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simone sanders-townsend, joined by my coherence, alicia menendez and michael steele. the clock just struck midnight a couple of hours ago. three republican candidates made their case why they should be the republican party's nominee in the 2024 presidential election. former south carolina governor nikki haley and florida governor ron desantis sparred in a debate hedrick university in des moines. meanwhile, the front runner of the republican party, former president donald trump, took a break from court appearances to take questions in a fox news town hall. in this town hall, he said absolutely nothing new. it was the same lies, same talking points and essentially a rally with questions. let me be clear, folks, the only normal aspect of tonight's debate was the presence of podiums. the candidates took the stage just after vocal trump critic, former new jersey governor chris christie, suspended his campaign, refusing to endorse any of his former opponents.

in a normal world, a reelection losing, 91 felony counts facing, twice impeached front runner, who did not show up to debate at anything, would be a prime candidate -- a prime target for any candidate hoping to take the lead, right? that's in normal times. but haley aunt desantis, they decide to focus on the elephant not in the room. they said instead, they saved their most ruthless barbs for each other. take a look. >> we need to stand up for the people and not bow down to corporations. and we know nikki haley will cave to the woke mob every single time. >> you're invisible in new hampshire. you are visible in south carolina. you're in fifth place. you have $150 million, you've gone down in the polls in iowa. why should we think you can manage or do anything in this country. >> you can take the ambassador out of the united nations, but you cannot take the united nations out of the ambassador. >> you are so desperate, you're just so desperate.

>> this debate was the last big chance for the candidates in the race to move the needle in iowa. because we are just days away from the iowa caucuses on monday. the first in the nation's nominating contest is more than 300 days, 588 campaign events, and $100 million in the making. but did islands and voters in other early nominating states walk away tonight with a deeper understanding our knowledge of each candidate's vision, or was it just ruffled feathers on display in the hawkeye state? well, what do you all think? >> that's actually how i, watch it i watched thinking if i were a voter who are still persuadable, was there something i learned tonight that could've persuaded me? if i was a voter who is thinking about staying home, was i persuaded to come out and vote? i did not think there was any additional clarity offered to a voter who might not have their mind made up at this point in the game. because this debate ignored the core dynamic, which is the fact that donald trump's trouncing

both of these folks. so they've clearly showed up thinking i've got to destroy this single opponent. but to what end? >> well, the and was the point. the end of this campaign. the end of -- >> because they both wanted to be? over >> because they both wanted it to be over at this point. iowa, this but track through iowa as been painful for everyone. why? because donald trump from every turn pumped them from the beginning and throughout. the disrespect he showed them by not showing up, and just the barbs he would throw in and out. so they were shadow boxing the entire time. and when you got to the point where it was just the two of them on the stage, what did we see? we saw -- literally mealymouthed politician in the first 30 seconds of the opening salvo. desantis comes out swinging.

did not establish a narrative for himself, take that moment to address iowans in the country, came out swinging. and that's because at this point, he knows he's in such a desperate situation because in a weird way, trump has force both of them into this box they define themselves in. they're trying to punch drunk themselves out of it, and they can't. and that's the kind of fighting you saw. as a chairman, at a certain point, i would've pulled my candidate off the stage and say, dude, you've got to rethink what you are doing here. because this is not, to your point, alicia, this is not how you are going to make your closing argument. you gotta make that closing argument five days out from one voters vote. and they wasted a lot of time. i treated -- >> arguing with each other. >> i tweeted this thing was over 20 minutes in. >> first, i think two things. i think to ron desantis's credit, words i didn't think i would say tonight, he was

better in this debate than any other debate i've seen. >> barr being low. >> the bar was all on the ground. >> but he was better. i think he was better than the last couple of debates. i did not see awkward smile. he seemed to be a little bit more comfortable. the debate prep was working. that being said, i don't think either candidate, and i saw brianne pfannenstiel on with my colleagues a little earlier, nothing happened in this debate. and frankly in the town hall from donald trump that is going to fundamentally move the needle. and a week out from iowa, you are looking for a big shift, a proverbial bomb if you will, that's what folks should be using this last debate to do, to show up strong. and i don't think either one of them did. they showed up small, and i did not see a president on that debate stage. >> i agree. that is the key thing. because in the last three debates -- actually, all of the prior debates. nikki haley, to me, came off as the most presidential. tonight, she start -- she tried.

to her credit, she tried to come out with this generational shift argument that she wanted to make. and desantis kept pulling her back and pulling her back to the point where she just became so exasperated with him. and that's the bite we have with her, but you spent all your money, you've fallen down in the polls, that was like a mother chastising her child. >> i hate when the candidates ponded. >> i the same reaction to, mom, dad, please don't fight. >> i just keep thinking back to the fact that three of us were earlier today when the news broke that chris christie, former governor of new jersey, was going to drop out of this 2024 campaign. we all questions at the time the timing of his dropping out, his choice to do that in advance of this debate. with that potentially force the issue forward of his core argument, which is unless you're willing to say donald trump is unfit to be president, then you yourself are unfit to be president? that dynamic did not really

play out. they went after each other instead of going after trump. >> i agree. i will say on the questions of, i know we will play a little bit of clips in a little while, but on the question of the constitution and government and january 6th, i did here -- i mean, we got as close up to the line as they could possibly go without saying the thing. on general sixth, nikki haley noted that she thought jason's terrible, don trump thinks it's a great day. and donald trump is gonna have to answer for what he said under six. ron desantis says he believes in the constitution, and the constitution, as george washington said, i will note, ron desantis has unceremoniously removed two duly elected states attorneys in florida who have sued him in court to get their jobs back. again, i don't know how that scores with the constitution. so i guess i will also note a lot of the conversation on the stage, we often talk about how

trumpism and the modern-day republican operandi's is not really about policy. trump is not about policy at all. the policies do matter and what he has said matters and there was a town hall where he said a lot of things like taking credit for the overturning of roe versus wade and did it in six seconds. but we heard policy particularly in on the debate stage, i also think on that town hall in iowa, from voters, because that is where people are gonna make the decisions when they go caucus. >> the big answer is more policy oriented answers. >> correct, they were not. >> i will let you finish your point, but i want to put a pin on. that they were not policy -oriented answers. and that's a problem for a lot of the voters you're talking. but >> i mean, it made sense to me. and that's bringing someone actually on the ground there at the debate, i want to bring in our nbc colleague ali vitali. she's join us live from des moines, iowa. ali, you heard our takes. what do you think? closing argument, maybe maybe

not. and we heard a lot of policy questions but to the chairman's point, not a lot of policy answers, heavy, except social security. >> yeah, first of all, when michael steele said that this is a trudge through iowa, i felt that through my soul, you guys. because this is truly felt that way. and we've covered these presidential cycles before, you think that once you get to a stage where it's not a people talking over each other, you get 2 to 3 people on the stage, you sort of hope for a more substantive discussion, maybe you'll hit a few policy points. instead, this is just really an all-out slugfest. and i think the thing i noticed immediately was right off the bat, yes, you had desantis going off with mealymouthed. you had haley a mediately pointing to the way he is just squandered tens of millions of dollars on his presidential build, only two and up in second, maybe third, in the state that he really laid all his hopes on, which is here in iowa. it was attacks from the get-go.

