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>> i want to promise you this, i am going to make sure that in no way do i enable donald trump to ever be president of the united states again. and that's more important than my own personal ambition. [ applause ]. >> breaking news from the presidential race, trump's most persistent critic on the campaign trail, chris christie, announces he is dropping out. also tonight, trump often claimed to have unlimited power as president. now his pitch for absolute power. and his claims of immunity from any legal consequences should be setting off alarm bells. and yet, all we're hearing from republicans are the sounds of silence. good evening, everyone. we begin tonight with breaking news. just one day since the attorney for the former president of the united states argued in federal

court that a president has the authority under the theory of absolute immunity to murder their political opponent. only one republican, one, reacted to that insane idea. former new jersey governor, chris christie. who up to about an hour ago was running for president against donald trump. the only republican to consistently and sharply criticize trump has dropped out of the race. and what he has had to say about trump and about his remaining opponents is where we begin tonight. just a short time ago in new hampshire, kristy said he no longer saw a path to the republican nomination. >> please understand this. i have known him well for 22 years. more than anybody else in this race has known him. and i can promise you this, if

you put him back behind the desk in the oval office and the choice comes and decision is needed to be made as to whether he puts himself first or he puts you first, how much more evidence do you need that he will pick himself? >> but even before the announcement made it official, apparently christie didn't realize his mic was still hot when he s this apparently speaking about donald trump's remaining rivals. >> yeah. that's what you get. yeah, i mean, he'd spent 68 million so far just on tv. 59 million by desantis and we spent 12. weight and who is getting a return on their investment. she's going to get smoked. you and i both know it. she's not up to this. >> she's still 20 points behind trump in hchb hn, right? >> yeah. >> he's still going to carry iowa? >> i talked to -- desantis

called me. petrified that i would -- >> he's probably getting out after iowa. >> i mean, ouch. but also no lies detected. in the meantime, he's not endorsing any other republicans for now, which given everything, doesn't seem entirely surprising. joining me now is general socky, host of inside with jen socky and michael steele, co. host of new morning show on msnbc called "the weekend," which premieres this saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern. and with my congratulations, my friend. >> thank you. >> i normally would do ladies first, but i have to come first to you, my brother. >> he'll be getting up really early. >> i remember the day. i remember the time. yo, chris christie. let's talk. he has known trump the longest out of everyone here. the hot mic thing, we're going to get to in a second. talk about what he had to say about donald trump today in that

epic -- >> what he said today is what he has been saying. and i hope people appreciate that this was not chris christie setting up, okay, let us help get through the primary process. this was a general election call that he was making to the country. he wasn't talking to that republican base in the primary. that off the mic, hot mic moment, sort of clarifies that for you if you were confused. but the reality of it is he is now, i think, putting himself out there as someone who is going to be in this campaign without actually being in it. >> uh-huh. >> yeah. >> i think that's important. i'll be honest, a lot of what he said i wish republicans had been saying for a long, long time. >> where are the rest of them? this is the point. >> they not there. >> donald trump's lawyer, michael steele -- >> yeah. >> went into a federal courthouse and said that the president of the united states has the absolute authority to have s.e.a.l. team 6 run a hit on their political opponent.

meaning by his logic, joe biden could have a hit against donald trump. and no one said anything except chris christie, what is happening? >> so the question to those folks is do you think it's okay that joe biden could order s.e.a.l. team 6 to call out a hit on donald trump? yes or no? because basically donald trump said that, yeah, as president he could do it. >> he said. >> so that's part one. but the question is they're not going to answer that question. they're not really going to get to it. what i think is important right now is what christie does next. how he takes this moment and turns it into potentially something that the democrats can work with. >> uh-huh. >> look, the truth of it is, if i'm joe biden sitting and i watch that, hey, chris -- >> get him on the phone. >> really appreciate what you just said. >> republicans for biden. >> what you just said to the country. you know? and he doesn't have to make any

more than a move that. in other words, connect that dot. because i think you're going to see christie play a role in this campaign that republicans will rue. >> he's liz cheney, adam kinzinger. look what happened to them, they were driven out of the party, lost their seats. can no longer serve in elected party. but none of them has been able to take that next step and say i now endorse the incumbent because he's not a madman. >> right. >> can chris christie do that? will he do it? >> can he do it, yes. will he do it, i don't think immediately. joe biden i worked for him for a year and a half. no question he picked up the phone and called governor christie. whether governor -- >> they have known each other. >> he's an old school politician. and christie is in some ways. did he take the call? i don't know. what i heard from the off mic, the caught mic, you know, love those moments. we all do. is he's still a little bitter,

