so she doesn't read like that to them. and so that's what they are responding to. >> they use that you know party turn? >> all the time. all the time. >> it's fascinating we could write a book on this and i'll say this. david, what about desantis if he comes in third? >> well, we see historically candidates have a really hard time dropping out, particularly some who look like the frontline. but there's no path. whether you comes in second or third, he's gonna run out of road. he's got nothing after that. even if he comes in second, haley's good to go on into much better. so this is it. these are the last five days of his presidential campaign, in reality. >> david plouffe and sarah longwell thank you very much. that's all in on this thursday night. alex weighing near tonight starts right. now good evening, alex. >> thank you so is my friend.

we're going to be talking about all the breaking news this hour and then some. thanks for joining me. i want to tell you the story of two americas. the america donald trump loves and and the america everyone else lives in. >> and trump university, we take success. that's what it's all about. success. it is going to happen to you. >> that was donald trump's page for trump university two decades ago. he marketed his school as a short cut to financial success. you just had to pay him and his instructors first and then you would know everything you needed to make it big. the only problem was it was all a scam. as a result, trump eventually settled a civil fraud case for $25 million. and that case gave us real insight into how donald trump views the average american. >> trump university, a series

of for profit real estate say models launched in 2005. and promised donald trump would pick the instructors, but as a role, he did not. a set of rulebook for the sales team taught him how to market the courses to single mothers with three children make it money for food. >> that is how donald trump's america. a country filled with easy marks and fools to be scammed. a millionaire who deserves their money more than their children need food. at the same time, this is the america that everyone else lives and. this is francis. in 2022, she was scammed out of $655,000 from her retirement fund. by international criminals posing as tech support. that alone would be misfortune enough. but then francis got hit by $100,000 in taxes. texas on the transactions where

she was scammed out of retirement. texas on money she no longer has. if that shocks you, it is because that irs policy is relatively new. do you remember when trump and republicans posture a big, quote unquote, techs caught thin 20 different? the main thing that built it was cut taxes for the corporations and ultra wealthy. to make up for that ultra loss and government revenue, trump and his government allies in congress passed something called a casualty and theft deduction. that means, if you are the victim of a scam, you still have to pay taxes on the financial transactions involved and that scam. that is how frances sharples aimed it up footing the bill for all those ultra wealthy corporate tax cuts. after she lost her retirement money. democrats in congress just introduced about yesterday, trying to bring back the

casualty and theft deduction to let people like frances sharples amend her previous tax filings and get refunds. but right now, this is still the america most americans 11. they pay taxes on scams because trump and republicans made them. meanwhile, donald trump was in court today arguing he should not have to pay back election games from fraud. new york attorney she enroll laetitia james alleges that trump made hundreds of millions of dollars and profit from fraudulent and floating the value of his business and properties to get loans on more favorable terms, terms he could not have gotten without lying. and not only does think donald trump you shouldn't have to pay back the money he made from those lies, he thinks he deserves damages for event being on trial in the first place. >> this was a political witch hunt, election interference. but also forgetting somebody

elected because you want the publicity. it's a disgrace and they should pay me damages. that's that way it should be happening. >> here is mr. trump's version of justice and america. if you are the victim of a scam, to pet. you still have to pay taxes on the money stolen from you. but of trump commits fraud, forget about paying the penalty. he's the one who deserve damages. and if you dare to try and hold donald trump accountable, than not only are he worthy of his disdain, you are now in the crosshairs. today in court, trump lashed out at the judge overseeing this case. judge arthur engoron. and his six-minute rant, trump said what was happening in the courtroom was a fraud and that judge engoron had his own agenda. trump lashing out and a judge would be bad any day. but today started with that massive county bomb squad

rushing to judge engoron's house. someone had called and a bomb threat. there wasn't actually a judge -- bomb in that judges home. that is something known as swatting. calling and a fake crime to illicit massive police response, in order to secure someone. you might remember the same thing happened to the judge overseeing trump's federal election indifference case. police and fire trucks swarmed her house on sunday night after someone called in a fake shooting. someone tried to every thing to jack smith on christmas day. but still, donald trump lashes out at all of them. he vilifies them. and he believes that he is above the law. he is not. and today's case, the attorney general, look at james, is calling for donald trump to pay at 370 million dollar fine so he doesn't keep any of the profit from his fraud.