but the attacks were almost done in buzzwords, because all of these attack ads have already been on the airwaves in places like iowa, places like new hampshire, we've heard all these different criticisms between the candidates on the stump before. there were moments when, frankly, there were so many different and disparate attack lines, it was kind of hard to follow along. and the fact that he did not have a commercial break for the first 50 minutes of that debate, i do think it was a little bit drawing to a voter who might have wanted to show up and hear a plan for what i haley, or what a desantis administration might look like. i think there were points of that, and for those of us who cover 2020 and the democratic primary, the idea that you could only have one glancing question in a brief conversation about health care policy is completely shocking. because we went through debates in 2020 with the democrats that were 30 minutes of deep policy debate on the role of health care and how government should play a role in that. this is just a completely different primary, one that really functions off of

national trends, not necessarily the time the candidates spent on the ground in iowa. and these debates stages are so incomplete in the way that they are structured, simply because trump has taken himself out of it. and none of the other candidates have seemed to adjust to their debate stage tragedy to account for the fact that they are not going against each other, they are all fighting a phantom who is not on the stage. >> speaking of that phantom, it seems to me, ali vitali, the biggest news out of this week was the fact that presidents -- an attorney for the former president of the united states making the argument that a president should be shielded from prosecution even for doing something like attempting to assassinate political enemies simply because he was the united states president. i don't understand how you don't reckon with that on the debate stage. to your point about that phantom, it's not just speaking about donald trump because he is the front runner. it's not just speaking about donald trump because he's on the debate stage, speaking

about donald trump because it's very candidacy challenges our democracy and our rule of law. and it would seem impossible to vie for the presidency of the united states without reckoning with that core reality. >> and i think that's the point that chris christie was. making because the four of us experienced his speech and his drop out together this afternoon, it was clear that that dropout came at that point, so he could not be on the stage, then at least steer the conversation in the way that he attempted his entire candidacy. i actually thought that it was a great way to try to get these candidates to engage on the issue of trump without overtly engaging on trump himself, this idea that presidents should be immune from everything, immune from being able to be pressed or tried on anything that they did while acting as president. but i thought it was a good way to try to get to a place with these candidates where they had not considered going before. because you are, right they continuously tell us, these candidates have a tendency to say that the media only wants to watch them attack the former president. and that is not the goal of

these questions as you guys will know. the goal is to think about how these candidates conceptualize and believe in the ideology of being president. how would they act in the oval office? and the certainly the ways that trump tried to bend but thankfully not break the norms and traditions of what it means to be american president, all the signs are key discussion points now in this 2024 election. if they want to be the successor to trump and the next republican nominee, i think those are valid answers. and i was stunned watching nikki haley, for example, say the obvious part, which was of course presidents should not be able to do whatever they want while president and never face any consequence for that. but she immediately pivoted that line of thinking into an attack on ron desantis lying. i think there were some really abrupt pivots there, because there is such an uncomfortable lady in talking about the former president among these folks who have to go through him if they want to get to the nomination. i think the other thing that i

found so striking is that even though symone his right to point out the ways these candidates were willing to be somewhat critical of donald trump, whether it was on january 6th or election denialism or what have you, they did not go further on the stage than they have ever gone throughout the primary. primary will often say on the stump, or at least on this is brought up to her, that she thinks it was a terrible day on january 6th and donald trump calls it a beautiful day. and there is sort of an interesting dynamic here that i have been noticing in talking to haley voters. i've met people who have voted for trump twice. they hit their breaking point on january 6th and are now turning towards haley. but she is not necessarily been a leading beacon, speaking out about january 6th and the former presidents role on it. i'm interesting if these voters feel like they're being sold short of their hearing enough from her on this. but certainly, the criticism did not go further than we've seen it go before. >> ali, i would pick up on that point about the voters. because i think it's important, a lot of the focus is on the people in the stage.

but one of the things party officials on operatives are focused on while the thing is going on on the stage is how the audience, not those in the room, but outside the room are picking on up on what's happening and how this is moving, particularly this close to when they get to make that choice. what have you heard in the days leading up to tonight and what do you anticipate from your experience going over the next five days, to your point about what may or may not move these voters based on what they saw tonight. >> i think that you have to consider iowa as a police that is still trump country. nikki haley isn't coming in here and say she is going to beat trump, not even desantis is saying that anymore, though he did put all his eggs in the iowa basket, so to speak. when i was voters, though they want to be spoken to, the ones that i have met that are still undecided are actively listening to these candidates coming out to events. this is trump country.

there's an immovable block of people, the majority percentage if you look at the polls, that are still going to come out and caucus for the former president. caucuses are things that reward enthusiasm and confidence and energy behind a candidate. because they were quite sitting in gyms or other large spaces with other members of your committee to control and caucus and be together for several hours. but at the same time, i do think there is an opening for someone, obviously not to win here, but sure that trump is not inevitable by using it as a springboard into the next state. of course, that's the strategy that the healy campaign by and large is employing for themselves. but because trump is not on the stage, i do think that a, voters miss out on him defending his record of course. but politically speaking, i think it looks like a savvy decision that he does not have to sit here and get gained upon by the rest of the field. he's been able to float above it and quite frankly look like he is above the fray, even as a tackle each other, like they did tonight.

>> like they did tonight. nbc's ali vitali, thank you very much, stay warm out there in iowa. and bring us any news that you have. you know, donald trump, the elephant not in the room, i want to play for you all what ron desantis had to say about donald trump's absence on the debate stage tonight. >> donald trump should be on the stage. >> every candidate needs to earn your vote. nobody is entitled to your vote. and he comes in here every now and again. he does a steal, and then he leaves. i've shown up to all 99 counties because it's important. your servant of the people, not a ruler over the people. and that's the sudden i will be. >> [applause] >> so while nikki haley and ron desantis we're in a battle for second place at drake university, the front runner, donald trump, was less than two miles away, taking questions on everything from abortion to involvement in wars overseas. folks, stay with us, because we'll break down the highs, lows, jaw-dropping moments, the

crazy from donald trump's town hall. >> i think he was the right president at the right time. i agree with a lot of his policies. but his way is not my way. i do not have vengeance. i don't have vendettas. i don't take things personally. for me, it's very much about no drama, no whining, and getting things done. so i don't think president trump is the right president to go forward. i think it's time for a new generational leader. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction.

