suspect are going to lean in favor of the state attorney general's office. it is a question, and judge engoron noted this when he talked about the level of liability that he saw with respect to intention around both donald trump jr. and eric trump, which was, quite frankly, a little bit of a surprise. after determining the liability on those remaining six counts, the judge will then look at whatever information has been presented by both parties in terms of the actual worth of the trump organization and the level of intention, and then levy a penalty based on that. i suspect it is going to be higher than the $270 million that was originally requested but lower than what the attorney general's office currently seeks at some $370 million. >> all right. we're up against the clock, but we'll have you back real soon. we appreciate it. msnbc legal analyst charles coleman, thank you for joining us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this friday morning and all week long. "morning joe" starts right now.

haley and desantis did go after each other with haley presenting herself as the candidate of the future. >> we need a leader that is not looking at four years and eight years. we need a president that is looking at 20 and 30 years. >> good news, the frontrunner is looking at 30 years. 20 with good behavior. [ applause ] >> ah-ha. ♪♪ >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, january 12th. willie, so much to talk about today. let's see, front page of the papers, "daily news," "we will not be speaking." not sure where "morning joe" paper of record is today. i guess because ms. bumiller is here, out of respect, they gave us "the new york times." "new york times," of course, talking about the missile strike against the houthis. "washington post," also, we have the strike as the lead.

on the other side, trump's trial. "wall street journal," inflation ticking up. yeah, willie, nothing in there also about all the coaches that just sort of yesterday was -- the harvest, my friend. i mean, one great coach after another gone. >> as always, the paper of record delivers, right on cue, joe. here is the back page of "the new york post" saying, "belichick done torturing jets after 26 years, six crowns with pats." the question, does he coach again? there's atlanta talk. you raised the possibility of dallas, if they choke in the playoffs. the fans get restless there. do you think he is done coaching? >> i do not think he is done coaching. it was a classy exit with him and robert kraft yesterday, patriots owner. belichick made it clear, and

kraft hinted, as well, belichick doesn't see himself retiring. he's just short of the all-time wins record held by don shula, which people say is important to him. he is still a great, great coach. there are some franchises that are rumored to be in the mix here. atlanta seems to be in the favorite right now. the los angeles chargers, good, young quarterback. if a team flames out quickly in the playoffs, they may say, hey, we're a coach away. i think the cowboys are the top of the list. >> let's listen to bill belichick yesterday. an amicable breakup, at least publicly, between him and the new england patriots. >> appreciate the fans, all the support they've given me, my family, and this football team. it's with -- there's so many fond memories and thoughts that i think about the patriots. i'll always be a patriot. i look forward to coming back here. but, at this time, you know,

we're going to move on. i look forward and am excited for the future, but always be very appreciative of the opportunity here, the support, and, you know, what, robert, you've done for me. thank you. >> that's an amazing handshake. >> dynamic. >> i was going to say, going out the way he always did at the podium. muttering how grateful he was. >> i had oatmeal for breakfast but it was 2% milk on it, yes. hey, willie, we've done something wrong all these years, apparently. >> oh. >> you know, we expect to win emmys every year. >> oh. >> sometimes we win so many emmys, you know, it's like, but we don't have enough people to give these emmys to. our friends at espn figured out a solution.

they made up fake names for emmys. willie, what's that about? [ laughter ] >> reminds me of your famous, well, infamous cable lace scandal of 1986. boy, did you clean up that year. >> i did. they're still in my men's cave. you do in and see it, yeah. >> this is when you can tell you really miss mika. >> yeah, it's friday. mika is not here. everybody is in a lot of trouble. it is going to be a long four hours. >> we start up like this, kind of looking around. >> somebody jump in. >> we're ready for miles to turn around, yell at us, and start playing. >> yeah, it is a little bit hard to explain, but college gameday, which is a great show, and everyone on the show is great,

but they were changing names to rack up more emmys. espn returned 20 some of them. i think we've covered every story on the front page of the paper now. we can all go home. >> i'll take some pictures here. all right. smile, everybody. >> he does this. >> yeah. yes, i do. that's a good picture, willie. >> if you are watching, please come into work. we apologize. >> exactly. willie, we actually have some news, and it involves something the biden administration has increasingly been getting pressured for, attacked for by people on the right, for not responding to houthi rebels who continue to fire missiles into the red sea. last night, the response. >> yeah, that actually is the top story above the fold here in "the new york times." the u.s. missiles hit houthi rebels' facilities in yemen. the u.s. and its allies launched military strikes against the iranian-backed houthis in yemen. officials say they struck over 60 targets at 16 locations last night, using more than 100 precision-guided munitions. the targets included command and

control nodes as well as munition depots, production facilities, and air defense radar systems. houthis claim at least five people were killed. this was in response to more than two dozen attacks that houthis have been launching at commercial ships in the red sea since november. the group launched the largest attack yet, directly targeting american ships, joe. as you said, this was something that, finally, the united states and uk together said, cannot stand. you cannot attack commercial ships through the red sea. a strong response last night. >> right. it was a response that they saw coming. >> yeah. >> we kept warning the rebels, and they kept firing at the ships. >> the houthis clearly expected, almost wanted this attack. they'd launched a new wave of attacks on tuesday, i think 18 different missiles targeting shipping since november that had more than two dozen attacks on

shipping in the red sea. finally, pow, the u.s. decided to go big in the strike. that's a lot of munitions, 100 precision munitions, 60 targets. this is more than just sending a message. this is trying to reestablish deterrence, which clearly has been failing. the houthis, this rebel group controlling yemen, are essentially beginning to shut down shipping in one of the most important waterways in the world. the united states and its partner haves a problem. i'm told that the u.s. considers freedom of navigation in places like the red sea an absolute red line. that's what we're prepared to commit forcefully. we waited for weeks. finally, the response came. i think there is enormous fear in the white house that this will be part of a cycle that will now lead us into a new phase of the war that began in gaza, a wider phase. you'll have other iranian-backed

militias like the houthis thinking, well, i have to show what i can do, too. you may see an increase in attacks from iranian militias in iraq, from hezbollah in lebanon. all these dangers were factored in. in the end, joe, they decided they had no choice given the level of attacks on shipping but to take a hard response. >> the goal was actually to have an effect, not just send a message, but actually keep them from, deter them from the attacks and make it less possible they'd do it, with the wide range they had -- you know, they hit drone bases, missile sites, radar sites. it was a concerted effort to stop this for now. >> sometimes you're checking the box that says, "military strike." this was more than that. this was a very targeted attempt to take out the capabilities that have been harassing shipping. >> right. susan, there were 2,000 strikes against shipping thus far. five countries have gotten

involved in this. it wasn't just a u.s. operation. it was, again, just five allies saying, "enough is enough." >> you know, rumsfeld had a saying, if you can't solve a problem, make it bigger. could that work in this case? we have a problem that has been so difficult to solve between israel and hamas. could making this conflict bigger be helpful, or is this something that is of great concern and alarm, do you think? >> there has been concern about the wider war, but it's also true that the u.s. and israel both believe that iran does not want to see a direct confrontation with either the united states or israel. so if you expand it to the point that you're near that confrontation, there is some natural pressure to begin to de-escalate it. none of the parties want it. in the short run, i think that these individual proxies will continue to act. they'll want to show, we're as tough as those houthis. you could get a spike up in

violence. i think the israelis, for the moment, feel calmer than they did a couple weeks ago about their northern border. >> right. you know, i've been searching for years, susan, for the worst geopolitical advice in american history, and you just provided it. >> you're welcome. >> from the late don rumsfeld. >> i couldn't participate in the coach talk. >> you have a problem, make it bigger? >> actually, this is one of rumsfeld's famous sayings, which i've applied in my own life. i get stuck and i think, let's make it worse and see if it helps. not often helps but, you know. >> i wouldn't apply that geopolitically. make it bigger. speaking of bigger, obviously, this draws in iran. there have been questions, a lot of questions about iran and their hand in all of this, from october 7th through the houthi attacks. obviously, they fund them.

how aggressive do they want them to be? how aggressive do they want hamas to be? i'll say, in my contacts across the middle in the past two administrations, and some of those contacts very negative toward the biden administration who usually say, "oh, they're too easy on iran," i keep hearing that the iranians were surprised by the extent of the attacks on october the 7th. wanted to tamp it down. also, the iranians, the last thing they want is a regional war. we're sitting here worried about a regional war. if we provoke too much, i'm hearing the iranians, it is the last thing they want right now. >> that message, joe, has been heard by israel, the united states, you and me from our sources. the iranians have been pushing that line, "we don't want a wider confrontation." the only thing that you have to remember is that israel was convinced before october 7th

that hamas did not want a wider confrontation. they had totally bought into the idea that hamas really wanted, you know, challenges, yes, but they wanted a policy of co-existence, and it proved completely wrong. that's what haunts israel. they have the same analysis you do, that iran would be crazy to go to a larger war. but there is this haunting memory, and i think that's why everybody is a little bit on tenterhooks now in the aftermath of the strike against the houthis. we just don't know what the response will be. we hope, we think that it'll be fairly limited, but nobody can be sure. that's why the white house has really been agonizing over what they did yesterday. they've been thinking about it for weeks, wondering what the right package of targets was. it's the best known secret in town. >> right. >> but here it is, and now we have to wait and see. >> i have a question about the operation, and maybe you don't know the answer to this, but, obviously, this is taking place

in the backdrop of what was happening with lloyd austin. gone for three days, unexplained absence, in the hospital, clearly sidelined. did that affect the timing of this? there has been a lot of criticism from some factions. some of the factions say they shouldn't have done it without the authorization of congress. some say, you waited too long. deterrence wasn't working, and we should have acted quicker. was the austin factor a reason why this took so long? >> i don't think so, sam. i think the austin situation is its own thing. it's not a capital problem, but it was clearly a mistake. discussions with britain have been continuous the last two weeks. >> it's pick targets, something he would approve, but he wouldn't be in the weeds. >> reports are he was approving it from the hospital bed. >> sure. but he wasn't planning it from the hospital bed. >> i think signed off on it from the hospital bed would be roughly the right phrase.

>> fair enough. >> i've just got to ask, how does the general -- how does the secretary survive this? >> well, i don't see him being fired. >> why not? >> because joe biden likes him and basically trusts him. >> would any other secretary of defense survive this? >> um -- >> he went awol for three, four days. he's in the nuclear chain of command. >> so the problem at the pentagon in terms of lack of communication didn't begin with the hospitalization of lloyd austin. it has been a continuous problem to this administration. he is not a communicator. he is a person who is really allergic to talking to media. >> shouldn't someone have said,

"he'll be in the hospital?" >> no one worried about the pentagon not communicating with general milley. he was out there. with the new chairman, successor brown, good officer but very restrained, you have a top team at the pentagon that just doesn't communicate. that is a problem. >> should he be -- should he be fired or resign? is this a sufficient offense? obviously, as you say, at least a mistake, that he should leave? >> it is a violation of procedures. it is in character for the way he ran the pentagon. this should have been addressed in terms of his broad communications long ago, before you got to this. i just can't imagine in an election year that he would be dumped now. i think it'd be more trouble than it is worth. >> he also has prostate cancer. the big question is exactly what went wrong. did he tell his chief of staff, and the chief of staff didn't

pass the word on? i mean, where was the breakdown? i don't think he -- there's no thought that he deliberately kept this secret. we don't know. there is now an investigation, but i think that is the big question. chief of staff said he was sick. >> the most amazing thing to me was he talked with biden on saturday in a one-on-one conversation, did not reveal the cancer diagnosis during that conversation. >> yeah. >> clearly, absence of communication here. i mean, the inspector general report that was just launched by the d.o.d. will answer these questions, but it is fascinating to think you'd not report that. >> it is a real problem. >> biden said he won't even accept a letter of resignation. >> fascinating. we're going to talk more about this, talk more about the attacks last night. when we come back, going to new york and talking about the judge who had a bomb threat, i think, against his house early in the morning, telling donald trump's attorney, "get your client in order." we'll be right back.

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this case has never been about politics or personal vendetta or about name calling. this case is about the facts and the law. mr. donald trump violated the law. at the end of the day, the point is simple, no matter how powerful you are, no matter how rich you are, that no one is above the law and that the law applies to all of us equally and fairly. >> new york attorney general letitia james yesterday. the penalty decision in former president donald trump's civil fraud case now is in the hands of the judge. the trial against trump, his two eldest sons, and the trump organization ended yesterday in a new york city courtroom after the state attorney general's office and trump's defense team both delivered closing arguments. the former president was allowed

to speak briefly during part of the presentation by his lawyers. the judge asked trump directly if he would, quote, promise to just comment on the facts and the law. naturally, trump ignored him, immediately launching into a five-minute rant that broke every one of the judge's rules, claiming he was an innocent man who has been politically prosecuted. the judge called for trump's attorney to control his client before cutting trump off for a scheduled lunch break. the state ag is seeking $370 million in fines and to bar trump from new york real estate industry. the judge said he hopes to have a decision by january 31st, so in a few weeks. he is deciding the case because state law does not allow for juries in this type of lawsuit. joining us now, former litigator and msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin. she was inside the courtroom yesterday. lisa, you were there. you saw and heard this exchange. we should go back a little bit.

judge engoron made this offer. he said, "you can speak on your own behalf in a closing argument if you follow all these rules." that was ignored. >> yup. >> then the offer was put back on the table in the courtroom yesterday. >> well, the offer was not put on the table affirmatively by judge engoron, it was chris kise, trump lawyer, who renewed the request. you'll remember that the trump lawyers ignored the last offer by judge engoron, who said essentially, having failed to meet my third extended deadline, i'll take that as a no. nonetheless, they renewed the request, and that's when judge engoron asked if former president trump could comply by two conditions. can you stick to the facts and the law? as you noted, former president trump immediately began to speak in the guise of answering the question, basically saying, "i couldn't accept your conditions and here's why." then proceeded to deliver exactly the speech he would have wanted to, just at twice the pace and a different cadence

than we're used to from former president trump, as if he expected to be cut off at any moment. >> while he is talking and doing everything the judge told him not to do, what is the reaction from the bench? is he trying to stop him and say, "we'd agreed you'd talk about the facts," or did he let him go? >> he let him go. it is a different engoron than we've seen from earlier portions of the trial. it is an engoron tamed. one of the things i'm wondering is to what effect were all of the cumulative threats against judge engoron and his law clerk? we know the threats against the law clerk alone filled 275 single-spaced pages. we know that because a court security officer filed an affidavit, explaining that in defense of the gag order. judge engoron yesterday had a bomb threat against him at his home in nassau county. then i wonder to what extent that really impacts his decision-making in allowing trump to continue speaking, until he just said to chris kise, "mr. kise, please control your client," when trump

continued and then he cut him off. he let him go for a while, and the attorney general's office didn't object either. >> the judge suggested he'd make a decision by january 31st. >> yup. >> this trump rant yesterday, what role, if any, could it play in weighing in on what the judge decides? i heard other lawyers suggest that, in a way, by letting trump speak, this defangs a possible appeal opportunity for trump? >> there are a number of instances along the way that could have led to further arguments on appeal, right, by former president trump, that he wasn't given an opportunity to present evidence. there are arguments about hiss experts. this is another argument he could have made. i want to point out to you and our viewers how unusual it is for a party with a competent team of lawyers to get up in their own defense during a closing argument, particularly when they skip an opportunity to testimony. closing arguments are not supposed to be testimony. to the extent that former president trump yesterday said

things that are against his interest, it'll be interesting to see if they come up in the decision. one of the things he said was that he's paid over $300 million in taxes over the period of time at issue in the case. he also said that the only problem in his financial statements had to do with the overvaluation of the triplex. that was the sole error, and it could come up. he denies the facts of the case and insists he is blameless. that is a factor the attorney general's office said the judge could properly consider when he's awarding the remedies here. >> so there's the theatrics of this case. we saw more of it yesterday. then there is the substance. you've been in the courtroom and paying very close attention. what is your sense of how the judge may rule here? could donald trump be prevented from practicing real estate in the state of new york? could he lose all that money? >> i think the loss of the money is something different. i don't think they'll actually confiscate the properties. do i think that he'll award some

discouragement remedy in the range of hundreds of millions of dollars? i do. i think for donald trump, though, as you noted, the worse outcome here is a bar, lifetime bar on participation in the new york city real estate industry. the other thing yesterday we saw was a vociferous defense of donald trump jr. and eric trump. mark yesterday in your calendars as the day the two adult sons stopped being children. both sides insisted the boys not be infantalized. they've been leading the company as co-ceos, and their lawyer said, if you bar them from being officers or directors for a series of five years, there are thousands of trump organization employees who are depending on eric and don jr. to capably lead this organization. you're not seeing a defense of them that is sort of saying, oh, these guys don't have anything to do with the organization. yes, they're saying, we don't know anything about the accounting, but they're also saying in the same breath, these are the two leaders of this

organization on into the future. the attorney general twisted that and said, look, they are themselves telling you these guys are at the helm of the organization. they're not boys anymore. they're not the children. these are grown men in their 40s. they should be treated as grown men who are responsible for their actions and decisions. >> it's always been one of the strangest parts of this story. the two guys are deep into middle age at this point, and donald trump says, "stay away from my children." another trial, donald trump said yesterday he might show up at the latest e. jean carroll defamation trial. what does that look like, and do you think we'll see him there? >> i'm not sure if we'll see him there. he certainly didn't show up to the first one. i was at that trial day in and day out. i'll be there again on tuesday. if he shows up, i'll be in touch with you and our viewers. federal court presents a different set of barriers for donald trump. cameras are not allowed not only in the courtroom but in the courthouse itself. he cannot walk out of the

courtroom to cameras as he did day in and day out when he showed up at this civil fraud trial. his ability to conduct the sort of political communication campaign that he's done in this trial won't be replicated there. i'll be interested to see if he comes to stare down the judge, stare down e. jean carroll, who is expected to be the first witness in the trial. if i were a betting person, i wouldn't put the odds of him showing up over 50% right now. >> we'll be watching and you'll be there. former litigator and legal analyst explaining it so well for us, lisa, good to see you. thanks so much. >> thank you. >> joe? >> look at the timing of all of this. he's got e. jean carroll trial coming. he's got this judgment coming before the end of the month. he's got new hampshire on the 23rd. we don't know exactly how iowa is going to go. that should go well for him, but there is a new poll that shows nikki haley jumping over ron desantis. again, things strangely tighten up at the end. he could be facing, sam, a pretty tough month post new

hampshire if what a lot of new hampshire experts, political experts, if they're right about what they think is going to happen on the ground. nikki haley is going to continue her momentum, possibly beat donald trump. we've seen donald trump melt down after he lost to ted cruz, after he lost, of course, to joe biden. that's a month of melting down. you have a decision by this judge that could bankrupt him. we don't know how much money he has. it could put him out of business in new york. you'll have a month of spiraling before the south carolina primary. i'm telling you, for people that say it's over, i understand. it's -- but i think there is an outside shot. maybe it is 10%, maybe 15%, that things continue breaking against donald trump. march doesn't get any easier for him with judge chutkan. >> right. >> very good chance of him being convicted by the end of the month. a lot coming at him.