>> at the end of the day, the point is simple. no matter how powerful you are, no matter how rich you are, no one is above the law. and the law applies to all of us. equally and fairly. i trust that justice will be done. >> judge engoron said today he hopes to show a final decision here by january 31st. joining me now is so crane, new york times investigative reporter and mary mccord -- and an innocent b.c. legal analyst. thank you both for being here tonight. so, you are in the courtroom. and a lot happened there. there was a lot of back and forth we talked about on the show earlier this week about whether or not trump could give a closing argument. and the ruling from judge engoron was no. if he wouldn't agree to these limitations, he couldn't speak, but he did speak anyway.

how did that happen and how to the unsolved? >> in the limitations that were to be placed on him, that limitations that would be placed on any lawyer given closing arguments, any individual given closing arguments. you have to stick to the fact of the case. that's what donald trump declined his lawyers to do. that's why we didn't think he was going to be given closing arguments today. for the most part he didn't. but in the last minute, after a few of his lawyers got up, one of the lawyers asked if donald trump could speak and i think the judge said yes. i think a judge was inclined to let it go for a few minutes, because, if it's going up on appeal, he wants to let people speak. it is not a jury trial. he is judge and jury. it was wild. it was exactly what you would have expected. it was what we simple, for a bit of an unleashed animal came out. i am a victim, went after the attorney general, said a lot of

not nice things about her. and it kind of wrapped up. he's definitely playing the victim card again, this is a crime committed against him. at one point, his lawyer said he deserves not what's going on here, doesn't want to pay any money, but he doesn't have a middle. that sort of rhetoric we heard. >> damages and at. mary, what happened in the courtroom today gets at the heart of how difficult this balance is too strong for judges, and to some great prosecutors, but especially judges in terms of what trump can say and do. he? right there had been the official back and forth, no you can't speak, but when it comes down to that moment, the amount of pressure on this judge to let the former president and would be president once again say something is enormous. were you surprised by how this all unfolded? >> i'm not surprised. only because of this kind of behavior from mr. trump seems like something that would come to expect. and just because at one point he said, you know, he was no longer going to try to give a

closing argument, didn't mean he was stuck with. that we have seen him flip flop on things before. and i think it really did put judge engoron in a dammed if you do dammed if you don't situation. because, of course he wants to quorum in the courtroom. he wants that rose to be followed. and as sue said, that road for closing argument is you are getting the facts and the law. that matters more when there is a jury, because if you have something like what mr. trump said today in front of a jury, you could highly prejudice that case and the jury. so i think he did give mr. trump some leeway because this is a bench trial, because he's not worried about a jury. judge engoron knows what that law is. he knows how to apply it to the fact. and he wasn't really going to be swayed by mr. trump's antics. on the other hand, you know, had gave mr. trump a platform, essentially to just speak to his base, to speak to his voters, and to really flout the

rules that apply to a courtroom. to me, it's just another indication of him saying, i am above that law. the rules apply to me. our entire judicial system is a fraud. and unfortunately, overtime of repeating and repeating and repeating posting, he repaid them not just a judge endurance courtroom, he's set those kind of things about that case, the january 6th related case in washington, d.c., the federal case, the january 6th case in fulton county, georgia, via mar-a-lago documents case and florida. all of these, are you, know misuse and abuse of a criminal justice system. well, those are criminal. this one, of course, is several. and, again, i think this kind of think repeated over and over and over again, just like his lies about january 6th repeated over and over and over again, eventually people start people even. and the damage that does to our

institutions and the entire branch of our government, the judicial branch, i think it is really causing long term damage. >> it is a form of character assassination to for some of the charges. i want to circle back that in a second. but i want to talk about the trial, itself. this is closing argument. day 300 zip in the million dollars being sold here. wow. it was a big number, initially, when it was 2:50, i think. that number went up. can you sort of, for folks trying to understand the layman's terms, how the attorney general got to the number 300 and $70 million? >> let's back up a little bit. it's important. many people probably know, some people may not, there was a summary judgment unless. case that means there is already been a finding affront. donald trump is not looking at coming at the end of this, going down to ten or 20 million, or him finding hayes in effect not liable. he's been found liable on that

