'll talk about what democrats can do about it. plus, we'll let gene bask in the glory of his wolverine win. "morning joe" will be right back. ecare. -that's cool. - yeah. i have all my customers check the singlecare price first. good job. whenever my customers ask me if there's a cheaper price on their meds. i always tell them about singlecare. you just search your prescription, find the best price and show your coupon, in the app, to the pharmacist. i found a cheaper price with singlecare! i know. download the singlecare app free today.

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hail, hail, michigan. they are the champions of college football 2023. >> hail to the victors. top ranked university of michigan is college football's national champion after beating number two washington in last night's title game. best-selling author and espn commentator paul finebaum. we'll talk about the coach who was banned twice this season from being on the sidelines in a little bit. first, i must say, i think it is a southern thing. i don't have a great deal of respect for most big ten teams. occasionally ohio state has a really good team that can compete with s.e.c. teams. this michigan team by the end won me over. last night, even more so than the alabama game, which i will forever think we should have won, but this game last night showed, this is a heck of a team, top to bottom. >> joe, i agree.

it's easy to joke about how, until last night, michigan had won 1 1/2 national championships in the last 70 years. seems like alabama and georgia just went through a drive-through somewhere and picked up another one. but it was real. for all the criticism, and i've been at the tip of that spear for the last couple of months, it was a dominating performance. this was not last year with tcu. washington really was an excellent football team. michael penix, the quarterback, had a rough night. its defense kept them in the game. they probably shouldn't have been in the game as long as they were. to jim harbaugh's credit, he withstood all types of criticism and whiplash. at the end, he was the one smiling. the questions today are not so much whether he will win another one, it is where he'll go next. we'll get to that, i'm sure, in a second. >> gene robinson, the interesting thing, and, you

know, my knock on big ten teams, and i think most s.e.c. fans have looked at big ten teams as being these slow, hulking players. i mean, i've been to big ten games and said, "my god, this is like high school football." that michigan team last night blew away all of those preconceived notions over the past 30 years. >> yeah. >> the michigan team last night looked like the michigan teams i grew up with as a kid in the '70s, when a guy named bo was their head coach. >> yeah. >> they looked like a powerful, fast, i mean, put together, great football team. >> yeah. that's what they were. i mean, these were all -- remember, these are five-star recruits that harbaugh brought to michigan. he's been building this program for years.

the third year in a row he made the college football playoff. the first year, of course, that he broke through. this is a really, really balanced team with a powerful running game, a very good passing game, a clever and mobile quarterback in j.j. mccarthy. and they dominated the line of scrimmage. the old-fashioned football, that's what they did to alabama, which a lot of people thought they could not do to an s.e.c. powerhouse like alabama. that's what they did against washington. it's what they did all year. it's what they did against ohio state. in a sense, michigan is a bit late to this game. ohio state has been at that s.e.c. level for a while. it took michigan a while to catch back up, but now, of course, when you talk about big ten football, starting next year, you'll be including

washington. you'll be including these west coast teams. i think we're going to have to expand the meaning of that term. but it was a great night for wolverines and their fans. >> it was a great night. of course, alabama forgot how to block in the first half of their game against michigan. still only three points behind at halftime and ahead seven points into the fourth quarter. we're not going to go pack and replay that game. too painful. paul, too painful. paul, i do not want -- and were i a michigan fan, i'd want to focus on the kids. i want to focus on what a great team they are. i really do, the morning after, i hate to bring this up, but we need to -- i think we need to bring it up. you know, if there weren't so many cutaway shots to harbaugh, i could focus on the kids on the field.

this is a guy that was suspended twice, and the cheating scandal was terrible. not only was it terrible, he lied about it. there were -- if you talk to other big ten coaches, if you talked to other big ten officials, they thought michigan got away with just -- well, got away with -- i don't want to say -- well, they should have been banned from bowl games or they should have had wins taken away from them. what they did was deplorable, then they got caught lying about it. so what is the legacy of harbaugh even with this extraordinary win last night? >> joe, it's going to be mentioned, but here's the real issue. everything you've said is accurate, and coaches have texted me and told me all these things that you have just

regurgitated. the problem with it sticking is, they did what they had to do on the field. the sign stealing didn't help them last night or against alabama. quite frankly, beating alabama was very significant. had they beaten someone else last week, it might not have had the same resonance, but they beat the biggest and the baddest of all. the biggest name in college football. >> yeah. >> the greatest coach. i think it will subside. i think the main reason it will subside, joe, is because there's so much going on right now in college athletics. there's so much under the table. players are getting $400,000 to sign, and it's not against the rules. it's hard to look at anything being untoward and making it stick today. >> paul, it is insane, the chaos that is spreading across college football. we really saw it during the bowl games. they need to get their act together and change some dates on when the kids transfer.

they need to wait until february or so to get us through the bowl games, through all the bowl games. finally, and this is just a point of personal privilege here, i'm sorry, we haven't talked about the alabama game. the alabama-michigan game. can i really quickly just -- you know, jack had never been to an alabama game. what a horrible father i was. he reminded me that at the beginning of the season. we got to go. we carved out time. we got to go to the championship in atlanta. i will tell you, the s.e.c. championship in atlanta, even though it was in georgia, paul, alabama fans were louder. the team was more fired up. they wanted it more. you could just tell, they wanted it more. there was a bizarre flatness at the rose bowl. michigan fans were, as you know, you were there, i was there, they were cheering louder. michigan team seemed to want it

more. we still should have won. we were ahead in the fourth quarter. but i'm telling you, it was like we were playing an ann arbor. it was a reverse of what happened at the s.e.c. championship. there was a strange flatness to that alabama team. can you give us some insights on what happened there? >> joe, alabama expected the win. it's a combination of no respect for the big ten and no respect for michigan. it happened nine years ago. remember being in new orleans for the ohio state game, the first year of the playoffs? >> oh, yeah. >> i couldn't find any alabama fans. i finally found one and said, "where is everybody?" he said, "they skipped this game. they're going to dallas for the championship." that's how alabama rolled. i texted a friend of mine on the alabama staff after the game, just checking in. he said, "we were better than them." just like you said. that is the mentality. by the way, realize alabama didn't win last night because they weren't there, but that's how alabama has rolled for, i

don't know, 60 or 70 years, hasn't it? >> yeah. i mean, they've got six national championships. they won six under saban. this was a team -- and i have to admit, i have to admit, i was sitting in the stands before the game and the week leading up going, how does michigan beat us? i don't know how they beat us. you could sense that the alabama team in the first half was thinking the same thing. they didn't wake up until the third quarter. anyway, all right, paul. >> yeah. >> i guess i have to ask, nick saban, everybody says he is going to retire. he is going to hang out in florida and golf. i don't know how nick saban does that. it doesn't seem like that's in his makeup. what do you think? >> a week ago i thought, if he beat michigan and won the national championship, he would walk away because it was such a perfect ending. so much has changed in eight days, joe. he was out recruiting this

weekend. i think the rest of college football is stuck with nick saban for a while. >> yeah. >> the early predictions are already out for next year. guess who the top two teams are in everybody's poll? georgia and alabama. >> yeah. i will say, the schedule next year is extraordinary. as gene was saying, the conferences are moving together. i know this will sound strange for michigan fans, that was a particularly galling loss for alabama last week. you're exactly right. nick saban, if he'd won, probably be golfing and we'd be trying to figure out who the next coach is. he is not going to go out on that losing note, is he? >> i don't think so. and i know a lot of people are watching going, what's wrong with these alabama people here? i didn't go there, but my wife is an alabama fan. joe, we know what you are. that's what really separates alabama from the rest. i think it also is what makes michigan winning so unique.

michigan has an air, too. they walked around the last 30 years like college football revolves around them. last night, they finally had something to back it up. >> they really did. paul finebaum, thank you so much. gene, alex is going to yell at me, but i have to give you the last word. we've been talking about alabama because, well, it's my show. but that michigan team, i want to repeat this. i didn't think michigan had a shot of winning. i thought it was ridiculous. i think, like, 70% of the people who bet bet on alabama. that's what i was hearing. this was an extraordinary -- they were a complete team. they were a beautiful football team to watch. >> yeah. nothing lasts forever. even alabama's dominance in college football. it is a great team. alabama will be back. but so will michigan. harbaugh has built a really good

team there, really good program. they're going to be competitive with the best of the s.e.c. when you're, you know, figuring out your rankings for next year, go ahead, put georgia and alabama up there. but, you know, mess around and find out. >> here we go! >> all right. >> as gene said, as a michigan fan, it's not enough that the dogs win. the cats have to lose. >> exactly. >> that was a "new yorker" magazine article which explains how michigan fans think. well, the dogs won last night, and all the cats lost. congratulations, gene. >> there ya go. >> a great team and a great season. >> next year, we have the expanded playoffs, so a lot to look forward to there. >> yeah. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll bring you the big moments from president biden's speech yesterday in south carolina, and we'll discuss his remarks with a national co-chair

for the president's re-election campaign, senator chris coons. plus, democratic governor of kentucky, andy beshear joins the conversation. we just launched a pac to support democrats in red and purple states. "morning joe" is coming right back. immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) are you still struggling with your bra? it's time for you to try knix. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com

what's going to happen in this next election? i'm terrified about what could possibly happen. because our leaders matter. who we select, who speaks for us, who holds that bully pulpit, it affects us in ways that sometimes i think people take for granted. you know, the fact that people think that government, eh, you know, does it really even do anything? i'm like, oh, my god, does government do everything for us. we cannot take this democracy for granted. sometimes i worry that we do. those are the things that keep me up. >> that's former first lady