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ploy. trump is a dictator, he wants to be a dictator. you know it's interesting, i did a show with sean hannity. did you ever hear of him? he's a very nice man. he said essentially you are not going to be a dictator, are you. tell me, i think he was trying to give me a nicer question than you guys were. he meant it very well, he said i'm going to be a dictator. for one day -- two things, the border, we're gonna make it so tight you can't get in unless you commit legally. and the other's energy. we are going to drill, baby, drill. after that, i'm not going to be a dictator. >> [applause] >> after that, i'm not going to be a dictator. >> so you are saying that if the courts -- >> so the press fixed it up so it was i'm going to be a dictator for monday. they cut it. they have me going i'm going to be a dictator. they cut the rest of the sentence. no, no, i'm not going to be a dictator. >> and there you have, it that is donald trump at this town hall tonight contradicting himself in realtime as he tries

to say he is not going to be a dictator, and then in the same breath, admits that he will in fact be a dictator if elected again, but just for one day. beyond his admission, trump continue to live throughout the town hall, carrying forward his typical playbook ice as a try to make the list of things they need to fact-check. grandiose proclamations -- >> did you have the paper? >> no, and at some point the team got mad at me, yelling out the door he says he had the greatest economy in u.s. history. well, fact check on, but you know that's not true. it almost becomes too big of a task. so i want to stick on this point of him saying i won't, i will be a dictator. because it is not consolidated to that exchange. you also have him saying he wants to use the power of the justice department levy against his political opponents. >> so here's the thing to all of the mega heads out there. when you hear someone say -- if joe biden said, you know, my second term, i want to be a dictator. what is your reaction to that?

because the question i have heard trump's do you know what the word dictator means? >> i think he's clear. >> and if you do, why are you using it, unless that's what you want to be? there has not been in the history of the world, let alone the united states, anyone who's assumed power and just said, okay, i just wanted for a day. i'm just going to run everything in the universe for a day. >> and then i will be satiated. >> and then i'll be satiated. i will give you the power back. so the reality is donald trump acting like this never little boy, who's like, oh, they're just trying to say all these nasty little things about me, and none of it is true. he's full of crap. and the fact that fox sat there and did not double down, triple down, and make him make the point to the country what his real intent is is just bad journalism. but it's worse for those who have actually give license to

that in the broader public by thinking that somehow, alicia and symone, that in march of 2025, donald trump, after having had success at shutting down the border, except for those who commit legally, and we know -- [laughter] that's not going to happen, right? because even if you come in legally, he's got to find a reason to kick you out. and all the other things he says he wants to do that he's just going to now turn around -- while, i'm done with that, and i will give power back to the other two branches of government. i will return the power back to the states to decide, it's not happening. so i think that moment in that conversation, to me, was chilling. because you saw the acquiescence of a pliable, complacent press and the ambition of a very dangerous man. >> a dangerous man.

there was another exchange between him and brett bear. we're brett bear says you say a lot of moralities. and i'm paraphrasing here, he says you say a lot of rallies. how much of your second term would be about retribution or looking forward? >> and trump sits there calmly with a straight face and he says i won't have much time for retribution. and then he starts talking about president xi taking in 400 billion dollars. and says i won't have much time for retribution. there will be success, no retribution, there will be success. >> it's peak gaslighting. but it's dangerous. but i was a struck by -- sometimes donald trump does these things would provide. oh like he's yelling, he's got incoherent sentences. >> word salad, yeah. >> word salad. but sitting in that town hall, he looked, quote unquote, normal. and there is nothing normal about this election, nothing norm was what donald trump said. and often time because people and candid specifically say

these insane crazy things, but in a tone just like this, i'm speaking very normally, and yes, i will be a dictator. oh, there will be no retribution, saying this many times on camera. i think people have become moment to it. and we cannot excuse that. and that is what -- i was very concerned by this, by many parts of the town hall. this is the part that really just struck me viscerally. because there are people, hearing him say this, that still are going to go out there and support him. there are a lot of people who will caucus for trump on monday. >> i think you're being generous by calling it the town hall, because it essentially operate like a pep rally for him. >> pepperoni with questions from the crowd. >> they'd say who are? supporting donald trump. you'd say thank you so much, i love you so much. there weren't a lot of hard-hitting questions. and there certainly wasn't a reckoning around the way in which, as we often talk about, his many legal troubles and how it not just impacts him as a candidate, but how that affects whether or not voters should

consider him for another term. i think that's an interesting piece in all of this, how should voters consider him for another term. so the question becomes -- and i will put it back to you, if you're framing this question as a journalist and you're covering the story, how do you frame it. >> lies and slander. >> so if you frame it as lies, and i'm out here sort of as ali vitali mentioned in earlier conversations, voters are just starting to turn and this may be the first time looking at this, et cetera, et cetera. what do they hear up against your framing of this as lies? so that's always that problem space for us, for those of us in the democracy space, and journalism, politics, who are trying to course correct trumpism and trump is you always got that lagging indicator with voters. and they're coming into it late,

they're trying to frame it realtime, all the time. and that's the spot he lives in. that's the spot he lives in, the in between, where he just, boom, boom, like fireworks going off. and the noise is so loud. and the colors are so bright and beautiful, and people senses are stunned about what he's actually saying he wants to do to democracy. >> and i will say that i don't -- the answer to your question is far too complex. >> for 12:30 in the morning? [laughter] >> i will say an entire conversation or you never mentioned the violent insurrection that occurred on january 6th is not a serious democracy. it is not a service to journalism. >> there you go. >> team biden is already posting and commenting about tonight's on air antics, so how is the present feeling of those possible competitors? we are checking in with co-chair of the biden harris campaign, up next. >> who would be in your cabinet, in your administration that if you are the nominee, which i

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and donald trump may have been under the spotlight tonight, but don't think for a minute president biden in his campaign

team merely sat back and watched the chaos unfold. of course, was popcorn. the president and his surrogates spent the evening calling out the republican lies in the hawkeye state, a statement by the biden harris 2024 communications director michael tyler asserted, quote, tonight trump doubled down and played his greatest hits, bragging about overturning roe v. wade, rooting for the economy to crash, and pledging to rule as a dictator on his very first day in office, if he's able to return to power. joining me now is co-chair of biden's 2024 reelection campaign, former white house aide and congressman cedric richmond. cedric, such a real pleasure to have you. so what's your -- when you're watching this unfold, are you looking at this from earth one perspective or earth two perspective? because the back and forth between trump and then what we saw playing out with nikki haley and ron desantis,

democrats tonight have to look at this going into this start of the campaign going, okay, now we have a better sense of what we're dealing with, a guy who wants to be a dictator, and two people who can't seem to take the guy who wants to be a dictator out. >> michael, you're absolutely right. but let me just say, even more than that, you have a guy who starts off talking about he wants to be a dictator. he doubles down on it. he brags about overturning roe. and then, he also talks about rooting for the economy to crash because he doesn't want to be a president like herbert hoover, which he was already a president like herbert hoover, because he left office with losing jobs as opposed to creating jobs. so then if you turn the channel and you look at haley and desantis, they are trying to out-trump each other. and they both will get that trump is in the race. so what we see is that all of

the republican candidates are doubling down on the extreme agenda, whether it is to put medicare, social security, and medicaid at risk, whether it is to continue to go back to failed policies of catering to corporations in the top 1%. so right now, is the beginning of a campaign, where we get to draw a contrast. but the same, time we have to remind voters what we promised, what we did, our vision for the future, and we have to go out and communicate that to the american people. and that's from people who are watching shows like this, and people who are at home busting their tails to put food on the table and provide for their families. >> congressman, it's symone. and i hope the people who are busting their tails to provide for the families also tuned are watching us tonight? i would like to play for you and the audience what donald trump said about roe and that exchange from him?