most serious counts in this case. that number is. 370 million. and a break it down for you. the number, 100 and $68 million is the first. number that's on saved interest for commercial properties. they are saying, if he hadn't submitted fraudulent documents, they questioned a fate of paid more. that number according to the attorney general comes out at 168 million. then the discouragement component -- post office hotel in washington. that is a hotel he famously owned when he was president. we heard a lot about it because there was a lot of whining and dining about it at the other end of pennsylvania avenue. the argument from the attorney general is a lot of fraudulent documents went into getting that loan, the profit should be discouraged. the same goes for another loan, he got for the sale of a golf

course in new york or for the load of a gold course in new york and the sale of the price of 60 million, those profits should be discouraged. those are the main components we're looking at in terms of the number of 370 million. the next question, is continuing, it is, what is this really going to commit? i've been at a lot of trials and you hear a number comes in, but lot of times it's been a class action lawsuit and then it gets whittled down to a pretty small number. i'm going to start with, i'm going to take a step at this, just for fun. >> i'm not a gambling person, so is, like i'm all! and >> i'm all in for this competition. >> watch for a bit, big number? >> it's interesting. at court, i was listening to some people, on tv, on msnbc, on deadline white house, about what the number was going to. be some very reasonable voices came out and said, there is no victim here.

the banks are, but they're not sympathetic. >> that money is not going to the bank, it's going to the state. >> it will go to the taxpayers and general services of new york. and so that was one thing, it's not like, there is no real victim we can feel sorry for here. and the numbers might come down. in fact, it might come down. but i have to say, and i thought a lot about this. i was sitting in court and we were just leaving. everything was wrapping up. and judge and durham, right at the end, and the attorney general head wrapped up their arguments. and judge engoron had one question. he looked at the lawyer for the attorney general and says, how does this case compare to bernie madoff? >> wow! >> and i went, wow. like, the judge has bernie madoff on his mind. and that is the largest ponzi

scheme in history. happened right after that 2008 financial crisis. it was entered the billions. the answer was, of course, this is smaller. >> but he's thinking about. >> the fact he was thinking about, that i have to say, i would think -- and he's already come in and, he's already come in and found that trump to be liable. he said there is a court full of evidence. i'm going to go out there and say i think it's going to come in on the higher. and often think it will come closer to the old man, it will be closer to the new. that's my feeling. >> i love -- when you say, when you invoke the specter of madoff, that is significant. >> this is the judge that it's going to decide that number. so who knows? of course, we know in a couple of weeks. but when i heard, that i thought wow, that's for his. minus >> mary, really quickly, in terms of what's being said about these judges. the fact this kind of behavior

from trump, this talk about his immunity on the 41 straight property, talk about the assassination of political enemies. on a day when judge engoron has the bomb squad sent to his house, how are you looking at the terrain for those who seek to hold mr. trump accountable? >> this is what they are going to be facing, right? as any case goes to trial, i think one of the most likely to go is the january 6th case in d.c.. also that manhattan d.a. bragg case. this is what they know they're facing. we've heard protection for jack smith is something like four point $4 million in just part of his term as special counsel, for him and his staff. we know marshals protecting judge chutkan in d.c. our around the clock protecting. her even yesterday, tuesday,

i'm sorry, to protect that courthouse when mr. trump decided to shut up for agreement before the circuit. these are huge expenditures. and every time somebody gets attack, swatted, all that law enforcement have to respond. think about that resources drained and diverting their attention from other important things they should be responded to. so i actually to hold that our supreme court justices who are going to at least be rolling on the 14th amendment, section three disqualification question. they may be ultimately on the immunity question. i hope they're keeping in mind the damage that mr. trump -- and the role on the case is based on the fact and the law and deal hold up predominantly on interpreting the law. but i hope they're paying attention to the efforts he is undertaking to completely, completely undermine our rule of law, our system of how we use the courts and this country,

how they've been used for hundreds of years. people abide by the rule of law, they abide by judgments of the courts, they abide by rules that judges in court rooms. he's just violating all of that. >> sue and mary, thanks both for your time and wisdom this evening. i appreciate you both. we have a lot to get to tonight, including what republican runner-up nikki haley is willing to do when it comes to taking on donald trump. but first, what does chris christie's except for that race main for nikki haley or joe biden? the great steve kornacki joins me to talk about that, coming up next. up next.