michelle obama, who says the possible results of the 2024 election keep her up at night. mika, let me ask you, how important is it that michelle obama stays engaged from now through the election? having her voice, her influential voice out there, same with barack obama. how important is it that they keep that message out there as two of the most popular people, if not the two most popular people in the democratic party. >> you just gave the reason. they're incredibly popular. they draw huge crowds. michelle obama has her own incredible following, and the two of them can turn out others. you know, a lot of people are like, joe biden needs to do this, joe biden needs to do that. everybody needs to get on it. i hope that is not the last time we see michelle obama. i hope we see her on the

campaign trail. i hope we see former president obama. i hope we see them galvanizing other big names, people with big follow followings, to get involved in this election. as it is, the election of a lifetime. eugene, you have a piece in "the washington post" entitled, "biden must elevate these democratic leaders if he wants to win." gene, go. >> this is kind of an all-hands situation. >> all hands on deck. >> you know, i wrote about others out there in the country, people like stacey abrams, julian castro, jaime harrison, who runs the dnc. >> everybody. >> i want to hear more -- >> mayors, governors. >> mayors, governors, the tennessee two, you know. >> yes. >> i want to hear more from all these people. i want their voices raised and elevated by the biden campaign

and by the party apparatus. they need to be out there spreading that gospel. i think it's highly significant, actually, that michelle obama came out and talked about politics and the election this early in that explicit a way. >> right. >> it's no secret, she has not always loved politics. she has not always loved the, you know, the fray. she believes it is important enough to get involved and get out there this early i think is significant, and i think it is a hopeful sign for the democratic party. >> i know michelle obama doesn't love politics and doesn't love it all. i get that. neither, quite frankly, does first lady dr. jill biden, who came into this whole thing decades ago very renascently. at this point, it is an -- it's not about us. it's not about them. it's about the democracy.

joe, coming up in the show, by the way, we have governor andy beshear, talking about trying to galvanize -- there he is standing by right now -- democrats in red states or anybody at this point who cares about the constitution. >> well, and american democracy, as michelle obama brought up, she's talking about how precious american democracy is and how this is keeping her up at night. michelle obama is -- >> she would know. >> -- one of the people that can make the choice. katty, looking at the front page of "the new york times," they do a deep dive on iowa. they talk about how iowa in 2012 was blue, deep blue, and how it's now turned deep red. at least purple. talked about barack obama winning in iowa. you know, we talk with rev, reverend al, a good bit about

the fact that joe biden is not doing as well with black voters, with people of color, as he should be. when you hear michelle obama or barack obama, you know, first thought, of course, always jumps to, man, they can really help energize and inspire the most important vote in the democratic party. that is the most loyal vote, and that is getting black voters to the polls to save democracy again, as they did in 2020. but i look at states like iowa, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, that barack obama won, and it's not just about black voters. the importance of the obamas getting out, talking to all voters in swing states, it seems to me, especially if you look at their track record, it'd be extraordinarily helpful. >> yeah. i mean, it was interesting reading that piece. one of the reasons that iowa has changed is you've had

college-educated iowans leaving the state. college-educated americans, this is the big, new fault line in america, right? college-educated americans tend to vote more democratic, and conservatives without a college degree stayed behind in the state. i don't know there is much that even the obamas could do today to flip iowa. it is a different state from what it was. certainly, in terms of translating legislative victories, everything the biden administration has achieved, which has been considerable, into actual votes, whether it is with black voters or with independent voters, that is something that the master communicator, barack obama, certainly should be able to help with. >> president biden was in south carolina yesterday where he gave a speech at mother emanuel church in charlton, the site of a mass shooting where nine black parishioners' lives were taken

during a bible study. he focused his remarks around the threat of white supremacy, as well as calling out former president trump for his actions on january 6th. >> the word of god was pierced by bullets and hate and rage, propelled by not just gun powder but by a poison. a poison that for too long has haunted this nation. what is that poison? white supremacy. it is a poison. throughout our history, it's ripped this nation apart. this has no place in america. not today, tomorrow, or ever. we saw something on january 6th we'd never seen before, even during the civil war. insurrectionists waving confederate flags inside the halls of congress, built by enslaved americans. a mob attacked and called black officers, black veterans defending the nation, those vile

of racist names. yet, an extreme movement of america, the maga republicans, led by defeated president, is trying to steal history now. they try to steal an election, now they're trying to steal history. telling us that violent mob was, and i quote, a peaceful protest. that that insurrectionist, the insurrectionists were, in his words, patriots. that there was, quote, a lot of love that day. in fact, the rest of the nation and the world saw a lot of hate and violence. for hours, the defeated former president sat in the oval office and did nothing. nothing, absolutely nothing. his actions were among the worst derelictions of duty by any president in american history. losers are taught to concede when they lose. he's a loser. >> you know, mika, observers who have been critical of joe biden

in the past, over the past several years politically, on the democratic side, are stepping up and saying his speech on friday and his speech yesterday were two of the best speeches he's given since being president of the united states. he certainly seems engaged, and he certainly seems to understand the stakes. he's on the campaign trail now saying what they are. >> joining us now, democratic senator chris coons of delaware. he is national co-chair of president biden's re-election campaign. i want to build on president biden's point. not only were they trying to change the truth about january 6th, but you have now trump's followers. i don't know what to call them, like back benchers in congress, but they're in congress. like elise stefanik using the word "january 6th hostages" for

those who were tried and convicted for taking part in an insurrection and busting down the doors and windows of our capitol and running around in there, beating up cops and trying to kill people and looking for nancy pelosi and mike pence. you know the story. they're in jail now. but she, too, now using trump's words, calling them hostages, which is especially sick right now given world events. >> president biden gave a forceful speech in valley forge, in pennsylvania, for the anniversary of january 6th and followed it up with the speech we just heard clips from at mother emanuel ame. he is using former president trump's own words to draw that sharp contract. he makes it clear, president trump is trying to rewrite history, trying to redescribe what happened on january 6th, and that others in congress are moving with him to call those properly convicted of beating and attacking policemen, of

smashing their way into the capitol, of riot and insurrection, calling them hostages, suggesting they are innocent and being held against their will and improperly. that's just one small way of showing how sharp and clear the divide is between those who want to restore president trump to the presidency and those of us who want to make sure that democracy continues in this country with the re-election of joe biden. >> can you talk about how different this election is than others? this is not democrat versus republican. this is something different. what is it? >> part of why president biden talks about maga republicans as opposed to just republicans is to draw that distinction, is to make it clear that the republicans that i've worked with and he's worked with for many years, folks who respect the rule of law, who think that those who smash their way into the capitol should be tried, are really distinct from those who think that, frankly, up is down, down is up, and political violence is acceptable. >> who cares, yeah. >> and the only thing that matters is the restoration of

trump. i'm concerned about what we see on the ground in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, and the tone and tenor, both of the debate here in congress and of what's happening on the campaign trail. one thing just to encourage you, gene, there were dozens of us, state and local elected officials from all over the country, who joined president biden in that speech in pennsylvania. governor, lieutenant governor, mayors, county commissioners. we had a great convening and rally beforehand, then went forth from there to do exactly the kind of local work that michelle obama is also making a critical difference in now. >> so let's talk for a minute then about pennsylvania. obviously, a swing state, a key state. do you share the concern that congressman jim clyburn from my state of south carolina expressed on sunday, that the biden message is not breaking

through, that it is not breaking through all of the noise in the way that it should now? just from what you see in pennsylvania or your home state of delaware. >> yes, demonstrably, poll after poll shows that the broadly great economic news and the significant accomplishments of the first few years of the biden administration hasn't really broken through. i think congressman clyburn was talking about, specifically, black americans, but younger americans, working class americans aren't quite feeling it. i'll say this, i'd rather be in our place, where the polls are soft but the underlying economics are really strong and getting stronger, than in the reverse, where the president is enjoying a bump in the polls but, wow, are the underlying economics heading in a bad direction. we have record numbers of new manufacturing jobs, of economic growth, of low unemployment, of wage growth. and we're beginning to see the actual fruits of the bipartisan work in congress, in new job

construction, new roads. the price of insulin is now capped at $35 a month, particularly poignant for congressman clyburn, his late wife having died of diabetes. he, himself, was saying, "i know how much insulin used to cost." we're going to see more and more things like that, where average americans are feeling it and seeing it. >> katty, i would think michelle obama could also be incredibly helpful on tying the very crucial issue of abortion health care to donald trump, who, by the way, put the people in place who overturned roe. >> there has been some reporting that some people around the president's team have said, maybe if joe biden went out and used that word more, talked about abortion more frankly, that'd also be helpful, as well. >> i think so. >> we have seen kamala harris take this up. it is useful to have these high-profile female surrogates raising this issue. >> yes. >> listening to you, senator, what you're saying, is there a sort of feeling in the campaign that, actually, things will move your way, that, actually, in a sense, you have to be in a kind of waiting pattern?

