it is good to be back with you on this second hour of "chris jansing reports." at this hour, is the city that made donald trump famous about to deliver his come up its. the former president making a fiery closing argument in a trial that could cost him millions up next, it's the prosecution. plus, ron desantis says being the underdog suits him better. his final clash with nikki haley ahead of the first votes in iowa. can he make up any ground? and hunter biden grabbing headlines again. the president's son due to be arraigned in california just a day after a wild confrontation on the hill. our nbc news reporters are following the latest developments and we start with what's happening just about 15 minutes from now. the prosecution due to present

its closing arguments in donald trump's civil fraud trial after a dramatic scene in which the former president himself addressed the court. the judge had only allowed trump to speak on the condition that he focus on the facts but the president quickly veered into other territory claiming he is an innocent man being persecuted d the judge telling defense counsel please control your client. th former president has already been found liable for inflating properties to get loan deals. the judge will attempt to issue his ruling by the end of the month. yasmin vossoughian is reporting for us outside the courtroom in new york. vaughn hillyard is urbandale, iowa, also with us, renato,

former federal prosecutor. somebody might argue at least in terms of drama donald trump's a tough act to follow. >> reporter: yeah, i think that person would likely win that argument. nonetheless, i think lee tee -- james has a lot in store. she is not likely to offer closing arguments to other attorneys. in the attorney general's office, they will be offering those closing arguments. let me walk you through, chris, if i can some of the written statements that were provided by the attorney general's office ahead of these closing arguments today to give us some indication as to the direction they're going to be heading in, saying quote, unquote, virtually every action they took in preparing these stations of financial condition was part of a fraudulent scheme. they claim that eric and don jr. are unable to carry on with his organization and should have a

court appointed monitor. they go on to talk about the old post office building in washington, d.c. saying they used fraudulent documents to win the bid to renovate and operate a hotel there profiting, by the way, and this is part of the reason why they increased the fines that they're asking for from 250 million to 370 million, profiting $140 million. they concluded in this statement, chris, by saying this, the conclusion that defendants intended to defraud when preparing and certifying trump's statements of financial condition is inescapable. the myriad, deceptive schemes they employed to inflate asset values and conceal facts were so outrageous, they belie innocent explanation. that is just a portion, chris, of what we are likely to hear over the next two hours when it comes to the prosecution's closing arguments. the former president has, in

fact, left the building after, as you just talked about offering his own version of those closing arguments in which he was then subsequently cut off by judge engoron, and then we're going to have to wait. wait and see when that decision is going to come down the pipe. judge engoron has been incredibly meticulous, incredibly cautious. he has taken time to come up with his decisions throughout the entire trial. we're expecting a decision when it comes to the fines and the trump organization and whether or not the former president can operate in new york city at all for the rest of his life by the end of the month. >> okay. so vaughn, it was not expected that the judge would allow donald trump to speak at all. what do we know about what happened? >> reporter: right. just 24 hours ago, the judge said that donald trump would not be able to speak inside the courtroom today because he and his legal team did not agree to the preconditions that donald trump would stick to only talking about the evidence that has been presented over the last

three months at trial. come here this morning, donald trump still showed up in lower manhattan, and before going in the courtroom, declared to the cameras that he was frustrated by that decision by the judge and take a listen to part of his remarks before going into that courtroom. >> one piece of paper, what we have run is a great company. that's been proven. very highly successful company. this was a political witch hunt for election interference, but also for getting somebody elected because she wanted to get the publicity. it's the disgrace, and they should pay me damages. >> reporter: fast forward, donald trump went inside the courtroom and was actually granted five minutes by the judge to speak, but he went outside of the parameters that the judge had instructed him to stick to, and instead, took a direct shot at letitia james, new york attorney general, sitting a few rows behind him there, noting that she hates him, and also took a shot at the judge, making the case there