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- like me? - (chuckles) no, the people watching us right now at home. we hope you'll call the special number on your screen right now. - you'll need making sure our amazing doctors and nurses can keep helping kids like us who need them now and in the days to come. - with your gift of $19 a month, we'll send you this adorable love to the rescue blanket as a thank you and reminder of the kids you're helping with your monthly support. please, call now, or you can go to lovesshriners.org. chris christie left the 2024 presidential race vowing he would not go quietly into that could. not today, we learned one platform has already presented itself should governor christie wish to say more. sources tell nbc news, not labels, the political organization trying to put

together a third party ticket breached out to mr. christie through donors and allies before he left the race. christie's campaign says he has not spoken to note labels but neither the campaign nor the man has rolled out a third party run. former senator joe lieberman, chair of no labels, thanks it might be time for a second look. >> look, earlier in the year, when he was asked about no labels, he basically said it was not an effort that had any chance of succeeding. but maybe the world will look different to him now. and i'd like to reach out to him and see if he, governor kristi, is at all interested and being on a bipartisan no labels unity ticket this year. he could be a very strong candidate. >> joining me now as americas sweetheart, steve kornacki, based in use national political correspondent. stay, not only are you a

political savant, you are also a jersey expert. i think you understand the mind of christy better than most. do you think it is all, somewhere in his mind, summer, front, metal, back remind, to keep investing as a third party candidate? >> i bet it's summer and has. mind i'd guess there is probably not in a clear intention to do it now. but if you think about what seems to be emitting his presidential campaign, he talked about this openly. he had that desire to meet donald trump onstage in the debate. he kept selling it as the thing that would happen, and it never happened. there is no guarantee, if he were to run as an independent or take that no labels nomination, there is certainly no guarantee there's even going to be debates fistful, let alone debate that would include a third party candidates. but here's clearly longing for the opportunity to go toe-to-toe, face to face with donald trump. and i think if you saw an

avenue that would get him the, i think it have some interest in it. but the viability question, with no labels, ballot access. he's sick the unpredictability -- >> go toe-to-toe to stick it to donald trump, what the threat of actually giving it to donald trump. if you look at the four party members, they're not insignificant. they are clearly an issue, potentially, and this campaign, in general. rfk junior, 20%. cornell west, 14. jill stein, chris christie, someone else, i'm not sure. that's incredibly volatile. for the stage of the game. when you are talking about an incumbent president and a former president. >> i've noticed in the polling, too. it's a bit over the place. but it seems that when they include third-party cadence, first of. all lot of times, these polls, four different third-party names out there. and that names don't actually mean anything to people but that the come at none of the above, of like trump, i don't

like biden, i'm john with smith. there is an element of it, certainly. but some of these included rfk and them. the numbers coming back, some of them, and the teens, low twenties. some still and single digits. but i do think back to 1922, 40 years ago. that last time you had a third party candidate register double digits. ross perot. when they started, you got as high as 40% in post, at one point. serious talk when the election. that was because of the economy was not in a good place and people had soured on the incumbent, george bush senior. at least through most of that campaign, people hit a serious question about bill clinton, his character, honesty. the old slick willie amity. had a setup of that, people got very interested in the third party candidate, ross perot. there is that just taste -- and all the polls we see. the state up for a third party can to could garner more support than we are used to seeing. >> the volatility and the

potential general matchup and then this sort of stasis in that republican campaign, right? broadly speaking, it feels like chris christie's exit is to the benefit of nikki haley. i'm interested in but south carolina. i think it nikki haley comes and and went new hampshire, comes very close to donald trump 100, that's an interesting telephone. but the real proof in the pudding is whether that momentum carries for. she's the former governor of south carolina. do you think there's a world where she could really pose a threat donald trump to? >> you are right, that will be the test, especially because it's her home state. it's hard to see for a couple of reasons. some's demographic. trump is doing very well. we've seen this. he seems to have a strong, political bond with evangelical christians. that's powering him in iowa and one of the reasons haley is doing well, it has one of the smallest shear is -- two thirds in iowa, maybe 25%