>> no one is counting on it. >> is that a risky strategy? yeah, you may be right, the economic indicators suggest that by next spring/summer, we'll be in a much stronger position and people will be feeling those material improvements in their daily lives. is that the hope? >> hope is not a strategy. >> right. >> the strategy is to get out, get working, and get engaged. >> yeah. >> look, our president has 50 years of seasoning and experience in handling complex world issues. the world is on fire. his time is demanded by engaging with israel-gaza, engaging with the fight in ukraine against russian aggression, and many other things i could mention. i'm glad he's now really turning to focus on the campaign, that we're broadening the number and reach of the campaign co-chairs and the campaign leadership. in my hometown of wilmington, the number of folks hired now and in their seats and working hard to support a nationwide network on the campaign is growing rapidly. they've had great fundraising, and i think we're now going to

see a fully engaged campaign effort. >> all right. i have two other questions for you about current events. we still don't have a lot of answers as to why defense secretary lloyd austin was sort of off the grid and nobody knew about it, some sort of hospital procedure. there are those calling for his resignation. should lloyd austin step down? >> i have confidence in secretary austin. the administration has announced there will be a thorough review of what happened here, how it happened. simultaneously, you had three critical people, the secretary of defense, his chief of staff, the deputy secretary not coordinating, not communicating to the white house. i'll wait for the result of that review of what happened. secretary austin has said he takes full responsibility. but this is a critical issue that needs to be clarified and brought forward. >> right. is there -- are you thinking there might be something that explains -- i mean, it still happened. >> i don't know. i don't know yet. that's why i think having that

review then will bring forward, how did this happen? what was the process? >> one more question about that. he is in the chain of command. >> right. >> absolutely. >> i don't know what -- like, what would be the reason -- >> he is in the line of succession to the president. he's in both. >> right. so was it chain of command? was the integrity of the chain of command maintained throughout this illness or do we know? >> i don't know. there are people who know. i think congress and the american people need to know. >> finally, on the border talks, how are things going? obviously, ukraine is in dire need of help. how much longer is this going to go? >> we had hoped to come back yesterday and be briefed by senators langford, murphy, and kyrsten sinema that they reached a deal. senators langford and murphy say they are not there. there is a critical, remaining issue not resolved. my core concern, as you raised, is we sent our last amount of

money to support the ukrainian budget. the first responders who come when russian missiles strike and take out a power substation. we've sent the last tranche of military equipment. 50 other countries are supporting ukraine at the level greater in combination than we are. but if we stop, if we fall back, if we fail, i think we will soon see some of our partners around the world also step back. this is critical. in the depths of winter, as the ukrainians continue to fight bravely and, in many cases, die for their nation, we should not step back from supporting ukraine. there's a little bit more of hard work to be done to get us to a deal, but i'm optimistic it'll happen next week. >> joe. >> which, of course, great news for ukraine. great news for our friends in israel who are begging for support, who need the support as we worry about the hostages and

the hunting down of terrorists. i do want to talk about the southern border, which is the part of this that, again, you talked about the negotiations going on. yesterday, "the wall street journal" wrote an editorial basically pleading with republicans. i'm sure you read it, pleading with republicans to do a border deal, to not be cynical and just deny the deal because they want to have the issue. "the wall street journal" editorial page said, come on, republicans, do the deal for the southern border. that is that side of the ledger. i am curious, is there a growing sense in the democratic party that the chaos at the southern border, that the humanitarian crisis at the southern border, that the anarchy at the southern border, it's not progressive,

it's not progressive to allow this situation to continue, and there has to be order? there has to be a strengthening at the southern border. forgive me for going on, but it is important that viewers understand begging for order at southern border. it is democratic governors in swing states begging for order at the border. there are progressive senators from swing states like pennsylvania that are talking about the need for order at the southern border. do most democrats understand, does the white house understand, there has to be dramatic action in stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into this country? >> yes. joe, that view, broadly, is shared, that we need an immigration system that is safe, that is humane, and that is legal. the numbers of folks who are presenting at the southern border seeking asylum has

motivated our president, both in his first state of the union, to call on congress to legislatively address this and give him the powers he needs, and in the supplemental package he asked for months ago, to ask for billions of dollars to strengthen border security. many of us in the democratic party want to make sure we aren't helping fund traffickers, that we aren't creating a humanitarian disaster in our hemisphere and at the southern border. we disagree, between republicans and democrats, about what policies will most likely achieve the outcome, but there is a broad awareness that the huge number of folks that are transiting central america and coming through mexico to our southern border is just not sustainable. you're right, the voices of democratic mayors adding to the concerns of many of us in congress are focusing us on a moment where, if republicans and democrats can put down the tools of partisanship and recognize we have an opportunity here to make responsible changes, that that should happen. >> all right. democratic senator chris coons of delaware, thank you.

i know you have a busy couple of weeks ahead. come back and review with us when you can. >> thank you. >> take care. fresh off a re-election victory in a deep red state, kentucky's democratic governor andy beshear is looking to boost the campaigns of other candidates in difficult races. yesterday, the governor announced the launch of a new political action committee with a focus on rooting out divisiveness in politics. governor beshear joins us now. thank you very much for coming on. tell us how this is going to work. because i think one of the main challenges in this country is the divisiveness, how ugly it's gotten. the disinformation that drives it, how is it going to work? >> well, when we look back at this election we just went through in kentucky, we saw one of the nastiest campaigns run against us, focusing on hate, on anger, on division.

trying to rile one group of kentuckians up against another, not necessarily me, but trying to create a boogieman, where one neighbor turns against another. to me, that violates the golden rule, that we love our neighbor as ourself. in the parable of the good samaritan, it says everyone is our neighbor. look what happened. in a state like kentucky, we pushed back. we won a five-point victory, which here is a pretty big victory. i'd never won by a full point before that. i think we showed that if you stick to your principles, if you run on the things that you want to do, how you're going to help people, and you don't back down, you push back against that hate, you try to bring people together, that there is a path to victory even in tough states. and across the country, people need to see that there is a road to victory that's run through empathy and compassion for our fellow human being. even tough issues, if you approach them on the very base

level, where we shouldn't just be pro this or pro that, but we should have enough human decency and empathy to say victims of rape and incest should have options. that weapons used to murder people shouldn't be auctioned off to the highest bidder. that there is a place to begin that conversation, even with people who may have been disagreeing for a long time. >> governor, how do you propose that democrats in those states apply the special sauce you've developed in kentucky? what would a democrat in texas do, for example? what would be the first step, the second step, and the third step to accomplish what you've accomplished, which really is remarkable in kentucky? >> well, the first step is to make sure you're focusing on the lives of your people, thepeople you're going to serve, and meet them where you are. people don't wake up every

morning thinking about democrat or republican or who is going to be the next president. though that is important. they wake up thinking about their job. are they making enough money to support their family? they're thinking of the infrastructure, the roads and bridges they'll travel on, to drop their kids at school. they're thinking about whether their kids are getting the best education, whether they're safe in their community. those are issues that if we focus on and don't just chase whatever the issue of the day is in washington, d.c., then there is a regular, consistent, not just message, but true drive of the candidate to improve the lives of the people they're going to serve. think about the contrast that makes. with somebody trying to run a politics of division and of anger. you have one side, people running the nasty ads of trying to get people to get riled up. on the other side, what you see is, here's how we're going to do it. here's how you'll get the better job. here's how we're going to fund

those roads and those bridges. here is a way to make your life better. one is a message for everyone, and the other is a message for just a few people. >> all right. democratic governor of kentucky, andy beshear, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," a conversation on populism and how president biden can convince americans his brand is better than donald trump's. plus, our next guest says she was addicted to her smartphone, so she switched to a flip phone. we'll find out how that helped. joe, you have a good idea, one of many. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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really? >> really? >> it's time for a phone to save us from our phones. >> oh, my god. >> mika! >> stop. >> mika! >> stop. >> mika has been running through neighborhoods. >> wait a minute. >> booking this show. >> that was years ago. >> she's run into parked cars. >> i did do that and face plant. i was actually booking our, gosh, it was back for the first campaign. >> it was a while back. >> for president barack obama. >> oh, no. >> i have evolved. back in 2010 -- >> hmm. >> -- microsoft was already warning about the addictive nature of smartphones.

more than a decade later, things seem to have hit critical mass, leading some to make changes in their lives. among them is a features writer at the business desk at "the new york times," who ditched her iphone for a flip phone in the month of december and loved the reset it provided. she joins us now. she covers technology and privacy issues for "the times." i should tell you, joe does this, he texts his kids and goes, "dad on flip all day," and only his kids can reach him. then i field all of his calls on my smartphone. it solves -- >> he has a flip phone, too? >> joe has a flip phone. >> wow. >> nobody has the number. >> wow. >> well, i mean, you know, it's not -- >> doesn't work so well. >> as you write, of course, it helps they then call mika, but you did say something, that it is important, not just because

it narrows it down to my kids and a few other people, but it's also important for all the reasons you write about in this article. you aren't looking at your phone every 14 seconds. it does reset you. you're better in all parts of your life. but talk about how important this is, but there is one thing you say that is so true, that even when we try our best, the world that we live in requires us, at times, to go back to it. like, it is hard to go to a flip phone when the rest of the world is on a smartphone. >> yeah. i mean, for me, it was just so nice to unplug my brain from the internet for these long periods of time. that's the thing about smartphones, it gives us access to everything. that's what makes it so addictive. at the same time, we live in a very smartphone centric world now. there were things i couldn't do.