>> right. i agree with you that people tend to think this is a foregone conclusion, and that's not really the case. i will say, let's say calamity happens in new hampshire and nikki haley consolidates everything, ekes out a win, and trump now is looking at all these civil trials and also an uncertain political future. the benefit that he has politically -- i can't speak legal stuff -- but the benefit politically is this, unlike in the past cycles, he actually has a semi-sophisticated campaign operation this go-around. they've been working delegates and state parties. >> right. >> south carolina, yeah, nikki haley has roots there, but he is well-positioned in the state. nevada, he's going to just romp. the party is controlled by him at this juncture, and she's not even on the ballot there. which isn't to say that things aren't going to get weird and tight and tricky for him, because i think the combination of the legal stuff, the political stuff, the piercing of this idea that he is a behemoth,

which could happen in iowa, certainly new hampshire, those are tricky things to navigate. i do think that he, you know -- the stuff where he is going to these trials, he's showing up there because it obviously works for him in the course of a primary campaign. we're talking about him. he goes in front of microphones. but that's not going to be the same as we start moving away from these primary elections. when he had to speak to a different audience, again, it gets trickier. you're underscoring that here. >> you know, he's avoided all of his debates so far. >> completely. >> he goes and gives speeches, says really crazy, nutty things. he still thinks he is running against barack obama. he is still woried about the onset of world war ii. he says weird things again and again. >> negotiating the civil war. >> yeah. >> he could have negotiated an end to the war, yeah. >> does he have to -- >> he could beat lincoln by 30%. >> or we might not have heard about lincoln if there had been

negotiations about the civil war. if it is a true two-person race between him and nikki haley, does he have to debate, or can he continue to just -- >> i don't think he has to debate, but if it is one-on-one, it gets so much harder. i think at some point, some republicans are going to -- if they can make -- if nikki haley could make the argument, this guy wants to go and lose another election for us republicans. he won't even debate. he's getting old. he's saying really strange things when he is in front of audiences. >> that's more direct than she's been, though, in the criticism of him. >> also, do you want a candidate convicted of -- >> right. >> the polls keep showing that if he is convicted, that he will lose -- biden will win. i keep saying that if he is convicted by a d.c. jury, he's going to say it was, you know, a fake jury, a democratic jury. >> right. >> but it is consistently showing that. there was a focus group we had,

the "times" opinion page had recently, where half the republicans who were talking said that, look, a conviction is what changes things for me. we don't want a criminal in the oval office. we shall see. >> we'll see. >> exactly. >> and he keeps saying things that work to his detriment. i mean, the biden campaign actually -- biden campaign sort of smirks at the democrats that are whining. they really know, and i think they're right, yes, they have to talk about what joe biden has done for america. but, also, they have to run donald trump's clips. >> yeah. >> it's what they have to do. donald trump saying, "i'm the one who terminated roe v. wade." the other night in just a powder puff debate, interview on fox news, even there, he blew it. he once again said, "nobody could terminate roe v. wade.

they tried for 50 years. i was the one who terminated roe v. wade." the biden campaign immediately was like, cut, paste, it's up online. it is going to hurt him. that is going to be running with everybody else that runs between now and november. it is going to have an impact. even here, donald trump asked yesterday about the immunity argument made by his attorneys early in the week in the federal court regarding the january 6th election interference case, about how donald trump could order s.e.a.l. team six to execute a political rival like nikki haley or ron desantis. this is what he said. >> do you agree with your lawyers, what they said on tuesday, that you should not be pros kutsed or could not be pros kutsed if you ordered s.e.a.l. team six to kill a political opponent. >> if the president of the united states doesn't have immunity, he'll be totally

ineffective. he won't be able to do anything. it'll mean he will be prosecuted, strongly prosecuted, perhaps, as soon as he leaves office by his -- by the opposing party. a president to the united states, i'm not talking just me, i'm talking any president has to have immunity. >> david ignatius, he's not saying that only donald trump should be able to use s.e.a.l. team six to order the execution of nikki ali. haley. every president should have the power to use s.e.a.l. team six to order the execution of their political opponent and have immunity from it. again, think about the -- you know, it is easy for us to smirk at this, but, again, this is a guy in the past week who has made that argument, who has argued that lincoln should have negotiated with the south to keep slavery, and just ten other completely -- >> that's why he's -- >> also made the argument that the economy -- he was hoping the

economy would crash. he was hoping the senior citizens would lose their 401(k)s. he was hoping that joblessness would skyrocket and we'd be in a great depression again because it'd help him get elected president of the united states. that was all said this past week. >> he's a man for whom the world really is a prop. it all is about him. he can't resist these moments in which he gets himself into trouble. i mean, that's why i think heading forward in the campaign through the spring and summer, he's so accident prone. every week there will be a confrontation. he'll be in litigation pretty much constantly now through the progress of the campaign. we've seen, he can't resist saying things that make his problems deeper for independent voters. i'll say that. >> right. >> democrats already can't stand him, but there are a lot of people in this country who, i

think, as the more they watch, the more they just kind of scratch their heads and say, "this guy should not be our president." >> that's why team biden is not -- they're just not as concerned as everybody on the outside. >> how trump views the world, when he sees a problem, he makes it bigger. >> right. >> bringing in rumsfeld. >> he makes it bigger in ways that haven't rebounded against him, mostly in his role to the republican nomination which i still think is mostly likely. but it complicates his life once that is over and he is in a general election. that's what the biden people are waiting for. as you say, democrats are not going to vote for trump. but there is a big swath of america in the middle that aren't that happy with joe biden but haven't spent a lot of time looking at donald trump. >> exactly. >> in this election, they will be. >> he's been off the airwaves for most of the last year. i mean, now he's coming back and people are remembering what it was like. i mean, i think there was a lot

of people that forgot, you know, the four years. here he is back in our faces again. i think that is a big factor. >> yeah, may not matter to a lot of republican primary voters in iowa and some other states. it matters in the suburbs of atlanta, suburbs of charlotte, suburbs of philly, the suburbs of detroit, the suburbs of milwaukee, the suburbs of maricopa county in arizona, the very places where this election, willie, are going to be decided. >> that's right. it shows up in polls. the poll last week from "the washington post" showed how many americans bought donald trump's version of january 6th. yes, it showed people who support him believe the story, but when you looked at the country, the majority of americans don't believe it. they think january 6th was a terrible day and he had something to do with it. it is a primary strategy, not a general election one. >> let's underline the fact, also, that in the poll reshowed yesterday, showing joe biden

ahead in pennsylvania, you know, those polls are going to come and go. again, the clear trend line, that voters over 65 who i always assumed were going to be trump voters, voters over 65 have been moving more and more steady joe biden's way. it's pretty shocking, actually, if you look at one report out of the villages in florida. but it keeps moving and kees moving in joe biden's direction. a lot of that has to do with the fact these people don't get their news from tiktok. they don't get their news from instagram feeds. these are people that are actually worried about the rule of law, have some experience about the importance of the rule of law. remember the chaos of the late '60s and early '70s and are repelled by that. the same thing that moved democrats to the republican party in the late '60s and early '70s, that is what seems to be moving the 65 plus voters from

being republicans toward supporting joe biden this time. it's a real problem for him. people can say, hey, we own the libs. maybe so. but you're losing part of the voting block that votes the most on election day. >> yeah. it is a very narrow strategy. it deepens your support among them. that is a striking number. >> look at that. >> all the caveats but that is a 23-point lead with voters 65 and older in pennsylvania anyway. put all this together, jonathan lemire, how the biden campaign, as we turn the page to this new year with iowa a few days away, things get going in earnest, how they're feeling right now. they hear all the noise. they see the polls that send people into a panic every morning when they come out. but it seems to be the message from them, is this is a long road when it is the two of us standing, they believe it'll be joe biden and donald trump next to each other, people go into a booth, they'll say, in their view, "we're not going back to that. i may not think joe biden is perfect. i may think he is too old, but

i'm not going back to that." >> that is the number one argument. the president himself is fond of saying, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. when the alternative is donald trump, they like their chances. there's polling that suggests a lot of americans don't believe the final two will be biden and trump. it may not be until the spring or summer when americans start paying attention, because many simply are not paying attention. when they do, the biden camp believes even if they're lukewarm on the president, have reservations about his age, whatever it might be, they'll not want to go back to the chaos of donald trump. to pick up on elizabeth's point, because that's something the biden campaign says a lot, people simply haven't heard donald trump in a while. he's become background noise. his reach is so much smaller than it used to be. we can't overlook the fact of the downgrade from the audience he had on twitter to now truth social. no one hears that. those tweets don't break through. his campaign is more disciplined but he is not. the crazy doesn't break through

because it is confined. confined to the conservative news media space. when it starts breaking through to the wider public and americans start listening, the biden campaign believes his numbers will go down, and that's to their advantage. coming up, we'll get a live report from israel on two major stories out of the middle east this morning. the united states and allied strikes on houthi rebels, as we mentioned, as well as israel defending its war against hamas in an international court. plus, an update from iowa, now three days away from the caucuses where it appears the race for second place is getting a little closer. we'll discuss the significance of that ahead on "morning joe." when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief

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the united states and its allies launched strikes against the houthis in yemen. they struck more than 60 targets at 16 locations last night using more than 100 precision-guided munitions. iran now is condemning those strikes. joining us now from israel on the red sea is nbc news foreign correspondent josh lederman. what more can you tell us this morning? >> reporter: willie, this region is really on edge right now, bracing for potential retaliation from the houthis, which some type of retaliation does seem inevitable. the houthis are promising they are not going to let the attacks from the u.s. and uk last night go unresponded to. if they do retaliate, one likely target is right here in a lot on the gulf of israel's southern border, which has already been the repeated target of multiple houthi ballistic missiles as well as drones. there has been damage here over the last several months, although no deaths so far. but a big question coming out of

the strikes last night is really whether the houthis are going to be deterred or, instead, emboldened. unlike hezbollah in lebanon backed by iran, which made clear they don't want to get dragged into a full-scale war, the houthis, both publicly and if you look at their actions, have been itching for this fight. they have seen themselves at the forefront of really a regional battle against the influence of the united states, against the influence of israel. in a lot of ways, this has really elevated their profile. the largest and most powerful military in the world, the united states, now taking them very seriously, a coalition of western nations racing to try to stop them. so in many ways, the events over the last several weeks, including these strikes last night, have really put the houthis on the map in a way they have never been before, even at the height of yemen's civil war that started nearly a decade ago, willie. >> josh, stay where you are. we want to get your take and analysis on what is happening

right now with the war in gaza. first, let's bring in former cia officer marc polymeropoulos, former national security and intelligence analyst, and former chief of staff at the pentagon, jeremy bash. i think the united states, the uk, the allies saw as the last straw another attack this year on tuesday. on shipping through the red sea, the united states and british forces intercepted some missiles and some drones that were headed to the ships and decided it was time for this retaliation. what do you see happening from here? >> yeah, i think the biden administration, willie, made the right call because they figured if the houthis are armed with anti-ship ballistic missiles, and if one hits a u.s. naval vessel and sailors are killed, they go down to the bottom of the red sea, then we're at a full-blown war with iran. it is not a war of our choosing, although, i would say that, in my view, we are in a proxy war

with iran on three fronts. obviously, hamas unleashed the attack on israel in october, killed americans, took american hostages, and are continuing to hold six hostage. there have been 150 attacks against american service members' bases in iraq and syria. now, the 27 attacks against shipping in the red sea in defiance of american warning. i think we are in a proxy war against iran, and i think this is going to continue. >> marc, how important were these attacks last night? >> i think it is absolutely critical. we had to kind of regain this aura of deterrence, which, frankly, we were losing. you know, our enemies have to both respect and they have to fear us. i think it is absolutely critically important, not only for international shipping but also in, as jeremy just said, this proxy war that we're in with iran. look, you know, kudos to the intelligence community for the strikes yesterday in the sense of, you know, certainly, there was an all source intelligence soak. we've been flying isr intelligence surveillance

missions in iran for a decade. we have good fidelity on what happens in the country. we had a punishing campaign for a long time. in my view, they stepped up and provided the target, and now the houthi response. >> david, do your sources in the government agree, we needed to do this? >> yes, they've been really waiting, tugging at the leash for the last week or so as the houthi attacks continued. as i said earlier in the show, freedom of navigation is a red line for the united states. that is something we're committed to defending around the world. we take it very seriously. it was being challenged. shipping rates are going up. all the big ship carriers are moving away from the red sea. action was required. i think marc is right, that we put all the pieces of retaliation together strongly. the question is how we now see

this through. the houthis will retaliate. they said that this morning in their response. are we going to go tit for tat, and then are you in a space that's much harder to control? i mean, they took a big strike. this was going big. if the houthis come back hard, then we suddenly are in a different space that really will escalate. >> jeremy, i'm curious how much of a cat and mouse game iran really wants to play with the united states of america and its military might. i remember last year, soleimani, after we killed him -- or a couple years ago, after he was killed by a u.s. attack, the iranians responded but then they very quickly sent a message to an intermediary in the middle east saying, "let the united states know we had to respond. that's it. we're not going to do it again." here, i don't know, i'm not so sure, but i think iran understands they've gotten out over their skis.

do they really want to prompt us to start blowing up their energy infrastructure? do they really want us to start going after their nuclear infrastructure? they're not -- they can't stop us. they can't stop us. they know they can't stop us. how far do they push this cat and mouse game? >> they're playing a dangerous game. i think they're tiptoeing up to the line. they want to keep us off balance, but they seem deterred. for example, they've not fully unleashed hezbollah in lebanon, in southern lebanon against israel's north because, in fact, the u.s. moved two warships in the region and made a signal to the iranians, don't step over the line. with the shiite militias and proxies in iraq and syria, they've unleashed them. it is not a coincidence there were 150 attacks against american service members. not a coincidence there were 27 houthi attacks against shipping. not a coincidence october 7th happened. there is a broader regional context.