>> in this campaign, you've also blamed pro-lifers for some of the gop losses around the country and you've called heartbeat laws like the one and i'm not terrible -- it's such an important question for me. i want to ask if you can protect all peoples life without compromise. >> that's a great question. you would not be asking that question even talking about the issue, because for 54 years they were trying to get roe v. wade terminated, and i did it. and i'm proud to have done it. i'm proud to be for the exceptions, like ronald reagan where the life of the mother, rape, incest, i just have to be there, i feel. i feel probably about 78% -- it was ronald reagan, he was for, it i was for it. but i will say this.

you have to win elections. otherwise, you are going to be back where you were, and you can't let that other happen again. you've got to win elections. >> congressman, can we expect that the president is going to take on donald trump directly on this particular point? in one breath, he bragged about overturning roe v. wade. but in another breath, talks about exceptions. and saying that you have to win elections. and i would note, exceptions did not help kate cox in texas. >> this is absolutely been -- the present will take them on, directly. and when the president talks about freedoms, that's one of those freedoms that -- to control your own body and make your own decisions. that's one of the freedoms that the president talks about. but the other thing i will remind you about donald trump, and i will just go back to my days in congress, i think while i was there, we found something like 17,500 lives that he told. and if you go on this issue, he's all over the place.

but we are going to remind the people what's at stake. the other thing that i would tell you, symone, is look, he won in 2016. in 2018, we'd be, them and we took back the house. in 2020, we beat him and took the white house. in 2022, they thought it would be a red wave, and it wasn't. we'd win that election. and we did by reminding people who he is and what we stand for as democrats. and so, as this campaign is going, we have a lot of work to do. but we have the time to do it. and we're gonna continue to talk about the fact that joe biden and kamala harris, they wake up every day trying to figure out how to help working families. they wake up every day trying to help americans. donald trump wakes up every day and figures out what is in it for him and how to help himself. it is all about high. and i think that the american people have rejected that and they're going to do it again. >> congress but -- we've already seen the president begin to prosecute

this case about democracy, the stakes of this election, in addition, as you've suggested multiple times, and i know a lot of this will come down to the economy, voters perception of the economy. and i thought we got a glimpse into how donald trump is going to try to rewrite the economic narrative of his own administration, not just comparing apples to oranges, but really comparing apples to kids, talking about gas prices during his administration, noting a low gas price when in fact we were in the middle of a global pandemic, giving no context for the fact that gas prices have multiple global stress factors, talking about inflation. as you all know, rooting that a recession takes place before he is president. how do you create that economic contrast between this administration and the previous administration when he is not operating from a unified set of facts? >> well, one, he doesn't operate from. facts he lies. and even in some of the comments he just said they're just not true. but we will remind people the day we took office, 50% of schools were closed in this country.

we had thousands of americans dying every day. and we went, and we put our head down, and we got the job done. and then if we want to talk about the economy, the president has created over 14 million jobs. he's brought manufacturing back to america. he has strengthened the supply chain. if you look at consumer confidence now and the unemployment rate, both are headed in the right direction. and so, we are going to continue to harp on those numbers. for example, the racial wealth gap is the closest it's ever been. we've increased black wealth by 60%. we still have a long way to go. but the numbers show that we wake up every day working on those kitchen table issues. and we are gonna remind people of the progress we made. and the stumbling blocks in the way. if you look at the 3.6 million people who we relieved from student debt, we still have millions more to go. the court blocked it. the president found creative ways to help students anyway.

and, so we are just going to continue to keep our head down, the president and the vice president will do the policy. people like me will continue to go on tv and the campaign, will continue to go enable it and other places to talk about what we've been able to accomplish. but we believe we have a very, very strong record, economic and otherwise, to go out and talk about. and now is the time to do that. >> cedric, before i let you go, buddy, just one really quick sort of easy question for you, you saw chris christie, the president call chris christie by any chance tonight, just to say, hey, i heard what you said today? >> i would not know that. but i would certainly cover it. >> well, you know, if so, just let us know. cedric richmond, thank you so much my friend for coming on tonight. speaking of debates tonight, tonight's debate and town hall were kicked off by another

republican candidate suspending his campaign. what this means just four days out from iowa. >> that's right. >> that's right. ree times as much and the clothes still weren't as clean as with tide. so we're back with tide, and the clothes are clean ai do 3x the laundry and get a tide clean. it's got to be tide. >> woman: what's my safelite story? i see inspiration right through my glass. so when my windshield cracked, i chose safelite. they replaced the glass and recalibrated my safety system. that's service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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man for the job. let's take a listen. >> it's clear to me tonight that there is not a path for me to win the nomination. which is why i'm suspending my campaign tonight for president of the united states. i know and i can see it from some of the faces here that i'm disappointing some people by doing this, people who believe in our message and believe in what we've been doing. i also know though that it's the right thing for me to do. because i want to promise you this. i am going to make sure that in no way do i enable donald trump to ever be president of the united states again. and that's more important to my own personal interests. >> [applause] >> and just hours later, trump attended his own town hall in iowa, where he'd seemed determined to prove christie

right. joining us now, political strategist and former gop chair in new hampshire, my old friend, jennifer horn. you're joining us tonight. i'm so happy, thanks for being here tonight. so here's the deal, new hampshire is just right for chris christie. it is a combination of democrats, republicans, and independent voters who all act like independent voters. why could not christie, given what he said tonight on his way out the door, and i know he made that case continuing throughout his campaign, because that was his only focus in this thing, why could that message not resonate? why did it resonate with voters enough to say, you know what, in the balance, this is the guy who should be the one to take on trump and probably carry the party to a different place than trump was planning to take it? >> first, let me say that i think that chris christie provided the nation with such a

valuable service, such a valuable moment. if it was not for chris christie, the truth about donald trump and the truth about this gop primary would be lost in history. so because he was so aggressive and assertive and firm and standing in that message, we all owe a thank you for that. why didn't he take off new hampshire? because this is a primary. he would've done better in a general election. everything that chris christie stood for in this race, truth, ethics, honor, who has the integrity to be presently -- to win the presidency, all this message falls on deaf ears in a republican primary. the primary does not want to hear it. and when you're talking about a primer, you are talking about base voters. and even when we look at some of the numbers that are going to nikki haley are going to ron desantis, those are all people who are still thinking in some

way either that those candidates will bring themselves some piece of trump, or that when election day rolls around, whether or not they really stay with those candidates, i'm not convinced. they want trump. they want trumpism. >> jennifer, watching the debate tonight between nikki haley and ron desantis through the lens of an undecided new hampshire voter, persuadable new hampshire voter, was there anything that happened on that debate stage that might move a voter? that's a question one. question two, those chris christie voters in new hampshire, who do they go to now? >> start with question to. the polling shows that they are most likely to go to nikki haley. but we know that the nature -- the nature of human beings on election day and it's something we talk about in new hampshire all the time. no matter how many -- no matter how decided somebody thinks they are the day before the election, don't be

surprised if they change their mind as they walk into that voting booth. there are more undecided voters sometimes than what the polls really show. i think some of those votes are going to go to trump. as for the first question -- i'm sorry, alicia, you have to remind me what it was. >> please, it is late. if there's anything that happen on that stage with desantis and haley that would change someone's mind? >> i say unequivocally no, that nothing happened today that is going to affect the election, either the caucus in my opinion, or new hampshire. and so far, i don't think it would change south carolina either. i was talking to some folks in south carolina and new hampshire during the debate, as we are watching it together, i said to one of my friends in new hampshire exactly what you just said to me. so who moved the needle tonight? he said nobody. he said the only thing anybody new hampshire is talking about tonight's chris christie.