inside of the courtroom during that statement of his that he had an agenda against donald trump. so, you know, this is where donald trump, obviously is much is on the line that hasn't been outlined here. he is going to try to make the case for the future of his company, and we expect a press conference in which donald trump will be speaking to cameras again in just about a half hour from now. >> yeah, and not in iowa where you would expect a candidate to be just days before the caucuses. let's go back to the legal part of this. as an attorney, i wonder what your reaction is to the judge's decision to allow trump to speak? >> actually, i was surprised the judge even gave him a few minutes. if you remember, there were some e-mails before the trial, between the counsel for president trump and the judge in which the judge said, will he stick to making arguments, talking about the evidence that is admitted in the case. the attorneys for trump did not

respond in the affirmative about that, and the judge got a little bit bullied by trump here, pushing to, you know, give a statement. it's what you would expect, he's trying to turn this into a circus, and it's crazy to just work, here on msnbc now talking about his statement, and his argument. all of the evidence, and the findings that they're going to be in this case. and really, the remedies that you put up a moment ago that i think are so important, chris. i think he did this as a distraction. he did it as a campaign or pr tactic, and to some extent it has worked. >> i don't want to get ahead of the prosecution, but the prosecution is going to have a couple of hours, and they will have their say. then renato, what does the judge look at? what are the most important parts of his consideration when he decides how he's going to

rule, and again, he has made it clear he's not dragging this out. he expects to tell us what is going to happen here by the end of the month. >> yeah, i do expect the judge to issue a written opinion sooner rather than later. this is an opinion that i suspect the judge has been already starting to draft because let's face it. trump's team was not making a lot of legal arguments that were going to move the needle here. in fact, the only lawyers on the trump side of things that were really making arguments that were going to try to move the needle were actually the lawyers representing trump's sons who actually, i think, was trying to make actual legal arguments. i suspect the judge is going to have a sweeping ruling, and i would really not be surprised, chris, if the remedies are basically very aligned to some of what you put on the screen a moment ago. hundreds of millions in penalty, but also some verynificant restrictions for trump's

businesses, which for a typical company would be almost akin to a death sentence. >> and we're going to talk a lot more about that coming up with some people who know donald trump's finances very well. but let me go back to vaughn, i mean, a lot of people believe that this was a better opportunity than trump could have had where you are in iowa, that he got to speak not only in court, but is now, as you mentioned, going to have a press conference. trump has gone after his legal as well as political enemy, and was asked during a prime time town hall last night about how much of a second term would be about retribution. take a listen to his response. >> i'm not going to have time for retribution. we're going to make this country so successful again. i'm not going to have time for retribution. and remember this, our ultimate retribution is success. we're going to have a success that's so great that i won't have -- hopefully, i won't have time for retribution. there won't be retribution,

there will be success. >> so on one hand, vaughn, his base loves his tough talk, things like retribution, but is what he's saying now, i didn't really mean it. in any case, legally, that wouldn't seem to be much of an argument for a judge. i was just kidding, right. i mean, what is he really saying? >> reporter: right, chris, i think over the last eight years, we have learned to take donald trump literally, not figuratively. every time he talks about retribution, we should take him seriously. donald trump is over the course of these months ahead going to be further squeezed into the corner of a room, not only what is at stake for him legally, he has four criminal trials in front of him in which his own freedom is on the line. you're also talking about his political future on the line in 2024, and here inside of this new york, lower manhattan courtroom, you're talking about his business future on the line, and when you hear donald trump talk about retribution, he's already gone after the likes of

his former vice president, mike pence, for certifying the 2020 election. you'll recall, there were ten republicans in the u.s. house that voted to impeach him in the after math of the january 6th attack. he went on the campaign trial to oust each of them, successfully removing eight of the ten including liz cheney from office. for donald trump, resident buks -- retribution is not a new thing. it's a word he's using in 2023, and 2024. this for him is only going to get more pressure feeling on him in the months ahead as these trials continue to move forward in the political primaries move forward as well. >> vaughn hillyard and yasmin vossoughian, thank you both so much. renato marriott you'll be back in a bit. are the properties that made donald trump famous really at risk.