feels a little perplexed as to why he didn't do better. he may not be ready yet. right? he had a lot to get off of his chest. he knows he can have a powerful voice. and if you read between the lines of what he said tonight, i mean, he kind of criticized joe biden a little bit. right? but he eviscerated trump. he clearly is angry at haley. he has to get over it. there's no unicorn coming into the race. if he really wants to prevent trump from getting elected, he is going to have to endorse. >> let me play one more thing he said. this is him talking about his republican rivals and this lets you in on why he is not endorsing any of them. let's listen. >> donald trump becomes the nominee of this party, the moment that it happened, was when nikki haley and ron desantis and tim scott and mike pence and doug burgum and vivek

ramaswamy stood on that stage in milwaukee in august. and when we were asked, would you support someone who is a convicted felon to be president of the united states, they raised their hands. >> boom. >> boom. >> doug burg um, we missed you. where have you been? >> what's important about that moment is he then lays out the bar which is if you cannot say that donald trump is unfit for office, then you yourself are unfit for the office. and that -- you put those two points together, what we just saw, in that statement about the fitness of office, you understand why he did not endorse. >> of course. >> and you understand why he will not endorse. and the other thing, keep in mind, everybody else got out of the race and haven't endorsed either. >> that's true. >> but he is the only one --

>> he's the only one. >> who has had the courage to go after donald trump by name. >> yeah. >> desantis didn't have the courage to do it. >> right. >> nikki haley. they're all sort of low-key still trump fans while they're running. he's the only one who did it. he is a significant player here. and the fact is that the danger he's calling out is the same danger that joe biden is calling out. that esper is calling out. >> that's exactly true. he has a lot of company among republicans or people who consider themselves conservative republicans. it was not two trumpers and more to moderate republicans and independents, there were a few moments where he sort of exposed maybe what he was talking on a therapist coach, right? >> yeah. >> which was basically looking back on his decision to endorse trump. and that message was to nikki haley and ron desantis and maybe doug burgum. >> he didn't just endorse him, jen. he led his transition team. he was a supporter of his. he knew what he was.

>> he remedied his actions in many ways since then. but that was sort of an admission. i heard that as a speaking to you're going to have to live with the consequences of the choices you make over the next ten months. >> he wasn't speaking to those who are running for the president. he was speaking to the party writ large. >> yes. >> he was speaking to that 70%, 60 to 70% of the rest of the gop. >> yeah. >> particularly those -- >> let me play more. they used to call him yesper. here he is saying what he wouldn't do. this is cut two from my wonderful director. >> eventually culminated that the long break, simmering break between he and myself in june of 2020 when he wanted to play active duty troops on the streets of washington, d.c. and suggested actually that we shoot americans in the streets. >> one more cut. this is esper saying what he thinks of trump. here is esper again. >> i do regard him as a threat

to demock smich democracy as we know it. our institutions. our political culture. all those things that make america great and defined us as the oldest democracy on this planet. >> jen, the seeds of republicans for trump are there. >> yes. >> there are republicans who are willing to say that. that guy is a republican. these are not liberals. these are not people who are liberal -- these are conservative republicans who worked for trump. >> yes. >> is president biden's campaign prepared in this moment to take full advantage of this, whether or not these people endorse him out right, when are they cutting these ads. >> they don't have to endorse him right out. they may not be willing to appear on ads. they have all sorts of channels. they talk to all sorts of people and they know how powerful mark esper's voice out there and a lot of these voices. frankly what he just said for -- i used to work in the national security world. people who are not political, consider themselves republicans, that's exactly who worked on the trump administration. that is exactly what they tell

you. that this is existential. that the threats he poses to national security are historically existential. yes,ly tell you, joy, i do think they are in touch through a range of channels. it doesn't mean they have to be in ads. he may not be in an ad. i don't think he'll be agree to be in an ad. >> what he'll say could be an ad. there you go. >> that's true. they should and they will, i think. >> i think the other part of this, which is fascinating, again, there's that campaign piece but then beneath the surface is what the president talked on -- touched on at valley forge. there's the democracy piece. and that's what es per was really -- that's what really got to him was, you want me to go shoot americans on the streets? >> yeah. >> of this country? no. that's not who we are. capturing that and taking advantage of it in a political space is going to be important. >> and i cannot say this enough because i cannot believe this is not the story all day, everyday.