like i have an electric car, and i went to pull in to charge it and realized i can't log into this charger without a smartphone app. two-factor authentication. a lot of sites and services we use, including "the new york times," where i had to write this article, to sign-in, i needed to provide a code from an authentication app on my smartphone. i actually had to cheat to write this article. >> wow. >> kashmir, talk a little bit about the process of decompression and kind of getting over the addiction. how hard was it? did you go through a kind of fomo period, and how long did that last? were there any familiar apps that you missed? apart from the technical ones, logistical ones. >> yeah. i mean, actually, a surprise to me was that there wasn't a lot that i missed about my phone. i would say there was a two-week period where, you know, i would go to the elevators at "the new york times" office and just everybody as you're waiting for the elevator gets their phone out and looks at it. i would have this kind of

physical urge to rub my thumb along the phone. i call it my thumb twitch. it took about two weeks for that to go away. in kind of moments of boredom, where my mind was wandering, i didn't have the urge to check my phone. that was a thing that surprised me, how quickly that happened. and then my sleeping really improved over the course of the month. i wake up a lot in the middle of the night. i'll try to fall back asleep, and then i'll reach for my iphone. i'll be up for an hour, two hours, three hours, you know, reading articles, doing christmas shopping in december. when i switched to the flip phone, i'll wake up in the middle of the night, and i fall back to sleep after a few minutes. it made me realize how harmful this has been for my sleep, to have the iphone by the bed. >> okay. but now you have the iphone back, kashmir, or are you still with the flip? >> i am still on my flip phone.

i can switch back and i haven't wanted to yet. >> okay. i like it. i think this is fabulous. "the new york times" features writer kashmir hill, thank you so much. her book entitled, "your face belongs to us, the secret of start-ups quest to end privacy as we know it," the available now. we need to talk about that, as well. we have to move on for now. a new book out today asks the question, can biden convince americans that his brand of populism is better than trump's? in "the rebels," author josh green dives into how populism on the left was galvanized by the 2008 financial crisis, sparking an uprising within the democratic party, led by economic populists elizabeth warren, bernie sanders, and ocasio-cortez. could this trio's populist pry

priorities help propel biden to president in november? josh joins us now. great to have you back on the show. we'll give the first question to elise jordan. >> josh, you wrote, basically, the first book of a lot of trump books, but yours came out first, about right-wing populism and the right of right-wing populism. what commonalities do you see from the right-wing populism that fueled trump and then the new, left-wing populism? and how difficult is it going to be for president biden to thread the needle and still keep progressives but keep the centrists that help propel him to victory in 2020? >> i think the commonality is that there was a huge political backlash after the financial crisis, which on the right, the story i told in my last book, "devil's bargain," is how it gave rise to donald trump and steve bannon.

in "the rebels," it's the flip side of it, it also gave rise to this new movement inside the democratic party, led by people like warren, sanders, and aoc, that has really caused a sea change in the democratic party in that it stands for. the book is also the story of how it took a safe, centrist, moderate president in joe biden to begin putting big parts of that agenda into practice. i think a lot of biden's re-election challenge and a lot of what he'll end up having going for him in the end is that he did adopt a lot of these populist economic policies. even though biden's poll numbers aren't too robust right now, you can begin to see in employment numbers, the record stock market, the growth of new factories and manufacturing jobs, that things are beginning to turn around in a way that you would want if you are an incoming president going into an election year. >> you focused in depth on some of the major characters driving

the progressive left's agenda. bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, ocasio-cortez. what surprised you about what you learned about how they operated, not politically because we see that, but to get policy implemented behind the scenes? >> it is a great question. you know, each one of them face what i call the activist's dilemma. all of these people were outsiders who stormed the castle. they weren't part of the democratic political establishment. they all managed to get elected with really passionate followers. then they kind of faced a dilemma. do i maintain my purity on the outside? do i, you know, cater to my social media following and so on? each of the characters in succession decided, no, you know, i'm here to get something done. i have a set of policies that i want to achieve. they recognized, once warren and bernie weren't able to win the democratic nomination in 2020, that the best vehicle to achieve

those policies was joe biden. i think one of the underappreciated stories about joe biden's presidency, and i sort of shake my head every time i see the liberal doomerism out there, is he's put large parts of these policies into place. whether it's two big rounds of stimulus after covid, you know, the biggest environmental bill that anybody has ever seen. even though it was sort of dressed up as the inflation reduction act, like, huge victory for alexandria ocasio-cortez and all the people pushing for a green new deal. i think it is an interesting story, but the biggest differentiator, i think, for joe biden is -- you know, my book is bookended by -- it begins with the financial crisis in 2008 and the backlash that caused, but if you flash forward to the covid crash, we have recovered much quicker from that. it took two years to get all the jobs loss back after covid.

it took seven years after the financial crisis. i work at "bloomberg," so i'm surrounded by economic numbers all day. all of of those numbers really do sort of point to, you know, it's about to be morning in america again. what joe biden's challenge is now is going out and convincing voters of that and convincing them that his policies, which are really the policies of the populist left, are responsible for that turnaround. >> josh, isn't there overlap between the policies of the -- the economic pop policies of t populist left and the populist right, and if so, what are we arguing about? >> there is to an extent. in 2020, joe biden did not strip away donald trump's tariffs. i think both trump, but certainly biden and biden's administration, understand after the 2008 financial crisis and everything that happened afterwards, there needs to be a focus on the middle class.

in particular, in places like the industrial midwest that never recovered from the last financial crisis. you see biden pushing these big, industrial policies, trying to assure manufacturing jobs. i was in aliquippa, pennsylvania. they're building a new steel plant to replace the one that was torn down in the 1980s. these things are working economically. i think the challenge for biden politically, though, is convincing people, in especially younger progressives who aren't too hot on him right now, that he's really getting done a lot of what my three characters were campaigning on in 2020. i think it is worth pointing out, too, you know, at any point, warren, sanders, and even aoc, who turns 35 in october, could have challenged joe biden in 2024 for the democratic nomination. the fact that none of them did, i think, speaks to the fact that they understand that he's really taken up and implemented a lot

of their policies. >> the new book is entitled "the rebels," elizabeth warren, bernie sanders, ocasioocasio-co and the struggle for a new american politics. josh green, congratulations on the book. nice to have you on the show. >> thanks. coming up, we'll be joined by one of the first humanitarian workers to respond to the hamas terror attacks in israel. also ahead, what investigators are learning about the alaska airlines flight that had a section of the plane break loose while mid-flight. no, no, no, no. "morning joe" is back in just a moment.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." 48 past the hour. the palestinian-islamic jihad has released a new propaganda

video showing an israeli farmer held hostage in gaza for over three months. in the video, the farmer says it is a miracle he is still alive and called on the israeli government to do more to bring about his release. nbc news cannot verify the context of his statements, as the video may have been edited. it is likely he is speaking under duress. his father was killed in his home on an agricultural kibbutz on october 7th. his mother was also taken hostage and was among those later released. two experts at the united nations say the atrocities committed by hamas october 7th may be considered crimes against humanity. the expert cited the growing evidence of sexual violence that occurred in israel that day, as well as the brutality of the attacks, calling it, quote, particularly harrowing. in a statement, they called for a full accountability for the alleged crimes, as well as a

cease-fire in the war in gaza. joining us now, the head of the southern operations for the non-profit emergency response team. one of the first humanitarian workers to witness the devastation of the october 7th attack. i am reading what you have seen, and i am praying for you, as well as want to ask you, what do you think the hope is for the fate of the remaining hostages? >> good morning. thank you for hosting. um, our hearts go for the hostages and for the families. we see them. we meet them and we talk to them every day. unfortunately, we still are doing some work in the houses of those kibbutz that they were murdered and part of the family

were hostages, were taken. and we are there on daily basis and we face them, we see them. our heart goes out for them. and we hope for the best. >> given what you have seen, especially in the days after october 7th, how do you handle discussions with the families about the potential of their coming home, what state they may be in, or potentially them never coming home? sforz. >> well, the faith in god. that's what keeps us. and we have to believe that nothing is -- has been done by itself, and we give them the courage and their heroes because, as we know, they saved

thousands of thousands of people because of their courage, they saved -- we know the plans was for those hamas terrorists on october 7th to come and invade more and more cities and kill thousands of people. so they were stopped by those kibbutz or by those festival, the people of the festival, the victims of the festival, and by the kibbutz. so we look at them as heroes. because of them, a lot of people were saved. >> yossi, can you explain your role as emergency responder on october 7th and why you think three months on it's important to carry on talking from your perspective about what you saw on that day?

>> i am joining a volunteer unit. it's called zaka. it's a definition, in hebrew, the english definition is for it to indemnify every unnatural death. it was started in 1989 when the terrorist attacks started in israel. we knew the importance of correct burial and indemfying the families. identifying the victims to respect the remains and to respect the families. and that shows a difference between us and the hamas terrorists because we know and we heard that when young hamas terrorists call this father and mother and telling them that

they killed ten jews and they were only encouraging him that it's not enough. and by us, the opposite, we do the opposite. we try to respect the remains and the families. and when we hear that an unfortunately we have 30 unidentified victims that cannot be identified, and every time and every day that we have someone identified we just sing and we are happy now because this is a respect for the family and respect for the remains, for the victims. that's the difference. and for me, to go out to the world and show the difference and we have nothing against muslims. not anybody. we have on our team 3,000

people. partful of them is muslims, arabs, jews, christians. it's like israel has in the government and the police and the idf. they have everything. and we have nothing. but like the isis were condemned in the world, the same thing hamas has to be condemned. they have to be demolished. there is no way that they have, because for us, as a first responder, when we came in and we saw what we saw, what they did to our brothers and sisters, and not only to our brothers and sisters, but they did it to americans, they did it to thailands, they did it to everybody, and we couldn't come home for six weeks. my volunteers, our volunteers, couldn't come home and hug the children and just look at the children in the home.