we're back in 60 seconds with the answer.

what if it was suddenly trump tower without donald trump. some of the biggest buildings in the former president's real estate portfolio are at risk as his civil fraud trial nears its end. not only trump tower but trump park avenue, 40 wall street, 1290 avenue of the americas and two of his golf properties. joining me now, federal and white collar criminal defense attorney, caroline pelosi, and former u.s. attorney and former white collar defense attorney, paul charleston, "new york times" business investigations editor, and author of "towers," david enrick joins me as well. can you just explain what actually could be the penalties involving these buildings? is it that his name is stripped off of them, he can't manage them, he can't collect money off

of them. he might have to sell them to pay a fine. what are the very real world stakes here? >> yeah, it is kind of confusing, chris, and part of the reason it's confusing is because this is a bespoke remedy that the judge and the ag in her request is coming up with. because it's a very unique, really statute under which she can prosecute the organization. engoron has made findings, involving the business certificates, you'll recall, however, the implementation of those findings has been stayed. remember, he has already found that the trump org committed decades long financial fraud with respect to inflation of assets for the purposes of painting better business loans, and so, yes, you know, now we're seeing what the dollar amount in terms of disgorgement will be, and that could play into whether

or not the proceeds from some of these sales have to go towards that. there has been a monitor put in place sort of to keep the status quo with these companies, with these properties so that, you know, during the trial they can't run off, run away with everything and hide assets, so everything is being, you know, stayed right now. he is looking, because all of his business certificates are cancelled and he has ordered that he can't do business in new york, yeah, that absolutely could be the death nail for the company. >> so, david, talk about the company itself. what do we know about it? what do we know about a possible judgment this high, $370 million, what it could mean overall? >> well, that's a huge amount of money, even for a purported billionaire like donald trump. as the graphic showed a minute ago, he does have a lot of hard real estate assets in very valuable parts of the country,

and if the penalties of large numbers were imposed on him and survived appeal, he would face intense pressure to sell some of those assets. the reality is that trump, as far as real estate developers go actually has a fairly strong balance sheet. he doesn't have that much debt compared to a lot of other big real estate companie and so relatively speaking, it would be easier for him than for some other companies to actually raise that cash. that said, those are huge amounts of money we're talking about. i think at the very least, it would fundamentally alter the nature and the size of his business. >> so i'm being told that the attorneys for donald trump and the prosecutors are making their way back into the courtroom right now. donald trump, we understand, is not there. he had his say both outside of the courtroom as well as, as we know, a brief statement that

judge engoron allowed him to make and maybe preparing for the press conference that he says he's going to have a little later on today. let me ask you, paul, as a defense attorney, what about the upcoming statement from the prosecutors would make you most nervous, would make you think that donald trump and the business he built, and i think they are so intertwined, his ego and his actual, you know, as david points out, a pretty strong balance sheet in the real estate market. what's at stake here? >> so, chris, i think the defense attorneys here have to recognize that this case is over. it's over in as much as judge engoron is going to make a decision, and give the attorney general much, if not all of what she wants. the defense attorneys were arguing and making arguments today for two audiences. first, and i think pretty

obviously, their client, mr. trump, lots of drama, very little facts in law. and second they're making a record for the court of appeals. whatever this judge's opinion, and i say, is going to be a significant and perhaps, as mr. kise said in his closing arguments, the death penalty penalty for the trump organization. that's certainly going to be appealed and as it's appealed, the lawyers are going to ask the judge stay his decision. he hold off on forcing the companies to sell or cease doing business. that would be a supreme court appeal as well. this is going to go on for a long time. whatever this penalty is and however it's ordered and to whatever degree it's ordered, it's going to be a long time before former president trump will have to pay much if anything on this. >> one of the main arguments was a victimless crime, trump was a great client, much in demand, banks loved him. take a listen to what the former