he said i'd be surprised if there were a normal number of people even watching it. but neither one of them created any space between themselves or any more space between themselves and donald trump. if you look at the polls, you -- i know that nikki haley looks like she is surging in the last week or so. but go to 538, the average of the poll still has donald trump ahead of her by double digits. what i think is going to happen is that trump is going to win iowa, you hampshire, south carolina. unfortunately for america, i don't think either of those candidates did us any favors tonight. >> all right, jennifer horn, catch you in new hampshire in a few weeks. thank you, my friend. don't go anywhere, folks. we will have more on this debate. trump's town hall, and his ongoing legal battles after this. oh, and be sure to tune in on saturday for a new morning show coming to msnbc, the three of us will be back here beginning at eight a.m. eastern for the

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special coverage. i'm alicia menendez, joy

my colleagues michael steele and symone sanders-townsend. today we got another view of the split queen reality on earth one. on the first few days the first votes the 2024 republican primary are set to be cast, officially kicking off the race for the white house. republican front runner donald trump is juggling the courtroom and the campaign trail. a reminder, he is facing 91 felony counts across four different trials and continues to hold a commanding lead in the republican primary. but over on earth to, the disgraced ex presidents rivals are simply ignoring that reality. hours ago former south carolina governor nikki haley, florida governor ron desantis, faced off in the final debate before iowans head to the polls on monday. it was two hours chalk full of mistruths, misdirection, and flat out lies. what was supposed to be a debate almost immediately devolved into a slugfest between the two candidates,

with nearly no mention of the real rival, donald trump. >> we don't need another mealymouthed politician who just tells you what she thinks you want to hear. >> but every time he lies, drake university, don't turn this into a drinking game, because you will be over served by the end of the night. >> she's got a problem with ballistic dietary, shooting yourself in the foot every other day. >> he can call me whatever name he wants, it doesn't change the fact that ron's line because ron is losing. >> the disgraced ex presidents kept that debate. instead he appeared in a televised fox town hall where he fielded questions more friendly crowd. how here's how the new york times summed up the events. as desantis and haley tore into each other, trump emerged unscathed. the gop grow smaller by the day and trump's lead in the polls only widens. when will the ex presidents rivals wake up, confront reality, and join us here on earth one. symone, i'm gonna guess their

answer is fifth of. never >> fit i've never. a lot of that debate tonight. i think the slugfest at the beginning and it happened throughout in the mudslinging amongst one another, it just dragged them down. and if this were a normal election, a normal presidential primary, i would be hoping for more. and maybe if it was normal, better than a slight face fast, it might not seem so petty. but given the dynamics and what is currently happening, the former president united states of america, who also happens to the front runner in this race who wasn't on the debate stage tonight, was in court yesterday while his lawyers were arguing that he should be immune from doing crimes when he was president, unless he was impeached and convicted. that is where we are. chris christie directly called ron desantis and nikki haley and challenge them, basically today. i think he really set the tone going into this debate, as you noted at the top. chris christie said, anyone who

is unwilling to say that donald trump is not unfit to be president is not fit to be the president themselves. and we didn't hear that from either of them tonight. i wasn't expecting maybe ron desantis to come out there and say that, but nikki haley, i mean, she is fighting for her life and relevancy, her political life and relevancy here. so rise to the occasion. she tiptoed up to the line but didn't cross it. >> i want to talk about the tiptoeing, if you don't mind. i got tasked with watching donald trump so you could sit back and relax. can we play elementary. this is nikki haley, and then i want to talk about it with michael on the other side. >> the best way to tell about a candidate is to see how they run their campaign. he has blown through 100 and $50 million. i don't know how you do that. through his campaign he has nothing to show for it. he spent more money on private planes and he has on commercials trying to get

iowans to vote for him. if you can't manage a campaign, how are you going to manage a country? i think ballots need to be counted on election day in should get results on election day. but that election, trump lost it. biden won that election. and the idea that he is going to carry this out forever, to the point where he's going to continue to say these things to scare the american people, we've seen a lot of states counted together into more election integrity fills. we still have three or four states that i'm worried about the don't have that. but at the end of the day i will always defend and fight for the constitution. that's what we should do as americans. i think what happened on january six was a terrible day and i think president trump will have to answer for it. >> trump lost, biden won. but in context. that is her speaking the truth. >> it was her speaking the truth. nikki is known to do that. she has done it on aspects of trump economic policy.

she's done it here on ballot integrity. a little bit. but i'm about declarative statements at this point. >> what do you want to hear? >> i want to hear that donald trump is unfit to be president of the united states, period, full stop. he is unfit for all the reasons we all know. everyone in this country, even the maga heads, at the end of the day, donald trump would not be the god that they would want for president in a normal universe of things. so i want some definitions, some clarity there from individuals like nikki. and ron desantis, to say that thing. the thing they need to say, they won't say. and we have watched them dance around it, come up close and touch it. this is about as deep as she is going to get on voter integrity, ballot box integrity.

this is about as deep as it's going to go. don't you think we need to go a little deeper than this? >> yes. she also had a nod to the conspiracy theorists and the people that say the election actually wasn't around the right way. she did, she said, i do think there were discrepancies and what happened. >> know their word. >> and they were not, correct. correct. which is why there are folks out there like chris christie and others, who we coulput up on the screen. look at the polling in iowa. look at the polling in new hampshire. a full screen of the polling in iowa and new hampshire. the first choice among new hampshire republican party voters. you see this, 46, 26, 12, eight, two. and then if you look at iowa, if you look at iowa, this is fox business poll. look at the numbers. nikki haley didn't make her closing argument. she didn't elevate herself in this race tonight. i think to be, i guess, give a little something to ron desantis, this was better than

all the other debates i've seen him do. why are looking at me like that? it was. >> to me it has been a consistent -- the entire time. even arrhythmia, something, can you show a little life? no. i'm not giving him that, because you want to be president of the united states. >> he's not gonna be president united states. >> it's not what he's going to be it's what he wants to be. that's why he wrote he's running. he wants to be president of the united states. then damage, run. if you want the job. he doesn't want the job. that's how i look at it. >> let me play some sound. because there is desantis also talking about the trump trial in the way that he thinks it's going to factor into this question of eligibility. >> don trump's going to lose that appeal. he's going to end up going to trial in front of a stacked

left-wing d.c. jury of all democrats. what are the odds that he's gonna get through that? and that's not even talking about the validity of the charges. i don't think he gets through that. and so what are we going to do is republicans in terms of who we nominate for president? if trump is going to be the nominee it's gonna be about january six, legal issues, criminal trials, and democrats in the media would love to run with that. i'm not running for my issues. i'm running for your issues. >> the reason i wanted to play that is because it felt to me very carefully constructed. like the top of the argument is, donald trump is gonna lose that appeal, he's gonna end up going to trial before a stacked left-wing d.c. jury of all democrats. so he's already signaling that conspiracy. donald trump is going to lose this thing because of that. but then he sort of tiptoes back and says, so maybe he's not gonna win, which means you need to think about me. but it is so interesting to me. he's not even gonna come out and say he's going to be held accountable because he did things that should disqualify