they didn't want to see israel-saudi normalization. to them, they are committed to stopping that. >> david, final thoughts on that? >> i just would caution that u.s.-israeli intelligence keep saying that the leash this iran has on these proxy groups is not as tight as you might think. they supply them weapons. they supply them intelligence. in terms of day-to-day command and control -- >> right. >> -- it is not clear that they're running the operations of hamas before october 7th, for example. >> that's the message we keep hearing. iran surprised by the extent of the attacks on october 7th. people roll their eyes, you know, iran surprised by some of these other attacks. you're right, they fund them, give them the weapons, but it's not like they're getting on the phone in tehran saying, "launch the missiles now." >> right. the firing of the missiles for the houthis, they wouldn't have them without iran, but it

doesn't mean iran wanted them to take it to a massive retaliation. >> jeremy, i understand you have another appointment. we'll let you run off set. israel is defending itself in a case brought by the united nations. u.s. is dismissing it being without mer it. it cites mass migration out of gaza of the palestinians. josh, tell us about it. >> reporter: unsurprunsurprisin israel says this is baseless. they're getting support from the u.s. in that. the south africans have based this case on the notion this isn't just about indiscriminate bombing by israel but a deliberate attempt, they say, by israel to try to wipe out palestinian identity. they are basing that on direct comments made by israeli ministers, one of whom suggested that a nuclear bomb should be dropped on gaza. another minister said israel has

to figure out what is worse than death and inflict that on the gazans. they're basing this case on israeli ministers who made controversial comments about what should happen to gaza after the war. >> free palestine. >> bring them home. >> reporter: on the eve of a landmark case in court, netanyahu broke with his allies. >> i want to make a few points clear. israel has no intention of permanently occupying gaza. >> reporter: the palestinians aren't persuade, nor are far-right israeli cabinet members, calling for palestinians to leave permanently. some urging egypt and other countriestake olympi palestinia in. it means better security for israelis. it stirs up memories of the catastrophe where some 700,000

palestinians driven from their homes in israel's founding in 1948. now, fears it is happening again. already, nearly 2 million palestinians have been displaced within gaza, the u.s. says, as israel works to free hostages and destroy hamas after the october 7th terror attacks. >> because we realize when you have more than 2 million people in a tiny area, it's not sustainable. >> reporter: top lawmakers whom netanyahu's party are saying gazans will have a better life somewhere else. >> i don't see what the problem would be with that. >> reporter: the finance minister even saying israel should build new jewish settlements in gaza, where israel withdrew in 2005. to many israelis, it is not a fringe idea. a hebrew university poll last month found one in three israeli adults support annexing and resettling gaza. under the geneva conventions, forced displacement is illegal. the biden administration has

rebuked israeli ministers calling for gazans to leave. >> palestinian civilians must be able to return home as soon as conditions allow. they cannot, they must not be pressed to leave gaza. >> reporter: but palestinian rights advocates say israel plans to leave gazans with no other choice. do you fear the destruction of so many homes in gaza is part of a strategy to leave gazans with nothing to go back to? >> absolutely. in fact, it's been referred to as domicide, the destruction of the homes to make it uninhabitable. >> reporter: 60% of homes in gaza have been damaged or destroyed. if this war ended tomorrow, could gazans go back home? >> no, there is a lot of work that needs to be done before people can go home. all of the rubble would need to be cleared with so much destruction, and that includes,

sadly, the estimate at the moment, which is small, is there are 7,000 people buried under the rubble. >> reporter: in the gaza strip, palestinians insisting they'll not be pushed out of their land. >> people will stay here and rebuild gaza. >> reporter: nora is 22, an english teacher in gaza. the war has already forced her to relocate within gaza three times. >> the israeli army will not force us to evacuate from gaza, and we will not leave at any cost. >> reporter: today, the second day of the case in the hague is israel's first chance to defend itself before that court. unlike past cases at this court where israel simply boycotted the proceedings or basically ignored it, israel is taking this very seriously. they are sending some of their top lawyers to the hague to defend israel. they clearly do not want to see any order from this court for israel to halt its ongoing war in the gaza strip. they say that would leave israel defenseless. joe. >> nbc's josh lederman, thank

you so much for that. the great irony here is that these extremists in the cabinet whose words are going to be used against israel, these extremists in the cabinet are people who are loathed by the leaders of idf, people who are loathed by leaders of the mossad, people who are loathed by the biden administration, people who are loathed by those who really want the security of israel, first and foremost, to be the most important thing. it is -- we are starting to see, i think, an unraveling of this post-war myth that the united states is going to just stand blindly by and wait for the israeli people to move. benjamin netanyahu a guy with a 15% approval rating. you have internally in the country, the idf, you have

mossad. back here, you have the biden administration saying, "enough of netanyahu. enough of these extremists. enough of what they're doing in the west bank. they're making all of our jobs more difficult by netanyahu's continued radical, reckless policies, of sending crazy settlers, extremist settlers into the west bank." by the way, that's not me, a guy in washington, d.c., a guy in a studio, that is the idf. that is mossad. they are the ones really angry at netanyahu making their jobs harder. >> joe, that was my biggest takeaway from a trip to israel in december, was that the security establishment is absolutely fed up with the settlers deliberately provoking violence with the palestinian villages in the west bank. israel needs to keep the palestinian population from exploding in a way hamas has dreamed. they thought they'd start an uprising in israel itself and in

the west bank. it hasn't happened. the settlers keep, you know, throwing gasoline on the fire. it infuriates the military leadership. i think what we're heading toward, maybe, is a break between people who say the state of israel's interests are crucial and settlers who say, the state of our project in jrue judea and samaria is crucial. we now have a ban on visas for violent settlers coming into the united states as a way of saying, we have an interest in this. we're going to help the idf and others maintain order. >> what can the united states do, though, to encourage the forces that we think are helpful in israel and act against those that we think are not serving the long-term interest of israel or ourselves or the region?

>> well, one thing is what i just mentioned. so if we have evidence, and israeli human rights groups, i must say, do an incredible job of tracking incidents involving violent settlers, if we have videos, evidence, other documentary evidence, there will now be a process at the state department where people who can be identified will not be allowed to travel to the united states, nor will their families. there are things you could do beyond that. >> what about u.s. aid? could you do something, or is that too sensitive a topic? >> i don't think that can be too sensitive a topic. i just don't think it can anymore. we have got to separate aid for israel, which we will always provide and support, which we will always provide, and aid for benjamin netanyahu to continue his campaign, whatever it is, to stay out of jail. i mean, that's what i think is continuing. i think that's -- we're coming to that split in the road at

this point. the biden administration has just had enough. they're doing everything they can. they're spending u.s. money. we're supporting them any way we can, and chaos is still breaking out in the west bank. why? not for security reasons but because it helps benjamin netanyahu politically. you know, his approval rating is down in the low 30s. only 15% of them want to stay on after the war. joe biden's arrival rating is in the 80s. they have billboards of biden all over israel. this is a great opportunity for joe biden to say, "we support israel's right to exist. we will always support israel's right to exist." joe biden has said in the past, "i'm a zionist." he can go, and he has the authority to say the things that other u.s. presidents haven't had the authority to say. one of them is, "your future is not with benjamin netanyahu. america's future is not with benjamin netanyahu. this has to stop." again, going back to what david wrote on the second or third day of the war, we have to look over

the horizon. what is the day look like the day after the war ends? i know right now, and i completely understand, marc, that israelis don't want to talk about a two-state solution. i completely understand that. don't talk to us about making peace two months after 9/11, right? at the same time, we still have to conduct ourselves that way. that's what is going to happen. so we need -- if we're going to keep funding israel billions and billions of dollars every year, we need a partner over there. a partner who is not going to make their job harder. a partner who is not going to fund hamas, not going to tell qatar, "fund hamas," not going to find out hamas has billions of dollars they're hiding across the world and say, "oh, we'll let them continue to hide that money."

not going to ignore warning after warning after warning after warning. i mean, netanyahu has made israel less safe. we need a partner who will make israel more secure. >> joe, i think you're exactly right. you know who wants to have these discussions about the day after in gaza? it is the idf. you know, it is mossad, shinbet. they want to see the tax remittences go back to the palestinians because they understand the damage this has done. i think, ultimately, you know, we shouldn't be surprised we're at this point. the beginning of the war, there was the hug from the biden administration. that was the correct move. even some of the issues we've had with, you know, lack of aid getting in or kind of the high-intensity campaign, these are issues that the u.s. and israel behind the scenes have worked on. now, we're almost at a task, and i think about secretary of state blinken, how do you get benjamin netanyahu to talk about the day after where he and his government will fall if they do this? i think the blinken trip, the

ten-spot move in the middle east was right. he has been criticizing the israeli government for some of these moves, but, ultimately, this gets resolved, in my view, with new israeli elections. until then, we'll have a really tough time in pressing israel to take steps for the day after. the israeli establishment knows they need to do it right now. >> former cia officer marc polymeropoulos. long-suffering red sox fan, marc. >> where is our pitching? >> we're not going to get any. >> still going to opening day, joe. >> we're still going to watch. still going to struggle. >> i got my tickets. >> all right. i'll see ya there. in a few minutes, we'll be joined by pentagon press secretary major general patrick ryder. willie, what do we got going on in the us of a? >> three days until the iowa caucuses. people are going to vote, believe it or not. a new poll puts former u.n.

ambassador nikki haley in second for the first time in iowa. the suffolk university survey, trump leads the race with 54% of support from likely caucus-goers. second place, 34 points back is nikki haley at 20%. she is followed by florida governor ron desantis, focusing most of his campaign in iowa. he's 13%, 41 points behind donald trump. the bulk of the poll was conducted before chris christie left the race on wednesday, though he hasn't played in iowa. not much of an impact there. vivek ramaswamy, they're in single digit support in the latest survey. let's bring in nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann, who is in iowa for us this morning. what's going on on the ground three days out? well, first of all, notably absent here in iowa, you, willie. >> i know. >> joe, mika, none of you guys are here.

i'm worried about it. then i got here and they said, there is a blizzard coming. a foot of snow in the next 24 hours. the national weather service said, life-threatening winter weather conditions in des moines tomorrow. i thought, i know why those guys aren't here now. >> yeah, i think on caucus night, correct me, john, with the wind chill, it'll be negative 20 or something like that. tough night to go out and be with your neighbors to talk politics. >> that is what they're forecasting. i've got to say, i'm looking forward to it. happy to be here, putting my life on the line for "morning joe." >> there ya go. all right. what is the vibe on the ground? is it a trump runaway? we talk about the race for second place? what is it looking like right now? >> we're talking about the race for second place, willie, 100%. basically since labor day, trump nudged above 50% in most polling since labor day and has stayed

there consistently all throughout the fall. he continues to be at 54%. no one doubts donald trump will win this race. i would say in iowa, the weather is going to help him in some sense. you know, i'm not sure how many iowans are going to brave negative 26 wind chills for ron desantis. i'm pretty sure the hardest core believers in the republican party are donald trump's people. they'll show up on monday. this race for second place between desantis and haley, haley surging in new hampshire. if you believe the suffolk poll, and we'll know more over the weekend when we find out about the -- when we get the big iowa poll, the poll that nbc news and -- what's going on here. but there is a sense that haley is not just surging in new hampshire but is potentially picking up speed here in iowa. if that turns out to be -- if the polling right now turns out to be right, nikki haley kind of comes from out of nowhere over the course of the last few months and takes second place

probably spells the end of ron desantis's campaign and gives her -- look, trump is still going to win by 30 points probably, but it gives her some kind of momentum as the clear trump alternative going into new hampshire, where some think she might be able to beat him. >> yeah. you know, john, we've done enough of these to understand that there are wild swings in the final week. of course, in new hampshire, you had george w. bush getting absolutely crushed by john mccain. absolutely stunned the political world. that was in 2000. 2008, it was hillary. everybody, we were all saying good-bye to hillary clinton, then she shocked barack obama. that happens in new hampshire. i also remember it happening in iowa. when i start seeing 54 to 20, i don't see a 34-point race. it is the same thing when i was in politics, i never looked at the numbers. i looked at the trend lines and saw where things were breaking.

>> right. >> when i see nikki haley jumping up to 20 out of nowhere, when everybody says she has no ground support, she has nothing going for her there, and i see trump at 54, this is a race that could end up much closer. this is a race that could end up 40/30. i mean, we've all been shocked night after night in iowa. what are you hearing on the ground there? >> well, it's not impossible, joe. look, usually what happens in iowa is you get someone who gets a late surge. it usually is not quite this close to caucus day, but you'll see over the course of a month or six weeks, someone, a rick santorum or a mike huckabee coming up, gaining ground rapidly in the closing month or so, couple months before the caucuses. haley has been later breaking than that. as you point out, you know, this is a state dominated by evangelical voters in the republican party. nikki haley is not tailor made for this electorate, but there

is also something you've seen in the polling here, which is there is a chunk, maybe it's a third of the iowa republicans who are just looking for someone other than donald trump. as it's become clearer and clearer that desantis is fading, chris christie now out of the race, vivek not in the race. the race is now in the i didn'ts eyes of a lot of republican voters, are you for trump or for who is left? nikki haley has done a good job in fall, but there is also a sense, whether you love her politics or not, she's the only one left in the republican party who has a chance of being the non-trump candidate. as that is dawning on people, it is possible you're right, what happens in iowa is, at the very end, all of the anti-trump vote coalesces around her. if that happens, as i said before, she will still end up losing by more than double digits to trump, but that'd be a big surprise. it'd be the big story out of the caucuses on monday night/tuesday

morning. you know how important the narrative is coming out of this race, how much that drives things into new hampshire and how beneficial that could be for her. >> well, really, the calendar breaks nikki haley's way. if you look at the gap between new hampshire and south carolina, if things go the way nikki haley believes they can go and go the way a lot of new hampshire experts are saying, that nikki haley could have a big win in new hampshire, donald trump has the loser sort of label around him for a month. we know that will not go well for him. john heilemann, thank you so much. we'll see you. now, monday, we want to see you outside in the 15 below. trust me, trust me, we've all been out there. with wind chill, it'll be at least minus 45. we want to see the jacket. we want to see the whole broadcast news thing like we sent you to the lucian islands.

>> like the alaskan serial killer case. i will be out there. i'd feel better if you'd send willie or maybe lemire out here to be with me. but if i need to, i will. >> it's you solo, baby. thanks so much. greatly appreciate it, john. joining us here, bbc's katty kay. alexi mccammond. the host of "morning editions" and "up first requests on npr. and jonathan lemire is still with us, as well. katty, you've spent a heck of a lot of time traveling around the country, going to iowa. i'm curious your thoughts when you start seeing this race actually getting a little bit more competitive. you're starting to see the rise of nikki haley. ron desantis was supposed to be a comfortable second there, now falling. vivek moving towards being an asterisk. what are you seeing in those numbers. >> the great thing about these races is that people vote, and as the white house likes to keep

saying, polls don't vote. once we have some people who have voted in iowa, then we've had some people who voted in new hampshire, we may get a better sense of whether nikki haley's rise is a flutter or whether it is serious and she could be a contender for donald trump. my sense is that iowa, which barack obama won, of course, in 2008, has become very much more conservative. the college educated voters from left the state. it's become much more trump country. you go to new hampshire, which likes to buck the trend from iowa, obviously has more independent voters. they may now go to nikki haley. she may pick up chris christie's voters, as well. she has to do a very good second. she has to come in quite close to donald trump to get any momentum, then going to south carolina where she's 30 points behind. >> right. >> look, if we had to put our -- pull all the massive resources we have from our piggybacks and

had to put it somewhere, we'd still put it on donald trump winning the nomination. >> i would hedge a little over here if nikki haley came in, you know -- if it was, like, 43 to 30 in iowa and she won outright in new hampshire. she has to win in new hampshire, and i think she can. >> second is not good enough anymore. she can't be second. you have to beat the guy that's king of the hill. if she beats him, and i think she can beat him badly, again, with history as its guide -- i mean, new hampshire doesn't do anything halfway, you know? again, we just see these massive swings at the end. if she gets it, the calendar actually gives her, i think, an outside chance. alexi, i'm curious your thoughts on donald trump and all the chaos that's going on around him right now. whether it is the courtroom decision that is going to be made in the middle of this process. chances are good he'll be liable for between $250 million to $300

million, money a lot of us don't think he has. he has appeals going out where his attorneys are saying he has the right to assassinate political opponents. says abraham lincoln screwed up the civil war. he should have negotiated with the south. on and on. wants the economy to wreck. wants people to lose their retirement savings. a lot for republicans who have lost seven elections in a row to sort of take in. i wonder what impact that will have, at least on a fairly large percentage of republicans as they go to vote in iowa and new hampshire. >> yeah. i mean, that's the interesting thing. both what donald trump's down ballot impacts will be for other republicans come 2024, but also which voters are paying attention to which version of donald trump he is putting forward. when he was doing the fox news town hall the other night, he was doing his attempt at disciplining himself and almost moderating, really coming out and saying, "oh, no, no, i won't

be a dictator. do not worry. that's not actually what i meant." >> right. >> it's given the biden campaign ammo to go after him. but his campaign is retribution, coming after you for his personal grievances. we know donald trump can't stay disciplined. the second he goes to the rallies that i'll be at at iowa, sure heilemann will be at in iowa, he'll be back to the trump we know who is saying all of these ridiculous things. that will help the biden campaign as they continue to draw this contrast, but i think it'll make voters sort of remember, this is what your choice is. you could have trump. you could have trump-like in desantis. or have a proper alternative like nikki haley who hasn't alienated the maga voters, though she has room to grow to attract more of them to her side. >> steve, the media has been criticized for obsessing on

donald trump, by being too tough on donald trump, by, well, calling a fascist a fascist, drawing parallels with previous fascist governments where the parallels fit really snugly. my criticism of the media is actually on the other sideallow every day. nikki haley said what she said about is civil war. what she didn't say about the civil war, it was written up about four or five times. people are still talking about it. >> yeah. >> donald trump says abraham lincoln screwed up. he could have beaten him in a landslide in an election, and lincoln should have negotiated away slavery. what do we hear? nothing. >> less news. >> it's less news about all of it. you're talking about how we need to cover donald trump. >> yeah. >> you say, we need to challenge others to prove what they say and to note when they fall short. to use language that people of differing views will find hard to deny.