president had to say just a little earlier this morning. >> lawyers said they were great loans. the bank got us the loans. they got paid. the banks were in perfect condition. the bankers were extremely happy with these loans. and there were no faults, no problems. >> the trump team said he was dealing with banks for 50 years, and as you pointed out, compared to other real estate development companies, his balance sheet probably looks pretty good. i wonder what you make of that argument he just made outside of court? >> well, he's right. i mean, in the sense that his one biggest bank, one biggest lender, deutsche bank was eager to be doing business with him. and it was a symbiotic relationship over a great many years with deutsche bank trying to make a name for itself in the united states and trump obviously desperate for cash that he was not able to receive from other banks after his

history of defaults. and i think from a legal standpoint, this is beside the point because as the other panelists have said, the judge has ruled that he, the financial statements that he and his company submitted to deutsche bank were fraudulent. having spent a lot of time talking to people inside the bank who were involved with the decision to make the loans, it's clear to me that they were relying to some extent on the financial statements. they were aware of trump's tendency so exaggerate and outright lie. i think they were taking his financial statements with a grain of salt, but there's no question that that was their first starting point in terms of how to decide what to lend him and under what terms. deutsche bank was happy with the relationship. but that does not speak to the question of whether or not they were tricked or duped by what trump was submitting to them. >> how key is that question, paul, whether they were tricked or duped? >> so it's going to go to the

materiality. it's going to go to how much it is former president trump will have to pay, and as everybody seems to be in agreement, and i think it is correct to say this judge is going to compel or order the judge. the judge will order former president trump to pay a specific amount of money. all you have to do is listen to the arguments he was making when he was trying to convince the judge that $2 billion wasn't a material misrepresentation. the judge had a hard time, as would any finder of fact, that that isn't a material misstatement. $2 billion delta, that's a hard fact for the trump team to overcome, and i think that's going to be one of the material facts that this judge is going to point to when he imposes a significant fine. >> paul charlton, car line polisi, and david enrich, thank you so much. i want to bring in mike memoli, he's outside the courthouse. there you see the suv, hunter

biden is inside. the president's son. pulling up to a los angeles federal courthouse where he's scheduled to be arraigned 40 minutes from now. tell us what you expect. >> chris, the president's son, hunter biden arriving through an underground entrance. we didn't see him come through the main entrance here. we are looking behind me, where the first floor courtroom, where this arraignment will take place. now, it's important, chris, to sort of establish why we're here because i think folks remember that original court proceeding that was taking place in wilmington, delaware, last summer, that was when the guilty plea as part of the plea agreement that had been reached between hunter biden's attorneys and the justice department was supposed to be agreed to, the tax charges and gun charges. we remember how that plea agreement fell apart. that led to that plea agreement being broken up into pieces and those charges being then brought again by the federal government in different jurisdictions.

you saw in october, hunter biden traveling again to that courthouse in wilmington, delaware, to plead not guilty to those gun charges, and then we saw a few weeks later, a new indictment on these tax charges brought out here in california where hunter biden has been living the past number of years. and so this proceeding will not begin for about another hour, and we expect it to be fairly quick, routine as we say where the judge will ask the prosecutors to once again lay out those charges, those nine separate charges, the six misdemeanors, failure to pay taxes, failure to file taxes, as well as felonies of filing a false return and tax evasion. he will plead not guilty to those charges. he has since paid back the taxes he owed during those years, 2016 through 2019. more than 1.4 million in taxes, and they say these kinds of charges typically would not be brought, this is, again, an

overzealous prosecution being influenced by political pressure on the part of republicans. hunter's attorneys will have a chance to file motions. they did file motions in the gun charges, trying to dismiss the charges. we could get a sense of the strategy in the hearing today. hunter biden has arrived in the courthouse and awaiting the start of the hearing in just over an hour. >> routine legalese, but complex politically. mike memoli, thank you for that. and if i may inject on another topic, a note of levity, i have been following the fact that we saw the lawyers go back into the courtroom in manhattan, and judge engoron noted that the courtroom, quote, was a lot more crowded this morning. obviously a reference to the fact that donald trump is not there and presumably people who went to the courtroom to see donald trump did not return once he left as well. coming up, ron desantis trying to avoid heartbreak in the hawk eye state. can his campaign survive a less than stellar finish in iowa?