esper was secretary of defense, he said he wouldn't shoot americans. donald trump's lawyers said he should have been able to shoot americans, kill them dead and trump should not have to pay a price for that with no consequences. >> this is madness. this is madness. we're not going to stop talking about this today because this is madness. we cannot let this stand. jen and michael will be back with us in a bit. but first, history has not been kind to fascist dictators and their enablers. so how do we explain, how do we explain trump's ability to turn so many of today's republican voters and elected officials away from democracy and towards increasingly open, outright, violent fascism? please make it make sense. "the reidout" continues after this. make sense. "the reidout" continues after this ♪ parodontax ♪ blood when brushing could be the start of a domino effect of gum disease. all of these signs could lead to worse. parodontax is clinically proven to reverse the signs

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get over here kids. time for today's lesson. wow. -whoa. what are those? these are humans. they rely on something called the internet to survive.

huh, powers out. [ gasp ] are they gonna to die? worse, they are gonna get bored. [ gasp ] wait look! they figured out a way to keep the internet on. yeah! -nature finds a way. [ grunt ] stay connected when the power goes out, with storm ready wifi from xfinity. and see migration in theaters now. okay. it should go without saying that murdering your political

opponent is not something any lawyer should ever support their client doing. but that is essentially what donald trump's lawyer walked into a federal courtroom and argued yesterday, that he could order a hit on his political rival or rivals using the united states military without facing any legal accountability. with all that is going on in the world, we can easily lose sight of how truly shocking and deeply disturbing that argument is. but it is imperative that we stop for a moment and come to grips with what this man is having his lawyers say to the world, to america, and to the courts. which is that he can do whatever he wants, including assassination and nothing should be able to stop him. it goes without saying that no person of sound mind would make this argument. which is why it has historically been the province of dictators, like vladimir putin, mussolini, stalin or hitler and not of

american presidents. putin poisons and imprisonens political opponents with zero consequences. mussolini arrested political opponents and endorsed fascist squad violence on his path to power. stalin led a violent political purge of his opponents that left more than a million people dead. and then there was adolph hitler, who before consolidating power said anyone who stands in our way will be cut down. he went on to lead a brutal crackdown on civil rights, freedom of expression, he outlawed political opponents, and had roughly 11 million jews and others exterminated. the paths to these dictatorships have been paved with claims echoed by donald trump. and it is beyond astounding that his ostensibly highly educated attorney walked into a court of law and made the legal case for political violence without

consequences. and outside of chris christie, nary a word of condemnation was uttered by the republican party. honestly, the media didn't do much better. chalking up this argument to a seemingly bold idea or a generic immunity claim. it is also notable that at no point have any of his lawyers in any of his cases encompassing 92 criminal counts argued that trump is innocent. in fact, implied in their defenses is that he did do what he is being accused of doing. but that he had the right to do it. joining me now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former senior member of the mueller probe and tim o'brien, senior executive etd tor of bloomberg opinion. thank you for being here. you have been here offset while i've been losing my mind about this, literally since yesterday, andrew, since i listened to this hearing. my jaw dropped. >> yep. >> i would love to get your unfiltered reaction to it and to

the brilliant questioning by these three judges. >> yeah. particularly -- all three were great -- we talked about judge pan was a stand out. i think what you're focussing on is so important, which is the normalization of crazy. if you go back to when trump said i could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and think about what you all -- what i remember what i thought about it. i just couldn't believe my ears. >> yeah. >> what person -- not politician. what person says that? >> right. >> then add a politician running to be president of the united states. and i was thinking, this is just unbelievable. and we just had an argument in the courts that had legal dressing up of essentially that argument. >> yeah. >> which was -- there's no way it's going to win. but it was normalized in the sense that there was sort of

respectful, sort of back and forth as to why it is wrong. and that in some ways that's a testament to the rule of law, but it is also a testament to sort of the how much trump gets us used to the crazy. >> yes, yep. >> and to your point in referencing these various leaders, sort of bealty of evil. >> yeah. >> and just how widespread it is, whether it's lawyers, whether it's republicans who are complicit -- obviously not all republicans are, but the members of congress. >> they sure are quiet. >> exactly. and who is not sitting there saying what seems so obvious, which is president said, which is condemning violence. period. on either side. i mean, this is not a controversial -- conversation. this is the conversation you used to have in grade school about this. and now we have to have it in this format because we have lost it as one of the american norms. so that's my sort of big picture.