some will deny it anyway but we can make it hard. be prepared to weather criticism, that is inevitable whatever we say. sounds like old journalism there. i think the difference is that you have donald trump and trumpists and the propaganda, the big lies they keep moving around. george orwell said fascists, pretty good at lying. pretty great at propaganda, when he was comparing them to marxists. it takes a special talent. talk about the importance of pinning people down. >> i think that's vital. i think that is old school journalism. some people say it calls for a new approach to journalism. it calls for a better approach to the standards we have. you talk about speaking falsely. you need to hear what a candidate says. you need to hear what donald trump says. i've interviewed donald trump. i'd interview him again if he'd say yes. whatever he has to say has to be presented in context. i think we have to try to focus

on things that are relevant as opposed to things that are not. >> let's do an exercise. >> sure. >> i'm dead serious. i'm donald trump. ask me a question about the 2020 election. >> first, great hair. >> thank you. >> hair has gotten better than i've seen in the past. >> you know, i thinned it out a little bit. i stopped with the orange hair spray. >> yeah. i guess i could ask some version of this question. how are you going to handle the chaos that comes along with your approach to governance and also with some of the policies that you've promised? the muslim ban, so-called, which caused so much chaos and had to go to the courts last time, you want to reinstate that and make it stronger, which, arguably, means making it unconstitutional. that's what happened last time. does the public that supports you, the slice of the public that supports you, do they get a policy that they like, or do they just get chaos? >> what they want is they want order. what you provide and what you left-wing media dupes provide

and what joe biden provides, that is chaos. you look at the chaos at the border. look at the thousands and thousands of people that are streaming over the border. joe biden is doing that because he knows those people are going to come in, he's going to put them in lines in swing states, they're going to vote for joe biden. what do you think? people aren't stupid. they understand, that's what that is all about. you know it, too. >> okay. stop here for a second. >> with joe biden -- >> since we're pretending to do an interview, stop here. >> your like -- how much money have you been paid off by the biden administration to ask that question? >> let's talk about -- >> how much? you drove in in a sports car, in a maserati. how can you afford that on npr values? >> nbc paid for it. >> are you going to -- >> this is well -- >> are you going to admit joe biden is letting those people flood in so they'll vote for him? >> let's talk about that. what i'm going to admit is joe biden, with all the policies that you, mr. trump, in this pretend exercise, with all the

policies you disfavor, joe biden seems to have figured out how to work the system to get his way, which is what you don't like about this. >> he's made money. >> you were frustrated because you couldn't work the system. >> -- the entire biden crime family, like jenny thomas said -- >> we won't be doing this interview live, by the way. we'll be recording this so we can put it in context and figure out what is going on. >> here's the problem. >> yeah. >> when these interviews start, he throws ten things at you, right? >> sure. >> so you come back, and you're trying to figure out the next follow-up question. my argument would be, and you go back to the cnn town hall meeting. i'll just say, he said, he called me weak. do i have to do it? i said, don't do it. he said, if i have to, what should i do? i said, ask one question, and this works for me when i was in debates with people.

did joe biden win the election? he goes off. you know he is going to go off. this is elvis '77. we know his act, right? follow up and say, but 63 federal courts said you lost this election. are they lying? he goes on and goes on. but the united states supreme court said, your supreme court said you lost the election. are they lying? you keep going. >> arguing they didn't really say that. we had a version -- he and i had a version of this in an interview until he hung up. >> your point is a great point, which is, you have to stay on it. you have to make him uncomfortable. you have to make everybody uncomfortable. this is a great point. you don't go on trying to prove 12 things. go in trying to prove one. go after the big lie. >> stay calm. i think what this exercise is, we should do it all the time. so many republican candidates get on tv and, frankly, the

anchors get flustered because they're throwing out all these things. vivek ramaswamy will talk and talk and talk and then start talking about history. you're like, wait a second, the question i asked you is about the 2020 election. >> get back to the question. >> you have to stay calm and know they're trolling you. it is like the tucker carlson r this question, yes or no? or the thing i come back to, okay, he says this person is lying. he doesn't believe this. what set of facts do you believe? what other things represented to you when you were president that you simply ignored and decided those were not the facts? because we only know a certain amount of them so far. >> there's one thing you say here, steve, to use language people of differing views find hard to deny. what do you mean by that? >> i mean that you think through the way that you express yourself with an idea to persuading someone who would not agree idealogically with the point, to at least the facts you are making. i don't need to use the most

extreme, flame out language about anybody. i want to think almost like a lawyer. if there are five points i can make about joe biden or five points i can make about donald trump or nikki haley, let me think about the one of those five that is irirrefutable. let's talk about the one that is absolutely provable, that someone would have to go pretty far to deny the reality of it. joe gave a good example in talking simply about the fact of scores of courts that upheld the 2020 election. you can say thousands of election officials from both political parties who upheld the election. it is good to take the extra few seconds to note that fact. rather than just say, you know, biden won, let's talk about why we know that and do that again and again. >> in those cases, you say, "mr. president, those were your judges. mr. president, that was your supreme court. you called it your supreme court." you're right, so you go back and keep hammering him. you talk about vivek and whomever, they're going to want to fly all over the place.

they'll want to give you 12 things. anything to get you to move on from that first question that they didn't want to answer. that's the thing, if you go into it saying, i'm not leaving this interview until this question is answered, it's going to be -- fireworks are going to explode, you know? i've been told to be quiet and pass this on to willie. willie, we had some news yesterday. >> i love the scene work. we're getting some good takes that we can use. >> it's a workshop thing, kind of like it. >> the actor studio. i like it. we have some important news to turn to. the military strikes launched yesterday by the united states and allies against the iranian-backed houthis in yemen hitting more than 60 targets in over a dozen locations. joining us now is pentagon press secretary major general patrick ryder. major ryder, thank you for being with us this morning. what more can you tell us about specific targets, what was struck, and why now, given the months of attacks from houthis on these shipping lanes,

container ships moving through the red sea? what was it about right now that prompted this response? >> sure. first of all, thanks very much for having me. what you saw last night was a multi-national effort with the united states and the united kingdom, with support from australia, bahrain, canada, and the netherlands, to conduct strikes against houthi targets that included missile storage facilities, coastal radar, uav storage facilities, all targets that were contributing to the ability of the houthis to conduct attacks against international commerce and mariners transiting the red sea and the gulf of aden. these strikes were very deliberate, very focused on degrading and disrupting the ability of the houthis to conduct these kinds of strikes in the future. in terms of how we got here, on november 19th, we started to see the houthis conducting these indiscriminate attacks against commercial vessels, putting mariners at risk. we've had 27 attacks since

mid-november. early january, 14 nations and the united states all issued a warning to the houthis that this type of illegal and reckless activity needed to stop or there would be consequences. last night, there were consequences. we're going to continue to monitor. initial indications are we had good effects. of course, we're prepared to take additional action should we need to, to prevent that he has -- these attacks from affecting the lives of those on the waterway and also the global economy. >> good morning, major. the houthis said the strikes killed five people. wondering if you had any ability to verify that. secondly, they've threatened a response, some sort of retaliation. is there anything the u.s. armed forces has seen along those lines so far? >> so, again, we continue to conduct an assessment in terms of the specific effects of those strikes last night. like i said, we do know, initial

indications are we had the intended effects we were looking to have. as far as any retaliation from the houthis, we haven't seen anything yet. of course, we're prepared to respond should we need to. it is important to highlight, no one wants to see any type of escalation or increase in conflict in the region, but it is also important that when you have the international community being regularly attacked indiscriminately by the houthi rebels, we need to take action. last night, we did that. >> we should point out, it is not just ships in the red sea. there are american troops who have been attacked in yemen. american troops have been attacked in iraq, as well. so there is this fear, major general, of a wider war, which is that perhaps this is what the houthis wanted. perhaps this is, in some ways, what iran wanted, to draw the united states into this. although, it seems unlikely iran wants a showdown with the american military at this point. do you worry about this war spreading far beyond the borders

of gaza, far beyond the borders of israel and across the middle east? >> it's a great question. it's something that we have been very focused on since the beginning of the israel-hamas conflict in october. as you know, we sent additional capabilities into the region to specifically provide a deterrent effect and to provide capabilities that would enable us to respond to a wide-range of contingencies. and so we do have concerns about a broadening escalation in the region, which is why, again, we've provided those capabilities there. but i think it is also very important to differentiate the conflict that is happening in gaza right now with what we're seeing in the red sea. the two, although there are increased tensions in the region, what we have in the red sea are houthi rebels, again, targeting indiscriminately the commercial vessels of many different nations, over 50 nations, transiting international waterways.

again, the international community had provided multiple warnings. last night, we took action. again, we're going to do everything we can to prevent the conflict in israel with hamas in gaza from broadening into a broader regional conflict. >> david ignatius, what they do have in common is iran, backing both hamas and the houthis. >> so they do. i want to ask general ryder a particular question that's on all of our minds. the pentagon announced that secretary of defense austin made the final approval for these strikes from his hospital bed at walter reed. i want to ask, first, how soon the secretary of defense will be back at the pentagon in his office, and whether you can share with us any early lessons learned for you personally or for the department of defense from the episode we've been through and the questions of notification about his illness. >> yeah, so first of all, the

secretary is recovering well. we don't have a date yet in terms of when he'll be released from the hospital. we'll keep folks updated. he's been actively engaged in overseeing and directing the strikes we saw last night. on tuesday, when the houthis were conducting their complex attack, he was participating in a meeting with the chairman and the centcom commander to monitor that activity. spoke with the president twice over the last 7 hours, as well as conducting multiple calls each day with the centcom commander, the chairman, as well as the national security adviser. as you highlight, he gave the order yesterday afternoon to conduct these strikes. in terms of what we've learned, you know, the secretary has taken full responsibility on the need of the department to do better when it comes to transparency. we are committed to abiding by the d.o.d. principles of information, which is ensuring that the american public, that

the congress, and that the news media have timely and accurate information about the business and the operations of the department of defense. going forward, we are recommitted to that. we are confident that we will continue to work hard to earn the trust of the american people. >> general, what happened? this seems very elementary. a sec def is going to have a major operation. he notifies the president. that's just -- for all the time -- as long as i've been in washington, for as long as you've been in the pentagon, you know, that's a no-brainer. what happened here? >> well, again, the secretary issued a statement on saturday taking full responsibility, committed to doing better. as you've probably heard, we're conducting a review to look at the relevant facts, the timelines, and so i think a lot of that will enable us to look at where we can improve and what we need to do better moving forward. in addition, the department of defense inspector general is

also going to conduct a review to look at the notification timelines and processes, and so, of course, we welcome that. we look forward to seeing what we can do procedurally moving forward. it is important to highlight we have taken some immediate steps to ensure that when there is a transfer of authority, that the right people know as quickly as possible, and that it includes a reason why that transfer of authority is included. the last thing i'd say on that, it is important to understand, at no time through any of this was there any degradation in the command and control of the department of defense. at no time was there a national security risk. >> thank god for that. again, not to belbor the point, but it is a simple one. i don't know there needs to be a lot of in-depth studies. this is just a question, why didn't the sec def pick up the phone and say, "mr. president, unfortunately, i have prostate

cancer and i've got to have a surgery. i'll be out for a couple of days". >> look, again, the secretary has taken full responsibility. i think it's clear that, you know, in the statement we issued from his doctors, this is a deeply personal issue. you know, we provided a lot of details in terms of the procedure that he underwent after having complications. you know, look, the secretary of defense is an extremely hard working person, dedicated public servant. i've been working with him for a very long time and, you know, at the center of every day, he's focused on what he can do to help make sure that our country is safe. again, you know, i'm confident going forward that will remain his focus. but, you know, to your point, we've learned some lessons. we've committed to doing better in the future. >> all right. pentagon press secretary major general patrick ryder, thank you so much. greatly appreciate your time. >> thank you. >> katty, this is simple. again, this reminds me, again,

of when the general in afghanistan, i can't believe i've forgotten his name. >> mccrystal. >> when mccrystal talked trash about obama in a "rolling stone" interview, i remember reading it. i said, "wait a second, stop here, you can't have a general talking that way about the commander in chief. he has to leave." it's sort of the same way here. again, highly personal, that's great. we all have highly personal things. none of us are in the nuclear chain of command. again, i understand, he's going to survive, might survive. i don't understand how anybody survives when you put the commander in chief in the dark for quite some time, that you're having medical procedures and you're out of it. >> when you are a u.s. cabinet secretary, any cabinet secretary, and the key line was, this is a personal issue. there is nothing that can be

kept private like that. it is not a luxury you have in that position. in particular, when you are in the chain of command and the nuclear chain of command, it is more critical. there is a misunderstanding there of his ability to act, as if he had a right to keep things personal because he is a very private person. that's not an option. >> one thing general ryder said is likely correct, when he said there was not a national security risk because the secretary of defense is not necessarily in the direct chain of command. the president is the commander in chief. he's got his advisors. the chiefs of staff. there are field commanders around the world. but he is an important adviser to the president. anybody who is a boss wants to know when there is bad news. if you are a boss, tell your employees, give me the bad news up front. >> david? >> so i think everybody has had medical problems and everybody understands the desire to keep things personal, as katty said, he is in a different category

because he is secretary of defense. having watched general austin for this years, going back to when he was the centcom commander, this issue of sharing information with the public has always been a problem for him. there are people who just are phobic about sharing information, whether it's about troop movements, conduct of our forces in syria, or what he is doing in the hospital. they don't want to share information. >> right. >> that's been a problem for years. something like this, i've always thought, was bound to happen. whether this requires the president to decide he no longer has confidence in austin, that austin's violation is so serious that he has to be removed, you know, he'll face up that decision. i'm almost sure that he won't decide to fire lloyd austin. i'm not convinced that he should because i think the lesson has been learned. but this was a problem waiting to happen. >> all right. "the washington post"'s alexi

mccammond, npr's steve inskeep, thank you. appreciated our exercise. come back and let's do it again. >> next week? >> steve's book titled "differ we must, how lincoln succeeded in a divided america," available now. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest from capitol hill on the pressure campaign from the far right to get speaker mike johnson to back out after a deal to fund the government. after, a judge in a civil fraud trial telling trump's attorney, "control your client." before we go to break, willie, what do you have for "sunday today"? jack and i wait with baited breath. >> with that performance, it should be steve inskeep. a formidable presence on stage and screen. this week, we have to settle for a comedy icon. tina fey is my guest. our new conversation around the release this weekend of a new "mean girls" movie. had a great conversation with her.

where else? in the shadow of 30 rock, talking at her incredible rise from a young stage performer in chicago to the first woman to be head writer at "snl." "30 rock," "mean girls," all of us with tina rey on "sunday today." we'll be right back here on "morning joe." my mental health was much better. but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. #1-prescribed ingrezza is the only td treatment for adults that's always one pill, once daily. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide.

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♪♪ beautiful shot of washington, d.c., going into the weekend. after storms, we've had a lot of storms. >> don't like that. >> do we have any storms coming in this weekend? >> no. >> chicago, though, it is snowing all day. my daughter lives there. minus something. >> it's a blizzard in the midwest. my mom lives in nebraska, and it is crazy. >> getting hammered right now. >> yes. >> let's hope we have some sun here this weekend.

with us now, speaking of bringing sunshine to the weekend, co-host of the msnbc show "the weekend" that premieres tomorrow at 8:00 a.m., michael steele, alicia menendez and simone is here. what are we going to see? >> fireworks. you've never seen anything like this. the morning is where people start their day. you want that wake up and know what happened overnight, what is happening right now. we're going to bring people the news and information with faces, names and i recognize and trust, and give them the context they need to start a conversation that they will continue throughout their day. >> and have fun. i mean -- >> it'll be fun. >> he's already threatened to show up in their bathrobe. >> no one wants that. >> nothing wrong with that. >> i believe in pressing the moment. you know, i learned from the best. >> wear the robe. >> that's what i'm saying. no, it really is a conversation. the takeaway for me is, you know, we really want folks to

appreciate, this is not a recap of the news of the week. this is not, oh, this happened on tuesday, so let us tell you about it all over again. >> right. >> it really is about sort of scene setting for the weekend. you know, what is coming up? stuff happens on the weekend, too. events, weather, all kinds of things. we want to be in that moment with the viewers and have a conversation that, while they're having their cup of joe, you know, they're relaxed, trying to figure out what they're going to do, but they also want to hear what is going on around me. >> here on set? >> right here in d.c., which is nice. it'll be great. >> newspapers spread out all over the place. >> looking forward to that. >> i like that. >> pastries. newspapers, yeah, but i'm making the case for the pastries. >> we'll make sure you have pastries, mr. chairman. i think this is a consequential election season, and there's so much to unpack. you had a robust conversation about secretary austin and all of the news coming out of the

pentagon, separate from the secretary's health and the, you know, notification, chain of command, all these things happening. people want to understand that. you know, it is -- people want information. they want just enough to be conversational. also, they want to be informed. we want to make it fun. there are weighty, heavy topics. democracy is a conversation. democrats and republicans, independents, they're having it. everybody using different language now. serious topics but we'll have fun with it. we'll bring people the news. >> what a weekend to start, right, katty? iowa caucuses on monday. nikki haley moving. >> this is the year to launch a great show like this on the weekend, and this is the week to do it. monday coming up. you'll go to the next weekend with the result. i mean, how fun, guys. >> yeah. >> you'll be going to the next weekend with the results of iowa and throw ahead to new hampshire. >> set up new hampshire. >> great timing. >> do you have advice for us? >> definitely do the pastries.