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. four days out from caucus day and ron desantis is facing potentially a make or break moment. last night's republican debate with the florida governor was the final chance to make his case in iowa where his campaign has invested major time and money. a poor showing could knock him out of the race. chris christie who dropped his

bid for president last night seemed to skewer both the chances of desantis and nikki haley going forward, although he doesn't name haley specifically, and all of it was caught on a hot mic. listen. >> she's going to get smoked and you and i both know it. she's not up to this. >> she's still 20 in behind trump in new hampsre right. and still going to carry it. >> yes. i talked to desantis called me petrified. >> nbc's dasha burns is on the ground in west des moines, and david rucker, senior writer for "the dispatch," i wonder if that last person say out loud to chris christie frankly what a lot of people are thinking that desantis will probably need to exit the race if he does poorly

in iowa. >> reporter: because of all of the resources, all of the time and energy that he has put into this race, he's got to have a strong showing or it is going to be a problem. he didn't respond to the hot mic moment that caused this drama. speaking to our colleagues on "morning joe" this morning. take a listen. >> i served in fallujah and nothing about the political stuff would pet fi me. i don't know where he got that. i called him to offer him encouragement because i think he was treated poorly with people demanding he get out of the race. i didn't think he was going to get out based on my conversation. it's all good. i do think, not going to be a big factor in iowa. he wasn't competing here. in that system, we're all systems go through monday, and i think that's our sole focus. >> reporter: especially with his last minute plot, that's why what is happening in the room is so important. i'm at the never back down

headquarters in west des moines where all of these volunteers and folks are phone banking right now trying to make sure that those caucus goers are going to get out there and go. we know that the temperatures are not going to be kind on monday night. they're trying to get those precinct captains recruited. they already have more than 1,600 for the more than 1,600 precincts. those are folks in local communities that know their neighbors, going to get grandma and grandpa out through the ice and snow and the cold, and this is probably the closest, according to some of the operatives i talked to here, the closest that a republican campaign has come to replicating obama's operation that is so storied in politics. but this is also why if desantis doesn't have a strong showing, it could be a problem. they have knocked on more than a million doors in iowa, they have gotten the right endorsements, poured a ton of money into this. it's going to be hard to argue liability going forward, chris.

>> david, ron desantis has to have a good showing, a strong showing, not even a very distant second showing here. if he's legitimately going to stay in this race, i wonder what your take is on what you heard on the hot mic comment? >> i think desantis needs to finish second if he's going to have the resources to go into new hampshire and be competitive by any stretch. just behind me, nikki haley spoke for about 35 minutes or so to a room full of supporters. you can tell that she has a lot of confidence. now, her confidence, and that of her team, might be misplaced, but in talking to them last night after the debate and in watching her this afternoon here in ankeny, it was clear she feels like she has the wind at her back and can possibly finish

second ahead of ron desantis, and for her given the expectations and given how frugal and careful she's been with the resources that she simply did not have at a time when ron desantis had so much more, finishing second here would give her some -- a different kind of momentum heading into new hampshire where polls show her very close, and it would effectively knock desantis out of the race as a factor. as you know in these early states, winning is everything. we know trump is going or we at least think donald trump is going to win big here in iowa, and there's a real competition for second. that's been very evident in how desantis has been treating haley, where haley has the luxury of saying, i got past desantis in iowa, now i can focus on trump. and the question is, dasha is showing us those pictures there, will that never back down ground game deliver a surprise for ron desantis that over performs the