sorry. >> no. thank you so much for bearing witness. the strength that it takes to do what you and your organization do to help all of these innocent men and women, you know, receive the dignified final burial that they deserve. my heart just goes out to you and the world owes you a great debt for traumatizing yourself so that they get to -- the dignity that they deserve. what do you have to say? what do you want the world to know about the nature of the enemy, of this enemy, of hamas, the terrorists after what you have seen? >> i'll tell you that we -- i met a 92-year-old holocaust survivor like two weeks in the war. i went to meet him and showed him some of my images, the pictures that we took and i explained them. he started to cry and he said he was working with dr. mangela by

the holocaust and he saw the testing on the people and he said what you saw wasn't in the holocaust. it was worse. and i don't want to expose that to the public because i feel that will not be -- it's not the correct honor for the families or for the victims to tell them. but i you can tell you, when we went into houses, entire families, entire families were tortured and cut off body parts. and we, as volunteers, as parents, as a father of children, and that's our goal in life, to raise a normal family, has to debate to see -- our debate was if the father -- if

the parents saw how the children were tortured and -- or the children were -- saw how the father was tortured. and we felt, because the bodies were talking to us, this is the only time. 33 years in my mission, my job, my mission, were all over the world. we were -- we go and we respect every place. we were in turkey. i can say 7.5 months ago i came back from turkey. the earthquake. and we saved 90 muslims from -- we saved their lives. and not talking about the hundreds that we respected the remains, but lives we saved 100. and when we get now -- and those muslims right -- in turkey there against us. for why? for nothing.

i have no idea why. we just came over there to do them good. and when i come on a scene in october 7, going to a car and seeing the father and the mother, the parents killed in the back, they were killed in the back and a small child is behind the scene -- behind the seat and crying that was four hours after they were murdered, she was still hiding, and is just asking me if i'm from the friendly guys. and she started to cry. and i have grandchildren the same age. what i have to do is just close other eyes. she shouldn't see her parents dead and hand her over to some police officers to give them for the family because she was alone. and she stayed alone. >> god bless you. thank you. the world and that child is lucky that you were there. thank you.

>> absolutely. head of southern operations for israel's non-profit emergency response team zaka, yossi, thank you. we are back in two minutes. s ? yeah, i got an implant, sheila!! it's inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com i think he's having a midlife crisis learn more and view important safety information i'm not. you got us t-mobile home internet lite. after a week of streaming they knocked us down... ...to dial up speeds. like from the 90s. great times.

all i can do say is that my life is pre-- i like watching the puddles gather rain. -hey, your mom and i procreated to that song. oh, ew! i think you've said enough. why don't we just switch to xfinity like everyone else? then you would know what year it was. i know what year it is. we have an economy that's incredible, we have an economy that's so fragile. the only reason it's running is because it's run off the fumes of what we did. when there is a crash, i hope it will be during the next 12 months because i don't want to be herbert hoover. >> okay. donald trump hopes millions of americans lose their money from

their 401(k)'s and retirement savings in the next 12 months so he doesn't look bad. we have a lot to get to this morning, including a key hearing today for trump's claim of presidential immunity in the federal election interference case. we will have expert legal analysis on that in just a moment. plus, the very latest on two major developments in the middle east. israel says it has killed a hezbollah commander in southern lebanon. it comes after the israeli military says it is shifting to a more targeted campaign inside gaza. retired four-star navy admiral stavridis on both of those stories. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, january 9th. with us we have former aide to the george h.w. bush white house and state department's elise jordan, columnist at "the

washington post" eugene robinson, also here in washington u.s. special correspondent for bbc news caddy kay and joe, you've got to love the former president so worried about his image. there were so many things wrong with what he said. >> what you've got to love, he is once again exposed himself to show just how horrific of a public servant he would be. this is a guy that admitted on television, he is so focused on himself that he wants americans to hurry up and lose their jobs. he wants them to lose their savings. he wants them to lose their 401(k)s. he wants their retirement accounts to be shattered over the next 12 months. he is that desperate to be

elected. if you talk to economists from the left to right, they will tell you this economy is stronger than it's been. it's more resilient than they ever expected it to be, that this economy -- you even had conservatives, you had gerard baker, no fan of joe biden, saying one of the big winners of 2023 last year was the united states economy, and it is strong. gene robinson, i feel like i must go to you on this question only because i just think you are going to be at the top of your game because your wolverines won their first national championship this century. this century. it must be very exciting. >> it is very exciting. it's terrific. it was amazing. of course, i stayed up to watch the game and then stayed up to watch the presentation of the trophy. and i'm awake, right, because this does not happen every year.

and a great team, a great game, and the better team won last night. so go blue. >> go blue. >> it was quite a run. it's hard to imagine again, people in britain, britain has its own problems, but people across the world, they used to look at the united states before donald trump as a really stable force. we now have in "the new york times" an oral comparing brazil with the united states, and actually the brazilian people are condemning the riots at their capitol. are you there? >> i am. oh, yeah. >> she has been there the whole time. >> magic. >> that was me. >> that was me calling for caddy. so you had "the new york times" article comparing brazil with the united states. the united states used to come

out on top on that comparison, but now they are talking about the reaction of the public to riots against the capitol and the brazilians have all predictliably come out and said it's a bad thing. we don't want our capitol overrun by rioters, by a guy who is trying to steal the election, yet here we are, shockingly enough, three years later, and you have a large chunk of donald trump supporters actually supporting the riots, saying that they were -- they weren't as bad as we are all saying they were, that many were peaceful protests, and that's just not -- that's just a lie. what are they willing to do for this guy guy who is hoping they lose their retirement accounts over the next 12 months and that the economy goes into a depression so he can get re-elected. >> yeah, so he doesn't have to be hoover and it goes into a recession or have an economy crash after he gets into office. that was a weird comment,

wishing economic -- >> there are so many. >> catastrophe on the american people. but could they -- could it happen just before i'm elected rather than after i'm elected? you're right. bolsonaro kind of copied the trump playbook and the brazilian people had a very different reaction. there is a different amount of revisionism. interesting looking at the polls around january 6th in the states at the moment. not just amongst american voters who, you know, we all were there, and i think every time we play it, we do the country a service where we remind people of what it looked like on that day and how shocked by and large this country was and how shocked members of congress in the republican party were. i think that's the critical thing, is that it's not just the public that might be, you know, trump supporters saying actually january 6th was a sort of nice walk in the park and it was fine. it's also those members of congress who came out the day afterwards and said this was a, you know, a terrible event that

should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. what a different tune they are singing today. >> well, this past week we saw some clips that came out of members of congress were shouting -- republicans shouting at the rioters, trying to get in and kill people inside the capitol saying that they were ashamed of them. now what are they doing? they are on the side of the rioters. they are on the side of the rioters. but there was a big debate, and you saw it across the papers, "washington post," "wall street journal," "new york times" this past weekend over how should the media react to donald trump? well, the way the media should react to donald trump is to stop acting like when he says things, oh, it's a throwaway line, oh, it's -- you know, there is nothing normal about yesterday us playing the clip, there is

nothing normal about donald trump saying that abraham lincoln blew it, that abraham lincoln should have negotiated with slaveholders and negotiated slavery away to avoid the civil war. we talked about nikki haley for a week or two when nikki haley said what nikki haley said. but notice you look through the papers. he attacked abraham lincoln. he said abraham lincoln was a war monger. i see nothing in the newspapers about that because it's normalized. there is nothing normal about it. a column that i hope is -- proves to be true and i think it may be, that donald trump is at his high-water mark right now because he is waltzing through a primary, a coronation, he won't even debate. and when he gets out in the heat of the campaign, every time he

opens his mouth he says things like this. i hope the economy crashes. i hope wall street crashes. i hope people lose their 401(k)s. i hope the economy gets destroyed so i can be elected president and it doesn't happen on my watch. a reporter for the "national review," a columnist for the "national review," baseball crank, said a couple years ago, which is this, when americans are talking about joe biden republicans win. when americans are talking about donald trump, democrats win. and as donald trump goes into this election and he says crazier things every day, and they are getting crazier, donald trump's numbers likely will go down again. >> joe, you would hope so. you would hope that in saying rantings that sound like someone should not be in fewer rather they should be in a straitjacket

and given some kind of injection, you would hope that that would not be just dismissed by a lot of voters. but unfortunately as we have seen, there are plenty of republican voters who are willing to look away and dismiss it just as theater, just as performance because they are so against -- the polarization is so strong and they are so against the other side. and all that matters is defeating the other side. and you look at how the electorate in this country has become so radicalized. two out of ten americans see the other side as the enemy. not just political opposition, but the enemy. and so i worry that donald trump is winning when attention is on him no matter how insane or inane his comments are at a given moment. >> okay. we'll move to donald trump's legal -- >> scarbrough, what's the news?