>> i do, be yourself. >> amen. >> that's what we said at the beginning of the show. people would come on, and we say, "don't play tv." >> what are we doing? >> look at the papers. it's funny, i talk about what is interesting to me. if i talk about something that i think somebody else thinks is going to be interesting to them, it'll never work. what's so funny, i started talking about premier league soccer. i cannot tell you what my executive producer and tom brokaw and you go down the list, of people that said, this is the dumbest thing you've ever done. not alex, he says. but i loved it. roger bennett loved it. everybody loved it, yeah. >> notice this morning when you started with sports. >> yeah, started with sports. by the way, it is funny. the first year, we talked about the red sox and the yankees, so angry at the red sox. i went for nine, ten minutes. people went crazy, like phil

griffin, what are you doing? the world is coming to an end, and you're talking -- the next day, the ratings, because i was passionate about it. >> yeah. >> it's just -- it is a lot of bad news. you always have to -- yeah, we have this news, but i saw this about flip phones. i'm really interested in maybe doing a flip phone this year. what do you think? yeah, was that too much information? >> it was great. >> that's the bathrobe for me. >> yeah. >> because the bathrobe is a metaphor for what people are -- i mean, there are a lot of folks who are going to be in their and so that's -- that's the kind of bathrobe moment where, yeah. you've got an issue, a big issue that's in the country, but, you know, premier soccer league or flip phones, something else that kind of changes up the narrative. you can stress the envelope. >> if you are interested in it and you're passionate about it -- >> do it. >> -- everybody else is going to

be interested in it. as far as bathrobes go, i did not wear a bathrobe, but -- >> close. >> but you will remember when i literally wore the same ll bean $29 crew sweater, swear to got for five months straight. >> every day. >> and guess who cared? >> with breakfast on it. >> nobody. and there was breakfast on it too. i just felt like wearing it. i was pissed off about having to wake up early in cold weather and i was, like, i'm going to wear my sweater. i don't know if i do the bathrobe, but wear what you want to wear. >> katty's right, too. we could track your breakfast through the week. lucky charms over here. powdered doughnut over here. it was, like -- it was a real journey. i would -- >> definitely. >> for what you already have going for you is the three of you which is that you're smart -- >> you're great. >> you can do this whole thing,

and don't overthink it like joe says. you got a lot of meat like the far-right house freedom caucus putting pressure on speaker mike johnson to kill a bipartisan spending deal as congress has just seven days now to fund the government. a group of a stopgap funding bill to keep the house afloat as house republicans sort out their differences. schumer yesterday blasting the far-right republican actions during a speech on the senate floor. >> there are those on the hard

right over in the house who think they cann bully their colleagues in the house and the country into a shutdown. amazingly this band of hard right extremists actually say a shutdown would be a good thing. this shows you that the hard right is not serious about governing. the only tactic in their playbook is to try to bully the rest of congress and the country to bend to their extremist views. so it takes compromise to get anythingco done in these conditions of divided government. the top line agreement we reached last week has born that out. >> i think there's a lot of tapdancing going l on right now. i think a deal's going to get done. >>oi of course, but can i tell u that reuters front page or poll where they say, senate dems say, don't worry. we're going to have a stopgap in place while republicans pick per. in a normal environment, you would think that was just absolutely a win for democrats. >> right. >> it was a huge political

consequence for republicans. i often worry in this environment that what the far-right part of the republican party in congress has done is create a permission structure for someone like donald trump where they're saying, this is all chaos. we've created chaos. this is a chaotic environment which means there is less danger then if you are someone that does not believe that government can be an agentot for good and injecting more chaos. in some ways to me, it sets the stage for donald trump. >> it does, but donald trump set the stage years ago. so he's just having opportunities for others november the pieces for him. he doesn't have to do it directly anymore. >> right. >> he's gotav mike johnson now o find himself in a mccarthy-esque moment where he realizes i have to negotiate a deal. i've got people in this corner who are asking him for stuff that's not going to get done at all. there's no will among republicans in the senate to evenil bring it up.

so why am i going to go through this? he gets the deal, $1.6 trillion deal, cuts, and now all of a sudden, that right wing that we know -- >> right. >> some of whom, you know, you may have served with at one tima or another -- >> yeah. >> they're sitting there whispering in the dark saying, no. >> i tell you what's going to at happen. i think they're going to get rolledin again. >> they will. >> the far-right will get rolled and you'll have biden who's once again going to have another bipartisan deal on the border, on israel, and on ukraine because at the end of the day, ukraine is in a critical position. people like mike mccaul know, if we don'tcc act, putin moves. >> that's it. >> you>> already have some of o international partners sending additional aid. ukdi sent additional fighter je to ukraine just yesterday. i think when it comes to house republicans though, this, to me, is very illuminating because mike johnson is finding out that

in this particular congress, with this house, with these republicans, it really doesn't matter who the speaker is because they're not treating him any better than they treated speaker mccarthy and it puts mike johnson in a precarious position with the senate and frankly with the white house because he negotiated a w deal, comes back, and you can't guarantee your people are going to, vote for the deal, and so w why would we as the senate or the white house or whoever the we is in this scenario, why would we negotiate with you? we need to be talking with someone else because you do not have b control over your caucus >> right. >> and you know initially in mike johnson's tenure, when the first deal was negotiated that brought us to januaryhe 19th, first deadline, february 3rd, second deadline, folks were saying on the hill, even people who were very critical of mccarthy. well, you know, he's new. he just became a speaker. >> we got to give him some room. >> got to give him room. now it's january. how much longer is mike johnson going to be able to ride that wave of, you know, i'm really new wahere? >> the problem is, of course, whoever gets in there has to do

a deal.th >> yeah. i mean, that's what congress is about. >> it's government running. >> it's called governing. >> it's called governing so it's going to happenll again. >> how long do you think mike johnson lasts? >> i honestly don't know. i think -- again, they're learning that-- it could be anyone, and so -- >> yeah. >> -- they ousted mccarthy thinking they would get a better deal with, you know, speaker mike johnson who was one of the chief cheerleaders for insurrection, and they're getting the same thing they were getting with mccarthy, especially somebody with way less experience and fund-raising prowess. >> who would guess? >> never saw that coming. >> catch "the weekend," baby. it will change your life. if you are a man, it will reverse male pattern baldness. it will get rid of chicken weed in your backyard. it's going to help you with your backswing. it's going to do everything you need it toit do. it's saturday andu sunday mornings from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. right here on msnbc.

you all will be watched by mika and me every second. we can't wait. thank you so much. >> appreciate you guys. cominge up here, jim clybu will be our guest. i can't wait for uthat, and ase go to break, you're looking at pictures of wrigley field. a stop has been issued at both major airports due to snow and ice. there are reports of hundreds of flight cancellations as a major storm is expected to bring heavy snow and strong winds to the area. good luck, o'hare. we're back in two minutes. good . we're back in two minutes. i used to leak urine when i coughed, laughed or exercised. i couldn't even enjoy playing with my kids.

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give your business a head start in 2024 with this great offer. plus, ask how to get up to $1000 prepaid card with qualifying internet. we actually have some news, and it involves something that the biden administration is increasingly getting pressured

for, getting attacked for by people especially on the right for not responding to houthi rebels who continue to fire missiles into the red sea. last night the response. >> yeah, that actually is the top story above the fold here in the "new york times" that u.s. missiles hit houthi rebels' facilities in yemen. they launched strikes back at the houthis in yemen. they struck over 60 targets at 16 location last night using more than 100 precision-guided munitions. those targets include command and control nodes as well as condition depots, and air radar facilities. at least five people were killed. this was in response to more than two dozen attacks houthis have been launching at commercial ships in the red sea since november. earlier this week, the group launched its largest attack yet, directly targeting american ships, joe. so as you said, this was something that finally the united states and the uk together said, cannot stand.

you can't attack commercial ships through the red sea, and a strong response last night. >> right, and it was a response that they saw coming. >> yeah. >> we kept warning the rebels, and they kept firing at the ships. >> so the houthis clearly expected, almost wanted this attack. they launched a new wave of attacks on tuesday, i think 18 different missiles targeting shipping. since november, they have had more than two dozen attacks on shipping in the red sea, and finally, pow. the u.s. decided to go big in this strike. that's a lot of munitions. 100 precision munitions, 60 targets. so this is more than just sending a message. it's trying to re-establish deterrence which clearly has been failing when the houthis, this rebel group controlling yemen are essentially beginning to shut down shipping in one of the most important waterways in

the world. the united states and its partners have a problem. i'm told that the u.s. considers freedom of navigation in places like the red sea an absolute redline. that's what we're prepared to commit forcefully. we waited for weeks. finally, the response came. i think this is enormous in the white house, and this is part of a cycle that will now lead us into a new phase of the war that began in gaza, a wider phase. you'll have other iranian-backed militias like the houthis thinking, i have to show what i can do too. so you may see an increase in attacks from iranian militias in iraq, from hezbollah in lebanon, and all these dangers were factored in. in the end, joe, they figure and decided they had no choice. >> the goal was to have an effect, not just send a message, but actually keep them from -- deter them from these attacks and make it less possible they would do it with the wide range

that they hit, you know, drone bases. they hit missile sites. they hit radar sites. >> yes. >> it was a -- it was a concerted effort to stop this for now. >> checking the box that says military strike. this was more than that. this was a very targeted attempt to take out the capabilities that have been harassing shipping. >> right, and susan, over 2,000 strikes against shipping thus far. five countries have gotten involved in this. it wasn't just a u.s. operation, and it was, again, just -- it was five allies saying enough is enough. >> you know, rumsfield had a problem, can we can't solve it, can we make it bigger? we have a problem to solve between israel and hamas. can making this problem bigger be helpful or is this something that's bringing great concern and alarm do you think? >> so there's been concern about the wider war, but it's also

true that the u.s. and israel both believe that iran does not want to see a direct confrontation with either the united states or israel. so if you expand it to that confrontation, you begin to de-escalate it. none of the parties want it. in the short route, i think these individual proxies will continue to act. they'll want to show we're as tough as those houthis so you can get a spike up in violence, and the israelis for the moment feel calmer than they did a couple of weeks ago than they did about the northern border. >> i have been searching for years, susan, about the worst geopolitical advice, in american history, and i'm trying to provide it. would a problem make it bigger? >> this is one of rumsfeld's

favorite sayings. let's make this worse and see if it helps. that not often helps, but, you know. >> i wouldn't apply that geopolitically. make it bigger. speaking of bigger, obviously this draws in iran. there have been questions -- a lot of questions about iran and their hand in all of this from october 7th through the houthi attacks. obviously they fund them. how aggressive do they want to be to be, how aggressive they want hamas to be, and i'm going to say, in my contacts across the middle east and in the past two administrations, and some of those contacts very negative towards the biden administration who usually say, oh, they're too easy on iran, i keep hearing that the iranians were surprised by the extent of the attacks on october the 7th.

they wanted to tamp it down, and also that the iranians -- the last thing they want is a regional war. we're sitting here worried about a regional war, if we provoke too much. i'm hearing the iranians, that's the last thing they want right now. >> that message, joe, than heard by the sources, we have been pushing that line. we don't want a wider confrontation. the only thing that you have to remember is that israel was convinced before october 7th that hamas did not want a wider confrontation. they had totally bought into the idea that hamas really wanted, you know, to challenge us, yes, but they wanted a policy of coexistence, and they have been proven completely wrong. that's what haunts israel. they have the same analysis you do, that iran would be crazy to go to a larger war, but there's this haunting memory, and i think that's why everybody's a

little bit on that in the aftermath of the strike against the houthis. we just don't know what the response will be. we hope, we think that will be be fairly limited, but nobody can be sure. that's why the white house has been really agonizing over what they did yesterday. they have been thinking about it for weeks, wondering what the right package of targets was. it's been the best known secret in town. >> right. >> but here it is, and now we have to wait and see. >> that operation, and maybe you don't know the answer of this. lloyd austin, gone for three days, unexplained absence. in the hospital, clearly sidelined. did that affect the timing of this? there has been a lot of criticism of this. some factions say they shouldn't have done that without the authorization of congressmen. was the austin situation at all a factor in why it took this long? >> i don't think so, sam. i think the austin situation is

its own set of problems. what he did wasn't a capital crime, but clearly it was a mistake and he understands that. the discussions between the united states and britain about just what to do have been a continuance over the last two weeks. >> it's something he would approve, but he wouldn't be in the weeds on it. >> he was approing it from the hospital bed. >> sure, but he wasn't planning it from the hospital bed. >> he signed off on it from the hospital bed would be the right phrase. >> fair enough. >> i've just got to ask, how does the general -- how does the secretary survive this? >> well, i don't see him being fired. >> why not? >> because joe biden likes him and basically trusts him. >> would any other secretary of defense survive this? he went awol for three, four days. he's in the nuclear chain of

command. >> so the problem at the pentagon in terms of lack of communication didn't begin with the hospitalization of lloyd austin. it's been a continuous problem to this administration. he is not a communicator. he is a person who's really allergic to talking to media, and it's something that would happen. >> to this president, he's going to be -- >> as long as you had general mark milley as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, nobody worried about the pentagon not communicating, and that was not a problem. general milley was out there, but with the successors, and very reticent, and you have a top team that doesn't communicate, and that's a problem, but i don't see -- >> should he leave, be fired, or resign? is this a sufficient offense? obviously as you say, a mistake that he should leave?

>> it is a violation of procedures. it's in character for the way he ran the pentagon. this should have been addressed in terms of his broad communications long ago before it got to this. i just can't imagine in an election year that he would be dumped now. >> also he's got prostate cancer and i think -- i think too that the big question is exactly what went wrong. did he tell his chief of staff, and the chief of staff didn't pass the word on? i mean, where was the breakdown? i don't think he -- there's no thought that he deliberately kept this secret. we don't know. there's been now an investigation, but i think that's the big question. chief of staff said he was sick. >> the most amaing thing to me is he talked with biden on saturday and did not reveal the cancer diagnosis during that conversation. >> yeah. >> clearly the absence of communication here, and i'm the

inspector general part will answer these questions, but it's fascinating to think that you would not report something of that significance. >> it's a real problem. i can't imagine, and in most administrations -- >> he won't even accept a resignation. >> it's fascinating. we'll talk more about the attacks last night, but when we come back, going to new york and talking about the judge who had a bomb threat i think against this house early in the morning, telling donald trump's attorney, get your client in order. we'll be right back for that fun. order we'll be right back for that fun.