in new hampshire, go down to south carolina, over 70%. you've got something like that working. there if she wins new hampshire, it is on independent voters and on voters who don't necessarily like donald trump, trump skeptic or hostile voter. it trump can turn around and sent most republicans in south carolina and if we are like donald trump a lot. he can make it a loyalty test. he can say, she got votes from people who don't like me, who aren't republicans, who aren't one of us. you want to stop with, her with the media? i'm sure he'd work that into. or do you want to side with me? that kind of low to this. everything we know about that republican party right, now trump would have utmost case numbers to carry -- >> when you told about republicans not liking donald trump, the few who come out in the blizzard and iowa and caucus for nikki haley or ron desantis. same thing, independents, new

hampshire. when biden is looking at the soul of those republican voters, do you think there is a world in which they say, we don't like donald trump enough to vote for joe biden? understanding that their person is not going to make it through the primary process. >> typically what happens with this, to when you test the third party candidates, they do decline in support as the campaign goes on. and people look and end up saying, i want to vote with someone who has a chance for winning. you do, see a lot of times, third party candidates before best now and fight as we get towards the election. i did not was a poll in michigan last week that got attention. in the two-way head to head, trump eight points up against joe biden. but then they tried a competition of third party candidates. one of the names they put it was liz cheney. if chris christie has some appeal as an independent candidate, it would probably beat the same voters list china would appeal to -- so i think, that gives us a

hint of where christy might -- >> they don't like trump enough, but not that much. like chris sununu, bill vote for that republican over the democrat, every single time. okay, steve kornacki, we are going to be hearing a lot from you. and that the last may, even as though democracy might be circling around the train. thank you for your thoughts. still more to come tonight's neck and it takes at number two spot in that republican primary, or it is very close to it. is she actually ever going to take on donald trump? plus, some breaking news as that u.s. and a coalition of allies strike at iran-backed militant attacking ships in the right seat to protest israel's invasion of gaza. is it that beginning of a wider war? de war? nice to meet ya. my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years mainly because i just love helping people. as i got older, it was just a natural part of aging, i felt that my memory was beginning to decline and that's when i started looking for something

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that fund politicians' pet projects. katie porter. focused on your challenges - from lowering housing costs to fighting climate change. shake up the senate - with democrat katie porter. we're following breaking i'm katie porter and i approve this message. news tonight out the middle east or the united states and the united kingdom carrot at target strikes against iran aligned houthi militants in yemen. they have been a taken shipping corpse into red sea, one of the world's busiest waterways, and declaring the attacks are to protest its world military campaign and gaza. and estimate confirming the, attack president biden said the attacks have gone well beyond israel, affecting more than 50 nations and the crews front more than 20 countries have been threatened or taken hostage and acts of policy.

earlier this week, the american and british navy shot down at least 21 drones and missiles from houthi rebels in the area intended goes shots as a warning. for months now, the biden administration's been trying to avoid a water conflict in a region already in turmoil. but houthi rebels have continued to target the shipment routes and their leaders have said they're comfortable with a direct confrontation with america. joining me now is former deputy national security adviser in the obama administration -- been, thanks for being here tonight. the same like an extraordinarily difficult line for the white house to walt, calibrating how much is enough to try and get the houthi rebels to stop and how much is too much that will draw that u.s. into a war with iran. what do you make of that decision here and the throat of careful deliberation? >> i think this is a pretty major escalation, alex. there is a question that that

u.s. military has a responsibility and a right to protect shipping and the red sea. there is a commonly understood right to freedom of navigation and right of ships to proceed without harassment. the idea iota military harassment against who's ships harassing those container ships and other officials in the red sea, including u.s. military vessels, that's one thing. to go after the houthi command and control infrastructure and the houthi bases in yemen, that's a different thing. that's what the administration head restraint from doing at this point. the reason why is, once you do that, you potentially open pandora's box. they are connected to a network of groups that could take action against united states that in iraq that could escalate the war across the region, in yemen, that could ultimately lead to a regional war with the draws in iran. the states in this are

enormous. the the worst may be looking at why does this matter much. it's because of the skate out of control, if it's pearls, this could lead to a truly regional war. and that's what we want to avoid. >> i remember, shortly after october 7th, wondering. and i think i asked john kirby, at the time, what prevents this from becoming an actual war between that u.s. and iran? not that i'm some sort of cassandra. but that was -- the iranian shadow and all of this has been constant. and i wonder, against that backdrop of south africa calling israel to the international court of justice for claims of genocide, that degree to which the u.s. is dramatically, drastically rethinking its relationship to israel in this war in gaza? >> well, look. the reality is, the longer the