>> what's she doing? okay. you can do that. okay. by the way, when you were talking, she was listening to you from another studio, sint sprinted in here, jumped in her seat, answered perfectly. that was acrobatic. >> i that i that's what women do. >> she is hall of fame. >> she got it. >> that's what we do. >> exactly. >> there you go. >> all right. let's move to donald trump -- >> we need that podcast. i like that. >> all right. oral arguments will begin this morning. former president's appeals court hearing on presidential immunity. trump is expected to attend as a three-judge appeals court panel decides if he can be charged with election interference. there will be no cameras in the courtroom, but audio of the hearing will be broadcast. the special counsel has charged

trump with illegally attempted to overturn the 2020 election culminating in the january 6th insurrection at the capitol. trumps lawyers argue any actions he took are protected by presidential immunity. they also claim any prosecution would be a form of double jeopardy since he was already impeached and acquitted the by the senate. the trump legal team is arguing the fulton county georgia rico case should be dismissed because trump allegedly did not know that trying to overturn an election was illegal. the lawyers make that argument in a new court filing. quote -- >> wait a second. >> i know. >> i just -- >> hold on a second. no, hold on. this is one of those times where we don't just let you know what fly against the wall. when donald trump says, i did not know that calling the

secretary of state of georgia and telling him to throw out 11,000 however many votes -- why don't we -- why don't we play this where this is where donald trump is demanding that the secretary of state of georgia steal the election for him. and listen to this. and this guy is claiming -- this guy who wants you to lose your retirement safgts and 401(k) and wants the economy to crash so he can get elected to the president of the united states because he is that desperate to be elected president of the united states he was desperate to remain the president of the united states, he is calls the secretary of state of georgia and said steal this election for me. take a listen. >> i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. look, all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780

votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state. there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, you've recalculated. >> there is nothing wrong, donald trump says, with lying through your teeth. finding 11,780 votes. listen, you know, i don't like to admit this, gene, but i'm a simple country lawyer, all right? just a simple country lawyer. >> well. >> i fell off a turnip truck. >> oh, my god. >> and i landed in front of congress and served in address for a few years. let me tell you, even as a simple country lawyer, me and the thousands and thousands of people who are elected every two years to serve in congress, seems like thousands, everybody there would know that is stealing an election and that is illegal. >> yeah. and, you know, i grew up in a

town where there were turnip trucks where i grew up, too, and still -- and still anybody, the driver of the turnip truck, the, you know, the people who loaded the turnips and unloaded them, they knew that stealing an election was illegal. everybody knows that. and -- what a ridiculous claim, a ridiculous filing again in a series -- in a blizzard of ridiculous frivolous legal filings that the former president has made within a hailstorm of ridiculous, offensive, and just crazy comments that he is making. you are right. we can't become enyou'red to any of this. it is not normal and it is -- it is completely out of bounds in terms of the way our democracy or any democracy ought to work. >> yeah, let's bring in former

u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor, chuck rosenberg. trust me, he didn't just fall off a turnip truck yesterday and wind up inside the studios of 30 rock like me. chuck, we're laughing about this defense and we are laughing i think for valid reasons. why don't you take us through it legally. any chance that donald trump's gonna prevail on any of these points that mika read? >> you are laughing because it's laughable. i mean, defense attorneys can write what they want, file what they want. it doesn't really matter because at the end of the day assuming this case goes to trial in georgia, there is going to be 12 men and women in the jury box who are going to decide what they think of this defense. now, you know, there is -- it's clear ignorance of the law is not a defense. but more than that, he tried to steal an election. he did it in a number of ways, by submitting slates of fake

electors, putting pressure on local officials. strike to get vice president mike pence to halt the vote and substitute his electors for the genuine electors. a jury will see that. a jury will hear that. they will see the evidence. they will hear from the witnesses. and so it's laughable. we can laugh about it. at the end of the day, in a serious place, in a court of law, you a jury will decide and they are not going to buy it. they didn't as you and eugene have talked about. >> chuck, this seems pretty straightforward that today donald trump is going to go in and he is probably not going to get an outcome that is to his liking or his defense attorneys. do you think that's probably what's gonna happen? what do think is the best-case scenario for donald trump today. >> i think that's right. that's a different case. this is an oral argument in the d.c. circuit court of appeals. mr. trump filed a motion to

dismiss the indictment against him because he claimed two things. one, that he is immune from prosecution as a former president. the answer to that legally is no. nonsense. the second claim, the double jeopardy precludes him being charged with these crimes. again, the answer is, no, wrong, double jeopardy does -- that's not double jeopardy and that's not going to work to his favor. so, you know, maybe i'm biased. maybe i come at this from a different vantage point because because i was a former federal prosecutor. but i think the arguments he advanced to dismiss the underlying indictment are frivil loose. i think he loses unanimously and quickly. >> s chuck, if he loses the double jeopardy argument he loses the sorry i didn't know it was a crime argument. is the biggest potential impact that it delays that march start date of the d.c. trial?

>> right. that's a great question. the trial we are talking about, the federal case in washington, d.c., is slated for trial on march 4. and i think that that trial date is endangered. i am not sure it's doomed. let me explain that. if the court of appeals can quickly decide this case, finding that he is, indeed, not immune from prosecution finding indeed that double jeopardy doesn't preclude this prosecution, they issue their ruling, they issue the mandate quickly, and the supreme court refuses to hear the case. they don't have to, of course. there is a chance that this could get back on track rather quickly in the district court, in the trial court, in the district of columbia. will it be march 4th? can it be that quickly? i don't know. i hope so. but if things break the way i think they will break, i believe this case could be tried before

the election, well before the election. >> but wait, chuck. there's more. a federal appeals court has denied donald trump's request to consider his presidential immunity claim in the defamation lawsuit filed by e. jean carroll. carroll alleges the former president sexually abused her in a department store in the '90s. trump denies the allegation. but in mau a jury deemed him liable and awarded carroll $5 million in damages. it's important to point out the judge considered it rape. now a second trial is pending in which jurors will decide whether carroll with should be awarded more money for the comments trump made after that verdict when he continued to defame her as well as the statements he made shortly after she came forward in the allegation in 2019 when trump was allegedly president -- was president. a judge has already ruled trump is liable for defamation. the former president's lawyers

have been arguing he has legal protection from lawsuits pertaining to his action while in office. an appeals court initially reject thad claim last month and now so has the second u.s. circuit court of appeals. trump now has the option to take the case to the supreme court. the defamation trial is scheduled to begin on january 16th. so, chuck, what are the options here? and again e. jean carroll had no choice when he defamed her again to sue again. >> that's right. she was right to sue the first time and right to sue the second time and they were right to award her the damages. so what mr. trump's lawyers are arguing in essence, he should be immune from civil liability for defaming ms. carroll and they are sort of tethering that to a 1928 supreme court case, nixon versus fitzgerald. that case stands for the proposition that a president, if

he is acting in his official capacity, really important distinction, is immune from civil lawsuits. but clearly defaming miss carroll and the other things he did to her cannot possibly be within the definition of official conduct. presidents don't get to -- presidents -- anyone else, for that matter, doesn't get to behave that way and hide behind immunity. so it's simply that. it's not official conduct. therefore, he is not immune from liability. therefore, she can proceed against him and win her judgment and, hopefully, collect on it. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you so much for coming in this morning. there is so much going on. we will see you again soon. still ahead on "morning joe," secretary of state antony blinken is in israel this morning in his latest diplomatic push to prevent a wider conflict in the middle east. we will have an update on the country's war against hamas as

the israeli military announces a shift to a new more targeted approach in gaza. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. mr. we'll be right back. mr before you go to the counter. i found the cheaper price with singlecare! yes, you did. see. give it a try. go to singecare.com or download the free app today.

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♪♪ israel is taking responsibility for a strike that killed a hezbollah commander. the country's foreign minister took credit for the attack in southern lebanon yesterday in a televised interview. the commander was a member of hezbollah's governing board and was related by marriage to the militant group's leader. his death is the latest sign of mounting tensions between israel and hezbollah. yesterday, israeli officials warned they are prepared to escalate military operations in lebanon in order to contain the threat from across the border. the commander's death comes a week after a suspected israeli

airstrike killed a senior hamas official in beirut. hezbollah vowed to retaliate for that attack. the secretary of state antony blinken is now in israel meeting with officials about the war in gaza in efforts to prevent a wider conflict. his visit comes just day after the israeli military announced it is shifting to a new phase of combat. the idf says it's moving away from a large-scale ground and air campaign to a more targeted approach that includes fewer troops in gaza. this is something the biden administration has been pushing for. u.s. officials say they expect the israeli military to rely on smaller groups of elite forces who will focus on eliminating hamas leaders and rescuing hostages. the idf says it has already begun this new phase in northern gaza. officials tell the u.s. while they hope to complete the transition by the end of the

month, that could change if they discover new threats or encounter a stiffer hamas resistance. joe? >> let's bring in former supreme allied commander nato admiral stra veetis. we look at the headlines today about the hezbollah commander senior commander whose been killed. the lead story here in the "new york times." we will get back to the other lead story in "the new york times" in a second about the new phase of the israel war. not to be too crude, we seem to be in a phase where the hunters have become the hunted. >> yeah. >> the hamas leader killed. you have a hezbollah leader killed. you have isis going after leaders in iran. you have houthis that are subject to more attacks. now, i understand and i hear

from, i guess they would be called the ocons in the past. not sure. i hear criticism of biden we should support the ukrainians marching straight to moscow and support the absolute annihilation of every country in the middle east. i exaggerate only slightly. biden has tashen a measured approach. most people not on far right would say he has done a pretty extraordinary job of this. there is no doubt there is now -- we're finally starting to see in a more targeted way the ramifications of what hamas did and they are starting to feel real pressure. >> indeed. and i think, joe, this all can be kind of confusing. hamas and hezbollah and houthis and what we need to remember is

there is kind of a one-word summary, and that word would be iran. all of these groups are trained, organized, equipped, directed from tehran. and so it is a good thing to watch the israelis. i think in a relatively measured way, you know, they could have started dropping huge bombs on beirut. this was a very targeted pair of strikes up north. took out one hamas leader. one hezbollah leader. it's measured. in terms of the houthis, these are the iranian pirates. you and i have talked about them, in the red sea. i think the biden administration is working their way up the ladder of escalation in a way that is sending a signal through the houthi pirates to tehran. and that's what has to continue here, is a measured approach. >> well, and, admiral, what you just said about that measured