him from the presidency. he tries to live within the frame of conspiracy and then work it to his advantage. >> so, to that point, that's how i know he doesn't want to be president. because he gives away the store when he says he's going to end up going to a trial before a stacked left-wing d.c. jury of all democrats. what are the odds are he's going to get through that? so he's created sympathy for the guy that he's trying to defeat. he's given them a political reason not to come to him. you have to understand the context at which campaigns operate. if i'm going after you, alicia, i'm not giving you any room. you're stuck with a pipe? guess what i'm gonna do. so the reality is, you've got to make the pain felt by your opponent. when i say donald trump is

going to lose that appeal, okay, tell me more. what do you think? what do you mean? but then i go, well, but he's going to end up in front of a trial full of left-wing liberals who are going to hang him. who am i going to have sympathy for? you are donald trump? >> running against michael steele -- i want to bring into the conversation senior correspondent at puck news and the host of somebody's gotta win. indeed, somebody's gotta win. i wonder if anyone else is closer to that truth. >> well, somebody's got to win second place, but i think maybe this debate actually did not get anyone closer to second. i feel like they came out of this a parity. i don't feel like either one of them traps the other and either way but there was something more substantial to bait than i have seen in the past with vivek ramaswamy in the fight he was having with nikki haley and

the largest stage means you don't get to hear the candidates positions on things. but i think the problem right now that has been the problem the entire campaign is that neither nikki haley or ron desantis i willing to really go after donald trump because they are still hoping to win his voter base, which is the non educated white voters, basically. they still want to win that base. and they feel that attacking trump means they can't win that. chris christie is sort of an example of what happens when you go after donald trump. you can't win the gop primary voter. he's very unfavorable among gop primary voters. he was polling at 4% in iowa. you can't attack trump and. when they haven't figured out a way to win. while attacking trump. >> along those lines, and chris christie never showed up in iowa. he put all his chips in new hampshire. as we all know today he

suspended his campaign. i want to play for you folks element one, dog trump on retribution. >> i'm not gonna have time for retributions. we're going to make this country so successful again, i'm not gonna have time for retribution. [applause] and remember this. our ultimate retribution's success. >> we know donald trump has said the literal exact opposite at every rally he's had for the last year. to your point, i didn't get any of -- the >> that was his campaign message. retribution. >> literally it's what he says. i didn't hear any other candidates critiquing him on that. you talk a lot to the trump campaign folks in a number of the other campaigns still in this race. how does the trump campaign viewed on trump's performance in this town hall? and what are nikki haley's camp and ron desantis's camp said about what they have now seen? i assume they have seen the clips. >> the trump team, to the trump

team he's one. by not engaging in these debates he winds. at the the new york times summed it up as well. ron desantis and nikki haley attack each other, they both come out unclear who is in second. trump wins by strategically not engaging in the mud fight, which is weird for donald trump, to not engage in a fight, to lower himself. but he winds by being a part of the town hall. it was an easy platform for him. it wasn't variant tag in a static. he didn't have any wind coming after him. and really, it would have benefited nikki haley and ron desantis more be on the stage with donald trump. but they didn't get that opportunity. they probably never will. but ron desantis, nikki haley, right now ron desantis is trying to lower expectations. last night he last month he said he was gonna win iowa. it doesn't look like it's gonna

happen. even nikki haley's team is lowering expectations as well. trump's team is here because of the, weather and what they have been boasting is that he would get over 50 points. he is coming in as essentially the incumbent president so you think you would get at least half of the gop primary voter. if he gets anything less than that it could be -- perhaps not that big of a victory. but we are what we are looking at monday is whether it's going to be a coronation or not, essentially. is donald trump gonna blow out the field by 20 points? or will it be closer to 15 or ten? i think the cake is baked at this point. that's what i'm trying to say. >> it's baked. a little lopsided, but it's bake. no doubt about that. maybe leave it in the oven. just take it out. at one point both candidates were asked the question, which i thought was an interesting one. is there a difference between the way you and donald trump view the constitution?

and ron desantis gave a word salad answer to that question. but nikki haley said the 2020 election, trump lost it by one. what did you make of that moment, when you heard that? the way she said it was rather clear and rather definitive. but when you layer it up against everything else that she says about donald trump, if that's the case why did you raise your hand? you know, if this guy is a loser, why are you looking to put him back? why won't you go after him? how did you read that moment with that question? >> i think she's thinking about the new hampshire voters at this point as well. they are just like a more independent democratic maybe center. they are right but they are more to the center and they just don't have the appetite for that. she's probably even moving past

iowa right now that he about new hampshire and willing to call it off for the first time. it's just such a crazy thing that this party just can't just say biden won. you could lose political points for not stating the obvious. i don't know, what i kind of gathered from this whole debate is ron desantis probably have the strongest debate performance that we've seen so far, i agree with symone on that. >> cenk you tara. >> it's weird, he's gotten the ticks down a little bit. he hasn't had a message this entire time. his message is i'm not running for for myself, like trump, and i'm not running for the donors like haley. i'm running for you. he's finally put it in the voters. but this whole time he's been all over the place with messaging. and he's finally landed it, but it's too late. and everything else, it has

been a messy campaign. nikki haley called him out for it. i don't know how much the residents of iowans feel that he flies around on a private jet. and stays it nice hotels. but it's kind of over already. we know trump is gonna win iowa. really were already on to the next stage in new hampshire. i think the news for chris christie is really inject a little bit of, i don't, no competition in the race. but iowa i think it's done. i don't think nikki haley or desantis one. >> it is the double tree is where you want to stay if here in des moines, y'all. they have a good stake. >> good to know. i'll be there freezing in a few days. >> all right, tara palmeri, thank you for much for staying up late and being with. yes we do not need to tell you,

nothing about this election cycle is normal. the republican front runner juggling's time in the courtroom in the campaign trail. will donald trump's legal problems, and there are many, even make a difference in iowa or anywhere? that part of the story is next. art of the story is next art of the story is next >> art of the story is next >> it cleans so well, you can replace multiple cleaning products. try dawn powerwash. >> woman: what's my safelite story? i see inspiration right through my glass. so when my windshield cracked, i chose safelite. they replaced the glass and recalibrated my safety system. that's service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ i could've waited to tell my doctor my heart was racing just making spaghetti... but i didn't wait. i could've delayed telling my doctor i was short of breath just reading a book... but i didn't wait. they told their doctors. and found out they had... atrial fibrillation. a condition which makes it about five times more likely to have a stroke. if you have one or more of these symptoms