israeli military operation goes on in gaza, the more there is risk of escalation in various places. we see right now that risk of that escalation in lebanon, where hezbollah -- which has been going tit-for-tat, back and forth with azriel. that risks boiling over into conflict and which there's essentially a war and lebanon. you see it in iraq. we are the u.s. has taken military strikes in baghdad, which we rarely do, because of iranian-backed militias taken strikes at u.s. military personnel in syria. so iraq could boil over. now you see it in yemen with this military action against the houthis. and there is good race and to protect shipping into red sea. that's an absolutely valid and necessary objective. at the same time, you are not going to debate the houthis militarily with just a few airstrikes. keep in mind, there was a multi-year war against the houthis, backed by the u.s., i

think a mistake in the obama administration to begin to support the saudi-led effort -- that did not eliminate the houthis. so you are not going to eliminate them and for airstrikes if several years of military campaign didn't. i think we're not saying, the risks, the longer this goes on in the middle east, the more one of these pots could boil over. the more that there is a risk to u.s. service members. and the administration is balancing against trying to protect things like freedom of navigation, trying to deter iranian-backed proxies from doing things escalate. but at the same time, we're kind of getting drawn into this quicksand component. and i can say this, alex, as someone who's been in the white house for eight years. the middle east has a quicksand component. it can draw you in. the last thing anybody once as a full scale regional war. but unless there's some problems here, that's the momentum that i feel happen right now. >> you talk about, you mentioned the obama

administration with yemen, joe biden was part of that administration. joe biden oversaw the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan. he knows well these lessons. can't you talk about the chain of command in terms of decision-making here? i ask this because the secretary of defense is in the hospital and has been there for sometime. he's still issuing some statements. but you have been inside his rooms. this is very much biden's call, it always is. but given the fact his defense secretary is not there, can you talk about how it works in a crisis point like this? >> i think it becomes a very white house centered thing. when you are taking military action that is new, it is one thing when there is a strike against another on his target, another al-qaeda target. or even and the context of the last several weeks against the iranian-backed militia that is harassing our troops and syria. this is a new thing to go after targets in yemen, who the targets in yemen. that cross a new line. new legal line, a new military

objective. and that ultimately becomes a white house decision. up presidential season. so i'm sure there's been a flurry of meetings, about what do we stop this harassment of shipping into red sea, how do we stop these attacks on u.s. military vessels into red sea. you have those meetings at various levels and ultimately it gets tied up for president biden. here is what we can do. we can continue to go after them into red sea when we stay them or we can go after them in yemen. and ultimately that comes to his desk -- the defense department presents a range of options, here is what we can do. we can do this in the red sea, we can do this in yemen. you can decide how far to turn the dial. and i think what we see with president biden today is a frustration with what the houthis have been to move into red sea, but also willing to take some risk. the houthis are lucky to respond. it may not just be in yemen. it could be other iranian-backed militias in iraq,

going after u.s. targets, their u.s. embassy there. he's risking that in favor of trying to send a message that, hey, back of shipping in the red sea. we made what we say. you can't do this. >> indeed, the houthis have said preemptively they are comfortable with a direct confrontation with america. so we live with. there ben rhodes, my friend, always good to see you. thank you for your expertise and time tonight. coming up, rightly or wrongly, chaos follows him. that has been former governor nikki haley's tepid critique of the republican front runner since the start of her campaign. should we, can we expect anything to change if it becomes a 2% rise? that is next. that is next

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baby: liberty. can you say “auntie”? baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ >> i believe president trump is the right president at the right time. and i agree with a lot of his policies. but the truth is, rightly or wrongly, chaos follows him. i personally think president trump was the right president at the right time. i agree with a lot of his policies. but the reality is, rightly or wrongly, chaos follows him. i agree with a lot of trump's policies. i think he was the right president at the right time. chaos follows him. >> is it chaos follows emergency create the chaos? that sounds so passive.

pick chaos follows him. >> rightly or wrongly. you call it whatever you want to call. it but when you feel, it it's chaos. >> when you feel it, it's chaos. rightly or wrongly. chaos follows him. throughout this campaign that has been nikki haley's line about donald trump. it's not that she disagrees with trump's policies or his behavior. it's just that he is plagued by some sort of horror movie curse. chaos follows him like a bad smell or a piece of toilet paper stuck to his shoe. rightly or wrongly. but now, for the first time, former governor nikki haley is in a position to become trump's main rival. and so last night we got the new gloves off nikki haley, the one who finally isn't afraid to criticize donald trump. >> i think he was the right president at the right time. i agree with a lot of his policies. but his way is not my way. i don't have vengeance. i don't have vendettas.