approach, and sort of an increase of intensity of attacks, it's the same thing joe biden did in ukraine. what he continues to do in ukraine. you know, you have people on the sidelines saying, why doesn't he give them this? why doesn't he give them that? he has. he has. it's measured though. it's step by step by step because, again, i'm sorry, when you are dealing with a country like russia that has more nuclear weapons than anybody else, no sudden movements. when you're dealing with what we're dealing with in the middle east and iran and the possibility of a massive regional war, no sudden movements. talk about how joe biden has -- and again, criticize him. yeah, we could -- we want to criticize him. talk about afghanistan. but it seems to me in these cases he's done what's required,

what a conservative with a small c would you calling for. >> indeed. here is the way to think about it. life is never, almost never an on-and-off switch. life so often is kind of a rheostat, that dimmer on the wall if the dining room. you've got to kinda dial it in. i think in ukraine, for example, they started with stingers and javelins, they kind of upped the ante to patriot air defenses, moved up the ladder with the atacm missiles, kept dialing. that's the process they are undertaking in the middle east. dial it up, encourage the israelis to use less brute force more specific targeted special forces. so think of it as a rheostat. now, we could argue back and forth about whether they should have spun that dial faster and

got be f-16s to ukraine. but those are tactical decisions. the strategic way in which the administration has approached both ukraine and the middle east is balanced and sensible. >> coming up, steve kornacki is standing by at the big board as we count down to next week's iowa caucuses. my gosh, it's almost here. plus, where things stand in new hampshire. a make or break state for nikki haley's hopes of stopping donald trump's glide path to the nomination. "morning joe" is back in a moment. moment

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>> it's a polarizing figure. people out there believe that whatever michigan does is tainted. that's up to you to decide. but hail, hail michigan. they are the champions of college football 2023. >> hail to the victors. michigan is college football's national champion after beating number two washington last night's title game. best-selling author paul finebaum, paul, we'll talk about the coach who was banned twice this season from being on the sidelines. first, i must say i think it's a southern thing. i don't have a great deal of respect for most big ten teams, occasionally ohio state has a really good team that can compete with s.e.c. teams. this michigan team, by the end, won me over last night.

even more so than the alabama game, which i will forever think we should have won. but this game last night showed this is a heck of a team top to bottom. >> joe, i agree. and it's easy to joke about how until last night michigan had won one and a half national championships in the last 70 years. seems like alabama and georgia went through a drive-through somewhere and picked up another one. but it was real. for all of the criticism and i have been at the tip of that spear for the last couple of months, it was a dominating performance. this was not last year with tcu. washington really was an excellent football team. michael pennocks, the quarterback, had a rough night. the defense kept them in the game. they probably shouldn't have been in the game as long as they were. to jim harbaugh's credit, he withstood all types of criticism and whiplash and at the end he was the one smiling.

the questions today are not so much whether he will win another one. it's where he will go next. i am sure we will get to that in a second. >> gene robinson, the interesting thing, and my knock on big ten teams, and i think most s.e.c. fans have looked at big ten teams as being these slow, hulking players. and i have been to big ten games and said, my god, this is like high school football. that michigan team last night blew away all of those preconceived notions over the past 30 years. the michigan team last night looked like the michigan teams i grew up with as a kid in the '70s when a guy named bo was their head coach. they looked -- they looked like a powerful, fast, all -- i mean,

put together, great football team. >> yeah. and that's what they were. i mean, these were all -- remember, these are five-star recruits that harbaugh brought to michigan. he has been building this program for years. the third year in a row he made the college football playoffs, the first year, of course, that he broke through. but this is a really, really balanced team with a powerful running game, a very good passing game, a clever and mobile quarterback in j.j. mccarthy, and they dominated the line of scrimmage. that's kind of old-fashioned football, but that's what they did to alabama, which a lot of people thought they could not do to -- an s.e.c. powerhouse like alabama, and that's what they did against washington. it's what they did all year. it's what they did against ohio state. in a sense, michigan is a bit late to the game. ohio state has been at that

s.e.c. level for a while. it took michigan a while to catch back up, but now, of course, when you talk about big ten football starting next year, you'll be including washington, you will be including these west coast teams, and so i think we are going to have to expand the meaning of that term. but it was a great night for wolverines and their fans. >> coming up, our next guest calls it the greatest show on earth, or at least in florida. matt dixon joins us with his new book on the strange relationship between donald trump and ron desantis. "morning joe" is back in a moment. joe" is back in a moment take full control of your brand with your own custom store. scale faster with tools that let you manage every sale from every channel. and sell more with the best converting checkout on the planet. a lot more.

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♪♪ ♪♪ independent journalist has risked his life to document the

devastating effects at the mining industry on his indigenous community in peru. fidel's fight is the subject of the short dooumt "wings of dust" which is on academy awards short list. let's take a look at part of the trailer for the film, which is in spanish with english subtitles.

joining us now, fidel, alongside a translator. also with us is the film's director and co-executive producer benjamin bratt, who has a personal connection to this. tell us about this doc and also why you are in a way personally connected to this issue. >> good morning. yes, it's interesting, because it would be like a journalism student contacting you and saying, hey, i have tell the story? hey, i won the gold medal of the student academy awards and i have this film. do you want to help me open it? we were a little bit incredulous about it, but i watched the film

and, of course, was immediately knocked out by the obvious talent. to your question, my mother is from peru. my mother's mother was from the region that fidel is fighting for. i was deeply moved. as the great toni morrison once said, if you have power, you have to help other people gain their power. if you have your freedom, you have to help other people be free. i thought it was my moral duty to come on board and help these guys release the picture. >> as you were directing this short documentary, what were you hoping viewers would take away from it? >> i think i started with the idea that each of us, through media, through documentaries, we all have a really important

message to share with our audience. in this case with fidel, this came really naturally. i discover he has so much to teach us from his resilience and courage and from simply the fact that he doesn't give up. he's in front of this big monster, which is the mining company against the indigenous community. i had to tell this story. >> same question to fidel. i wonder what inspired you to take on this project and what message you hope viewers will walk away with after seeing it.

[ speaking in a global language ] >> translator: good morning and thank you so much for having me. this was a big opportunity for me. this is the moment that we are all seeing the fight that indigenous people were having for our land, and i don't feel alone anymore. >> you went for two months and lived with fidel. so you understood the level of threat he's under to pursue free

speech in journalism in peru. can you talk about some of the pressure that you observed simply because he's trying to tell the truth about clean water and the environment in peru. >> what we know is since fidel started reporting on human rights violations, he received a lot of threats which are people breaking into his house and stealing his camera or simply somebody who follows him or calls. all of these elements put a lot of stress on his life every day, on him, on his family, on his kids. fidel is a man that no matter

how much we consider him defeated, he always had the courage to go out and keep telling his message and always had the courage to help someone perceive a different future, where they could drink clean water from the river. >> i think an important part of the story is that georgia, as the filmmaker, gives fidel agency to coauthor his own story. native people's native is pushed to the margins. they become brothers after living together two months. that's a beautiful part of the story. >> the documentary short is entitled "wings of dust."

thank you so much for joining us and thank you for this incredible piece of work. we appreciate it. coming up, donald trump this morning will attend a federal appeals hearing in the nation's capital on his claims that he has presidential immunity from prosecution. we'll have live reporting from the courthouse. plus, the former president's attorneys now say his case in georgia should be dismissed because trump didn't know trying to overturn an election was illegal. we'll dig into that argument straight ahead on "morning joe." t straight ahead on "morning joe."

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welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. in less than 30 minutes, oral

arguments will begin in former president trump's appeals court hearing on presidential immunity. we're going to bring you coverage of that hearing live. trump is expected to arrive to court any minute now as a three-judge appeals court panel decides if he can be charged with election interference. there will be no cameras in the courtroom, but we will broadcast audio of the hearing. trump's lawyers argue any actions he took after the 2020 election are protected by presidential immunity and charges should be dismissed. that argument was initially dismissed by judge tanya chutkan. if the appeals court agrees with her, the trump team will likely push for a decision from the supreme court. we are joined here in the studio and outside in the courthouse in washington with ken dilanian.

also with us is andrew weissman and john heilemann. ken dilanian, what can we expect? >> reporter: we're already seeing jack smith himself in the courtroom this morning, which is an interesting development. we're expecting donald trump to arrive at some point. these are appellate arguments. generally the defendant doesn't show up to court. that's created a heightened atmosphere around here, a much larger police presence than i'm used to seeing at a typical appellate argument. we're going to see rather lengthy arguments here in front of these three judges because there are some weighty issues at play here even though most legal

experts don't think this is a close call, the idea that a former president cannot be charged with any contact in office whatsoever. that's really not supported in our traditions and our law, particularly if you listen to what jack smith says about the matter. there is no case law or precedent here. donald trump is arguing not only is he immune, but this prosecution is improper under the double jeopardy provision because he was already impeached and acquitted in the senate. of course, jack smith responds these are different charges, actually, so double jeopardy doesn't apply. the idea that a president can't be charged criminally is belied by the fact that, of course, president ford pardoned richard nixon after watergate under the presumption that he could be charged based on those crimes

after he left office. >> what's the timeline? >> the timeline is the key thing for people to keep their eye on, because this argument, while i agree with ken there's a lot to chew on, but it's never been made because no one's had sort of the chutzpah to make this argument. most people believe there's no way donald trump is going to prevail today, but he could continue to delay things. while this is being heard, there is a stay of all substantive proceedings in the trial court. the trial was technically set for march 4th to begin, and that is likely to be pushed back because of these appeals. one of the things that is useful for everyone to keep their ears

open for when oral argument begins is what the court says to the parties about that stay, whether it should continue or not and ways to speed up that clock. people are thinking about the substance of is there presidential immunity, but the real issue is how quickly will the court deal with the stay and can they get this case back on track at the trial court level. >> heilemann, we have iowa a week away, and this former president is here today. he's in new york city on thursday to deal with other legal matters. i'm envisioning him using all of this as new material for his road show to drum up hatred. let's keep in mind that there are people involved with these cases or anything related to the

trump election situation, whether it be states that want to take him off the ballot, a judge being swatted. the danger can only get more ramped up, and i don't see trump having any problems doing that. >> not only not any problems doing that, but that's the whole thrust of the campaign, it's the retribution and revulsion campaign 2024. that has gotten him a long way in american politics, as we know. so far in this nomination fight, he has not paid any political price for it. we have to see what's going to happen in iowa, new hampshire and south carolina.