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election yet? look at don't on schedule this month. trump is jumping straight from iowa to new york, we plans to be in court thursday for closing arguments in a civil fraud trial of his family business practices. and then it's back to iowa, as if nothing happened. campaigning on saturday and sunday ahead of monday's caucuses. vin next tuesday, another trial gets underway to determine damages and ian writer e. jean carroll's defamation case against donald trump. msnbc legal analyst charles coleman joins us now. he's a former brooklyn prosecutor. okay, charles, i want to talk about on trump in the legalese things. but before we get there, in the debate tonight there was a interesting exchange on crime. i want to play ron desantis free while. and we will discuss it any other aunt. >> the lamb riots in the summer 2020, when i saw that happening in minneapolis and florida i called out the national guard. we had state law enforcement deployed. we said we're not burning down your cities and you know what,

it didn't happen. he sat in the white house and tweeted law and order. but he did nothing to endure law and order. as your president i will never let our cities burn. you have every right to stop this runaway rioting. in fact you have a duty. nikki haley and i have a disagreement on the blm stuff as well. she tweeted during this period of time that the death of george floyd should be, quote, personal and painful for each and every american. but people in iowa had nothing to do with that, or florida, or south carolina. she was virtue signaling to the left. she was accepting the narrative. and he was trying to impress people who are never going to like us. i never bought into going after the police. we backed the blue to the hilt. >> thank you, governor desantis. >> we are about lower crime's result. >> there was a lot there. charles, a lot of talk about crime. it was a question about would you deploy troops. donald trump said he would, to curb violent crime.

the talked about riots. nothing about january six. >> right. very interesting. i think alicia was alluding to earth one and then being on earth to. and on earth one we have seen over and over again this issue of crime become racialized. you saw this where they answer the question because both of them made this fantastic pivot. almost immediately, to the blm riots and the imagery that is provoked when you're talking about. it and ron desantis used the language and hyperbole of saying this is the most outrageous scenes of riots that our country has ever seen, never mentioning, to your point, january six, which i thought was interesting. this was clearly signaling to their base, hey, we understand with the problem with crime is, it's the blm people. and it's so fascinating for me to watch that when you have a conversation about crime in america, immediate response is about muting the response to police violence. and that is very troublesome, but very much on brand for

everyone in the republican party right now. >> crime is down. >> elsewhere reference that ron desantis remarked, those people are never going to like us. it's not clear to me who the us is. is the asked republicans? is the us white americans? what was the divide exactly that he was trying to describe? >> that's not for us to. know what you can mr. shooed the us is sitting in the audience and presumably watching on television because that's the audience that they were playing to. they understood very clearly the coded language that ron desantis attempted to use. the other thing i found so fascinating about that, in this conversation about law and order, about the need to maintain and preserve the notion of law and order, there was no discussion of the fact that their opponent is currently facing 91 felony counts in various indictments in jurisdictions across the country. and so i found it such

hypocrisy, if you will, to have this penchant around the notion of law enforcement, support law enforcement, upholding the law. and you have someone whom, by the way, you're supposed to be competing against him you said nothing about the legal entanglements that symone just mentioned. >> to say nothing of the violent insurrection on january 6th. >> exactly. that whole sequence, with respect to law and order, i backed the blue, and all of that, how do you think, given what lies ahead, as alicia laid out of the opening here, the next few days, the trials, again, resume in earnest in the midst of this caucus taking place, that the judicial system, knowing that that's going to be the game going forward, this back and forth between the political theater that happens with trump and the theater he

wants to make out of his courtrooms. what's the preparation for that that you think prosecutors, judges, courtrooms, should all be considering right now? >> i think it's extra volley. we've been processing these things in a vacuum as if they are sort of like on two different tracks. and what we are starting to really see is that for donald trump in the way that he's approaching it it's all one thing. it's an entire campaign. when i go to court in new york, whether it's a civil trial or whether it's a criminal indictment in georgia or florida or d.c., i'm making a campaign stop because now i'm standing up and i'm instead of being prosecuted i'm being persecuted. i'm fighting for you. i'm a martyr for you all as victims. so it becomes one huge circus. as a prosecutor, when you're in that space, what you have to do is understand, look, i need to do my job and focus on what it is and ultimately get these convictions. you are not concerned with and

can't afford to be concerned with the political ramifications. >> to follow up on that, there are political ramifications to that. we've witnessed with realtime, judges being threatened. prosecutors being threatened. so the general public is responding to this circus maximus that is taking place by donald trump. you're telling me there is no consideration of that in terms of sitting down and trying to figure out not just how do i protect my people but how do i prosecute this case in the face of what he's trying to do? >> what you have just hit on is the challenge, if you are a prosecutor in a case like this, and one of the reasons the donald trump has been so aggressive in terms of his messaging and trying to apply pressure to the justice system in terms of the way he talks about, who he talks about, and how you talked about these things is because he wants to paint people into a corner and

force them to make a call. what we have seen, for example, in new york with judge engoron, and you've seen it with judge chutkan as well, he's doing that on purpose because as a prosecutor now you have to make the decision, how much of this do i want to argue about? if i argue about it too much i may potentially create another issue for him to appeal and further delay where we're trying to go in terms of securing a conviction. >> has the legal community writ large bin too afraid to do the thing as it relates to donald trump? if it was any other defendant, anyone else, he would be sitting in a jail cell right now for the things that he has said. this week america literally could hear. they just typed in on google, his lawyers claiming that he has presidential immunity, from prosecution because he wasn't impeached and convicted by a political process. he literally stood there and said, yeah, he could assassinate someone unless he was impeached and convicted.

they should be able to do anything to him. >> i don't know that the legal community at large has been hesitant to do that. i think among lawyers many people have said, look, this guy does not have a way out. he's facing a dead and. although we do understand that his attorneys have an ethical obligation to exhaust every legal remedy possible in defense of their client. i think what you're talking about really speaks to the bench. because there's not a judge in america, and this is a dirty little secret that people don't want to admit, who really wants to be responsible for putting donald trump in jail. there are a number of both political and practical considerations that come with a decision like that that i don't necessarily know any judge wants to take on. it has a host of different implications. >> political and practical considerations that they are only making for donald trump. >> thank you, that's where i draw a big line. >> we will discuss it. charles coleman, thank you very much. we appreciate your time. next, one of the last

republican critics of donald trump, we've talked about, it chris christie, is out of the work race. chris christie's parting shots about the threat to democracy the former president poses. stay with us. resident poses stay with us stay with us >>ke if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. about two years ago, i realized that jade was overweight. i wish i would have introduced the fresh food a lot sooner. after farmer's dog, she's a much healthier weight. she's a lot more active. and she's able to join us on our adventures. get started at betterforthem.com rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60, including those with asthma, diabetes, copd, and certain other conditions.