>> yeah. >> i think focussing on how much this has been normalized is really key. >> and i have to say that even for my profession, i feel that every single journalist who approached a member of congress, house or senate, should have been asking them, do you agree that the president of the united states should be able to order seal team 6 to assassinate someone? i remember when every democrat was asked, do you condemn jeremiah wright? this was just a pastor of the man running for president. this is actually the lawyer of the man running for president. and here is why i think they should be asked it. jamie raskin yesterday i think made an excellent point because they are saying that the immunity goes away only if the president is not just impeached but convicted in the senate. here is jamie raskin explaining why that is not a way to get to justice. >> they're saying they have a right to engage in political assassination of their rivals. and if you can kill one person, certainly you can kill several

of them. well, let's say then they feel like they might be convicted in the senate, but if they could just knock off three people who are going to vote to convict him, then he would be all right. then they go ahead and murder them. then he can't be convicted, then he can't be prosecuted. >> game, set, match, tim. >> game, set, match because i think -- in addition to normalizing trump's behavior, the next step is enabling it or weaponizing it. and that's what this large codry of advisers, politicians, enablers of various stripes have always done around him. and there are some around him who are along for the ride. they like being in the halo of his celebrity or power or the fact that he's center stage. there's others who should know better. and you know, the top of the show, you went through our famous list of 20th century dictators. andrew just referenced -- one of

the hitler biography, early moment in 1930s when hitler took power and the german industrial class and traditional german conservatives thought that hitler would be useful idiot, that he was somebody who could keep the labor movement down and restore order amid chaos. and he was this crazy guy. everyone around him liked to wear uniforms and do parades and get in bar brawls but they could manage him. and at the one point in the book where he talks about that moment, they're all about to learn what it meant to ride the back of a tiger. i think that's where we are right now with trump. everyone who thought say the bill barrs of the world of mitch mcconnells of the world who thought that trump could be is ka jewel for them to achieve either legislative or legal goals they had for themselves and could control him have been proven wrong. the other idiots who don't know beterer still complicit. now we're at a point where the

argument being made is that he should be able to do anything he wants. that no civic norms apply to him. that the rule of law doesn't apply to him. and that the courts themselves are jihadists and that they're persecuting him and he's a victim. >> right. >> which he recognizes and plays it up for his own base who also feel victimized. >> let me play, donald trump takes advantage of people's light understanding of civics. he clearly does not understand what article 2 powers are. here he is explaining mitt ch i think most people don't either so he takes advantage. here is donald trump saying he can do whatever he wants. >> more importantly, article 2 allows me to do whatever i want. >> it's a thing called article 2. nobody ever mentions article 2. it gives me all of these rights at a level that nobody has ever seen before. we don't even talk about article 2. >> when the president does it, it's not illegal? >> i'm just saying a president under article 2 it's very strong. read it. do you have article 2, read it. >> i have in article 2 where i

have the right to do whatever i want as president. but, i don't even talk about that. >> and andrew, most people will never read article 2 of the constitution. they don't know what he's talking about. they just assume he's right. >> george stephanopoulos was referring to that quote came from richard nixon to david frost, a journalist, saying if the president does it, it's legal by definition. you know what, that's not why we had a revolution in the 18th century. that was to get away from that. and i think what this election is about is whether people actually care about that principle. it really is this divergence of somebody who is being very blatant. this is not -- you don't have to guess about this. >> right. >> he is i am actually planning on not complying with the laws, the constitution. i am going to reimpose the kind

of rules that we fought against when we had a revolution. do you care? >> right. >> and that's why this really is about us. and it's about civic lessons and the sort of heart break, i think, of the first trump presidency was how much, at least in my case, how much i thought norms were really still embedded. i knew there were injustices and there were things to fight over. >> right. >> but i thought these were things that you didn't look past. >> yeah. and the other piece -- very quickly for you, tim. there's also the b.s. factor for trump. >> yes. >> trump was supposed to testify in his other case he's freaking out about, the money case in d.c. -- i mean in new york. he's not going to testify anymore because the rules said he couldn't go and do a political speech and he couldn't yell at the clerk. and so, he's like, no. i'm not -- he was never going to testify. let's just be clear. >> well, the only reason he was there was to engage in political theater. >> correct. >> he doesn't know anything