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this case has never been about politics or personal vendetta, or about name-calling. this case is about the facts and the law, and mr. donald trump violated the law. at the end of the day, the point is simple. no matter how powerful you are, no matter how rich you are, no

one is above the law, and that the law applies to all of us equally and fairly. >> new york attorney general lititia james yesterday. the civil fraud case is now in the hands of the judge. donald trump, his two eldest sons and the trump organization ended yesterday in a new york city courtroom after the state attorney general's office and trump's defense team both delivered closing arguments. the former president want allowed to speak briefly during part of the presentation by his lawyers. the judge asked trump directly if he would, quote, promise to just comment on the facts and the law, but naturally trump ignored him immediately launching into a five-minute rant that broke every one of the judge's rules claiming he was an innocent man who has been politically prosecuted. the judge called for trump's attorney to control his client before cutting trump off for a scheduled lunch break. the state ag is seeking

$370 million in fines and to bar trump from the new york real estate industry. the judge says he hopes to have a decision by january 31st, so in a few weeks. he's deciding the case because state law does not allow for juries in this type of lawsuit. joining us now for a litigator and msnbc legal analyst, lisa ruben, she was inside the courtroom yesterday. you saw and heard this exchange which -- so we should go back a little bit. the judge made this offer. >> yep. >> he said, you can speak on your own behalf in the closing argument if you follow all these rules. that was ignored. >> yep. >> then that offer was put back on the table in the courtroom yesterday? >> the offer was not put on the table affirmatively by the judge, but it was trump's lawyer who at the end of each of the presentations by the three trump lawyers renewed that request. you'll remember that the trump lawyers ignored the last offer by the judge who said essentially having failed to

meet my third extended deadline, i'll take that as a no. nonetheless, they renewed the request, and that's when the judge asked if former president trump could comply by just two conditions. can you stick to the facts and the law? and as you noted, former president trump immediately began to speak in the guise of answering the question, basically saying, i couldn't except your conditions and here's why, and proceeded to deliver exactly the speech he would have wanted to just at twice the pace, willie, and a different cadence than we're used to from donald trump as if he expected to be cut off at any moment. >> while he's talking, while he's doing everything the judge told him not to do, what's the reaction from the bench? is he trying to stop him and say, we agreed you would talk about the facts or just go? >> he let him go for a little bit, and, you know, it's a different angoran we've seen, and it's sort of the judge tamed, and one of the things i'm wondering is to what effect were all of the cumulative threats against the judge and his law

clerk. we know that the threat against the law clerk alone filled 275 single-spaced pages. we know that because a court security officer filed an affidavit explaining that in defense of the gag order. the judge had a bomb threat at his home in nassau county, and then i wonder to what extent that really impacts his decision-making in allowing trump to continue speaking until he just said to his lawyer, control your client. the attorney general's office didn't object either. >> the judge suggested he'd make a decision by the end of the month, january 31st. this rant, what role if any, do you think it will play? and i heard someone else say, by letting trump speak, this gets rid of possible appeal opportunities for trump if. >> there are a number of

instances along the way that could have led to appeals that donald trump wasn't given an opportunity to present evidence. there are arguments about his experts. this is another argument he could have made, john, but i want to point out to you and our viewers it is for a party who has a competent team of lawyers to then get up in their own defense during a closing argument particularly when they skip an opportunity to testify. closing arguments are not supposed to be testimony. so to the extent that former president trump yesterday said things that are against his interest, it will be interesting to see if they come up in the decision. one of the things he said was that he's paid over $300 million in taxes over the period of time at issue in the case. he also said that the only problem in his financial statements had to do with the overvaluation. that was the sole error. that's one thing that i think could come up in the decision because it shows just how he's been in denying the facts of the case and how he continues to

insist he's blameless. that's a factor that the attorney general's office said that the judge could properly consider when he's awarding the remedies here. >> so there are the theatrics of this case. we saw more of that yesterday, and then there's the substance. you have been in that courtroom. >> yep. >> you have been paying very close attention. what's your sense of how the judge may rule here? could donald trump be prevented from practicing real estate in the state of new york? could he lose all that money? >> i think the loss of the money is something different. i don't think they'll actually confiscate the properties. do i think that he'll award some disgorgement remedy in the range of hundreds of millions of dollars? i do. i think for donald trump though, as you noted, the worst outcome here is a bar -- a lifetime bar on the participation in the new york real estate industry. the other thing we saw yesterday was a vociferous defense of donald trump why are and eric trump. mark yesterday in your calendars as the day the two adult sons stopped being children, because

they insisted they not be infantilized. their lawyers said, if you bar them from being officers for directors for a series of even just five years, there are thousands of trump organization employees who are depending on eric and don jr. to capably lead this organization. you're not saying, they don't have anything to do with the organization. they're saying, we don't know anything about the accounting. in the same breath, these are the two leaders of this organization on into the future, and the attorney general sort of twisted that and said, look. they are themselves telling you these guys are at the helm of the organization. they're not boys anymore. they're not the children. these are grown men in their 40s. they should be treated as grown men who are responsible for their actions and decisions. >> it's always been one of the strangest parts of the story. these two guys are deep into middle age at this point and donald trump's saying, stay away from my children. stay away from my children. i'll ask you about another trial

in new york. donald trump said he might show up at the latest e. jean carroll defamation trial. what does that look like, and do you think we'll see him there? >> i'm not sure if we'll see him there. he didn't show up to the first one. i was at that trial day in and day out. i'll be there again on tuesday, and certainly if she shows up, i'll be in touch with you and our viewers. federal court presents a different set of barriers for donald trump. cameras are not allowed only in the courtroom, but in the courthouse itself. he cannot walk out of the courtroom to a phalanx of cameras day in and day out like he did at the civil fraud trial. his ability to conduct the campaign in this trial, won't be replicated there. i'll be interested to see if he comes to stare down the judge and e. jean carroll who's expected to be the first witness in this trial, but willie, if i were a betting person, i wouldn't put the odds of him showing up over 50% right now. >> thank you for explaining it

so well for us. thank you. good to see you. >> thank you. >> joe? >> you look at the timing of all of this. he's got the e. jean carroll trial coming, and this judgment coming before the end of the month. he's got new hampshire on the 23rd. we don't know exactly how iowa's going to go. that should go well for him. nikki haley jumping over ron desantis, and things strangely tying up at the end. he could be facing, sam, a pretty tough month post-new hampshire if what a lot of new hampshire experts -- if they're right about what they think will happen on the ground that nikki haley will continue her momentum, possibly beat donald trump. we've seen him melt down after he lost to ted cruz, after he lost, of course, to joe biden. that's a month of melting down. we have a decision by this judge that could bankrupt him. we don't know how much money he has. that could put him out of business in new york, and you're

going to have a month of spiraling before the south carolina primary. for people that say it's over, i understand, and it's -- but i think there's an outside shot. maybe it's 10%, maybe it's 15%, but things keep breaking against donald trump. march doesn't get any easier with him for judge chutkan. there's a good chance of him getting convicted by the end of the month. a lot coming at him. >> i agree with you that people tend to think this is a foregone conclusion, and that's not really the case. i will say -- let's say calamity happens for him in new hampshire. nikki haley consolidates everything, and he's looking at these civil trials and an uncertain political future. benefit he has politically -- i can't speak for the legal stuff, but the benefit he has politically is this. unlike in the past cycles, he actually has a semisophisticated

campaign operation this go around. they have been working delegates and working state parties. >> right. >> south carolina, yeah. nikki haley has some roots there, but he's pretty well positioned there. that party is controlled by him at this juncture and he's not even on the ballot in some states. that's not to say things won't get weird and tricky for him. the combination of the legal and political stuff, and the idea he's this behemoth and that could happen in iowa and new hampshire. those are tricky things to navigate. i think, you know, the stuff where he's going to these trials, he's showing up there because it obviously works for him in the course of a primary campaign. we're talking about him. that's not -- no. that's not going to be the same as we start moving away from these primaries. >> right. >> when he has to start speaking to a different audience, again, it gets trickier, and you're underscoring that here. >> and he's, you know, avoided

all of his debates so far. >> completely. >> he goes and he gives speeches, says really crazy, nutty things. he's talking about barack obama, and worried about the onset of world war ii, and says weird things. >> about negotiating the civil war. he could have negotiated an end to the war. yeah. >> does he have to -- >> he could have beat lincoln by 30%? >> we may not have heard of lincoln. if it's a true two-person race between he and nikki haley, does he have to debate or can he continue to just -- >> i don't think he has to debate, but if it's one-on-one, it gets so much harder, and i think at some point, some republicans are going to -- if they can make -- if nikki haley can make the argument, this guy wants to go and lose another election for us republicans. he won't even debate. he's getting old. he's saying really strange things when he's in front of

audiences. >> that's little more direct than she's been though in criticism, but also -- >> of him. >> do you want a candidate who's been convicted? >> polls keep showing that if he is convicted, he will lose -- biden will win. i don't -- i keep saying if he's convicted by a d.c. jury, he's going to say it was a, you know, fake jury. it was a democratic jury. >> right. >> but it's consistently showing that. >> yeah. >> there was a focus group we had. "the times" opinion page had where half the republicans who were talking said that, look. a conviction is what changes things for me. we don't want a criminal in the oval office. >> right. >> we shall see. >> i know. exactly. >> and he keeps saying things that work to his detriment. i mean, the biden campaign actually -- the biden campaign sort of smirks at the democrats that are whining.

they really know, and i think they're right, that yes, they have to talk about what joe biden's done for america, but also they have to run donald trump's clips. >> yeah. >> that's what they have to do. donald trump saying, i'm the one who terminated roe v. wade. the other night in just a powderpuff debate interview on fox news, even there he blew it and he once again said, nobody could terminate roe v. wade. they tried for 50 years. i was the one who terminated roe v. wade. the biden campaign immediately was, like, cut, paste, boop! it's up online, and it's going to hurt him, and that is going to be running with everything else that runs between now and november, and it's going to have an impact, and even here, donald trump asked yesterday about the immunity argument made by his attorneys earlier in the week, and the federal court regarding the january 6th election

interference case about how donald trump could order s.e.a.l. team six to execute a political rival like nikki haley or ron desantis. this is what he said. >> do you agree with your lawyers what they said on tuesday, that you should not be prosecuted or could not be prosecuted if you ordered s.e.a.l. team six to kill a political opponent? >> if a president of the united states does not have immunity, he'll be totally ineffective because he won't be able to do anything because it will mean he'll be prosecuted, strongly prosecuted perhaps as soon as he leaves office by his -- by the opposing party. so a president of the united states -- i'm not talking just me. i'm talking any president, has to have immunity. >> he's not saying that only donald trump should be able to use s.e.a.l. team six to order the execution of nikki haley. he's saying that every president should have the power to use

s.e.a.l. team six to order the execution of their political opponent, and have immunity from it. again, think about, you know, it's easy for us to sort of smirk at this, but again, this is a guy in the past week who's made that argument, who's argued that lincoln should have negotiated with the south to keep slavery, and just ten other -- just completely -- >> that's why he's -- >> also making the argument the economy -- he's hoping the economy would crash. he was hoping that senior citizens would lose their 401ks. he was hoping the joblessness would skyrocket and we would be in a great depression again because it would get him elected president of the united states. that was all said this past week. >> he is a man for whom the world really is a prop and it is about him, and he can't resist these moments in which he gets himself into trouble.

i mean, that's why i think heading forward in the campaign through the spring and summer, he is so accident-prone. every week there will be a confrontation. he's going to be in litigation pretty much constantly now through the progress of the campaign, and we've seen he can't resist saying things that make his problems deeper for independent voters. i'll just say that. >> right. >> democrats already can't stand him, but there are a lot of people in this country who i think as the more that i watch, the more they just kind of scratch their heads and say, this guy should not be our president. >> and that's why -- >> maintain the base. >> that's why team biden is not -- they're just not as concerned as everybody on the outside. >> it's how trump views the world. when he sees a problem, he makes it bigger. >> he makes it bigger in ways that have not rebounded against him mostly in his role to the

republican nomination which i think is mostly likely, but it complicates his life once that's over and he's in a general election and that's what the biden people are waiting for because as you say, democrats are not going to vote for trump, but there's a big swath of america in the middle that aren't that happy with joe biden, but haven't spent a lot of time looking at donald trump. >> exactly. >> in this election, they will be. >> he's been sort of off the air waves for most of the last year. i mean, now he's coming back and people are remembering what it was like. i think there was a lot of people who forgot, you know, those four years, and here he is back in our faces again. i think that -- i think that's a big factor. >> yeah. it may not matter to a lot of republican primary voters in iowa and some other states. it matters in the suburbs of atlanta, suburbs of charlotte, the suburbs of philly, the suburbs of detroit, the suburbs of milwaukee, the suburbs of maricopa county in arizona, the very places where this election, willie, are going to be decided.

coming up, new reporting from the middle east as the united states strikes targets inside yemen. what it means for the ongoing effort to counter the iranian-backed militants there. "morning joe" is back in a moment. militants there "morning joe" is back in a moment i'm an active mom, but when i laughed, lifted or exercised, bladder leaks were holding me back from doing the things i loved. until, i found a bladder specialist that offered me bulkamid - a life-changing and fda approved non-drug solution for my condition called stress incontinence it really works, and the relief can last for years. take the next step at findrealrelief.com to arrange an appointment with an expert physician to determine if bulkamid is right for you. results and experiences may vary. move beyond the leaks.

is united states and its allies launched military strikes against the iranian-backed houthis in yes, ma'am. officials say they struck more than 60 targets at 16 locations last night using precision-guided munitions. joining us now from israel on the red sea is nbc news foreign correspondent josh lederman. what more can you tell us this morning? >> reporter: well, willie, this region is really on edge right now, bracing for potential retaliation from the houthis, which some type of retaliation does seem inevitable. they are promising they're not

going to let the attacks from the u.s. and uk last night go unresponded to, and if they do retaliate, one unlikely target is on israel's southern border which has been the repeated target of multiple houthi ballistic missiles as well as drones. there has been damage here over the last several months, although no deaths so far, but the big question coming out of the strikes l.a. night is really whether the houthis are going to be deterred or instead emboldened because unlike hezbollah for example, in lebanon backed by iran which has made clear they don't really want to get dragged into a full-scale war, the houthis both publicly and if you look at their actions, have really been itching for this fight. they have seen themselves at the forefront of really a regional battle against the influence of the united states, against the influence of israel, and in a lot of ways this has really elevated their profile.

the largest and most powerful military in the world, united states, taking them very seriously. a coalition of western nations now racing to try to stop them, and so in many ways events over the last several weeks including these strikes last night have really put the houthis on the map in a way this they have never been before, even at the height of yemen's civil war that started nearly a decade ago, willie. coming up, we'll go live to iowa where the presidential candidates are making their final pitch ahead of monday's caucuses. that's just ahead on "morning joe." that's just ahead on "morning joe. help prevent covid-19 from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too.

[ cheers and applause ] that was mika and first lady dr. jill biden earlier this week and they welcomed a group of woman executives and their mentees to the east wing of the white house. here's part of their discussion for the discussion, know your

value event. >> when you were in your 20s, did you envision your career after the age of 50? >> no, not really because when i was in my 20s, i was at the university of delaware riding my 10-speed around campus, and it was the vietnam war. >> wow. >> bell bottoms. love beads. e.r.a. >> wow. >> no. i had no idea. >> and now look. i mean, the impact that you can have. you were at work this morning. >> i was at work this morning, yes. >> teaching. >> teaching. >> still. >> yes. >> and i love the fact that you have held onto your career. it's quite groundbreaking as a first lady of doing that. women in general have to confront stereotypes. i think they often -- society likes to put us in boxes. as first lady with such scrutiny every day, this must be a box on steroids that you feel like you are in. how have you broken the mold? >> i didn't intend to break the

mold, but i guess because i work, i have a paid job. >> right. >> so you have to remember -- i think if most americans think of first ladies and say, oh, what does the first lady do? they say, oh. she hosts state dinners and maybe has one initiative. >> right. >> but that's not really true. i think all the first ladies in my lifetime had many initiatives just like i have. i came into office, but when we came into -- it was totally different as you all remember. the pandemic, the insurrection. >> you had the place boarded up. >> yes. yes. fences everywhere, but i came in thinking that i wanted to work what i had always worked on, military families, education, community colleges, cancer, but then the pandemic was happening, and so i had to get to work and travel around the country, get shots in people's arms, get

schools opened, give people confidence that the vaccines were going to work. we had to get people back to work. so it was a whole -- i had to put everything aside that i had planned to do, and think of if you can think back to three years ago. i mean, think what we were dealing with. think of the mental health issues that still continue. >> our kids still from the pandemic. >> for sure. >> from social media, and they're still -- >> for sure. >> it is all dragged on. the concept of you going to work during such a critical time, i would love for you to share why that's a priority for you, and i know it's not about the money, but it's something for yourself, even maybe some joy. >> it's something for me, and, you know, i work so hard, you know, to -- i raised a family. i had three children. i went to school. i walked across that stage at 55 years old, women over 50. [ applause ]

>> that's so cool. that's amazing. >> and so, you know, teaching is just mine. it's who i am. it gives me joy. my students make me laugh. they make me look at life in different ways, and so i -- i love working. >> a lot has happened since our last 50 or 50 interview when you kicked off the lists for know your value in "forbes," especially in regards to women's rights. roe v. wade overturned, access to abortion health care, it's been banned in many states across the country, and it really feels like a lot of our hard won progress has been erased. >> it does. >> are you at all nervous, fearful, stressed about the next ten months? >> no. i feel confident. i feel confident -- i know that the campaign is going to be tough. >> it's brutal.