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but can get away with it. and not be subject to crime. i mean, look, who do we want to be? >> that's chris christie talking about donald trump's legal argument that he has immunity for anything he did as president. over chris christie dropped out of the race on wednesday, christie was one of the very few republicans in the race raising the alarm about a second trump term. and kristie, a former federal prosecutor, said he would do everything he could to top stop trump from getting reelected. michael, let's start what we started before we went to break. you are saying? >> i love that question. who do we want to be? it's a question i have proposed to many republican friends and it's a question that i now in various veins have been posing more broadly to the country. who do you want to be? what does all of this say about us? and i think that question is even a little bit more powerful

than do you love democracy question. why? because it's more personal. who do you want to? be it speaks to how you view yourselves as an american. and i thought chris christie laid that out very nicely. i think one way to help frame that question for people is, if we could, let's listen to donald trump on bedlam. tonight in his town hall, when asked about bedlam. let's talk about that. me >> there will be bedlam in the country. it's a very bad thing. a very bad precedent, as we said. the opening of a pandora's box. the very same thing that has happened with this whole situation. when they talk about threat to democracy, that's a real threat to democracy. >> you just use the word bedlam. would you tell your supporters now what it means? >> that's it right there. it's bedlam.

it's violence is that who we are? >> what's interesting tonight is he got pressed on what did you mean, can you define it. i don't think he was able to me offer it, and he was somehow able to bring about joe biden, over and over again, which is to jiu-jitsu the claims against him. donald trump is dangerous for democracy as he's proven in his own words and actions on january 6th in an effort to overturn the results of a fair and free election, and tried to say oh, i'm not the danger to democracy. joe biden is the danger to democracy. and he understands. it doesn't matter if anyone buys into that. it just creates a sense of chaos that benefits him. >> it's the off ramp. he's always looking for the off ramp, the diversion, the projection. it's all of those things, but what is troubling at this late hour, not necessarily of this

night, but of this journey, because we are eight years into this. it's how much americans are still buying the bedlam story. how much they are still like, you know, i could use a little bedlam in my life. that will help deal with some things i don't want to have to deal with. that has not been the american spirit. and so for me it's how donald trump sucks the life out of that spirit and replace it with this thing, this darker image of the country where the three of us are not the best representation of the country, but he is. >> we are the other. i am taking us back to when donald trump was inaugurated, his speech was the darkest speech of. overheard he promised american carnage. we heard tonight in this town hall, further teasing out, i think, more american carnage. again, it sounded palatable.

it sounded plain speak. and if you did not pay attention to what you are hearing donald trump saying, you would think he was speaking normally. the immunity saying, the bedlam thing, the violence piece, promising to be a dictator on day one, it is, first of all, it's something he continuously says over and over again, and to your point, he does, the oh no it's joe biden that wants to do that. because he knows that in places across this country, in media organizations, not this one, sometimes he says it and the people write it up. donald trump said this, biden responds like. this i can't say it enough. it's not a normal election. there's no equivalent. particularly in this moment it's okay to say that these two things are not the same. >> i want to pull up real quick the graphic that we have this shows of the trump legal cases and the political dates on the

calendar. you have the new york civil fraud trial closing arguments, you have iowa caucuses, e. jean carroll. so before even get to the cases that the cases we can say our presidential defining, jack smith's two cases, mar-a-lago doc's case, the january 6th case, election interference case, fani willis's case out of georgia, you just have these other issues. e. jean carroll, about whom the action has already been decided. we know he did something wrong. the only open question is, how much is he going to pay for what he has already done wrong. and this is a fraud trial the question isn't did he do it or not? the question is, what should the punishment be? there are multiple questions about his criminality as a businessman, as a media personality, and then before you even get to this question, donald trump for president. >> we'll, next --

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inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com >> so tonight we started to hear some of the talking points donald trump will use in the general election, doing his town hall he accused the democrats of creating far more chaos than during his own presidency, which is objectively not true. he also went after president

biden on the economy and foreign policy. now the question is, how will the democrats respond? so joining us to discuss this and more, so little, aikman of the democratic parties leading political pollsters, and also one of two lead pollsters for the biden campaign in 2020, and she's just good peeps all around. so tonight you heard from both the town hall meeting and the debate. so did this uptick narrative about, well, the world is falling apart because of joe biden. you know when i was president things were great. gas was $2 a gallon. how is the counter narrative being set up by the biden campaign, particularly given what i thought was a very important, and i'll use this word, explosive in a good way for the campaign in valley

forge. >> i think there are three pillars, maybe four pillars of the way it's setup. first there's the boris an issue, which occurred in the debate. they found out on it and not on trump's still foundry and flip-flopping in using different words and euphemisms to fight despite fact that he's more responsible than anyone else to for taking away roe v. wade and arraigned on abortion. second is the democracy and january 6th, a really telling moment. this was a call to action for joe biden in charlottesville and a call to action now. there is no comparison in terms of character. every day you see these two, you see joe biden, someone who is a steady hand, seasoned, cares about people, does not divide people, wants to work with people. and you see someone as bombastic, name calling, divisive, and even his supporters grant him that he sometimes goes too far, but he

doesn't always use his language right, that he is next administration will be more focused on revenge. and then you have the third pillar which is the economy. and one of the most sobering numbers is people think the economy was better under don trump than it was under barack obama or joe biden, and we've got to make the case there. better for home? what's the record? and what will american families be able to look forward to if they have four more years of joe biden? what are these biden harris going to do in this uncertain economy? >> i heard whips of focus groups and polling when i was listening to donald trump. i thought it was very interesting that he had an anti choice anti-reproductive rights voter speak to him and say i'm actually concerned that you have placed blame for republicans political losses at the feet of our movement. donald trump came back

swinging. he said i delivered you roe v. wade. i did what no one else could do for you. i believe in exceptions. and part of what he said was, because that is the only political path forward. i am trying to be winnable in a general election. so clearly he has gotten the message that the most extreme position on this is not going to fly in general. the other two issues he kept coming back to, immigration, and energy independence. clearly he believes that those two are witness for him. what are you seeing in your focus groups, in your polling around those issues? >> first of all, every single chance of voters have had they have spoken loudly, firmly, and solid majority in favor of people being able to make their own decisions and government and politicians staying out of personal health care decisions. there is even stronger debate than when we had roe v. wade. so voters have spoken clearly.

donald trump has tried to be all over the map, aided by kellyanne conway, in terms of trying to look for language like where the party of babies, know the party of contraception, and medication abortion were not in support. of it's not here anyway. he knows he's in trouble. he knows his parties in trouble. and this is an issue that can mobilize people and persuade people. in terms of immigration, i think it's a very salient issue. it's mostly an issue for the republican base right now. and as many people have pointed out, and policy experts have pointed out, the blame here solidly rests on congress. congress refuses to act. there are all kinds of things congress could do to help deal with this problem, and they refused to do it. >> before we get you go, greetings it's, symone. >> hi? . >> what keeps you up about this

election. >> third parties in the fact that so many people are unhappy with their choices. the inability, the difficulty of breaking through because the spectacular record. i think joe biden has been a wonderful president, and to answer the clear part of your question, he has invested more in energy independence than any president in history, in terms of renewable energy, energy independence. so that inability to breakthrough, the fact that people are so cynical right now that they see any claim to accomplishment as a victory lap and they don't feel like victory laps right now, and then what keeps me up at night is how close this election is and donald trump might be able to win and oh my goodness, what will that be like? i think it's very important defeat for women voters in particular. what does four more years of donald trump like? like >> celinda, keep your

finger on that pulse and help us answer that question over the next ten months. thank you so much for joining us tonight. we really appreciate you. so folks, guess what. that does it for us. this very busy night. and we are also grateful for you joining us for our msnbc special coverage. now if you enjoy the last two hours, guess what? there's plenty more of it, starting saturday morning. the three of us are teaming up to bring you the weekend every saturday and sunday at 80 am eastern. we hope you will join us for our very first show, this saturday. have a great night. saturday have a great night have a great night >> only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means your priorities are ours too. our retirement tools and advice can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership.

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