polls, and i don't think anything chris christie said yesterday means anything. his exit doesn't say anything. what he had to say about it doesn't mean anything. >> you mentioned the debate last night. let me play a little bit of what we heard, the two of them, desantis and haley going after one another. >> you're going to see the fact that he has switched his policies multiple times. >> she says she's always supported school choice and failed to deliver. she blames other people. leadership is about getting things done. stop making excuses. >> if leadership is about getting things down, how did you blow through $150 million in the campaign, and you were down in the polls. >> are either looking like someone who can take on trump. you said she seems to have a lot of confidence where you just saw her, are you seeing that voters see her as someone who can take on trump? >> i think in new hampshire there's clearly the belief that

she can take on trump, i talked to supporters here just a little bit ago, and they have a lot of confidence that she can really provide the kind of contrast that if anybody is going to defeat trump, she's different enough, and is adroit enough of a politician that she can get it done. i think most people are very realistic that nikki haley is going to have an up hill climb. ron desantis is going to have an up hill climb. donald trump has a large lead nationally. he leads big in the early states, maybe a little bit less in new hampshire. it depends on what poll you look at, and i think that's why it was so telling last night that ron desantis was focused so much on nikki haley when the position he wanted to be in was challenging donald trump for first. and even though he wasn't on the stage, he had the choice of really focusing on trump a lot more than he did and he did not. and his campaign strategy was, in fact, to get into a scrum with haley, and try and

neutralize her. he wouldn't need to neutralize her if he wasn't surging and threatening for second. that tells you where the candidates think this race is. obviously the voters are going to have the final say monday night. it's going to be possibly as low as negative 30 with the windchill. nikki haley said a little bit ago, it's going to be so cold like i don't even know what negative 15 is. it's going to possibly be as low as negative 30. we'll see how that turns out. that's where a ground game like desantis has, trump has could come in very handy. >> i have been in iowa when it's extremely cold. negative 30, good luck to both of u you. much appreciate you being there. dasha burns, and nathan drucker. donald trump no longer in court. he's at 40 wall street, a property of his discussed at length throughout the trial.

throughout new york it's known as a place where it has big vaults that people store their money and precious jewels and so on, i guess, gold, and those kinds of things. i don't have anything in a vault personally. all of that happening as attorney general letitia james' team is giving their closing arguments in the landmark civil fraud case, turning to whether or not trump's business team acted with intent when they manipulated their annual financial statements as part of a conspiracy. they say the answer is yes. there's donald trump who's not waiting for his case to be over. he's making his statements if he takes questions, we'll go to that then. but let's bring back former federal prosecutor renato mariotti. i wonder what you make of where the team started. they're focusing on intent, using the word conspiracy as i understand it inside that courtroom. >> that's right, you know, one feature of a conspiracy, if you're a member of a conspiracy,

you don't need to be involved in every part of the conspiracy. you don't need to know every part of the conspiracy to be held liable for all of the actions of the conspiracy. if me and you are working together to rob a bank, if i'm the get away driver, it doesn't matter that i wasn't the one pointing the gun at the teller or passing the note to the teller. ultimately, part of the point here is that even for people like eric trump or trump who are trying to argue that they had a very limited role, they were part of the conspiracy so they should be held liable and just liable as everyone else. >> let's go to donald trump who's taking questions now. let's listen. >> it was a quid pro quo if you remember that. if they don't drop the prosecutor, we're not giving them a billion dollars of u.s. funds. if you don't have immunity you

won't be making any decisions. i liken it to the fact that police have to have their control back. they have to have respect. and you could always have a bad apple. you can always have something happen but at the same time, you have to stop crime in this country. it's very much like that. it's very similar to that. but you have to have immunity for a president, and i think most people are seeing that. i have read a lot of legal reports lately, and scholarly reports that are saying you have to have a president of this country has to have immunity or they're not going to function in office. >> president trump, we're days away from the iowa caucus, what percent of your time is spent on your campaign, and what percent is spent on legal issues. >> civil and criminal ones are set up by joe biden, crooked joe biden. this is something that's never happened in this country.