right now it's working for donald trump. if you listen to all of the legal wise men and women who come on our air, these are all frivolous claims. these are ridiculous claims. the one in georgia where he says, hey, i didn't know asking someone to find plus votes was illegal, what are you talking about? they're all designed to delay the process. the worrying thing is, again, a blatantly outrageous, ill-founded, ungrounded, not legally justified set of tactics are going to apparently work for donald trump if, in fact, the january 6th case in washington, d.c. ends up getting delayed, he will continue to do these things to try to push that date out as

far as possible, ideally past election day. >> him saying i didn't know this was criminal, is this a legitimate legal argument? >> i used to say when i was a prosecutor and defense lawyers came in and made arguments like that as to why their client should not be charged, i used to say, you know what, that's a jury issue. go ahead, make that argument to the jury, because it's laughable. this is one where donald trump is maybe saying this for his base, but there's no merit to it at all. if he wants to make that claim in court to the jury, go right ahead. if the former president of the united states didn't know that, good luck with that.

>> does donald trump need to be there today? what do you think he's doing with his presence? i believe it's gathering material to use at his rallies. could it be helpful? >> yeah. i think it is politically helpful for him, ironically. the more he emphasizes this notion that the legal system is a raid against him and this is all the biden administration setting him up and trying to, as he puts it, comment election interference, that works in his favor. by being here, he puts more of a focus on his presence and personifies this fight. it's a very visceral thing for his supporters. we're seeing these interviews in the field about trump supporters who now believe that january 6th was a put-up job by the fbi and

who don't believe joe biden is legitimately elected. this misinformation is spreading around the land and he's helping to fuel it. things like his presence today feeds right into that. >> i'm going to ask you about the timing of everything trump is facing. is anything moving along at a quicker clip, either for safety reasons, especially given the elections are upon us? or do you envision everything being dragged out into eternity, and therefore, any consequences come after an election? >> that's a great question. i do think there is one case that we should all sort of keep our eye on. ironically it is the first criminal case that was brought. that is in the manhattan district attorney's office. that case has a trial date at

the end of march. while the judge would be willing to have that case put off if it was going to interfere with the federal judge chutkan case, he did not yet move that trial date. that may, in fact, have been a very smart move, because if the judge chutkan case is put off because of the appeals we're seeing, that manhattan case, i think, is going to go forward at the end of march and it should take four to six weeks for that case to go. then it will be interesting to see whether we have either the florida federal case or this judge chutkan d.c. case. i think one way or the other there will be a criminal trial of donald trump and maybe more than one before the objection. >> wow.

thank you very much. in just a few moments we're going to bring you the immunity appeal oral argument live right here on msnbc. new polling shows former president trump making larger inroads with two key groups when compared to 2016. evangelicals and first-time caucus-goers. steve kornacki is with us from the big board. what are the latest polls showing us about trump's gain with these two groups? i have no word for evangelical voters at this point. >> just in terms of the numbers, it is a dramatic turnaround since 2016 in terms of where trump stands with the evangelicals. we've seen this nationally. i think it's the biggest story in iowa. eight years ago, iowa caucuses

in 2016, remember, trump lost iowa. he came in second to ted cruz. he barely held off marco rubio for third place. he ended up winning new hampshire. but the overriding reason donald trump lost iowa in 2016 is right here. this is the exit poll from the caucuses. this is the evangelical vote. about 64% of the iowa republican electorate in 2016 was evangelical. ted cruz won it by double digits over donald trump. there was a lot of resisresista. cruz won the state. that was 2016. our most recent poll out of

iowa, among evangelicals, look at the turnaround. trump, who was losing by 12 to ted cruz, now with an outright majority, basically 2-1 over his nearest foe. that tracks with trump in that poll, his overall support in iowa at 51%. we said ted cruz in 2016 won the evangelical vote in iowa. he won the caucuses. this is a wildcard group in caucuses, first-time caucus-goers. here is a group that trump won in 2016, although it was close.

this was a group that kept trump in the game in 2016. when you look now in our poll at first-time caucus goers, trump with a 51-point advantage over his nearest foe here ron desantis. it's why he's been so consistently ahead in iowa. we are six days away from the caucuses. i will say we will have one final poll before the caucuses. it's the one the whole political world is usually waiting on. we'll see if there's any sign of late movement in either of those groups, because that's what it would take to make this close. >> thank you very much.

joining us is matt dixon. his new book is out today. we appreciate your coming on. congratulations on the book "swamp monsters." >> this is ron desantis and donald trump. ron desantis is a creature of trump's own power, according to donald trump. he was ahead in some of the republican polling a year ago. now trump has got the winning hand, particularly in iowa where desantis has spent most of his money, time and effort and tried to get that evangelical vote and

failed miserably. are you surprised by how this battle has played out with desantis going down and trump going up? >> my 2022 midterm mind when ron desantis was running high, he won by 20 points. at that point in time if you would have told me here's where we are a year from now, i would have been genuinely surprised. it became clear quickly that it was going to be tough sledding. i don't think anyone is going to argue that ron desantis ran the perfect campaign spoke to where the primary electorate are right now. >> there's another thing people have said. i've said this myself watching desantis on the national

campaign trail. we've seen governors in the past, people like pete wilson, rick perry, when you put them on the national stage, they weren't the political athletes that people thought they were. i wonder what you think, having watched desantis up close wlrks that aspect of this, do you think there's any chance he has the wherewithal to pull off a comeback to make himself a factor? >> it's much different. florida is a huge state. it's not really a ground game like the early presidential states. you can be somewhat untested in the grip and grin game and

become governor of florida. rick scott did it. no one will say he's a southern charming politician but he won one 30-second ad at a time. whether he runs again or tries to run again, i think there's some repair he has to do with republican primary voters. the trump base really has a distaste for the last name desantis right now. >> the new book "swamp monsters" is out today. matt dixon, congratulations on the book.

coming up on "morning joe," we are moments away from donald trump's immunity hearing in washington, d.c. we will bring you the audio of those oral arguments live right here. also, the issue that caused part of a plane to break loose mid flight may not be an isolated problem. andrew ross sorkin joins us with that. s with that liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ i think i'm ready for this. heck, yeah! with e*trade you're ready for anything. marriage. kids. college. kids moving back in after college. (applause) finally, we can eat. ♪ you know you make me wanna... ♪ and then we looked around and said, "wait a minute, this isn't even our stroller!" (laughter) you live with your parents,

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24 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." the trouble at boeing continues after safety inspectors found loose bolts on some grounded 737 max jets. the pressure is mounting on boeing ceo david calhoun who has called for a company-wide meeting to address the response.

let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. how many more planes are we talking about? and they found loose bolts? >> they just discovered them. this is in what's called the plug where they planned to have doors in certain planes where they use less seats inside they plug those exits. that's where they're finding loose bolts. lots of questions now about boeing, about the governance taking place at that campaign. david calhoun, who was brought in to try to right the ship, clearly with questions. a report out this morning about

spirit aerosystems, an employee quoting there were excessive amounts of defects and he, quote, believed it was just a matter of time until a major defect escaped to a customer. a lot of questions are going to be asked about this and what's happening at boeing. a new ceo at jetblue is coming in, a first female ceo. joanna garrity is joining the ranks as a ceo. robin hayes is stepping down. he had tried to buy spirit airlines in a deal that was blocked by the government. interestingly enough, he has said one of the reasons he's stepping down is his doctors

have told him to do so. everybody in the business world is talking about tiger and nike and the split and what it all means and what is tiger going to do next. that, of course, is the water cooler story of the morning. >> there you go. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. moments from now lawyers for donald trump are set to square off with the justice department inside this federal appeals court in washington, d.c. over trump's claim that he has absolute immunity from prosecution over efforts to overturn the 2020 election because of his status as president at the time. we're going to be back in two minutes with live audio of those oral arguments under way. e audie oral arguments under way

good morning. it's just about 9:30 a.m. eastern. i'm ana cabrera coming on early to bring you breaking news out of washington. donald trump arriving just moments ago at a federal courthouse in our nation's capital where an appeals court is about to hear arguments on whether trump is immune from prosecution involving his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. this will be the first time we get a live broadcast transmission of arguments while the former president is actually in court, but we will only be able to hear what's happening. the court is allowing audio only. also in the courtroom will be attorneys for special counsel jack smith arguing there is no broad immunity protecting presidents from being prosecuted for crimes committed while in office. we're joined by nbc's ken dilanian