>> but i am confident we're going to win. [ applause ] >> we reached out to the know your value community. by the way, we've got hundreds of questions. i won't ask you hundreds of questions, but we got such an amazing response, and they wanted to ask you some. so emily roe on instagram, who do you think as the women who you believe in the future to lead our country? >> oh my gosh. look at the women in this audience. why not them, right? >> right. >> or i had -- i hosted women -- a girls hosted girls leading change, and i brought young girls to the white house. they had started all kinds of programs in their schools and their communities, you know, against violence. some were developing robotics programs. i mean, all kinds of things. so as i travel around this country, i see amazing young women doing amazing things. >> yeah. this is gina wood on linkedin.

what has been your most surprising and greatest joy serving? >> i think my greatest joy has really been the ability to travel around. i don't know. lift up people. i think, no matter whether it's celebrating teachers who, you know i love, or whether it's going to some disaster and people are just holding on tight because there's been a tornado or a fire and they just -- you know, all hope is lost, just trying to lift them up and give them hope. i think that's my greatest joy. >> so advice to your younger self, a little twist on that question, a 50-50 twist. i look at all the women in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s who are making lists around the

world and what they're doing, and i realize my advice to my younger self would have been to slow down and enjoy the moment, take some time off, you know, do what you want to do and let things happen as they happen instead of trying to check off a million things. >> i don't know. i kind of think the opposite. >> oh, oh, tell me. >> do everything. try everything. >> okay, girls, let's go. >> why not? why not? [ applause ] >> i agree. i think we're saying the same thing. do everything, but enjoy the moment. >> definitely enjoy the moment, of course, of course. >> you don't have to rush. there isn't a ticking clock. >> yeah. >> i do want to ask you for some advice for women who are very concerned about the future of our country, especially since we have women in this room who are going to grow up in a world without the rights that we had. >> yeah. >> we seem to be going in the

wrong direction. not only what is your hope or inspiration for them, but what can they do? >> there's so much they can do and so much they have to do. i mean, we have to start electing leaders to positions that will think the way that we think, that will want the things we want, roe v. wade, good education, universal preschool. we need child care for everybody at every level so people can work, you know. [ applause ] >> we have to fix the environment. i mean, there's so much we need to do. so find your passion, whatever that is, whatever you want to be involved with, and then go forward. even if you're working in another job or whatever, find the time to change, to create change because that's the only way we're going to get to where we want to be. >> did you think we would ever

be in an america where a woman is forced to carry -- >> no. >> -- a nonviable fetus? i mean, this is where we are. and so for women who are sort of in shock over this, what is your advice in terms of the immediate future? what can they do? >> elect joe biden. [ applause ] >> or get involved in politics? >> yes. i say to women everywhere, get involved. don't be complacent. if you want to make change, you're the one who has to do it. >> even in a small way, you can do something. >> yes, you can do something. don't take anything for granted. keep fighting for your freedoms. >> part of mika's interview with the first lady at the white house. you can watch the full event on

youtube at msnbc.com/mj. up next on "morning joe," we're going to be talking to the assistant democratic leader, jim clyburn, as he soon heads to his home state of north carolina. we'll be back in a moment. rolina we'll be back in a moment.

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donald trump showed off his new grasp on the american energy

policy. >> energy is so big, it's such a big deal, that when energy goes up, if you make doughnuts, hamburgers, anything you do, anything you do, it's all energy. >> he's right. he's right. with enough energy we can do everything we could possibly imagine from doughnuts to hamburgers. >> wow. welcome back to "morning joe" at 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. with us we have the chief white house correspondent for "the new york times" peter baker, msnbc host jen psaki and bc's katty kay is back. >> we're only three days until the iowa caucus, and nikki haley is in the second place for the first time.

donald trump is still leading with 54% support from likely caucusgoers. nikki haley is at 20% followed by ron desantis down at 13%. still a gap there. joining us now from iowa where it's currently 19 degrees and under a blizzard warning is senior political columnist from "politico." >> reporter: joe, i send advice for you only, my friend. >> i really appreciate it, jay. i'm glad somebody is. so fascinating. i know it's just one poll, but the latest poll does show nikki haley moving ahead. and as you know, in politics the polls are a snapshot, but they do show momentum. any feel on the ground of haley momentum? >> reporter: yeah. there's no question that in the sub primary, joe, the jai jayvee

primary, if you want to call it that, she's getting a good crowd and share of votes of monday. you talk privately to the trump campaign and they acknowledge she's now in second place. and i think the anticipation here in iowa is trump lands somewhere around 50, maybe a little below, and that nikki gets into the 20s. is it the mid-20s? high 20s? not totally clear, but that's where things are today. trump's going to hang a large margin on her. but she's clearly emerging as the runner-up which gives her the case of going to new hampshire where this is a head-to-head race and i should get out. >> if she gets in the 20s, does ron desantis get out? and secondly what does nikki

haley do to get close to the not above donald trump in new hampshire. >> reporter: i think she has to beat ron desantis decisively for second place. if she's at 27% and he's at 25%, he may try to stay in. if she's at 20% and he's at 16%, there may be a chance he'll get out of the race. going into new hampshire, she has to make the case, this is it, i have to go with the alternative. she's going to have to go after trump harder. this is going to be the call. does she want to be the nominee or vp. she has to shape her strategy on trump. that will dictate how aggressive she goes, what kind of language she uses. if she wants to go all the way, she has to. that will be the mark in the head-to-head race. >> let's go past new hampshire.

i think we all agree she could win there, but it's different than most of the other districts. she's losing in her home state of south carolina and in a lot of other states that will happen around then. so what is her pathway post-new hampshire even if she wins? >> reporter: not great. this is the problem with nikki haley's challenging trump is that the party has dramatically changed. trump has realigned the republican party. it's much more of a working-class party. if you look at the cross tabs of any poll, you don't have to be a political scientist or pollster to see the glaring, glaring, glaring trim, which is trump dominates all-comers with lower income, non-college graduates, and basically haley's base, guys, is the pre-trump era gop. in new hampshire, which is a more upscale secular independent state in which they can vote, which we'll hear a thousand

times in the next few days, she'll do really well. once she gets out of new hampshire and heads west, the party will look like the trump party, and it's hard to see where she'll see votes. >> jay is starting to lose feelings in his extremities now. we're going to give him the last question and see how he reacts in the most difficult of circumstances. >> jay, do you think if there's any chance it becomes a two-person rate, we see the two go at it or does he continue the strategy of ignoring her -- not ignoring her because he trashes her a lot, but does he engage her in a direct way? >> reporter: i think that's going to be a fascinating internal trump debate. if she does win in new hampshire, does trump say to his campaign staff, i thought you guys had this thing wired. you said no debates. now i lost the primary? i'm not going to listen to you. i'm going to totally debate her in south carolina. you know that.

you've seen that. that's the plausible knee-jerk reaction in a moment of anger where he would take on a debate. his advisers will try to talk him out of it, i'm sure, but i think he may be tempted to do its if he does lose new hampshire to her. it's more of a game of demography, and i think new hampshire could be a false dawn for her because it's hard to see where she could go beyond that. you guys well know the history of south carolina, it's much more of a conservative aligned state, and the new hampshire electorate doesn't dictate what the folks in south carolina do. so bush/mccain 2000, we've all seen that movie before. >> all right. his mouth is not working as effectively as it was a few minutes ago. the teeth freezing up. dr. dave, morning joe's chief medical correspondent tells me that hypothermia sets in in 1:45. jay mark, political's jonathan

martin, god bless you, sir. we hope to see you monday morning. >> reporter: thank you, joe. let's bring in right now assistant democratic leader and national co-chair for the biden campaign, congressman jim clyburn of north carolina. from the republican side to the democratic side, you know, jim, democrats, they like to whine, they like to complain, they like to say the end is coming near. i was going to say, i know you've talked to the biden people a lot. i'm talking to them a good bit right now. i'm not nervous. they're not worried. they know they've got to do some things and get moving out there -- >> sure. >> -- but they still think they've got the erbs on their side. what do you think? >> absolutely. i think we have the issues on our side, and i think we have the candidate. the vast majority of the american people will be comfortable with his service for the last three years, and i think they're going to be very comfortable throughout this year into the campaign, and the

issues -- they've got the issues and the candidate, so how can you lose? >> right. we saw a poll out of pennsylvania -- it's just one poll, but it showed that joe biden was three points ahead of donald trump. you go inside and you look at the cross-steps, and this is what's blowing me away. i've assumed since the rise of trump that the power comes from places like the villages in florida. it comes from older voters. they're the ones more set in their way. we're not saying that. and while everybody is freaking out about young voters running away from joe biden because of israel, they're going to go back to him. those old voters, though, those older voters, those over 65 voters, that's -- i would argue that's the big story. look at that. 60% to 37%. you know it and i know it. we don't advertise on radio

stations. right now they want to vote for joe biden. >> they do want to vote for joe biden because they feel him. they have been getting the benefits out of the inflation reduction act and the modifications to medicare that now allow for negotiation for medicare prices. they know now that no more than $2,000 a year they're going to have to give out of pocket to pay for their medical services cap on this, $35 a month. they feel that. and i think that what's going to happen within the next several weeks, young people are going to begin to feel what it's like. the announcement this morning, if you took out a loan for less than $12,000 and ten years later you're still paying on that loan, as of next month, all of

that debt is going to be eliminated. >> because of joe biden. >> because of joe biden. >> and because donald trump's people and the supreme court stopped him from going even further, but he still -- he got that done just like he got the wiping away of convictions for younger people who had marijuana convictions. nobody's talking about it, but that's another thing again that the press for the most part is completely ignored. >> that's right. we're going to be doing that. for the next four years, every two months, another 50,000 people that had income-based debt, another 25,000 with the public service loans, they are going to be eligible for the it toal total elimination of their debt. that's going to be too much. by the time they get out of the gym, that will be -- >> that's all joe biden. i mean that's all joe biden who has been pushing for this from

the very beginning. >> by the way, older people have been hit by the higher interest rates because they've probably paid off their mortgages by now. >> also stockmarket is at record-highs. 401(k)s are doing extraordinarily well. you hear donald trump saying i want the stockmarket to crash, i want the economy to crash. what they're also hearing is donald trump saying, i want your life savings and your retirement wiped out so i can get elected president. >> they may be mrm averse to the chaos too. >> obviously. >> jen, you spent the day at biden headquarters in delaware where you spoke with the communications director and the campaign manager and you asked them about how they're going to combat that issue of age. let's take a look. >> let me ask you about another topic that comes up. i get asked about this a lot. is the president's age. a lot of this in my view was driven by kind of right-winged efforts to make him seem old and

see nier, and that was never my experience. he's the age he is. but it still is an issue to combat, right? it pops in polls. it's something that comes up in focus groups. you, rob, were a part of -- i know not alone -- but flipping the dark brand of meme to make it more of a winner, probably to the anger of the people who are screaming, you know, let's go brandon at events. how do you combat this kind of ongoing attack on his age and these attacks and suggestions that he's not up for the job . >> the american people know joe biden's age. with that comes wisdom, experience, and judgment. that's why they voted for him in the first place. it's in stark contrast to everybody else on the other side particularly as it relates to donald trump. >> yeah. i think there's like three different things when we're tackling this. one, the dark brand works because, yes, it's funny, and, yes, it's sort of memey, but it

it's also based in truth. >> the aviators shooting out of them, that was my favorite. >> there are people supporting the president doing it themselves, that speaks to the core truth about the president's experience and ability to get stuff done. >> jen, they gave an answer. are you satisfied the answer they're giving is going to do what it takes between now and november to swage people's concerns? >> there are two factors that are in play here, one is that donald trump is going to be the nominee barring something crazy happening. he's three years younger than joe biden. let's start there. he's not exactly preparing to run a marathon, donald trump. the second one is what they just said. they need to figure out how to flip this into a strength, which is his experience, the years he spent working on foreign policy issues, the years he spent talking with leaders on capitol hill. they recognize this is a challenge. not that it's validating it, not

that anyone should be validating it, but i do think they have a lot of thoughts. if i could add one more thing when i had my communications with rob. when the president went out and gave these bold speeches, they were like, yes, we're ready to go, we're ready do this. a lot of the work they'ring down is traditional tactics like african american radio, which the president did when he was in south carolina. local memes which you don't necessarily see. rob told me that about 50% of the engagement on instagram is actually private because people trust their neighbors, they trust valued voices. it's not necessarily all public ads. so they have a big strategy. we'll all see if it works. we're going to follow it closely. i kind of spent some time with them to figures out what the tactics were. >> congressman, you said recently you were very concerned

-- that was your phrase -- about the turnout especially among younger voters. and you were with him in charleston on monday. i was with you on that trip. tell us about the energy gap or enthusiasm gap you've seen? what do you think explains that, and what should they do? are they doing enough? >> i think we're engaging in that amount the moment. we do know that voter suppression is well in this process, and that is what concerns me, whether or not we're going to do the things to overcome the suppression that has taken place. when you can only see a wall of information which i call misinformation out there and people are not getting the actual facts, then that's what concerns me. i think when we do whatever's necessary to break through that, that's what i'm getting in texas now from young people. i got this long text and i was shocked. i know it very well.

star football player, never thought he would be interested in politics, but now he's saying to me, i'm ready to go. get me engaged. this is one of the university of south carolina's best wide receivers ever, but he's now ready to use his skill on the ground for us because he's now getting engaged. that's a breakthrough and that's what's beginning to happen. >> that's great. you know, you talk to the biden campaign, and they'll say they're concerned about young voters, they need to bring them home. i think they will. i'm not so concerned about that. black voters, but especially younger black men. >> absolutely. >> and then younger hispanic men, which they were very concerned about in 2020 because younger hispanic men sort of like the trump bravado. younger black men, some younger black men did as well. so if you're going for the black vote, usually it's a go to the churches, and the churches are

great. it helps reach a large part of the black community, but younger black men can play such a critical role in this election. how does the biden campaign -- how do democrats reach younger black men? >> we are reaching them, and it's not going to be through either church. look. i was born and raised in the apostolate, so i know what it means to be raised in the faith community. but i know a public school teacher on the east side. i know how they engage young people as well. we're beginning to engage people to do that. we've got to remind these young people, the guy leading on the other side, that's the guy who told us who he was with the central park 5, and we're going to remind them of that. and we're going to remind them he's the first to discredit the first african american president

of the united states. he's the guy who looked into the camera in front of america and referred to the black american woman as a dog. this kind of lack of respect, we're going to remind them day in and day out who he is and what he is, and we should not do anything to allow him to get anywhere near the white house again. >> one quick question. we've seen barack obama more engaged, going in and talking to president biden, michelle obama talking now how she's kept awake at night worrying about donald trump winning the election. how important is it for the obamas to stay engaged throughout the entire election process? >> very, very much so. obama and michelle as well, they are symbols in the african american community like nothing else. i included never thought i would see an african american live in the white house as president of

the united states, and we've got to keep them engaged in this symbolically if nothing else. so i believe it's very important for barack obama, and when i sat down, i spent about two hours before the charleston meeting with the president and we talked about the things and the people that needed to be involved. he told me at that time that barack obama had told him he would be very, very active in this campaign, and i was very, very pleased to hear that, and to see the reports of his being engaged and to hear from michelle obama that she is engaged, that means a lot. if they're not engaged, these people who went out for them the way they did and be proud of them, they have to have

renaissance themselves. >> this is the first primary of the primary this time because president biden moved it from new hampshire. why have they spent so much time there? is there something they worry that could happen in terms of the primary because they don't seem to have a lot of competition, but they seem to be spending a lot of time there. >> take this from jim clyburn who raised his hand and said president biden will be president. would you go to south carolina? >> i think, come on, man. >> i've known joe biden for a long, long time and on a very personal level. he and i have had conversations i would take to the grave with me. i'm talking when he was vice president, we talked a lot. one of the things he's concerned about is anybody ever feeling he's taking it for granted. so he's in south carolina as often as he is because he wants

south carolinians to know and african americans to know he would be the last person on earth to take it for granted. he's going to be engaged in this contest just like he would be if he were in some other state. i'm not surprised that he's coming back. i'm not surprised he came back so soon. i'm glad he's doing that. you know what they say. he's always taking this for granted. you've seen the headlines. that's been the stuff in the south -- >> i never take you and south carolina for granted. we're going back to the thick of it here. >> you've got an open invitation. just make sure this time you pick up the check. >> oh, come on, jim. >> jim clyburn says joe biden will be president and so it came to pass. assistant campaign manager for the biden campaign fund.

thank you. coming up on "morning joe," the latest on the significant escalation in the middle east, the u.s. and allied forces are striking houthi rebels in yemen. we're joined next with new reporting on that story. joined w reporting on that story. diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by 50% and keep it low with 2 doses a year. common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, and chest cold. ask your doctor about twice-yearly leqvio. lower. longer. leqvio®