about the court processes work. yesterday after the hearing, he said there's bedlam if these courts prosecute me, there will be bedlam. he has used that word throughout his whole career any time the system comes at him in a way he doesn't like. when ed referred to zone a piece of property trump wanted on the west side, he said there's bedlam in new york. i couldn't get zoned. he has no sense of proportion. and he has no sense of civility or the rule of law. so he'll simply say, it's chaos because i'm not getting what i want. >> yeah. and there's nothing more dangerous than an ignorant man who believes he has absolute power surrounded by people too weak and too cowardly to stand in his way. thank you both very much. coming up, his lawyer argues that trump could order the assassination of a political opponent and not be prosecuted. it's freaking bad. it's how his republican ideas are okay with this idea that is truly, deeply disturbing.

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here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. alas, we have reached the political assassinations are okay era in trumpian politician. with toigs's attorney making the absurd claim that trump has absolute immunity from criminal prosecution related to his acts while in office. >> i asked you yes or no question. could a president who ordered seal team 6 to assassinate a

political rival who wasot impeached, would he be subject to criminal prosecution? >>f he were impeached and convicted first. >> so your answer isno? >> my answer is qualified yes. there's a political process that would have to occur under the structure of our constitution require msnbc and conviction by our senate. >> there's probably no other acts that defines tyranny, absolute power or fascism more than being able to order the military that you are commander in chief of to kill a political rival and not be prosecuted. as long as congress is cool with it. this is how low the modern republican party has sunk. because not only is this ridiculous anti-democratic claim part of trump's defense, but the republicans refuse to condemn or even acknowledge it. the only person to even mention the assassination comment is the only presidential opponent willing to come out swinging against trump. the guy who dropped out of the race today, chris christie. he wasn't even asked about it, by the way, by the media. he brought it up himself at a

rally. >> makes you feel warm and fuzzy about the possibility him becoming president again, doesn't it? he thinks he could do that, not only thinks he could do it but get away with it and not be subject to crime. i mean, look, who do we want to be? >> beyond christie, but republicans addressed the assassination comment other than vague statements about presidential immunity from folks like mitch mcconnell, a stunning development for a party whose founder was assassinated. back with me, jen psaki and michael steele. i mean -- >> yeah. >> you can't write it. >> you can't write it. >> the irony of it. we were talking before you left in the previous break, there is this progression that you see happen with supporters of trump. >> right. >> where he does the "access hollywood" tape, i can grab them by the hoo hoo and then republicans start by saying, he didn't say that. then they say, well, maybe he said it but it was locker room talk and then finally gets to, he can say it and women -- i can

never unsee the women, some look liked grandmothers, wearing t-shirts on their bodies saying trump can grab me by my -- >> right, right. >> well, that is the progression. and that is part of the ethos of wanting to be a part of something, one. number two, defending the thing you want to be a part of. because if you are articulating something, a value set or principle or set of ideas that i like and jen attacks me or i attack you if you're articulating that, what's my natural response. i'm going to go after her. i'm going to defend you. >> uh-huh. >> and so you see more and more of that progression as we get. what used to break that progression within the rank and file were political leaders. oh hell no we're not doing that. >> right. >> we're not doing that today, boo. back up. >> right. >> so when the john society tried to join up with the gop in the late '50s and '60s.

no, no, no. time out. we're not doing it. bob dole said if you can't ride with me then leave because we're not doing this racial thing that's growing inside the party. >> that's right. democrats had to essentially do the same thing with the dixie cats. they sad to say, alabama governor, you can run for something. >> but you're not running here. >> can't have a nomination here. >> there is this thing where i think people think that american exceptionalism means we can't have fash nichl. >> right. >> but there are countries who we like to visit who we think of lovely western democracies like italy for instance. let's put up a picture in roma italy. look what peoe are putting up. sure look like the hail hitler fascist sign. now to the united states, when donald trump was elected, here is what richard spencer, the guy who invented the term alt-right basically just means clan but in suits. here is what he and his friends were doing. at an alt-right conference in washington, d.c. where trump's victory was met with cheer. let's look at it.