even when you look at this, this is all about biden and her meetings. even the civil ones, they're set up by biden. every single, just about, case that i'm involved in is set up by biden. they're doing it for election interference, and in a way, i guess you'd consider it part of the campaign. if you look at t they are doing this. it's never been done like in in this country. it's like we're a third world country, a banana republic. every one of the things you write about are biden indictments and i don't know, we just had a poll, it just came out, and we're leading massively in iowa, we're leading very big in new hampshire. because the people understand this stuff. these are all set up. every time somebody sees me in court, remember, joe biden and his thugs that surround him did

it. so far we seem to do very well. >> are you going to be back in time for the e. jean carroll. >> that's another one, sponsored by reid hoffman. i never saw this woman in my life, other than a picture with her and her husband, jonathan lemire -- john johnson, she said horrible things about him. called him bad names. i have no idea -- >> we're hearing familiar themes from donald trump, but i think a key question that was asked just as we were going in was really the one of immunity. there were arguments on tuesday, a panel of judges listening to arguments, trump and his teams trying to make the case that while he was president, what he did was immune from prosecution. joining me, the host of "way too early" and "politico" bureau chief, jonathan lemire, throughout this as we have been watching what's going on in a

manhattan courtroom, jonathan, and there is no sense in trying to minimize, the idea that his business, his ability to do business in a state where he believed he had made it cannot be overstated, that the potential consequences for him. but when you talk about the idea of immunity, this is something that overarches every other case that's out there. talk about that as a driving issue for donald trump the man and donald trump the candidate. >> there are a couple of things going on here at once. donald trump is personally aggrieved by this case in new york. people have told me hits close to home. new york is where he was born, and where he made his home until recently, founded his business, made his fortune. all of that is in jeopardy, and certainly a blow to his ego as well as certainly a blow to his wallet, and there's real doubt

he would be able to pay anywhere near the fine, the penalty that may be levied in this case. there's the over arching idea of immunity. in the little bit we played right now talks about his example with president zelenskyy and quid pro quo, got him impeached the first time around. his lawyers went so far as to suggest a president could use navy seal team 6 to assassinate a political foe and he would have immunity unless it went through congress first. this is someone who is obviously deeply concerned about the legal matters he faces. as much as his campaign has used them as rallying cries, they have bolstered his poll numbers within the republican primary field, though a general election later this year might be a different story, but personally you can tell how anxious he is about this. it comes through in his remarks there, and in private conversations he's had. >> usa today captures just how

isring the outcome could be for donald trump. i want to read the quote. if letitia james prevails, he could be renders a tourist in the city and state where his by word is wealth and glamour. there is a personal aspect to this. for donald trump, there is very little daylight between how he feels personally and as you used the word aggrieved, i think maybe being a little kind about how he feels about all of this. he's furious about it, and donald trump the politician who has used that anger and that aggravation, and that persecution, feeling of a persecution complex very much to his advantage. >> that has fueled his political career. starting in 2016 when it was less about his own grievance and

more about him channelling the frustrations of his supporters, he tapped into something, this idea that the american dream had passed so many people by, and he certainly, look, gave license for people to have their darkest thoughts seem more acceptable. there's a lot of research that has gone into his connection with the 2016 electorate. certainly that populist rhetoric struck a chord. it was delivered by an unlikely messenger, appealed to the world white poor, as someone who lived on fifth avenue in a skyscraper that has his name imblazened in front in gold, suggesting that the deep state is out to get him. if they get me, he tells his supporters they can get you. for all of his flaws and we don't have enough time in the