i don't think take take things personally. >> i mean, i guess that's better? at least obliquely suggests that donald trump is somehow responsible for his own behavior. but this is hardly the kind of actual criticism you might expect from someone who's trying to beat a man running double digits ahead of her for the republican nomination. the truth is, when it comes to don trump, governor haley does not have a hard line to take. she's already committed to pardoning donald trump, even if, if she is elected president. she has already committed to voting for donald trump if he is eventual nominee. -- -- is this. >> do you agree with the argument on trump's lawyer made in court that the president should have immunity for any conduct, including in ordering this fascination political

rival unless that president is impeached and convicted by the senate for that offense. first >> no. that's ridiculous. we need to use some common sense here. >> when your political opponent is advocating in court for the right to assassinate his rivals, a group that, by the way, could include nikki haley, common sense dictates that one should make a very clear contrast with that rival a top priority. nikki haley is not ready to take on donald trump and she probably isn't even interested and i will talk to form republican strategist miller about that and more, coming right next. about that and more, comin right next right next >> ( ♪♪ ) with the push of a button, constant contact's ai tools help you know what to say, even when you don't. hi! constant contact. helping the small stand tall.

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>> quick to raise your hand and has been cautious in extreme as to expressing any criticism of donald trump. so now the chris christie's out of the race and ron desantis is slipping even further in the polls, the likelihood of a two person race between nikki haley and donald trump is increasing by the day. so does anything change? can anything change? joining me now, tim miller, writer-at-large at the bulwark. tina, does nikki haley want anything to change? i will say, i think it's kind of awkward to imagine this becoming a two person race. i have a hard time imagine nikki haley's digital team is going to be setting up a trump lies.com website that she will evoke. >> rightly or wrongly.

it doesn't seem like she's going to be taking donald trump on anytime soon. the whole thing is very bizarre. when i was in iowa a few months ago, i was asking -- about this. there's no other analog to this. a contest where one candidate is winning by 30 points, they are just viciously insulting the second place candidate, calling them a bird brain, saying they're a warmonger. anything under the sun. and the canada that is losing by 30 points, the only thing that they can say to criticize the leader is something very passive, very passive voice, passive aggressive. it's not how any campaign that i have ever been on or any scene that wants to win has presented itself. it's not it's hard not to come to the conclusion that she's not really trying. there's not a real path to victory, so i don't know if she has 2028 on her mind or if she's just lacking attention, or if there's a vp. i can't get inside her head.

but this is not a campaign to win. she's not running a campaign to win. i don't think we need to pretend that she is. >> what is interesting is, are sort of desire to curry favor with trump extends to her desire to curry favor with the trump base and later into these strange intellectual rabbit holes, where she's asked about the root cause of the civil war and can't say slavery. i mean, this sort of soft chewing around the elephant in the room extends to literally any topic that treads on, you know, a desire or an animating idea close to the trump base. it's so weird. >> it is. i think chris christie can add a number on this one. he said she hasn't want to offend anyone. she wants to pretend that she does tough talk. she wants to say she's tough what you're talking about an easy target. but when something comes up with the maga base or even evangelical base, the non maga evangelical base, with voters who needs to win in new

hampshire, she doesn't know what to do. it was too about the civil war, it was too about abortion. it's true about answering what to do about donald trump and pardoning him. so it doesn't feel like she wants to offend anybody and you end up with a campaign that's kind of for nobody. and i think that where she's going to end up is, she'll have all of the people but didn't vote for donald trump in the first place, which is the chris christie voters, maybe a small minority of ron desantis voters. maybe it's enough to win one primary in new hampshire where a lot of independents show up. but it's not enough to win the nomination of the republican party. so it's like, why are you putting yourself in this awkward situation where you're not telling the truth about how you feel in order to run a campaign that is destined to lose? >> maybe she just really likes debating ron desantis. i say that with a bit of irony. tim miller, my friend, thank you so much for joining me at the end of this very busy news night. i appreciate you. that is our show for this evening. now