>> hail trump. hail our people. hail victory. >> can you see what people are throwing up there in the crowd? >> look, i think what is lost often is this is not just about containing trump. trump's a rival on the scene and dominance of the republican party has been a little bit like, you know that moment in where munch kin land, come out, come out wherever you are. it's like come out, come out wherever you are white supremacists. this has given them license to be out in public and build more supporters. and when he says i'm -- i can grab anyone's hoo ha to use your language or shoot anyone on a street, he did grab someone's hoo ha. he hasn't literally shot someone on the street. other people are listening to him, watching him and saying, wow. he's like calling out -- he's calling out racist language. i can do that, too. he's going and attacking his political rivals. i can do that, too. ky use political violence.

i can go march on the capitol. i can go use a hammer. that's what's being created here. it's not just trump himself. it's the movement. >> here is the question for you, jen, i'll let you in. i'll let you in. how does joe biden fight that? because joe biden does traditional politics. and it seems to me that traditional politics is not appropriate for the fight against pure fascism. >> yeah. >> so talk about the messaging and communications challenge for the incumbent president who is a politician in the traditional sense but what he's fighting is so asymmetric, how do you run that campaign? >> well, i would say first f you look at -- if we had this conversation a week and a half ago, i would say there needs to be more of it. but the two speeches he gave last friday and last monday are part of that. right? that is making a very clear argument about what's at stake. some of the language and comparisons he used in that speech on monday, they were pretty historic in how bold they were. >> and strong. >> and strong. now i spent a day with the

campaign on tuesday because the key thing is what's happening behind the scenes, to your point. >> right. >> and how they see it is there's speeches, there's joe biden campaigning but a lot of what is going to happen is going to be targeting voters, it's going to be private conversations and whether it's online, whether it's neighbor to neighbor, things along those lines. yes, you'll see campaign ads. you'll see speeches, but a lot of this is equipping and empowering their supporters with how they should talk about this to people that they need to bring along with them. >> you know what the challenges i think, michael, too. >> what's that? >> is that traditional politics is slow at getting me the things i want. the hammer is quick. and so biden does traditional politics an gets a little bit of student loans and gets some things. he gets the chips act which is great but it's down the road before it kicks in. trump says i'm going to build a wall, ban muslims. it's quicker. people who are frustrated that it takes so long to get things done, it almost is like he's appealing to people's frustration and their boredom with politics. >> but okay. and that's absolutely right.

but here is the rub. he ain't get it done either. remember, we were doing infrastructure every week for four years. >> infrastructure week on every white house schedule. >> every white house schedule. he didn't get it done either. >> people don't remember that. >> then ask yourself why? why don't you remember that for four years you could not get infrastructure done. but in six months under biden you did. so why don't you remember -- and you resent that. you're mad about all of that. you don't think that's real and it didn't happen. what is that shovel in the ground over there doing? why don't you see that and yet and still you look at what trump did and think that he did all this stuff for you. >> right. when people say i like the policies. what policies? >> you know what the difference is, he talked the hell out of it. >> come on. >> trump ain't do jack and kept runening his mouth about what he wasn't doing as if he was doing it. >> yeah. >> joe biden did it and didn't tell anybody. >> yeah. >> and that's the difference how

people perceive it. so to your point about folks not feeling that, you know, anything is getting done, it got done. it's just you didn't know about it. we were talking about the filibuster for 18 months while joe biden's team was getting all this other stuff done in the congress. working the deal with mitch mcconnell, working the deal with kevin mccarthy. >> it's politics, regular politics. >> it's politics. and politics is slow. it's not this boom, boom, boom. >> you know what, there was a similar critique of barack obama, right? >> uh-huh. >> which is look, both biden and trump gave people a stimmy. trump put his giant stupid-looking magic marker signature on it and people forgot biden did it all. >> trump lost and also people thought biden was going -- obama was going to lose and he won. so i think the other thing that's hard right now is we're seeing a lot of this through the prism of the republican electorate. that is what we were talking about. the republican electorate is not the national electorate. who there are other channels,

right? they need to be energizesed, turn out and care what this election means for them. that's a big challenge. but a lot are not tuned in quite yet. >> they're not. and you know what, it's all funny and fun and games until the person he's talking about sending seal team 6 to kill is you. and -- i mean, i'm just keeping it real. republicans said you can hit people with their car if they're protesting. desantis said that. they're stealing women's bodily rights. do you think that really you're going to be protected from trump if he can kill people? come on, y'all. wake up. jen psaki, michael steele. we can do this all day. accusations are flying fast and furious as the u.n.'s highest legal body prepares to hear south africa's case accusing israel of committing genocide in gaza. we're back after this. ommitting genocide in gaza we're back after this.