. this morning we've been following those strikes launcd at iranian-backed houthi targets in y, ma'amen yesterday by the united states and united kingdom with logistical support by the netherlands, australia, and bahrain. what did you learn from david cameron? >> we learned this is one of those moments when for just for a moment the light bulb gets switched on and you see where everybody stands. just to quickly go through it,

iran, turkey condemning the actions. the two countries carried out the action itself. there you see the alliance between two countries kind of as solid as ever. no sign of the french in this actual action to target the houthis, the chinese saying they want to see people being measured in their regions. they're kind of standing on the sidelines even though it is a lot of their trade that is being challenged by these attacks in the red sea. the russians and the iranians condemning -- the iranians, of course, back the houthis. so when i spoke to david cameron, i wanted to ask him first of all why this had to happen. he says it's a redline. we've seen through history, right, that if you have a redline and they cross it and you don't do something, david kamg ron says, then it comes back to bite you. the question, too, is whether or not the action that the uk and

the u.s. has taken will actually have an impact. they say they hit munition depos and such with the houthis. will that actually prevent the houthis from continuing to carry out these attacks? take a listen. >> when you have attack after attack even though you've had warning after warning, ultimately this military action was necessary. i think it was proportionate, it was legal, and sends a clear message to the houthis and iran as well. >> will it prevent the houthis from continuing to target commercial ships in the red sea? >> obviously it sends a clear message to the houthis that we're prepared to act in self-defense in this way. >> are they preventing -- >> obviously these attacks will degrade their capability, that's important, and we'll get the assessment later today about exactly how much of that has been done, but the fact is since the 19th of november, there have been 26 attacks. we've tried warnings.

we've had the security council cancel the resolution. i spoke with the minister and warning after warning has been given, and yet the attacks have continued. >> i asked him whether we're going to see more attacks, and he says if necessary we'll do that. that underscores one of the many issues surrounding the issues here. the houthis have said they'll take revenge if you like. they're vowing to continue to carry out these attacks, which they say are in support of hamas, david cameron saying this is completely separate from the gaza situation. so now we're in a situation where if the houthis carry out more attacks, then what is the u.s. and uk going to do, and are we in kind of a downward spiral? one of the things to note, which i think is really interesting, and it is about what is happening in gaza and in the region is putting countries away from their strategic goals. the u.s.'s aim is to pull away

from the middle east and concentrate on china. what's happening right now with houthis and others in the region is the u.s. is getting pulled back in again. iran wants to push the u.s. out of the middle east, and what its proxies are doing is, again, putting the u.s. into the middle east. so it's interesting that really for the u.s. and for iran in many ways you could view this as spiralling and not going in the direction that ostensibly either side -- and this is a proxy war in many ways between iran and the u.s., for either side as she wants. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you very much. it's so interesting, that geopolitical dance that's taking place. barack obama tried that pivot to asia, right? didn't work out for them so well either. the middle east keeps sucking the u.s. back. this has an impact on the economy. these boats now have to go all the way around africa and the horn of africa to get to europe

and to america. that does jack up the price of goods and doesn't help with our inflation numbers. >> we've had one foreign policy expert after another complaining about the fact that the u.s. is too focused on the middle east. we need to pivot to asia. you saw the trump administration saying, oh, we're going to do a peace deal in the middle east with all of these countries. we're going to pay them off. we know what they need, we know what they want, and we're going to push the palestinian cause to the side, we're just going to ignore it, screw them. these sunni arabs hate them anymore, and we'll see what happens. you know, you can't escape history. this has been an ongoing wound since 1948. settlers can't go in and make matters worse. president biden does understand this. they're going to have to have a two-state solution. until we do, this continues. >> that's right. look, i've been in two white houses where there have been

attempts to pivot to asia for good reason, right? for good reason. it's incredibly challenging because there's two contradictory objectives here if you're president biden, if you're jake sullivan, if you're anyone in the pentagon. one is to respond, right, when, you know, these boats are attacked, when u.s. forces are attacked. that is important to show the power of the united states. the other is to de-escalate in the middle east so you can pivot to asia and pivot to other priorities, and they conflict, and that is a huge challenge. and the question here, and peter and i were talking about this earlier is will this de-escalate? will it escalate? we don't know. in the past there have been moments where strikes have de-escalated. obviously that's the goal. but we don't know. >> that's exactly what joe biden didn't want to happen. of course, his main goal on october 7th, of course, other than being outraged on the terror attack on israel and the right to respond was to avoid the larger war, spreading across the region.

hezbollah was deterred maybe by the advance of the two carrier groups, but he did not want to respond in the way he had to respond or felt he had to respond last night because he didn't want this to turn into a regional war. we'll see whether that happens. as jen said, we don't know whether this will deter future attacks or expand and begin an escalatory cycle the united states has been trying to avoid. >> they're doing two things at once right now. they understand that i have the possibility of three regional wars. they've got the possibility of the regional war in the middle east, the possibility of a -- they've got a regional war going on in central eastern europe and the war with taiwan and china, if they decide to act. they're doing two things at once. they know they need to de-escalate. they need to bring ukraine's and russia's war to an end, they need to avoid iran being drawn in, but that also requires toughness. in this case, they can't allow houthi rebels and iranian proxies to kill americans.

that's just going to encourage them. so they have to escalate to de-escalate. >> it's a little contradictory. >> it's the same thing with ukraine. why are they feeling the urgency to get the republicans aligned with ukraine? because they have putin in a position right now where he's ready to deal, but he's not going to deal if the united states shows a weakness for ukraine. if we're strong, if europe's strong. they need the weapons, they need to spend more money. they need to escalate. and, again, they think that puts them in a more powerful position when they go to the table with putin trying to negotiate an end to this. >> i had an interesting conversation with senator kaine who came back from the middle east. he said in a way hamas and israel are doing the same thing. they're waiting for the west to lose interest, which they will, and for american politics to eat itself. and they're both on the same course.

>> and with good reason. >> with good reason. stay tuned on this. coming up at the top of the hour ana cabrera will speak live with john kirby about all of these attacks. and coming up on the "morning joe," trump is teaming up with a type of evangelical voter. coming up, we're joined by our next guest who will explain. jor next guest who will explain. mounjaro helps your body regulate blood sugar and can help you eat less food. 3 out of 4 people reached an a1c of less than 7%. plus people lost up to 25 pounds. mounjaro is not for people with type 1 diabetes or children. don't take mounjaro if you're allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop mounjaro and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, vision changes, or diabetic retinopathy. serious side effects may include pancreatitis and gallbladder problems.

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(we did it) start today at godaddy.com if you're catholic, why would you vote for a democrat? i don't know what's going on with the catholics, but they're really being persecuted. why would you vote for biden and why would you vote for a democrat? the house judiciary committee proves that the fbi targeted catholics as domestic terrorists, do you believe this? and evangelicals will not be far behind. >> so that didn't actually happen. donald trump baselessly accusing the biden administration last month of targeting catholics for

religious persecution and warning that evangelicals will be next. joining us now at the table, national correspondent covering religion, faith, and values for "the new york times," ruth graham. she's the coauthor of the new piece entitled "trump is connecting with a different type of evangelical voter." and here'shat you wrote, ruth. no republican has had a closer or more counterintuitive relationship with evangelicals than mr. trump, the twice-divorced casino magnate made little pretense of being particularly religious bor the presidency. the evangelical support is often described as a loing transactional one. they would advance the other groups top priorities but religious scholars suggest another explanation. evangelicals are not exactly w they used to be.

being evangelica one suggested regular church attendance, focus on salvation and conversion and strongly held views on views such as abortion. today, though, it's used to describe a cultural political identity, one that christians have considered persecuted priority and mr. trump lose large. it's not your evangelical view, joe. >> no. i grew up in the church. this piece is remarkable. there are so many of us who had that background, who went to church three times a week, you know, it was the gospels. you learned the gospels, you followed the gospels. if you send, you know, at the center point of it was you ask for forgiveness. you were humble and you forgave others. donald trump's a guy who when asked in 2016 have you ever asked god for forgiveness, he said, no, i have no need to.

asked his favorite book of the bible, he said, i like all of them. asked if he's more of a new testament or old testament guy and he says i like them both. i'd asked for some time how have my friends moved in this direction? well, a lot of people have picked up as you said, the name, evangelical, as a cultural marker. they don't know about the bible. i've talked to a lot of them. they're completely ignorant about the bible. they don't go to church. this name evangelical now, it's just a cultural marker. >> it's really in flux. the origin of the story was realizing, you know, we've been talking and thinking about the evangelical vote for decades as the core republican base and we think we know what it means, that it correlates with regular church attendance, certain set of theological and spiritual ideas that you alluded to, but,

in fact, there are big changes happening around the borders of that definition of the word evangelical and trump is an important figure in that, so there's really been a dramatic decline of church-going. that's been a slide that's been happening over decades but has really accelerated. in recent years, among republicans in particular. so now there's a republican party where less than half of the republican voters say they've attended church in the last month or at least once a month. so that's a big shift. and then you have trump in the center of this who, you know, he doesn't attend church regularly. he doesn't necessarily speak the language fluently, but he's held evangelicals and christians more brotdly up as this persecuted group and he's standing in the breach defending them. so when i talk to self-identified evangelical voters, which is hole pollsters capture all of this, which is self-identification, a lot of them don't go do to church and don't speak the language

particularly fluidly, but carry it as a marker of self-identification, and a lot of them see trump for what he is. you know, they might say, well, he prays or he sometimes goes to church or he's a man of faith, but the most important thing is the way they see him kind of as a defender of their values and their priorities and their identity. >> in the end it's a cultural identity, not a religious identity. it's a political identity, not a religious identity. you can go on and on on that. >> that's right. >> it's interesting in '16 there were some polls, i think, that evangelical voters who went to church more were less likely to vote for donald trump, but those, again, using the name as a cultural or political identity essentially. i want to go back to something we talked about yesterday, and it's just so remarkable, ruth. abortion. when i was in high school, southern baptist convention was pro-choice, and they had one

resolution after another resolution saying they were pro-choice. and it's so interesting in 1979 richard vigry and paul why rick and jerry falwell decided that they were going to do anything they could to beat the southern baptist democrat in the white house, so they turned abortion not only into a political issue but a religious issue. why am i bringing this up? i think this really was the beginning of it where they literally found an issue, they dragged it into the church, and they said this is now going to be the centerpiece of what defines christianity. and i've seen it through the years. it's kind of bizarre being in high school, knowing your church is pro-choice, and the southern baptist convention was pro-choice, and now when i said this on tv a couple of months ago, i had a friend call me up going, that's the gravest of sins.

why are you saying that? it's like, dude, read the bible. it's not there. and yet they've redefined what it means to be a christian. >> yeah. i mean that was a big -- now that has been a central piece of evangelical politics for 40-plus years now. that was a shift that happened in the sort of post-roe moment. catholics had been leading the pro-life movement before that, but, yes, i mean politics have been deeply interwoven with, you know, sort of the evangelical church experience and evangelicalism in america for a long time now, so it makes it all the more interesting and vital to see how is this shifting now in the trump era. >> ruth, just to build off of that a little bit. i mean the thing with trump is everything is teflon. nothing seems to impact him, including, it seems, with the evangelical community.

on abortion, he has kind of taken -- bragged, of course, about confirming these three supreme court justices on one side and on the o', he seems to take kind of a pointed view that's far more leaning toward the moderate view than other candidates in the field. my question is does any of this impact him at all or they just don't really care? >> well, so one important piece of this idea of the sort of shifting evangelical vote is a lot of these cultural christians don't place abortion at the top of their list. so when my colleague charlie and i were talking to voters in iowa that sort of fit this description, they were saying, you know, sure, yes, i'm evangelical, i vote on biblical issues, but then when you drill down, they're talking about building the wall, border security, immigration more broadly, they're talking about the economy, and they really weren't bringing up abortion as the top priority for them.

so i think these changes are going to have implications for the party and sort of what policies -- you know, i think trump also has an instinct for that. he has said abortion is, you know, sort of a loser of an issue in a way, right? so he has like a real feel for the direction this is flowing in, and it's become a really complicated reason for republicans for that reason. >> yeah. not easy for those evangelicals who aren't trump supporters. ruth graham, thank you so much for joining us on such an interesting conversation. our next guest started out her journalism career in the world of far right media from the daily media to breitbart. she shares those experiences in her new book entitled "the maga diaries, my surreal adventures inside the right wing and how i got out," and the author tina

nguyen joins us right now. >> i love reads your dispatches from the world and the right because they always read like someone who actually understands the thinking. it's great. it's great reporting because like you said, you've been there, you've done that. it's kind of like the conversation we've had about the evangelical church. talk about the journey and talk about the book and talk about what you've learned through the years. >> the reason i wrote this book in the first place is because of that thing you first post, how is it you're good at covering the movement? the moment i tell them i actually came from the movement, they're like, you're like a woman of color and your parents are immigrants? how did you get there? and the more i dug into it the more i realized it was a combination of being in that immigrant environment, not knowing how american society

worked, and what it took to establish yourself and get a career and a massive love of the founding fathers as a kid growing up in boston, but the moment i found this school called clair monlt mckenna, i noticed there were research institutions involved that would literally study the founding fathers for a living and pay me for it and give me a career in it, i was like, oh, yeah, that sounds great, let's do it. and from that you start -- i started going down this weird path of doors opening to me. people who were powerful were t path of doors opening to me. people who were powerful reaching out to me, oh, my god, you see talented. let's give you all these internships in journalism, let's become your official mentor. let's connect you with jobs. part of it was me wanting to get

ahead. the other half was like there's a community of like-minded people who are part of it and want to achieve the same goals of liberty and freedom of free markets, freedom of speech. at a certain point, though, it got to a barrier where i was like, okay, you're asking me to do journalism, but you want me to take it out of the context of something that would make it -- that would like present the truth. >> right. >> i literally had an editor at one point who at this publication called "the colorado observer" who asked me to write all these negative pieces about colorado congressmen, and i was like, wait, the thing that you're accusing this guy of was also done by a republican, and he goes, well, the thing is like everyone writes about the republican. we have to write about the democrat, and then i looked into his background and realized that he worked for a koch brothers network. never had a job in journalism at all. >> right. >> that was the moment i left.

>> and so you get -- you got a pretty amazing story. your parents were immigrants. they fled saigon, ended up in boston. i guess that is a question for a lot of people, they say, well, how do you get involved being an immigrant in this sort of brand of politics or that sort of brand, what i've always found if you want to find people who love america, who believe in the american dream, who are like all in, talk to an immigrant. >> oh. >> they've come here. that's why when a lot of people are like -- why are immigrants, why are they becoming republicans? because republicans brand it much better. >> oh, my god, yeah. >> the flag. >> vietnamese americans are like the most maga trump supporters you will ever find out there. i was at the january 6th riots full of south vietnamese flags,

and the immigrants that do come to america these days are escaping persecution, instability in their own countries, but they directly attach it to the idea of socialism. and so when they see socialism in the democratic party trying to take over america, they go, like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, we escaped that back then. we do not want this. so vietnamese americans, cuban americans, venezuelans, chinese americans who are -- >> nicaraguans. >> freaked out about the ccp. >> yeah. so i wanted to ask you about the right wing media ecosystem because it's so misunderstood, especially in the democratic party and by so many, it's like i don't know, it's a big black hole out there. and obviously it's quite effective in reaching people and getting people engaged. so this week, for example, trump did this fox town hall. he was kind of normal trump in that fox town hall, right? but then he's in the courtroom and he's yelling like a maniac. my assumption is that yelling like a maniac in the courtroom

is that's for the right wing media ecosystem. fox is for the normy people-ish. what should they know about how the ecosystem and how trump's -- what he's saying in the courtroom is like distributed and impacting and engaging the right wing? >> there's a concept i talk about called the infinite fringe. the democrats always believe it's an ecosystem, like this walled garden where there is a person at the top who says this is conservative and this is republican. this is not. but with the rise of the internet, there is no ability for these guys to control who is considered conservative or not. you fire them. they run off to another online platform, bring their followers along with them. if they start a media outlet and they fire someone, that person can keep going on and on and on and on. and the trump campaign's insight is that there are so many of

these tiny, tiny, tiny groups but in the aggregate it is powerful and it reaches a massive audience. so i remember during the first press briefing of the trump administration sean spicer was bringing in these guys from gateway pundit, breitbart, all of these tiny blogs that had never had access to the press room before but now they were just like unfettered. it's so easy to engage them too. it's like here's a video clip. here's a tweet. here's a little tiny thing. >> and they just use it. >> exactly. >> you wonder what would have happened if there hadn't been social media, right? >> it's just like the site i always love talking about because it's so crazy. my friends will send me things from epic times, i'm like you do understand that's a chinese religious cult. they tried to be a left wing chinese religious cult. it didn't work, so they became a right wing chinese religious cult, and they are using you as

a way to spread their message in america. but it is -- but you can write anything on that. they accept anything. no editors. i know because i know a guy who was bragging about being in there. he just wrote it, sent it in. it's out there. pretty soon my friends will be emailing me going is it true that? >> must be true, i read it on the internet. the new book "the maga diaries" goes on sale next tuesday. that does it for us this morning on "morning joe." ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a short break. happy weekend, everybody. ♪ i was on the outside ♪ ♪♪ a once-daily td treatment for adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds—

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right now on "ana cabrera reports," breaking news in the middle