day to go through them, he has some real political skills, and certainly this is one of them, where he can have messages that resignation -- resonate with his die hard base, and they are passionate for him. does that lead to an election in november, only time will tell. in this particular moment, it has allowed him to strengthen his grip on the republican party. >> i want to go back if i can and talk a little bit about what's going on right in a courtroom, and i want to read what judge engoron just said or was asked about. he was asked by trump's -- or rather the prosecution about the expert witnesses, and suggesting that the expert witnesses are, in fact, not useful, and i'm going to go back to you, renato

on this. and chris kise objected, this is the murderer's row, this is outrageous, what do you make of the idea from, again, the prosecution that the witnesses that were brought forward by donald trump's team are frankly not credible, not relevant? >> you know, chris, i really think that the presentation by trump's legal team was fit hand in glove with his own bombastic pr political strategy. you just had a moment ago a bunch of american flags behind him talking to the press while the civil theme from the attorney general's office was making their closing arguments in his trial in which he's already been found to have engaged in fraud. it's really, i think, a comment,

the policy of the judge understands that the attorneys before him were not trying to make legal arguments, legal points, i'll say to the viewers, if you're actually a lawyer trying to win a case. you do not try to, you know, stop at his hearings, stop at his rulings, scoff at what he is telling you to do in the courtroom. that to me is just a recognition by the judge that the expert witnesses put forth were not people that he could find credible, and, you know, much may be made of that by trump's team and some fundraising, you know, in the political avenue. from a legal perspective, it's a recognition by the judge he does not find those expert witnesses. >> we're not talking about the

kind of money in terms of fundraising that they're talking about in terms of the potential penalties here. renato mariotti, who has hung with us throughout this hour, jonathan lemire, always appreciate you my friend, i'll see you tomorrow morning on "way too early." coming up, a hotter than expected inflation report and what it could mean for your bottom line, but also 2024? als4 , i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...which if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it. talk to your health care provider about ways to lower your risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. learn more at getrealaboutdiabetes.com

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never taken corporate pac money - never will. leading the fight to ban congressional stock trading. and the only democrat who opposed wasteful “earmarks” that fund politicians' pet projects. katie porter. focused on your challenges - from lowering housing costs to fighting climate change. shake up the senate - with democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message. of hunter biden and donald trump may have in 2024 is unknown. but there is one certainty, one predictable thing on both sides in 2024, the economy will as it always does move voters and today we got new numbers, consumer prices rising 3/10 of a percent last month, pushing the annual rate to 3.4%. joining me now, christine romans, what we all want to know is what do these numbers tell

us? >> they tell the economy was strong at the end of the year, and the price problem is not fully vanquished yet. when you look at how prices have come down from 9.1%, the annual inflation rate in december of 2022, that is why inflation is issue number one for so many families. now you're down to 3.4%. in november, it was 3.1%. there has been real steady progress but this was a little hotter than expected. it shows you that progress isn't defined and perfect. this is a bump in the road there. a lot of people expect inflation to continue to come under control in 2024, but when you look at food, when you look at gas prices, shelter. shelter was half of the gain overall in inflation here was those shelter prices. we have more work to do, and i think what it means for so many people who are starting to feel better about what is a decent economy, it just shows you there is still more work to be done.

>> we only have 30 seconds left. it wasn't so long ago the main conversation i was having with folks like you was recession, recession, and then another conversation about recession. >> 2023 was supposed to be the year of the recession. it never happened, in fact, it was the year of resilience. there's a strong american economy. the wind is in the sails of the u.s. economy, even with all of the fed rate hikes. the question is what does the fed do with numbers like these. is this a oneoff, does inflation continue to decline, and at some point this year will the fed be cutting interest rates. the fed meets january 30th, 31st. maybe later this year they'll be comfortable enough to stop the tightening policy to cool down the economy and cut rates. not right now, but maybe later this year. >> christine romans, great to have you on the show. thanks for coming on. that's going to do it this hour. make sure to join us every weekday right here on msnbc. our coverage continues with

"katy tur reports" after the break. "katy tur reports" after e break.

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