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tomorrow the u.n.'s highest legal body, the international court of justice, will begin hearings in a case accusing israel of committing genocide against palestinian people during its bombardment of gaza. the charge is being led by south africa. which is accusing israel of killing, injuring and cing palestinian civilians and denying them food, water and ntia denying them food, water, and other essentials in a way that is intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part of the palestinian

national, racial, and ethnic group. allegations israel categorically denies. ahead of the trial israeli government spokesperson elon levy accused south africa of adcang for the devil. in a news briefing today called south africans claims observed blood libel, saying the nation's capital city, pretoria, is giving political and legal cover to the hamas rapist regime. south african president also address the issue today during a eulogy for an anti apartheid activist, saying, as a people who once tasted the bitter fruits of dispossession, discrimination, and state sponsored violence, we are clear that we will stand on the right stand side of history. trying to me is daniel levy, president of the u.s. middle east project and former israeli negotiator. daniel, thank you for being here. what do you think is the significance of israel's decision to act, to

aggressively defend this? they have brought in a storied lawyer, a holocaust survivor. they brought him here to defend them. you have also seen south africa lawyer up with an eighth team of lawyers from around the world including ireland. they're both taking this very seriously. how serious of the consequences of these hearings? >> it is very serious, and despite the rather flippant and pathetic statement that you read out there from the israeli spokesperson, the israelis are nervous about this. they are rattled. in fact, you could say that you're already seeing a bit of caution and what they are saying. not necessarily in what they're doing in gaza. but to the extent that you may see israel feel it has to do certain things on the humanitarian front, i think it's because this is consequential and south africa has probably done more already to shift what is going on in gaza than three months of hand

wringing and meaningless rhetoric backed up by zero action from the u.s. administration, including the latest visit by blinken. south africa actually said to the israelis, santa note to the israelis saying this is a concern. the israelis don't respond. their efforts at the u.n., at the international criminal court. now this is the way to take it forward. there's significant international support including from brazil. and for the first time israel is having to seriously defend itself. i would urge people, if they have the time, to read the south african application to the international court of justice. the court will be asked to adjudicate on these matters. >> now the statements that we have heard coming out of some israeli officials, including netanyahu, talking about the armand lack or saying that they

want to make gaza uninhabitable and do make gaza unlivable. do those play into these hearings? >> absolutely. this isn't just about whether genocide is happening. there's a question of intent and there's a question here of a risk and part of the case being put forward by south africa's these more genocidal statements from the top tier of israeli leadership. not normally one tries to hide crimes. but in this case you don't need to be an investigator, you just need to go on tiktok to see how extreme the genocidal ambition is. but then you look at the material commission conditions on the ground, that level of discretion, risk of starvation, the spread of disease, 85% of

the population displaced, destruction of courts, administrative buildings. the israeli immediate decision to prevent access to food, fuel, medicine, et cetera. when you take all of that together, the court will then have to decide, much does it call on israel to stop? does it say it's all okay? does it say you have to have a very serious course correction? the court could also say that it is important to maintain evidence. but one thing israel has done as prevented as investigators and in journalists, sometimes targeted journalists, from going into palestine. whether those who have incited to genocide themselves need to be held accountable. of course whatever the court says will not self implement. it's going to be up to israel to decide how to respond but other states to decide how they will respond. will america say, you know what, we don't give a darn what the court says, or will they biden

administration so we have to take it seriously. does it shift a willingness to provide arms to israel, to continue to conduct this action? >> it is important. an important questions who are asking there, daniel levy, thank you. always a pleasure. that is tonight reidout. i'll be back at ten pm with a great rachel maddow for a special caucus countdown to discuss what is ahead during the iowa caucuses on monday. all in with chris hayes is coming right after this we break. right after this we break. break. >>

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